Welcome back Within Thin Lines.

In this episode, we reveal one phenomenal partnership, for the greater good of our First-Responder and Military Communities.

Welcome back to a conversation with Chris Smetana from the Wounded Medic Foundation

Join us in our movement in normalizing mental health, and become part of the solution. Peer Support is the answer to mental health strength and conditioning.

As always, if you, someone you know, or your agency could use any of our support for mental health, training, and gear supply/resupply, we invite you to reach out to us via email at STAY@WTLPODCAST.US or call us at (844) STAY-WLT

Never forget, you do matter, and we have your six and twelve.

Call/text 988 for immediate mental health support any time.

Discipline is your responsibility. With the Wounded Medic Foundation and the WTL podcast, we can help you honor that courage.

Stay Safe, Stay Healthy, Stay Within Thin Lines.

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening and

welcome back within Thin Lines.

My name is Vince Castaneda.

Today I have Tyler Frank here with me on the virtual end calling in from Michigan.

Tyler, how you doing today?

I'm doing all right.

Good.

It's been a little minute.

I know you've been busy.

On your end, you're going through paramedic.

Yeah, we just,

Been about three months into that so far, that journey.

Oh, oh

yeah.

Oh yeah.

And you and I, I think a couple nights ago we, we did a Zoom conference

just to make sure you're studying the appropriate stuff, talking

about blood, gas, and levels and pH

Yes, that was, all the stuff that never showed up on that test.

That's right.

Good stuff.

. Vince: We're preparing

for all the good stuff.

Need I need a good every once in a while you can stare at text and you

can do the videos and do the homework, but my go-to usually is getting my

head kicked in by Vince a little bit.

And that's right.

I usually set some stuff straight,

so like-minded people.

And speaking of like-minded people, today we have another guest, a returning guest

who is now here to reveal something and which we'll talk about later in the show

is gonna be coming into a partnership.

So without further ado, Chris, Matt Montana.

Welcome

back.

Hey, Vince, thank you very much for having me.

Glad to be on with you and Tyler today.

And kind of talk about some passionate subjects that we, equally share

and hopefully share some really exciting news for, our listeners.

Absolutely, absolutely.

With the, the current events and we recently just released

the episode last night.

It was kind of a spur of the moment.

We've had some challenging times happen throughout our area here in Illinois.

And we decided to do a very impromptu, just a re reminder,

reality check, a buddy check.

We dropped an episode saying we need to normalize mental health.

and this is something that we as a organization have been really

compassionate about and wanted to pursue, to develop a program, develop

a foundation with partnerships, with collaborations, with other agencies, to

be able to provide a resource for our first responders and military personnel.

And something that, you know, ever since I met you, Chris, ever

since I took your class, it was something that you and I have always

been leaning on each other as well.

Have utilized each other for that support and said, we, we

are losing like-minded people.

How can we find this in fruition to become a bigger aspect?

And that's what we're here today is to kind of talk about the normalization

of mental health, but the best thing we could do in, in trying to

educate and inspire this mindset is to reflect within ourselves.

You can't lead without being an influencer.

You can't direct somebody without showing by example, right?

So this is where we're kind of at.

They know my story they've heard about Tyler's story, and it, I think this is

an opportunity to hear from you, Chris kind of your background, what's, where

are you from, what, what have you done?

And what's, what's ultimately your life goal?

Well, I think you said a lot of good things there.

When you look at the current state of affairs when it comes to normalizing

mental health and first responders among military veterans, active military

personnel it goes across the board.

We're seeing the fractures along the lines.

We've seen them increase over the last two years, and it's only been perpetuated

by the pandemic, the ongoing e m s shortage, and we're seeing suicide rates

climb faster than they ever had before.

And we have more resources and more tools available than we ever.

, but nobody's actually stopped to ask the question why?

Why is that happening?

A little bit about me and, and some of you guys out there listening.

You guys may know a little bit about my story, but I have struggled

with mental health for the last going on almost six years now.

I've had two failed suicide attempts.

My last one was in January of this.

and not a lot of people know that I got to a very deep place, even

though I had resources, even though I had worked through tools it

still happens to the best of us.

So to, to piggyback on some of the things that you said, I think also

showing humility and vulnerability is even more important nowadays

than ever because we're so guarded.

We're so guarded because of the stigma.

We're so guarded because we don't want to be judged and we're just fearful of

what might happen, what might come of it.

Am I gonna lose my job?

What are my coworkers gonna think?

What's my family gonna think because they think I'm an alcoholic?

Because I've now taken those steps to admit it.

Right.

Those things all become barriers within our industry and challenge.

. When I started imed, I found imed.

My whole passion was to help change emergency medical education from

a fragmented industry and bring it together and make it high quality,

not just check the box stuff.

And, and I brought that passion to it.

But over the years I started getting burned out, started kind of losing

the passion, the drive, what drove me, because as an early entrepreneur

and a bootstrapped entrepreneur at that as a founder there's a lot of

stress on you when you start a business.

And just like you'd be starting a new department or starting a new position

as a manager or as a new medic being Tyler those are stressful moments.

And what we have not been given, at least in my experience, because

I started as a lifeguard, when was 12, I went right into m t school.

At 18, I was working for the fire department, went right into flight.

When I hit my three years, I worked for the Department of Defense

that did contracting work overseas and supportable war on terror.

And What I learned it throughout all of those, now looking back in

almost 22, 25 years, if you go all the way back to when I was 12, I mean

that's almost 30 years of experience.

But what I did not get taught in any of that, I got taught about medical

procedures, new changes, updates, protocols, drugs, physiology, changes

in cpr, R and a h a, not once was I ever taught about how to deal with stress, how

to deal with addiction, how to deal with burnout, how to deal with mental health

disorders and struggles that are so real.

But nobody wanted to look at 'em when I came into this industry

because it was sit down, shut up, like, don't share your feeling.

I mean, that was the culture I came into.

It was very, very toxic and that was ingrained in me as a new recruit, as

a proby, as every step of the way.

But not once was I ever given the tools on how to figure out life.

right?

How do I deal with life?

How do I deal with life?

Overwhelms me when I have to work.

I was working three jobs, I was working for two fire

departments and flying full-time.

I didn't have a life I was gone and home only usually

two, sometimes one day a week.

That's it, what does that do for someone when you're in isolation?

So that led me after imed ims, doing really well.

And we've transitioned and we were recently acquired last November by NoFL

Learning Group and it's been phenomenal.

I got with another company that gave me the resources and tools to help support my

mission and grow that and see that going.

But during my struggle in January, what I found when I was alone, and for

some of you who have never actually gone through a situation like this,

I'm gonna be really real candid.

So I just wanna give you a trigger alert because this might trigger you if you

are feeling like you're in a dark space.

And if you are, please reach out.

Text me, call me, DM me, find somebody head up, Vincent, cuz we're here to help.

But when I was I, I took my truck out on a long country road out here in Utah.

Got back from teaching a ventilator course, I got triggered out there.

I didn't have my dog, I didn't have my resources, I forgot my meds.

And I got really off track, man.

I got into a really bad spot and I just took this drive.

I just driving at this point just driving, driving and you just get in

your head, man, and it's alone and it's night and now I'm intoxicated.

When I got out to where I was, I basically drove down way down to the snowmobile

trail and then I got the great idea, Hey, I don't think I'm just gonna take my

truck over to this tree line over there.

Well, I didn't make it very far on a snowmobile truck trail in my truck.

I made about probably 150 yards before I sank and buried it.

And at that point I didn't have cell phone service.

I'm in the middle of nowhere wilderness, Utah.

and there's no calling for help.

There's no reaching out for resources.

I, at that point, was left to my own devices, and that wasn't a great thing.

That just continued to see me get into a deeper and deeper place.

About two 30 in the morning a B l m, snow cat who grooms a trail

at night for the snowmobilers.

During of the day, he happened to come across my vehicle

and asked me if I was okay.

I said, yeah, I'm fine.

I'm wearing a t-shirt, shorts and my night slippers, and it's negative

16 now, just give you perspective.

And I don't have any clue.

I didn't I got my survival.

I'm, I'm very resourceful if I want to be, but I wasn't in that mindset.

A series of events happened after that Utah Department of Public Safety came up.

They took a look at me interviewed me, stuff like that.

They helped me tow my vehicle out.

And at that point they took me into Hebrew Valley Medical Center, where

I was evaluated by a crisis worker.

And at that point I was committed.

They've transferred me out into a a specialized mental health institution.

And I wanna share my experience because some of you you may be thinking

some of these things or some of these thoughts that I was initially

thinking before this event happened.

And that was, Hey, if I ever get really bad I'll at least go check myself in.

That's why I always told myself I'd never actually done it, never

actually been into an institution or did gone through that process.

But going through that process they said I initially I could bring my service

dog they were gonna make accommodations for her and stuff like that.

I could couldn't call anybody.

You don't get any clothes.

So for pretty much the first two days, because I couldn't find family members.

Cause you, you only get to call five people on your list and you

only get the phone so many times.

Like, it's, it's, it's a, it's a very controlled environment and

you're in there with Well, I was the only one there suffering from a

mental health illness in my regard.

So a suicide attempt essentially.

Everybody else was there for detox, most likely.

There was a lot of detox, whether it be alcohol, whether

it be heroin, stuff like that.

And so you're put in that environment, you're sharing a bed with somebody else,

a rams stranger that is equally not as healthy as you or, or could be worse.

And I was stuck in that environment for nine days.

Hmm.

And I will tell you, that was the worst environment to put someone like

me in how triggered I was constantly.

I mean, I'm looking at all these, all these other patients there

as they're my former patients, I could put faces on each of 'em.

I'm like, ah, yeah.

Tube this overdose before.

And I've done that one.

And you, it, it wasn't a safe place.

And then I remember at the time it was this past January and there

was that big fire, I believe in Boston or New York where it killed

about 12 kids and stuff like that.

And all they were talking about is, well, why didn't the and here

I am suffering from all of that.

It was not a good experience for me.

I didn't get the treatment I needed.

I think the best thing that ever came out of that is I just got my meds balanced

to a degree and then got additional tools to follow up with to keep me going.

Sure.

But realistically, the nine days I was in there, i I, it was hell, it was absolute

hell for me and it wasn't a pretty picture and I wouldn't want anybody now going

through that experience to go through a similar experience that I experienced.

I'm not saying they're all like that, so please don't take it

like that or out of context.

I'm just saying this is my experience at this institution and it needed

change because the way that we address mental health in our general public

versus the way we address mental health and first responders and veterans and

military personnel, law enforcement, we, we loop 'em all into one bunch.

And that's what the medical community does.

That's what the general public does.

, and I hate to say this, but there are two complete opposite spheres

here when it comes to this stuff.

In my personal opinion, the way I look at it, the reason being is man, when you look

at it, there are two different spheres.

Well I can understand a general public who's never been trained or

indoctrinate or sensitized to what we go through to have a car accident,

have a bad day, or have a traumatic event, assault, sexual, whatever.

I understand that, but there's a difference when you have a, an acute

event versus a decade or two decades or three decades of different events

that have different stimulations.

I have P T S C like complex.

Now there's a new category for me because they can't just put me in one.

I'm not ashamed of that.

I'm actually happy.

Why?

Because it shows that the medical community is actually recognizing

that there's, this is a very it's not a one size fit all.

It's not one symp.

It is a very complex issue.

It's not a cookie

cutter thing.

No, it's not.

And we're now looking at it, right?

We're finally trying to unravel that.

And the biggest challenge is if you there's some good books out there.

John Bon Roseberg, one of my friends turned me onto one and I can't remember

the name off the top of my head, but I got into that book and I really saw

the challenges that general medical community and psychiatric and behavioral

health we're taking the approach on this.

They didn't wanna update the DSM five.

They didn't wanna even recognize P T S D.

They didn't, Hey, this was Shell Shock syndrome.

It's just ignorance, right?

You gotta update, you gotta change.

And guess what?

If it's not on that D s M me as a patient, I can't get help for that.

What am I gonna claim?

What insurance is gonna pay for it?

And then they start fighting about what medications are actually

ethical or you to get my bravado treatment, which is ketamine.

I do inhaled ketamine.

I've been through the initial program and now I do a maintenance every three

weeks and it helps keep me balanced.

It's part of my therapy re regimen.

I had to fight for that.

I had to show that I had gone through four other antidepressant

medications without success before I could be considered for that.

Do you know how long it takes to get on a psych bed?

You gotta wait at least six weeks minimum to see the effects and the changes.

And then they got adjusted dosages.

So you're talking, I pretty much went through a whole year and a half and I

couldn't take advantage of this therapy because I had to go through all these

other steps and hoops that didn't work.

And so those are just things, those are just problems that I'm just, I'm just

bringing up, I'm bringing awareness to.

Right.

And I think some of the other people that are, might be listening in

yourself could, can relate to this.

So these are struggles that we're kind of going off of.

Right.

And then I also look at it's, it's a hard change, and so I didn't

want to go through that anymore.

And so I got passionate about it.

One, I got sober, I started working with aa.

That was, for me, that was a good tool for me to get me into a good place.

Therapy once a week, twice a week just depending on what's going on.

And then over time it just becomes maintenance.

What I have found, if I don't do it, I start going back to the things

that used to cause me problems.

And so that led me to kind of create the Wounded Medic Foundation, and,

and that's why I'm so passionate about mental health, because.

I'm just as passionate about mental health as I am about education because I

actually care about my fellow provider, my, the brothers and sisters working

alongside me that are in this industry.

More importantly, those are actually coming in that are new.

Like Tyler he's going on a, why aren't they teaching stuff like this

and giving these these students the tools up front in class to help give

them the opportunity to be successful.

Give 'em leadership cools in class.

Because when you're a medic, that's what you're technically the leader of that box.

Mm-hmm.

, you're a supervisor, but what training have you given as far as being an

actual supervisor or a manager?

Zero.

You're just winging this stuff.

It's ojt, right, baby.

And we've always just flown by the seat of our pants and unfortunately the state

of affairs show that that's not working anymore and we need to re-look at that.

and, and make some licensedions and see how we can implement some changes that

will actually provide them with the tools to decrease the amount of rate

of suicides, to decrease the amount of e m s providers that have diversions

and have substance abuse issues.

We don't provide enough of this.

We're seeing the communities, and this is a good barometer, at least for me, when

I start seeing the conferences really focus and shift their focus on mental

health, that tells me something, right?

Tells me that they finally woke up and they're catching on.

And that's what you're seeing and that's great.

It's a good trend, but how can we make it sustainable more importantly?

And two, how do we make it better?

So I think those are really good things as as to why I'm

here and why I'm so passionate.

But for those of you guys looking at this story I am, I'm almost

a year past my suicide attempt last January, six months sober.

I feel great.

The best I've ever been in 20 years.

I gotta.

Work-life balance.

I got tools, I got time to myself.

I told told Vince like you asked me how I was doing.

Hey, hey, I'm gonna do a podcast at Friday at work.

Finally, like, I didn't have that life before.

I'm gonna go read my, my book.

I'm reading educated right now.

I love it.

Like, I'm gonna sit down in my office and read I, these are opportunities

I didn't have and I didn't have the tools to even think about that.

So I've had to have other people help me with my support to help create that

routine for myself to make it better.

So, hey, if you guys are in the fire, you guys feel like you're in the fog.

I was there.

I was in that darkness.

Okay.

I can tell you that there is a light on the other side.

And sometimes you just need a helping hand to guide you get out of that thing.

Mm-hmm.

. And that's kind of where I'm shifting my focus now.

I, I've been in the fire twice now.

I'm never gonna say it's fun to go back into the fire and help other people,

but since that attempt I've tried and some successfully and some not

successfully, is it was very public.

Back in March when I lost my friend Drew, I missed his phone call by 30 minutes.

Oh.

Actually, he called me and I said I was gonna call him back

in 30 minutes, and within that 30 minutes he had taken his life.

And that was very I was very public because I'm, I'm

tired of this stuff, guys.

Yeah.

I I'm tired.

I've lost five friends this year.

Five.

Yeah.

Last year I think I lost about the same, I think it was closer to seven, but people

that I knew, people I were working with, people that just within our community that

would reach out either through Facebook or whatever based on what we were doing.

Right.

And, and there's hundreds more that I'm not seeing.

And I think we're all kind of tired of it.

And I love my buddy Jim Green, he's been a good friend and mentor of mine.

He does a mission ready campaign, but he always says like, I, I love his line.

It's either you accept the status or you choose to change it.

And I'm not accepting it anymore.

So I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

I'm doing it.

I'm working.

Whether it takes traction or it gets off, I don't know.

Yeah.

I don't know where this journey's gonna go, but I'm excited to have the support

and the community I'm excited to see.

Hopefully it does make an impact, even if it saves one person a year.

Like that's one death that I don't personally have to own and deal

with and, and, and go through again.

Like I just, sorry man, I don't go to funerals very much anymore.

I used to go to 'em all the time to pay my respects, but dude,

I, I just can't go anymore.

Sure.

I can't.

So you, you nailed em.

That I had I think the the, the problem of this, what I'm

calling is a pandemic, right?

It's been an issue for decades now.

It's yeah.

It's something that, I hate to see that.

Statistically we kind of classify this almost like it's a natural cause, yeah.

This is Complet heart.

Yeah, this is, this is, it's absurd for me cuz this is preventable

means this is something where we ought to be educating our recruits.

We ought to be work educating our candidates early on.

Just like you said, I and I, I talked about it on the

podcast we released last night.

One of the things I noticed in every academy and every basic training or

whatever I've been part of that, we always had someone of leadership come in and he'd

say, Hey, don't bring your problems home.

Don't talk about your problems, just leave 'em at work and then

just try not to bring it home.

But of course you bring them when you go home, your, your spouse and your

family, they know you've had a hard time.

You could try to bite your tongue as hard as possible,

but your body language changes.

And then if the more you ignore the issues, cuz we all need

to, we all should be aware that we work very odd jobs, right?

We're not designed to be able to handle trauma and chaos and

gore, but this is what we do.

We work high stress jobs.

We're gonna get high stress moments, we're gonna have those outcomes where

we're struggling, so if we feel like we shouldn't be addressing it

at home and just ignoring it, we're just, we're, we're setting ourselves,

ourselves up for failure, so my, my response to that is, is f that

go home, talk about your problems.

Talk about your problems for your partners, your crew, your, your team.

Get rid of the stigma.

I think for a while employers were kind of saying, oh yeah, we're,

we're big about mental health.

You could come talk to us.

But what did they do?

They send you home?

, they give you time off.

That's not what we need.

We need support,

so, so we're gonna send you home to be further isolated.

Right?

To be with all your vices that make you worse.

Can you see where this goes?

Right.

It's not, and you're right.

It's like we, we, we we're chasing a hamster wheel if we don't make the

changes and, and some of those changes they come down to the dollar and,

and I'm a businessman, so I understand that there's only so much dollars.

There's only the, the pie's only so big.

So how much can we contribute to the pro programs internally within

an agency to help support this?

And, and if anybody has caught one of my lectures about burnout, there's six things

you guys can do that cost your agency zero money, just time and energy that.

Time and energy, zero money, so go check out that talk with the EM s leadership

or I'll be at CC T M C with Porsche actually presenting that one as as well.

So but yeah, like it doesn't cost money, but you have to put in the

time you have to have a program.

And, and some people it could be fair, like if I was an employer and

I had no idea how to come after this pandemic because I myself wasn't

given those tools, do you get fearful?

Like, okay, maybe if I just not do anything, it'll go away, right?

Like ? Yeah.

It's just getting louder.

And I like how you mentioned talking because I can wholeheartedly tell you

that the more I tell my story, the more I talk about my struggles, my

deficiencies, things that are bothering me, the better I actually feel.

I don't think that beforehand, . I have to remind myself when I get to

that point, because I don't wanna open up, I don't wanna talk to anybody.

We, we in, in, in, in nature.

We just wanna shut down and withdraw.

That's what we want to do.

We have to fight against that.

And those are, those are part of the tools of being mentally resilient

is, is how do I fight against that urge not to reach out, not to talk.

So for me, I have to remind myself, Hey, remember the last time you felt

like this, you called up so-and-so, or had a conversation with so-and-so

and man, how'd you feel afterwards?

I felt great.

I got that off my chest.

I was able to let it go so that I don't have to keep that stuff in my backpack.

I can just, Hey, it's out.

And that's the thing.

I didn't talk over my 22 years of actively working first line ems.

I didn't, didn't talk to anybody.

I was told like, you man, bury it.

Keep it down.

Shut up.

You're a baby.

You can't handle this.

I remember calling one of my direct managers while I was having a

complete hallucinogen flashback breakdown and asked for help.

And I was just told like, you, hey.

, go ahead and take tomorrow off.

Well, great.

I dealt with three fatalities that day.

One being a neonate and you're just telling me, Hey, just

stay home and sleep it off.

Go be isolated.

That's gonna help.

Go be isolated.

Yeah.

So, but now you know, you get to a point where you're able to reflect and

look back and see those things line up.

We call it the Swiss Cheese Effect.

I can see some of those ch, I can see some of those pieces now that

I didn't have the objective or the perspective or the purview early on.

And so now that I have it, I want to share it.

So hopefully this is how we make change, right?

I can't change where I'm at right now, but what I can change is what's gonna happen

tomorrow and thereafter and thereafter.

And I can control how I react to those responses and situations as.

So we gotta get better about talking.

And this is where having inclusive groups I've thought about and, and I

don't know what the answer is, right?

I think, I think it's a multi-pronged approach.

Cause I, not one thing's gonna work, but I've thought about, hey, maybe

we host anonymous, like Zoom hangouts where it's totally anonymous.

You don't have to share your screen, you can just share your mic and it just gives

you an opportunity to just word vomit.

It's just, you, you, and if you know that's available to you,

then nobody knows who you are.

But you know that they're like you in some way because they're either

struggling or they're involved in e m s or, or active service duty.

You can go onto that place and, and get that out and let it go

because that then tells you like, Hey, I have an opportunity.

It reduces the barrier to share.

So hopefully we can all just start talking about this a lot more because.

The discussion helps and it breaks the stigma and it normalizes it.

I'm an alcoholic.

Hi, my name's Chris.

I'm welcome.

Okay.

, I'm part of this misfit band and I'm okay with that guys.

Yes, because guess what?

It's a disease.

It's just like having diabetes.

I don't have control over this stuff.

I didn't know that and I didn't have the tools to recognize it.

Now I do and I'm here

to give back.

Right?

And that's what we're aspiring to do.

I think a goal here in the WTL podcast is that we're gonna be going to academies

and fire academies and getting a, an hour block for their school and

just have this sit down conversation, hopefully, maybe even record a podcast

live for them, but just prepare them, tell 'em this is a reality.

You guys are about to enter a job, that you're gonna see things

and do things and be involved in things that we're not raised to do.

But here's not just the signs.

Cause I think society is very big about here's the signs of,

of poor mental health, but then there's nothing after that.

It's all short term.

Like here's a hospital for, give you nine days or seven days, some medications,

but there's no long-term care.

Right?

What's the long term

AAP visits?

Or eight eight E a p visits.

And then it's like, okay, well now what?

Right.

Exactly.

And some of those e a P visits in my personal experience, have not come or

been as beneficial as they probably could have, and it's not to the fault

of the individual that I was seeing.

It, it's the fault of the overall system because once again, you're classifying

this as your general kind of e a p.

It's the same e a p program that you would call if I was working for HP

or Ford Motor Company or nascar.

It doesn't change.

It's the same kind of thing, and they treat everybody that general thing.

We have to think about this in a different way for this type of individual, right?

Mm-hmm.

, we have to, I don't think it's working necessarily very well,

and I think we need to revisit it.

You know how, I don't know.

That's where having conversations is helpful.

What do, what works for community?

And, and in my talk with burnout, I, I ask providers specifically

like, what do you do for stress?

Because what I do for stress is maybe totally different.

I want other people to hear what you're doing to help manage your stress.

So maybe they can pick up something.

Some guy said he was doing a keto, someone said hot yoga.

All these other I painting, I learned how to play a, a, a musical instrument.

Like these are things that most people just wouldn't think about.

How do I, how do I find ways to decompress outside of work?

Well, those were all great examples, , so, but did you know about beforehand?

Did you even, like, were you cognizant of that?

More than likely not.

And so it, it, that goes to show, like going out to those academies

and sharing things like that is important in what we do early on.

Early on.

And then the stigma, like I would love to talk about the stigma and

how we bust that you Yes, because when you look at stigma, right?

It, the stigma creates fear, right?

And one of the things I've learned is fear is a really big inhibitor

for personal growth, right?

If you're, you're scared to do something, so I don't do it, you're scared of this

challenge, so you don't do it right?

You're scared of, hey, maybe I'm a bad person and I'm not so great cuz

I'm angry and agitated all the time.

And so I don't wanna talk about it, or I don't wanna deal with it.

Well, why because you, you've been told your whole career.

I've been told to bottle it up.

I've been told my whole career not to share these things, and I just need to,

maybe there's something wrong with me because that goes through your head,

like, why are all these other people fine?

And I'm the one that's like totally messed up.

Like, maybe I shouldn't even gotten this career field to begin with.

I don't know.

Maybe it's impasse that just are more susceptible.

Who knows?

But what I'm saying is when we look at the overall stigma, I love this.

I, I just shared a TEDx talk.

They looked at addiction, right?

Addiction the term started coming out around the fifties.

They looked at it and how they get that the study that they did for addiction

was to put a single rat into a cage and give 'em two water bottles, one with

water, one with either cocaine or heroin.

What do you think the rat went, went to the cocaine and heroin every time?

No, without fail.

And a hundred percent of them.

Eventually either overdosing or just they just kept wanting more and more and more.

And around the seventies, this other gentleman comes along and I his name

escapes me, but he takes a little look and goes, well, if you're putting a

rat in a cage all by itself, it has no means to socialize or do anything else.

All it can do is get high.

Like, what,

what do you expect?

What do you expect?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he took that concept and he created rat heaven.

He basically created this hotel, Taj Mahal for rats, had tunnels, all these

different colored balls, play toys, other rats so they can have fun with other rats

and make baby rats and they put the same water bottles in there, and guess what?

Almost zero compulsivity going to the water bottle.

Go get that cocaine or heroin, zero overdose.

And so it's things like that, studies like that, that weren't really mainstream.

And so they didn't get traction.

They just kinda got pushed off.

And probably nobody, I didn't even know this until I heard it today,

and that's why I shared it, but,

That's, that's the stigma of addiction.

Okay, well, you're calling that addiction.

Well then stop isolating me.

Bring me out.

Celine reside with Rebel.

He always talks about connection.

I love that guy because it is like, having a virtual connection is great, but it does

not replace having you here in my office.

Me having that one-on-one, giving you a bro high five elbow, whatever,

that's a different kind of connection.

And we're becoming more isolated with the pandemic.

And so you're losing that a lot more.

And that's why you're I, I suspect you're seeing the acceleration,

but we, we, we put that stigma of, well, this is addiction.

Well, what is e m s?

Well, I just talked about it.

I worked pre jobs.

I was home once a week, always isolated, driving to and from work.

And it's isolated.

Like you're not getting connected.

And on top of that, you're getting trauma and then you're not talking about it.

. It's a walking do time bomb.

I mean, you're just, it's like a water balloon that you've hooked up to a faucet.

It's only a matter of time before that thing

explodes.

Exactly, exactly.

So your negativity is toxic, but the positivity is truly addicting.

Right?

It is.

If we just keep things positive and we, we surround ourselves with like-minded

people, people who may be struggling or who have struggled in the past

and have found the way you'd be surprised how that's gonna lift you.

Hundred percent, whether it's in person, I know world now, especially after

Covid that kind of isolated everybody.

And that's where we saw numbers deteriorate cuz people weren't

able to hang out with each other.

I mean, social things were, were forbidden, but now here we are

trying to reamp that and, and re enclose this capsule of, of support,

and I think Tyler's on this as well, and he's probably listening.

He is like, man, I, I have so much he wants kind of pitch in about it.

But we could go back and forth on, on his role.

He's, he's going through paramedic school and he's an assistant

chief for his department.

He, he leaves that, that leadership role.

And Tyler, I guess, what's your mindset what is it that you

really have found to be the norm within your area of mental health?

Is it even discussed?

Is it even a, a module of a lesson?

Well, that's For the record, I wasn't just napping this entire time.

I I appreciate Chris's input.

It's cuz it, it's thought provoking and the thing that's been sticking with

me through our previous conversations and then Chris and his experiences

and everything is that that norm, that word normalize and you title things

normalize nowadays and everybody wants to normalize a lot of different things.

But it truly is to me to divine normalize like norm.

And a minute ago we just kind of touched on like that fear or that,

that taboo type thing of mental health.

We cuz I think like you, like you said, people and we generally hesitant to do

something we, we think is right sometimes, but there's just no one else doing it.

Or, or there's no study, there's no.

Cultural growth.

Like you grow up with it as, as as a norm, so I think that holds up people.

And I think there's different kinds of normal for, for crisp

I call it, I was, for whatever reason that's stuck in my brain.

People walk through this world and I think there's a kinetic and there's a

potential, kinda like physics, right?

I think Chris, you're kind of the kinetic.

It's happened to you, it and it slapped you and it's now your mindset.

It has, it's your part of your life and every day you address it with the

individual things and that's your norm.

You've normalized it for you.

And then there's people that walk and that have no experience with it.

And that's that potential.

And I'll tell it, call it potential cuz potential energy, it can happen

to anybody, whether you're strong or where you think you're strong or you

think you've got things going well.

Or under control.

It can certainly happen to anybody.

So that potential normalization, and that's what I look at when I see a lot

of, I guess to Vince's question in my little world when I have new hirees

or even when I was getting into, or when I start a paramedic class or when

I start a new adventure, even where I'm at here today there's a normal

to that that needs to be nurtured.

And that's a big thing I think we've kind of discussed.

I think that's a thing we kind of discussed a little bit as far as like

initial education and type of things.

These questions we're not asking that normal is, is how do you train these

people nowadays that, that really haven't had that kinetic type experience in

their, in their world, in their life.

Possibly could, and they're gonna go out into this world and deal

with people who are, are at that point who are experiencing a crisis.

So and it's not just when I talk about how do you train them and what

resources are offered, the initial stuff that you get and answers you

get for that stuff, they're all kind of HR direct itself, black and white.

Well yeah.

It's, it's a business and an agency is gonna cover what they

have.

They call the dance it's like the HR dance.

Yep.

So it needs to, but I love what you said, Tyler.

I love the potential.

That is awesome.

I love that concept.

Yeah.

And that's where we

all should start.

And we should all when you go and dress a class of anybody, law enforcement,

military just within thin lines, community or even, even private sector

business, , when you address it it's to normalize your individual aspect

of that person, of that servant of, of your patient you might encounter.

Okay.

When you ask questions to a patient or some, or somebody experiencing a crisis,

the first one's always outta the mouth are kind of like the, the textbook.

Have you had thoughts?

Do you have a plan?

And all you're doing is checking those boxes to create a treatment plan.

When you really think about or think about yourself, for me to normalize it for

that potential student or that potential servant who's doing the job, normalize it

with yourself, but normalize it for them.

Ask them, Hey, are you married?

Because now I have a yes or no, there's a spouse issue there.

That's stress that causes people in crisis to act differently.

Do you kind of look at their life?

Do they have.

are they, are they a parent?

Are they not a parent?

Are they that you know isolated?

Are they in that isolated spot in that life?

Kind of like Chris, you, you described.

So you, you try to individualize the questions.

You still gotta create that assessment and that treatment plan for 'em.

But, but to put that stress in, that normalize the crisis for them.

So when they get to that kinetic, cuz hopefully they survive it and hopefully

they become that kinetic person.

It has happened to 'em, it slaps 'em outside the head.

They need to know that this is my life now it's normal for me to be like,

this is normal for me to seek different options and routes to get through my day.

Not to just kind of, when I say normal, it's, it's, that's their normalization.

You're gonna help transition them to that, to normalize it for them.

Cause I think once you just eat kind of ingest it in yourself, you.

that it doesn't, it's not so scary anymore.

We're always scared when we run our first call because we've never experienced it.

That person going through that experience, that crisis, they're,

they're kind, they're probably a little scared too, and they've got a pride

and, or sometimes they've got pride.

Sometimes they've got all these external emotions and feelings going on as well.

If you can normalize the, your role as a guidance to help them normalize the rest

of their life it's no different than you picking up a patient that's gonna have a

respiratory illness for the rest of their life and normalizing them, taking care of

themselves with a, with a treatment plan.

Normalizing somebody transitioning into a, like, hey, a diabetic

state of life where they're gonna have to take care of themselves.

We've given plenty of resources for that.

we've given plenty of protocol and sci.

The science is there to show you how to live a good, healthy life.

Once you kind of become that, I mean, like, I keep using that word, that

kinetic patient because you've experienced it and now it's part of your life.

But we really don't give the real, the gut tools to us to help normalize that

patient in a mental health situation.

That's at least on my take of it.

So normal is what stood out to me.

How those were the few things that jumped into my brain and how,

how I was trying to equate it.

So, but , it's

making it normal and it's making it realistic, yeah.

We gotta be realistic

about it.

Well, you really gotta put a human definition to it.

You can't just when you say normalization, you

can't just take the Webster.

Definition for it.

You really have to, it's your this.

Exactly.

And you gotta create this like a culture around it too.

It's okay to normalize it, you know it at the initial training

level, so, and that's a

good point cuz I I could tell you like from where I started walking

the it wasn't my first time going to aa.

I had gone to AA actually five years prior and tried to get sober and

was for a year and then eventually kind of the disease came back.

But normal for me back in may.

. It is not the normal that I have now.

It's, it's been in flux because it's just like a diabetic.

As you learn more someone recently just got out cardiac surgery.

As you learn more about the diseases, we learn more about

the treatment and your routine.

You adjust those things and, and you find more tools and more resources and apply

different people's perspective to you.

And I kind of borrow from here and there and, and create what works for me.

So also I think it's important to know that whatever your normal is

now may not be your normal in a week or two weeks, or in, in a year.

So you have, and that's okay.

Like that's, that's growth, right?

But how do we create I, I, because you're using Kinetic and you're using potential.

So how do we create the action potential, right?

So how do we improve the action potential of going from potential to kinetic, right?

What did you look at those barrier?

Fear, ego, pride.

You mentioned some of those alcoholism, substance abuse depression.

Yeah, I could go on with the list, but how do you create a better action

potential to make it more easily flow from potential to kinetic?

You break it down and then you start giving them the tools early on so that

when they actually are in that potential pre potential, right, so they're

an action potential at that point.

Before they get to a potential, they actually have the tools and some knowledge

and some resources about, Hey, I know I'm burned out, or I feel depressed and it's

okay and I need to go seek treatment or, or find ways to help out with that.

Right.

Versus.

I don't have that action potential and I'm just now going through my

career and all of a sudden I hit that.

Now I'm the potential and I don't have anything.

I've never been taught anything.

Hopefully I got someone that I reach out to who may have walked that line or

walked that path before that can help guide me or not, and I'm left to my

own and that's a 50 50 at that point.

I think we see the trends going more like 70 30, so how do we how do we lead up

on that action potential on the front end?

For me, it's always been we gotta start teaching this stuff in our

curriculum, in the programs early on.

Start it early so it doesn't become such a big problem when we get

there, because hell, if I know how to plug a pipe, as soon as it starts

cracking, I can duct tape that.

I can figure out ways to mitigate that leak versus.

For I, I just, okay, I'm gonna ignore it and I'm gonna continue

to ignore it because I'm scared.

I don't wanna deal with this broken pipe cuz I've never fixed a broken pipe

before, so maybe it'll just go away and then eventually it burst and now I

don't even know how to deal with that.

Maybe there's a plumber nearby that can come help me.

Maybe there's not, I'm gonna flood my whole house.

Those are the analogies we gotta start breaking down because

then it makes sense, right?

It seems like I just had a normal conversation.

I actually wasn't talking about mental health and being depressed

and, and needing help and not being you see what I'm saying?

You can normalize a conversation different ways without calling it what it is.

You mentioned Vince, you know when you, or, or sorry, Tyler you're

going to a checklist, right?

They're asking HR questions and doing the HR dance.

I can challenge you that if I was aware of what those questions were to just

a regular conversation, maybe using those as a guide, I could probably

have a conversation with you and get all those questions and learn

more about you and things like that.

That's what we don't take the time to do, because we just sit here and read a paper

and go, well, Chris, have you ever thought about hurting yourself or anybody today?

Well, yeah.

Okay, well check.

Okay.

Next one.

Do you wanna talk about that versus, Hey, Chris how's your day going?

Have you had any intrusive thoughts?

Yeah, I'm not feeling so great.

I keep thinking about maybe hurting myself, man, that sucks.

You know what?

What kind of thoughts are you having?

Have you thought about how to do it or are you feeling alone?

You see how I was able to have a connection?

on that initial acute side, that initial side.

So not only do I feel so passionate about getting the training education early on

to our to those clinicians and frontline staff, but also making sure that the

people that are receiving that inbound when they're asking for help, they know

what they're doing and they're actually a human and they're being compassionate

and empathetic to that individual.

And I know when I talk to another first responder, especially if I don't

know them, but I know they're here to help me, I'm a lot more forthcoming.

I'm a lot more engaged.

They understand and can relate where I'm coming from.

They can help talk and give me some things initially that will set in

path, the motion of that snowball.

What's gonna happen downstream, it's gonna set up the maintenance or not.

So there's a couple critical points I see is that action potential that you

mentioned, getting it out early on, and then also having people there to help with

the transition from potential to kinetic.

, we've gotta have better people there that are more trained, more

aware, and more human, more likely.

I mean, I'm serious.

I got treated like a, and I joke about this cuz I got to a point

like that when I was flying.

You get, so you, you're just in that routine of just flight after

flight that you're just like, okay dude, on the co you just treat 'em

like a, like I'm shipping something from up s That's exactly how I felt

going through this whole process.

There was no human aspect to it.

Nobody cared about what I was doing.

Only that was all my meds.

They didn't care about checking in.

They never brought me my dog.

They denied everything.

They broke a c l I mean, I'm serious and, and this is a place I went to that's

supposed to specialize in this stuff.

How do you think that set me up for everything else that followed?

Not in a good thing I would, but they gave you a pizza party.

They gave me a pizza party.

. Tyler: Yeah.

So that's the realistic goodbye.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

They give you a bed, they give you three meals a day, they make sure

you're taking your meds per the state.

And that's it.

Like once again, we don't provide that.

And that's one of the things that I like about and one of my long-term goals with

the Wound and Met Foundation, is to have the ability to provide that initial touch.

Yes.

Instead of going to a mental health institution, why don't you come

out on a mental health retreat?

Yes.

Right.

You see the difference there.

I'm gonna go to a prison while I'm scared.

Now I have fear I'm gonna be with other patients, other people

that I've had to treat with.

Why would I ever want to go to that fricking purgatory?

Yeah.

Hey, I'm gonna go up in the mountains.

I'm gonna go fishing, I'm gonna go hiking.

I'm gonna talk to somebody else who's walking the road.

Similarly, you may have some tools, you might be able to help

me with my, my kinetic energy.

And I'm getting out, away from technology.

I'm getting away from all the stressors of the world, all that stress,

and I'm actually just being real.

I'm being naked and I'm being raw.

Right?

That, and that was one of the things I loved about the

Crash and Learn conference.

It just was a, it was an actor thought, right?

It was something that just happened.

But that, that conference created a community where you had people

connecting and sharing, and we were talking about mental health and story.

I mean, dude, it was so cool.

But I left that conference like it was a retreat, man.

Like I, I learned some cool shit.

But more importantly, man, I f my, my cup was filled, man.

I felt so just connected to the community.

I, I didn't feel all of those things.

Why aren't we doing more stuff like, Taking a different approach outside the

box because you know what's working is not working and we all just need to be honest

and face the truth that if it really isn't working very well, could it be better?

Yeah, I'm sure it can.

And, and that's not for me.

I'm not the end all, be all.

I'm not the, the expert on this one.

There's way smarter people out there than me, but I have an objective perspective.

I've lived it, I've walked it for six years.

I've gone through all the experiences I think you could probably go

through in an event like that without not actually expiring.

So I'm gonna

licensed you on that.

I'm gonna licensed you on it because I do believe you're the expert on this, right?

And I think a lot of people get so hung up about like, oh, when it comes

to an expertise, they're thinking like physicians and psychiatrists

and people way above who are able to assess somebody's brain.

And it's like truly though, do they understand?

The extent of what kind of damage we've seen or done the people, the

greatest assets and tools in our toolbox is each other, and I think in, in

my, in my perspective on it years ago when I was Tyler was, was, was a

witness to this cause vetch, he came in and he helped me out out of it.

But there was a time where I was in a, in a dark spot as well, and I

tried reaching out to those resources that our employers have to give us.

And I was realizing like, they don't know what we go through.

Like I'm just talking and trying to word vomit, but they're just

rying it down and they're, they're not really making it relatable.

So I found a resource and I wish I still had it run down somewhere.

But it was a a phone support.

And they connected me to a chief out of New York City who was able to

say, Hey, I worked the job with you.

I understand where you're going through, I've been there, here's

what I've done to get out of it.

And that's where we kind of picked up on it and be like, I wanna work

with people who are relatable, who are, who are, are able to understand.

And a saying that stuck with me forever was that you have to surround yourself

in a community of consequences.

And although that's not quite a holistic word, if you think about it though, if

you surround yourself and people who are disciplined, who are, who are willing

to pick you up and not allow you to fall down, like both of you, if I were to call

you and say, Hey, I had a bad day, and I decided not to go out and, and go do

something fun, or, or even go to the gym, one of you would say, go to the F and

gym and make sure that I'm accountable.

And that's where it's accountability,

right?

It's a safe community, right?

Yep.

It comes back to connection because you feel connected, you

feel safe and accountable, right?

Like if, and it's a good thing.

I mean, for example, like everybody knows I'm trying to stay sober, right?

So like when I went to a mtc, when I go out to places, I

know that everybody else knows.

I'm trying to say silver.

So that helps me stay accountable to not go be tempted to pick up a drink.

Yes.

Right.

Or not be tempted to do something that I never otherwise would not want to do.

Right.

Because they knew who I am.

Like Chris isn't like you, like, what's going on, man?

And I did, man, I, I had a bad time.

Am mtc I had a, had a a got into a little bit of a struggle and I had someone

there, Dave Vera, that help me out, man.

And he's been a but his community, I have you, I have Dave, I have Sal Dylan.

I, I have people that I can call and I'll tell you the hardest

thing is making that first call.

But once you get in the habit of making those calls and I

need help, just, it's okay.

I need help.

For me, I just, I text out green that tells everybody it's a code green.

I need help, I need, I need somebody to reach out.

It's a very simple word that I can text that it has no stigma, no attachment.

That there's no mental fear barrier.

Right.

It's just like when everybody says a port, A port of port, it's

like, what if you just say yellow?

Right?

Like it's easier to say yellow than it is a port of Port of port.

Cuz when you say a port of port, port, like your mind thinks like, oh shit.

Like the whole, no.

But if you come up with an inconsequential word that means the exact same thing

and everybody understands it well that is one way you can reduce the barrier.

Yeah.

Instead of calling us help, Hey, I need support.

Why don't we get that, Hey, I need, I need support.

I don't need help.

You support.

I need you to,

I need support of holding me up.

I need support of guiding me when I can't make the right decisions for myself.

I need support because I don't know what to do next.

And I need guidance.

That is a better word.

It's the same thing as saying help, but what we're saying is we're changing the

word and making it less fearful man.

You're breaking the stigma that way.

Yeah, because maybe that catches on.

Maybe we couldn't get help to catch on, but maybe support is the one that works.

Right.

I don't know, but these are things that we have to be doing, trying, talking,

and having discussions like this.

Tyler, I know you're still back there, man.

What do you got?

I'm all, I, I'm for it.

That's, I'm trying to formulate my thought with that it comes down

in the communication aspect of it and ultimately we're not, I mean,

maybe one of us in this conversation here has got like a communications

degree or something like that.

I don't, I think it's fake, but yeah.

What if I just like to talk a lot?

Does that count?

That's right.

. No,

it, it, that's the next part with, with equipping tools is the right

questions, the right culture to, to get these pe get us all included is

is then the communication tool.

So normalizing terms, normalizing speech, bringing it away from

negatives and, and positives and kind of neutralizing words.

That's it because it's, we're a vast communities.

There's, there's inner city to, from big Chicago to little rural

southwest Michigan where I'm at.

There's, there's different ways you gotta communicate that.

And, and like I said, it's that hard subject to normalize because it's

so individual to the person, to the region, to the culture, circumstances

of the crisis, the culture of it.

So I'm, yeah, I'm for using neutral terms cuz it just a, sounds professional

when you, when you're talking about it.

If you're having a provi a a within thin line member patient contact when

you're at work or if you are helping people that you work with or if you're

that one in that case that is truly what you what we need to is, is definitely

identify co communicative skills or you case you can't standardize it.

That's the hardest part with it.

You can't make, but you can always just identify great practices and what

works for you might work for people in different locations, different

areas, different cultures of it.

So my, yeah, like mine brought really direct people, people around

here, and I, my folk typically , they're usually pretty aggressive.

That's the hard part too for, I would say the 60 40 when I deal

with mental health as a provider.

It's, it's an aggressive approach in the, it's kind of

hard to have neutral and, and.

Kind of versus a border board board or you change it to a color.

It's, it's kind of hard to have that when people just already

naturally have colorful language

So it is, that's, that's a skillset too, in its own and how to cuz it's, it's

kind of weird and I don't wanna shame like a, like a, like a like therapist or

somebody who deals with that in a clinical setting in an office, but they usually

have a very calm demeanor in sense.

And I'm not saying you need to match people's energy, but you need

to convince them that you're with them on this and you're, you're,

you're, you're in the same boat.

And it, that's a skill set all on its own.

And I, and that kind of brought me back to what Vincent said kind of

clarifying who the real expert on this is.

Somebody who's studied a lot of research and done controlled

clinicals or you who live it.

every day . That's one of my favorite.

It's not a, it's like the old, like fire thing.

A good fire is not, it is kind of bad.

My favorite thing, which is really not my favorite, but when I am on a

call like this, I do have identified individuals that aren't trained in

a, in any, any more than the next guy.

They're, they're, they're licensed , but yeah, I know their life.

I know they've been through it, and I know when to say, I'm not the

best person to talk to this person, and I can put the right player.

And they can connect on a level that's the expert.

And to be honest, he is a, he is a one year firefighter.

He's just getting into it, but he's come with a life experience.

He's at the kinetic level and he's able.

Really connect and he's had some crazy variables thrown at him and he handled

'em just kind of as we expected, as the best person to handle that situation.

So knowing your team is another aspect of it too, in, in trying to

find the right person to connect.

If I knew of, and if somebody addressed me, cuz some sometimes

it finds you and then they bring it up to you, which is great.

I love like self-identified when they somebody is experiencing something and

if Vince is the better person to talk to, I'm not gonna try to pawn it off on Vince,

but I'm gonna truly advocate and still follow up with and try to be a part of

it and, and bring Vincent to it as well.

So I on, on that topic, communication is, that's the big gray area.

Secondary to like, normalizing and what is mental health and that's that's,

that's your best Combative, like set of tools to, to help somebody

mitigate a situation or a crisis.

And, and that's the hardest thing to teach somebody is how to be a good communicator.

So,

well, I, I like how you put that, Tyler.

So there's two things that I liked about what you just said.

So the first thing being communication.

I do think we need to be better at communicating about, I also recognized

that communication can be a barrier, and that one of those fears is a very

big barrier for people to ask for help.

So one of the thoughts that I had with the wound medic homepage was basically

to create a crisis video library, right?

It could be other people sharing their experiences on depression on this, because

maybe you don't have that courage to actually reach out to someone just yet.

We want to get you to that point.

But maybe you're not quite good at the critical stage hey, you got a place

that you could just go watch other people talk about their story, right?

And you hopefully can take something away.

is, is that something that I don't know but it's one of those ideas

that I had that I go, well, maybe that helps make things a little

bit more normal, more accessible.

Because maybe they don't want to ask for help.

They can't pick up the phone, they can't text, they can't physically

say, I need help, but maybe they can find some supporting tools.

Hey, I'm struggling with two I'm having some bad thoughts.

What are some things that other people have done to get

through those bad thoughts?

Right?

And what does that mean?

So it's just looking out outside the box in different ways.

Then the other thing that I like that how you put it is you need that that

expert, that expert is someone who has walked it in my personal opinion

there's, there's clinical experts, right?

But then there's subject matter experts, and I, I think you look at

that as those are the people that walked into the fire and they made it out.

I'm not saying they made it out whole, they had made it out burned.

I mean, I sure shit didn't, but I made it out.

I made it out twice.

. I don't ever want to go back in on my own fire again, but doesn't mean I don't

know how now have the tools to go help someone else and pull them out of their

fire or their fog is what I call it.

And I like, I wanna pull a little bit of AA in here I only know how to do

this based on what I've gone through.

Right.

And that's what that person's doing so everybody's different on

how they help someone work through that kinetic por portion of it.

I like how you put like, Hey, if I'm not the right person, I'm

gonna try to guide it to to Vince.

And then follow, still follow up, right?

You should still be following up.

Hey, I'm gonna check in with vi Hey Vince, I got this going on.

That's experience.

And so I think by creating more of those experiences, right, more of

those opportunities at work, and I.

and then provide those own in individual mentors or whatever you wanna call

them, that are helping those individuals through it, provide them with some

growing resources and tools, right?

Like what I learned before is, like I said, different than what I know now

five months later cuz I'm continuing to upkeep, continuing to learn more things.

And so having some tools and resources for those individuals so I think you could

look at communication and absolutely we need to improve how we're communicating

it, how they're accessing the information or, or needing to get ahold of that.

Especially with generation X, Y, and Z.

They're different.

They're not thinking the way that the old salty dog was 20 years before me and

they're not thinking in the way I am.

So we gotta adapt and you have to have different tools of communication.

, but I love what you said, Tyler.

I think it's great and, and hopefully what I would like to see

is a, the, the barriers come down, the fear barrier of how to get

resources and how to ask for support.

And more importantly, I think the a the follow up, right Vince?

So, yeah.

Giving, giving other people tools that they don't know what they're

doing, they're just walking the life.

I'm just walking the life.

I don't, I'm just doing what I've, what I've learned and what

I've gone through my experiences.

But wouldn't it be nice if I had some other resources to continue to

learn so I could continue to be a better provider and, and I could help.

set that person up on a kinetic state that is of maintenance and

continue to support them, but maybe they go on to help somebody else.

And that's how we it's, it's a holistic approach.

We gotta change the culture, the thought, the stigmatism, communication leaders,

people that can actually go into fire and pull people out there are trained

to do it, or maybe they just, they become resilient, and unfortunately,

I, I feel like I just became resilient.

I had two choices.

I could either die or I could live.

And that was honestly the decision I had to make.

And I chose to live.

And because I chose to live, this is now the path that

I'm on, and I'm okay with it.

So wanna see where it goes and continue to listen to other people

have discussions like this, because I, I picked up so much from you and

Vince and Tyler today, just by having

a conversation, right?

Right.

And I, I do know that communication's hard, right?

It is, it is probably the most challenging thing human beings have, but also first

responders, military, we're stubborn.

We're very short worded and it's communication sucks, but a lot of time

it's just a matter of communication through a physical essence.

And I found myself recently someone called me out on it cause I picked

up the phone when they called me and I was like, what are you doing man?

And that was what I usually say.

And now he's like, why do you always ask what I'm doing?

Cuz traditional people are saying, Hey, how are you?

How are you doing?

To me it's like, if I, if I could figure out what you're doing that's telling me

how you're doing if you're out there having fun and, and on a hobby, going

fishing, if I call Tyler and Tyler picks up, he's like, I'm in the middle

of nowhere, woods doing some hunting.

I know he's doing fine.

You know what I mean?

But I wanna know.

It's not, it's not that I don't wanna know you're struggling.

I wanna know what you're doing about it.

What's your, what's your goal from here on out?

And with the essence of like, how do we find a code word?

Can we use yellow or green?

Even that could be challenging for some people, so, Chris,

let me ask you one question.

What does a challenge coin do mean to you?

A challenge coin for me in what it means to me is,

is I got two different ones.

I got my a once and I have the ones from my community, my

fire services, things like that.

Initially I would say that challenge coin meant like pride, honor, things like that.

Over the years it took on more of like a machismo, ego kind of meaning connotation.

Yeah.

So for me, like the challenge coin is just like my patches on my wall.

I got challenge coins over here.

Yep.

Well, it, it's a decoration piece and, and I'm, I'm proud of those cuz those

are the connections I make and there's memories upon that, but it doesn't

have the same kind of connotation and it did when I first started.

Right now, when I look at my A one, it's like that actually means something to me.

Like that is that 30 day chip, that one month chip, that three month chip,

that nine that six month chip, like those actually for me carry a lot of

weight and it's the currency of your.

It's

the currency of my success.

Exactly.

Of my personal success, not of other people's success, not what they're doing.

It's my own personal success.

Yes.

And I've had to set those goals up and have others help me keep accountable

to 'em so I can achieve them.

And that's a community, that's the support that we're talking about.

Right.

So I wanna up this more than just a word.

We have these challenge coins made, right?

For the WTL podcast.

Yeah.

And what I asked for it, and let me get, it's, it's sorry it's all blurry.

But what I asked for it, for the design is the say, the saying of exel

excellence is your responsibility.

One team, one fight, and on the back, plain and simple honor.

Right?

And my challenge for these members who want to be part of this organization, to

be part of the Wounded Medic Foundation, to be part of this community that we're

trying to build is that go back to historic, where people were actually

carrying these in these in their pockets.

Right?

This is something they took its value.

You probably do with your AA coins at this point.

I do.

Right?

You carry your currency of excellence.

And for me, if, if someone were to say or send us a picture, right?

Whether it's email, text, or whatever it is, they throw that currency

on the table, everything stops.

We focus on you.

Right?

No judgment.

No, no current.

Like you don't have to pay for anything.

It's just we'll call you, we'll sit down with you, we'll come out to you.

Let's figure out what's going on.

What is it that you're currently struggling with, that you took

that outta your pocket and you to let go of it, put it on the table.

It's almost like a token for our attention, right?

Yeah.

And you get to keep it.

You get to maintain it.

we have, we have officers now for our city who are carrying them in their vests.

Right?

Just to be able to have that mindset.

If you carry something, it's like, all right, I'm not gonna forget that

if I'm struggling, I got something in here that's currency, right?

Yep.

I've turned my, my garage into a cigar lounge and I have officers come up

on, on their, on duty or off duty.

I open up the garage.

They could sit down and have a smoke, get away from public view,

and just relax for a moment, right?

Yeah.

Have that safe space.

And that's where we really want to build in this foundation, and

nonetheless, it's all about, it's all about building a community.

It's about building these, these partnerships.

It's about doing something for the greater good, which is the success of

our first responders in the military and that's what we're thriving for.

So I'd love to see where we could send these out, build more, maybe

make it even more a full metal, whatever, but just have our, our

viewers and our members carry them.

and then that be the the phrase word of saying, Hey, I need support.

I like that.

I mean, it's just like when you're at a bar and someone you know

from a sister department wants to challenge you basically, cuz they

want to get a free drink outta you, that's, that's all it is.

It's just that's what it turned into.

But you look at the root heritage of where that came from and and I like how

you said that there are challenge points that I do actually have a lot of weight.

This is one that was given to me by heavy lies to helmet.

Yes.

And it has a similar kind of meaning of what you're talking about.

Right.

And, and it's those things that actually do mean a lot, right?

Like this coin was given to me with the story behind it and confidence it

was personable than that I own, I hold that dear to my heart and having

something like that, like a challenge coin where you're right, like my aco,

like if I'm struggling, I'm having a, a bad moment or something like that.

Like it's in my pocket, that's my currency to go, Hey do I

really wanna play this one?

Because if I have that drink, I'm gonna play this coin.

And guess what?

I don't get this coin anymore.

and it's a reminder to go, Hey, this coin is actually more valuable to me than

that, that that beverage will ever be.

So just like you're saying, that is my line of safety.

This is something that I know that once again, it's not October or

anything, it's just you throw on a table, you text a picture of it

out, everybody knows what it means.

Hey.

Yep.

Cool.

I hear you.

We're coming.

We got your six brother.

Yep.

Or sister, we're coming.

We hear you.

We see you.

And things that we don't talk about, like dispatchers, things like that.

How do we get these guys and gals more involved in the community

and the communication, because it's across the board and I feel

like they're very segmented.

So and these were, were we have good ideas with podcasts, so

those of you guys are listening.

If you guys are sharing this stuff or having those communications, share your

ideas of what you think might work, right.

Because we need to have more of those conversations.

I would highly encourage it.

Yep.

Take

collectively, they the listeners and future listeners are more experts

than just the three of us put together if

we're going down there.

That's why you got a community.

Yep.

When I talk about aa, it's like, what, what kept you sober?

Was it you?

No, it wasn't me.

It was my community.

It was my habit, my routine.

My normalization of my, of my struggles.

Really over time that's, that's what brings it power.

And more importantly, that's what keeps me going and keeps me on track, right?

Like, I'm in a great mood today, this week I've been awesome.

Why?

Because I'm doing everything.

I'm maintaining it.

What I do find is when you start slacking off on it, I'm not doing it.

I'm not taking time for myself, I'm not working out.

I'm not getting it in the hot tub.

I'm not reading, not doing those things.

Guess what?

I start feeling a little bit more anxious, a little bit more

snippy, a little bit agitated.

It's a sign and I become more I can recognize that now.

I go, ah, why am I off?

Ah, well you haven't been doing your normalization routine.

Okay, cool.

And I have to do it every day.

Just like a diabetic has to do it.

Just like an asthmatic has to take, if I don't do this stuff, it's gonna come back.

It's always there.

You learn how to be resilient.

You learn how to carry it and have it not be so burdensome.

More importantly, you learn how and when you need to take that

pack back off and set it down or hand it off to somebody else.

So keep going.

I love this mission.

I'm very passionate about it, and I would love this here.

Just more conversation pieces about what other people are doing about this,

because you never know what you're doing might actually help save somebody else.

Yep.

But you gotta get it out there.

If nobody knows about it, you don't say it.

You don't put it out in words like you should.

If it's in here in your head, that helps you.

Hopeful.

But what we can do better about is helping others and being more involved.

And that just comes by just having a good conversation.

How you doing today?

Mm-hmm.

how's your life?

Because you can get so much from someone about where they're at

and what their state of mind is.

So

hold each other accountable.

We always, when, especially when it comes to ConEd our, our systems and

our companies and agencies, they're big about, did you finish this month's ConEd?

Are you ready to renew?

And everything is about the practice of what we do, but then there's

nothing out there that's real.

Like, what are we doing for mental health?

, right?

Is there Con Ed for mental health?

Is

there,

what are we doing to invest in our employee?

The person, right?

That's right.

Because what we're, what we're looking at is a business transaction.

Yes.

I have a call.

They provide a service.

I pay them for that service.

Right.

That's exactly what's happening.

And I hate that.

Cuz we used to have the community in the in and in the courage and, and that

mindset of, Hey, I'm an employee, I'm a loyal employee, but you're also a family

member and I care about who you are.

I care about what's going on in your life.

I care about if you're having marital struggles.

Because all of that actually does impact my business as an employee or as an owner.

We just gotta shift the mindset.

It's not a business transaction anymore guys.

And it never was.

Yeah.

This is real people.

They are dedicating their lives, their mental health states,

their family, their future.

to that employer, right?

Like it's, it's mind blowing.

If you actually sit back like what the actual provider actually commits

to when they go accept a job.

I'm accepting that I'm gonna, whatever's gonna come downstream, I'm gonna accept

the calls, I'm gonna accept the trauma.

And that sets me up for my entire rest of my life.

I could be a five year medic work for a really bad agency and a bad system

and burnout and begun and be gone in five years and never wanna look back.

Yep.

And it's happening now.

Know I see more and more medics, I'm sorry, going to C NRN school, going

to PA school, going to nursing school.

Mm-hmm . I don't see a lot of people going, Hey, I'm going to med school.

I don't see near as many of those anymore.

, so just

Tyler, right?

. Just Tyler

. Chris: Better late than never Tyler.

That's right.

It's okay.

We welcome you to Club Open arms.

Hundred percent.

So what do we do?

, right?

So what do we do?

We

go with this foundation where, where do we go from here?

That's a good conversation.

I think one of the things that we'd like to start especially with the viewers

announcing a partnership between WAC Foundation and with infant lines with

infant lines have always been your mission, your purpose is exactly aligned

with what WAC Foundation does, which is having the conversation, normalizing

the conversation in different types of conversations, whether it be addiction,

substance abuse, depression, burnout.

We're gonna start having these conversations and we're

gonna start opening it up.

We're gonna start, hopefully, creating tools and resources for people to get this

stuff on demand and not have that fear as a barrier of just talking another human.

Maybe that's the, maybe that one little step is what allows that individual

to A, not go kill themselves, but B, take the next step into being that.

Portion of it.

So I think a partnership between the two having within them lines

of the official podcast of Etic Foundation is definitely an honor.

I can't wait to see the synergy and more importantly, continuing

to foster that message and that safe space in that community.

You do the same stuff that I I'm out here snow blowing old people's

driveways in the morning, , right.

You're doing a, giving back to our community.

It's just more than just one thing.

And I think that speaks highly of the mission.