Stacey shares her journey of navigating faith, identity, and self-discovery after a painful divorce and joining an evangelical Pentecostal community.

She reveals the emotional highs and manipulative undertones of church life, the struggle between divine perfection and self-acceptance, and the challenges of embracing authenticity in matters of faith and sexuality. Through raw honesty, Stacey explores the complexities of organised religion, the business-like nature of church operations, and her own theological awakenings. Her story underscores the transformative power of deconstructing faith and finding supportive spaces.

Who Is Stacey?

A Queer counsellor and sex therapist advocating for positive sex information for all humans. Ex-Pentecostal leader married to a Non Binary human who had their own journey being Queer in church and ambushed conversion. Stacey left the church in 2019 and stepped down. Passionate about empowering LGBTQIA+ individuals and providing space to relearn all elements that were shamed through religion or generational. Stacey is also of Gamilaraay heritage.

Connect With Us

• You can find out more about Stacey's work on her website - http://www.rainbowservices.co
• You can also connect over on Instagram - @rainbowservices.cc

• To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
• Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.

00:18 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

00:58

Hey there, and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. I'm your host, sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is Beyond the Surface. Welcome, stacey. Thanks for joining me.

01:42 - Stacey (Guest)

Thank you so much for having me. Whereabouts in Australia are you? I am in Port Macquarie, so up on the mid-north coast.

01:49 - Sam (Host)

Oh, nice, lovely. Is it still warm up there? I would expect it to still be warm.

01:56 - Stacey (Guest)

Oh, it's not too bad. It's not too bad. We do have a 27 degree day coming up on Wednesday. Being a cold, cold frog, I look for those warm pockets and go right okay so we are the polar opposite.

02:13 - Sam (Host)

As soon as I see it too, I'm like gross, um, I grew, I grew up in the Blue Mountains, so um, where I mean it does it can get really hot, but uh, yeah, I am. I am not a fan, I'm the opposite of like winter blues. I love the winter, so I'm manifesting cold weather the change, the autumn change came in suddenly.

02:39 - Stacey (Guest)

One morning it was like oh, it's arrived.

02:42 - Sam (Host)

I know it was lovely, well, I thought it was like oh, it's arrived. I know it was lovely, well, I thought it was lovely. Okay, wonderful, let's. Let's kick off. Stacey, where does your story start?

02:55 - Stacey (Guest)

Where does my story start?

02:57

So my story around faith actually starts when I was 30 uh, so I yeah, I came into the um evangelical pentecostal movement, uh quite late and, um, I can honestly say I was in a very vulnerable state. I had just left my marriage, uh, four kids, single mom. Like, uh, if you're going down a little checklist that makes up a testimony. I had all the all the parts and uh, yeah, just really searching for community and connection and healing, and just thought why not give it a go? Why not give it a go? Why not give it a?

03:45 - Sam (Host)

go. The church loves a transformation story right.

03:49 - Stacey (Guest)

So do we? Yes, and it's. You know, that whole love-bombing situation that you have shared around was like feeling so loved after feeling so shattered and coming into pieces of myself and being covered in love. Um was was the transformation, transformational story that within, yeah, a few weeks, we're up on platform sharing our story about finding God, calling us home and into the family and you know, right there it sets a bar and an expectation yeah, it's all that belonging language, you know.

04:34 - Sam (Host)

Yes, the word family is used very, very strategically, I find, because it's supposed to make you feel like you are a part of something, you belong and okay. So I'm really intrigued because most people, most people, are raised in this life. There, you know, there is the childhood I am a little different in, but it still was teenage years, and so I'm curious what it was like as a, you know, as a 30-year-old single mum coming into that environment.

05:16 - Stacey (Guest)

There was. Oh, it was overwhelming and beautiful all at the same time.

05:20 - Sam (Host)

Yeah.

05:25 - Stacey (Guest)

It was just this. I remember sitting down before I went and really thinking like what am I going to do? What am I going to do? I need, I need to feel something better.

05:37

Um, because I was also harboring my own queerness and trying to work out whether I could do anything with that, yet, you know, in the light of leaving marriage and all that sort of having little kids. So I made a phone call to a, to a church, and was, and I said I don't know what I want, I don't know if I want to come, but I don't even know what I need and the level of comfort that was given to me. I thought we can only try it. We can only try it. And she followed up a call and was like, are you going to come? Are you going to? Like we're so excited to meet you, we've been praying for you and your family? And we were like, okay, we'll go.

06:23

And I remember telling my kids and, um, I had two teenagers and two little ones and the teenagers looked at me and were like what we're going where? Yeah, oh, yeah. So we had our, we had our entry point kind of already established through that phone call. Um, yeah, which really enveloped us. We were come and sit at the front with the pastors, come and sit at the front with the leaders introduced and loved on and it felt very nourishing and very beautiful from where I was coming out of.

07:03 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, so finding that space was retrospectively my vulnerable, my vulnerable self needing comfort, yeah, and finding I mean the way that you describe it is like you were held, almost like you were. You know that enveloping sort of picture is that you know when you're at your most vulnerable you were held by people and that's what vulnerable people do need in that space, absolutely, absolutely, and the language that is used in that vulnerable space.

07:45 - Stacey (Guest)

I now have a level of how dare you, how dare you take that broken vulnerability and put languages around it that really, really needed some heavy deconstruction at the end. But that's at the end, um, just stuff. Like god has brought you through this. This is a test, um. You know every bible verse that kind of exists in that. Um, it's called you by name, formed you in your womb, knew you would be here today.

08:22 - Sam (Host)

Um all of the spiritual bypassing absolutely, absolutely so.

08:29 - Stacey (Guest)

Um, yeah, so finding ourselves in that space, and then there was roles for all of my children, so we really we were sewing into the house, sewing into the kingdom and um, yeah, the progression in that was was very, very, very quick okay, and was the progression quick in terms of you know you were, you were brought into this space, uh, but I guess I'm thinking, you know, when did it become a personal relationship with God?

09:04

Oh, it became a personal relationship with God, probably for me about about six weeks in. Um, yeah, so it fast tracked through a as someone who is a lifelong learner and loves learning and has a thirst for knowledge.

09:23 - Sam (Host)

there was courses, oh, oh please tell me, it wasn't alpha cruises, was it?

09:30 - Stacey (Guest)

oh my goodness okay right yeah, we're there so and that's kind of now. I look at that like a little bit of a reprogramming.

09:44

Yeah absolutely and going, oh okay, all of this was because Jesus loves me and wants me to come home. So then I just sought him. I sought him with everything that I had more courses serving Bible college, yeah, you name it. Whatever I could do to seek that feeling of closeness to God, I was doing it. I was absolutely longing for that connection with God and now I can identify that feeling was the love bombing. But that personal relationship with God I would. I would my whole day, my whole world changed. There was no secular music, we did not do VeggieTales.

10:39 - Sam (Host)

Oh, thank goodness for that, that one.

10:41 - Stacey (Guest)

I am so proud of myself for that.

10:43 - Sam (Host)

The creepiest thing I've ever seen. If people have never heard of veggie tales uh, and the us probably have not heard, but um, essentially it's like it's just like an animated children's series of vegetables who sing and talk about Jesus and the Bible and it is honestly the creepiest thing I've ever seen.

11:06 - Stacey (Guest)

Absolutely.

11:08 - Sam (Host)

Absolutely Approach with caution if you YouTube that, If you don't know what it is. Approach with caution because it is, and don't let your children see it. It's terrifying. They'll have nightmares.

11:21 - Stacey (Guest)

Absolutely. My wife's children are like you. Didn't make your kids watch it like no no, they saw it in kids church, but that was about it yeah, that was about it yeah, so we.

11:33

But we removed, um, we removed everything that could have, uh, been like little carved borders that my daughter had bought me, things like that, anything that could be idol tree, um, any music that could be idol tree. And we are a family that relies heavily on not relies heavily on music, but enjoys music heavily, like quite a lot. Um, so that all changed and make you know, come on, kids, let's pray before we leave, let's leave the house, let's pray when we get in the car for protection, um, let's pray for a parking spot. Have we not all anyone going?

12:17 - Sam (Host)

oh my, gosh, I so have, and I don't even drive. But I used to be the person like, even when my wife and I first got together, I'd be like, oh my gosh, okay, we're going to like this super big shopping centre and you would. You would be driving and you would be like, oh please, lord, let us get a parking spot. And when you get one, you go, you thank him and you think that that's a blessing and you're like it's just a fucking car park. It blows my mind.

12:52 - Stacey (Guest)

I know just those little daily transformations that you do, yeah, and you're just like, well, all glory goes to God, yeah, all of the glory goes to god.

13:05

So you know, we were two services a day, multi-campus, be wherever they need us, needed us to be, um, and it wasn't uncommon that, um, yeah, my kids would just find me sitting at the back with music on and Bible studies and I had, like every Christian book and just really really hungering for how I can make that relationship with God so much stronger. And, yeah, like I said, grappling with my own queerness, knowing if I wanted to continue in church, um, and moving the way I was moving into leadership and employment and things like that, that it would just be have to be pushed down and, um, that Jesus could be my husband and that would be enough, yeah, uh, so, yeah, grappling with all of that but really relying on Jesus to be the filler of of those spaces, um, so that personal relationship was was like a lot people would go. What are you doing today? I'm just hanging out with the Lord oh my goodness yeah.

14:23

It was very personal, very intense.

14:26 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, and I mean there's like my brain is going in so many different directions as I hear that because you know the constant Bible study and the con. I mean it's just that constant striving. You've just got to keep going. It's just more, it's more, it's more. And I mean aside from the fact that like there is the irony around that we are supposed to be striving to be like Jesus but also Jesus is supposed to be perfect and holy and that's unattainable, but it doesn't mean that you're not supposed to keep trying to get to it. That's exhausting, but it doesn't mean that you're not supposed to keep trying to get to it exactly like that's exhausting it's chasing your tail around and around and around.

15:12 - Stacey (Guest)

I remember once my daughter said to me the difference between my relationship with god, mom, and yours is I just know he loves me. Oh wow, and you are working every day to make him love you more.

15:25 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, and I was like, yeah, so how it's meant to go? It's not, but it's the way that it's packaged a lot of the time. I remember, you know, I remember an elder saying in a sermon that it is only that faith, it is only faith that saves, but faith alone, without works, will do nothing. And I was like, oh, that, like I don't know that that's how it's supposed to be. Yeah, okay, and I would imagine, if there was a deep love of music, that there's a reason. The Pentecostal church probably called to you because it, if you know, they do one thing well, they do music well that's right.

16:10 - Stacey (Guest)

And I was like what if I go and I like it and or, okay, I want somewhere that's enjoyable for my children and my daughter is still a very gifted singer we just, yeah, so she was like 14 and 14, up on the worship stage within a few weeks, leading, leading big worship, and um, yeah, I still have videos and I still I adore those videos.

16:43

Um, you know, but it's not now. I look back and I think she hadn't, um, said, uh, you know, done the whole forgiveness prayer, given her life over to the Lord. She hadn't been baptized, she hadn't pledged her faith to the church in any way. She was 14 and yet that's another sense of how can we envelope, like, close that fold in yeah, we're going to give you a whole service, a whole big congregation to lead, and the euphoria in that. I think I read somewhere that the Pentecostal songs, a lot of them, have four similar bars that release a hit of dopamine and that creates that feeling of the Holy Spirit. So when she was doing AM and PM services, yeah, she was just like she was exhausted, but she was there, she was really in that moment. Yeah, it's invigorating.

17:51

Absolutely.

17:52 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, and it is. It's just a dopamine hit and I think, particularly if you look at, I guess, the more upbeat music that some of the Pentecostal churches, and you see it with the Hillsong music in particular, if you took the words away, the music could be secular music Absolutely. And that is done very, very strategically because it is supposed to be alluring, it's supposed to entice you, it's supposed to make you feel a certain way. The melody is designed to create an emotional response in you and and people don't realize, I think, until they're out, just how manipulative that is yeah, yeah, absolutely.

18:50 - Stacey (Guest)

Um, we, I haven't. I put one song on. I think it was like a year ago and I just sat and I was like how does this make me feel now? And it's still evoked like a memory response in my, in my body, where I was like remember this, I remember this. So, and as you probably know, in Australia there's that show going on Stan at the moment and I sat there and I watched it with my wife and we were just like.

19:25

This is absolutely correct. It's so traumatizing, but it feels so familiar that it felt, yeah, only almost homely yeah, there's a comfort about it there's an ease. Yes, and that's trauma yeah, I um.

19:45 - Sam (Host)

The show that stace is talking about is called prosper, um, and it's on a platform in australia called stan. I'm not sure whether where you would get that internationally, but uh, by this time this episode is released, my good friend Jane and Elise and I are going to do a bonus episode talking All Things Prosper, because it's a shit show. And my wife and I started watching it and she comes from a Pentecostal church and I didn't, and so she did not make it all the way through. It is not easy. And she comes from a Pentecostal church and I didn't, and so she did not make it all the way through it. It is not easy to watch. So if you do have a background in Pentecostalism or even any sort of evangelical type church, go gently with that show, because it is not easy. And if you are not from a church background, watch it and you'll be weirded out because it's weird and it's like that's. That's just really fucking weird. So, yeah, okay, let's come back to how long were you in this church for?

20:55 - Stacey (Guest)

I was present in the church. I was in the church for a total of nine years before I started. Yeah, yeah, so I started. To the closer I came to God. I decided to undertake a theology degree and thus began my undoing.

21:15 - Sam (Host)

The beginning of the end, right Exactly. I find that two main threads happen for people, and it's either the closer they get to the top of the leadership team in a church, the more they realize just how controlled and targeted and manipulative and businesslike a church runs, or they start to do any form of theological training and they realize this is not what I thought I had ever known and it sort of starts.

21:51

it's like pulling at a thread and once you start pulling, it just pulling at a thread and once you start pulling, it just unravels Absolutely.

22:06 - Stacey (Guest)

And the way that in those years I started to feel so disconnected I started to try harder to reconnect. Like profusely, I fasted a lot, I did a lot of the Daniel daniel fasting. I bought the book gross, the recipe book and the prayer book and, yeah, okay, but I had a massive issue with corporate fasting. I was like it's not what it says. But, um, you know, and then I actually, um, yeah, I, I totally busted from self-pleasure for a year. I was like, all right, god, if I need you to come back in, I need you to take control. I mean, I don't really want to go and explore something and then come back to you because I know what you think, whatever, whatever. So I just hands off anything for like to do with myself. For 12 months. Yeah, it was. It was really intense and I actually found, yeah, the the more I knew, the more it started to. I started to pull back into myself, I started to pull back into my truth and I, yeah, I was just like going what we're not taught to trust ourselves anymore. You know, we don't, we don't know, we don't know what we're meant to do. God knows, and he will put those things in your path and he knows the way, jeremiah. But so it was like myself started being awakened and I remember going to a red tent.

23:51

Have you ever been to a red tent? It's a women's circle and it's it's based around your menstrual cycle. You sit with women in the order of your menstrual cycle and women just share. Whoever has the bowl shares whatever's on their heart. Um, and I could. I remember being so scared someone would find out. I was there, I was like, but then I remember oh no, this is in Exodus how the women would have to go to the tent when they were unclean. This is what the red tent means. And I bought the book and I read the book, the red tent, and okay, this is all right, it aligns.

24:30

But even being there with awakened women and going, this is not the whole. People are looking out at you going. You have it together. You have that something that everyone wants. They want that joy, that connection that you have because you have christ living in you. Um, I'm actually like more lost in myself, in my self-awareness and whatnot. So those sorts of things coming to the surface and being able to go outside of that bubble that I had placed myself in. What is in me? Yeah, yeah, what is there'm starting to explore that? That came with a lot of a lot of guilt.

25:23 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, that unraveling process, I think for a lot of people can, a lot of people can assume that that's just like, you know, a coming home, and it is because that coming home is coming home to yourself. But that also comes with, like a lot of overwhelming emotions and a lot of destabilization. It's like the rug has been pulled out from under you and you've got nothing to center your gravity anymore. Um, and that's a real shock to the system also, right?

26:06 - Stacey (Guest)

absolutely, absolutely. I. At this point I was like working in the church, employed in in the church, and I sought out a coach.

26:18 - Sam (Host)

I was like I don't want any Very rebellious of you.

26:21 - Stacey (Guest)

I know I didn't tell anyone. I was like I just need, I need to just work on what is happening. I didn't even know what I needed.

26:31 - Sam (Host)

I remember I was just like my first thought is the only thing worse that you could seek out while you're at church than a coach would be a therapist, which is ironic because we both are. So I thought okay, so you sought out a coach.

26:46 - Stacey (Guest)

I did, I did, and she was amazing at holding space, like she had her program all set up. It did not go that way. Um, I met I remember I think it was the third meeting and I was like up on a headland somewhere and I rebuked myself for an hour with every passage. I knew that was condemning myself for being where I was in my questioning and, um, because I couldn't share. I felt like, especially being in the church leadership ladder, you could not go to to someone and say I'm really struggling, explain this to me again. Um, you had a picture, you had to live by, kind of thing. So she just sat there and held space for me and and really, as I, as I have looked back on that moment, it was such a beautiful moment because, as much as I was like you know, um, if I, I shouldn't even be looking at this. I should just be trusting in the Lord, my God, like my life. Verse is Proverbs 3, 5.

27:59 - Sam (Host)

Yeah.

28:00 - Stacey (Guest)

This is over and over and over, and I was just now. I look back and I go I was releasing a lot of that. It was a very, very intense hour and a half. I'm sure she needed a drink afterwards and a half.

28:21 - Sam (Host)

I'm sure she needed a drink afterwards.

28:22 - Stacey (Guest)

Oh, I mean, I'm sure you probably could have as well after oh yeah, it was, it was intense and during that space and then after that I said to her I need to back off and she was like, okay, that's fine if you need to take a couple of weeks. And, yeah, at that point I really kind of sat with myself and went who am I under all of this, if I truly believe that I have been created perfect?

28:51 - Sam (Host)

yeah, yes, I'm born in sin oh, don't even get me started on that contradiction and I just I was like you know, at my core I knew I was.

29:04 - Stacey (Guest)

I was a lesbian. I think the first time I had ever danced with that was when I was 22 yeah and um, but I never. I had two kids. I was just like, oh no, not going to do that, and that started to really bubble up again and so I sort of stepped back from attending church and just locked the front door because you get phone calls and they're why aren't you coming? Well, at least let me pick up your kids? I was like no, they're fine. Um, and really just tried to separate myself a little bit, um, to work out who I was and where I was and um, yeah, so it was.

29:55

That was a beautiful, a beautiful but absolutely difficult time, because in questioning that came with if I follow this truth that I'm unraveling, I am going to lose this entire community that they came to my father's funeral yeah they held us, they cooked birthday dinners for us, we celebrated milestones like these I really felt were my people, but I was like I cannot have both.

30:30

So it really felt like choosing am I going to choose my God and my faith, or am I going to choose myself? And I came to a peaceful place just finished a theology degree put it in and my old senior pastors had knocked on the door and asked if they could take my boys camping for a weekend and they said, but we won't have reception so you won't be able to get in touch with us. And I was like, yep, sure, I just really felt that. So I sat with myself and I was like I can't, I can't do this anymore. My core values I was like I can't, I can't do this anymore. My core values my biggest core value is authenticity. Yeah, so I need to embrace all that I am. And if that means I knew what that would mean, what that would entail, so then I had to work out a strategy to be able to do that, because that was my work, that was my world, that was your identity, absolutely Like.

31:46

There was ministries. As I said, I was employed, I was at every leadership meeting and I had been present when other things along these lines had happened, so I knew what would be, what would happen. And I talked to a friend who was in church and left and they were like, oh girl, I knew, I knew a long time ago that you, like you, would talk about it. You were like always arguing with people about about it, around the um, marriage act and whatnot, and uh, but they were like a little bit more, like just tell them while you're still in there and see what they do. And I went, no, no, it needs to be on my terms. So, um, that was a big, big decision that took a couple of months of strategic planning. And that's when I reconnected with my coach and I sent her a video and I was like this and I feel like, and I held up something and I'd just written I'm gay. And the way she celebrated me in my authenticity, I felt as held as I did when I first started going to church, if not more, because it was real and it was all of you, it was all of me, without judgment. There wasn't an if, there wasn't a condition, there wasn't like a KPI of souls, there wasn't. There wasn't anything about about it, except for I am just so happy for you.

33:35

So thus began my transition out of the church and first thing I did was like ring them up and say I'm going to resign.

33:50

And they tried to talk me out of it and I was like no, I have to resign. And I really pushed and I got out because I wasn't going to come out or have relationships while I was affiliated. I still had two kids going to school. I had that area of my life to think about. But yeah, I wound it up and I I ended my time and walked away and I remember walking home and unfriending all the leaders. Oh, wow. And I had told three people that were very important and I may well up um were very important people in my life that I really did want to keep in my life. That were were very important people in my life that I really did want to keep in my life that were, and I was like you know, I I don't want to hear the whole God hates the sin, but not not the sinner, love the sinner, hate the sin yeah, I don't want to hear that.

34:47

I don't want to hear we can pray it away. I don't want to hear Jesus is enough and what. This is who I am. I am, I am queer, I am gay, I like women and I really hope you can still love me. And now I look at those messages and I'm like did you write? You gave all these reasons why they should just love you, um, and they're not. They're not around. They were like oh, you know I love you, but I, you know, don't agree, or I don't believe, or I don't um.

35:27 - Sam (Host)

I can be all the record for people who are listening.

35:29 - Stacey (Guest)

I love you but is not love exactly, exactly, and that's been the biggest gift of coming out of the church as well is finding that unconditional space of love. Yeah, that we're taught. You know, our slate is wiped clean, but then we've also forced, and I'm sorry I'm going off track. No, that's fine, we're not forced, but we're asked to relive our trauma over and over again. Yeah, you know, our test is our testimony, our mess is our message. Um, what is the worst thing that's happened to you and how did God change that? Could you share about that in front of 300, 400, 500 people on Sunday, because that will really really help people connect to the Lord? So we're, we're constantly as much as our slate's wiped clean. It's not because there's a reliance on oh. This is how we connect, this is how we make connections, this is how we bring people in.

36:32 - Sam (Host)

Um, yeah, so that, um, I was a backslider oh my gosh, there's so much terminology in this episode that's going to be like oh, little notes at the bottom. I mean also for for your friends who said just like, just come out while you're still in there, that that doesn't go down either. Um, that's a terrible option um.

37:01

I think in that scenario, uh, I mean what you described is that it comes with risk and there's no way that, um, you can play out that scenario and uh, and not lose something. You either play it out and you lose yourself, um, and you keep pushing it down, or you play it out and you potentially lose people who are like your family, um, and potentially lose. You know, I remember describing it as, um, I felt like I lost everything that made me me. You know it's. You know church is not just a building.

37:42 - Stacey (Guest)

Church is your identity very much so, very much so that unraveling is, um is deeply painful.

37:53 - Sam (Host)

I think a lot of people do see when people come out as celebratory and joyous, but if that coming out has been delayed because of something, it's not always joyous, it's painful and it's traumatizing for some people.

38:13 - Stacey (Guest)

Yeah, absolutely it's. It does come with. You have to grieve the people, you have to grieve the life you had. You had to have to grieve even even things like mowing your lawn.

38:28

Now, um, if you, if you were in a church where you know it was, it was heavily emphasized to care for each other. Um, or moving house. You go oh, if I was still in the church, this is how it would work. Yeah, now there's a different way. I have to have to do it, or? Um, however the case may be, so, reconfiguring your life a little bit and finding secular music again was fun. So much had happened and had changed and it was great. But I was in. I was in like a big space in the church where I actually still have an Instagram page called the Gathered Collective where I would write Christian poetry. It got published in London somewhere by the print collective over there, you know, and that would be prayer time where God would drop it on. So then going okay, what sort of poetry do I have now? Do I have poetry? Yeah, do I have that in me now? Um, yeah, do I have that in?

39:45

me now and and what was always of god, because I also had the, the label of um being prophetic. Ah, ah, that old thing, that old thing, the whole spiritual gifts test no, sorry I just had a trauma childhood where I had hypervigilance, that's all it was.

40:00 - Sam (Host)

Oh, my goodness, yeah, oh, the spiritual gifts is a is a big conversation and a and a weird I, I, my church home was not, uh, was not charismatic. We didn't was not, uh, was not charismatic. We didn't talk about the holy spirit even all that much, because that was too um, it was too woo-woo and spiritual. We certainly did not talk about spiritual gifts and speaking in tongues, I mean, um, you know you, you didn't raise your hands in worship or anything like that, because it was made about, it was too much about you, um, and so, yeah, prophecy is is an interesting conversation.

40:46 - Stacey (Guest)

I feel like yeah, definitely, I mean and also, where does prophecy start and intuition end?

40:55

Right, I once had a young girl she was about 18, and she bought me a photo, like into college I was teaching a class on Nahum. And she went could you like just put your hands on this and tell me if this is my husband or if I am like just lusting Because if I'm lusting, I need to work on this and I went I remember just feeling so conflicted and going, okay, I said, if it's the Lord's plan, it will come. It's just like but are you getting any anything Like? Is God telling you anything? I've seen you be able to tell people things and I was like now I, during my deconstruction phase, I was like, oh my gosh, but yeah, like things like that would happen. And it felt really heavy. I was was, I didn't want that label. I was going through my spiritual gifts. I know which one I wanted. It wasn't that. Yeah, oh my goodness, yeah, yeah, that's definitely. That was. That was definitely happening.

42:14 - Sam (Host)

Um, more than once oh goodness, and I feel like, again I, there's so much wrong with that situation, um, but you know it is. It just further reinforces that, um, you don't trust your own intuition, you, everything is diverted to an external authority, and so I find that you know, something that happens for people in their deconstruction is that they need to learn how to trust themselves. They need to learn what their own voice sounds like, not just the voice of God or the voice of the pastor or their mentor or um, or what was that. I mean deconstruction is the easiest word to use here, but that reintegration into secular society, like for you, and into the queer community, because that is its own community also.

43:17 - Stacey (Guest)

Absolutely. And you know what? There's so much religious trauma within the queer community, yeah, so much. And I actually started working with youth, homeless youth who are at risk and were living in refuges and things like that, and more often than not the queer kids were there because their families did not accept their children as queer, as trans, as non-binary, as a lesbian and you know, and they were like. They were the most beautiful teachers to me in that time of being able to embrace my queerness, being able to embrace my queerness for a purpose, and I guess that can sort of like line up a little bit biblically if we tried. I mean, if we tried, we can line anything up biblically, right, mm-hmm, but for me it was like embracing that my authentic self still had a purpose.

44:34 - Sam (Host)

Yeah.

44:34 - Stacey (Guest)

That it wasn't gone because I wasn't in the church, I wasn't handing out the buckets, I wasn't doing the communion, I wasn't in the church, I wasn't handing out the buckets, I wasn't doing the communion, I wasn't doing the tithing, I wasn't traveling to the conferences my worth wasn't found in any of that.

44:46

My value wasn't found in any of that. My value was found in the most authentic parts of me and what I could, how I could connect with people, um, exactly where, where they were, without any judgment, without any. And during that deconstruction phase you also have those little Bible verses that kind of flash up. It's almost like you don't ask for it.

45:10 - Sam (Host)

Muscle memory yeah.

45:12 - Stacey (Guest)

Yeah, it just you're like ouch.

45:16 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, like ouch, yeah, absolutely, I have found, uh, we are. We are recording this ironically on Good Friday, um which I I love the poeticness of that, but, um, easter is still a time that I find very difficult to navigate, as do a lot of people, um, and I find in the weeks leading up to Easter that I periodically will have Easter songs or Bible verses just come up out of seemingly nowhere. But I think you know a beautiful way to sort of you know summarize what you just said, way to sort of you know summarize what you just said is you know on Good Friday and every day, that's not, you know you are good you know and your heart is good and you know every part of you is good and not in any way broken.

46:15

So I love and I love that you learned that from the youth, because I think there is this notion that we are supposed to learn from the wisdom of those older and those who have gone before.

46:28 - Stacey (Guest)

Um, but you can learn so much from those who are coming after you oh yeah, they are woke, absolutely, they are down with everything and I I have such, like I said, I have such beautiful learnings from, from them, and just the essence of who they were and um, and who they are and who they aspire to be, and that their dreams are no different yeah their dreams are no different and there's a.

47:03

There was also a heaviness and a sadness of going. I know the reasons why your parents are thinking this way. Yeah, and I guess at that in the early stages there was a guilt in me for knowing that, um, I didn't feel that way. Like my daughter was bisexual, my, um, I have a son who is gay and like he he was.

47:30

He actually confronted me about being queer before I actually said anything but, um, yeah, just that guilt of understanding and being in those conversations or being witness to those conversations when, oh, did you know we must pray about this because ex's son has decided he is and it's you know? Oh, do you think he decided? Because, um, I don't think it's a decision and they would kind of I was kind of always the rebellious leader.

48:01 - Sam (Host)

Yes, yeah.

48:05 - Stacey (Guest)

I get that Wrap up staff meeting quickly Stacey. Can we see you up in the pastor's office? We need to lay hands and pray. At one point getting dreadlocks just because I wanted them, and I'm going oh, that's um, you're rastafarian.

48:24 - Sam (Host)

Now I'm like no, it's a hairdo yeah, oh my goodness gracious it was hilarious.

48:32 - Stacey (Guest)

It was hilarious in hindsight, but I just came back at them with Samson's lock, so it was fine yes, oh, that's great but yeah, so I could, I could hear, I could. I felt that guilt but as I worked more with these kids and and just absorbed their, their gorgeous gorgeous minds and hearts and knowledge and fun and joy and struggles, I just felt so privileged to be awakened to who I was, even if it was later.

49:07 - Sam (Host)

I love that it is, and I think it is often really difficult. When you have seen both sides of the coin, you know to use that analogy. You've sat on both sides of the fence and it is. It can be difficult to navigate that, but yeah, often I find that I see the most. Ironically, I'm going to use a really, really like Christian-y language.

49:37

You're already cringing I know, I know, because I cringe at this word in general because of the connotation to it, um, but you see, such purity in that and particularly in that, uh, the queer joy and the queer pride and um, and I think it almost, you know, awakens a part of your spirit that was never allowed to be awake.

50:08 - Stacey (Guest)

It always has to be asleep yeah, you've summarized that so beautifully, so beautifully that that whole feeling of never and I think that's why I chase God so much yeah, it was there was never that fullness that I have now, um, and I'm I'm so, so grateful for um. Now on on the other side, um, but yeah, it's like everyone can be our teacher. Everyone in every event, can be our teacher. So when I started doing going no, I'm going to go into therapy space because I've always felt really, really honored to hear people's stories um, so I love, like I love, what you're doing of sharing people's stories. I find it just empowering and beautiful and brings a sense of people knowing they're not alone in their feelings. Yeah, so important, absolutely so important. And yeah, so, coming into that and going. Where do I want to work? What realm do I want to attract? And even with that, like, I identify as an LGBTQIA plus therapist, um focusing on sex therapy because of all the shaming around that area um, the patriarchal as well.

51:34 - Sam (Host)

Like yeah, they're intertwined.

51:36 - Stacey (Guest)

Yeah, they, they, absolutely, they, absolutely um, but I, I just always attract someone who's who's grappling with.

51:46 - Sam (Host)

they either are or they're grappling with their own um sexual identity, and more often than not, there is religion involved, um, so, finding that space for them and being able to hold space for them, um, it's, it's again still so, so honoring and so beautiful to be able to do that, um, but you know having to hold your tongue sometimes and just be like that's why I love this podcast because I don't have to have my therapist hat on, where I filter what I say Although I mean, even if people go on my social media, I'm not super filtered on there anyway and and I find that that's what people are drawn to, though, because they need and I was drawn to that when I went seeking therapy as well I needed someone who was going to be just as authentic and as real and like this shit is fucking awful sort of real um and um, and people need, uh, you to put language to what they're going through and to say that was abusive.

53:09

That is not okay, um, and, and they need that validation, and part of you know what you just said in terms of, you know, feeling less alone was where this podcast was born, and I, you know, yes, we can learn a lot through therapy and through, I guess, the logical. This behavior is not okay, but I think that, the most you know, we heal in relationship and in connection and um, and we often feel the most understood when we hear our stories and our experiences in someone else's exactly.

53:51 - Stacey (Guest)

I, yeah, I love that I love that so much, um, it's it really. There is so much power in our words and our stories and what? Yeah, you would just put that eloquently.

54:06 - Sam (Host)

I'm not even gonna try and and also reclaiming what used to be like your testimony. Like you said, your testimony is your story, but being able to voice your story in an authentic way, without the need for it to save someone else's soul, yes, like, maybe let's take that off the table and actually, you know, remove the eternal pressure for your testimony to be a blessing to someone else. Um, let's remove that and let's just go. Actually, your story matters always, regardless, and so, um, yeah, where is your sense of spirituality, your sense of God now?

54:59 - Stacey (Guest)

I would identify myself more on the agnostic scale. I have to be very careful when entering into intellectual conversations on TikTok because I can find myself in white Christian TikTok and I'm just like queer, everything queer. Get me back home.

55:24 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, the algorithm is sometimes not kind to us.

55:27 - Stacey (Guest)

No, it's like you look at one thing or you Google one thing. So, yeah, I would describe myself more as agnostic, um, and seeking. I I totally, you know, can believe that jesus was a, a person who existed at a time, but the rest, um, in the weaponry that's been created from that um, in so many ways, shapes and forms, going back so many, so many hundreds of years, yeah, um, I just can't get on board with um. I knew a a beautiful south sudanese man and um, he had a big church over in south South Sudan and the situation over there got too hectic and he had to leave. And coming to Australia, he just organized services for Africans and he and I sat down one day and it was right in my grapple with you know, hearing that homosexual wasn't always in the bible and really researching that.

56:37

And I asked, and even though it was a very traditional South Sudanese man, I was like do you think that homosexuality was always in the Bible, or da-da-da? And he was like well, aramaic doesn't exist anymore. The closest we have is Arabic. He said one word can mean five things. Yeah, so to translate, translate everything, it's impossible, but the message is always the same. And I said okay, what's that? And he's like love. Yeah, if you can just love everybody without asking of anything, you've got the message. Yeah, and I was like okay, good chat actually yeah, good chat yeah, it was.

57:26

It was great. It was great and it allowed me to spend a lot of sunrises at the beach and it allowed me to release release my own ideology that I had built and my own relationship of man and church. Release that and just find peace in the ability that I knew that I had to love people and love their stories and love community, community, no matter what that looked like. And that was, yeah, my life. Little saving copy chat with a beautiful man. I love that yeah, so grateful for that.

58:15 - Sam (Host)

It reminds me, and it reminds me because I have it tattooed on my right arm um, but there is a song out of my favorite musical, rent, which is about um, oh, stacy is giving me a wonderful reaction to that. Um, if people have not seen rent, trust me, go and watch it. It's incredible, um, it is. I describe it as the musical that even non-musical fans will love. Um, it's incredible, um, but it is. I have a line from the main song, seasons of Love, tattooed on my arm and it says measure your life in love. And it just reminded me of you know, everything comes back to love. Yeah, yeah, um, I love that. Okay, I have been finishing these episodes with one question, which is what would you say to somebody who is deep in their deconstruction?

59:18 - Stacey (Guest)

the answer is love, and though I would that everything is valid.

59:23 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I love that everything is valid yeah, I mean, and love, but like love for you also. So I yeah, I think that that is still a super relevant answer, I think love is a valid answer. Yeah, Saying no is a complete sentence. Love should be as well.

59:47 - Stacey (Guest)

Yes, the validity because they you know, we go through the deconstruction with so many different emotions that we're told not to have yeah, so being able to say your anger is valid your guilt is valid, your sadness is valid, your grief is valid, your joy, your wonder, because, as we know, it's healing grief.

All these emotions, they're not linear, they ebb and they flow, and these are things that are now like ingrained in us and are defaults, and they're all valid, they all have a place in your story and they don't make you any less valid.

Yeah, it's just your humanity. Your humanity is valid yeah exactly yeah thank you so much for joining me.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been so fun.

I love every time I get to do these um. As much as I love my US and Canadian guests. I love um. I love having another Australian or even a New Zealand voice on the other side, so there's a comfort about that.

Yeah, so I love that. So, thank you. Oh, you're welcome, you're so very welcome.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.