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The reality of practicing leadership is different from talking about it. No one knows that better than Dr. Andy Palmer, who Automotive Leaders interviewed recently. And there’s no more important space for the right kind of leadership than the automotive industry.

Anne Partington, a mobility leader in the transportation industry and commercialization director for advanced transportation, explains: “We are living through immense and intense disruption across all of the automotive industry and with that brings opportunity for novel approaches and the culture change to support rapid innovation”.

Between traditional command and control OEM and California tech culture clashes, it’s ripe for opportunity and growth. So how is Andy Palmer really leading the charge?

“[He’s] running three start-up companies — not just one. And he sits as a board member on a fourth,” Anne says. “That is a demonstration of true commitment to innovation: To be in the thick of it.” Spearheading DEI initiatives and all-in commitments to net-zero emissions takes real guts in the automotive space. It’s hard to drive change, and even harder to make it stick.

But likability in a leader can go a long way in inspiring real innovation spurred on by culturally diverse teams. “Every time there is a challenge or a failure, that is a great opportunity to learn,” Anne says. “When leaders like Andy Palmer share those experiences, and in that manner are sharing their vulnerabilities, it makes them much more identifiable.”

Together with host Jan Griffiths, Anne breaks down the key learnings from the interview with Andy, with a thorough deconstruction of what leadership and culture really mean for an evolving automotive industry. They share what really resonated and what the automotive space can expect now and in the future.

Themes discussed on this episode: 

• Why understanding social and technology trends is important to driving cognitive diversity and inclusion in organizations
• The importance of actually living your values to drive real change and growth across different teams with diverse experiences
• Going all in on your mission and being willing to put yourself on the line
• Why automotive and the entrepreneurial spirit mesh together so well
• What disruptive challenges automotive faces now and in the future — and what to do about it

Featured Guest: Anne Partington

What she does: Anne Partington is a mobility and transportation expert in the automotive space. Her work as a commercialization director for advanced transportation focuses on advancing new technology in the market. Her areas of expertise include mobility, innovation, sustainability, inclusive leadership and supply chain management.

On leadership: “Sharing that life is a journey of ups and downs, successes and challenges, makes a leader really approachable. There is no one of us that has that perfect journey of having a vertical trajectory all the way up — it's quite stepped. And every time there is a challenge or a failure, that is a great opportunity to learn. When leaders like Andy Palmer share those experiences, and in that manner are sharing their vulnerabilities, it makes them much more identifiable. […] That’s also very inspiring for people who want to take risks. to try new things, to try to be supportive of others, to bring diverse voices and marginalized communities to the table who historically have not been present [or] had a voice.”

Episode Highlights

Timestamped inflection points from the show

[2:05] Key takeaways: Anne breaks down the main ways the Dr. Andy Palmer interview resonated with her.

[5:04] Cognitive diversity: Andy had the foresight to not just understand social trends, but to act on them by bringing them into traditional processes. Healthy dissent at the table really matters.

[8:34] Creating parallels: Moving DEI forward takes real creativity and innovation. Jan and Anne dive into what Andy did to make it happen.

[11:53] Living your values: Jan breaks down why Andy never took other automotive roles being thrown at him. 

[13:05] Startup and disrupt: Running three companies and being on the board of the fourth helped Andy pave the way for sustainability with his all-in, net-zero mission. 

[15:28] Building bridges: Anne shares advice for connecting the entrepreneurial world of start up with traditional OEM manufacturing, and the invaluable lessons learned.

[18:14] Cultural fit: Between traditional automotive command and control and the California tech space, there’s no one culture. But further than this, different cultures are experienced within teams, so it needs to be a key focus of companies that want to thrive.

[24:12] Lucking out: Andy could’ve cashed in on his ‘Godfather of EV’ title, but went for honesty and humility instead — the hallmarks of not just a great leader, but a likable one too.

[30:49] Advice for auto industry leaders: In closing, Anne shares her unique insight into the challenges disruption brings for automotive. 

Top quotes

[2:57] Jan: “One of the biggest challenges in practicing the growth mindset is making the time for it. It's so easy to keep your head down in the weeds and focus on the day to day for the business, but [Andy] seems to have one eye on the future — and he's always learning. That's hard to do.”

[3:35] Anne: “Anytime you’re working on something that's so far out, that there's really high risk and the potential for reward is really unknown. You’re trying to predict consumer usage, regulation [and] whether the shareholders will find value in the path that you're taking. These are the hallmarks of a great leader, someone who has to be very resilient to what the feedback might be in taking these types of strategic risks. It is easier and a short-term greater thumbs-up when the focus is on the ROI. But if we’ve learned nothing else in the last few years, I think it has been very apparent that the world is unpredictable.”  

[11:20] Anne: “You really do need a champion to be in place, top-down, who then enables and supports the movement of that DEI work. Most importantly, not just to create belonging, but accessibility to high-level strategic work, all the way to driving decisions and beyond. And then supporting the decisions that are made in that space, and ensuring that it is understood that people can take those risks, have those conversations, and they are going to be supported along that journey.” 

[16:19] Anne: “All the way throughout my career, where I saw an initiative or an opportunity to be intrapreneurial and bring together a team of people to solve a problem or a customer issue, I've always had the support. If I felt that it wasn't there after a few years, I would also look to continue to grow. But in every role I've had […] I recognized the value of bringing together teams, particularly cross functionally, even supplier partners, and really being entrepreneurial. That spirit really fuels that entrepreneurial behavior that in some ways is very parallel to entrepreneurship.”

[Transcript]

In this episode, we're going to deconstruct, yes, we are, we're going to tear apart the last episode, which was the interview with Dr. Andy Palmer, so many areas of leadership and culture, and what's going on in the automotive industry. And I think it's important that we pull threads from that interview. And we talk about the reality of practicing some of those leadership traits in the world today. And as we see cultures in the automotive industry evolving for the future. And I've asked, Anne Partington to join me to go through this process of deconstruction because quite frankly, I could think of nobody better to talk through the Dr. Andy Palmer interview, and let me explain why. Anne is a mobility and transportation leader. She is the Commercialization Director for transportation advancing new technology to the market. And I could think of nobody better to join me on this deconstruction of the Andy Palmer episode than Anne Partington. Anne, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Jan. It's a pleasure to be here with you today.

Okay, so let me just ask you the obvious question, Andy, covered so many different facets of leadership. And I really love the way that he talked about the evolution of the Nissan LEAF, which of course, he spearheaded into reality, he brought that into production. But what of all the things that he talked about? And what resonated with you the most? What did you really grab a hold off from that interview?

Well, first of all, Jan, it was an absolutely fascinating interview, in so many ways, because intertwining the automotive development journey over the last few decades and listening to Andy, talk about his own journey. And then to what he is doing today really resonated with me for a couple of different reasons. Number one, is his continued evolution as as a learner and a leader. He talks throughout the podcast about the different opportunities of learning, the evolving of his own career. And now he himself is in the innovation and entrepreneurship space, working on the very next phases of transportation, which is where I sit, commercializing advanced transportation and mobility technologies. And so I resonated a lot with the fact that we have to continue to be agile, continue to be flexible, continue to have that growth mindset, and really bring our teams on board and working on not just what is needed for today for the ROI of our business. But what's really needed to support a sustainable transportation industry.

Yeah, and I think one of the biggest challenges in practicing that the growth mindset is making the time for it, right, it's so easy to keep your head down in the weeds and focus on the day to day for the business, but he seems to have one eye on the future. And as you say, he's always learning that that's hard to do, right?

It is hard to do, I think one of the stories that really stood out to me was I believe you had called Andy, the Godfather of the Electric, the EV, the electric vehicle. And anytime you are working on something that's so far out that there's really high risk. And the potential for reward is something that is really unknown, right? You're trying to predict consumer usage, you're trying to predict regulation, you're trying to predict whether the shareholders will find value in the path that you're taking. These are the hallmarks of a great leader, who also has to be very resilient to what the feedback might be in taking these types of strategic risks. It is easier and a short term greater thumbs up when the focus is on the ROI. But if we have no learned nothing else in the last few years, I think it has been very apparent that the world is unpredictable. And the era that we're living through right now with the global pandemic, increased conversation and awareness of the disparities in society with relation to mobility and transportation and many other factors. Seeing and working on these things years in advance, is really the only way to have a pathway to be able to execute. And so you know, I think that that is hard, and it takes someone who can recognize that that payoff may not occur right away. It may pay off never, but it also could, in fact, really pay off in a big way. And so that Part of his discussion really resonated with me.

I think it's very important to have dissenters at the table, people who think differently, who bring different experiences. Having said that, you know, and worked in human factors and perceive quality, where we did run clinics, expressively with people outside of the direct automotive industry, because we're all biased, those of us who work. I think the importance is not only of bringing those perspectives in, but what I really appreciated about Andy was the fact that he listened and executed to that. And, you know, I had similar experiences along the way. But one in particular, even though it seems very small and trivial, has really stuck with me throughout the years. And it was when I worked on a platform team, and we had a great debate about the USB connector. And whether that was the right thing to put into the vehicle at the time, or whether it should continue as being a cigarette lighter. And that the the mainstream charging mechanism for cellular and other devices, including mp3 players, and I'm sure some of your listeners won't even know what those are, I should, you know, transition over and take the risk of putting in a USB, or a cigarette lighter type of power execution. So I really appreciated that he not only sought out and looked for those diverse voices and perspectives, but then implemented that into the strategic sort of deployment of that big project with the leaf.

One of the things that hit me about that part of the discussion was we talk a lot about cognitive diversity, right. And when he was developing the leaf, he said that he brought in, he wanted to understand social trends. And he brought in a department that was doing that at Nissan, which typically, they didn't ever do that. And he got the viewpoint on the perspective. At the time, you know, the new generation coming up was millennials. Now, of course, we talk about Gen Z. But he had the foresight to, and he says, You need to not protect that group. But to bring that thinking into the development process. That's cognitive diversity by bringing in another department that you don't normally bring in. And I don't know about you, Anne. But, in the automotive industry, traditionally, we don't do that we don't, we don't like to do that. We don't like to go outside the normal process. We don't like to bring in outsiders, you know, or a different group of people. And there's another example that I just listened to yesterday and listened to a podcast about Lee Lacocca. And Lee Lacocca brought in K and E, the marketing firm that he had brought in for Chrysler back in the day back in the late 70s. And he said, I want to bring them into the product development process, because I want them to find out what the customers want. And I thought, and those two things lined up for me. And so here, I'm listening to Andy Palmer talking about this. And he talks about this very sort of macro fact. But I think that's a huge, huge thing, to break out of the norm and to bring in another way of thinking another group of people, what do you think about that?

Yeah, he walks the talk, right. And I know that you are huge ambassador for the DNI initiative within the industry. And I'm sure you caught this. But again, he talks about it sort of matter of fact, because to him, I think it comes somewhat naturally. But did you catch that with the female Advisory Board, the parallel board and Aston Martin?

I did.

What? I was, you know, when you're interviewing somebody, there's content and structure, there's certain questions that I want to get to. So sometimes, I'll hear it, but it won't really hit me. It won't really land until after the interview. And that's one of those things, that after the interview, I'm thinking, Wait a minute, did he just did he say that they had a parallel board. So you caught that too?

I did. And I thought that was really interesting. Because sometimes or many times, even in my own career, I have been in only in certain rooms. And when you have a community of folks who can bring that diverse perspective together, versus being in only in a room, there is something that's compounding about the safety of being in a space where there might be more than one person who might have a different perspective. Now, this person, those different perspectives, or differing perspectives may not align. But the fact that there are multiple people talking about those things, I think is really interesting. And I think there was an example at Ford, I believe, with two women who were the chief engineers on a minivan and prior to that minivans had been historically sort of led by men but the primary customer was typically women. So I thought that was really powerful, that it wasn't just one person, he talked about bringing a group of women together, and the importance of that diversity for the product for that journey. And that was, you know, very impactful, and definitely something that I resonate with, and, and quite honestly appreciate.

Yeah. And then here's something for the leaders out there listening to this podcast, right? You're looking at diversity, you may be looking at your team, your team isn't as diverse as you'd like it to be. But what Andy did was rather than say, Okay, well, you know, we'll get there, I'll put my actions in place. He said, No, no, no, I need this level of diversity. I need this thinking in my business right now. So I'm going to do something different and create this parallel board. That's what I love about it. You know, he didn't just stay, say, Okay, well, we'll eventually get a diverse team in place, he, he did something very creative and innovative.

Yes. And I think that's where it comes in, that there's this team of Andy, taking risks and standing behind it, and really being a champion for it, then that also was something that really resonates. And I see in different industries and companies, when they are trying to move their DEI initiatives forward, you know, you really do need a champion to be in place top down, who then enables and supports the movement of that DEI work. Most importantly, not just to create belonging, but accessibility to you know, high level strategic work all the way to driving decisions and beyond, and then supporting the decisions that are made in that space, and ensuring that it is understood that people can take those risks, have those conversations, and they are going to be supported along that journey.

Yeah. Well, he's a man is obviously very comfortable in his own skin. But I love how focused he is on his values, right? He's very much mission driven. And he could have easily taken a job and another OEM, I asked him that question, pointedly. And he said he had offers. But he didn't. He didn't do that he got off the corporate treadmill. And, and I just so applaud him for that. And the one quote that I remember him saying, he said, I enjoyed the opportunity to speak without a suit. He said, It's very empowering to speak about issues without the shackles of the corporate PR machine. And I thought, wow, there it is, you know, I just love that. But he is he's involved with so many companies right now. But they are all right on right in line with his net zero transportation, value and mission. And he's just so driven by it. And you can see it, it shows, and I love to see somebody just breaking that corporate mold and living life in line with their values. Don't you?

I do, and, you know, we are living through a time of immense, intense disruption. And what I thought it was interesting was that he's running three companies, I believe, not just one, in some capacity, maybe a fourth on a board, I can't remember exactly. And so that is a demonstration of true commitment to innovation is to be in the thick of it. Because in the startup world, you don't have this broad set of resources to reach into within your own company framework. So although there is structure and rigidity, there's also a budget, and there's lots of people that can aid you. And in the entrepreneurship and innovation world, you don't always know what's happening next. And so you do have to reach across boundaries that you may not, you know, have reached across before and work with people in the public sector, perhaps in academia, perhaps with other entrepreneurs, that's one of the things I really love about the entrepreneurial space is entrepreneurs really help one another. Because you never know when someone might have the answer to something that you need, and that you might be able to open a door or help someone else with what they need. And so I think that it is very, very interesting that he took that leap, that he's helping pave the way, I believe he talks a lot about sustainability, and his commitment to that net zero mission. I really appreciated that because that's a really big value to have. And you got to be all in if you really want to support that because it is difficult in the corporate setting where there are different metrics that have to be met to appease shareholders and employees and your board excetera to be able to really be free thinking and just execute. So that was actually very exciting for me to hear that the CEO of Aston Martin stepped out and is doing all of these amazing things concurrently.

Yeah, he's a very inspirational guy. And, you know, as I look at your history, your career, you've gone through traditional OEMs. And now you're in that entrepreneurial space. Obviously, Andy was at a, you know, CEO of Aston and CEO of Nissan, but on the ground here in Detroit, Anne, what are some of the challenges that you think this is a bit off topic from the Andy discussion, but I just haven't come out of supply chain and purchasing myself in the tier one space, right? How are OEMs ever going to connect into this entrepreneurial, innovative space and world? How do they do that? What What advice would you give them because you've lived in both.

and I am still living in both. So I live in the world where we are taking high potential early stage technologies and finding a way to jumpstart them into the transportation industry. So I still very much am connected in with the automotive industry, as well as folks in other transportation verticals. I think one of the things is, you know, being intrapreneurial, if someone has an entrepreneurial idea to really embrace it, I've been really lucky. Jan, is all the way throughout my career, where I saw an initiative or an opportunity to be intrapreneurial, and bring together a team of people to solve a problem, or solve something that might address a customer issue. I've always had that support. And if I felt that it wasn't there, after a few years, you know, I would also look to continue to grow. But I can tell you pretty much in every role that I've had once I got brave enough, which took a few years at the beginning of my career. And I recognize the value of bringing together teams, particularly cross functionally, even supplier partners, and really being entrepreneurial, that spirit really fuels that intrapreneurial behavior that in some ways is very parallel to entrepreneurship. And I think it is happening, I will tell you, I have a number of industry partners that I'm working with right now. And when I sat back in my purchasing hat, I think some of the areas where I see real opportunity is in the supplier diversity space, for example, in the innovation process and the way planning occurs for technology roadmaps and how the supply chain community can engage in those activities and sort of help be that strategic NEC, to take the partners they have today and also evaluate and look at Partners cross functionally that are outside of the purview point of view today, and really look at how the technologies are evolving. And so it has really been a great pleasure to make many of these reconnections. And, you know, I think we're going to see a lot more of that. So I'm hopeful. I'm excited. I love seeing the re-emphasis of the importance of the supply chain community in our in our transportation space.

Yeah, there's a lot of excitement, there's a lot of activity going on, for sure. And one of the areas that I talked to Andy about was obviously culture and leadership, but culture. And there's the command and control culture, the traditional automotive, the hallmark of automotive industry is command and control culture. And then we've got what we refer to as the California tech culture. And these are two very, very different cultures. As you well know, I like the way that Andy talked about, there is no one perfect culture, there is only a culture that you decide that you want in your company. So when you're in the entrepreneurial space, it must be really interesting to see how these companies start and how their culture evolves over time.

It's fascinating. And, you know, I really appreciate how he said, there's no one culture because that's absolutely true. Just as in a big company, there might be intentions to set certain values or missions, it's really at the very local team level department level, that each individual experiences what that culture might be, and depending on which teams they are, they actually might be experiencing multiple types of cultures. And in the global world we live in the culture might be, you know, quite similar, quite different depending on which team you're interfacing with. And, it's very similar in the entrepreneurial world because some entrepreneurs are serial entrepreneurs, they've built numbers of companies. Many of our entrepreneurs begin as researchers in academia so their team structures are different. It especially if it's their first time because they're mainly dealing with research projects and students, etc. So pulling forward these discussions on what culture can look like. And understanding how that culture needs to evolve as a startup is really important because the startup world is hard, Jan, it's like being in supply chain. And having a major failure every day of the week, sometimes, you know, you might have in the real steep startup curve, you might be pitching to someone one day addressing a product failure, the next dealing with HR issues, because you're trying to scale, you may not have a super formalized process, or even a real system in place from an IT perspective. And so you're on 100% of the time. And so, again, coming back to that supply chain space, those skills have been really helpful in sort of the structure and the way that we can support these entrepreneurs and help them think about the importance of building that culture of purpose early on, to really help people survive and thrive through the startup ramp up kurz.

Yeah, the whole the whole culture thing of startups. I've only really, I've never worked in it. But understanding through reading and watching YouTube videos and shows. And the two that really stand out in my mind is Uber and Wework right. So here, you got two startups. And the VC guys, you could see if the if the Netflix show or whatever it was Apple, I think it was Apple TV show is true, then they're trying to coach these guys, right? They're trying to coach these newly minted CEOs, on how to build a culture. But these guys wanted nothing to do with it. They didn't want it. They had in their head an idea of what the culture should be. And it was horrible. Obviously, for both companies, it was a disaster. And both of them almost failed. While some good would argue that they did. So what, what, what are your thoughts on that? Because I mean, it's gonna be really hard, right? When you're dealing with these entrepreneurs of startups, CEOs of startups, how do you how do you coach them and guide them and say, hey, you know, you need to be focusing on your culture as well as the day to day.

a Jay. And I think that it actually is really organic. And really, the goal of what I do and others that I work with in the entrepreneurial ecosystem is to provide that support. That support might look like mentorship, it could look like coaching, it could look like reaching out and making referrals and connections to those that might help with, you know, sort of the next step, whether it's, you know, a problem in terms of scaling a technology problem and organizational issue. So the idea is to always be that support bridge and surround that entrepreneur with support. I think that's really important. And I do think it is organic, although for some, it happens more because of circumstance. And for others, it's more of a thoughtful, you know, sort of the space. But in the beginning, it's all about survival, right? cashflow is very low, you're looking at scaling, you're trying to ensure that your product is in the correct market, that you're not having product failures. And we all know in the product development, world failures are inevitable. So embracing sort of that each failure is a learning opportunity, connecting in with other entrepreneurs who are more seasoned who are more experienced, extremely important, just as in the automotive space, you know, it is important to have your go to mentors and hopefully more than one, you may have a mentor that's helping you with your your own personal development, you might have another mentor that's helping you with scaling the operations of your company, you may have another mentor, that's just your, your sounding board for you know, feeling blue one day and needing to get re energized. So I don't know if I addressed your question, but I think it happens organically for everyone at some point. It just depends on the person and their, their mindset. But thinking about it early is definitely important.

Yeah, but it goes right back to your earlier point, right? It's a growth mindset. You've got to have that open mindset, you got to be open to feedback that sometimes is hard for people. The other thing that I think really, this is the second interview I've conducted with Andy Palmer know is that he's so open and the vulnerability aspect of it right. And when I asked him about this idea of being the Godfather of the EV that is actually a title that some media gave him I think in the UK, so I just took it and ran with it because it sounds great, and that's who he is. And I said to him, how did you know when you launched the Nissan Leaf? How did you know that the world was going to EVs basically and you could see a pause for a second that he says, Well, you know, I suppose I could look really smarter and come up with something, but honestly, we didn't know. And I just love that, you know, he's just so honest and so open and vulnerability. And then when we get into the personal questions at the end, you know, he chuckles and he, we, we laughed, we talked about punk rock and his love of chocolate biscuits. And that I think, we used to think that being open and showing vulnerability and humility was a weakness. And it's such a strength, because it just draws you right into him, doesn't it?

Absolutely, he covered such a wide range of topics. And yet in such a pragmatic manner. It also struck me that here is someone who is extraordinarily accomplished, and yet talks about his successes with a great deal of from my perception, and just for your audience's sake, I do not know Andy Palmer, I've never met him. But I want to get to know him more and learn more about his leadership from the conversation that you had. He talked very briefly, or you mentioned, I believe that he was awarded also men as allies award by the Women's Engineering Society. And his answer to that was so brief. I mean, he could have gone on. But I think that just overall, sharing that life is a journey of ups and downs, successes and challenges, makes a leader be really approachable, there is no one of us, that has that perfect journey of having a straight up, you know, vertical trajectory all the way up, it's quite stepped. And every time there is a challenge or a failure, that is a great opportunity to learn. And I think when leaders like Andy Palmer, share those experiences, and in that manner, are sharing their vulnerabilities. It makes them much more identifiable, like I could identify with him in those spaces. And that's also I believe, very inspiring for people who want to take that risk to try new things, to try to be supportive of others to bring diverse voices and marginalized communities to the table who historically have not been present have not had a voice. And so for me, that was very inspiring. And just the entire context of the conversation led me to these three words, tell me more.

Oh, there it is, wow, yes, you hit the nail right on the head, you just want to talk to him, I never want to let him go. You know, from the mic, I know that I have to be respectful of his time, obviously. And I'm not Joe Rogan. So I can't do a three hour interview. But I feel I feel the exact same way. I just, I feel like I know him. And I've talked to him twice. Now, you know, I've interviewed him twice. But I totally agree, you want to know more he draws you in. And that to me, Anne, that is the ultimate quality of a leader, where you draw people into you where they want to know more about your mission about what you're doing. And you don't repel people, so many leaders today, you know, repel people, because they're trying to be all tough and corporate speak and what they think an executive should look like, just be a human being talk about the fact you got a punk rock collection, and you'd like chocolate biscuits, talk about the fact that you started as a kid in the UK, right as tool. I don't know if it was it wasn't a tool and die. But he he started off as a designer, you know, he knows how to make stuff. He knows how to make pots in the automotive industry. And those are the kinds of leaders that we need more often you think,

Yes, because when you get to know someone and see a side of them that normally isn't perhaps as visible in the workplace, then you start to understand that people are much more multi dimensional than we may perceive them to be because we have perhaps a certain space in which we are communicating with each other or working with each other. So you know, the comment about I believe drinking gallons of tea was like, yeah, it just made me chuckle you know, because I am also a person that drinks gallons of tea. Although you might disagree with the way I I prepare my tea sometimes, and we can have a conversation about but you know, at the chocolate biscuits, right, so I'm a child of immigrants. My family came from India, marie biscuits are part of the morning routine, you know, one or two. I mean, it just seems like that's just what we do. And then the punk rock, you know, my brother and I this is going back a very long time. You know, we watched the very first MTV awards together. I believe Peter Gabriel was the winner with sledge hammer. And believe it or not, I loved you know, Jon Bon Jovi was like my thing, Van Halen, and I used to listen to a lot of year old techno music when I was young, and most people don't know that about me, you know, and eraser was one of my favorite bands. And I hope this doesn't get out. You know, that's what we did back in the day, right. And I really thought that that was a special moment to get a glimpse of who Andy Palmer is outside of the automotive industry and some of the things that he chose to share. So it just makes people more relatable. I think, in a if I ever meet Andy, I would love to offer him a gallon of tea, it's chocolate biscuits, and perhaps, unpack that dialogue a little more.

Yeah, no, I love that. And, in closing, you've had a tremendous amount of experience working for the OEMs and also in the entrepreneurial space, you're right at the intersection of innovation and commercialization. What advice would you have for leaders out there in the industry today? What are some of the challenges you think, that they're facing? And do you have any advice to offer?

Thanks, Jan. You know, we're living through a time of intense disruption, disruption in the way our technologies work, disruption in our workforce, disruption in our daily lives. And there's a lot going on behind the scenes that we don't even see with trauma that people are experiencing in different ways. So I think a couple of the key values that will be really important in the way that leaders execute their organizations and support their teams are to have continuing courage. We don't have all the answers right now, but to acknowledge that some of these challenges exist, and to take a humble approach, and creating these spaces of safety, so that you can bring people together, bring people along, so that they can participate in initiatives and development from the very beginning of ideation through deployment, and really drives sustainable solutions, and has strongly knit cultures, regardless of whether you are working in person, hybrid, or remote. I think those are some of the key values that we will need to continue to have is that culture, that humility, and that essentially will drive communities of trust. And above everything else, when you have trust, then you have a foundation to really have a respectful work environment where people can work through these disruptive times and be impactful both as individuals and as organizations.

Yes. And it's not just about the product anymore. It we have to innovate in all other areas of our lives. Anne, thank you for joining us today.

Thank you, Jan for having me. It's just been an amazing opportunity.