Today we're so excited to be speaking with a true dually-certified unicorn in the SLP & ABA world - Rose Griffin!

Rosemarie Griffin, MA, CCC/SLP BCBA, is an ASHA-certified Speech-Language Pathologist and Board Certified Behavior Analyst. She has over 20 years of experience as a professional working in both the public and private sectors. Rose is the founder of ABA SPEECH. ABA SPEECH offers therapy services and The ABA SPEECH CONNECTION MEMBERSHIP geared towards helping speech therapists, BCBAs, and RBTs support their autistic students. Rose is an author of the book "Say It With Me: Naturalistic Interventions to Support Speech and Social Engagement" and she is the host of the The ABA Speech Podcast, a weekly show all about autism and communication. She is a sought-after speaker who enjoys connecting with audiences at the local, state, and national level. Rose is passionate about the mission of ABA SPEECH, which is to help all students become more independent communicators.

Timestamps:

(01:25) - Welcome

(02:14) - Meet Rose

(13:35) - Transforming a Student's Life with AAC and ABA

(27:12) - Minimally Vocal and Emergent Communicators

(32:07) - Data Collection Amid Distractions: Balancing Accuracy and Engagement

(41:41) - Songs as Tools

(46:19) - Where To Find Rose's Book

Mentioned In This Episode:

• Barb Esch, SLP & BCBA - Early Echoic Skills Assessment and Program Planner (EESAPP)

Where To Find Rose:

• Instagram: @abaspeechbyrose
• Website: abaspeech.org

More From Rose:

• Grab Her Book: Say It With Me: Naturalistic Tools to Spark Speech and Social Engagement for Emergent Communicators
• Join The ABA Speech Connection

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Mentioned in this episode:

CTA - Brit - Show Idea

If you go onto an SLP blog, you're going to see a lot of things like, I will Never collaborate with BCBAs.

What would you say about those kind of conversations?

Like, how do you respond to some of those criticisms?

You're never going to change somebody's mind on the Internet.

That is a good answer.

Don't try.

Yeah, don't try.

And if you're getting mean comments like, I just block those people because they're not there to have a dialogue.

I am trying to do what I can by on our podcast having autistic adults on, we had a really cool.

Hey everyone, I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

And I'm Shawna, behavior analyst.

And we're your hosts at Neurodiversally Speaking.

This is a podcast where we bridge the gap between research and practice, exploring autism and neurodiversity through the lens of speech and behavior.

Whether you're a parent or a professional, we'll give you practical tips to bring into your home or your next therapy session.

Let's get started.

Welcome to the Neurodiversally Speaking podcast with Brittany Clark and Shawna Fleming from lmno, brought to you by the Sensory Supply.

While we aim to make neurobiological, is Neurodiversely Speaking suitable for all audiences?

Mature subject matter can sometimes be discussed.

Suitable only for those over the age of 18.

If you're under the age of 18, please talk to your parent or guardian before listening to our show or listen together with him to stay up to date on new episode releases and show updates.

Connect with us on Instagram @NeurodiversallySpeaking.

You can also send us listener questions to address on the show at [email protected] Neurodiversally Speaking starts now.

Hey everyone.

Welcome back to Neurodiversally Speaking.

We're your hosts.

I'm Brittany and Shaa.

And as you guys know, we're clinicians who really care about evidence, informed conversations, also neur neuroaffirming conversations.

And we are talking with someone who has such a really cool, unique spot in our field.

She is a speech language pathologist and a behavior analyst.

And so excited to have a unicorn.

On the show today.

Rose.

Yes, they are genuinely rare and that's why they're affectionately named the unicorns.

And something that's really close and near and dear to Brittany and I's career is we were mentored by someone that was dually certified and the SPA B special interest group is like our people.

We are, I want to say, the number one promoters of that group and are so, so excited to have Rose Griffin on the podcast today.

So thank you so much for being here.

Happy to be here.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I'm going to share a little bit for our listeners about who you are in your bio.

Like I mentioned, she's a speech language pathologist and a BCBA who runs ABA Speech, which is a platform offering courses, CEUs and a podcast, which we love for SLPs, BCBAs, and RBTs.

She has worked in private schools and private school for students with autism and just published her first book.

So exciting.

We'll talk about that.

But the book is called say it with Me, Naturalistic Tools to Spark Speech and Social Engagement for Emergent Communicators.

Rose, we're so happy to have you here.

Thanks so much for joining us.

Of course.

I can't wait to dive in.

All right, let's start with your story.

I think you were a speech pathologist first.

And so what made you decide to go back and study behavior analysis and become a bcba?

I'm so curious.

Yeah, absolutely.

So I started my career in the schools and I worked there for a year and it was great.

But that same school district had a major financial crisis, and so I knew probably in November that my job would be rift, which is a kind of a union term.

And so I was able to use day.

They gave me extra days to go on interviews, which I thought was really nice of them.

And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so stressful.

My first job, you know.

And so I, I interviewed at the Cleveland Clinic, now called Learner School.

And it really, in essence, was a non public program for autistic learners who had behavior that was a barrier to them being in a public school for and for their school.

And I, in my graduate program, I knew I loved working with autistic children.

In my school placement, I had a really great SLP mentor.

Definitely not a bcba, but just kind of behaviorally oriented.

And I was like, this is it.

This is what I love.

And so that second year, I took a position at the Cleveland Clinic and I learned all about helping to support students who were not yet speaking, how to help students who really had a hard time engaging in therapy.

And I also was introduced to applied behavior analysis for the first time.

And I was able to see kids who were older, who had no way to communicate, who had unsafe behavior that was a barrier to the learning.

Having them have speech and ABA and be able to start communicating on their own just really lit a fire in Me.

And I remember saying to my colleagues, because we all shared an office, I want to go places and I want to tell people about aba, because I just saw it transformed the lives of so many kids who were just hard to help.

You know, traditionally, we're not responding to therapy as we would provide it as a speech that therapist.

And so that is where I really wanted to learn as much as I could about applied behavior analysis.

And then it was a couple years after that that I became a BCBA and did all the coursework and the supervision and took the test, you know, and.

And all those things, but I've just never looked back.

So I've been duly certified for almost 15 years, and I've been a speech therapist for like 23.

So I. I've been at this quite a long time.

I love that.

Where did you do your speech pathology masters?

So here in Ohio.

Which.

Which one?

Kent State.

Kent State.

I went also due to Ohio, so I'm like, oh, I wonder if I went to the same.

Where'd you go?

I was a Bowling Green State.

Oh, yeah.

I have friends that went there.

Yeah.

So fun.

Okay.

I didn't know that.

Yeah, I had a great, great education here in Ohio.

And then I think just once you get into your job, you kind of really learn what you want to do with the field.

Well, what I was.

Why I asked you where you went sort of sparked in me.

I remember at Bow Green, loved some of my courses.

Like, I had amazing courses in literacy, and our early language was phenomenal.

But I find we had like a tiny little talk about autism, like, one day, you know, and find that we didn't really learn anything about ABA at all.

And if anything, I find a lot of students coming out of a speech pathology masters, whether it's in Canada, U.S. or anywhere in the world, they don't know anything about behavior analysis.

And if they know anything, they don't look favorably upon it because it's not really something that's celebrated.

Collaboration isn't talked about.

And so I wondered if that was a similar experience, probably, you know, not dissimilar to mine.

And then you're saying I didn't really learn about ABA until I went into my placement experience after the coursework.

Is that right?

Yeah.

I will say I did have a professor who I've actually had on my show, Dr. Lisa Audette, and she was a great teacher.

I really loved her class.

And she focused on autism, and she is very.

I mean, I would say she seems pretty anti aba, but she actually worked With Lobos.

I don't know.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, way back in the day.

So like, okay, that was kind of antiquated aba, but she never let that shine through in her lectures.

I will give her that credit as like, you never could tell that she was anti aba.

So really I, I, when I even became a bcba, I was just like, you know, happy, go lucky.

Like, this is the best thing ever.

And I think social media has perpetuated a lot of the, you know, backlash in aba.

And now that it's covered by insurance and private equity, it just gets harder to regulate.

And as the field grows, you, not everybody's going to be the best bcba.

And, you know, it's just a field, it's a science.

We're growing, it's scaling.

And so I think the BACB is just trying to do a good job of like, making sure that everything's regulated and all the changes that they're making is important.

Yeah, we actually just went through regulation here in Ontario, Canada.

We didn't have anything other than the BACB prior to a couple years ago.

And so it's been an interesting switch over for all of us.

But like you said, it's like, sort, it's a step in the right direction to start regular, like in ensure that there's some regulation in the field.

And then I always say ABA could like use a rebrand a little bit.

You know, you could like call things like kinder things or things that are more approachable to others.

Because I think oftentimes in ABA we kind of lose general people because we're calling things these like, either like really clinical terms or sometimes can be lose people just in our jargon.

And so this is why I love the podcast and meeting with people like.

Yourself and we talk about that a lot.

You know, I make, I've been making a lot of side by side videos on Instagram of like, what a speech therapist might say and what a BCBA might say.

And I definitely, I feel like my calling is, you know, helping all autistic students find a way to communicate with the world, but making ABA seem more easily digestible.

But I do love having people on my podcast and people do courses for us like, you know, Dr. Sarah Frampton and Tamara Casper, who really do use very scientific terms because that's not really my bread and butter.

But I do think it's important to the science and so I think it's great to just, you know, celebrate both.

Yeah, for sure.

Exactly.

That's what I try myself to do.

And I Think as an applied practitioner versus someone living in sort of the research world.

You have to practice stretching that muscle and using more colloquial terms for things or making things more digestible to the general public.

So I would agree.

My clinical terminology is sometimes could use some brushing up,.

But that's perfect.

I'm glad you actually mentioned your socials, because that's one of my favorite things about your social media is that you do try to break down and say, like, we are saying the same thing, even if we're using a different term.

And so I know exactly what you mean by that.

Side by side, like, oh, the speech in an IEP meeting.

Like, the speech feed person is saying this and the BCBA is saying this.

But actually, guys, we're saying the same thing.

And I love that.

And I think you have so many videos about.

Oh, I love.

My favorite ones are your, like, dancing ones where it's like, when the collaboration hits the sweet spot and everyone's doing all the fancy TikToks.

I've tried to get Shawna so many times.

Yeah.

But because also there's, like, a lot.

Of, you know, criticisms of how we can work together on if you look online, like, it's daunting and scary and lots of, like, not so nice things said about one or the other.

Right.

And so if you go onto an SLP blog or Facebook page, you're going to see a lot of things like, I will never collaborate with BCBAs, or I will never reinforce or, like, recommend ABA.

So how do you.

What.

What would you say about those kind of conversations?

Like, how do you respond to some of those criticisms?

You're never going to change somebody's mind on the Internet.

That is a good answer.

Don't try.

Yeah, don't try.

And if you're getting mean comments like, I just block those people because they're not there to have a dialogue.

I am trying to do what I can by.

On our podcast, having autistic adults on.

We had a really cool course once with Melissa Santa Crow and a client who is an adult who receives aba.

I believe she's in New Mexico.

It was just.

He talked about his experience receiving aba.

So I've seen ABA in speech therapy transforms people's lives.

And I just, I won't stop talking about it because a couple people disagree.

And for anybody that says, I refuse to collaborate.

Yeah, I, you know, I did teach the ethics class here at Kent State for four or five years, and that's just, it's unethical to say that.

So yeah.

Not everybody cares about practicing at the top of their game and being completely ethical.

But from somebody who is in touch with the ethical code and who provides CEUs about ethics, often it's not always easy to collaborate, but it's what we're ethically called to do for students.

Right.

Because it's in their best interest.

Right.

It's not about my own personal opinions or my own personal biases.

It's about, obviously, serving the individual that we've been asked to serve.

I wondered for yourself, do you find that you switch hats, like you're a behavior analyst and then you're a speech pathologist?

Or it's like, all one?

Yeah, it's just all one.

I feel like.

Yeah, I feel like it's really all one.

I just.

This is who I am.

This is how I operate.

Great.

Do my sessions look different than somebody who's a BCBA or somebody who's an slp?

Probably.

I think you can see when I do therapy or share, disseminate, or do trainings that it's really a mix of both.

And I just decided a long time ago, I had a business coach and was telling him, like, because when I first started in the online space, I got invited to speak at every single SLP event, you know, where there's a thousand people listening.

And that was really energizing.

But.

But a lot of speech therapists do not want to collaborate with me online.

And so about four years ago, I just decided, like, I'm proud to be a BCBA.

Like, I'm going to go 110% into how proud I am.

And if you really look at all the courses that we do, and if you really look at my podcast, it's mostly BCBAs or dually certified people that I have on, because it just resonates with kind of the vision and alignment we have at ABA Speech.

And that's one of collaboration time.

I love that.

And that's why we're so happy to have you.

Because I. I feel like our values are so aligned and.

But I like how you said you're not going to change someone's opinion.

And you also said, I'm so proud to be where I am.

And I. I know.

I've seen it change lives.

So the best response, I think.

I totally agree.

I wondered, like, circling back to sort of either your, like, kind of early time when you first saw ABA in action, and we're like, hey, I want to, like, dive into this if, like, there's a specific moment that you can think about that you're like, hey, ABA is amazing.

Look at what it did here.

Or even like maybe early in your career where you're like, like I'm so glad I have both hats on right now.

Yeah, I mean one kid stands out for me.

I used to include a lot of his videos when I would do courses for speech pathology.com or continue at is the larger company.

But I worked with a student for three or four years at a non public program.

And when he came into the program he actually had a beautifully set up AAC device but he did not use it functionally.

He was about 8 years old.

He had very aggressive behavior.

He was staffed two males to him in a padded safe room and that for everybody's safety.

And I was his speech therapist for three or four years.

So that first year was really just showing him like, hey, this is the way you communicate with the world.

Because nobody could reach this learner.

Yeah, nobody could reach him.

And he was from very rural district here in Ohio.

I remember he would take a bus an hour each way transportation to get to the non public program I worked in.

And over time that whole first year was just him carrying his device which was great.

He didn't have any kind of sensory issues with like he was fine to carry it, you know, like a crossbody bag, you know.

And we did like receptive id we did requesting and that was almost like the whole first year.

And then the second year we got into more, you know, advanced things.

He could label, he could put sentences together, he could comment.

We did a lot of modified leisure skills.

That's how I started my YouTube channel is wanting all the different staff members to see like this is how we're playing Uno together, this is how we're playing memory together.

And he really enjoyed those types of things.

But working with a kid like that.

And then in that program we also got to go out into the community.

So I remember that was a video to show too of like us.

It was like me, his male staff member who became a BCBA and him ordering with his device at Dairy Queen.

And I just think there's so much power in that to see people using AAC devices in the community.

I'm always like, yes, your speech therapist must be so proud, you know what I mean?

Because it's like a lot of people just you don't see that that often.

So it's really empowering.

So stories like that, and I have many of them, I just, just think if I wasn't duly certified, if I didn't feel comfortable supporting students And I had the right staff support, right?

I always had somebody with me.

I would go into the safe room to see him.

I always had staff members with me.

So I felt really supportive in that situation.

But how having that student who now my friend owns that practice.

So I, you know, check in on my kids sometimes.

You know, some of them graduated now because I stopped working there about 10 years ago when I started ABA Speech.

But, you know, he's able to work.

He's still.

He's able to go into the classroom sometimes for studies.

He's in a separate room, but he's able to work with a female staff member.

And those things are so great.

His parents can have people at their house again.

He can go to his grandparents.

It just literally changed not only his life, but his entire family's.

And I just think it took those specialized services to really be able to reach him.

And everybody that's worked with him could really see that power of using speech therapy and using ABA together to absolutely transform his life.

Life, yeah.

I think AAC is such an interesting topic.

And we know the abandoned rate.

Abandonment rate of aacs is very high because it is hard, right?

It's hard to.

The device is one thing, and the setup of it and what vocabulary is accessible and that sort of thing.

But then, like you said, they got to be carrying it with them all the time, so you got to teach that skill.

And then there's, like, discrimination of, like, the different buttons and the motor control and like, all these things that come into play.

Where, of course, a speech pathologist is the first person you think of within when you're thinking, thinking of aacs, but there is other professionals as well that can add, like, a lens that can help, I think.

And it sounds like in your case, this worked really well to decrease the abandonment rate of those devices because the motivation and, like, all those other factors.

Absolutely.

Very cool.

And then I wondered, is there something that stands out for you where you're like, my speech brain is so helpful here that maybe if I was.

I don't know if you can go reverse because you're a speech pathologist for first, but where you're like, maybe doing something that's more ABA leaning, and you're like, oh, I'm so glad I'm a speech pathologist right now, because I would never have picked up on this.

Well, I think anytime I'm working with a student on a coex or verbal imitation, I think that's just so huge.

Like, I did a invited talk in Utica.

This really cool Conference called the Compassionate Care Conference that happens every other year in Utica, New York.

And I had some really important people that were keynotes at that conference in my SLP BCBA collaboration talk.

And the one thing that I really loved was when I show the most Current research from McLeod Crow about when speech sounds are typically developed.

Because for BCBAs, I mean, Dr. Barash has done such great information with the ESA and the ESA R and it's so helpful.

But we still just, you know, with speech therapists we just take rigorous coursework on how you make every single sound.

And I just don't think there's anything that can replace that type of knowledge.

I think it's just so important to have that to say, number one, is the student even a candidate it or vocalizations and echoics.

Because, you know, the, the thing you don't want to do is turn a kid off to a form of communication.

You don't want to make it too difficult.

So, you know, something else we've talked about in the ABA speech connection or membership is apraxia.

Yes, we've tried to really tackle these topics that we just don't learn about as BCBAs in our pre service training.

But it doesn't mean that we're not seeing kids who have apraxia.

Right.

We, we may not know what the characteristics and signs are.

I just did a talk a month ago for very large multi state ABA company and that was one of the things we talked about because you need to know what the characteristics are.

Because if you don't know what the characteristics are and you don't know, just like we're ethically called to, you know, send out for referrals or try to find a speech therapist who feels comfortable with apraxia.

And I am not that person.

But there are people out there, you know, on the Apraxia Kids directory, we really have to know those things because otherwise our intervention may actually, you know, be doing more harm than good if we have trying to run straight echoic targets for a kid who's apraxic.

Yeah, for sure.

And like, like you mentioned the developmental sequence of sounds too being really important.

And as a behavior analyst definitely never learned that.

And I was thinking as you were talking, like for me it's so natural.

As soon as I'm observing something, I'm like already doing the antecedent behavior consequence relation.

And then with the speech pathologist, I feel like your ear is just so good.

Like Brittany will hear things in the kid's speech that maybe I might notice something Like, I don't know, that word didn't sound the way it should, but I wouldn't be able to like, pinpoint as well or, like, be able to really pick up on the nuances of.

Of the speech.

Sound just comes, like, really naturally, obviously from the intensive training.

I like how you mentioned bar bash.

We.

She's our mentor's mentor, and so we really have such a soft spot for her.

Barbara, she's amazing.

Another SLP bcba.

But I like that she actually said don't teach to the Issa.

Like, those should not be your targets in speech therapy or in an ABA session.

And so the Issa is that echo assessment for people who don't know.

But she comes out very strongly in her trainings and says, like, this is not.

You're not going to be be teaching the kids to say tea, do and taco or whatever the targets are.

And that's where I think a speech brain in an ABA session, if you are working on those early Cokes, is thinking about what sounds in early development are more likely to be, like, easier for them.

We know, we know animal sounds like moo and ba.

Like, we know those ones are easier than saying, like, I don't know, fire truck would be very tricky.

But a bcba, like, would.

Wouldn't necessarily know, like, that development.

So I can see too, that would be a cool kind of insight that's in your brain.

Yes.

And the progression to get from foofa to fire truck.

Yeah.

You know, sort of like, okay, they love this fire truck.

They're always saying something, well, how can we shape that?

You know, collaborative practice, syllable shaves.

I mean, I still stand by tried and true.

The Kaufman cards and then sign in and say cards, which Tamara Casper did with Nancy Kaufman.

I mean, those are just like, the Kaufman cards are awesome.

I just love them.

They're fun, they're cute words.

They're big, durable cars.

And then the sign and say cards are great because they' real life pictures.

And I swear.

And they have a sign on the back.

And then they also have the word shells.

Just like, you know, the Kaufman cards.

And I think they have like Pop Tart on there.

I mean, they're words that our kids are saying, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I like the real pictures too.

That's like, I always love that.

So cool.

So, you know, you're constantly in your socials, in your podcast, on your courses, such a champion for bringing together speech and aba.

Obviously that's the name of your company, ABA Speech.

But.

But let's kind of segue now into like the heart of your book, then must be about collaborative practice and like, how to bring these two things together.

So congratulations, and why don't you sort of share a little bit about what inspired you to sit down and write a book?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So I actually never thought that I would write a book.

Wiley contacted me and I freaked out.

And I talked to every author that I knew and in our field and outside of our field, because I have a couple of business masterminds I'm in.

And I thought, you know what, this would be really nice to be a permanent product of my work, the stuff that I talk about all the time.

And we absolutely do have a chapter on collaboration.

But it's really a.

It's the book that I really wanted.

When I first started working at the Cleveland Clinic and I was working with kids who had trouble engaging kids who were not yet speaking, and I did not know how to support that type of learner.

I just didn't.

And so I really struggled.

And so it's what I really wanted when I first started in the field.

So if you're somebody who is new to the field, if you're somebody who is new to working with autistic learners, it's a really nice guidebook.

And we have our autism IEP goal bank in there, our informal screeners.

Because the worst feeling is when you're trying to give a standardized assessment or criterion referenced and the student is not sitting and then you're trying to goal set from that and it just feels like a mystery, you know, on how to do that.

And I think that's one thing.

Being dually certified is nice too.

Is kind of, kind of pulling those different parts of my brain and saying like, okay, what can we directly teach?

What can we make sure that we're generalizing through natural environment teaching?

What is my therapy going to look like and how can I support this student?

So really it's a guidebook for anybody who's working with a student who is not yet speaking or who is an emergent communicator.

Awesome.

I love that.

And then in the book, is it like, is there tools in the book and some specific strategies?

Is it more like case studies?

Like, what's the format of the book?

Yeah, yeah, I definitely share stories because if you've ever attended one of my courses, I like to start with a story.

I kind of present the way that I like to go to presentations and I like to hear people's stories.

Like I could be like, oh, that person told a story about or you know, Peter Gearhart is one of my favorite presenters.

He's really great.

You know, I remember everybody's story.

So that's kind of how the book is like a story from my real life and then talking about real life strategies.

So in our joint attention chapter, where it's like, how can we use the connect and engage approach, which is using books, music and play to reach our students?

So, you know, what are some of my favorite books and what are some of my favorite songs?

And how do I work on modified leisure skills?

All these things that kind of the clients I've talked about have just helped me have this toolbox of resources to be able to help students strengthen those joint attention skills and flourish on that journey to communication.

Nice.

Did you have any sort of guest authors, like on a chapter like any other SLPs or BCBAs?

Just all me.

Yeah.

Wow.

Me.

Yes.

So it was really.

I definitely was like, I remember they asked me to write it in December and then I had like a year to do it.

But it just.

December's a rough month.

You know, I have three kids and it's a busy time of year.

And I was like, I remember, remember the person that was my contact, she's like, well, are you.

You want to do this?

And I was like, oh my God, you know, it's December.

I don't know, I need to think about it.

But it's been really cool.

Like, we just had a group join the ABA Speech connection from a university here, and they were like, we bought your book.

Like all 10 team members have your book.

And I was like, that's so cool.

Like, I think that's what's really neat about the online platform is, you know, this past year I've stepped away from doing clinical work for the first time, which on some days makes me sad.

But I just feel like I'm able to reach so many more people.

It's like that one to many framework and so I have to just kind of focus on that.

So when I meet people like that and like, oh yeah, I would love your book, or I'll get like a random message.

I'm like, oh, yay, I'm helping somebody.

Because in the online space, of course, I have a whole business now.

But yeah, it's still nice to get those like, you know, kind emails or kind DMs.

Um, that.

That is nice for me to get as a reinforcer.

Yeah.

And nice to hold an actual book.

I.

We both like to read and I don't like to read on my phone or like On a PDF.

I would rather have the book in my hands.

Same.

I like to.

I started a book club two years ago in my neighborhood and I like to read the real book.

Some people do audiobooks in the group.

Some people.

But I just, I buy the book.

I do it.

And would you say the primary audience then is professionals and.

And like you said earlier in your career, professionals or late, you know, if you're learning, rather than parents.

But parents it is, it's geared, it's definitely geared towards professionals.

There's a.

You know, my friend Mary Barbera used to say her marketing was gung ho parents.

So if you're a gung ho parent, you're really into it.

Like, yeah, it would be good for you too.

But yeah, definitely professionals.

Yeah.

Cool.

Amazing.

I also love Mary Barbera.

I recommend her stuff to parents often because it's so approachable for them.

So, yeah, moving on from the book, I think you talk a lot about mine minimally vocal children.

And I thought if we have parents or clinicians really under listening here, what's something that you think is often missed with those minimally vocal communicators or complex communicators even like, sounds like the guy that you are teaching that AAC to.

Yeah, I mean, I think the one thing is just so important to think about.

What is the student's response form going to be like?

How are they going to communicate with the world?

One thing that I think is so important, I had a high school, not high school, middle school.

He was in sixth grade.

He lived in another country for 10 years and he was really cared for, but he had no robust intervention at all.

And so when I first met him, we started working on sign language and then he was actually able to start saying all the same words that we say, which was really, really cool.

But I think sign language is so very important.

And I don't know if it's because I was always a big fan of Dr. Vincent Carbone and he was a big speaker, talked about verbal behavior, but he talked about sign language a lot.

And it just made so much sense to me because we don't need to worry about if something's charged and we don't have to worry about the icon overwhelm or if anybody else understands it.

Yeah, but I think some people don't understand that when a kid's getting started on their communication journey, it's okay to start with sign language and that you don't have to know a hundred signs.

Okay.

Ten are great, you know, and so we've Tried to do that.

We had Dr. Rai do a course for us in June.

She's dually certified and bcad.

Yeah.

And, you know, she.

I had her on my podcast and she said I was an interpreter.

And, you know, I was like, what?

I was like, I want.

Because I really wanted to do a course on sign language, but to be able to offer it for BCBAs, which is tricky with all the things that we need to do for ace.

And so she did a really cool course for us in June about just that deaf, hard of hearing sign language, kind of the culture of it.

I was going to say me too.

And most BCBAs probably take zero.

And.

And we're working with kids who are not speaking.

Like, we need to know, like 50 signs.

So that's something that we're kind of working on as a future CEO.

Cool.

I love that.

Actually, we got a really good coursework.

I did was an assistant before I became a speech pathologist.

And in the assistant program, there's quite a, I think at least two courses.

And so I've, sadly, I don't use it like any language, you know, if you don't really use it often.

But we learn the Alphabet and we learned all kinds of different signs, and then, you know, what sort of those functional things could be for an emergent communicator?

Like some of those ones that you're going to get more buy in, you know, if you teach them, like, something really functional.

Yeah, like obviously we teach baby sign often.

You know, I taught my kids that, but don't kind of apply those same language learning principles to older children, which is an interesting thought there.

And then the other thing I was thinking that we talk about a lot is I think sometimes what we miss with the minimally vocal learners is, like, the way their body's moving and their gestures.

We are big fans of Tamara Casper's work, and I've taken her courses like the Place a Format.

We really run her sort of program at the clinic.

And one thing she talks a lot about are those indicating behaviors and those, like, small little gestures or, like, little ways that they're moving their body could be, like, communicating something.

And I think we sometimes miss that and how we could shape that.

And to be functional for them.

Absolutely.

We have to be those detectives to show.

I was just talking about this yesterday, I think on a different training, but it's just saying, like, those little things are actually really big milestones.

Those indicating behaviors.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then showing our team, like the behavior tech or sort of whatever you call them, showing our team, like, hey, wait minute a minute.

Like, do you notice they're like slightly turning away from you?

You gotta change things up a little bit.

Like, and.

And teaching them sort of how to be a super attuned to what their learners are doing.

And like, notice if their head even like moves slightly away, that might mean they're moving on from something.

And you want to respond to that right away.

Or they're leaning towards you go right now, you know, like, engage with them.

And like, that's something that we love too, is like coaching our team members how to like follow those indicating behavior.

Because it's a huge first step.

And then you're building that trust.

You're building that like, I'm here for you kind of relationship.

Yeah, I love that.

And we've talked about this too, in the connection, but just trying to be 100 present in a therapy session, I think sometimes it's really hard with all the distractors, like is the owners of the company.

You probably have people coming in asking you for approvals on things or your signature.

You know, like, there's just all these things to try to be 100% in the session is.

Is like another really good skill.

Yeah.

As you were talking though, I was thinking about the distractions for the behavior technicians because that's who does a lot of our intervention, but even ourselves.

And something that we talk a lot about is the data collection.

And as a behavior analyst, of course, I want like really accurate, good data, but I also want you to be really involved in this play routine with the child.

And I think that's something that we've slowly been sort of changing and finessing as we go trying something out and be like, no, still too cumbersome.

Not, you know, yes.

Yeah.

We did a talk with Dr. Tracy Raulston in the Connection.

She was actually on my show too, but she has a nice article about taking data during play and more naturalistic interventions because it is really tricky and you do want that really good data.

Like, I just filmed a RBT PDU course about ethics yesterday.

So one of the scenarios was like, you're running late and, you know, you just want to wing the data.

That's ethically, you know, not best.

So it's just hard to always be on.

But it's so important because you could say, like, oh, I just whatever, put down whatever for data, but there are so many clinical decisions that are based on that and it gets in the insurance funding and really is like a huge deal.

And so just trying to remind everybody how important that piece is.

And then us as maybe the owners or the administrators thinking, like, how can I make.

Make this as easy as possible for people to really capture what's going on?

Yeah, exactly.

Because then you run into issues sort of like you're talking about in your course of like people just making up the data or just probably five times, you know.

Yeah, right.

Similarly, with minimally vocal, I feel like something I hear back often from parents will be pushback on introducing aac like sign language or like a formal device.

And certainly we have answers to that.

But I wondered from your perspective, and you've been in the field longer than us, what your sort of answer is to that and how you approach that sort of discussion.

I just think talking with parents and kind of getting to the root of what they are nervous about or what feels difficult for them.

I think sometimes parents think, oh, if we introduce a device, they're never going to verbalize or they'll stop communicating at all.

But, you know, I worked at the middle school, high school level for 10 years, and I think at that level I'm just always thinking about safety.

I want my learner.

Should they elope from the building or just, you know, be out in the community?

Yeah, I know what they say when they're making this approximation, but does that person know what they're saying?

Does the police officer know what they're saying?

I think when we frame it from that way and to say like, hey, we're working on these AAC targets, but we're still working on this.

This verbal imitation or the programming too.

And look, we're keeping data on both and being able to demonstrate that progress, I think is important for par.

And parents are just nervous, you know, that the provider is going to just let those verbal imitation targets go.

And so I think if you show them that you still have that as part of the programming.

Yeah, I think that's pretty powerful.

I like the safety element to there, what you're saying there.

That's so important.

And we see that more too with our youth and teen clients.

Right.

Like, that's everything we're talking about.

It's like how to keep everyone happy, relaxed, engaged, and also safe.

Thank you, Dr. Hanley.

Yes.

Yes.

Earlier you mentioned using books, music and play and therapy, and it Sounds like that's something that's, like, really important to your core values.

And I wondered, what does that look like in a real session?

And certainly as behavior analysts, I think we get a bad rap for being tabletop and tokens and that sort of thing.

And so how do you bring alive the books, the music and the play and the therapy and also learn learning?

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, I had a.

Before I started doing this talk that I've done for a keynote, and I do.

I mean all the time.

Nakia Dower, who's from SPA but called it my favorite talk because she always shares about my talk.

So I like to all the time.

But it's called the power of joint attention.

I had a home client when I had time to see clients, and he was right here in my hometown in Ohio.

And he was autistic, and he was young, and he, you know, you're seeing somebody in the house, and there's a lot of distractors in the house.

And so I knew we needed to work on joint attention a really more structured way.

And that's kind of who inspired me to use this connect, engage approach, where we're using books, music, and play.

I think it's an easy way to work on a topic that has a ton of research on joint attention.

Alternating eye gaze and initiation of joint attention, responding to bids for joint attention.

And I try to include all that research in there, but I think it seems easy, like an easy lift in therapy to incorporate books, music, and play.

And so if I have a student who is an emerging communicator, that's how I may start my session is really focusing on those joint attention skills that are just more naturalistic.

So for this particular learner, we might start with music.

We might do Wheels on the Bus.

I have a visual.

And then we also.

I love songs that have motions because if a kid is not yet speaking, there's a way for them to participate.

And we're working on gross motor imitation or whatever it is.

And so we might do that.

We might have pictures, because it's always a good picture to keep little hands busy and engaged.

And then play might be any kind of modified play in my brain.

I love to, like, get to know my learner and then come up with ideas.

So, like, for this kid, I remember my parents were coming up to watch my own kids, and they brought me all my old Beanie babies.

I don't know if that was a thing in Canada, but they're like little.

Okay, yeah, the little stuffed animals.

So I was like, okay, here's our play.

Yeah.

And so it was like, all the beanie babies.

So he would take them out of the bag.

I would bring a therapy bag.

Yeah.

So I did bring toys.

I know some states in the United States are, like, bagless, where you're supposed to bring stuff from home.

But I just, you know, I work for myself, so I bring my own stuff.

And the kid was excited, and so he.

We'd get all the beanie bees out.

I'd label them, oh, lobster and duck, and he'd line them all up, and then we'd get different items.

Oh, give the lobster an orange.

You know, and it was just this back and forth and working on all the alternating eye gaze.

Him coming up to me and putting his hand out or going into the bag.

Yeah.

And I would just.

I would try to do those types of activities, like, three weeks in a row.

Thinking, the first week we're introducing it, we're getting a baseline.

The second week, the kid's more engaged.

The third week, he's really loving it.

And then I'm showing the parents.

Like, the parents would always say, like, how do you.

How do you know how to do that?

Or, like, where would you come up with that idea?

Like, I don't know.

I just have a lot of toys in my basement, and this is how my brain works.

I love that.

And that would be our play.

And then books.

You know, one of my favorite books is Pete the Cat in the White Shoes, because it's like a book and it's like a song, and it goes over the colors.

I'm not the kind of person to work on tacting colors or labeling colors, but it's just embedded.

It's what kids learn when they're young.

And so I have a terrible singing voice, but I would always do that book because it's fun and just showing parents, too, in the home that, you know, we can't make a learner engage.

Like, I remember that particular feeling.

Family.

The second session, he had the kid in a high chair and was, like, strapped in there so he couldn't get up.

And I didn't want to shame the parent, but I was like, oh, I don't think this is gonna work.

You know, he was like, well, that's what the other speech therapist was.

And I was like, well, you know, I'm doing something different.

So, you know, working on joint attention, it's more naturalistic.

I can't make your son communicate.

What I can do is set up the in.

Like, you're talking about ABC3 term contingency.

I can set up the environment so that he does want to communicate.

And I saw so much growth with that learner.

That learner was also getting aba and I knew the bcba, so that was cool.

We got to collaborate.

But it's just such a nice way to also just build rapport with a kid and.

And have fun in therapy.

That's kind of one of our taglines I use at ABA speeches to keep things fun and functional.

Because this idea that we have to go to therapy and it's going to be terrible and all the joy is zapped out, that's just not how I do therapy.

Therapy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And not how kids want to learn either.

Right.

Like, you'll get see so much more progress from this sort of approach then.

Yeah.

Let me strap you into a high chair.

Right.

But there's people, people that practice like that.

So, you know, it's good to talk about that.

That's not how we reach kids.

I do think it's a superpower too.

For all those of us that work in with children in general, whether a speech pathologist or another profession, is that ability, like, I'm so thankful for it as a mother.

I can just come up with a new activity on the fly.

I'm so used to it.

Okay.

I got these three things.

Perfect.

Here's a good idea.

Or here's an idea.

And I think the things that a lot of adults do is like, overthink it.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Kids like, like, if you present an idea generally and like, you've thought about like a couple of their interests and you present it, you know, kids buy in.

Yeah.

And just like, try it out.

Yeah.

Be silly.

And if you're having fun, they're gonna have.

They might have fun too.

Right.

And it's like you have to, like, break down that barrier of being, like you said, overthinking and rigid and just be like, oh, this is how he's supposed to act.

It's like, no, if you flop on the floor and start snoring, they're gonna think that's hilarious.

Right?

Yeah.

Social routine.

Yeah, it's great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I often blame the farm as an example where, like, people think, okay, the cow's gotta go and eat the hay and then it's gonna go to sleep.

And that's like, even, like my typically developing children, like, hardly play that way.

Yeah.

You know, it's like, as adults, we have these weird scripts that we think are like, how you play.

Whereas I think for those of us that that are certainly working with autistic learners.

You have to get pretty creative.

And so it becomes like a superpower to, like, think outside the box and see, like, three things and be able to put this routine together.

Like, you describe lining up these stuffies and then feeding them and stuff.

Simplistic, but hard to come up with on the fly.

So super.

Yeah.

And you mentioned one of your favorite songs is Wheels on the Bus.

I love doing that too.

And I like how you said bringing the action.

And I love, love, love that.

That.

Would you say, like, another favorite song that you have just for some.

Yeah, yeah.

What.

What.

What's another one for you?

I love Old McDonald.

We lived in Texas 15 years ago, and I made these.

They're black and white, but we had Velcro and laminator.

And I was working outpatient clinic, and I still would use these.

We provide teletherapy in Washington state.

I would still use them providing therapy.

Yeah.

But I love that because for teletherapy or individual therapy, you can.

Can have all the icons out.

You can have the student hand you an icon.

When I would use this in group therapy, I would hand out, you know, a dog to this person, the duck to this person, the sheep.

And there's so much language there.

And then I sing and I say, oh, there's a sheep.

Who has the sheep?

And then the student raises their hand or they give you the icon.

There's so much communication right in that.

And we, in the connection, we have something called early intervention printable that, you know, back in the day, I made all this stuff myself, but now I have a designer that makes them nice black and white.

As long as you can print it and have Velcro.

Yeah.

I think that is such a nice way to work on those skills.

And some of the things that we find, too, with our neurodivergent learners are they like those routines.

Right.

And so if you can get old McDonald right, then maybe he doesn't have a farm anymore.

He's got a band, and we're talking about the instruments.

And then we can talk about, like, he's at the grocery store and he's buying oranges.

You can, like, sort of adapt your tune to, like, bring in, like, new language ideas and that sort of thing.

That's something we try out at the clinic if we know a kid really likes something.

Seeing if we can kind of make some slight modifications so that the expanding their language.

Oh, I love that.

Yeah.

So cute.

That's a fun idea.

That sounds like a future collaborative Instagram.

Post.

Yeah.

Never thought about that.

Old McDonald's.

Old McDonald's at a grocery store.

Yeah.

I mean, that's super fun.

Brittany will come up with a tune.

She's got a tune for everything.

I like lyrics.

Yeah.

Talking about superpowers, you know, like, some of our bts or instructor therapists will say, like, oh, I don't know how to make this into a song.

I'm like, you can make a song out of anything.

Like, put it up, put it up, put it up.

You know, just think of any tune in your head and then go with some words and then make it fun and it.

I think bringing, like, music into sessions is such an amazing way to add that joy.

And anyone listening to this podcast, and not because we.

You're not on video, can't see this beautiful instrument that you have.

And I don't know if people know this about you, but you said you don't have a beautiful voice.

I'm sure you do, but tell us about, like, you're very musical.

There's a harp right beside you.

Yeah.

You know, I just went to an Akron public grade school.

That's the town LeBron James is from.

Basketball player.

But my elementary school had a harp ensemble, so I just started playing in fourth grade and then always took lessons through college and private lessons, and my parents bought me that harp that's behind me.

And then I played games, gigs for over 20 years.

I played my last gig 10 years ago when my son was one, because I was working, running my business, and I had three kids.

Yeah.

Well, it's beautiful.

So now my girls have taken lessons, so one is still taking lessons.

Yeah.

But you're obviously very musically inclined as well.

But what we.

I mean, I appreciate it.

Yeah.

I appreciate music.

Yeah.

I'm sharing it.

Yeah.

You probably are very humble there.

But what we sort of say is, like, you don't have to have a perfect voice or the perfect songs or anything.

You know, just sort of, like, go with it and keep it going, you know?

So, like, I encourage all of our team members just, like, try sing and get comfortable singing with each other.

Yeah.

Get comfortable.

Yeah.

Being silly with each other and singing with each other, like, with your other therapists.

Because this is what we got to do to bring the joy, right?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Be the joy bringers.

Yeah.

That's our new title.

Yeah.

I love that.

This was such an awesome conversation and so rich.

I feel like talking about the collaborative practice and then even our own, just individual ideas as clinicians and what we've learned professionally.

Over the years.

And so, so thankful for your expertise and the stories that you've shared with us today.

Thanks for having me.

Oh, we just love having you.

And we'll keep sort of all coming together and saying collaboration is truly the best.

And so Speech and aba, just like ABA Speech, the name of your company, you know, we're a huge team champions for bringing together ABA and Speech.

And so we'll continue, all of us just sharing that with the world and being proud that, you know, we really are proud to say, like, it's better when we're together and we truly believe that.

So thank you for all of your wisdom and just sharing all your ideas today with us.

And then I wanted to close off with where can we purchase your book?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

It's available on anywhere you buy books.

Porchlight, Amazon, Barnes and Nobles.

Yep.

Nice.

Awesome.

And then your ABA Speech website has access to your resources.

And then your podcast is available, I assume, wherever you can listen to podcasts as well.

Yep.

ABA speech, wherever you want to find me.

LinkedIn, Instagram, our website, it's all there.

And if you're not following Rose already, you have to, because you have the best content.

So much good educational content that's so fun and like, so just like real.

I love it.

So I highly encourage you, if you're not listening to Rose, following Rose already, please do.

And we'll link everything in our show notes.

And thank you again, Rose, for joining us today.

It's such a great conversation.

Yeah, thank you.

Thanks.

Before we go, we want to remind our listeners that topics we discuss in the podcast are not a replacement for professional medical advice.

Please contact a professional if you have questions.

And just a heads up, we'll use both identity first and person first language to respect different preferences.

This we'll also see treatment and therapy since we come from a clinical space, but always with respect and a focus on what works for each person.

See you next time.

Bye.