Tanner Weyland:

Hello, this is Tanner Weyland. Welcome back to How to be a Better DM, the official podcast of Monsters.Rent. I'm here with Justin Lewis. Say hi, Justin.

Justin:

Justin.

Tanner Weyland:

Hey, hey, no, don't do that. Just kidding, I'm joking.

Justin:

I'm sorry.

Tanner Weyland:

It's great to have you. Ha ha ha.

Justin:

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Tanner Weyland:

Perfect. So if anyone's new to the podcast, we are going to learn a bit about how to bring our DMing and storytelling to the next level. And today's podcast is kind of a thought experiment. Why don't we see more marriage and families happening, you know, with your players characters? Like, why aren't they starting their own little families and having little kids that they name and train and everything else, right? That's kind of the thought experiment, and finding out if, as DMs, we can do this and make it an enriching and enhancing part of an adventure. First off, Justin, what do you think about this topic?

Justin:

I think it is an amazing topic. First of all, for those of you who don't know, I'm actually expecting my first child as this podcast releases. My wife's due date is August 4th, so it's like two, a week and a half away. So thinking about families is definitely the top of mind. And so I've been thinking of different book ideas that can involve having a baby or just all sorts of. fun ideas and I think and actually on a different side note my own campaign my players have gotten pretty good like they're pretty high level and it's hard for me to throw a balanced challenge at them without killing them and so I was thinking you know what maybe I'll just give them like a baby and they'll just have to deal with that you know

Tanner Weyland:

Just do a little bit of just giving them responsibility, a cold

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Tanner Weyland:

hard slice of responsibility and see how they deal with it.

Justin:

Exactly. I mean, the unfortunate part of doing that would be is how they treat NPCs thus far is not generally good. So I'm kind of

Tanner Weyland:

No.

Justin:

afraid, you know.

Tanner Weyland:

Well, that's perfect. I mean, in a way that kind of speaks to one of the opportunities of, uh, of making, you know, player relationships actually lead to kind of emotional attachment that speaks to it, right? Cause it's like, you can tell different stories if the players feel emotionally connected, because I think a lot of really great characters, players will try and do that naturally, you know, they'll try and be like, oh, let's find the emotional connection. that would make my character actually want to go save this town or save this little girl who got kidnapped or something, right? But not all players are like that, right? And so kind of giving them that natural connection of like, hey, it's your wife, it's your fiancee, it's the girl in the town who you've been spending more time with or your child. I think that that's just a very natural way to get player buy-in. if that makes sense.

Justin:

Yeah, and I think that can also be a reason why Dungeon Masters might avoid the family just because it might not feel earned, you know?

Tanner Weyland:

Mmm.

Justin:

Or you're trying to establish some sort of family relationship with a character, or sorry, not a character, with a player that generally doesn't do much role playing. And I mean, if you do that, there's a big chance that they'll be like, oh hey brother, okay bye, right. not a big payoff.

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that kind of leads naturally into what I want to talk about next, which is like, why don't we see this more often? You know? Uh, and, and I think it's worth talking about from the player perspective and the DM perspective. Uh, for DMs, I think there's a few reasons, you know, frankly, I think that sometimes the subject matter might be awkward, you know, because in order to create a relationship, you have to have flirting. and or dating and you know and some people are just uh maybe don't want to touch that because that's not something they're super confident with uh personally or they don't want to role play flirting as an npc with a player because that can be a little uncomfortable too right especially if that player or the dm you know because it's dm's gonna be like this too especially if they want to like talk about like some of the nitty gritty with like sex or anything like that then it's like oh you're gonna you know makes quite a few people at the table uh uncomfortable honestly you know

Justin:

Absolutely. Honestly, this kind of goes a little bit into... Well, it touches on a topic that is connected to an episode I'm writing currently for later that deals with death, right? And allowing

Tanner Weyland:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

death in your game. And really as a DM, you need to understand and to understand you have to ask your players what they're okay with, right? You know... my personal group and to be honest myself, I tend to shy away from some of the more PG-13 R rated aspects of playing D&D that could be in there, right? Just that's my natural personality, but even if it wasn't, I know that my group, that's generally how they would trend as well, right? We would prefer to stay away from some of the more scandalous types of encounters you could have in D&D. But. if you don't ask your players you won't know right?

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah, exactly. And I think that I think communication with players is key because kind of jumping over to their perspective, I think that some players don't feel like they've got the metaphorical nod from the DM to be like, hey, you can pursue like some type of more relationship, a deeper relationship with this PC, because you're trying to flesh out your character, you can pursue that and I'm actually going to yes and what you're doing. You know, instead of being like, oh, I'm going to have this NPC not really show that much interest or there's always going to be like an invisible wall of like, hey, what are you wasting your time here with? Let's get back to adventuring. You know? And I think that if you have that kind of. understanding and you also do a little bit of push and pull with them role playing wise, then they'll feel more comfortable actually trying that and that might be a hurdle that they're willing to get over.

Justin:

Absolutely, and honestly I think that should actually be some sort of a you know an exercise that we as dungeon masters Kind of take upon ourselves because I know for me personally when a Character tries to flirt with another NPC or something like that I might get uncomfortable or I might make it kind of comical and pretty quick, right? but like you just said taking it as a yes-and moment and Using it to spice up the plot, right? And actually one of the other points we were gonna bring up was, you know, when that happens, it could be a form of splitting the party, maybe spending too much time on one person. But you know, using it as an exercise, you might be able to think of ways to kind of incorporate this NPC a little bit more. Maybe

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah.

Justin:

they decide to flirt with someone else, kind of creating a love triangle in the party, or they're doing it on purpose, trying to split the party, right? And they become kind of a more deviant aspect. uh... or you just find ways to incorporate other people in their own kind of side quests for love i guess you can say or relationships is a better way to say it

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah, totally. You know, and I like that idea of making it a multi character thing because I feel like that's another issue here is that if one person is like, not obsessing, but like really focused on like, hey, I saw this barmaid and I'm gonna you know, every evening, gonna go talk with her. Then that's a time sink, you know, and it's almost like You know, I think DMs already worry about one player kind of hogging the spotlight, you know, and if one player has this kind of side relationship that's solely about them. where they want these long conversations back and forth, then it's gonna get boring for the other players. It's gonna feel like it's not worth it for them and they're gonna get annoyed, you're gonna get annoyed that you're spending that time. And so I think that that's something that DMs and you'd be very cognizant of, right?

Justin:

Yeah. And I think, you know, we'll, we'll talk about a little bit of kind of some things you should and shouldn't do. And we'll definitely need to talk on this aspect of, uh, you know, if it is going to be a time sync, what are some things you can do to maybe mitigate that? But before we move on to, to some of our other points, one

Tanner Weyland:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

last reason why I think, you know, we don't often see this and, um, both from a player. perspective and a DM perspective, I think is because, at least in the US, we're conditioned to, you know, they get married and they live happily ever after, end of story, right? Like that's the end

Tanner Weyland:

Yep.

Justin:

of story, which if you've ever been married or started a relationship, right, marriage is the beginning of like a big adventure, right? And

Tanner Weyland:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

I think we need to recognize that we have that condition, right, in our brains. and recognize also that it's kind of hampering some of our creativity, because we're naturally prone to thinking you get a family and you settle down, right? But even in this modern day and age, we should get used to the fact that, you know, a lot of people work remote, so you can technically have your family on the road, and why should D&D be any different, right?

Tanner Weyland:

Absolutely, you know, because I think that some people worry that, oh hey, my type of adventure doesn't fit. And it's true for some of them, right? If you have a campaign or a mini campaign that's a dungeon crawl, it's like, yeah, having, you know, maybe your players could be related to each other, but, well, the player characters, but you're not likely going to have, you know, NPCs in that position. But if it was an expedition or like, or one where you have like a town hub where you're doing adventures from, that's such a perfect opportunity. right especially and we're going to talk about we're going to have an episode soon about you know how to do an expedition campaign, but in a setting like that, it's perfect because it's like, hey, you can have multiple NPCs on that, you know, in the wagon train, on the boat, whatever it is. And that's a great opportunity also for, you know, interacting with the same NPCs over and over again, and them really building a bond there. And I think you shouldn't shy away from that. I know it's easy to just focus on building the bond between, you know, players, characters. that's wonderful. We all want a metaphorical fellowship of the ring, right? Where everyone's like, oh, they're so tight, right? But

Justin:

Yeah.

Tanner Weyland:

it's like, hey, but you can also have other kinds of relationships to just kind of flesh out the relationship meter, if you will, with your player characters. And that's just going to make the story better in general.

Justin:

Absolutely. You know, I think when we say having a Dungeons and Dragons family, right, a family in your D&D campaign, we all too often, and we've even been talking like this, we all too often think about lover, right, wife, husband, child. But I think it'd be interesting to, you know, throw in some dynamics like uncle, grandma, godfather, you know,

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah,

Justin:

some of those

Tanner Weyland:

brother, sister,

Justin:

brother, right,

Tanner Weyland:

right? Mm-hmm.

Justin:

cousin, you know, because those... those bring sort of a small distance with them, but they can also bring somewhat of a familiarity, right? And I think that would be

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah.

Justin:

a very interesting aspect to add to your story.

Tanner Weyland:

Totally, right? And I think that it's worth talking about, how can you actually implement this well? Because I think it's something that we should all try. It gets us out of our comfort zone, but I think it adds so much more reality to the stakes in the world and also the connection. So first off, what I wouldn't recommend that you do when you're trying to get your players to have these kind of family ties. let's keep in mind that you can have a lot of relationships, like Justin was saying, like in family, but then you can also have friend relationships, right? Like when was the time that the paladin in your party met? another paladin in the city and they went out for drinks and then they also you know went out uh to go you know sword like practice sword fighting together you know things like that can also add depth and an emotional connection that if that you know friend npc got like taken away or hurt suddenly you have like reason you know you have an M.O. to like pursue the bad guy who

Justin:

Absolutely and a couple words of warning with this You won't always plan correctly like sometimes your players will just randomly develop Relationships with NPCs you never planned and ones you did plan they won't care but also as the DM You will likely need to be vulnerable yourself, right?

Tanner Weyland:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

And what do I mean by that? I mean, when you're out having drinks with the paladin, right? The player is going to role play, or ideally they are, right? It's going to be somewhat

Tanner Weyland:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

hard for them to kind of develop those positive emotions that they don't, but they're going to role play, and so will you. And because of that, you will likely need to sort of immerse yourself in these emotions, right? And it's possible that you will have to kind of be vulnerable as the character, which will make you vulnerable as a person, right? It's kind of hard to explain, but you're acting essentially, but in order to act, you sort of have to replicate those emotions in yourself.

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah, exactly. And as a DM, you know, we have, we're the ones that like the players have to do that for themselves. We have to do everyone else. And that's a big responsibility. But I think it's possible if you just let the character be interested in the in the player. like whatever that means, whether it's romantic or friendship or just interest in general, that kind of it becomes a bridge that can then lead to something else. Because oftentimes I've seen this where, you know, you do kind of develop a little bit of like, oh, a little tryst or something, or a friendship, and then it doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't affect the adventure. It doesn't, you know, become a decision point. Or something that the player actually feels like they need to spend real time on and then that becomes essentially a trophy relationship one that you just set on the you know on the mantle and you don't really look at and that kind of leads to players not feeling like they've Like the DMs willing to tango with them in terms of actually developing real relationships, you know

Justin:

Yeah, I 100% agree. I think one way, well, one way to avoid that maybe, and kind of going on the lines of things you shouldn't do, don't make the NPCs that they're trying to have relationships with one-sided or static characters. Make them dynamic with their own desires, right? So maybe they do the Paladins have drinks together. at some point they find something that they disagree over and that's going to provide an interesting point in the story because hopefully they've built up a friendship, they have this disagreement and they kind of have to learn how to navigate it, right? Or you know, this paladin has desires and he calls upon the player character for help, you know? Just, just, they should feel somewhat real, right?

Tanner Weyland:

Exactly, you know, and I think that that's such an important point there because that as a DM that could be a wonderful Catalyst for like showing a play that like hey you can develop Kind of like a video game how, you know, some RPGs will have like specific partner characters, either for friendship or romance. And you can kind of tell because they'll have different kinds of options. One thing that you could do in terms of like making up is, you know, have an NPC who has a similarity. And then after they've had some time to kind of develop that relationship, then have, like you said, that opposing view that maybe there's a little bit of a falling out or an argument. And then the next time that they see each other, you know... which you should encourage, then if the player doesn't come up to them and do something, then your NPC, you should make them go up to the player and be like, hey, I'm sorry about that, I got heated, you know, then they can share some about themselves. And then it can be a great opportunity to be like, hey, do you want to take this relationship like kind of further or be friends still or and so it's almost like a one to punch where it's like introduce them as a friend who shares interests. have a conflict, make up, and then that's almost like a good indicator to the player, hey, this can be more than just an NPC who gives you directions for the cave down the road, right?

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. I think what you're talking about is, it could be termed as like reciprocity. And that's

Tanner Weyland:

Yes.

Justin:

not a great term for it, but like, oftentimes I think, at least in my own campaigns thinking back, the problems that I've had when I've tried to create these relationships for my characters, but they've turned out to be trophy relationships is because I haven't showed interest from my characters, from my NPCs to the PCs. Right? Or interest or like I said, reciprocity. So to the PCs, it's like, oh, I wanted to talk to this person. They didn't seem like they wanted to talk to me or we did talk, but then they haven't reached back out. They're not worth my time because it was one sided, right?

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah, exactly. And I think if you are able to give that back and forth with the player, then they're gonna they're gonna pick up on it, hopefully. And if they don't teach them, you know, with time.

Justin:

Exactly.

Tanner Weyland:

I think but like kind of what's the what's the end goal? For me, I feel like the end goal of any kind of relationship that the players build in world. The end goal is that it's supposed to enrich the story. And so I would, and this is the kind of evil DM in me speaking. I would totally take advantage of these relationships, you know, build them up. And then suddenly, oh my goodness, your baby just got kidnapped. Well,...

Hello, this is Tanner Weyland. Welcome back to How to be a Better DM, the

official podcast of Monsters.Rent. I'm here with Justin Lewis. Say hi, Justin.

Justin.

Hey, hey, no, don't do that. Just kidding, I'm joking.

I'm sorry.

It's great to have you. Ha ha ha.

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Perfect. So if anyone's new to the podcast, we are going to learn a bit

about how to bring our DMing and storytelling to the next level. And today's

podcast is kind of a thought experiment. Why don't we see more marriage

and families happening, you know, with your players characters? Like, why

aren't they starting their own little families and having little kids

that they name and train and everything else, right? That's kind of the

thought experiment, and finding out if, as DMs, we can do this and make it

an enriching and enhancing part of an adventure. First off, Justin, what

do you think about this topic?

I think it is an amazing topic. First of all, for those of you who don't know, I'm

actually expecting my first child as this podcast releases. My wife's due date

is August 4th, so it's like two, a week and a half away. So thinking about families

is definitely the top of mind. And so I've been thinking of different book ideas

that can involve having a baby or just all sorts of. fun ideas and I think and

actually on a different side note my own campaign my players have gotten pretty

good like they're pretty high level and it's hard for me to throw a balanced challenge

at them without killing them and so I was thinking you know what maybe I'll just

give them like a baby and they'll just have to deal with that you know

Just do a little bit of just giving them responsibility, a cold

Mm-hmm.

hard slice of responsibility and see how they deal with it.

Exactly. I mean, the unfortunate part of doing that would be is how they treat NPCs

thus far is not generally good. So I'm kind of

No.

afraid, you know.

Well, that's perfect. I mean, in a way that kind of speaks to one of the

opportunities of, uh, of making, you know, player relationships actually lead

to kind of emotional attachment that speaks to it, right? Cause it's like,

you can tell different stories if the players feel emotionally connected,

because I think a lot of really great characters, players will try and do that

naturally, you know, they'll try and be like, oh, let's find the emotional

connection. that would make my character actually want to go save this

town or save this little girl who got kidnapped or something, right? But

not all players are like that, right? And so kind of giving them that natural

connection of like, hey, it's your wife, it's your fiancee, it's the girl

in the town who you've been spending more time with or your child. I think

that that's just a very natural way to get player buy-in. if that makes sense.

Yeah, and I think that can also be a reason why Dungeon Masters might avoid the

family just because it might not feel earned, you know?

Mmm.

Or you're trying to establish some sort of family relationship with a character,

or sorry, not a character, with a player that generally doesn't do much role

playing. And I mean, if you do that, there's a big chance that they'll be like,

oh hey brother, okay bye, right. not a big payoff.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that kind of leads naturally into what I want

to talk about next, which is like, why don't we see this more often?

You know? Uh, and, and I think it's worth talking about from the player perspective

and the DM perspective. Uh, for DMs, I think there's a few reasons, you

know, frankly, I think that sometimes the subject matter might be awkward,

you know, because in order to create a relationship, you have to have

flirting. and or dating and you know and some people are just uh maybe

don't want to touch that because that's not something they're super confident

with uh personally or they don't want to role play flirting as an npc

with a player because that can be a little uncomfortable too right especially

if that player or the dm you know because it's dm's gonna be like this too

especially if they want to like talk about like some of the nitty gritty

with like sex or anything like that then it's like oh you're gonna you

know makes quite a few people at the table uh uncomfortable honestly you

know

Absolutely. Honestly, this kind of goes a little bit into... Well, it touches

on a topic that is connected to an episode I'm writing currently for later that

deals with death, right? And allowing

Mm-hmm.

death in your game. And really as a DM, you need to understand and to understand

you have to ask your players what they're okay with, right? You know... my personal

group and to be honest myself, I tend to shy away from some of the more PG-13 R rated

aspects of playing D&D that could be in there, right? Just that's my natural

personality, but even if it wasn't, I know that my group, that's generally how

they would trend as well, right? We would prefer to stay away from some of the

more scandalous types of encounters you could have in D&D. But. if you don't ask

your players you won't know right?

Yeah, exactly. And I think that I think communication with players is

key because kind of jumping over to their perspective, I think that some

players don't feel like they've got the metaphorical nod from the DM to be

like, hey, you can pursue like some type of more relationship, a deeper

relationship with this PC, because you're trying to flesh out your character,

you can pursue that and I'm actually going to yes and what you're doing.

You know, instead of being like, oh, I'm going to have this NPC not really

show that much interest or there's always going to be like an invisible

wall of like, hey, what are you wasting your time here with? Let's get

back to adventuring. You know? And I think that if you have that kind of.

understanding and you also do a little bit of push and pull with them

role playing wise, then they'll feel more comfortable actually trying that

and that might be a hurdle that they're willing to get over.

Absolutely, and honestly I think that should actually be some sort of a you know

an exercise that we as dungeon masters Kind of take upon ourselves because I know

for me personally when a Character tries to flirt with another NPC or something

like that I might get uncomfortable or I might make it kind of comical and pretty

quick, right? but like you just said taking it as a yes-and moment and Using it

to spice up the plot, right? And actually one of the other points we were gonna bring

up was, you know, when that happens, it could be a form of splitting the party,

maybe spending too much time on one person. But you know, using it as an exercise,

you might be able to think of ways to kind of incorporate this NPC a little bit

more. Maybe

Yeah.

they decide to flirt with someone else, kind of creating a love triangle in the

party, or they're doing it on purpose, trying to split the party, right? And they

become kind of a more deviant aspect. uh... or you just find ways to incorporate

other people in their own kind of side quests for love i guess you can say or

relationships is a better way to say it

Yeah, totally. You know, and I like that idea of making it a multi character

thing because I feel like that's another issue here is that if one person

is like, not obsessing, but like really focused on like, hey, I saw this

barmaid and I'm gonna you know, every evening, gonna go talk with her.

Then that's a time sink, you know, and it's almost like You know, I think

DMs already worry about one player kind of hogging the spotlight, you know,

and if one player has this kind of side relationship that's solely about

them. where they want these long conversations back and forth, then it's

gonna get boring for the other players. It's gonna feel like it's not worth

it for them and they're gonna get annoyed, you're gonna get annoyed that

you're spending that time. And so I think that that's something that DMs

and you'd be very cognizant of, right?

Yeah. And I think, you know, we'll, we'll talk about a little bit of kind of some

things you should and shouldn't do. And we'll definitely need to talk on this aspect

of, uh, you know, if it is going to be a time sync, what are some things you can

do to maybe mitigate that? But before we move on to, to some of our other points,

one

Mm-hmm.

last reason why I think, you know, we don't often see this and, um, both from

a player. perspective and a DM perspective, I think is because, at least in the US, we're

conditioned to, you know, they get married and they live happily ever after, end

of story, right? Like that's the end

Yep.

of story, which if you've ever been married or started a relationship, right, marriage

is the beginning of like a big adventure, right? And

Mm-hmm.

I think we need to recognize that we have that condition, right, in our brains.

and recognize also that it's kind of hampering some of our creativity, because

we're naturally prone to thinking you get a family and you settle down, right?

But even in this modern day and age, we should get used to the fact that, you know,

a lot of people work remote, so you can technically have your family on the road,

and why should D&D be any different, right?

Absolutely, you know, because I think that some people worry that, oh hey,

my type of adventure doesn't fit. And it's true for some of them, right?

If you have a campaign or a mini campaign that's a dungeon crawl, it's

like, yeah, having, you know, maybe your players could be related to each

other, but, well, the player characters, but you're not likely going to

have, you know, NPCs in that position. But if it was an expedition or like,

or one where you have like a town hub where you're doing adventures from,

that's such a perfect opportunity. right especially and we're going to talk about

we're going to have an episode soon about you know how to do an expedition

campaign, but in a setting like that, it's perfect because it's like,

hey, you can have multiple NPCs on that, you know, in the wagon train,

on the boat, whatever it is. And that's a great opportunity also for, you

know, interacting with the same NPCs over and over again, and them really

building a bond there. And I think you shouldn't shy away from that. I

know it's easy to just focus on building the bond between, you know, players,

characters. that's wonderful. We all want a metaphorical fellowship of the

ring, right? Where everyone's like, oh, they're so tight, right? But

Yeah.

it's like, hey, but you can also have other kinds of relationships to just

kind of flesh out the relationship meter, if you will, with your player characters.

And that's just going to make the story better in general.

Absolutely. You know, I think when we say having a Dungeons and Dragons family,

right, a family in your D&D campaign, we all too often, and we've even been talking

like this, we all too often think about lover, right, wife, husband, child. But

I think it'd be interesting to, you know, throw in some dynamics like uncle, grandma,

godfather, you know,

Yeah,

some of those

brother, sister,

brother, right,

right? Mm-hmm.

cousin, you know, because those... those bring sort of a small distance with them,

but they can also bring somewhat of a familiarity, right? And I think that would

be

Yeah.

a very interesting aspect to add to your story.

Totally, right? And I think that it's worth talking about, how can you

actually implement this well? Because I think it's something that we should

all try. It gets us out of our comfort zone, but I think it adds so much

more reality to the stakes in the world and also the connection. So first

off, what I wouldn't recommend that you do when you're trying to get your

players to have these kind of family ties.

let's keep in mind that you can have a lot of relationships, like Justin

was saying, like in family, but then you can also have friend relationships,

right? Like when was the time that the paladin in your party met? another

paladin in the city and they went out for drinks and then they also you

know went out uh to go you know sword like practice sword fighting together

you know things like that can also add depth and an emotional connection

that if that you know friend npc got like taken away or hurt suddenly you

have like reason you know you have an M.O. to like pursue the bad guy

who

Absolutely and a couple words of warning with this You won't always plan correctly like

sometimes your players will just randomly develop Relationships with NPCs you never planned

and ones you did plan they won't care but also as the DM You will likely need to

be vulnerable yourself, right?

Mm-hmm.

And what do I mean by that? I mean, when you're out having drinks with the paladin,

right? The player is going to role play, or ideally they are, right? It's going

to be somewhat

Mm-hmm.

hard for them to kind of develop those positive emotions that they don't, but they're

going to role play, and so will you. And because of that, you will likely need to

sort of immerse yourself in these emotions, right? And it's possible that you

will have to kind of be vulnerable as the character, which will make you vulnerable

as a person, right? It's kind of hard to explain, but you're acting essentially,

but in order to act, you sort of have to replicate those emotions in yourself.

Yeah, exactly. And as a DM, you know, we have, we're the ones that like

the players have to do that for themselves. We have to do everyone else.

And that's a big responsibility. But I think it's possible if you just let the

character be interested in the in the player. like whatever that means,

whether it's romantic or friendship or just interest in general, that kind of it

becomes a bridge that can then lead to something else. Because oftentimes

I've seen this where, you know, you do kind of develop a little bit of

like, oh, a little tryst or something, or a friendship, and then it doesn't

go anywhere. It doesn't affect the adventure. It doesn't, you know, become

a decision point. Or something that the player actually feels like they need

to spend real time on and then that becomes essentially a trophy relationship

one that you just set on the you know on the mantle and you don't really

look at and that kind of leads to players not feeling like they've Like the

DMs willing to tango with them in terms of actually developing real relationships,

you know

Yeah, I 100% agree. I think one way, well, one way to avoid that maybe, and kind

of going on the lines of things you shouldn't do, don't make the NPCs that they're

trying to have relationships with one-sided or static characters. Make them dynamic

with their own desires, right? So maybe they do the Paladins have drinks together.

at some point they find something that they disagree over and that's going to

provide an interesting point in the story because hopefully they've built up a

friendship, they have this disagreement and they kind of have to learn how to navigate

it, right? Or you know, this paladin has desires and he calls upon the player character

for help, you know? Just, just, they should feel somewhat real, right?

Exactly, you know, and I think that that's such an important point there because

that as a DM that could be a wonderful Catalyst for like showing a play

that like hey you can develop Kind of like a video game how, you know, some

RPGs will have like specific partner characters, either for friendship or

romance. And you can kind of tell because they'll have different kinds

of options. One thing that you could do in terms of like making up is,

you know, have an NPC who has a similarity. And then after they've had

some time to kind of develop that relationship, then have, like you said,

that opposing view that maybe there's a little bit of a falling out or an

argument. And then the next time that they see each other, you know...

which you should encourage, then if the player doesn't come up to them

and do something, then your NPC, you should make them go up to the player

and be like, hey, I'm sorry about that, I got heated, you know, then they

can share some about themselves. And then it can be a great opportunity to be

like, hey, do you want to take this relationship like kind of further

or be friends still or and so it's almost like a one to punch where it's

like introduce them as a friend who shares interests. have a conflict, make

up, and then that's almost like a good indicator to the player, hey, this

can be more than just an NPC who gives you directions for the cave down

the road, right?

Yeah, exactly. I think what you're talking about is, it could be termed as like

reciprocity. And that's

Yes.

not a great term for it, but like, oftentimes I think, at least in my own campaigns

thinking back, the problems that I've had when I've tried to create these relationships

for my characters, but they've turned out to be trophy relationships is because I

haven't showed interest from my characters, from my NPCs to the PCs. Right? Or interest

or like I said, reciprocity. So to the PCs, it's like, oh, I wanted to talk to

this person. They didn't seem like they wanted to talk to me or we did talk, but

then they haven't reached back out. They're not worth my time because it was one

sided, right?

Yeah, exactly. And I think if you are able to give that back and forth

with the player, then they're gonna they're gonna pick up on it, hopefully.

And if they don't teach them, you know, with time.

Exactly.

I think but like kind of what's the what's the end goal? For me, I feel like

the end goal of any kind of relationship that the players build in world.

The end goal is that it's supposed to enrich the story. And so I would,

and this is the kind of evil DM in me speaking. I would totally take advantage

of these relationships, you know, build them up. And then suddenly, oh

my goodness, your baby just got kidnapped. Well, that's crazy. Ooh, guess

you better do something about that. You know, I think there's so many things

that you can do that, you know, make give an urgency. And also real stakes

which guess what you can occasionally like oh the players are chasing after The person

who took their cousin and guess what the cousin dies Then it's like guess

what your player has real, you know stakes and real like they want Vengeance

for what happened and I think that's only a win, right?

Absolutely. I will say with this, definitely be careful and know your players,

because it's one thing to kidnap a cousin. It's another thing to, well, it's one

thing to kidnap the cousin and have the cousin die, right?

Yeah.

But it's an entirely different thing to kidnap a baby and have the baby die, right?

Exactly.

You know, and you kind of have to gauge what your players will tolerate, but

also... what sort of maliciousness is in the villains. Because if the villain

knows that they have a baby, you know, depending on the villain, they'd go after the

baby over to the cousin all day, right?

Yeah.

So you definitely need to be careful with how you craft the story. Because

Exactly.

that could be a triggering event. The last thing I would also say is, kinda like

you said with. having like a town hub or something where the family stays. If

there is family, and I mean like immediate family, as a DM, it's probably helpful to know

where they are at basically

Mm-hmm.

all times. And the more important they are, the more important the ability to

see them often will be. So just add those methods into your campaign, whether it's

teleportation. or whether the fact that the family comes with the party or something

i don't know

Absolutely, you know, if you don't facilitate it, then it's going to go

by the wayside and all that character work that you did, it kind of wasted,

right? So I think that that's such great advice. Yeah, and just to end here,

I really liked your final advice. For me, I would just say... that you

need to try and find an opportunity. And you're gonna make a lot of mistakes with

this. You know, you're going to not telegraph correctly that like, hey,

this is an NPC that you can do more with. you're maybe not going to be

able to telegraph that well at the start. And even if you do, maybe you

don't utilize that relationship super well. If you start now, then you're going

to get better. And that's the key because building up these relationships

like, or the skill as a DM to kind of build connections between player

characters and NPCs, you got to start now because it's not easy.

Absolutely, absolutely. I can't say anything other than that. Well, I guess I can't

say one thing. Just reiterating, I challenge you, the listener, to try this. Try

and add more family relationships into your sessions just to spice it up.

Yeah, and you know, thank you again Justin for talking about this with

me. I always appreciate what you bring to the table

Well, thank you, Tanner. I think you have really, really good ideas for episodes.

Yeah, I

And.

do. Hot dog. Thanks, Justin.

Yeah.

Okay, and listener, thank you again for hearing us talk about this subject

that maybe we care a little bit too much about. Not sure, but either way,

we're happy you're here. And until next time, let's roll initiative.