This episode features a compelling interview with Dr. Michael Brodier, a seasoned pastor and the visionary creator of DestinyFinder, a powerful tool designed to help individuals uncover and live out their God-given purpose. Dr. Brodier underscores the critical importance of establishing a strong identity in Christ as the foundation for pursuing one's destiny. He highlights that a firm grasp of identity not only provides clarity and direction but also shields individuals from the pitfalls of seeking external validation.

The conversation delves deep into the DestinyFinder process, which guides individuals in examining their personal history, spiritual gifts, passions, and dreams to articulate a unique "God-dream." This structured journey is designed to empower believers to step confidently into their divine calling. Dr. Brodier passionately advocates for a transformative church model that prioritizes the spiritual growth and development of its members. He emphasizes the need for mentorship and intentional community support, fostering an environment where believers can thrive in their faith and purpose.

Throughout the discussion, Dr. Brodier and the host explore the vital connection between faith, identity, and mission within a community context. They argue that a healthy, Kingdom-focused community plays an indispensable role in helping individuals navigate the complexities of life while staying aligned with their God-given destiny.

For more information on DestinyFinder and how it can help you discover and live out your purpose, visit https://destinyfinder.com/kingdomtv

To explore more Kingdom-focused content, including podcasts, teachings, and resources on revival, discipleship, and New Testament ministry, check out https://kingdomreformation.org

Takeaways:

• Identity in Christ is essential for fulfilling one's destiny and purpose in life.
• Discipleship should focus on development rather than mere delegation of tasks or roles.
• Community plays a crucial role in personal growth and discovering one's calling in Christ.
• Understanding one's history, gifts, and passions is vital for uncovering destiny.
• Motivation should be rooted in God's promises, love, and the joy of serving Him.
• The journey of transformation involves intentionality, mentorship, and an ongoing relationship with God.

Links referenced in this episode:

• kingdomreformation.org
• destinyfinder.com/kingdomtv
• kingdomcommunity.tv

Foreign.

Well, hey there, everyone.

Glenn Blakeney here.

And welcome to this edition, this episode of Kingdom Community, Kingdom Reformation.

We've kind of been changing the name here back and forth actually, just to give you an update.

Our website now is Kingdom Reformation.org.

lots of great content on there and we would love for you just to go.

In order to access it all, you actually have to subscribe.

There's a paid subscription option, but there is a free subscription option if that's what you choose.

And sure, go ahead, do that.

I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

Well, excuse me.

Today we're continuing on the topic of destiny and I have Dr.

Michael Brodere back with me and we, we want to really help you guys to fulfill your destiny.

And one of the things that I feel is so important, Michael, in everything, you know, you can do all the right things, lots of motion, but really no momentum and activity isn't necessarily the sign or busyness, I guess the sign of being intentional and fulfilling our destiny.

So want to really help people with that.

Just like it says in Acts 13 about David served the purposes of God in his life, his generation.

That's a powerful verse.

We know about that.

So here we are, guys, part two.

And we're going to be talking about destiny and identity.

And Michael, would you just take a moment and just kind of let everyone know a little bit about your background and in terms of what makes you an authority in this space as well.

Excellent.

Yeah.

Well, as I shared last, last session, you know, my whole heart has been to see people transformed into the fullness of who Jesus created them to be.

I was a pastor in San Francisco for over 33 years and it was a challenging time.

There was a lot of issues that we had to deal with.

A lot of spiritual warfare, a lot of amazing, beautiful breakthroughs.

But in the process there I, I developed this, this thing called Destiny Finder.

It was probably in the late 80s that I first came up with the framework for this.

It was a combination of understanding the need for deep disciples.

Understanding the challenge of discipleship is that every single person is so incredibly different than each other that we had to be able to customize discipleship to the individual.

And what is the customization process?

Well, it's understanding the individual's history and story.

How did they come to Christ, how did they.

What was their journey like is looking at their gift mix and how they are designed by God and then also looking at their unique passions and dreams.

And so we developed this, it was about 12 years ago.

We put it Online in the initial form, it took us a number of years to get all the pieces in place because it's quite expensive to develop.

But then actually in the last three or four years we've really brought it into a, fine tuned it to be a tool that can help people to first of all discover who they are in Christ and who Christ is in them, and then to be able to really take concrete steps in both their skill development, in their character development, in their community development, to actually see the purposes of God fulfilled in their life in a glorious and beautiful way.

And so it was through pastoring, gosh, hundreds and even several thousand individuals, that God really downloaded this whole process to us and we're happy to share it with all of you.

So God bless you all today.

Wow, thank you.

Yeah.

And more information about Destiny Finder and how you can access all the amazing resources, guys.

It can be found@destinyfinder.com kingdomtv and there's a discount there for exclusive to Kingdom community TV viewers.

So yeah, feel free to check that out and more information at the end of this episode as well.

So Michael, let's talk a little bit about obviously destiny, but I'm really intrigued with the idea of identity as well.

What role does identity play in terms of preparing us and anything that, that you want to share that's relevant to that.

I really love for everyone to, to hear your wisdom on that.

Yeah, I mean, identity is absolutely preliminary to destiny.

A lot of people teach on destiny and we've had many good teachers cover the topic.

But unfortunately, if you pursue your destiny without anchoring your identity in Christ, you've got a problem because most of us come out of this world as we come to Christ with a, with a destiny that's been twisted a little bit by the world.

I mean, I'm sorry, an identity that's been twisted by the world.

In other words, we grew up from childhood with a sinful nature.

We've been involved in different experiences and circumstances, some positive, some negative.

We've been exposed to sins of different kinds.

And as we grow up, we actually adopt an identity, a self awareness, a self perspective that is really contrary to the heart of God.

And then if we bring that into Christ without really allowing the identity of Christ to be imprinted upon us, and then we start pursuing our destiny without a clear reformation of our identity, we can create some pretty big problems.

In fact, if you just look at some of the news that's come out about different pastors and leaders that have fallen into sin recently, usually that's a Result of the fact that they did not allow Christ to transform their character fully before they began to step into higher and higher levels of visibility in their destiny.

And so I believe that identity is preliminary to destiny.

Now, I don't mind sharing the fact that destiny exists in your life when you're just a new believer.

Okay.

I believe that we can actually take somebody who just came to Christ and say, God has an incredible purpose in your life.

Psalm 139 says all of your days were written in his book when as yet there were none of them.

If we look at Ephesians 2:10 that we talked about last time, that we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before ordained that we should walk in them.

There's just no doubt at all in Scripture that every single person has a God given calling, a God given purpose and destiny.

But if we allow ourselves to develop too much into our destiny without adopting the full revelation of who we are in Christ, we will actually be doing so with what we would call an orphan spirit, that an orphan attitude that I have to strive to be loved, I have to strive to be accepted, I have to strive to be appreciated and acknowledged.

And ultimately we become driven by external factors rather than the internal work of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us.

And so we want to make sure that identity is on the table.

It's not that you're going to have a perfect identity before you take steps into your destiny, but it's all a process.

But we want to make sure that in every iteration you are paying attention to the fact that character is more important than gifting and fruitfulness.

Okay.

And character emerges out of our understanding of who we are in Christ and who Christ is in us.

So that's where we start with this whole identity question.

Yeah, love it and thank you.

You know, it's talking about those who are basically the ones who are going to persevere, press through persecution, hardship, and specifically talks about whether it's the Antichrist or not.

They're, you know, those who are, they're flattered.

And, and what he says, of course, is it's those who know their God, they shall be strong and they'll do great exploits.

And for me, Michael, I've broken that down into first of all intimacy with the Father and then our identity, obviously in Christ.

And then destiny flows out of that.

Those who know their God, it's Hebrew and Yada, very powerful word, experientially personally.

So, yeah, we let.

Let's just kind of dive into that a little bit more.

Not necessarily that verse, but just the idea of identity in terms of our relationship with the Father, with God in general.

And how is identity shaped?

Is it just something that we, you know, read all of the new creation reality scriptures, all the verses that talk about our identity, and we just quote those over and over again and.

Or is there something more to it than that?

What.

How's that formed?

How does that emerge in our life?

Our.

Our identity?

Yeah, I mean, it's.

It's tremendous.

I mean, if you want a full teaching on identity from the scripture, there's no better single text that I know of, except Ephesians, chapter one, where it talks about the fact that we are chosen in Him.

It says, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ, and he chose us in him before the foundations of the world.

When that truth gets in you, that we would be holy and without blame before him in love, when that truth kind of penetrates your heart and starts to permeate the inside of your being, you realize that God chose you and he is in the process of transforming you.

Another scripture in.

In Romans 12 says that we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds.

That there is a process by which every person who was formed in the darkness of this world, this world system, is now brought into Christ and being trans.

Transformed into the fullness of who Jesus called us to be.

That this transformational process is what we're talking about.

See, in our current American consumer culture, we have this value for celebrity, and everybody's trying to be known, to have a great reputation.

How many followers on Facebook can you get or Instagram that?

Everybody's striving after that visibility.

But the fact is, is that character matters ten times more than gifting or output.

And so what happens is, is that we live in a culture that fosters that artificial, external thing.

But, you know, if you look at my five values, you know, intimacy is number one.

And that's so true.

Identity, okay, is number two.

Integrity is number three.

I want to be the same person on the inside that I am on the outside.

I want to be the same person today and tomorrow that I was yesterday.

In other words, I want to walk in integr.

Integrity.

And.

But in order to do those three things, intimacy, identity, and integrity, there has to be intentionality.

I have to have this sense that, no, I am a person in process I am growing into the fullness of who Jesus created me to be.

And that's ultimately unto the fulfillment of God's purpose and destiny in my life.

But in order for me to go there, in order for you to make that journey into the fullness of Christ, I must concentrate on the inside, the, the internal transformation as I'm developing the external impact gifting.

So it's, It's a con.

Complex process.

And that's why in the journey guide that we have at DestinyFinder.com forward/DOM TV, you'll see that we actually spend a massive part of our, what we call the mapper, mapping your journey in terms of the perfect personal transformational dynamic.

We're not just interested in getting you into some position where you're bearing fruit.

We want to make sure the internal fruit of the Holy Spirit is just as important.

And that's really where this whole identity thing takes place.

Wow, that's really good.

You've touched on several very important matters here.

You just talked about the external fruit, but then there's the internal fruit.

What.

What's the difference?

Wow.

Well, the.

You know, again, if you look at a tree, the quality of the fruit depends on the power of the roots.

And if we're not rooted deeply in Christ, if we have not actually built the kind of intimate relationship with God, the ability to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit where he can actually speak to us, where the convicting work of the Holy Spirit.

The scripture says that the Holy Spirit was given to convince the world of sin and righteousness and judgment to come, that there's a work that the Holy Spirit does to guide us into all truth.

And we must develop an intimate connection in such a way that we can hear his voice.

We can discern between the voice of the Spirit and our own mind or the.

Or the voice of the enemy.

And where we can begin to humble ourselves and obey that voice in a way that produces true kingdom expression.

Okay.

And that's what produces the transformation on the inside.

I mean, that's the whole new covenant is that the law was given, but the law was external.

It was outside of us.

I remember as a, as a total heathen walking out one night, into the starry night, looking at myself and feeling so frustrated about my sinfulness and my brokenness.

I remember looking up into the heavens and just saying, God, why didn't you make a religion that could change me from the inside out?

Little did I know that a few months later Jesus was going to come into my life and be that source of Internal transformation, changing me from the inside out.

Jeremiah 31 says, I will make a new agreement with them.

Not like the old agreement, not like the old covenant.

I will make a new covenant.

I will write my laws on their heart.

And this is really the inner work of the Holy Spirit that ultimately culminates in the fulfillment of our destiny.

So it's an amazing journey we're on.

Wow.

Okay, great.

Hey, so let's just maybe walk us through the whole process.

You referred to the journey guide, and what does it look like?

You know, obviously, everybody's at a different place in their journey.

You mentioned last time on our session about delegation without development.

So it's not just doing tasks or even being active in ministry.

There's a developmental process here.

But in terms of the actual journey, can you just walk us through that?

What would it look like if we just go, hey, we head over to destinyfinder.com kingdomtv we sign up.

What's that gonna do?

What's it gonna look like?

Yeah.

Well, the first step that we really want you to focus on in the developmental process is focusing on your history.

Because we operate under the assumption that God knew you before you knew him, and that God was at work in your life.

Even through the most painful things that he did not ordain.

He actually is able to work in all the difficult and positive aspects of your life to bring you to where you are.

Okay, so God's at work.

Can you discern his fingerprints in your life as you look back as a believer now, and you're looking back discerning God's will?

Because we even go back to the question of what did you want to be when you grew up?

Because we believe that even that could be a little bit of a clue, a little bit of an indicator as to what the Lord might have for you ultimately in your life.

So you're.

You're going through the circumstances of your childhood, your family life.

Many times our understanding of God is influenced so much by our relationship with our dad and our mom.

Okay.

These things are all real, and we want to know them.

And we also want to make sure that if you're working with a mentor within your church or ministry that you're involved in that.

That mentor has an idea of what are some of the formative dynamics of your life.

Okay, then I want to know your salvation experience.

I want to know, what was it about Jesus that attracted you to him so that you could engage him, so that you could ultimately humble yourself and receive salvation.

The cleansing of your sins, being born again and being filled with the Holy Spirit, that's really the starting point right there.

Once you've been filled with the Spirit, now you're able to start this journey that we talk about in the journey guide.

But part of that, then again, is understanding where you are in that journey at any given point and what you need in that journey to take the next step forward.

And so with a mentor, ideally, if you have one, but if not just with the Holy Spirit, you're going to be able then to discern both your history and how it has impacted you, the wiring of God in your life up to the moment that you're in.

And then we want to look at the gifts of the Holy Spirit in your life.

And then we see three sets of gifting.

The Ephesians 4 gifting that we talked about last week, the Romans 12 gifting, that really speaks more of your personality, the style of person that you are, and then ultimately the supernatural gifting of First Corinthians 12.

We want to assess those, because that's the raw material that you'll actually be drawing from to pursue your destiny.

They're the frameworks of the way God's wired you.

Okay.

And then once you know that, we want to start looking at this issue of your passions.

What do you care about most in this world?

And so you're going to be led through a series of discovery processes through the website that will guide you.

And if you have a mentor on the journey, all the better.

Okay.

But then when you understand your passions in relationship to your gifting, in relationship to your history, you're ready to start doing what we would call the dream work.

Okay.

We talk about it in terms of a God dream.

What is God's dream for you?

And how can you begin to identify that dream in such a way that you can begin to clarify it and then begin to take solid steps towards that dream?

And so this is really what we're trying to go after, is that ultimately, not that the dream is the perfect identifier of what you're called to be and do in the future, but it's a.

It's an approximate identifier.

And I can break that down a little bit more closely if you want me to, Glenn, because there are clear scriptures.

We talked about them a little bit last week, but we can go into greater depth today.

Yeah, please, let's do that.

And just before you.

Before you do that, obviously, we have some notes that we want to send out to everyone.

All you need to do is head over to KingdomReformation.org, subscribe, and then we'll be sending out an email where you can access really an overview and even the transcript of this interview, plus the video replay and last week's video as well.

But yeah, let's talk about that.

Please unpack that for us, Michael.

Okay.

Well, here's the thing is, you know, one of the problems with the teaching on Destiny is that there's a lot of inspiration but very little instruction as to actually how to take solid steps.

But if you're beginning a journey, you really want to know the destination before you start out.

Okay?

Like, I live in California, okay.

And if I was traveling to New York City, I'd want to make some determination as to how I'm going to map the journey.

Okay.

If it's summertime, I want to go north because it's so beautiful along that northern track, the highway, you know, the Interstate 90 out to New York City.

If it was in the winter time, I'd want to go south because there's no snow, there's less problems with the weather.

And so I might go, you know.

In other words, you want to think through, strategize your mapping of the journey that you're about to take.

You want to think about where you're going to stay along the way.

You're going to want to think about how you get fuel and food and so forth.

But then once you get to the east coast, you're going to have to make some determination.

If you hit it up north, you're going to need to go south and kind of get into the city.

If you're going to go south, you want to go north.

It's like the journey requires some strategic consideration, okay?

But you got to know where you're aiming first, okay?

And that's why we, we deal with this idea of the dream.

What is your long term destination?

At least approximately, God has the ability to steer your car as you go.

But we want to make sure that you at least know the general direction, okay?

And so that's really why we focus in on the dream.

And the way that we do that is by understanding that God is at work within you to shape your dreams.

Okay?

And let me give you a couple of scriptures for that so that you have some bearing in the word of God.

Now, of course, we have, you know, the example of, of Abraham.

God spoke to him and said, you're going to have a son, and through your son all the nations of the earth will be blessed.

So he was living in a, in a relationship with A promise that shaped him over the years.

We can look at Joseph, Joseph, a literal dream that his brothers were bowing down to him.

Then he had a literal dream a second time that his parents were also bowing down to him.

So he was holding this dream in his heart that he was going to be ultimately the leader of his family, of his clan.

And ultimately you.

You know the story.

He was sold into slavery.

He ended up in prison.

There was just a series of obstacles, a series of painful situations that happened, but he kept holding on to the dream until ultimately the dream came to pass.

In fact, there's a verse in Psalm 105 that is very important to this process because he said in this particular verse, it says, speaking of Joseph, that until the word of the Lord came to pass, the word of the Lord tested him.

And so we want to see what is the word of the Lord in your life?

And we believe one of the purest ways of getting at that is, is to ask you, what is your dream?

And this is the question, if you had no limitations of time, energy, money, or talent, and you knew you could not possibly fail, what would you want to do for God?

Okay.

And we believe that if you've known the Lord for any length of time, that God has already been at work in your heart to help you answer that question.

Okay.

One of the verses we would use is Psalm 37, verse 4.

Okay.

Says, Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

Now, as we delight ourselves in him, he actually answers, the things that we love and long for, he gives us the things we love for.

But there's another.

Another way of looking at that verse, which is, as we delight ourselves in the Lord, he actually shapes our desires to desire the very thing that he has intended for us.

Okay, you say, well, that's one verse that's helpful.

But, well, let me show you another verse.

There's one of the most important verses is John 15.

And you're all familiar with this, where Jesus says, I am the vine, you're the branches, abide in me.

So that's a pretty hefty thing.

We want to live our life.

We want to abide.

We want to have constant fellowship with Him.

And then he says, let my word abide in you.

So we want to study this book.

We want to make sure that we're reading and consuming the Scripture in such a way that it feeds us and transforms us.

But then if you fast forward into verse seven, he says something very interesting.

He says, if you abide in me and My words abide in you.

You'll ask whatever you want, and it will be done for you.

Now, it's not whatever you want.

Oh, God, I want a Ferrari.

And, oh, God, I want a beautiful, you know, model to be my wife.

And I want, you know, whatever.

I mean, obviously we can want those things, but that's not what he's saying.

He's saying, if you abide in me like a branch abiding in a vine, if you get your life source out of me and you're called to bear fruit, guess what?

I will be shaping the very basis of your desires.

You can ask whatever you want, but the presupposition is this, that you've been abiding in him and His Word has been abiding in you.

So that ultimately what you're asking is the very thing that he has shaped you to ask for.

Absolutely, yeah.

And there's one final verse I'll note really quickly, which is in the second chapter of Philippians, verse 13, where he says this, that.

That God is at work inside of you.

Yes.

To will and to do, to make you want to, and then to give you the power to do it.

Yeah.

And so with those three verses, in the testimony of two or three verses, every word should be established.

These three things indicate very clearly that God is at work in my desires.

So when I honestly come before him and I ask that question with honesty, if I had no limitations of time, energy, money, or talent, and I knew I could not possibly fail, what would I want to do for God?

That gives me a pretty good marker on the horizon of the.

Of the destination I'm to be shooting for.

And then we start to think about, well, what is the best pathway to arrive at that goal?

And what we trust the Lord for is that even if I'm not seeing the right point on the horizon.

Exactly.

That God's going to shape my.

Shape my journey.

Okay.

You know, this says that, you know, a man sets his course, but God directs his steps.

Yeah.

And so we believe.

But.

But here's another angle on that.

You cannot steer a car that's not moving.

So our goal in Destiny Finder is to get you moving down the road, even in first gear, because we know that if you start moving, God's going to be partnering with you to direct your steps in the path that he wants you in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's awesome.

No, no, that's great.

So, yeah, 100.

You know, the fact is, as we abide in him, as you said in John 15, what happens is the life of Christ flows into us, that shapes our desires, it, you know, our affections.

All of that is transformed by his life, his desires, his heart becoming ours.

And I love Peter talks about being partakers of the divine nature.

Obviously the Father's nature is a super nature.

It's above ours.

It's, it's not, you know, just a little bit better than, than ours.

It's a entirely different nature.

And when his nature is in us, it's actually make certain things are natural for us now that formerly were unnatural and then vice versa things that, that were natural for us now really are unnatural.

Like First John talks about, it's unnatural for us to live in habitual sin, right as that's right, those who are in new covenant relationship with Him.

But it's natural for us to live an overcoming life to, to hear the voice of God and so on.

So that's very powerful.

Second Peter, where you just read is one of my favorite destiny verses because it says in verse 10, be sure to make your call and election sure.

In other words, we have been called by God.

But the.

But eternal life doesn't begin when you die.

It begins the moment you're born again.

In other words, you've already entered into your eternal life and so you want to make your call in Christ and your election in Christ positive.

And then you say, well how do I do that?

You go back to verse three and four, that he's giving you divine nature, that he's giving you all things that pertain to life and godliness.

In other words, everything you need to become, everything he's called you to be is already there.

It's already in you.

But sometimes, you know, like our atm, we, we forget the code, you know, we don't know how to access the wealth that he's placed in us in the Holy Spirit.

And so therefore we're not walking out the destiny that he has for us, and that's what we want to talk about a little bit in a few moments, is how do we actually make this journey and how do we overcome some of the obstacles in the journey?

Because there will be obstacles.

And that's what we, you know, that's why we really want to identify the, the process.

Yeah.

So on what you said earlier about, obviously it's very difficult to steer a car that's not moving.

So what about, you know, we've got the two extremes.

We have those who run ahead of God, very zealous, they don't wait on Him.

Then on the other hand, we've Got the whole analysis paralysis thing.

Like, well, I'm not moving.

I'm doing anything, you know, God hasn't spoken to me and I, whatever, and nothing happens.

You know, 10 years later, there seems to be no progress.

And just a little bit of a pet peeve here, Michael, is the fact that hearing the voice of God, getting a word, a prophetic word, even from the Lord and even that type of thing, there has to be more than just like, okay, God, thank you for your word.

You know, so how.

There's obviously a journey and you talked about partnering with the Lord in that space.

So, yeah, let's.

Let's go there, please.

Let's double click on that.

Yeah.

No.

One of the things we.

We spend a lot of time on in Destiny Finder is helping to identify probably about at least a dozen areas of guidance and confirmation that you're looking for.

And one of those is your heart.

Like, what is your dream?

But another one is, what are some of the prophetic words have been spoken over you?

What are you good at?

What do you love?

What have people spoken over you?

What kind of fruit have you borne in the past?

See all of these aspects, you know, what.

What does the word of go like?

If you looked at your five favorite verses, is there any clues there as to what your destiny might be?

So we actually compile a long list of those different aspects and have, like, room for you to write out little interactive aspects of this so that you can begin to be sure you can be confirmed, because you're approaching this topic from, you know, 10, 12 different angles.

And then you come out at the end of it with a sense of like, like, wow, I have a lot of evidence here that I might be called to do this or to do that.

And again, because each person is so unique, we want to make sure that we're not actually superimposing some generic purpose over everybody, but we're actually able to step back as mentors and be able to look at your destiny, to look at the things that God has revealed field, and then to guide you carefully in a way that really honors your uniqueness, that honors your.

Your ability.

But on the.

At the same time, though, we want to make sure you're moving forward sequentially, not running ahead of God, but that you're not getting that sort of analysis paralysis issue where you're not just thinking everything through so, so deeply that you become paralyzed by the process.

And so movement is something that we're after.

We really want to see movement.

And that's why when you Brought this up a couple of minutes ago, Glenn, about the difference between delegation and development.

See, as I said last week, I believe that the highest purpose of any church, local church, and hopefully all of you are part of a local church, the highest purpose is to be a Destiny Incubator leader.

What does that mean?

Well, our goal as a church is that every single member in our church would be thriving, that they would be operating at the fullness that they can, given their current level of healing, their current level of.

Of godliness, their current level of maturity in Christ, that they're operating at the highest level of fruitfulness for Christ, because that's what he died for.

That's what he deserves, is our fruitful faithfulness.

Okay?

He said, I have appointed you that you'll bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples back in John 15.

Okay, so back off of that a little bit.

What we're looking at is we want to.

We want to create environments in our local church where people are moving forward in the pursuit of their destiny.

But one of the biggest mistakes we've made in the body of Christ, in the Western world especially, is that we're so focused on getting people to perform, getting them to actually fulfill a job.

Well, we need volunteers because, you know, Sunday morning is such a big deal that we need our children's church workers in place, and we need our.

Our greeters and ushers in place, and we need our worship team to be functioning because we want, you know, Coldplay worship every Sunday morning.

And, you know, it's like, I mean, we get so transfixed with the.

The product, with the production, and then the priority becomes getting as many volunteers serving as you can.

But Jesus never said, go into all the world and raise up volunteers.

Come on.

He said, go into all the world and make disciples.

So here's the issue of the local church, is that delegation is up here.

I need you to do a job.

You better show up and do the job.

Development is down here in our priority level.

Yeah, we need to switch that around.

If we truly want to be a Destiny Incubator, we have to go after development.

And delegation's still important, but delegation is a tool of development.

In other words, I can't raise up an adult in my family unless I have them do chores.

If I don't have my kids do chores at the end of the day, guess what?

They're not going to be prepared for adulthood when they go off to college, when they get their first job, they're not going to be trustworthy.

They're not going to be good stewards because I didn't work on stewardship from the time they were three years old cleaning their room.

You know, one time I had this situation, Glenn, where my son came to me and said, dad, he was 25 years old or so, and he said, when I was a kid, you said you had a joke that really hurt my feelings.

And I said, gosh, son, I'm so sorry, what was that?

And he said, well, you know, after dinner you'd be shouting into the, from the, you sitting, watching the news or something.

You yell into the kitchen, say, honey, speaking to your wife.

You know, don't do the dishes.

That's what we had kids for.

You know, it's like.

And we've all made that joke.

Well, you know, I had you to mow my lawn.

I had you to.

No, I didn't have my kids.

When I saw my wife, I didn't say, wow, she's produce some great dishwashers.

I'm going to marry her.

I'm going to make dishwashers every day, you know?

No, right.

I, I had a dream that my sons and daughters would rise up and become the, the leaders of the body of Christ for the next generation.

That they would be world changers.

Okay, So I did not have my kids to have to do my dishes.

But.

Right.

I don't start with my 3 year old and help them clean their room.

You know what?

I could clean their room in five minutes.

It takes me a half an hour work to train them to clean their room because they get so distracted, blah, blah, blah.

No, if I don't have them clean their room at 3 and make their bed at 5 and do their homework at 7 and clear the table at 9 and do the dishes at 11 and mow the lawn at 13, they're not going to drive a car when they're 16.

They're not going to go off to college and be fruitful.

They're not going to find a spouse and marry and have the children of the next generation.

In other words, it takes that entire process of delegation.

But my goal's not delegation.

My goal is development.

Right?

I want my sons and daughters to grow up in maturity and character, in skills and abilities, and delegation is part of that.

But the problem is the, the Western church is so focused on delegation and so neglectful of development that ultimately people know how to, how to hand out a bulletin, but they don't know how to win somebody to Christ.

They don't know how to make a disciple.

So we need to shift Our priorities deeply.

If we want to see the Great Commission fulfilled in our generation.

Yeah.

Yes.

100 and so good.

I've been beating that drum all for a while now, and currently right now as well, we're in the process of planting a church.

Church.

And we, we said the whole thing, the pressure has been on, like, oh, we need people to work with kids, we need this.

We didn't.

I and my wife and I, Lynn and I, we just literally said to everybody, hey guys, chill out.

We're not going to do that.

Let's focus on discipleship.

Let's focus on just allowing Jesus to do his work in us.

And then out of that place, he sets in the body.

He sets in the body, the members.

And so there's no pressure on that.

And unless the Lord builds a house in that sense, brick by brick, connecting.

It's that whole idea like a Lego, right?

The difference between a gathering and an assembly.

A gathering, a lot of people in a room.

An assembly is how we connect together.

It's like throwing.

Dumping a bucket of Legos in a room or actually assembling the Legos together.

And to me, that's what it's all about.

So I really appreciate your passion for that.

All right, let's.

Let's go to anything else you feel relevant.

And obviously, one question I do have and, and feel free to just integrate this into whatever you want to share next is the role of community.

So let's say we have a local church that is really a pastor.

Maybe say, hey, I want to bring my people through Destiny Finder.

Can they do that as a community?

Absolutely.

In fact, we recommend.

It's done in community.

We wrote it so that an individual without community could grab a hold of this and really run with it.

But it is ideal in community.

In fact, when you go through the dream stage of our developmental process on the website, the next step is beginning to engage what we call the Mapper.

And the Mapper has three different points of focus.

The first one is your.

What we call your ministry development.

And the reason we use the word ministry, although this applies to everybody in every field.

So if you're a CEO of a company, you're a janitor in a high school, or you're a teacher in that high school, or you're a movie producer in la, which I've worked with.

You know, in other words, there's all these different areas of vocation.

But ultimately, if you're a believer, your vocation is just a framework for your ministry because you're going to be Ministering to people in that.

So we want to help you identify what are the ministry needs that you need to grow in.

What are the skills that you need to develop to really be fruitful, both professionally, but also ministerially within the world of your passion and dream?

Okay, so ministry development is number one.

Character development, or what we call personal development is number two.

And so we identify and we give you an assessment on your personal character.

Where are some of the needs that you need to grow in?

Okay.

And those two things are super essential for mapping your journey because your journey is a developmental journey in terms of skill development and in terms of character development.

But the final one is your community development.

In other words, you cannot fulfill your destiny ultimately apart from spiritual mothers and fathers, apart from peers that you're walking with, apart from a mentor in your life, apart from a framework, apart from those that you're actually mentoring yourself.

In other words, people grow.

Most the studies have been done, you actually learn something most when you're teaching it to others.

And so we want to help you actually grow in those three areas, ministry, character, and community.

Because we believe that community is absolutely essential.

It's not just a by, you know, it's not just a secondary consideration.

Okay.

And so with, we map the journey and we set goals in each of these areas for growth because development again is the highest priority.

So we set goals and then that goes into our final segment, which is called the tracker.

And the tracker is automatically populated by the goals that you discover as you're going through the developmental discovery process in those three areas.

Okay.

So that's why we've actually developed a small group program that works amazingly, we, and in fact, if, when we're seeking to move a church because one of our main passions in another branch of my ministry called Pastors Coach is to shift a church from a pastoral foundation, as we talked about last week week, to an apostolic foundation.

And we see apostolic foundation as, as the mobilization of the saints, the, the development, the priesthood of the believer.

We want to move from a place where we're just doing consumer Christianity, where we're doing spectator Christianity, by and large, we want to move to a place where we're mobilizing every member for their God given purpose and destiny.

And so if we're moving in that, in that track towards that, one of the things we actually advise our pastors is that they need to do destiny finder with their core leadership team first.

Okay.

Because most pastors don't even know who their people are.

I remember I was talking to a Pastor one time, and he said, gosh, I'm having such a trouble with my executive pastor.

We're really at odds.

We're butting heads all the time.

And I said, wow, well, tell me about it.

Who is this guy?

You know, what's.

What's his.

What's his dream?

What's his destiny?

Dream?

What are you talking about?

I said, do you know?

Do you know what he aspires to, what his heart is for?

He says, I, I don't think I've ever asked him that question.

I said, how can you possibly lead somebody and develop somebody unless you know what their destination is?

Yeah.

Your goal is to help them on their journey so they can become everything God's imprinted them to be.

How can you lead them and how can you walk with them if you haven't engaged that.

That.

And he was, you know, obviously shocked by the question, but he had never thought about it.

See, we want pastors to work with their primary team to ask the historic questions.

Who are you?

Where did you come from?

What were your circumstances?

What shaped you as you were growing up?

We want pastors to ask the question, how did you come to Christ?

I want to hear your salvation story.

We want pastors to identify their gift mix.

Are you more apostolic or more evangelistic or more prophetic?

I want our pastors to know their people so that we can guide them step by step into the long term, ultimate destiny that God has for them.

And that may mean that they actually leave your church someday to plant a church somewhere else or to start an orphanage or to move to Hollywood to make a movie or to become that worship leader that's now getting the Dove Awards or whatever it is.

Whatever their dream is, we want to help them and ultimately send them.

Because that is the essence of apostolic, is we send people into God's purposes.

Okay?

The word apostolic comes from a root word to mean to send.

Okay?

So our goal is to raise them up and send them out.

But if we do it carefully, if we don't just send them off half cocked, you know, with just, you know, kind of like whip them out, you know?

No, we want to develop them well.

The developmental process is going to take three to five years or seven years or 10 years before they're ready to be sent.

Well, then at that point we have the joy as a spiritual father or mother to actually say, wow, you're ready.

Let's send you out.

Change the world for the glory of God.

Wow.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Very good.

Okay.

Question, we have a question.

Sure.

Apparently is A pastor.

His question is, my community has a mix of new and mature believers.

Would Destiny Finder be suitable for the new believers?

Absolutely.

See, I believe that in our current generation, discipleship can't take place without motivation.

Okay?

Motivation is the fuel of the engine that kind of keeps us going.

I believe that ultimately motivation in our.

In our current culture cannot depend on duty alone.

Oh, you gave your life to Christ.

He died for you.

You need to die for him now you need to live for him.

Well, we.

We say all those things, but ultimately, duty is an insufficient motivator in our generation.

If you think about, let's say from Gen X to millennial to Gen Z, it's been decreasing.

You go back to World War II.

I mean, people would literally commit suicide if they couldn't go to battle.

Battle and fight for our country or fight for your country.

You know, it's like duty was such a strong motivator in the builder generation, but it's become increasingly lost.

What are the motivators?

Well, there's a book by a guy named Daniel Pink who wrote a book called Drive, and that book is.

It identified a study that was done through Carnegie Mellon and mit, I believe it was, that these two.

These two universities got together and they identified, actually through a ton of surveys, three things that motivate people highly.

And the first one is mastery.

People want to be excellent at whatever they've chosen to give their lives to, okay?

And we can develop them to that excellent.

We can bring them into mastery because they serve the master of the universe, okay?

The second thing is that people want a degree of autonomy, that they want to be able to have some freedom to make mistakes and to move forward and to discover and fulfill on their own.

These are the three things.

Things.

Mastery, autonomy.

And then the next one, the final one in this, you know, hierarchy of.

Of.

Of motivational bases is the issue of significance.

People need to know that they matter, that they're not accidental, that they're not some, you know, ecclesiastic.

Ecclesiastes, you know, hopeless version of, you know, vanity, Vanity.

All is vanity.

No, they need to know that their pain has a purpose.

And you have the ability to bring people into that.

That.

That is crucial.

And you can touch somebody at the very youngest age in their faith and begin to open up this door for them.

But you have to remember that there is going to be a process.

And one of the biggest mistakes when some people teach destiny is, oh, you have a job.

You're a middle manager in the.

In the marketplace.

Well, you're a marketplace apostle.

Well, go for it.

Yeah, but I've never developed them.

They've never been trained in the, in the soft skills of the kingdom to actually bring the kingdom into that world.

We just sort of laid hands on them and commissioned them, sent them out, but we didn't do a good job of fathering them.

It's like giving a three year old the keys to the car.

Okay.

You just don't want to do that.

Okay.

You don't want to even do it with your 16 year old usually.

You want to make sure that they've gone through a lot of training before they got the keys and they're driving alone.

Okay.

So I, again, I just encourage you that it's a combination of factors.

But, but yes, you can deal with young believers.

Okay.

The saddest thing, I think, is to deal with a believer pastor.

I'm speaking to you still who's been in Your church for 30 years or they've been in the Lord for 30 years and they've never actually done something significant for the kingdom.

Them.

Yeah, that's the greatest tragedy, is that they were never developed and discipled effectively so they could turn around and really be the world changer that God's called them to be.

And that's what we want to do is.

So we're reawakening the older believers to their calling in Christ.

They may have missed or they may have gotten disappointed.

They may have hit a brick wall and fallen down and just like never got up.

Up.

Well, we want to help them get up and fulfill.

Think about this story.

Think about the story of Elijah after the great victory on Mount Carmel where he defeated all the prophets of baal.

He saw the cloud the size of a man's hand.

He ran in the strength of the Lord.

Do you know where he ran to?

He ran to Mount Horeb, the very mountain on which Moses received the Ten Commandments.

And he hid in a cave.

And the Lord spoke to him in that cave and said, what are you doing here?

And I don't believe he was speaking to him geographically.

I think he was speaking to him in terms of the attitude of his heart.

And many of our churches are filled with people, believers, 30, 40 years, but they've never accomplished their destiny.

And they're just dragging themselves.

They're just disappointed.

They're broken.

Well, I.

I've served you, Lord, and.

And now they're trying to kill me.

And you know, Jezebel's after me and.

And so he calls him out, he shows him the Fire and the earthquake and the, and the wind blowing.

And then he says, what are you doing here?

And you know, God's cure for Elijah, in his place of depression, in his place of despondency, God's cure for him was to command him to go and raise up Elisha and to raise up Haziel and to raise up Jehu.

See, God commanded him to disciple others.

And again, you know the story.

It's a little bit more complex than just hazy.

Oh, was an evil king.

Okay, so there's a lot of complexity that would need to be broken down to teach it adequately.

But let me just say that God's cure for Elijah's depression was to send him out to raise up the next generation and develop them into the world changer.

And guess what?

Elisha did double the miracles.

He got a double portion of Elijah's blessing.

I want to encourage you to raise up the pat the older people in your church to really be the disciple makers of the younger.

And I believe you're going to see a transformation in your church.

Wow, that's powerful.

So what you just said there about raising up the older to or releasing them to develop the younger, wow, that is something that I believe in wholeheartedly.

It's scriptural.

Obviously, the older teach the younger and so on.

We see it modeled, as you said, but very rarely is that happening.

You know, I had a conversation this week just we're really focusing on discipleship.

And a lady who I think she'd be in her late 70s, came to me and she said, wow, I'm so excited.

We actually, discipleship is so important to me.

Said there's a group of other ladies around her age.

She said, we're so hungry for the word of God and discipleship because many of us came out of backgrounds where we really didn't know the Lord.

Maybe a religious background was more tradition.

And she said, we need this foundation in our lives at that age and very excited about that.

So powerful now.

And then in tandem with that, I just read an article last night actually about a church that has grown from.

There's a church plant and I think in 14 months had gone to about 700 people.

And the average age is 25.

The average age is 25.

What the pastor has been focusing on, Michael, is community versus content.

In other words, not just a great experience.

Great kids ministry, amazing worship, powerful teaching that's relevant, but that's been secondary, that's taken a back seat to community.

And he's finding that obviously with the, the, the generations that are wanting this.

That community is so important, but not just like hanging out, but there's a place of spiritual fathers and mothers really being mentored, developed, and valued.

So.

So good.

Yeah.

Would love for you just take a moment and just kind of speak into that, because I think that's a reality where we're at today.

There's some who are, you know, our generation or maybe even younger, who we've been focused on amazing content and they experience the weekend.

But, yeah, let's talk more about that, please.

Well, I have a.

I have actually a booklet that is an ebook.

Ebook format that I can let you use to send out to your constituents there, Glenn, that you can do through Kingdom TV called Doing Church as Family.

And it's absolutely essential that we get this right because ultimately community is the key.

But community by itself can actually produce a problem.

I don't know if you ever heard this phrase.

I don't think I came up with it, but others have.

I've heard it from others.

Is that when there is no vision and community gathers, when vision comes, it usually produces division.

Okay?

In other words, community can never be a goal in itself, Right?

Because it'll end up actually turning inward and becoming what.

What John Wimber used to call a primary group.

Okay?

There's a phrase that's been going around the body of Christ for the last 10 years or so called missional community.

And that's the perfect wedding of a sense of mission, a sense of vision that brings us all together.

But community is where it really happens.

Okay?

And so if community is forming around a sense of mission.

Together, together, missional community, that's really where I believe the best wedding of that sense of the need for one another and the need for significance and purpose come together.

Okay, but let me say this, and I know we're hitting the end of our.

Our hour, but let me just say that I believe that when you think about mission, you can say, oh, well, our mission is to care for the orphans.

Our mission is to end sex trafficking.

Our mission is to plant churches.

Our mission is to.

In other words, there's a number of missions that are super important to the body of Christ.

To feed the poor, to share the gospel, to do street evangelism.

All these things are so good and so important.

But our primary mission in relationship to all those secondary missions, our primary mission is the Great Commission.

Make disciples who make disciples who make disciples who make disciples until the earth is filled with the knowledge of the glory of God.

God as the waters cover the sea.

This is the Purposes of God.

How do we accomplish that primary mission in the same context as doing all that?

Jesus commanded us to serve the poor, to have great community and fellowship with one another.

All the different aspects can come together under that primary purpose.

Go into all the world and make disciples.

Yeah, yeah.

And 100.

So we understand in theological terminology we have Christology, Jesus is the, the one.

It's all about him, obviously.

Yes.

And then there is community, ecclesiology, but there's also missiology.

And I love what you said.

Community.

Missional community is the answer.

And it's.

Whose mission is it?

Well, it's obviously the King's mission.

And so, so that's so important.

That's so critical.

And, and I agree with that.

It's not just about having a great family, people hanging out, talking, drinking coffee, whatever.

There has to be that work of obviously discipleship and being transformed to go on mission, to live a life of mission.

So important.

So we have one question here.

Sure.

I believe, I believe I know what Kane is asking.

He's saying, do you think it's dangerous to come from a self motivational space rather than a kingdom focus space when trying to reach people to go into their destiny?

So I.

Do you understand what he's saying?

Definitely dangerous.

Okay.

But it's very biblical.

Okay.

Let me just cite this one fact that we found.

There was a guy who wrote a thing called the Book of James Jabez.

Probably everybody in the world read it.

Okay.

Before he did that, he, he was actually leading a ministry.

His name's Wilkinson.

He led a ministry called Walk through the Bible.

And at one point he did an assessment of every single command in the Old Testament to see what God's motivational basis was.

And it's like, I can't remember the exact statistic, but I think it was like 83% of God's commands in the scripture had a promise of blessing attached to it.

Wow.

Okay, wait a minute.

How could God motivate people according to blessing?

Well, that's, you know, but yes.

And then the two other motivators, the next one was fear.

If you don't do this, I'll do this to you.

God says, okay.

The third one was love.

Okay, if you love me, you'll do this.

Okay.

Three motivators.

Okay.

And then he asked a trick question.

He said, well, what do you think it was in the New Testament?

And everybody said, oh, the primary motivator in the New Testament is love.

Because we love him.

We do his commandments.

You know, actually he said, it's exactly the same percentages.

Sure.

Give and it shall be given unto you.

Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, shall men give into your bosom.

In other words, that God motivates through reward, reward based motivation.

In fact, think about this.

It says, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, faith who for the joy set before him endured the cross, despising the shame.

Would Jesus have gone to the cross just out of sure obedience?

Absolutely.

He would have.

But that's not what the scripture says.

It says for the joy set before him.

So yes, it is dangerous.

Yes.

You can exaggerate or you can kind of fire the flame of somebody's selfishness through reward based motivation.

Okay.

And so you have to be careful as a leader to always temper that, to always make sure that people are, are finding the right motivation.

Okay?

But destiny, fulfillment and fruitfulness.

There's three things that come out of a fulfilled destiny.

Fruitfulness, faithfulness, and fulfillment.

But you're sustained over your life because you have a joy set before you that causes you to endure the cross.

Okay.

God motivates through reward.

You can say, well, that's selfish.

No.

Yeah, it is.

But guess what?

God's gonna work with you enough.

He's gonna chastise you enough.

He's gonna spank you enough.

He's gonna, he's gonna work with you enough to root out any selfishness along the journey.

Okay.

But ultimately God designed human beings to be reward motivated in the majority.

Yeah.

So good.

Yeah.

Great.

Thank you.

Kane says thank you.

Wow.

Awesome.

One final question.

Okay.

Again.

Sure.

This is a pastor.

Can the Destiny finder be done in a full day workshop or is it best done over eight weekly sessions?

Yes, it can be done in a full one day workshop.

I've done dozens and dozens of these around the world.

And, and so yeah, you can easily do it.

You know, I, I mean the, the preferred sequence, if you're going to do it in one day is a Friday night and then like five sessions on the Saturday and then finish up with a Sunday morning kind of wrap it up.

Yeah, but there's something also about taking the time and having the time within each session to be able to have table talk and people processing.

So yes, it can be done.

And I've done just literally, you know, many dozens of, of destiny workshops.

But then I've also done the, the, the over a period of time, I'd say it's six to one, half a dozen.

The other, there's, you know, if you do it over a period of time, you have to kind of keep refreshing people.

But you can also work with them where they're going through the journey guide online each step of the way, and it becomes more of an iterative process in their hearts.

So both are good.

Usually if I'm going to do a one day, I'll have them go through the journey guide before we actually ever meet so that they're.

They're already prepped.

And then I'll use the teaching time to do mostly processing and not so much the teaching.

Okay.

I'll still do some teaching every session, but probably 20 to 30 minutes.

And then we do a lot of testimony time, a lot of working with people.

I'll bring people up and we'll coach them in front of everybody so they actually get the experience of processing the material in a coaching situation.

So, yeah, anyway, very good.

Bless you guys.

Thank you.

Yeah, so good.

Well, hey guys, everyone, whether you're watching this live session right now or you are viewing this, the replay video or on our podcast, please head over to kingdomcommunity tv.

You can watch this amazing interview, but let's just pitch destinyfinder.com right now.

Destinyfinder.com Kingdom TV if you're interested in signing up for this transformational journey process that's going to impact your own life as well as those that you serve and lead.

Guys, we have an incredible offer for you.

Just head over there@destinyfinder.com KingdomTV and not trying to sell anything at all, but believe in this.

It's such a critical thing and there's so much wisdom that you shared, Michael.

We really appreciate it, honestly.

Our community is going to be doing this and I know that it's going to have a great impact on many people's lives.

So thank you for being our guest today.

Is there any closing comments you'd like to share with our viewers?

Just I want to encourage you that it's all about Jesus.

It's all about the Lamb who was slain receiving the reward of his sufferings.

And that's not just hell being plundered and heaven being populated.

The reward of his suffering is every single person walking in the fullness of who Jesus made them to be.

That's really the great reward.

That's the joy set before him, his sons and daughters operating in the fullness of their priesthood in Christ so that ultimately the world will know, and not just the world also.

I mean, Ephesians 3:10 is so powerful that unto principalities and powers might be made known by the church.

Church, the manifold wisdom of God.

It's like we are his display, you know, we are the display of his beauty, of his glory, of his goodness.

And so, as we help people step into their destiny, Jesus is glorified and the Lamb that was slain receives the reward of his suffering.

Yeah.

So good.

Yeah.

Amen.

Thank you.

And just in closing, I just want to say to those who are watching, those who are listening, please, if you're looking for more equipping, more resources, head over to kingdom reformation.org sign up.

We have a 25amonth subscription if you purchase a year.

Right now, it's only $175.

And you're going to get access to a monthly zoom meeting.

It's not just a video, it's not like a live stream on Facebook.

This is a zoom meeting with other leaders.

And we have amazing fivefold leaders that are going to be part of this from around the world.

And there's so much more that's available to you.

Podcasts, notes, assessments, on and on.

And it's a great opportunity.

So again, kingdom reformation.org just head over there and subscribe.

And I know you'll be greatly pleased with what's being offered.

Thanks everyone for watching.

We'll see you next time on the Kingdom Community Show.

My name is Glenn Blakeney and my guest has been Michael Broger of Destiny Finder.

God bless.