Ande Lyons is a 4x Business Founder, Startup champion, Host of the New England Podcasters Group, and the former Co-host of Boston’s Founders Live Pitch event.

Ande hosts the new proaging podcast “Don’t Be Caged By Your Age” where she challenges societal and internalized ageism and empowers folks to thrive after 65. She is passionate about shattering ageism everywhere.

When I turned 66 and I have this great sign right here. I took a picture of me holding the route 66 sign. And for those of you in the US, you know that's a very popular route through our country, goes from Chicago all the way down to LA. I held that up and I came out. It was August of 22 and I said, I've got to just put it out there my age. But when you look at the photo of me, because it was my first time admitting my age to a very youth centered ecosystem, but also to a very youth centered culture and society that we live in, the look of my face, really, it clearly says, Will you still love me now that I'm 66

Welcome to the my fourth act podcast. I'm your host, Achim Nowak, and I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected lives. If you like what you hear, please subscribe on any major podcast platform so you won't miss a single one of my inspiring guests, and please consider posting an appreciative review. Let's get started. I am delighted to welcome Andy Lyons back to the my fourth act podcast. Andy is a serial business founder, a startup champion, host of the New England podcasters group and the former co host of Boston's founders live pitch event. Andy hosts the new Pro aging podcast, don't be caged by your age, where she challenges societal and internalized ageism and empowers folks to thrive after 65 she is passionate about shattering ageism everywhere. Hello, Andy,

I came. Thank you so much for having me back. I am always delighted and honored and grateful to spend time with you.

I am grateful that we know each other, that we can talk again. First question on my mind, because we recorded a podcast, I think it's a couple years ago, yeah, and I remember asking you at that time if it was okay to say how old you are. And you gave me a cute and coy answer, but it was clear to me, I better not state publicly how old you are at that time right now, you ferociously state how old you are. So how did you get from there to here? What happened?

Oh my gosh. And may I just say, not just admitting one's age, but declaring one's age out loud and proud is so liberating. It's one of the best things I've done. And so what was happening for me was that as a four times founder, and then a global startup founder mentor for eight years, and then, as you mentioned, co host for three years of downtown Boston pitch event called founders live every month, we had five founders pitching their value prop. I would watch the crowd, and I was always amazed that my biggest fans in the crowd, the ones that couldn't wait to be with me and told me I was the most exciting person in the room. They were under the age of 30. I could be their grandmother easily. And I noticed that I was like, wow, that's interesting. And then, as we every month, the pitches would happen, investors and mentors that we had as a panel. Judging panel would tell the founders, now you really need to explain your value prop as if you were telling your grandmother, not, by the way, listeners, grandfather, always grandmother, which is called, yeah, gendered ageism. And so, of course, after decades of sexism in the workplace, now I'm dealing with gendered ageism like, what the heck? And I would want to jump up and say, excuse me, everybody in the room. You do realize we've been my generation has been coding since the 1970s and building tech companies since the 1970s so don't act like this generation has never heard of technology. Okay, a lot of what you're seeing today is because the boomer generation got it going and rolling. So I noticed that, and I turned 66 and I have this great sign right here. I took a picture of me holding the route 66 sign. And for those of you in the US, you know that's a very popular route through our country. Goes from Chicago. All the way down to LA. I held that up and came out. It was August of 2022 and I said, I've got to just put it out there my age. But when you look at the photo of me, because it was my first time admitting my age to a very youth centered ecosystem, the startup ecosystem, but also to a very youth centered culture and society that we live in. The look of my face, really, it clearly says, Will you still love me now that I'm 66 what happened with that post is I talked about ageism, and I talked about all the things about thriving after 65 and the post on LinkedIn went viral, and the comments were so profound, and it was what planted the seed for Don't be caged by your age. I've been podcasting Since 2012 live streaming Since 2012 but this feeling of wanting to talk about what, just because the clock strikes midnight on a milestone age, you gotta hang up the everything and give up. And in my article, Akim, I even talked about that. It starts off with when I turned 50. I thought that was it for my entrepreneurial days, it was a young person's game. Yeah. 16 years later, I'd already done two more businesses.

The interesting part of that, if we can drill down, both you and I look younger than we are, and there's this whole thing that people play with the passing for being younger, which is a whole other game and the coming out. And I love that you use that phrase because it is a coming out, because people have another perception on age. It's their perceptions projected onto us. You describe coming out in front of that group. But what within you? I still think something within your hand to say, this is the time to do it now, which also means letting go the attachment of passing for younger,

yeah, and I don't get facials. I don't get, you know, I am what I am. People see me in person. They see my barnacles, brown spots, wrinkles, everything. What compelled me is that, yes, I have a enthusiastic, passionate nature, yeah. And I think that's what really passes me off for looking younger, perhaps being younger people, assuming I'm in my 50s, yeah. But I wanted to start the reframing. There was something inside of me that said it's time to be part of this movement. But also all my businesses have been prompts in my life. It was never, none of my businesses did I go I want to go and do this, or I want to grow up and do this. All my businesses came to me and I thought, Oh, well, that's an interesting idea. That's a problem that needs solving. When this happened, it wasn't so much that I wanted to start talking about ageism. It first started with my wanting to leave the startup ecosystem and focus on podcasting. I don't know if anybody listening is familiar with ikagai, right, but ikagai is what I live for. And that's a that's i, k, I, G, A, I, and it's a Japanese charm for then picture the Venn diagram. One big circle is your passion, what you love. Another big circle that's connecting is your vocation, what you're good at, your another circle is your mission, what the world needs. And then the fourth circle is your profession. What can you get paid for? Right? I've always been led by that in my businesses. But most importantly, I've always been a problem solver, which really is the number one ingredient of any good founder, and the ones that stay in the game year after year, I first said, I'm just going to dive into podcasting and Akeem, your probing question is so important. As we age, it's important to take inventory of who you want to be. And it's not about retiring. It's about rewiring. How do you want to be in the world? How do you want to manage your energy portfolio? Right? What you have the energy for? We're all faced with different physical challenges, mental challenges. How do you still connect with others? Be visible, be actualized, you know, tap in to your passion and fuel that as you age. I wanted to get into podcasting because I find podcasters fascinating people to hang out with, and it's something I had come to truly love over a 12 year. Period. And so that happened first, and then I did a quick little 30 episode called your ink story podcast to tell the stories about people's tattoos, because I was so desperate for an opportunity to talk about what connects us versus what divides us. And tattoos, body ink, are always the stories of humanity. I knew, though, that by early 2024 it was time to launch jumpy cage by your age. And I tested it because in the podcast world, that's a long title. And I tested it for several months, and everybody's eyes lit up. So I said, Okay, I'm just gonna have to deal with the long title, because everybody gets it. You

just said a bunch of beautiful things. One thing I want to spend some more time on as a serial entrepreneur, what I've heard is that you are, you are led by things that emerge, that are important, that meet your ikigai, and maybe what differentiates you from other people. You actually then go for it and do it and execute, which is beautiful part of aging you talk beautifully about reflection is, in my opinion, being mindful of our passions can change. Will change us observing that they want to change without judgment. Because I think we have so much judgment that we internalize about what we should be doing, what it should look like. How have you find the courage to just go and run with the next thing you described a little bit with your podcast, which, by the way, I because I've given podcasting in a way for 12 years. So it's just the next evolution. It's not new. But how do you decide? Okay, this is what God, universe, higher power. Once we do today, let me commit to it. Let me run with it. You

know, that's such a good question, because this is how I had an aha moment. You sent me some questions ahead of time, just thought provoking questions. And I saw for the first time in my 68 years, a through line through my life that I hadn't really seen before. And it takes me back to when I was a teenager, when I was 15. I've been skiing since I was practically born, and I loved racing, so we had a group of maybe 10 of us that would participate in our region. A lot of other high schools had bonafide ski teams. We just had a bunch of scraggler skiers who wanted to play as the season started. This is my sophomore year in high school. I just was like, why do these other high schools all have like, a bus that takes everybody to the races? They have adults. We're just getting our parents to drive us and or, if somebody has a license, they're taking us to the hills for the races. And so I learned about the Merrimack Valley skied League, and I got involved, and I said to the adults at the table, I don't understand why we don't have a team for the ski team. I mean, why isn't this a letter earning varsity sport? And they said, Wow, do you want to make that happen? I was like, Absolutely. What do I do? By the next year, when I turned our junior year, we had a varsity ski team, and when I graduated, I got a letter for being captain of the ski team. There's something intrinsically inside me that says, here's the problem. I love solving problems. Let's go solve it. And the aha moment I had a Keem was, I've always told myself this story, that I'm a reluctant entrepreneur, that when, after I earned my MBA in 1989 I went into banking for three years, not because I was a fit, because I wanted to learn all of that, but it wasn't a fit. I had circumstances that happen that I thought, well, I don't think I'll be ever be able to work for somebody again. I guess I'm going to have to have my own business. And I always felt like that was reluctant, instead of saying, No, it's my nature. It's my nature to quickly see and identify a problem that not only can I solve or find a way to solve, but that people want solved and they'll pay for it. I mean, that's what a minimum viable product of value proposition is, right? Is those three ingredients. And it just dawned on me what was going through your question like, Oh, there's the true threat. I've always been this person,

so if I can maybe see if you and I can connect a few more dots. When I first met you, you had a adventure around bringing back desire. Yes, baby, loved it. You were very outspoken. You did some really cool stuff. But in my mind, that also connects to. To pro aging, aging desire as we age. So that was an earlier iteration of what Andy was doing. But help us understand, how does that relate to being a pro aging person in the world?

Well, let's talk about self awareness, right? So I created bring back desire to help heterosexual women in long term relationships, stay tuned in and turned on. Get out of their head and get back into bed. Okay? Lots of juicy, fun, orgasmic conversations. Thank

you for bringing that into the conversation.

But again, it's tapping into something people don't want to talk about right? And being willing to put my face a mother of two young sons at the time on YouTube, you can go to the bring back to Sarah YouTube channel and see me yapping away about all the 21 plus topics for finding out what tune turns you on as a woman, knowing how to ask those questions. So having the courage to do something that someone hasn't done before is, I think, innate in me. It definitely is in my DNA, if you go into ancestry.com the same thing about being willing to talk about what is your sexual desire. What does that look like? It's the same thing with talking about, how do you want to live in your Renaissance years? That's what we're calling the 60 to 8055, to 80. That period. It's no longer go get warehoused somewhere. We don't want to hear about you. It's the willingness to age out loud, to talk about having more desire, that ambition is ageless, that we are not horses. We do not go out to the pasture just because we've turned 65 just because corporations decide they are no longer going to invest in you after the age of 50, that you're going to become permafrost until you retire. What I focus on though Akeem, because institutional ageism is out there, societies ageism is out there, but where we really run up against the wall is the ageism that internalized ageism that we have. And let me tell you, ageism is a prejudice against your future self. Yeah, and ageism is one of the only societally accepted discriminations out there. And so it feels wonderful to belong to this new movement, this pro aging movement, where people are showing what they're doing. And I have to tell you, Achim, I am so inspired by my guest, because you have to be, for the most part, 65 plus to be on my show. It's like reversed ageism, maybe. But I card people because I want that representation there. I want people to see the excitement and joy in these 70 and 80 year olds. And I'm hoping to get some 90 year olds too on the podcast, see what they're doing, oh my gosh. And they're saying, this is the best time of my life, especially the women, because they're no longer having to care for others.

Now you we are recording this on video, and there's this wonderful slogan behind you at the base of the land, and it has so the colors of the rainbow on it, and it says aging sideways. And I'm curious about that. Obviously, it's there with intention. But what does aging sideways mean to you? Andy,

well, I just interviewed the author of this book, 72 year old social gerontologist Jeanette liardi, we talked about why she chose aging sideways, because when you use your beautiful brain in different ways, you're going to go left, right, upside down. You're not going to go in that linear pathway straight into the grave. The beauty of the conversation with Jeanette is learning about our brain, that our brain doesn't hit its peak until we're 57 there's this membrane between the lobes that finally comes together, and now we have this whole brain. And this is why corporations are better off when they have the intergenerational employees, when they have folks who are the older brains who can say yes, but and, and and all of that, and the younger brain saying yes, let's try this. Yes. Let's do this. It's so wonderful, and so the aging sideways, get off that traditional path and really understand that we've been given this message that we are no longer worthy. We are going to start failing. For me, one of the great explanations that Jeanette have, because I go to retrieve something and I can't find it, I go, oh gosh, here we go. Memory loss, dementia. And I often say to people, would you please refresh my browser for me? But she said, Oh no, Andy, what happens is, when you're asked a question and you're 30 or 40 years old, you've got, like, maybe 100,000 books in your library, right? In documents. When you're our age, it's like the Library of Congress in there. It is going to take you a while to find that piece of information, because you have taken in so much for decades. There's this whole reframing we talked about all the over the hill jokes, right? Well, let's talk about, what does it mean to climb that hill, how we have to switch the language so aging sideways is being adventurous, is being willing to dissolve those ageist beliefs. Because especially our generation, the boomers, really when folks retired, they did look old. They look beat up. They look tired, they looked hunched over. I interviewed an actress. She goes boy when I auditioned for roles because she's over the age of 60. We all all the other actors. We bring in our gray wigs, our white wigs, we put them on, we audition. We have our old cardigans. We do the hunch and then we come out, we're back in our snazzy outfits and our colored hair, and we're off and running. This is because society has taken this beautiful generations of talent and decided we're going to waste that we're going to say, you're not meaningful, and we really don't care what you have to say. And the pro aging movement is like, Excuse me, I don't think so. Every day, putting out the word about aging being good, taking back that word senior, instead of saying the senior tsunami, which is what you hear, is like, Oh, they're going to waste all the Medicare and and holding onto their houses too long, etc. Think of it as the silver reservoir, right? We have a body of wonderful people in their beautiful brains.

Now, you and I, my sense is already similar in the sense that we are risk takers, we are adventurous. I've had multiple acts in my life, and I am so aligned with pro aging, as you know, let's talk for a moment. However, because I think there may be people who genuinely aren't that adventurous, and it doesn't mean that they have internalized negative thoughts about aging. But, you know, I just moved to Portugal, and not everybody wants to move to Portugal. So, so not everybody wants to do all those things, but it can be hard to find out what aging authentically looks like for you without societal pressures, because you look at the bachelorette in order to the golden bachelor TV shows, that's a whole other image. The pressure of looking hot. You know, it all gets exacerbated. That's a whole other you could say it's positive, or you could go, Oh my god. How do we find our authentic aging journey without societal standards around us?

Well, let's think about this statistic, seven out of 10 pre retirees have no interest in stopping working. Yeah. So you don't have to be running out and changing the world and being a social activist, building a business or anything like that, starting something new, becoming a model, but you may just want to have the simple, authentic opportunity to continue working, maybe not at a heavy 40 to 50 hour shift, right? But as you age, your brain can get things done a lot faster. You're not making the mistakes that a 30 and 40 year old will be making, so you can easily get your work done in 25 hours a week, 30 hours at the most, having folks think, Oh, well, I'm feel fine in my skin, and I'm okay with the fact that I'm aging, but there's still going to be a constraint, as we really start seeing with the white men in their late 50s and early 60s now, going, What do you mean? I'm getting age discrimination. I'm like, Hey, welcome to the party, finally. So we'll probably see a lot more change happen as a result. But it's just the freedom that. To be able to continue working, be part of a team, something that you love doing as an employee. And what happens? And here's this, another statistic in 2021 the World Health Organization declared that retirement had become an epidemic that was costing societies billions of dollars. People had been indoctrinated to work, work, work, work, save, save, save, do all the things, whatever, but they were going to retire and wow. And of course, all the messaging you get from advertisers is as you're going to go sailing, you're going to spend time with your grandchildren, you're going to go play golf every day, all the things, right? Well, three months of all of that, and people are sitting there going, Yeah, I'm bored. This isn't for me. And some don't ever get up off the couch again, which means their health declines, their brain declines. All sorts of things start happening in America, in Canada, UK, Australia, you're seeing societies that are just going downhill because institutional ageism. They think you're done at a certain age, time for you to move on. So part of what I do on the podcast is to share resources ideas. How can you reinvent yourself. How can you rewire yourself? Because based on what we're seeing, if you're retiring at 6065 you could easily have another 20 to 30 years. What are you going to do with those years? And the best book to read is called don't retire, rewire

great title. I want to bring it to you Andy, because in my experience, anyway, it's when we move on to one thing, especially as we age. It often means letting go some other stuff that we are maybe attached to, or things that we're very good at. People tell us something we're good at, but, but we don't want to do anymore, or maybe we've been there, done that. What are some things that you are moving on from that you go, yeah, I've done that. I don't want to do that anymore as I age. Oh,

yeah, I have no interest in startups. It's just like, No, I don't, you know, and I was in it, you were decades and as a mentor for eight years. I mean, it's the reason I unwound, bring back desire and start focusing on startup life, because I kept seeing such horrible advice given online to folks. I said, I've got to fix this. So I was totally okay with that. But my intention as I entered 2024 were two things and something that can be very difficult as you age, friendship, aligned friendship. How do I build community? How do I find community? I don't go to church. I actually need a different level of stimulation. And when you get older, you become very clear that time is your biggest asset and most finite resource and most valuable currency. How you spend your time becomes real important and who you spend your time with. So it's another thing. Why I love podcasting. I love the conversations with podcast hosts. So not only did I launch, don't be caged by your age, in March of 2024, I noticed there was a hole in the market here in the New England region for podcasters, there was no support. We all went to our we have podfest, which is the biggest and best podcast event in January every year for indie podcasters. And then we have the big industry podcast event called Podcast Movement, which is always in August. But in between, what are you going to do? And there are pockets around the country where podcasters were having community moments and supporting each other. And I thought, Okay, I want to start one here in New England. Because, as you know, the New England states, you can go to all six of them in a day. So I came up with the idea. Had a first like anybody else interested, Zoom call. And in that Zoom call, one of the people said, Hey, I got the ideal place to have it, and it was a state of the art TV and podcast studio location in a town that was right off of a major highway here in Massachusetts, easy to get to on. They couldn't they were so delighted to host us, and I knew it had to be in person. I'm done with the online connections. Sorry, everybody, there are conversations that you have in person that cannot be duplicated online. There's nothing better than looking someone in the eye and having a handshake and a hug and a wonderful connection and conversation. We'd like to say, Oh. Like to go find a community. Well, I encourage folks, if you can't find that community, create it. Yes, I've had all these businesses and I've done all these things, but I will tell you I am the number one trophy holding person who says to herself always, what if you throw a party and no one shows up? Have you had that happen before? I have and so when you go to do something like that, you've got to be okay with living with that fear. And I'd be always like, Okay, well, I'm going to get someone who's going to share a nugget of wisdom. So at least I know there'll be two of us here. Yeah,

I love that. You just put it out there, and people responded. That's a beautiful

not only have they responded when we had our fourth event, in person event in September. Akim, it there's something so rewarding and filling by just saying, Look, I'm going to create the space, the place, the time, right, and let the magic unfold. Yeah, share the agenda. How are we going to move in the in the two hours and then let the group dynamics take over. I get goosebumps just talking about it. So it's never about me. I'm just like a channel where this has happened and the connections. Someone posted in the group recently that he's been able to do three things he didn't think he was going to be able to do because of the support of the group. We just got started also, I had a sponsor reach out. Hey, you need some money for like, lunch or something like, this never happens. I've been playing fault with event planning for decades. You have to work your ass off to find the location and of sponsor. I am so delighted

now you and I again, if people see us, we we look zesty, we're energetic. We've been up in the world for a long time. I think one of the understandable anxieties that folks have when it comes to aging is what happens to the body. Myself as an example. You know, I had a double heart valve replacement surgery last year. I had a great surgeon. I recovered fully, really well. We're recording this. I just came back from lab swimming here in Portugal. I swim longer distances than I ever have in my life, but I'm aware of both sides of it. You know, I'm that was a wake up call, having the heart valve replacement at the same time, I'm fitter than I've ever been, so both are true for me. But first of all, how do you navigate your own physical health? How do people on your podcast talk about aging when it comes to the body?

Oh my gosh, we have so many wonderful conversations around this, because we don't come with an expiration date on our booty. You know, you went into that operation at your age, going under anesthesia, you knew there was a chance you wouldn't come back up. So you are seeing that, you're seeing your friends die, and you're like, oh my gosh, how do I live and still understand that this is it, right? I mean, any day now, well, there's so many things that you've got to understand. And also it's DNA. Look, I've got longevity genes. My dad passed when he was 101 my mom, 96 my grandmother, 100 it's in my DNA, just as did my DNA to also be looking this good at this age. I had nothing to do with maybe I stayed out of the sun and I didn't smoke. Okay, great.

And you brought back desire,

and I brought back desire. Stay tuned in and turned on. Oh yeah. Don't discount that, folks, this whole part of understanding, how do you thrive? So that's why I've had guests who can't see out of one eye. You know, don't walk well, their knees aren't working. They can't do these things. One of my favorite guests Sandra Allison, she fits into that category. She's in her 70s. She has a thriving resume business that she founded because she kept getting she couldn't get a job after the age of 58 and she's highly qualified. And she said, I'm going to beat this system. And she found a way to beat the tech system that scans your resume and bumps you out for age. And so now she helps folks do that, but, and she said, and besides, I'm a gamer. And I said, What? Bingo, bridge, look at my bias. Akeem, she goes, No, I've been killing zombies since we had to use punched cards on mainframes. So there's ways to work around your body's challenges. Julie Dennis is a private investigator. She can't really see and walk well at all, but she can do a lot from her home computer, and she can solve some really amazing detective challenges for people. And she, of course, she has her partner in the business, so we talk about that. But then I also interviewed Ginny McCall, who, at the age of 73 just got the Guinness Book. Of World Records for the oldest female ninja athlete. Now, what she does in competing, she's been on America in Ninja, she my body I wouldn't have wanted to do when I was 1525, 40. We all are navigating that part. What I can tell you is the number one thing you can do to age well, no matter what's going on with your body, is to keep moving like you're doing Akeem. The other challenge that we talk about, and Deborah greenhut has a phenomenal just go visit our website, is managing your life if you're a caregiver, because being a caregiver can kill you before it kills the person, whatever disease that they have or challenge they have before they pass. You have to have these conversations. You have to understand what services are out there for you. There are so many services for elders out there that you can put to use. So these are all the resources we're talking about, as well as, Hey, you want to learn something new, that's a great thing to do for your brain. A woman I follow on Tiktok, Jean Pauline, I think her name is 82 years old, does a Tiktok almost every day. She's talking about politics. She's talking about life. She just survived the huge hurricane in North Carolina. Oh my gosh. There's so many things people are doing to stay connected and tuned in, tapped in to what makes their heart sing and what they want to do. And the other freedom you have, and we talk a lot about this on the podcast, is the fact you can pull on a thread go. I love this as a hobby, but I don't think I want to make money at it. I might want to get better at it as a hobby. Or you pull on another thread and it's like, wow. And you do that for a season, right? Maybe three, maybe five years, and then you're off. I had a woman who always wanted to model. Now she isn't some tall, glam babe that could have always been a model. She's about 5758, up in Toronto, she went, took all the classes, learned how to do the strut and move and everything. Six months ago, she got signed by a major modeling company, and again, it she's not somebody like, Well, you see some of these models in our age like, dang, they've always been that beautiful, right? No nothing done, and no face work, nothing, no surgeries. She's having the time of her life, and the following for her is huge. There's Pauline out of the Bronx, who gets out there every day, leans up against a fence in the hood, and she's doing her exercises at 72 showing everybody just move the body, lift that weight. She is so inspirational. So there's so many folks who have found ways to still find meaning and connection, and that's what I want to help folks do. Help them start reframing the stories that taken on and they don't even know they've taken on that are preventing them from pursuing new dreams and opportunities. Now,

just as we wrap up, since you are a ferociously public 68 year old Andy Lyons, if you had a chance to whisper a little bit of advice to to young Andy when Andy was maybe young girl, a teenager, based on what you know now, not to change Andy's journey in life, but just as as the wise fairy godmother, what would you want to say to young Andy based on your life lessons?

I would say, keep having all the experiences. Experiences have always been important to me. Life doesn't always peak during our younger years, right? We see lots of famous people in their 20s and 30s and wow. But I would tell her, just keep having the experiences, soak in, pull on threads that make you happy, that you're curious about, do all the things, because there's no end point until you take your last breath. So it's never, ever too late, and you're never, ever too old to pursue something new, to find a new opportunity to be a better you. Because, as Maya Angelou said, right, once you know better, you do better. When you're young, you don't know so much, right? But when you're old, you do better. And one of my favorites is Cyndi Lauper, just saying, It ain't over till it's over.

On that note, where, where would you like to send folks so curious about your podcast or anything else that you have out there? Oh,

come help us shatter internalized ages over at Don't be caged by your age.com. And you can find me Andy. E, L, Y, O, N, S, Andy, Lyons, everywhere. I glow on social media, connect with me on LinkedIn, come follow me and don't be caged by your age. On Instagram, tick tock and YouTube, really great conversations are happening, and we're all about dissolving ageist beliefs so that we can thrive after 65

Andy, thank you for the conversation today, and thank you for just being you, my friend.

Oh, thank you for creating the space to have these conversations. Akim, I always learn even more about myself when I get to hang out with you. Thank you.

Bye for now. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The my fourth act podcast. If you like what you have heard, please like us and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. And if you would like to engage more deeply in fourth act conversations. Check out the mastermind page at Achim nowak.com it's where fourth actors like you engage in riveting conversation with other fourth actors. See you there and bye for now you.