Broker Listing Summaries - CIM Me Up!

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Follow and Subscribe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BizBuyersAlly

Deb’s Website: https://www.debcurtis.com/

Richard’s Website: https://richardparker.com/

#SBA #BuyAndBuild #BusinessBuyers

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where business buying banter meets no BS reality get ready to dive into the world

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of buying and selling businesses without the fluff and fancy jargon we cut

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through the BS to bring you raw unfiltered insights from industry experts seasoned entrepreneurs and no

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hold bar discussions they get straight to the point whether you're a seasoned

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business buying Pro or a curious aspiring entrepreneur this is where the

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real talk happens buckle up for headbands and handkerchiefs because in

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business there's no room for sugarcoating let's get down to the Brass

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TXS well hello everybody Welcome to headbands and handkerchiefs and I have a

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special guest on the show today because Richard was not able to join us and there'll be some future shows coming up

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where I will be Mia and uh you'll see a different guest but I am thrilled to

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bring to you Damon who many of you probably are familiar with from LinkedIn

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he is all over the place I've seen him do many many um LinkedIn live streaming

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shows my gosh Damon what what do you have I mean how many shows do you do a week I think two is that

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right we do four four okay let's let's talk about the

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shows I four I I'm thinking two how do you do four a week and how long have you

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been doing four shows a week we've been doing I think we started

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take holidays and things like that off but but um yeah I think between Kurt and

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I uh Kurt and I do Monday Monday Friday we do the manufacturing e-commerce success on Monday and Friday and then I

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do the faces of business on Tuesday and Thursday and then our other live webinars and things we've done it's

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probably been over 500 wow live streams we've done that's amazing I I that's I

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mean the statistics tell you most people are done I think after what is it 14

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shows or something like that isn't that right yeah yeah man have you tallied up

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how many guests you've had on your shows uh it's no no I haven't for sure

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but I was looking through some things the other day and I think like on the face of the business it's it's well over

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200 and I think on the the manufacturing e-commerce success it's got to be close to 200 okay all right yeah well for all

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of our um loyal listeners and viewers out there uh we have a QR code putting

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up right now with with Damon's information and you can go to his um LinkedIn profile and find on his events

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tab these weekly shows I I I think they are

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credible they offer valuable information for small business owners and the Middle

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Market business owners a lot of great uh talk in regards to just operating the

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business you bring in a a lot of guests um that add value to the operations of

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small businesses um very valuable I highly recommend your shows Dam and so

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I'm honored to have you here just talking with us and you know we talk about

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how to buy a business and helping aspiring entrepreneurs who who want to

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become a business owner through acquisition which we all know is much easier than a startup okay in my opinion

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I think it's crucial for business buyers to know how do business owners prepare

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to exit because that's part of the due diligence of a business buyer right when they want to buy a business they're

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looking at at what the current owner prepared to sell the business so um

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perhaps you can kind of give us maybe a little bit of a background how long you've been doing exit your way all the

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different avenues that you do with exit your way because you do help business buyers too right yes yes we do yes we do

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the fact though that myself and my my partner Andrew cross we really grew up

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working in investor owned companies smaller small not big huge investor own companies but you know sub 50 million

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doll kind of things where you've got manufacturing or e-commerce and things like that that we were running and and

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uh and with those investors we were buying and selling companies a lot of times and I learned early on that I I

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really enjoyed that and I really enjoyed the process of you know buying building

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and and then sell exiting the companies for those investors uh but I didn't enjoy working for the investors as much

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as I enjoyed working for individuals so that's really kind of where we got started and and actually I I thought of

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the business um 20 plus years ago after the first company I did that with built

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it and sold it with a with an investor and I said this is what I want to do I just really didn't know how I was going

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think back to I used to be a a commercial portfolio manager years ago I don't really recall

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seen many advisors out in the market speaking to that they're an exit

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advisor exit planner Maybe I'm Wrong maybe I just didn't know or maybe it's

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because we just have more baby boomers today than we did 5 10 15 years ago right so yeah well those numbers have

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been going up and I think there's there are some specialized you know when you look at Bei the business exit planning

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Institute or something like that I mean they they create some good because good folks that got that that uh knowledge on

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valuation and and the financial aspects of it they have some some good good

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education there and good good training for people that are going to do it yeah so tell

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us how where do you find or where where are business owners finding you are are

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are you seeking them or are they finding you and what does the process look like

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from the GetGo when they first make that call and say hey Damon I need some

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help tell us what that looks like usually it's it's somebody know as a

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business person right and there there's something that is not going right they

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know this person is maybe getting to the point that they either want to do

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something else they are are ready to sell their business sometimes we get people both but it's it's referral based

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we we we we do very few or very little I should say that's not the right word

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very little outbound marketing at all because we really concentrate on helping to educate as many people about the

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process of you know setting targets preparing your business for sale and going through this methodical process of

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doing it uh because in our experience it's so important yeah I think back to when I

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was a a commercial portfolio manager I would meet with small to Middle Market

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Market companies and and my market president had told me back in the day

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don't leave the office unless you know what their succession plan is or what

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their Exit Plan is and you know I I think back years ago perhaps business

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Bankers commercial Bankers were more focused on really coaching and mentoring

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business owners to plan for an exit but I think those days are are gone cuz I

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you know think Damon remember years ago we were all in brick and mortar offices and you would go sit down in an office

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or the conference room at the bank with your commercial um lender or or

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portfolio manager now granted I know we still go visit in person uh but I think

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banks are more focused on new Loan Production and bringing in new business

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to the bank that the quality perhaps of maybe a business

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business Banker or commercial loan portfolio isn't going to be as as uh

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solid as what your firm could bring so maybe as you mentioned you get a lot of referrals and Word of Mouth um I know a

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lot of business bankers and lenders will hop on these these uh lives that we have

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um you would be someone that they could Point their clients too for help in in

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this Arena right yes yes and and yeah the business

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Bankers really you know 10 15 20 especially when you go back farther than

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that I mean a lot of them were experienced business people I mean had been in business gone into Banking and

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and those kind of things and and uh as as a normal course of business but now I you know banking's has become more of a

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career path for people where they're in banking and like you said because of the demands of production exactly of closing

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that many loans doing that kind of stuff they're just not spending the time with the people in the business to really understand business as much as does this

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business set the criteria for for a loan or not and then on the other side of it the regulation has made it so much

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different for banking professionals I mean they there's no coloring Outside the Lines it either does doesn't you

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know and the and uh there's no real flexibility uh like there or not nearly

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as much as there used to be as far as you know this is this is an opportunity we really believe in I mean that just

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doesn't yeah doesn't happen very often anymore I'm thankful for like 20 30

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years ago when I first was in this industry the market president who I trained under uh he was a former

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business owner and then he was the president of the Community Bank and he knew the market he knew every business

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that was in the market and and he would sit down and uh review 32 page credit

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memos that I drafted up that would have to be presented to the board of the spreads and the ratios and all that and

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he had his red pen like a teacher and would review the memo with me in his office and circle things he's like he

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would tell me you get one shot one shot with that one sentence and one word

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could make it mean something other than what it should mean and he would send me back to my office to rewrite it again

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and this is before AI or anything was out you just had to think so um

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those days were good we we were taught we were taught well like you said Bankers were

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solid back then and there's still good ones out there don't get me wrong I just think the uh industry um similar to SBA

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lending there's there's there's an age there's a group of us and I'm I'm one of

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them that's getting up there and eventually we're going to be retired so there's got to be a lot of training of

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the younger Generations uh to come on up and understand the ins and outs of

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operating a small business and preparing uh for an exit which we often talk about

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can be the unexpected exit more times than the planned right yes certainly can

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be and that's that's one of the things that you really have to you have to think about well it's actually it's one

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of the first things when we're talking with our clients when we get started working with them it's like okay if something happens to you

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tomorrow what what is supposed to happen to your business what what do you want to happen and it's it's something we go

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over not because we want to be morbid or anything because things happen and if they haven't had this in place and sometimes they go oh this is what we're

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going to do my family knows exactly what to do okay what part do you want us to play in it blah blah blah blah blah we

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go it doesn't take that long to get that thing communicated but you know how many

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I mean I got a call two weeks ago I get calls not every week but calls often

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from people that said well my my spouse died they were the one in the business we're trying to figure out what to do

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and you know those are those are tough situations that if you ahead of that they would have said if something

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happens to me you call this person they've got the plans they know what to

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do this is in general what I what I've told them to do so you can oversee it

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they'll help you do it I trust them yeah and and that's a that's a big thing uh for people and and to do that and that

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all of this when we talk about exit planning we talk about you know building building your business to to Really

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successfully sell it and do what you want one of the things that's hard about it honestly is the psychological fact

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that we're we're if we're doing this near retirement it really

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does signify there is going to be a major shift in my life and a lot of

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people don't want that major shift MH and they put it off and and I mean this

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we just can't ignore that mental change that that people if you're going to go

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from I have a business to I want to exit it and I don't know what I'm going to do after that or I'm going to retire I know

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I'm going to retire um it's a big change and a lot of people put it off wow I I thank you for bringing that

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up they do put it off um how how do we break that though I mean I I what taught

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by that market president for the longest time don't leave unless they tell you they know what their succession plan is

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contingency plan Exit Plan and I'd say 98% of the time they didn't want to talk

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about it I'm not worried about that right now um there was always I don't have time for that right now and and

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then I go back in the following quarter I don't want to talk about it they would always put up their hand like No And

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they knew the question was coming because when I did joint call calls with my market president I would get written

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up so to speak if I didn't ask seriously he was strong because there was a loan a

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liability on the balance sheet of the bank and we better know what's going to happen to that business if something

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happens to the owner so it's stuck in me to ask those questions

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but have we moved the needle over the years have we improved now I can tell

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you my business buyers have to put together a business plan and I have to make sure there's

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that succession contingency plan in the business plan on day one yeah do they follow it though do

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they pull it out and review it annually I don't think so what do you

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think oh I think you're right I think you're right and I don't think we've made much change in this um in educating

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owners than the need for preparing exit plans because

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honestly the business brokerage industry is not effective yeah I mean

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to in it's in it's a sell as is where is at best I mean that's that's really when

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you look at anything sub I don't know 5 10 million in in price tag on a business

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um you're a business owner could come to me and I could say your business is

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worth $50 and he said no they could say no I don't want to I don't want to sell my

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business for $50 I need $100 and three other uh business brokers would line up

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and tell him exactly what he wanted it's worth a $100 it's worth a $100 even if it's not and um because a lot of a lot

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of business brokers are listing Brokers I mean they're trying to get listings that's what they want because they know that if I get enough listings I'm going

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to sell enough businesses in a year that I'll be be able to make money and that I

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mean that fundamental fact is what I think really

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hurts the that exit industry selling a business industry overall

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because if your business is not going to sell because it's not prepared it doesn't matter if I tell you if it's

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worth $100 or if F it's worth $5 uh it's not going to sell and it's a binary

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decision I mean when there are things that are wrong as see them as as coming from the buy side right you're going to see Brokers that are go oh well we can

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adjust this and that and make the numbers look a lot better and yeah if you find somebody that's

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that's uh not working with someone that can actually educate them on what the numbers you know to ask the questions

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about what really you know is this a solid business and those kind of things you might get away with it but your

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chances of ever selling something um like that are very low and and then even

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worse and when when it's un it's not sellable like you know if I'm the the brains in the business and when I walk

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out you know all my 50 years of knowledge or whatever in this industry

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doing this specific thing goes out the door and nobody else on the team knows how to really do it I mean those are the

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kind of things that just kill businesses whether it's a million dollars or 20 million but the business brokerage

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industry largely overlooks that and just goes right to the dollars and says okay if they make 50 bucks they're worth this

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much you can multiply and and doesn't look Beyond it and you know there's just so many things

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beyond that that really control whether it's going to sell or not right on I've

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seen plenty of listings where they have the set price but yet they don't have

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the proof of the addback I'm like what what how can you have a set price and why is it even on the market yet if we

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we you don't even have the cash to prove for the bank that it can be added back

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um well yeah you hit one thing sorry go ahead you go ahead that that was my

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comment well it was getting it was getting me going because this is the one thing that kills me when I when when

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you're talking to somebody and okay let's go back to the example where you came to me Deb and you said hey I want

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to sell my business said great it's worth $50 Deb and the next person down the street said it that the broker down

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the street said it's worth a 100 and you go with that broker down the street because they said 100 did they really

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even go look to what cash flow what your what level of loan your cash flow would

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support for the business did they look at what your working capital was in your business or anything like that or your

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performance in the field and how you you know if you got 75 bad Google ratings

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and all this kind of stuff that really makes a difference in business anymore or did they just say what you wanted to

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hear so they could get a listing and I mean I I can't say it enough the math is a

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math yes what a business is worth it's it's how much cash flow there is is the

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most important factor in driving the value of a business and and and cash flow not in

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for example real story here I had a deal a couple years ago and the seller did a

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bunch of um Home Improvements using the cash from the business on his

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million-dollar home he did a complete UPG which is fine it's acceptable but

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you got to prove it and it was listed on the market with the ADB backs you know

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there were some one-time discretionary expenses and and the broker promised me

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it was a broker who I trusted that yep we we have the proof it took

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us probably two months to get the the seller to come up with the proof and the

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proof was just a word do with just typed information I no

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receipts no nothing just now maybe he did spend the money but he didn't keep

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the records he and that's the kind of stuff you would teach these business owners I mean can you do it well yeah

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you can but you better pay for trail and have the right eligible proof that the

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bank will accept we creating a Word document saying I spent money on this I

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spent money on that not going to happen we need bank statements we need copies of checks front and back that it came

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out of the business checking account you know we need a paper trail that the invoice was in the business

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name you know it gets serious with banks and we're talking you know up to in the

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SBA land up to $5 million transactions that that they're putting an approval on

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there better be cash and they're going to want to prove it and it's sad because

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as you know many Brokers not all but most I have to say most because I've

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been doing this long enough they're not ready these listings are not ready or

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they shouldn't even be put on they should be working with folks like you and your team Damon and that's going to

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take probably two to three years to turn it around to get it to where it needs to be it's not a six-month turnaround these

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businesses to prove that they're eligible at the banks to get the financing um and I think that's that's a

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short sell that a lot of these Brokers have well we'll fix it we'll turn it around you're GNA keep that listing on

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the books for two to three years and turn it around I don't think so I don't yeah just it's just they they

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don't sell I mean they they simply I mean look at the numbers what is it 20% of the businesses sell 15 20% of the

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lower Middle Market businesses ever get sold or something like that you know talk listen to mikee finger who who's

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gone into real depth into it he thinks it's even way worse than that because of the you know you go let look at his math

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and it's it's much better but um yeah it just is i t I can't tell you how many

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people I talk to that say Hey I want to sell my business blah blah blah they're talking to me and I'm listening to them

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and I start asking them about their business and this and I said you know if I was you I wouldn't even try to do

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that and they're like well don't you sell businesses yeah sell businesses

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but I also know what's probably right for you and if I was in your situation this is what I would do and I'll I'll I

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just explained to a guy last week he called me had a he had a moving company been a great company for him him and his

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family um you know like a lot of these companies put put their kids through

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college they've been able to you know create a nice living around it and kind

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and this and that but when he told me about the business it was centered around him his wife was the accountant

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for the business and they had a few employees and I I said well there's

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really not a lot to sell other than you've got some employees and you got some relationships

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with with uh these people that this that were Contracting with them to move and I

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said if I was you sitting there you know and knowing what I know and I'm you and I knew what

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I knew I said I would call three of my friends that I've known for 20 years in the market that I trusted I would say

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listen are you interested in buying this I said because if you are Let's Make a

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Deal and let's do it and do it right because you can go onto the market they can set you can sign up something for a

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year with somebody and they're going to tell you just what I told you today it's very

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dependent on you uh you got too many family members in the business and uh um

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it's not that valuable but if you go to one someone you know in the industry that you respect and maybe they're a little younger or whatever they're ready

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for this to growth and they're in a growth phase you might be able to to get a reasonable amount of money out of it and it's going to be a lot less hassle

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for you um the other thing I tell people a lot of times is prepare for an orderly

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liquidation run it until you don't feel like running it anymore and then sell

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off the equipment do that kind of stuff you don't I mean think it is so much easier to do

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those two things or or do the first try to sell it to somebody you know and then

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do an orderly liquidation like in that gentleman's situation or just prepare to close your business down I think it's so

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much easier than I'm going to go to somebody that's going to tell me they probably can sell it I'm gonna do all

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this work I'm gonna get I'm gonna get them financial information we're going to work through this and Lord knows if they're going to do anything good with

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that or not or they're just going to throw it up and then I'm going to get these little nibbles I'm going to get these nibbles somebody's interested they

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talk ah they're not interested somebody here talk oh they're not interested and that'll go on pretty strong for the

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first 90 days or so and that'll tap her off and then you're going to go wow what's that broker really doing oh this

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then they'll do something else and you'll get a nibble here or there and pretty soon you're eight months down the

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road and you haven't gone anywhere you wasted eight months of your life you could be I mean if you were thinking

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about orderly liquidation or I'm going to try to do this with a buddy you know somebody that I knew on the industry I

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that's the kind of thing that in six months you're in and out yeah you can decide you're going to sell get out do the best you can or not sell but you're

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going to do an orderly liquidation get out you can talk to the six people you know in the industry you trust in your area do that I mean there's so many

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options for you that that might be better than selling in those situations

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because if you're going to prepare your business for sale it's a lot of work you really got to understand how much work

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you're going to do because to really sell your business it's got to be Beyond you you it's got to be able to generate

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some value without you so that means you know if you're the best salesperson if

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you're the best technical person in the business or the only in those it's

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incredibly hard to sell your business and it's just you got to really if you want to if

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you want to build your business and sell it you got to prepare like you said it's going to take you two to three years but

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in those two to three years you can triple quad rle the value of your

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business by doing the right things worthy investment hands down worthy investment but but engaging an exit firm

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like yours sooner than later that's the key um I'm afraid too many of them wait

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till things get so out of hand that it's almost Beyond repair and those are the kind of stories we see Mike finger put

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up you the ones that are just beyond repair and that's the message I know you

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and I would hope to get out just for anyone out there listening is the time

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is the moment you acquire a business it to to plan an exit it just is and it's

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not something that you just do and and then put it in your dust drawer and

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ignore it for the next five to 10 years you you have to be meeting what annually semiannually what

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do you think I mean I think at least twice a year to check in yeah yeah yeah

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it's it's one of these things where if you're really I mean for our kind of clients when we're working on we meet weekly and monthly nice mean weekly see

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how it's doing with with dashboards and other kpis we're doing with them yeah but then monthly to go over kind of like

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a board presentation but you know if you're an individual and you're not really looking at if you if you don't get into business to go I'm generating

28:53

wealth what's that mean okay first of all it means I'm I'm paying myself a a

28:59

living wage to work into this business and now I'm going to okay how am I going to generate the wealth I want I mean you

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really got to go through those phases in the business otherwise you just got a job and if you just have a job that's

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cool if that's what you want to do that's fine you can work for yourself you know we see them all around you got

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your your uh plumber your electrician your your your landscaper that they've

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got their deal that's what they love doing and that's what they do that's fine don't expect to sell it at the end

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just because it's made you a living it doesn't mean it's going to be good for anyone else that's right that's right

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would you um have listings that aren't on the

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market that you know in your mind the owner does want to sell at a certain

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time and do you take eligible as aspiring buyers that

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might want to know not that you would give them the info but is there any kind of information that can be shared with

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interested buyers because they're always asking me where else do we go besides

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the market that's just full of crap sorry just being

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blunt you know I when people come to me and talk to me about buying a business I said the toughest thing is finding the

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business that you would want to buy yeah and I don't know how to get around that we and with us we're not a volume place

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right so when you work with than a couple handfuls of businesses we don't have them ready all

30:31

the time yeah in fact we've got what one or two now that are actually on the

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market and um but the vast majority aren't and won't be for a while takes

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some they need the time they need the time to get it right and I mean because you look at it from that owner's

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perspective oh yeah it could be pushing the business out right now but if the

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timing is a big deal of it not having the the business business set up right is a huge part of it and yeah it's and

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that's the other thing is when people come say I want to S my business now are you sure is it in is your business in

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the right cycle is the economy the right cycle all these kind of things that have to come together so

31:14

wow well this is a forever conversation that has been ongoing um with many of my

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peers in my industry and and in banking still waiting for the magic moment where

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it will improve and I'm hoping the younger Generations will learn from the

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hard mistakes of some of the older Generations uh but there are some gems out there indeed you know there are some

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good ones and uh I would much rather want to buy a business that that Damon

31:44

coached the owner over the last two to three years how to prepare it for an

31:50

exit because you know darn well there's going to be value in all of the different areas that you look at um no

31:57

surprises you'll know that business inside and out so where you know talking to a listing

32:04

broker sometimes it's like deers in the headlight when I ask them questions they don't have a clue they don't have a clue

32:10

and then he ask the seller and they don't even know so it's crazy yeah um yeah yeah

32:18

well I just want to thank you for sharing some insight about exit your way and and what you do we need more um I

32:26

support your post on LinkedIn and I say that a lot we need more Damons and Mike

32:31

fingers we need more more of you exit planners in the world um to really coach

32:38

up business owners it's not too late two years goes by fast uh I actually have a

32:45

couple lenders that will consider financing a change of business ownership

32:51

as long as the most recent filed year fits the debt service coverage and

32:57

year-to dat current year um so that's not bad that's probably a good at least

33:02

two years of of a good Financial record of course all the other good stuff key

33:08

employees and vendors and diversity of your AR and all that good stuff um but

33:15

two years goes fast so yes it does and all of these years that have gone by

33:21

thinking of the business owners that I sat at the desk with my president they're still working in their

33:29

business they're not working afar just overseeing it and they'll

33:38

retire with not much income right yeah it's big difference yeah

33:44

so any closing remarks or that you would like to share with the

33:50

listeners well you know don't I mean

33:55

the there is a immense value in preparing your business for sale don't take it from me don't don't just talk to

34:03

people that have sold a business talk to people like you Deb looking at from the other side how much of a difference it

34:08

makes um because you really need to know you're you will waste a year and not

34:15

sell a business if it's not ready and there's a lot of other Alternatives or taking the time to prepare and and

34:21

actually getting successfully out of your business is is uh

34:27

less effort overall I think or less heartache maybe that's right overall I I

34:33

would like to add in closing any business listing that I look at with

34:41

qualified buyers that actually passes Bank eligibility and SBA eligibility it cash

34:48

flows it checks off all the boxes that we look for one common theme that I see with

34:55

these business owners that have eligible business

35:01

listings there's an expense in their financials usually Consulting management

35:07

expense something like that and I'll question what it what was that expense and it's usually a business advisor a

35:14

business coach an exit planner that they engaged a couple of years ago and

35:22

every time I see that expense line item Damon that business is selling and it's

35:28

selling for a good dollar and the buyer is very happy and it's it's a wonderful

35:33

transaction they really do happen so my closing remarks would be for all the

35:40

listeners out there engage in credible exit planners

35:47

before you sell the the business brokers like Damon said earlier they just list

35:53

they don't coach they don't Mentor they're not on your side for two years years three years they're just listing

35:59

because that's how they earn their income start early on on in the process

36:05

and take it from me I review these listings weekly and I say no a heck of a

36:10

lot more than I say yes and the yeses are because of the value and the return

36:16

on the investment of an exit planner I can't stress that enough I talk about it a lot in in my posts and my replies but

36:25

yet some of these owners will spend money on a brand new Tesla and park it

36:31

in the front parking spot in front of the manufacturing company and show it off to everybody but they don't want to

36:37

talk about exit planning but they got a damn good-looking Tesla sitting in their parking lot and it just and I I would

36:44

walk past these vehicles and they'd shut the door on me saying I don't want to talk about that but you got a nice

36:51

car so thank you Damon I I um I appreciate appreciate all the work you

36:57

do for small business owners and the Middle Market ones as well we need more

37:02

of you and for all the business buyers out there really consider when you acquire a business to engage in exit

37:11

planners out of the gates and if you want to know some I've got the contacts

37:17

and Damon is one of them he's in my top three for sure so thank you so much for joining us

37:23

and for the work you do and I hope one day when we retire the newer Generations

37:30

will see value in exit planning I certainly hope so as well

37:35

thanks for having me here today absolutely Damon take [Music]

37:47

care