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 Welcome to this Weekend Health it. It's Tuesday News Day where we look at the news which will impact health it. Today we talk furloughs, field, hospitals, and field reports with DREX to Ford. My name is Bill Russell Healthcare, CIO, coach and creator of this week in Health. it I set a podcast and videos and collaboration events dedicated to developing the next generation of health leaders.

This show has channel sponsors and we have episode sponsors. Our channel sponsors have been fantastic. Galen Healthcare, VMware Starbridge advisors, pro talent advisors and health lyrics have stepped up, uh, to support a Slack channel for health systems to collaborate. And they have also, uh, connected us with numerous health system leaders who have provided us, uh, field reports from the front lines.

Many thanks to our channel sponsors. Uh, this episode and every episode since we started our Covid series has been sponsored by healthcare. They reached out to me to see how we might partner during this, uh, during this time. And, uh, and that is how we've been able to support producing daily shows for the last, uh, four weeks.

So, special thanks to Sirius for supporting these shows and the, and our efforts during the crisis. Uh, it's Tuesday News Day and Drex de Ford is on the line, and we're.

I'm good. Thanks, man. I'm telling you, you are killing it right now. The content has been, uh, terrific. I watched a bunch of episodes this weekend. They're short, they're sweet, they're like compact, loaded with stuff, and the Slack channel's been great too. I have the Slack channel up on my iPad over here all the time, all day.

Watching the conversation. So thanks for doing this. It's really, it's been awesome. I think it's great for everybody. Well, I, you know, I appreciate you saying that, and I, so how, uh, how have you been keeping yourself busy? I mean, I, I have the Slack channel, the shows and, and you're now recording some shows as well, and you're doing the Slack channel.

What, what other things have you been doing? Yeah, thanks. I, you know, so we have, um, uh, I've been doing some work with David Chow on a couple of different things. And one of the things is we've set up a Wednesday, uh, call. We have about 16 health systems. We open up a Zoom, uh, a zoom meeting, and we let it run for about three and a half hours and basically have just sort of put the offer out there for.

Um, several participants to say, just drop in and unload on us, right? So come in and tell us what you're working on and what you haven't figured out and what you wish somebody would come up with and whatever. And then we write those notes up and also dump 'em into a Slack channel for the people who are participating.

And, uh, and then we, you know, we, we burn those episodes. We blow those episodes away. We don't, we don't, we record them for notes, but we don't actually keep them to broadcast. Any way that I can and, and, and like you, although I don't have it figured out, I think as well as you have it figured out, but any way that I can help, um, to, to facilitate crosstalk, I've tried to do that.

I actually was on the phone with Russ Brandel this weekend, you know, 'cause I was getting calls from CIOs who are saying, do you know, so-and-so's phone number. Uh, 'cause I'd like to talk to them and, you know, so I've, I've tried to make some of those connections. But, um, for the CHIME listeners, uh, just know that you can always call Chime and they have probably 80% of all the contacts, uh, CIO contacts that are CHIME members.

And they'll always help you make that connection. So if they, if if you call Chime and they can't help you, call me or call Bill, we'll figure it out. We'll help, we'll help make those connections for you. Yeah, absolutely. So I, I appreciate your help. We've been doing field reports. I've been interviewing, uh, CIOs for the last couple of weeks, and this week I've been asked to expand and I'm like, well, I can't expand anymore.

There's only one of me. There's only one microphone. There's only so much time. And, uh, so I, I reached out to you. You're gonna be interviewing a bunch of, uh, chief Information security officers and doing those field reports. And, um, and I'm gonna continue talking to some of the CIOs. And actually what I'd like to do is start off the show.

I, I'm just gonna do highlights of just a handful that I've done and for anybody who's been on, I'm only gonna go back for the last seven days. I'm not gonna go way back. And then if, if you could talk a little about your ciso. Interviews or, or, or even the conference call, what you're learning. That would be great.

So we had, uh, Steve, Steve Labon, uh, Steve Labon, CTO for Ochsner on, and it was a really good conversation. The thing I appreciated about him is he talked about being in it for the long haul, seven day schedules for IT planning, for backup IT staff in case they get sick. Um, and caring for the IT staff that is required to be on site.

Really good conversation. Uh, Dan Ni, your friend, Boston Children's, uh, he, he covered telehealth in, in detail. Um, the use of, of really telehealth to reduce the amount of contact that nurses are having with covid 19, uh, patients in the room. I thought that was fascinating. Uh, Nader, uh, mbi, the CI for NYU Langone, uh, I.

Uh, even though this crisis is, is distinct, he talked about how each crisis has prepared us for this. Going back to nine 11, talking about Sandy and how he, he really was prepared and I also talked with, uh, Ray Lowe and Eric Lee from Almed, and I thought the fascinating thing with that is they're, they're with a federal, federally qualified health clinic that does a, in ambulatory settings, and so they didn't.

Hey, let's throw telehealth up. Let's throw this. They had to be judicious with the, with the money, but they also had to move equally fast to their community. And those are just some of the highlights of four of the, um, you know, the most recent field reports that we did. And, uh, so, so you've, you've done your first CISO report.

What are, what are you, what are you hearing out there from a security standpoint? Well, you know, so I had a opportunity, and I, I'm assuming it'll probably come out this week, but a conversation with Mitch Parker, um, who's the CISO at Indiana University Health. And, um, you know, Mitch is great. I follow him on Twitter.

Uh, we are constantly, not constantly, we regularly are DMing each other about things that we're seeing. Um, you know, he's, I think like, uh, most organizations. Um, and, and a lot of CIOs that I talk to right now are, they have some underlying concern about all of the changes and how fast we've done so many things in the last few weeks, whether it's telemedicine or work from home or, um, you know, analytics stuff.

All, all, all the things that we've done to, to make sure we can support the mission. And a lot of that comes with, uh. Sometimes when you go really fast, you accidentally leave yourselves, landmines that you step on later. And uh, so I think there's sort of this process now of. Everybody's tried to keep really good track of all the things that they've done and how they've done them so they can go back and make sure that they haven't left any booby traps.

Um, but that's gonna be, I think, a process that folks are folks are gonna go through. Um, the other thing you talked about was just, um, the amazing amount of spearfishing that's going on right now. You know, uh, from an email perspective, uh, folks that are sending emails that have really good, great. Detailed, uh, information in the email that really makes it super tempting to click on for employees.

And, and the complications that sort of come from that come with that is that, uh, you know, you have folks working from home now and the dog's barking and the kids are yelling and there's mu music playing in the background and you're distracted and maybe there, there's a tendency to click on something that you shouldn't click on.

So, um, you know that regular . Drumbeat of be careful. There are bad guys still out there trying to get to you no matter what they say. Um, 'cause there's actually, you know, some, some good messaging out there now from some of the hacker organizations saying, we're not targeting healthcare, we're not targeting healthcare.

Um, but we know that that's happening. So, um, just, just be careful and, and I'm looking forward to some of the other ones that are coming up too. Um, I won't, I won't say who, but I know we've got some other good folks coming up on the CSO. We're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're allowed to let the cat outta the bag for some of this stuff.

But, uh, but let's get to the, I, uh, actually I'm getting a bunch of these stories. I'm. Your service? 4 8 4 8 4 8 to drex? No, that's backward. Drex to 4 4 8. Four eight because if you do the other way, it doesn't really work. Yeah, and you get those three, those three text messages during the week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

And , I do my best to get as much in as I can. Yes, I saw this. The first story, uh, is about hospital furloughs. And, uh, I'm just gonna highlight a couple of 'em. So, Bon Scores talked about, uh, they're gonna furlough any staff that aren't directly supporting the 43 hospital system. Response to Covid-19 and, uh, BON scores, uh, is, uh, they actually say Cincinnati based organization.

So I guess they, uh, decided that, that, uh. They're, uh, mercy headquarters and not the headquarters, which was in Richmond, I believe. Uh, Boston. Yeah, it's great. Uh, Boston Medical Center, putting 700 employees or about 10% of its workforce on furlough, St. CLA Healthcare out of, uh, Kentucky, uh, is putting 300 workers, Appalachian Regional Healthcare and also in Kentucky, 13 hospitals, uh, 6,000 workers.

Um, and then Baptist Little Rock. So this, uh, you know, I, I brought this story up because I think there's a lot of, uh, a lot of misinformation, a lot of concern. I know that, uh, Intermountain said they were going to do some e either staff reductions or reduction in pay, and then, uh, then you had the CEO come out and clarify that that was not the case, that they were not going to be doing that.

Um, but you know, what do, what do you make of this? What do you make of this, this story and, and the reductions that are going on? Yeah, I would, I, you know, I would say my initial reaction is, um, I. S surprise. And, uh, and, um, you know, it, it's, it's just frustrating that given the situation that we have right now, we need all hands on deck.

I understand that not everybody is involved in direct patient care and that, um, maybe you have to let some of those people. Go on furlough so that you can have the resources that were assigned to them to, to put in other places. Um, I think in three X extracts today, I said something like, uh, you know, when you treat healthcare systems like businesses, they're gonna act like businesses.

And that's exactly what's happening right now. That isn't necessarily the best thing for patients and families over the long term. I mean, I've had ACIO, you know, call me and tell me that basically they had to let their project management office staff go. They basically cut their whole PMO and, um, that's, that's a, a frustrating, dangerous, long-term problem, um, that, that we're gonna have to deal with, uh, down the road.

And it's just, um, I don't know. It's a challenge. I think it's a, a real challenge for health systems and, and for cultures too, when they start letting people, um, you know, go on on a layoff or a furlough. You know, it's interesting. I don't, I don't have any problems with them making these decisions because they are businesses today.

So they're making decisions as businesses 'cause they are businesses, right? And right. Um, you know, and there's risks. You let your entire PMO go, good luck getting 'em all back now. We don't know the whole story. Maybe they were looking at the PMO saying, this is a pretty ineffective PMOI have no idea.

True, true, true. There's always more to the story. Yeah, there's always more to the story, but you know, but healthcare is interesting. You know, we, um, can we afford to have losers in healthcare? You know, if we, if if Macy's, Macy's fails and they close up all those stores, uh, it's not really gonna have much in the way of an impact.

Although my Macy's credit card bill will be less, um. But when a local hospital fails because of bad leadership, it really impacts a community. Um, but you know, what is, what is the answer to that? Is the answer. You know, I was talking to somebody earlier today and they said, wow, it's interesting how all the New York hospitals have come together and the government's really running that thing.

Do you think New York will take the lead and become, you know, a, a state run health system across the board? And I was like. Not a chance. No, they're, I agree with you, but from a public health standpoint, what they're doing today needs to stay in place and then be built upon, which is they're sharing information on inventories, they're sharing in information on beds, they're sharing information on research.

They're, I mean, just across the board for the good of the community, by all means. Uh, let's get that done. But if we don't do this on a national basis, you know, people in New York, if they want different care, they'll just go to Pennsylvania. You know, you, you can't do it on a state by state basis. It has to be, uh, a national basis.

But today it's, it's still, it's still business. And, uh, you know, I, I, I would be speaking out of both sides of my mouth because. Episode this year I did the, uh, JP Morgan conference and I said, you know, I really appreciated the, the, uh, CEO, uh, who has done a couple mergers. Just amazingly well, a really well run business.

He's really running it well as a business, which gives him the ability to grow and those kind of things. And then a turnaround. And he does this reduction. If I were to say, well, how dare he act like a business? So he, he's, he's doing exactly what he should be doing as ACEO, I think. Yeah, I mean this isn't, you know, this isn't an unusual situation, right?

I've served on public company boards and there are times where, um, I know I've talked to friends on other public company boards who have said, we made a decision to like send everything to China, which probably wasn't the best decision for what. For the country, but it was the best business decision that I had to make as a board director because my responsibility is to make sure that shareholders maximize their value.

The, we wind up in this weird situation sometimes where what we are supposed to be doing. Uh, and what we want to do are diametrically opposed, and I think we're facing some of that right now in healthcare where we know we have to compete, we know we have to be businesses, but there are times where we need to link arms and say to hell with all that we have to, you know, we have to beat back this.

And, um, and we're seeing some of that. Unfortunately, the business aspects of this are causing us to lay people off. May eventually cause hospitals to close. Certainly we'll put some hospitals and some organizations and positions to be acquired because of the financial stress they're gonna see. Um, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of still to come from this.

I do you think I, I, I would suspect that a lot of bailout money is. Towards hospitals. Uh, and it'll be a lot of different forms. One, it look, I, I'm sitting here as a small business owner. I got my little, uh, thing in the mail today from Chase, which said, Hey, if you wanna apply for, uh, you know, the, the Coronavirus, uh, relief, I forget what it's called.

Mm-Hmm, . Um, but essentially, you know, they'll help me to pay for payroll, uh, health insurance, and a bunch of other things. During, during the crisis, uh, with a 10 year low interest loan, which could potentially be forgiven at a future date. And I'm sitting there going, okay, if they're doing that for me, you're, they absolutely are.

The largest employer in every city is the hospital. They're absolutely gonna figure out a way to make sure that the hospitals, uh, higher. And then eventually what you're gonna have is a whole bunch of money coming in from a public health perspective. A whole new series of it projects be, be built around this for sharing this information, creating an analytics framework that supports public health.

I, I mean, I see just a ton of government money coming towards healthcare. Maybe not right now, but soon. I think, I think that if we look down the road and, and you have another item on our list, uh, it's sort of the post pandemic. Uh, you know, what, what do we do? Uh, how, how do we go through the different phases and eventually come out the other side of this?

I think that in, in that article, when we talk about it, um, you know, there's some, some good reasoning behind. New capabilities that we're going to need to create to be able to face this when it happens again. And a lot of that's going to be analytics and infrastructure and those kinds of things. Um, the challenge right now I think in the near term is that, you know, when I talk to a, a.

Big health system in the Midwest who told me that they're, you know, losing $150 million a month, um, because they're canceling elective surgeries or a small hospital in the, in the, you know, middle of Ohio that says that they're losing $15 million a week because they've canceled elective surgeries. A lot of these organizations don't have big war chests.

They don't have a lot of money in the bank day's. Cash on hand isn't really a . Thing for them in any significant volume. So, um, they only have to go a really short period of time in this situation until they start looking at each other like, I don't know what we're doing. I, I don't know how we're gonna get money to whatever make pay.

That's why you see some of these hard decisions coming now. These are CFOs who are being proactive and saying, I don't wanna make sure, I wanna make sure we don't get into a situation where we don't have any options. Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting, I, I, I've called this a reset a couple times and people have started to, that started to resonate with people of saying.

Hey, you know what? When we come out of this, we're gonna look at our entire project set that we have, and I think there's some people that are still sitting there going, Hey, we're just gonna, eventually we'll come outta this and we'll just start up all the IT projects again. I'm like, nah, I think that, I think you erase the board and you start putting projects up again and say, okay, based on what we now know, based on what just happened, are, are we, are we doing the right things or have certain things taken a new priority?

Uh, and my guess is towards the second half of this year, we're gonna see a whole new set of it projects and a whole bunch that just sort of go off to the wayside. But that doesn't answer your Yes. Small hospitals, rural hospitals. Um, I, I would guess that, uh, that the federal government is gonna have to step in here, uh, because there is not a quick enough bailout.

There's no buyers during this, uh, timeframe. Uh, they're gonna, they're gonna have to prop up a lot of these, uh, a lot of these, uh, health systems. There's no, no doubt about it. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I wanted to talk to you about a, a story you put in there as well, standing up and maintaining a field hospital because you have experience doing this.

And this is a, uh, it's actually an army on the Army military site. And it's about them standing up to 250 patient, uh, army Field Hospital in Seattle. Uh, what does it take to stand up a field hospital? Uh, so, um. Army Field hospitals, uh, army medical units, uh, air Force has a version of that called Expeditionary Medical Systems.

Um, these are pre-packaged. They're usually, uh, on a fairly regular basis, uh, opened up, exercised, uh. Um, all the ex expired material or material that has, um, you know, a lifespan is refreshed and replaced and they make sure everything works and then it all goes back together and gets repackaged to be able to ship out.

Right. Whether it ships out on a. You know, AC one 30 or AC five or, you know, whatever the aircraft might be. Or it's loaded on trucks and, you know, moved across the country in the case of a disaster. In this case, that's exactly what's happened. Um, the Army Field Hospital, um. Components of it are coming from Colorado.

Uh, major components of it are coming from joint base, Lewis McCord, uh, just south of Seattle. And, um, they're setting up in the, uh, at CenturyLink Field, the home of the Seattle Seahawks. Uh, and it's just crazy to think that that is happening in my, in my hometown right now. Their intention is to take non covid patients as it stands today.

Uh, although we see, uh, even in New York right now, a lot of controversy over whether or not some of those field hospitals will take . Covid patients or non covid patients? Um, the Army Corps of Engineers are certainly here too, and they're involved in making sure that, um, they have all of the stuff they need to be able to run the utilities, do all the things that they need to, uh, to make sure that they can run a field hospital and they can actually do this pretty quickly.

I mean, I've deployed, um, 50 bed air transportable hospitals and 250 bed contingency hospitals, uh, all over the Middle East. And, um, and, uh, you can, you can get up and running pretty quickly. Uh, in, in the case of using a building of opportunity, uh, like CenturyLink Field, um, you don't have to put up tents, you don't have to, uh, you don't have to do that part of the infrastructure so they can go even faster.

Um, they're making some actual really. Actually making some really interesting modifications to the field hospital to put up sort of like privacy walls between the patients, which is something we don't have to worry about, uh, in a combat situation. Um, but they are, uh, they're making a lot of, uh, additional accommodations, uh, including just making sure there's plenty of.

Spacing between the, the beds, which again, is something we didn't necessarily have to worry about, uh, in, in rural field situations. Well, lemme ask you, and they're making great progress. I mean, they'll, they'll be up and running probably in the next few days. So lemme ask you the, the health it question. So, uh, you're dropping it in, in CenturyLink field, so you have, my gosh, it's Paul Allen's home.

So you probably have massive network going into that thing. Um, fiber optic and also, so that's not gonna be an issue. What, from a, from a data sharing standpoint? So. Let's say a patient gets transferred from UW or transferred from, um, from Swedish in, in, into this thing because they're seeing too many COVID patients.

How does the, how does the medical record follow and what, what like EHR would the military be using in that facility? This is a really good question that I don't think I know the answer to yet, and I've been asking the same question. So, um, the DOD selected, uh, Cerner as their electronic health record a year, maybe more or so ago.

And, um, joint base, Lewis McCord was one of the first deployments of Cerner. And so . I'm making sort of a theoretical assumption, and if anybody knows anything different, we'd love to hear it, that they're deploying some version or some connectivity back to JBLM, uh, to ride on a, on a Cerner infrastructure, um, or, or on a Cerner EHR.

Uh. We'll see then how the communication happens between the hospital who may have a patient that's non covid and they discharge to the Army Hospital. What comes with that patient and how does that data get there? Um, I'm assuming that . Worst case, they're printing a bunch of stuff and they're going to lash, uh, they're gonna lash a paper record to the top of the patient, and that's, uh, that's all gonna move with them.

Um, hopefully in a better case than that, they're gonna somehow figure out how to get electronic data over to the Army. So, um, I, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm staying on that one 'cause I really wanna know the answer to that question too. Well, one, the other aspect of it is the DOD doesn't have any billing functions whatsoever.

Built into the EHR is my understanding because they don't have to, there's no one to bill. So all that, that whole mechanism really probably doesn't exist in the build itself. So, I mean, anyway, it, it's, that is an interesting question, but it, it's, it's, we're seeing these field hospitals. I think one of the things we're gonna have to work on before the next pandemic, and hopefully that will not happen in our lifetime, but probably will, um.

The, uh, the coordination of these field hospitals, how they get stood up, how they get connected in how information flows around. 'cause in New York, I mean, there's a whole bunch of them and, uh, you know, some of 'em have been stood up by the military. Some have been stood up by, uh, human, uh, rights organization, not human rights.

Uh. Humanitarian, uh, organizations and whatnot. Yeah. Yep. And there's just coordination of that. Like what I, I mean the, the story I just read about the, the, the, the ship, it's the mercy or whatever that's in, in Uhhuh, , York Harbor, that some Covid patients went there and there wasn't supposed to be any covid patients going there.

So one of the things that slowed down process of coming up. It's, uh, so, I mean, just so you know, the military does Bill, so they, they're, they're definitely. Patients who are seen in military facilities who have third party insurance. So they definitely have a billing function, um, um, built into that. Um, it's, uh, it'll, it'll be interesting to see, um, so many of the rules that, uh, we've been granted exceptions to now, like, um, uh, cross state.

Reciprocity for physician licensing and things like that. Like, does that, does that ever go away at some point down the road? You know, how do they take it back? Um, that's gonna be a challenge. And when you think about all these patients moving around to all these different, um, places and being discharged to Army field hospitals, I mean, who would've imagined?

Um, you know, this is a, wouldn't it be great if there was a single patient. id, um, whatever that looks like. Um, wouldn't it be great if there was a single patient Id to be able to keep track of all these people and in the context of an epidemiological sense too, um, this, this would be a good time for us to think about how we're gonna deal with that in a few months or however long it takes.

Uh, it should be on our agenda for the near term. Well, let's do this. Uh, we're, uh, we're coming up on time, but the last story I had here was on, uh, the American Enterprise Institute, and I have no idea who they're or what they stand for, but it was an interesting story. Uh, national Coronavirus response, a roadmap to reopening, and it had four things.

Slow the spread, uh, state by state reopening, establish immune uh, protection and lift fiscal distancing, and then rebuild our readiness for the next pandemic, which was, and. Instead of going into that story because, you know, we're not physicians, I do wanna talk about, um, how we're, how we're thinking about from a health IT standpoint, how we're thinking about moving forward from here.

Right? So eventually things will slow down and this might be too early to, to really project some of this. It will slow down how much of this we . It's interesting, we've been talking about the need for digital in healthcare. For years, literally probably almost a decade, uh, the need for digital, while it just happened in, you know, four to four to eight weeks, I've now seen charts from CIOs who have shared them with me of their usage for, uh, telehealth for, uh.

You know, their usage on their portals, their usage on just a whole host of digital 30 times, 50 times increases in really short two week periods of time. Yeah. It's not, it's not even a good hockey stick. It's like an uncomfortable hockey stick. It's going up so fast. Um, yeah. And so, so that's what we've been able to do.

Is part of the role of the CIO moving forward to figure out how to sustain some of these things? Are we gonna have, uh, clearly we're gonna have to see what the federal government does. If, if those barriers come down, if they continue to reimburse telehealth, are we going to be able to sustain, uh, these, these kinds of telehealth gains that we've seen and these kinds of digital gains that we've seen over the last couple of weeks?

Uh, I, you know, I hope so. I think, um, you know, there's a, I had a conversation with a couple of CIOs the other day, and the conversation was sort of in the context of how are we gonna get all of the kids to come back to the farm now that they've been, you know, off the farm for a while. I. Me in the context of work from home in the context of telemedicine, and that was really quickly followed by sort of the, I'm not sure we want 'em to come back.

I mean, in fact, maybe, I'm pretty sure we don't want him to come back. Right now. When you think about Dan Rin talked about this in your episode two, that, um. We're not really exactly sure. There's a lot of telemedicine right now and some of that may be just a very brief check-in to sort of hold somebody off from coming in.

But they still really need to do an in-person appointment, and so we count that as a telemedicine visit, but it's not fully a replacement for what they really would like to do with the patient. There's some number of those in this telemedicine, you know, ramp up too, the hold on, and don't come in. You're good enough.

Just hold the fort. We'll talk to you again in a couple of weeks. Uh. Man, we seem to have, and I think that it's changing a lot of people's habits. Not only the doctors and not only the people who are in the health system that are working from home now, but a lot of patients too who've become really clear about, I'm not sure I wanna come to the clinic.

I mean, that's where you get sick if you go to the clinic or you get sick. If you go to the hospital, let's do telemedicine visit. That's better for everybody. I think we're gonna get a lot more consumer demand, and we've already been talking about consumerization for a long time too. Um, this has also pushed the button on that part of our business.

So there's two things. Work from home. I, I think it would be interesting to do a study, well, actually you don't even have to do the study. . We've been working from home and we've stood up just incredible amounts of stuff over the last, uh, uh, last eight weeks, right? So it has been more productive over the last eight weeks than it probably has been in the.

Um, just in terms, and that just comes from a focus Focus. Yes. Focus. Just a fine tuned focus. And we've taken away the, there was sort of a, uh, you know, the regulatory burden was lifted, lifted, obviously, and then the money issue was raised or was, was lifted. They just said, do what it takes to get everyone working from home, do what it takes to get every doctor set up with telehealth and in eight weeks we did that so we can be incredibly productive.

From working, why would we move? Why would we put people back into a situation where they're gonna commute for an hour in some of these cities? That would be nice if it was only an hour. But if they're gonna commute for an hour and they're gonna take up really expensive real estate in some building.

Yeah. Yeah. If, if we've proven that they can work this way. I, I, yeah. Well, I, you, you had, you did a, so you, the tables were turned on you the other day and Ed Marks did an interview with you and I watched that and at some point Ed said something like, why in the hell would people drive? To use a computer that doesn't make any sense to me.

And that really like, has stuck with me like that makes a lot of sense. Why would you have somebody drive for an hour to come into an office to use a computer? 'cause, because they're a knowledge worker and that's mostly what they're doing all day. I, I'm I, I'm with you. I, I think, I think kind of the last couple of weeks and this is gonna go, gonna go on for a little while longer.

It's gonna change everything. Yeah. Drex, thanks for coming on the show. It's always easier to talk through this stuff with you than to just pontificate for 30 minutes on my own. Uh, I love, I love doing this, so thanks for doing it. Thank you. Thank you. You bet. Special thanks to our sponsors. Our channel sponsors VMware, Starbridge Advisors, Galen Healthcare.

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Uh, we're gonna be back again every day this week. You're gonna hear some from Drex this week. Interviewing, uh, some uh, uh, chief Security officers, information security officers. We'll continue to do field reports as well, uh, with the, uh, CIOs. Thanks for listening. That's all for now.