Twelve years in consulting, senior management track, solid income and Shivani walked away from it all. 

Why would someone leave a successful corporate career to start over in interior design? We sat down with Shivani, founder of Madison Interiors to understand her transition from consultant to founder of a sought-after interior design business.

For anyone contemplating a significant career change, Shivani's journey offers practical insights. Fear of failure is normal, but redefining success on your own terms is liberating. Your existing skills often transfer in unexpected ways, and daily practices like visualisation can create real momentum.

LINKS:

Madison Interiors: https://madisoninteriors.com.au

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/madison.interiors_/

Connect with us on Instagram:   @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:   www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website:  www.carlandconstructions.com/

Shivani, you've shared that moving from a 12 year consulting career

to launching your interior design business was transformative.

And the biggest hurdle wasn't external.

By your own mindset, what is the single most potent belief or fear you

had to confront and dismantle within yourself to make that transition?

and once that specific mindset barrier finally crumbled, what

was the first tangible shift that you noticed in your reality?

I think my biggest fear was, whether I would be successful and

my, probably my second fear that came up was, what will people say?

Like what do people think

successful?

What do you define successful for?

Literally just about to

ask that.

What is success to you?

Yeah.

Well, I had to sort of unpack that.

I think when I was making the decision, it had to do with I think money mindset.

So I left a pretty lucrative, position I was in senior management, I was in a

trajectory to sort of, you know, if I wanted to keep going down that consulting

path to make it to the, you know, the most, two most senior positions in.

like in that career path and what consulting?

Yeah.

What,

what were you doing?

Yeah, so I was working, in the, Canberra based consulting firm.

I left after seven years, but I was a senior manager there working

in risk governance and assurance.

so that was providing services to the federal government.

yeah, so leading team.

So Very different.

I had, there's a real clear linear path

from this.

I was gonna say it's like.

Super left train is that Ford personality, man.

Yeah, it was.

So go.

Just like I think.

By the end of it, I realized that I was, you know, obviously I had the

qualifications, the experience working in, in business and commerce and that

acumen, business acumen that I, that I learned through, you know, running

those firms as a senior manager.

Um, they, it was all meant to be.

I was, I was supposed to pick up those skills and I was supposed to

go down that path, but that wasn't where I was supposed to be like.

In the long term.

So yeah, it definitely has shaped the type of business leader I am.

Like I'm very sort of, driven by systems and process and making sure that,

that those, systems within my business are really streamlined and operate.

That's a very

interior design trait.

you know what, and we're gonna get to what you do 'cause we kind

of haven't really touched it, but you are an interior designer.

But I would love to know growing up, like did you have this creative design

flare or did you kind of feel like.

Your trajectory was, well, you had to go to university and you had to

do this, and you had to do that.

Like, was that part of something that was ingrained in you early

and you kind of had this innate desire to, to do something creative?

Was that always has, has that always been there?

I think so.

I think like as a child though, I don't think I was probably

encouraged to explore it as much as.

I guess I gave myself permission to like, later on in life.

So when I, I think I could think back to when I was a child and like my best friend

in year one, or I think it was year two, we used to sort of like, you know, dream

about what we'd grew up grow up to be.

And we both decided we wanted to be fashion designers and

that was like our brand.

We used to draw like amazing.

You know, dresses.

That's probably one of my earliest memories of being creative.

and I always loved art throughout like high school, music, and I wasn't an

actual musician, but I, I was always inspired by music and, you know, like

if I wanted to, what type of music, this could make or break the conversation?

Oh, no, I, I, I've always loved r and b and hip hop, but I love, you know, I

think when I was at uni, I. there was an elective that I wanted to do, which was

African drumming, and I was like, wow.

I was really worried, what that would look like on my transcript.

So, because I was going for you know, a job in these major firms.

Okay.

Yeah.

And

I was like,

Ooh, this is my creative side popping out.

Matt studied, he went to university.

The same question I'm gonna ask.

I went to university right?

Yes.

And my wife also went to university.

Mm-hmm.

Now, my wife was always, a, a fantastic variety.

She was growing up, was quite creative and very intelligent.

Ended up going down, you know, environmental science path and

she's now a landscape designer.

Yeah.

And so she's gone back into what she's passionate about, I guess.

Yeah.

And I guess

we talk about passion a lot and you kind of, you life kind of puts you in.

Place sometimes where you just find where you should be.

Yeah, definitely.

And I, I know for me the building site was that?

Yes.

I dunno if about if it was that, that was how it was for you.

I think

where like, so I, I didn't enjoy being at Carpenter.

I did a degree in science and nutrition before.

I think where I'm at now is what I wanted.

Yep.

I wanted to do something that kind of hadn't been done is where passive

house come into it, but then do more.

And educate.

And I think that I'm now probably at the stage of what I actually, the goal was if

I really start to pick it apart, I knew when I started a carpentry apprenticeship,

that's not what I wanted to be.

I knew when I became a builder, that's what I wanted to be,

but not what I wanted to be.

And then it was like, what's next?

Yeah, interesting.

'cause I, I still love creating.

Yeah.

Like last weekend I made some gates.

Out of reclaimed timber for my vegetable garden.

That's super creative.

I was just like, in the zone was in my element, in my zone.

Five hours just went, yeah.

But now I can't be on site's this,

so this is the difference.

But like, yeah.

So you love still being involved in the tools?

I can't do it.

Like I just, it's not, I'm not good at it and I realize I'm not good at it.

Yeah.

Where I think you probably still have the skill to do it.

Yeah, I love it.

So, so I don't have the time.

What did you study?

Uni?

So I studied commerce, accounting.

accounting was my major.

smart

cookie.

I've actually probably evolved a lot through my teenage years

and then into accounting.

But where I started as a teenager, trying to make that decision of what to

do with, you know, when I grow up was.

I actually 'cause at 13,

14, and 15, we are in the best mindset to make.

Yeah, lifelong decision.

You're not getting your first kiss, let alone you.

When I was 15, I wanted to be a pilot.

Okay.

So I, my dad sent me to flying school.

I actually came down to Victoria to do some flight training.

I learned how to fly.

A Cessna one 50 at like 15.

Wow.

Was your dad a pilot?

No.

Okay.

He just was supportive of my wild dreams.

That sounds amazing.

So I was a bit of a dreamer and I still am, and he just said yes to

things, which he really encouraged me to just like not have limits.

and I love that and appreciate him.

And, then I decided when I was 18 that a pilot career probably

doesn't like allow you to have like.

A family and that was really important to me to kind of be there and like

be present as like a, as a mom that's sort of gonna be on the ground.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I sort of pivoted a little bit and was like, oh, what could I do that would,

you know, kind of provide a nice life for my family, like one day when I have one.

and then I decided to go to uni.

I tried something which didn't quite fit.

I wanted to sort of like try to get into radiography.

Okay.

And then I started a science degree, didn't enjoy it.

I was in Sydney.

I had moved to Sydney away from Canberra.

And you've always been Canberra

based.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I started uni in Sydney, made a decision to change degrees.

and then I was on a path to do, commerce.

I was really good at it.

I was smashing out uni.

I had a part-time job.

I was having a great time.

so uni was great.

and then I got a grad role, in.

Like in, back in Canberra.

So I had applied for some vacation placements, got a job ticked

all the boxes, so to speak.

And I was, you know, I think like when you're in your twenties,

that's your definition of success.

And you know, I sort of was on the path that would, that was projected

out for me in those firms, which was do post grad study, climb

the ladder, did all those things.

like I had two kids, still didn't feel.

That fulfillment that you're supposed to feel when you're like, oh, I've made it.

Like, you know, I had like, I was just, I don't feel like I was like enjoying it

and it was actually really hard as well.

Like it was a really stressful job at times.

high pressure environment sometimes.

And yeah, just balancing it with two young babies was not easy.

But, then I started to.

I do some design work on my new build project and I was just

' cause 'cause you were building your own home, weren't you?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it was actually during like the first or second COVID lockdowns

that, we started our build.

So there was like a whole month of tools down in construction at the time,

and that's when we demoed our house.

so it was very sort of like, unknown time for everybody in that industry.

and we did our new build and it was.

It was so much fun, like I had, that was my happy place in a time where

everyone was so like uncertain and feeling nervous and feeling anxious.

I would just go to the building site and I was like, I'm so.

Did you change careers in COVID?

Is that what you were

after?

Yeah.

you wanted like That was a major change.

It was a

huge shift during that building period.

where we, I was actually on maternity leave, so I wasn't at work and.

And experiencing that, how do we run our teams, you know, remotely.

It did affect me when I went back to work and I had to operate in

this new normal a little bit.

I dunno, I went back to work part-time, had two my, had my kids, on

my myself.

So.

So you had young kids at the time?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I actually just made an, you know, I took permission to.

Work three days a week, have my kids for one day a week with me, and then

one day was dedicated to my dream.

When you say, when you say creating the dream,

when you say you took permission, was that permission from yourself?

Oh, I just think, you know, I think when, yeah, it is.

Because it was a really interesting choice of words that, yeah.

Taking Because you're taking permission.

'cause you're taking permission from

your reading.

My notes.

Yeah.

So taking permission to.

Like, do something for myself.

So whether

you're a child, you are probably a little bit more risk averse.

Yeah, I think so.

Then you've gone into a job that is about managing risk and being risk averse.

Yes.

And then you decide to make a jump and do the complete opposite and

start your own interior design business, which is Madison Interiors.

Yes.

That is completely opposite thing.

That is high risk.

Yeah.

How does that set, how do you change that?

I think I really needed to rewire my brain.

when I made that career change, it was about, challenging my absolute core

beliefs around, risk and money, and.

Happiness at work and all those things.

So I kind of unpacked that a little bit through some personal development work.

but definitely I've learned to actually understand how to use your

mindset in order to sort of execute some big visions and transformations.

so now I kind of have that skill, like I know if I want to make a big change or I

want to go for a big goal of mine, how to.

Frame your mind and, tap into that source of power that you have

within you to be able to get there.

most people don't have never really sort of, practiced those skills,

learned some skills, read books or learned about those kind of, skills.

I would call them skills, but it is a little bit woo woo, so

I would call it manifestation

or so I would love to know how you got there.

Do you think it.

Came from experience.

Do you think it came from the time in your life, or do you think it

came from, I mean, I don't know how old you are, but I won't ask.

Do you think it came from you thinking, you know what, we have got

such a finite time on this planet.

Yeah.

That, fuck it.

I'm gonna go and do something that I like.

Did you, did you go and do courses?

Did you, yeah.

Could you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah.

I definitely knew that.

I think even when I had changed my mind about my pilot's career

that I was like, even if I do this kind of, business career, it may

not be the only thing I ever do.

Like, it's almost like I knew that I was gonna have a career

change, like when I was 18.

I'm like, I'll do this for a little while.

I'll see how I go, who knows where, where life goes.

So I've always had probably a more flexible view of how

a career spans in your life.

So I wasn't sort of rigid that I would be an, like a

consultant or accountant forever.

kind of my mindset at the start of my career.

But I also, I did, I think like when I was on that maternity

leave, I came across a course, read lots of books around manifesting.

So I learned basically, you know, six or seven step course.

or process or formula to, manifest something big in your life.

could, can you talk us through some of those steps?

I, yeah, I'm, I'd love to know.

Go for it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

So step one.

I love this.

All right.

Step one is about being really clear on like your vision.

so that's like, what's your desire?

Write this down, man.

Step one, this.

Yeah.

Getting clear on your desires.

So.

I do like a daily manifestation meditation to just like, it asks the

same questions, but the answers in your brain are always different, right?

But you are, once you do that every day, first thing in the morning,

like you get really crystal clear on like what that, what the desires are.

And some of them are short term, but some of them are really big.

so I think that's, that doing that first thing in the morning is now

an absolute, like, non-negotiable.

It's what I do when I wake up.

so, and just writing it down, like brainstorming and brain dumping,

like every morning, that's what I do.

Yeah.

and that creates like a vibration around, how excited you are

for that thing to happen.

so the next step is you'll always come across like limiting beliefs.

So, whatever is going through your head that's challenging you to go, Hmm, not

sure you are, you are quite there yet, or, Ooh, you're not good enough to do that.

It's like.

You need to actually write down those limiting beliefs and

like

delete them.

So

like physically, like cross them out?

Oh no,

it's not about deleting them, like on the page.

It's, there's actually a lot of, you could do physical stuff with that,

but some people have really core limiting beliefs around you know, that

they're not good enough to do this.

You're not smart enough to do this.

You are, you know, one of the limiting beliefs that I had was you need to

have interior design qualifications before you start your business.

Um, and I was like, well, I wanna start it now.

And I decided, well, I've got a few qualifications and I, I'm ready

and I'm gonna start my business.

And I studied at the same time.

And I actually studied and finished in my first year of my, running my business.

Wow.

So, so you're,

you're a qualified interior designer Yep.

As well.

Yeah.

But I, but, but what you do have is all of this past experience.

Yes.

All this life experience.

All this life experience.

Um,

yeah.

And I did some, I, so I did a, a course to learn how to do

all documentation and modeling.

And then I went into my interior design certification.

Um, and I feel like that for me was my logical flow to do my, you

know, to do my work in my business.

And I had a great, you know, I had foundational business skills from

a previous career for 12, 12 years.

So I was confident and I was super happy that I finished

the um, design course as well.

But um, that was one of the core beliefs that I had to unpack and break down.

'cause there's no rule.

So you know, if I wanna start a business, I can.

Yeah.

Um, and yeah, so, so that was one of the core beliefs that I unpacked.

Another one was, you know, the safety that you have around money as a, you

know, a qualified or a consultant.

So I was making good money and consulting.

I was moving into uncertain territory around how much money I would make.

I kind of had to unpack some limiting beliefs around my self worth being

attached to how much money I made.

Yeah.

So I was, and I'm like super proud to be a designer and I'm making great money,

but I wasn't always in my first year.

And so having that mindset around, well, I am successful based on a whole

bunch of, factors and metrics and one of them is financial, but also

like my happiness and how much time and flexibility I have with my kids.

Yeah.

and how much personal growth I have because of being able to feed, my desire

for new skills and learning and networking with people who are like-minded.

So, yeah.

What I love

about this is that it's like the same story that you hear

from so many people who have.

Changed career taken, you know, taken the jump to do something

that they've always wanted to do.

It's, I'm, I'm not saying that your story's not unique, but it, but it,

but it is unique in its own way.

Yeah.

But like, I know for me too, like the evolution of me personally from, you know,

manager at Kmart to being in retail for so long, to university to, you know what?

I want to be a carpenter then a builder.

And now like you, like I want to educate, I want to help people.

And kind of using my business as a vehicle to be able to do that.

Yeah, I think that's so great.

I have like, we, we have no

right to sit here

doing.

No, you've gotta take, and this is, it goes back to it's risk.

It's it like, it goes back to, yeah, the whole risk conversation, which just,

which I find ironic you were so, I'm

like, I've flipped risk on its head and Yeah.

So second step was limiting the lease.

The third, and so can I,

this where I wanna stop you for a second.

Yeah.

Because at the start you said you're worried about what

people would think of you.

Mm-hmm.

What do you think people thought of you?

I think they think or they thought that I was crazy.

What

if they think you, what do you think they think of you now?

are

you still crazy?

No.

I think they think that I'm happy and I'm bold and I'm brave, I don't

know, but I feel like people do feel like, wow, you're so brave to have,

like, you know, like you, you're an extraordinary kind of person that

not everybody has that ability.

But I feel like everybody has the ability, they just haven't

learned how to tap into it.

So my following

question quickly is then what do you think of you now of yourself?

I'm proud.

I'm happy.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

I don't think that's what I wanted to get at.

I don't think I'm super normal or extraordinary.

I think I'm a normal person.

Like do,

do know What's interesting from where we are sitting now is that we only

know each other from social media.

I only know you as a, I know.

As a, as a designer, right.

And now I'm actually learning about the past.

Who was the person?

You.

Yeah.

Like, you know, the who, who you used to be or, yeah.

Or not even who you used to be, but the journey, the different, the

different things that you did, the

context around where you, the context around where you are now, who you are.

So,

so I see you as an interior designer.

Yeah.

And, and well, up until right now, you didn't know that story.

I didn't know the story.

So I guess what I'm trying to get at is, if you want something.

You put yourself out to the world as that thing, people will

then relate you to that thing.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then your story is your story.

Your journey is your journey.

Yeah.

You have to be brave enough to, like chase whatever that goal is or that dream or

you know, whether it's a change in your career or if it's, you know, a big project

that you're trying to sort of execute.

If you kind of clear on, yeah, if you're clear on who, what.

You know how that kind of, the how is actually not that important, but

yeah, like the specifics, you know, and the why and tapping into the emotions

around the why is really important.

So, yeah, I think I'm, I. I don't flip around on a lot of things that I want,

I'm really crystal clear if I'm going into, you know, chasing my next big goal.

I, because I listen to my intuition and my thoughts every day around

that, it becomes crystal clear.

I think maybe it's because I actually make time to dream.

So I, I make time every morning before I have like a bit of a

morning routine and I know that like.

There's a, you know, pros and cons and people kind of have their, own,

opinions about morning routines.

Mine's not super strict, it's just that I will wake up and I have a coffee, 'cause

coffee wakes me up and makes me feel good.

And I will sit there and I'll just manifest what I'm do, what

my big goals and my dreams are.

And I just write like big clouds of mind maps every day.

Is that every day?

Yeah, I do.

So motivated.

And I just list out any limiting beliefs and I write affirmations.

So I think the third step in kind of what I was, talking about

before was, a higher vibration.

So tapping into emotions around your big goals.

'cause I think what motivates me every day to kind of get up and be

in my business and to be a great designer, but also kind of chase my

own personal, big dreams and goals is.

I know what they are and I've written down and I know the feelings around how, you

know, what that, what that means to me.

And so I'm chasing that feeling.

I'm not chasing the goal, if that makes sense.

'cause I'm oh, I imagine what that would feel like when I, you know, land that

project or, you know, execute on that vision or, you know, and I've got lots

of them, but I won't go into all them.

Whatcha are you chasing

now?

What's the biggest thing you're chasing?

Because I feel like interior designs are very endless.

Kind of have control of what might go into the project, but

if it's not your own house.

Yeah, you've

probably gotta learn to like, I don't like that the client likes

it, but that's what they want.

And

Yeah, but that, but that's just understanding your client though.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's just

really getting to know your client, which I'm sure you have a process that you

follow, and it sounds like you're very systemized and process driven person.

You, you get, you learn who your clients are and you, you work out what their

needs are, and then you give them, put something in front of 'em that

you think best relates to that brief.

Yeah as my business is starting to establish more and more, we do

service like different styles and it's really the client brief is

the style of the house that we will design for our clients, the interiors.

I think what's starting to develop is, as you evolve as

a designer, you are obviously honing your own kind of aesthetic.

I don't specifically, attract clients in only one domain or one aesthetic.

but I do find myself creating more of a brand around, a few different styles, but

they're mainly those styles, gravitate towards organic natural finishes.

connected to nature is kind of the aesthetic.

It's not so much like.

I think the styles that I'm developing more of an affinity for would be

coastal Mediterranean, modern kind of Australian country style houses as well.

we are getting a lot of regional, projects, which are, they're modern, but

they are in a regional setting, so you wanna relate them to the, I guess the

Australian bush that's around you and kind of bring some of those, the connection

to nature in, into the interiors.

so I love, I love the projects that we are working on that are city country based.

but definitely we've got city coastal and regional projects and we do, we don't

go, oh, we only do Japan, or we only do coastal, or we only do a certain thing.

I think people do gravitate towards the mood boards and the products that we are

showing, in our portfolio as finished.

Use cases.

Look,

looking at what you've done on social media, like I look at what you do and

I'm like, I feel it's very timeless.

Yeah.

'cause you know, you, you talk about coastal, you talk about country,

you talk about connection to nature.

Like you can't, that's in itself is timeless.

And I feel that's reflective in some of the mood boards that I've seen.

Yeah, absolutely.

Social media.

Yeah, we're definitely, we get.

That brief a lot.

And I think that's just naturally like where I go.

I think like as a mom and also as someone who's built my own house, I

do want it to have that longevity.

and I do want it to feel timeless, but I also want it to feel personal.

Yeah.

and so we will listen to the client's brief around what colors they like,

because that will be what's timeless to them, if that makes sense.

Yep.

So what's timeless to me?

is different to what's timeless to my client.

I think some clients can live with, you know, pops of color and some, and

that's amazing and timeless for them.

And other people will be like, well, we want a little bit more

of a restrained palette because that's what's timeless for them.

so definitely translating what is timeless is part of our briefing process.

So how about trends then?

Because we're at, the AL expert right now, and a lot of the stuff is about trends.

Trends are an impor important part of, you know, I guess,

the interior design industry.

I think they have their place in inspiring, definitely inspiring,

creating food for thought.

and definitely I think trends have a place where you are, if you are

trying to establish something as.

You know, a little bit more bespoke and people are connected to that.

I think the main thing is that if that trend connects with your client, like if

your client comes in and they're like, we love all the rich timbers and the browns,

and we are, we are really loving this trend, then you know, straight away that

that's not like, you know, going to, be a deal breaker for them in the long term.

I think I would never sort of pick a trend because it's trendy and

incorporate it into a design without.

There being some connection to the brief and, you know, and I'm, I

think I am pro, I probably don't jump onto trends as much as, the block.

Yeah.

Not block, I'm a block trendy.

Yeah.

Sorry.

If you, think I'm like trying, not trying, certainly not trying to set

any trends, if that makes sense.

Like, I'm not pioneering in the trend space, but I definitely.

Um, timeless personal homes.

Super.

What's like your

go-to, like, what's a product or something that you just like, I

like getting that in every home.

It might be like wine-based paints, like, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

do every,

every product is unique, but I definitely feel like, definitely at

the moment, like for example, flooring engineered timber is probably like a.

Like a go-to at the moment in terms of like, you know, a certain

level of finish for a house.

we've come across some really great, you know, products which do tick

a lot of boxes, in terms of cost effective too, cost effective.

you know, we can tick some of the durability, requirements

for families with that product.

and I guess it's, yeah, it's a beautiful product.

It's, got that natural finish in it.

another one that I'm really, I think, drawn to just because it's

got that timeless, natural finish is a quart site as a natural stone.

So if people are looking for a natural stone, all the quart sites, or it's,

it's a category of natural stone, but, quartzite has the durability,

and the kind of heat resistance from a natural stone product.

So like a granite, so granite's a different kind of category.

it's super durable as well, so it's like high in that kind of durability space.

But yeah, like I think some natural stones are softer, scratch and chip easily.

Yeah.

Like, like marble.

Marble.

and so when people, go, okay, I'm a little bit scared of using natural stone,

you've kind of gotta educate them to go, okay, well if we use a quartzite, we can

actually alleviate some of your, concerns.

if we, if.

We do get a lot of families, that maybe don't wanna use natural stone, and

there's also a raft of products out there that we, we can sort of show them

porcelain products cited Stone, which has, you know, it does have that kind

of stain repellants, in the properties.

So, yeah, we definitely listen to the client's needs and concerns around

maintenance and things like that and give them, you know, obviously give them

the best product for their requirements.

What do you think the biggest misconception around

interior designers is?

It depends.

It depends who you ask, I guess.

But the role of an interior designer I think can sometimes, some people

who have never worked with an interior designer might have an idea that

it's maybe to do with furniture and there's not an understanding

of what interior designers do.

for example, on the hard finishes side, so there's two parts

to my business, essentially.

there's the interior design, you know, we are developing the interior

architecture, selections, and all the joinery for a new build or a renovation.

And I would call that a hard finishes job.

And that includes all the

CAD drawings, all that sort of stuff.

Yeah.

And that

is super technical.

It's, you know, you need to know the products, you need

to know how they perform.

there's a lot of advisory around the products that you are actually putting

into the design specifications, and limitations that you need to put

on all of the notes and paperwork.

there's, you know, you need to know, building standards and understand how,

you know you need to comply with them.

So.

Yeah, it's definitely that is, you know, a very technical part of, the job.

We also have a additional service that we provide, which is our

furniture and styling service.

Yeah.

And that's to curate furniture and art, interior decorating, art artwork.

Yeah.

Decorating essentially.

So, we always try and sort of add that into our projects as,

you know, an additional service.

But our core business, I would say is the interior design around, You

know, new builds and renovations.

This is where I kind of wanted to get to and I think that I know

we've had this conversation before.

I personally feel interior designers are undervalued.

Yeah, and I think there's an issue with the conception that an interior designer

will just pick a few colors, pick your tiles, and that's it from my, I I, yeah.

We are

not like a selection center.

No, it's not.

Yeah.

And I, and I think that it starts with, you've make two really good points.

One, I think to call yourself interior designer, you need to be

able to draw CAD drawings Exactly.

And proper CAD drawings and to his know the standards.

Yes.

I think you shouldn't be going around calling yourself an interior designer

just 'cause you pick some floorboards.

Yeah.

And I'm, I'm gonna be really hard on that with people because I think it

discredits a lot then of what you guys do.

Yeah, exactly.

'cause there's so much to it about creating a, a space, um,

that is inviting for everyone.

Yeah,

absolutely.

And even some

of your language around, understanding, how light comes into the building as well.

I know that was some of your notes that we got.

Before this podcast, not everyone thinks about that.

I mean, we think about it because we build high performance and passive house.

That's really important, that solar gain.

But you know, that plays a huge role in interior design, how each room feels.

Yeah.

So we just like, we will design according to the orientation.

Like we take into account how small.

So like when I, when I first start, a job, I will study the

floor plans, make lots of notes.

I look at like the orientation of.

you know, certain rooms.

Just make sure that we are not sort of making rooms too dark or too,

you know, like if there is a dark room already, we need to probably

use some reflective finishes.

Do you do work with like a lighting consultant as well?

Yeah, so we do a lighting plan as part of our, our lighting work that we do.

So I'll select, lights, pendant lights also, sorry, the feature

lights for, the whole house and we'll do a lighting plan, but we, we also

look at the architectural lighting.

Yeah.

So looking at, you know, where you might have artwork, where you might

have, you know, cathedral style or raked ceilings where we wanna bounce

the light upwards instead of all down lights because, you know, the

angles, are something to celebrate.

So I think definitely there's, there's a lot of technical

work and, you know, it doesn't.

It's, it's not only selections, there's a lot of detailed planning

behind this where, how to use the selections, if that makes sense.

So, we do have, when I work with clients, we have three tiers of service and

I think it's kind of nice to kind of put it into perspective that our base

service is a selections only package.

So we do a whole new build.

We can do all the kind of, you know, colors, lighting.

Doors, tapware, everything that's for that project is specified

as a selection in the schedule.

then we have a mid, a mid-tier package and then, a kind of full service.

And the mid-tier package is some mood boards and some conceptual imagery

as well as all the selections.

And then our full tier package, which most people who are doing a dream home

will sort of get into that full service.

And that's building from concepts into a set of detailed, I reckon, drawings

every client.

Yep.

If you're listening, uh, I, I personally as a builder, won't jump

into a project that an interior designer hasn't been a part of.

Yeah.

I think it's really, really important.

Uh, it, it, honestly, I think the cost you put into an interior designer

aim, I think that if they don't, if they're not gonna do it, they're gonna

pay someone along the way to do it.

Exactly.

And then it becomes us as builders and don't listen to us or, or,

or the clients choosing.

Yeah.

And that can be a disaster.

Yeah.

And then all of a sudden there's gray areas within contracts and

ex expectations and just pay.

Like the time that you you're gonna save is crazy.

I know Nicole and I going through our house, there's so much

conversations where like, there's so

many decisions.

I feel like

endless.

You know, when I do an interior design project, we estimate the amount

of hours that we kind of dedicate to like a full service design.

It's sort of over, you know, 200 hours for a full new build.

And if you don't have that extra 200 hours in the space of like,

you know, the planning phase of your build, I'm doing that.

But you know what you're looking for though.

You know, I'm doing

it during the day.

I'm doing it as part of my job.

I'm fully engaged in those decisions.

And if cl if clients or if people aren't using a designer, they're making

those decisions in the wee hours of the evening once their kids are asleep.

They're making quick decisions.

They're then second guessing those decisions and they dunno

where to look, know where to

look or, or it's going into the provisional sum and it's

getting made on the The fly.

On the fly.

And then things are disjointed.

Disjointed.

So it's probably just circles back to a Christian.

I wanted to ask before, at what point are you getting

involved in a set of documents?

Yeah,

so the ideal time for us to sort of for an interior designer and to start having a

conversation around working with a client.

Is in that kind of floor plan stage, and it's usually when the

floor plan's more progressed.

So it's in that sort of final revision.

or if you've locked it in, you know, you've got a full detailed sort of

like working drawings, which are then going and getting approved.

while it's in the approval stage.

We would generally love to get, you know, involved through either

the architect or the builder.

a lot of our work comes through, you know, word of mouth.

And through relationships that we have, but equally, if we haven't

had that relationship with anybody.

The time that, if you're listening now and you wanna work with an

interior designer, the time to engage is in as early as possible.

But definitely say at the beginning,

I was gonna say, we bang at the beginning.

We bang on about it at the beginning time before anything's drawn.

Yeah.

And we'd love to be involved as early as possible.

But that's probably, ideal or the latest.

Like we don't wanna sort of be in construction and then be pulled into

Yeah, the conversation once things are obviously, oh, but why not?

That sounds

completely logical.

And that's only because then so frustrating.

You don't have

the timeline of getting into the bookings, um, at the right time.

So

you and I both work with an interior designer and the same one.

So we work with Erin from Hey, hey, often, and I don't know how many projects

we've been on where Erin's come in and she's seen a floor plan and she's like.

Why is it like that?

Yeah.

And we've actually gone back before, we've gone to site

before, permits are being issued.

Mm-hmm.

And actually got the drawings updated.

Yeah.

Because the client didn't feel heard or they were missed.

Or not challenged.

Or not challenged.

Okay.

Yeah.

And

had we, completely redone floor plans.

Yep.

Because it didn't quite, yeah.

Just to

account for the interiors.

And, on reflection and, having seen these homes now built and

seeing how they're being used.

Mm-hmm.

And I think about some of the early iterations of the plans, which didn't,

have the floor painted as it's built now.

Yes.

And I'm like, I don't know how the clients would've done X, Y, and Z

if the interior designer wasn't in.

And imagine we'd

love, we love to do a floor plan review.

Yes.

If we, if there is anything that we might be able to change, um.

And keep still within the, the building.

Yeah.

Um, regulations.

But there's definitely, I think particularly where there's joinery

involved, um, we, you'd love to, your joinery to sort of be inbuilt

rather than to be extruded and to be sort of like hanging out.

Um, so I think those kind of settings or, within an architectural plan, definitely,

we love to be able to go, okay, well.

Could we tweak this?

Um, I'll always try and.

Circle back around with the architect during that time.

If a oh hundred percent client does want to change anything because

Yeah, you run it by 'em first.

Yeah.

I think

also like there's also decisions why things have been done in a certain way,

and if you do change it, like they need to be a part of that process and engaged.

I know we bang on about it time and time again and building's probably

never been more expensive than it is now with so many projects.

Not going ahead due to budget reasons, but if you.

Wanna give your project the best chance to succeed in getting to site?

Get your builder, your building designer, architect, your interior

designer, your consultants around energy performance, landscape designer,

landscape designer, get 'em all involved early on from the start.

Get your dream team together and that is giving you the best chance.

And probably, I'd say nearly the only chance your project to succeed.

Well, yeah.

I mean, you think about interiors, I mean, interiors are a big ticket item

as a big chunk of cash in a project.

So.

it has to be considered at the beginning.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

there's usually two ways about like a project will evolve.

Sometimes we'll have the contract in place and that way we have a

set of parameters around budget.

Yeah.

Which inform the brief.

Yeah.

As part of our brief.

And sometimes it'll be the other way around.

we will, we will be doing the interiors, which will then be fed into, a.

The building contract.

Yeah.

Being priced.

there's no right or wrong way in, in terms of how to engage with

interior, interior designer, sorry.

But I think having clear conversations around budget are really important

at the outset of the design process.

And also just understanding what's important in terms of, value and spend

versus save decisions in a project like what someone wants to pay.

is really important to them.

Like, so if I was to do a project, I know where I might wanna spend

and where I might wanna save.

And that's different, in every project.

And what means, that's good point.

And what a value, what value is to one person is different to another person.

and we can still actually, I think like most projects there,

there's always a balance.

You can't sort of just.

Like go high spec on everything and know and feel like that's going to actually

be implemented unless you have a money

tree.

No.

And like no one, none of my projects have ever been like that.

There's always been some conversation around what we're

spending and what we're saving on.

Um, but I would say that joinery is the biggest cost in the interior design.

Yeah.

Um, and joinery is one of those things that, you know, is

subjective in terms of we don't know exactly where it's gonna land.

But we need to know, okay.

Well we work in sort of price tiers, so you know, whether we're using, um, you

know, a cheaper finish for the bench top or we're using a premium finish,

or we're using a mid-range finish.

We have that kind of indication of price at every point.

Um, and we will.

Um, explain that to our clients as well as, you know, the types of door finishes

that you're using and, and make sure that they know that they're in, whether they're

in like a low, mid, or high tier Yeah.

For the doors

and the stone.

And, but you can even, you can even play around with that.

You could do, alright.

You know what, I just want my kitchen to be the showstopper.

Yeah.

I couldn't give a shit about the bathroom.

Exactly.

And so you can, you can spend and save in different areas and

just tweak those a little bit.

Yeah.

So I wanna finish up.

And you're a mum and you're someone who's managed risk your whole career

potentially worried about what I still am.

Yeah.

Potentially worried about what others might think.

And if your kids were to listen to this in say 20 years and the

journey you've been on, what do you want them to take away from this?

I definitely care less what other people think right At this point in my career.

I think I've probably evolved since then to Probably prioritize

what my own happiness and how I feel about my own set of values.

what was the question?

Sorry.

Um, if you want your kids to listen to this in 20 years, what would you want

'em to take away from this conversation?

Oh,

um, if you wanna be a pilot, pilot,

I, I say this now and I'll say it in 20 years to my kids, that, they

should just do what makes them happy and go for their dreams and.

if they're gonna do something, give it your best shot.

Yeah.

And, I guess there's no linear path in life and you will continue to

evolve and that's not a failure.

I think that, you know, people who have professional athletes careers have to

evolve after their athletic career.

Everyone has the same, opportunity to sort of evolve in their careers

and, in life and in general.

Or change.

Or change careers.

, change their mind, you know, if they're not, if, if something's not working

for them anymore, like, that's okay.

and define their own.

Version of success.

C Can I, can I just

round something out now?

Because you, you were, you were worried about failure.

Yeah.

Now, would the message not be to your kids?

Don't be afraid of failure.

Yeah.

I guess,

yeah.

Don't be afraid of failure, I guess like failure is kind

of one of those things that's

failure's.

Okay.

Yeah.

It's what you do with a setback.

I probably don't love the word failure, but if you've had a setback or if

you define something as a failure, you can either take it two ways,

you can look at it and dwell on it and feel negative about the failure.

Or you could look at something and go, Hey, okay, well that didn't work out.

I have.

A very firm belief that everything is meant to happen just the way it happened

or everything is as it should be.

So if you hit something, or if you had a failure, it was meant to be there

in your way to teach you something, to learn something, to grow and move on.

And thank you for that lesson universe.

If we want to get onto you or someone needs to look for interior design

advice, how do we contact you?

Well,

Instagram is the new business card.

Slip into the dms, I think.

I honestly, I do a lot of, chatting and lead generation through the dms

because like we've got lots of followers.

but you know, my website and social media is probably where

you'll see, some of my work.

you'll hear the, like, the messaging around our brand and get to know

myself and the brand a little bit more.

You can read about it on the website, but then every message on our social

media links back to kind of the values.

that we hold as business.

and to contact us, you follow the, the contact page on the website.

Yeah.

You can also book a discovery call from our Instagram links.

Perfect.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Thank you.

Or just shoot

us a dm. D

thank you for coming on.

Appreciate it.

Thank you so much for sharing, having me appreciate

it.

Awesome.