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Young Professional Success in Corporate Security | Leo Kelly
Episode 4218th November 2022 • The Circuit Magazine Podcast • BBA Corporate Ltd
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What are the challenges facing young professionals in corporate security right now?

That's the question we're putting to this weeks guest and young professional, Leo Kelly.

Like the rest of us, the current generation of young professionals are trying to establish themselves in a competitive industry and just want the opportunity to shine and show what they can do.

But are you ready to entrust the inner workings of your security operation to a Gen Z or Millennial? And, rather than micromanage or utilise as a kind of work experience candidate, are the current crop of security managers ready to give responsibility and handover accountability of their projects to enthusiastic, yet inexperienced young professionals?

More about the Circuit:

The Circuit Magazine is written and produced by volunteers, most of who are operationally active, working full time in the security industry. The magazine is a product of their combined passion and desire to give something back to the industry. By subscribing to the magazine you are helping to keep it going into the future. Find out more >

If you liked this podcast, we have an accompanying weekly newsletter called 'On the Circuit' where we take a deeper dive into the wider industry. Opt in here >

The Circuit team is:

  • Elijah Shaw
  • Jon Moss
  • Shaun West
  • Phelim Rowe

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Transcripts

Leo Kelly:

it's about giving the next generation the right confidence

Leo Kelly:

and leadership skills and drive to, to achieve what, the top leaders

Leo Kelly:

in the security industry have done and what they're continuing to do.

Phelim Rowe:

Young, professional success in corporate security.

Phelim Rowe:

To date, John Moss and myself are delighted

Phelim Rowe:

to be interviewing Leo Kelly, who as a young, professional next generation.

Phelim Rowe:

In the London scene has recently taken a career break to reassess things.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, John, we were all

Phelim Rowe:

young once, and arguably we still are young.

Phelim Rowe:

Why are we doing a session on YPs today?

Jon Moss:

Well, the biggest aim and goal for me in this is not

Jon Moss:

to feel old and like a dinosaur.

Jon Moss:

Assuming I can get through that.

Jon Moss:

Okay.

Jon Moss:

Then I, I think it's really essential that

Jon Moss:

we keep

Jon Moss:

touch with, the young professionals

Jon Moss:

who are coming into the industry.

Jon Moss:

We have to accept, you know, they're

Jon Moss:

a different generation.

Jon Moss:

There's, uh, different things that have influenced them to come into the industry.

Jon Moss:

Different drivers, and, they have different needs to some part as well.

Jon Moss:

And so this is the future of the security industry and.

Jon Moss:

It's not like passing the button on, and we retire and they take over.

Jon Moss:

There is a natural transition and integration and we will be working

Jon Moss:

alongside, these young professionals.

Jon Moss:

And so it's just as important for us to understand them, them,

Jon Moss:

and make ourselves accessible to ensure the success of the mission

Jon Moss:

and the industry in the long.

Phelim Rowe:

Absolutely, cuz there's, there's always gonna be some sort

Phelim Rowe:

of stereotypes or prejudices.

Phelim Rowe:

Oh, young people are dot, dot, do.

Phelim Rowe:

And just as people say, oh, older people are dot, dot, dot, and, and

Phelim Rowe:

today, you know, people talking about the great resignation, we we're talking

Phelim Rowe:

about Gen Z in a particular different way than, uh, maybe millennials.

Phelim Rowe:

Such Gen X.

Phelim Rowe:

And I mean, it's, it's, it's always gonna be.

Phelim Rowe:

But then a security manager has to think, right, I'll rise above it.

Phelim Rowe:

How do I integrate them into my team?

Phelim Rowe:

How do I create success?

Phelim Rowe:

How do I make sure that we can get the most out of each and every, uh,

Phelim Rowe:

person, which is, you know, why, why?

Phelim Rowe:

We're very pleased to have Leo on obviously Leo, uh, very active in the

Phelim Rowe:

UK as a S asis, um, young professionals seen.

Phelim Rowe:

And actually he's come from a, a slightly different background.

Phelim Rowe:

He did a masters

Phelim Rowe:

in, uh, risk.

Phelim Rowe:

And he did not come from the police or the military, which I think

Phelim Rowe:

has been a recurring theme of some of the podcasts, hasn't it, John?

Phelim Rowe:

The, uh, non-traditional career path and, and actually

Phelim Rowe:

coming with some academic credentials first.

Phelim Rowe:

That's, that, that's more popular these days, isn't

Phelim Rowe:

it?

Jon Moss:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jon Moss:

And you spoke about, , the non-traditional, uh, but actually, I

Jon Moss:

think, it is becoming more commonplace to see this entry point into the industry.

Jon Moss:

You know, a lot of people who will be listening to this might

Jon Moss:

have come into the industry.

Jon Moss:

As a result of the big

Jon Moss:

expansion that we've seen in the last 20 years.

Jon Moss:

And, the entry point for them will be

Jon Moss:

very different, so I think it's really

Jon Moss:

interesting to have

Jon Moss:

Leo on and to hear

Jon Moss:

The experience of somebody coming into the industry

Jon Moss:

from this academic route and, choosing a career path rather than just

Jon Moss:

falling into it, that makes sense.

Phelim Rowe:

Yeah, it does.

Phelim Rowe:

It does.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and you know, Many people fall into it, many people gravitate towards it.

Phelim Rowe:

But you know, the professionalization

Phelim Rowe:

of security is a testament to people choosing it, seeking it out, um,

Phelim Rowe:

which is, which is rather nice.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and, and after all, we've talked a lot about people's eventual career paths

Phelim Rowe:

as risk managers.

Phelim Rowe:

Well, hey, masters

Phelim Rowe:

in risk management to start with, that is a good precedent.

Phelim Rowe:

Um,

Phelim Rowe:

I'm sure many people in the UK already know Leo, but it's

Phelim Rowe:

nice to introduce him and the

Phelim Rowe:

YP question to our wider

Phelim Rowe:

EP audience.

Phelim Rowe:

Let's get into it and look at corporate

Phelim Rowe:

security success as a young, professional next generation,

Phelim Rowe:

individual with Leo Kelly.

Phelim Rowe:

young professional success in corporate security today we are delighted to be

Phelim Rowe:

joined by Leo Kelly, a young professional from the corporate security scene.

Phelim Rowe:

Now on a little career break, John Moss and myself, really pleased to have you on.

Phelim Rowe:

How are you doing, Leo

Leo Kelly:

Right.

Leo Kelly:

Well, thank you.

Leo Kelly:

Thank you for having me.

Leo Kelly:

It's great to be here.

Leo Kelly:

Yeah, thank.

Phelim Rowe:

Well, well, it's great.

Phelim Rowe:

It's great for you to join, especially in the middle of your, uh, career break,

Phelim Rowe:

and I think this is a great time to get a snapshot for the older generation about

Phelim Rowe:

what the younger generation is, uh, going through is needing how to inter integrate

Phelim Rowe:

with them, how to communicate with them, but equally for the younger crowd.

Phelim Rowe:

A lot of the different voices and perspectives that corporate and executive

Phelim Rowe:

security are going through right now.

Phelim Rowe:

So what is the problem that we are trying to solve or you are trying to

Phelim Rowe:

solve with, uh, young professionals in corporate security right now?

Leo Kelly:

That's a great question.

Leo Kelly:

I think trying to avoid ageism as much as possible and giving, giving in

Leo Kelly:

professionals as as many opportunities as possible, which the security

Leo Kelly:

industry I think is good for, but more, more broadly in the world of work.

Leo Kelly:

I think lots of young professionals.

Leo Kelly:

Just appreciate the opportunity and the opportunity to shine, um,

Leo Kelly:

while they're growing their career.

Leo Kelly:

And, uh, for so many young people like myself, uh, we'd love to have a

Leo Kelly:

manager who will put us first, give us responsibility to get on with

Leo Kelly:

tasks and take ownership for these, rather than be micromanaged or kind of

Leo Kelly:

like as a work experience candidate.

Leo Kelly:

Someone who is just there in the shadows and, and makes things look pretty, but

Leo Kelly:

to be given responsibility and to take accountability for their projects,

Phelim Rowe:

Mm.

Phelim Rowe:

I think we could all appreciate that.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, cuz we've all been, we've all been there at some stage.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, and, and, and what about you?

Phelim Rowe:

Where does your passion for security, um, and, and now being a yp, uh, come from?

Leo Kelly:

I think it all comes down to protecting and helping people.

Leo Kelly:

So, Something I've been reflecting on in the last few months that I've

Leo Kelly:

had off away from the industry for a few months is if everything is going

Leo Kelly:

smoothly and everything is going well, there's no real major hiccups.

Leo Kelly:

And that's, that's the success.

Leo Kelly:

Um, and that's that sort of piece and keeping the piece is, is important to

Leo Kelly:

me and that's what the security industry does so well, uh, that reassurance and.

Leo Kelly:

And protection of, of people to help them, uh, their assets, wellbeing, et cetera.

Phelim Rowe:

Okay.

Phelim Rowe:

And then, I mean, usually I'd say, what about the uninitiated?

Phelim Rowe:

But as I sort of alluded, we were all younger ones.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, what about the, uh, older generation that may have forgotten?

Phelim Rowe:

What it is like, uh, to be, uh, younger and maybe the younger

Phelim Rowe:

generation not yet in, uh, security.

Phelim Rowe:

What, what should they better understand about this yp?

Phelim Rowe:

And I think ACEs now calls it next gen, uh, sort of Carter of colleagues.

Leo Kelly:

Sure.

Leo Kelly:

Um, I think it's, it's interesting because we're all, I think we're

Leo Kelly:

all, we're all pretty similar.

Leo Kelly:

We're all, we're all human beings here.

Leo Kelly:

The the next gen.

Leo Kelly:

I think is a, is a good way of now reframing the, the cohort of young

Leo Kelly:

professionals because it's about giving the next generation the right confidence

Leo Kelly:

and leadership skills and drive to, to achieve what, what the, the top

Leo Kelly:

leaders in the security industry have done and what they're continuing to do.

Leo Kelly:

So.

Leo Kelly:

I think at the end of the day, we're all pretty similar and the, the,

Leo Kelly:

the leadership has been in our, in the young professional shoes.

Leo Kelly:

It's just about growing that and giving them enough support to be

Leo Kelly:

able to achieve like they have.

Jon Moss:

so I, I just kind of wanna start with some really basic things to set the

Jon Moss:

scene, uh, to get a bit of a background , so first of all, I think soon as we're

Jon Moss:

talking about young professionals, it will be good to know how old you are.

Leo Kelly:

Sure.

Leo Kelly:

So I'm 26 at the moment.

Jon Moss:

So not quite still in diapers.

Jon Moss:

I

Leo Kelly:

No

Jon Moss:

you know, you have a certain amount of life experience behind you.

Jon Moss:

And so what I wanted to know was, what attracted you to the security industry?

Jon Moss:

I mean, was it a conscious decision?

Jon Moss:

Did you just find yourself in this career path?

Jon Moss:

As many of us do, I think a lot of listeners, will appreciate that even

Jon Moss:

those who were in the military, and police won't necessarily have known

Jon Moss:

that a career in the security industry is, what, lay ahead for them.

Jon Moss:

So yeah.

Jon Moss:

why were you drawn to the security industry?

Leo Kelly:

So I think it comes back to the protection of people and helping people.

Leo Kelly:

That's, that's the crux of it.

Leo Kelly:

Uh, that's the, the main satisfaction I would say from, from working in industry.

Leo Kelly:

Um, if, if I was to break it down a little bit more, uh, I did a Masters in

Leo Kelly:

risk and focused on counter-terrorism.

Leo Kelly:

And through that I developed my, my interest and my passion

Leo Kelly:

for the security industry.

Leo Kelly:

And I did a lot of research on protecting educational establishments

Leo Kelly:

from, from terrorism, and then the measures they put in.

Leo Kelly:

And that was, I said, the gateway, uh, in my master's dissertation

Leo Kelly:

maybe five years ago now as to how I, how I started in the industry and.

Leo Kelly:

And then things developed and I met a lot of amazing people who helped me out and,

Leo Kelly:

and one thing led to another and then I had, yeah, then had four, four and a bit

Leo Kelly:

amazing years so far, uh, in the industry.

Leo Kelly:

And hopefully that continues, uh, from the new year onwards.

Jon Moss:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jon Moss:

And, you know, growing up in this world, uh, in this time

Jon Moss:

with everything that's going on?

Jon Moss:

What was it that influenced that decision to take a master's in risk

Jon Moss:

management and counter-terrorism?

Leo Kelly:

Yeah, that's, that's such a great question.

Leo Kelly:

I grew up in an era where we had nine 11 when I was six, and then

Leo Kelly:

we had seven, seven attacks in London in when I was, uh, nine.

Leo Kelly:

So throughout my childhood, I felt like terrorism on a very big international.

Leo Kelly:

Scary scale and was very prevalent in my, in my childhood, particularly

Leo Kelly:

having grown up in London during the seven seven tax and being

Leo Kelly:

there with my family at the time.

Leo Kelly:

And then these things carried on and it was always something

Leo Kelly:

that I was really interested in.

Leo Kelly:

And then throughout my undergraduate, I wrote a lot about terrorism and

Leo Kelly:

read up a lot about cast terrorism.

Leo Kelly:

I said the passion, I think stem from childhood in terms of how

Leo Kelly:

can we protect these things?

Leo Kelly:

How can we protect people from these disastrous events happen?

Leo Kelly:

And mitigating 'em as best as we can.

Leo Kelly:

And then that sort of develops many, many, over, many, many years into,

Leo Kelly:

into my desire to join the security industry to do something about it.

Leo Kelly:

Perhaps

Jon Moss:

Mm.

Jon Moss:

And, uh, you know, certainly if there was any doubt that you qualify as a young

Jon Moss:

professional, that certainly put it into perspective to hear that you were to hear

Jon Moss:

that you were six at the time of nine 11.

Jon Moss:

I, I remember myself, I, I was actually God commander.

Jon Moss:

I was still in the, and I was God commander on that very day.

Jon Moss:

and yeah, so can imagine,

Leo Kelly:

you?

Jon Moss:

So you've certainly grown up at a time when there's been.

Jon Moss:

So much going on in, terms of, geopolitics and, the terrorism

Jon Moss:

threats that we've all lived with in these latter years.

Jon Moss:

But for you, it's been your life.

Jon Moss:

And I think from the perspective of somebody who's been in the industry

Jon Moss:

slightly longer, and especially come from a military background, that in

Jon Moss:

informed a lot of, um, you know, my decision making and, and reasoning for.

Jon Moss:

In this industry.

Jon Moss:

on one hand it could seem strange that, young people have gravitated to the

Jon Moss:

industry, through these influences.

Jon Moss:

But I think hearing it in your own words, it, it kind of makes sense and.

Jon Moss:

It's certainly an impressive thing to hear that, we have, young people

Jon Moss:

of your caliber who are coming into the industry with, with a real

Jon Moss:

purpose and want to make a change.

Jon Moss:

And, uh, you know, with that said, what is it that you see, I know

Jon Moss:

it's early days, but where do you see your career trajectory?

Jon Moss:

Where do you see yourself going and, and what is it that you want to.

Leo Kelly:

That's another great question.

Leo Kelly:

I'd say I'd love to one day be with a lot of hard work to be maybe a chief

Leo Kelly:

chief risk officer or a potentially chief security officer, depending

Leo Kelly:

on which avenue my career goes down.

Leo Kelly:

And then as time goes on, Maybe, uh, like a non-executive board

Leo Kelly:

director, something like that.

Leo Kelly:

But this is maybe 30 years away.

Leo Kelly:

Um, in the meantime, um, just continue to, to work hard and, um,

Leo Kelly:

I'm sure my passions in security and risk management, operational

Leo Kelly:

resilience will, will carry on.

Leo Kelly:

Um, and.

Leo Kelly:

Yeah, I think, um, I'd also love to work abroad and this experience of

Leo Kelly:

being abroad for near six months now in Latin America has taught me that

Leo Kelly:

there's so much great opportunity in London, which I have missed, but it's

Leo Kelly:

also been great to experience different cultures and I like to do this again

Leo Kelly:

as well at some point in my life.

Jon Moss:

Yeah, I'm sure you'll, return a lot richer for those experiences.

Jon Moss:

And, speaking of experience, as we mentioned, you came into this

Jon Moss:

through an academic route and, you know, not coming through, uh,

Jon Moss:

Military or police, type background.

Jon Moss:

And what do you think you gained by coming at it through an academic

Jon Moss:

route and maybe not having the institutional influences of coming

Jon Moss:

through a more military root?

Leo Kelly:

yeah, that's another great question.

Leo Kelly:

I'd say the.

Leo Kelly:

The disadvantage of not coming through a, a police or a military route like

Leo Kelly:

so many people in the industry have is understanding and being aware of

Leo Kelly:

that very real sense of risk that you would feel in those environments.

Leo Kelly:

Whether you are trying to arrest someone or you are running an exercise or you're

Leo Kelly:

camping in the rain for nine days.

Leo Kelly:

Like those kind of things you don't really get in academia, um, or those kind of

Leo Kelly:

real threat of risk of how to manage that.

Leo Kelly:

And a high pressure that that's,

Jon Moss:

and breed.

Jon Moss:

Glass and breed doesn't count then

Leo Kelly:

yeah, Um, but then the advantage of the more academic

Leo Kelly:

sides to have come from, I would argue it does give you a better

Leo Kelly:

understanding of some of the concepts.

Leo Kelly:

For security, how to communicate present.

Leo Kelly:

I'm sure these things are learned in the, in the place of , but for me,

Leo Kelly:

there's personally, those are skills for me that were hond a lot as well,

Leo Kelly:

uh, from, from the academic side.

Leo Kelly:

So if you, if you think about security and risk management as a

Leo Kelly:

business enabler and more broadly, Fitting in with the organization?

Leo Kelly:

I think so, so many of those skills and the soft skills you get from the academic

Leo Kelly:

side, um, I personally learned a lot there that can, that helped me in my career.

Jon Moss:

And, uh, I know it's early days, but at, at this stage, what are

Jon Moss:

the challenges that you've identified?

Jon Moss:

What, where do you see the, uh, the potential speed bumps at Lay ahead and,

Jon Moss:

and what are you doing to counter those?

Jon Moss:

I, if indeed there are any, uh,

Leo Kelly:

Okay.

Leo Kelly:

So I think speaking to people who have had many thirties experience is, is

Leo Kelly:

becoming stale in a job perhaps, and knowing when to move on, knowing when

Leo Kelly:

to quit, um, and there are obviously so many great opportunities and

Leo Kelly:

staying fresh and enjoying yourself in those opportunities, I think.

Leo Kelly:

I think is a, is often a hard decision to make in terms of

Leo Kelly:

how much have I got out of this?

Leo Kelly:

And I often feel like leaving at the right time when, when things are

Leo Kelly:

still relatively good, um, is, is an important decision because if you

Leo Kelly:

drag it out and if you like, really get too comfortable in a role, um,

Leo Kelly:

I think that's in some ways a risk.

Leo Kelly:

Um, I would argue that a good dancer always knows when to leave the stage.

Leo Kelly:

If you get staged long, it's gonna, it's gonna fizzle.

Leo Kelly:

No matter how good you are.

Leo Kelly:

Um, so that, that's a speed bump potentially that you

Leo Kelly:

could, I could see in the road.

Leo Kelly:

Um, another speed bump for that matter is not having the right role

Leo Kelly:

at all and being, um, unsatisfied.

Leo Kelly:

And, um, yeah.

Leo Kelly:

So those are the two things I'd say.

Jon Moss:

Yeah, I, I think these are really relevant.

Jon Moss:

I think it's great that you've identified them so early on, but then maybe that

Jon Moss:

that's not the biggest challenge.

Jon Moss:

Perhaps it's avoiding them, because for sure, these are two

Jon Moss:

big things that really do it exist within the security industry and.

Jon Moss:

You don't have to look far to see people who are, suffering with both of

Jon Moss:

those challenges and don't necessarily know where to turn or, perhaps have

Jon Moss:

lost the confidence and the, um, maneuverability within their careers,

Jon Moss:

or at least as they perceive it.

Jon Moss:

So I think these are really important things to think about early on.

Jon Moss:

I certainly applaud you for, uh, I identifying those so, given that you

Jon Moss:

have these fantastic insights already, what, would your message be to any other

Jon Moss:

young or aspiring, uh, professionals, you know, perhaps who aren't certain about,

Jon Moss:

uh, career in the security industry?

Jon Moss:

What would your message to those be for why they should give it to consideration?

Leo Kelly:

I think the skills industry from my experience in London is Incre

Leo Kelly:

England more broadly is so welcoming and so there's, I found that the

Leo Kelly:

industry has always been incredibly accommodated for whoever you are and.

Leo Kelly:

To that end it, I've always found it so easy and natural to, to

Leo Kelly:

make friends in the industry.

Leo Kelly:

I feel like it's the only one I've I've ever worked in, but I can

Leo Kelly:

imagine a lot more industries are, are unfriendly and there's a bit

Leo Kelly:

more bravada about it, which I don't feel exists in the security industry.

Leo Kelly:

I feel like everyone is incredibly honest and says it how it is, which

Leo Kelly:

you think is really important.

Leo Kelly:

Um, and that is an attractive quality of the industry and why a

Leo Kelly:

young professionals should work.

Leo Kelly:

I also think, going back to my earlier point around why do I work in there,

Leo Kelly:

in the security industry, it's, it's down to helping people protect people.

Leo Kelly:

And if that's for you, then, then I'd highly recommend it.

Leo Kelly:

Um, yeah.

Leo Kelly:

What, what are your thoughts on that?

Jon Moss:

I would say that my experience might be slightly

Jon Moss:

different, but that could be.

Jon Moss:

More to do with our respective backgrounds and the, and the roots in

Jon Moss:

which we've come into the industry.

Jon Moss:

Also, you know, you're, you are entering the security industry,

Jon Moss:

from a very different, um, point of entry than that, which I did.

Jon Moss:

I, I still find that a lot of my colleagues and the environments

Jon Moss:

and the method of operation.

Jon Moss:

It's still very quasi-military.

Jon Moss:

It's that attitude of, you know, why throw out something that works for you.

Jon Moss:

And when I came into the industry as, as a lot of my peers did, it was as a

Jon Moss:

reaction to nine 11 and it created an opportunity and there was a huge demand.

Jon Moss:

And whenever you get those types of situations, uh, people flood

Jon Moss:

in and there isn't necessarily the structure, uh, and, so you have

Jon Moss:

to start to make that yourself.

Jon Moss:

You have to create the, the environment and the, the right

Jon Moss:

set of operating conditions.

Jon Moss:

And so naturally, if you are coming from the military and you have, you know,

Jon Moss:

very formulaic ways of doing things, then you will bring those in with you.

Jon Moss:

And so, yeah, so I, I think my transition and experience is, is, um, it, it

Jon Moss:

dilutes over time and you start to feel like, this has its own personality.

Jon Moss:

This has its own identity, but very much built on those foundations.

Jon Moss:

So, for me, listening to you speak now, it's really an education and

Jon Moss:

it's eyeopening as well to realize that there are other roots and other,

Jon Moss:

practices and ways in which, you know, you can operate in this industry.

Leo Kelly:

Yeah.

Jon Moss:

Does that make sense?

Leo Kelly:

it does.

Leo Kelly:

Yeah.

Leo Kelly:

It, I have always felt like a bit of an outlier to some extent in the industry

Leo Kelly:

having not come from operational security or police or the military background.

Leo Kelly:

Um, but it's, it's always been a positive.

Leo Kelly:

Um, it's not, it's not held me back.

Leo Kelly:

It's just been a different angle of approach.

Jon Moss:

Yeah.

Jon Moss:

I could see that for sure.

Jon Moss:

There are some burdens that come with that as well.

Jon Moss:

And I think being able to come in with fresh eyes and you will see

Jon Moss:

things that other people might miss.

Jon Moss:

You know, conversely, yeah.

Jon Moss:

You know, you don't have a lot of the experience, but you're coming

Jon Moss:

into an industry where that exists and like you say, your experience

Jon Moss:

has been, a very friendly security industry, people who want to help you.

Jon Moss:

And so, having all of that experience around you, and if you are receptive

Jon Moss:

to it, then you can only grow with us.

Jon Moss:

So I think you're adopting a fantastic model and building a great

Jon Moss:

career path in these early days.

Leo Kelly:

Thank you.

Phelim Rowe:

So, so now that we've come, you know, gotten to know

Phelim Rowe:

you as, as an audience, of course.

Phelim Rowe:

You know, I, I, I've known you for a while.

Phelim Rowe:

It, it might be nice and, and admittedly this is under the theme of young

Phelim Rowe:

professionals, you know, how, how to appreciate them, how, how to, how

Phelim Rowe:

to think where they're coming from.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, your, your own background recently in the recent years has been note.

Phelim Rowe:

And I mention that because where you'd last worked, um, you did have to take

Phelim Rowe:

on lots of extra responsibilities, which, you know, sometimes people might

Phelim Rowe:

shirk and sometimes in your case, very, very luckily, you seem to have thrived.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, um, what, what can you speak to that and that period?

Phelim Rowe:

What can you tell us, you know, what would you like to share?

Phelim Rowe:

You know, personal anecdotes as well.

Phelim Rowe:

But, but, but, but also, I.

Phelim Rowe:

Was it easy to, to take on those responsibilities?

Phelim Rowe:

Was it, was it, was it a choice even, or, or was it conscious?

Leo Kelly:

Well, that's a great question.

Leo Kelly:

I'd say.

Leo Kelly:

It wasn't just, it definitely wasn't easy.

Leo Kelly:

Um, for context, my previous manager passed away and there was, there

Leo Kelly:

was then a big hole in, in the team who, he had five different,

Leo Kelly:

um, direct reports essentially.

Leo Kelly:

And so there was a lot of stepping up that had to be done amongst the team.

Leo Kelly:

And it was definitely a team effort.

Leo Kelly:

It definitely wasn't all me.

Leo Kelly:

There were a lot of gaps, which I stepped up into, but it

Leo Kelly:

ended up being a very sad time.

Leo Kelly:

However, over the months following his death, there was, there was, it

Leo Kelly:

was a great development opportunity in terms of, I learned a lot at the

Leo Kelly:

time and dealing with things, uh, in uncertain times and, and adverse times.

Leo Kelly:

It makes you grow.

Leo Kelly:

And then a few months after his death came in the pandemic, so everything

Leo Kelly:

felt like it was on full, full blast in terms of, uh, growing and workloads.

Leo Kelly:

Um, so it, it was, it was a weird time, but it was one I wouldn't, I

Leo Kelly:

mean, yeah, it was, it was a weird time and I wish he was still around.

Leo Kelly:

Of course, um, Mr.

Leo Kelly:

Clark.

Leo Kelly:

I'm sure if he was listening to this, he'd be happy, um, that we're doing

Leo Kelly:

this as he was passionate about asis and the development of young professionals.

Leo Kelly:

And he was, uh, he was a great man for, for those reasons and many others.

Leo Kelly:

Um, so yeah, it was, it was a very sad time, but that you learn to adapt

Leo Kelly:

and change in those circumstances.

Phelim Rowe:

And so would you recommend other people attempt to seek out

Phelim Rowe:

extra responsibilities in areas that they're not comfortable with?

Phelim Rowe:

I, I, I, I enjoyed, sorry.

Phelim Rowe:

I enjoyed the strong word.

Phelim Rowe:

I benefited from having to do the finance side of, uh, uh, work.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, that, that, that's been a very useful string to my bow.

Leo Kelly:

Yeah.

Phelim Rowe:

Even though it's not my background, would, would you

Phelim Rowe:

recommend seeking out more things like.

Leo Kelly:

I think so, but only to, to a, to a degree.

Leo Kelly:

I think there's, there's things like doing your accounts or, or,

Leo Kelly:

or learning a different wing of the security industry that you

Leo Kelly:

might not feel so comfortable with.

Leo Kelly:

I think that's good to, to dip into, but if it really doesn't make you happy and

Leo Kelly:

you're not really enjoying it, I feel like there's a, there's a point of no return.

Leo Kelly:

So I think, yeah, try and look some basic, look, some basic

Leo Kelly:

skills in that area and be open to.

Leo Kelly:

Don't, don't take away everything that you enjoy about your role by, by

Leo Kelly:

committing to that, which is, is very easy to do, to get lost in, in an area

Leo Kelly:

which you're not so passionate about, but is really useful and helpful.

Leo Kelly:

So trying to balance it with things you enjoy.

Leo Kelly:

Cause I think that's the most important thing with work and security industry.

Leo Kelly:

If you're not enjoying it, you're not happy, then, then

Leo Kelly:

you need to reconsider it.

Leo Kelly:

I think.

Jon Moss:

This is often seen as the trade off between, uh, career

Jon Moss:

development and enjoyment of the role.

Jon Moss:

And I don't think it needs to be, at the sacrifice of one or the other.

Jon Moss:

Though it often is.

Jon Moss:

And often we do it more willingly than I think we realize, and

Jon Moss:

yeah, that's quite a trade off.

Jon Moss:

And it's really great point that you've highlighted.

Jon Moss:

And I think anyone, no matter where they are, Sat in their career listening

Jon Moss:

to this today, could do well to remind themselves of that, that the

Jon Moss:

job can still be one that you enjoy, as well as having progression in it.

Leo Kelly:

Yeah, that's the ideal sit spot.

Leo Kelly:

Yeah.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and Leo, you seem to have mastered, and I hope you don't mind

Phelim Rowe:

me saying this, you seem to have mastered the art of, I suppose, being a little

Phelim Rowe:

bit more humble than people are used to expecting, uh, young professionals to be.

Phelim Rowe:

I say this with the wonderful, uh, preconception that, uh, all, uh,

Phelim Rowe:

fresh, uh, faced professionals are, you know, headed to be the CSO tomorrow.

Phelim Rowe:

And, you know, there is, there is that kind of.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, attitude that some in the industry sort of believe exists.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, I don't know if it does.

Phelim Rowe:

I know that perhaps I was a little bit guilty of it at the beginning.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, uh, and I, and I, this is sort of like a question dash compliment, right?

Phelim Rowe:

I'm complimenting you and, and, and saying that you've mastered

Phelim Rowe:

the art of being a bit more humble.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, but, but, but, but what would your advice be to, let's say 21

Phelim Rowe:

year old, uh, security professional?

Phelim Rowe:

Who's basically chomping at the bit and going, you don't understand.

Phelim Rowe:

I am CSO material.

Phelim Rowe:

be the CSO today.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, I mean, what, how can, how can we curb their enthusiasm but not,

Phelim Rowe:

not, not extinguish their person?

Leo Kelly:

I mean, if someone's saying that, I would say prove it.

Leo Kelly:

Like, prove you can do, prove it.

Leo Kelly:

Prove you can do that

Phelim Rowe:

But you just gimme a chance.

Phelim Rowe:

chance and I'll lead the entire organization tomorrow.

Phelim Rowe:

never done anything in my life, but you I exaggerate.

Leo Kelly:

I mean, I, I admire their confidence, um, that

Leo Kelly:

that's just not realistic even for someone of that age, unless.

Leo Kelly:

Unless they, they started when they were 14 and there's some sort

Leo Kelly:

of super kids, um, it's unlikely.

Leo Kelly:

But if someone is really saying that, I, I feel like you should

Leo Kelly:

give them a, um, the benefit of the doubt to the extent, but don't, not,

Leo Kelly:

don't believe everything you hear.

Leo Kelly:

Um, um, you often hear and read CVS that.

Leo Kelly:

Like top class professional or like, uh, interesting adjectives

Leo Kelly:

to describe themselves.

Leo Kelly:

And you kind of need to look a bit through the layers of that and understand like

Leo Kelly:

what, what metrics have you achieved to, to determine those, those adjectives.

Leo Kelly:

And I think people are entitled to say that, but if you aren't

Leo Kelly:

gonna say that, back that up with.

Leo Kelly:

Some quantitative proof that you are, or some experience to demonstrate that.

Leo Kelly:

Uh, and, and I think selling yourself and putting yourself out there,

Leo Kelly:

marketing is, is so important.

Leo Kelly:

Uh, but just having the, the, the meat on the bones as well to, to, to demonstrate

Leo Kelly:

that is, is even more important.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and that meat on the bone, maybe you can achieve with tenure.

Phelim Rowe:

And I know before you, you spoke about don't get stale, right?

Phelim Rowe:

Don't stagnate.

Leo Kelly:

Yeah.

Phelim Rowe:

But there seems to be, and this happened to me in the great

Phelim Rowe:

crash of, uh, oh 7, 0 8, um, I, I was coming up against people who

Phelim Rowe:

were scared for their jobs because of the economic environment and.

Phelim Rowe:

I had to really pitch my inclusion in the organization very carefully,

Phelim Rowe:

and I was not very careful.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, so I learned how to be a bit more careful.

Phelim Rowe:

I'm I'm, I'm being, uh, you know, nebulous on purpose.

Phelim Rowe:

How can we balance that?

Phelim Rowe:

So, is tenure important?

Phelim Rowe:

Is tenure relevant?

Phelim Rowe:

And if it is, how can we, without being stale and tenured, how can we balance?

Phelim Rowe:

Tenured with skills and fresh enthusiasm and.

Leo Kelly:

That, that is the, the perfect combination.

Leo Kelly:

I, I found so far that learning, taking courses, networking,

Leo Kelly:

meeting people is, is.

Leo Kelly:

For me, that, that thing that keeps me, um, excited and motivated, I

Leo Kelly:

think that's, that's really important.

Leo Kelly:

Um, and looking back on the best times in my career journey so far,

Leo Kelly:

they were at, at an ASA seminar or, um, a Crisis 24 webinar or.

Leo Kelly:

Um, uh, one of fill in rose's, uh, securitization or modernization events.

Leo Kelly:

So , the, are, the, are these things you can, that's, that's for me,

Leo Kelly:

uh, as a, as a social person and someone who enjoys networking and

Leo Kelly:

learning from others, that's, that's where the, the real phone comes.

Leo Kelly:

Um, but that might be only two or three hours in a week, uh, where

Leo Kelly:

you're working hard and, um, Looking at different documentation and it

Leo Kelly:

being very analytical, which is also enjoy, enjoyable and interesting.

Leo Kelly:

Um, so it, it's a balance, but I think keeping that balance is really important

Leo Kelly:

and not being changed your desk for 40 hours a week or more and, and getting

Leo Kelly:

out there and meeting people is, uh, that that's what brings it all together.

Leo Kelly:

I.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and as long as I suppose you approach it with,

Phelim Rowe:

with, with that perspective and, and with good, good heart, you

Phelim Rowe:

know, good, good, good motivations.

Phelim Rowe:

I think people will maybe not, not actually question age, they'll be like,

Phelim Rowe:

mm, yes, Leo is X or, or Y and Z and, um, and, and he'll fit into the, the team.

Phelim Rowe:

But, but again, I, I'm, I'm thinking listeners, you know,

Phelim Rowe:

some, let's say they're in their forties and they're struggling.

Phelim Rowe:

And then they're like, wow, there's a bit of a bottleneck, isn't there?

Phelim Rowe:

Because I've got, I've got competition from people who are fresh outta college,

Phelim Rowe:

people in their thirties, people in their sixties, people in their nineties, okay.

Phelim Rowe:

Maybe not nineties, but you know, like, um, I, I think, yeah, if we could solve

Phelim Rowe:

that on this podcast, we'd be rich.

Phelim Rowe:

Okay.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, but, but I, but I throw it out there because I know that

Phelim Rowe:

some listeners are thinking, hang.

Phelim Rowe:

I have an issue, uh, too, I have, uh, stumbled in my career.

Phelim Rowe:

Maybe I've, uh, hit a, a block or something like that.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, so maybe then let's, let's ask a more productive question.

Phelim Rowe:

So re regardless of age, how can we create a team of security

Phelim Rowe:

operators or security professionals where we are not questioning age?

Phelim Rowe:

How, how, how would you advocate for that?

Phelim Rowe:

I know you're not in charge of massive teams, but if you were

Phelim Rowe:

to get them in a room and say, look, this would really help.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, uh, you know, so, so no one goes, oh, young Leo, or, or, or something like that.

Phelim Rowe:

How, how, how can we just have a team of, of different, uh, tenure.

Leo Kelly:

Yeah.

Leo Kelly:

Changing that narrative I think is, would be really important.

Leo Kelly:

I.

Leo Kelly:

I think it's about being consistent over, over a, a year, two years more.

Leo Kelly:

Because once, once you are consistent after that period of time, you do have

Leo Kelly:

to put the ground market, of course, like anyone's, like any job at any new age.

Leo Kelly:

But once you put that in, I think, I think they can come that, that

Leo Kelly:

sense of respect and, and that's really important for a professional,

Leo Kelly:

especially when they're starting out.

Leo Kelly:

So just, just being consistent and polite.

Leo Kelly:

I think that goes a long way, um, because they'll soon realize that you, you're

Leo Kelly:

just as capable despite not being quite safe, experienced, but your brain is still

Leo Kelly:

as as good if all, uh, better than some.

Leo Kelly:

So, and you can bring fresh and new ideas.

Leo Kelly:

So there's, there's lots of positives that can be, can draw

Leo Kelly:

from a NextGen professional.

Leo Kelly:

I'd encourage lots of people to, to believe,

Phelim Rowe:

But why are, and here's the prejudice, some of your

Phelim Rowe:

year group, some of your age group engaging in the great resignation.

Phelim Rowe:

Now that's a loaded question because, because, because maybe they're

Phelim Rowe:

not, maybe they're actually not.

Leo Kelly:

Yeah, I think something I've learnt, particularly having

Leo Kelly:

taken some time away from the working world is throughout Covid we

Leo Kelly:

were told to follow so many rules.

Leo Kelly:

You, you have to be in bed at this time, you can't go out.

Leo Kelly:

Um, and everyone, particularly in the younger generation felt so stifled and

Leo Kelly:

I'm sure so many people in the world did.

Leo Kelly:

And I think there was this great sense that, well, we had to follow

Leo Kelly:

all these rules in society for so.

Leo Kelly:

And a lot of people say it's up a lot of money in that time, so

Leo Kelly:

now I wanna enjoy myself cause I dunno how long this is gonna last.

Leo Kelly:

Like a lot of people lost relatives in Covid and friends and, and

Leo Kelly:

there's, I think Covid gave people a long time to reflect on their

Leo Kelly:

lives and what was important to them and what made them happy.

Leo Kelly:

So in that time, so many people have thought, right, once this is over,

Leo Kelly:

like I really wanna enjoy my life.

Leo Kelly:

And that's not to say work can't enjoy that, but I think the last two or two,

Leo Kelly:

two years demonstrated, two or three years now demonstrated how much we were, it

Leo Kelly:

was almost like all hands on deck to, to get us through covid and now it's over.

Leo Kelly:

My contemporaries have started this great race nation.

Leo Kelly:

Uh, I think that's slowing down from what I hear now.

Leo Kelly:

This is more start of this year back, end of last year where this really took off.

Leo Kelly:

But um, yeah, I think that's the reason behind that.

Leo Kelly:

What do you think, Phillip?

Phelim Rowe:

What do I think?

Phelim Rowe:

Well, I think you are right.

Phelim Rowe:

I think people have gone, hang on.

Phelim Rowe:

I am investing in the future.

Phelim Rowe:

However, in the future, can I enjoy my investment?

Phelim Rowe:

Maybe I want to enjoy it now.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, you know, why am I investing to retire at, on paper 67, 70, 72?

Phelim Rowe:

Depends on your age when I can go traveling around Latin America right now.

Phelim Rowe:

You know, cuz if, you know, hey, I would love to be as healthy at

Phelim Rowe:

72 as I am now and, and be able to really enjoy, uh, the Amazon jungle.

Phelim Rowe:

Love it, right?

Phelim Rowe:

However, probably not.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, gonna be quite the same.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, so, so I think that's literally what's what's happened.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, also, a lot of people have thought, um, you know, Sticking a role for five

Phelim Rowe:

years minimum, because otherwise it looks like a squiggly career path.

Phelim Rowe:

I think people have gone, well, actually no, , that's not, that's not true.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, and, uh, and, and I, and I can, um, uh, progress by hopping

Phelim Rowe:

and gaining extra experiences.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, and I, and I can, uh, go on a sabbatical to Latin America like

Phelim Rowe:

yourself and, uh, um, And, and, and, and find more about myself.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, now, now whether or not, and, and this has been the age old

Phelim Rowe:

problem on backpackers and, and gapa, uh, and, and all of that, right?

Phelim Rowe:

When you come back and everyone's like, oh, nice.

Phelim Rowe:

You know, you, you, you think, you think you've got skills to bring

Phelim Rowe:

to the table, um, and you do.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, but everyone else is slightly jealous.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, so, so, so that, that's the only thing I can envisage being a bit of

Phelim Rowe:

an issue, um, for, for people on.

Phelim Rowe:

The Great Lie down or the great resignation.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, but on that, on a personal note, cuz obviously we've done a lot of

Phelim Rowe:

thematic questions for this interview.

Phelim Rowe:

What have you been learning, um, on your, you abroad that you, not you abroad,

Phelim Rowe:

but you know, uh, time, time away, that, that you think will help you in the

Phelim Rowe:

security industry when you come back?

Leo Kelly:

or, that's, that's another great question.

Leo Kelly:

I think I've met so many people from.

Leo Kelly:

So many different backgrounds and, um, income levels, et cetera, and just

Leo Kelly:

always having, uh, a kind approach to things and being empathetic.

Leo Kelly:

We've met so many amazing people across Latin America, um, which is very

Leo Kelly:

different to the busy leveled environment and some of the characters you might.

Leo Kelly:

Meet there in what is a very, can be a very competitive and fast paced place.

Leo Kelly:

Um, so getting some perspective on that and realizing some of the

Leo Kelly:

things that were happening in London and in the security industry or, or

Leo Kelly:

generally, uh, and getting some distance from that has been quite healthy.

Leo Kelly:

Um, so just coming in with fresh eyes, um, again in the new year

Leo Kelly:

will be, will be a nice experience and one I'm looking forward to.

Leo Kelly:

I'd say

Phelim Rowe:

Absolutely.

Phelim Rowe:

Yeah.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and, and, uh, you know, maybe, maybe you'll, you'll get a role where

Phelim Rowe:

you have to travel to Latin America and they'll be like, Hey, who's,

Phelim Rowe:

who's been, uh, to Buenos Cyrus?

Phelim Rowe:

Ah, me.

Phelim Rowe:

I don't know if you have, I'm not saying half, but you know.

Phelim Rowe:

Oh, you have?

Phelim Rowe:

Okay.

Phelim Rowe:

Brilliant.

Phelim Rowe:

There you go.

Phelim Rowe:

. Um,

Leo Kelly:

I think also my Spanish has come to a level where someone

Leo Kelly:

said to me the other day I was fluent, so Oh, that thing I'd like to be

Leo Kelly:

the table one day potentially is, is Spanish speaking in, in my job.

Leo Kelly:

Uh, that would be, that would be fun.

Leo Kelly:

So just, just having like a more global understanding of how the world

Leo Kelly:

works and, and the way we interact.

Leo Kelly:

Um, I've also also have regular calls into the UK and just understanding

Leo Kelly:

how connected we are as well.

Leo Kelly:

And to, to some extent I feel closer than ever to some of.

Leo Kelly:

Contacts, um, despite the, the long distance.

Leo Kelly:

So, uh, and I think Covid taught us that as well.

Leo Kelly:

But, uh, having like felt it with the physical distance from Brazil where I

Leo Kelly:

am now to, to London where most of my contacts are, it's, uh, it's all possible.

Phelim Rowe:

And that's, and that's really nice.

Phelim Rowe:

And hey, this, this interview is testament to that.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, so through the, through the, through the power of, uh, the

Phelim Rowe:

internet, uh, we, we, we, we are chatting to you in, in, uh, Brazil.

Phelim Rowe:

Right.

Phelim Rowe:

So what's next for you?

Phelim Rowe:

What, uh, what should people watch out for?

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, how can they get in touch if they want to, uh, learn more

Phelim Rowe:

from an, from a YP or NextGen?

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, or, uh, if, if, if they want to in integrate a NextGen colleague into their

Phelim Rowe:

team, how can they reach out to you?

Leo Kelly:

So I maintain very responsive.

Leo Kelly:

So just Leo Kelly is my name and or via email, Kelly Leo 5 62 gmail.com.

Leo Kelly:

Very, uh, responsive there.

Leo Kelly:

Uh, are happy to, to talk and.

Leo Kelly:

Um, I always love networking in security industries, so I'm always happy to

Leo Kelly:

have a call or meet up and to chat.

Leo Kelly:

And what I'd say is any aspiring leader to bring in a, an NextGen professional

Leo Kelly:

is, is, uh, please consider it.

Leo Kelly:

And, um, uh, often it's, uh, cheaper because, uh, there's less, less, uh,

Leo Kelly:

weight of expectation on experience and.

Leo Kelly:

But there's also a lot of things that the industry can learn from young

Leo Kelly:

professionals and, uh, what current trends are and, um, the state of play and

Leo Kelly:

people in their twenties and thirties.

Leo Kelly:

So, uh, yeah, I'd urge all hiring managers to consider young professionals

Leo Kelly:

in their decision making processes.

Phelim Rowe:

Bargain.

Phelim Rowe:

Yeah.

Phelim Rowe:

. Great.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, well, well, Leo, thanks for joining us.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, on, on your, on.

Phelim Rowe:

And I'm looking forward to seeing you back in London very soon.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, but, uh, but yeah, this is, this is a nice look.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, a slight departure.

Phelim Rowe:

You know, we've looked at so many topics on the podcast.

Phelim Rowe:

We've looked at, uh, you know, transitioning from the military.

Phelim Rowe:

We've looked at, uh, professional driving, uh, protection.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, we've had.

Phelim Rowe:

A look recently, even at industrial psychology, uh,

Phelim Rowe:

under the skin of your team.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, uh, so, so, so yes, why not YP NextGen as a topic, um, as we

Phelim Rowe:

increasingly have a, have a, have a wider listenership for the podcast.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, so from John and myself, thank you Leo.

Phelim Rowe:

This has been another fantastic edition of the Circuit Magazine podcast.

Phelim Rowe:

Well, thank you very much, Leo, and, uh, great to hear from you.

Phelim Rowe:

Obviously you've been a fixture on the UK circuit, but now great to bring you

Phelim Rowe:

to the attention of the international community, uh, young professionals.

Phelim Rowe:

Obviously, I, I joke all the time.

Phelim Rowe:

We, we were all young once, however, we might sometimes forget about

Phelim Rowe:

the challenges and opportunities that we can have from, uh,

Phelim Rowe:

engaging with the next cohort.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, John, what, what did you make of today's?

Jon Moss:

Yeah, that's great.

Jon Moss:

I mean, you know, Leo is a young man.

Jon Moss:

He is confident, he's humble.

Jon Moss:

He seems to have his.

Jon Moss:

Head screwed on very well and has a, a really great grasp of the industry.

Jon Moss:

You know, he, he's picked up on the flavor for it, but at the same time,

Jon Moss:

you know, he hasn't, he, he hasn't been overall by anything and he very much

Jon Moss:

knows what he wants to get out of it.

Jon Moss:

I think, you know, it's really commendable.

Phelim Rowe:

Which, which I think it dispels some of the

Phelim Rowe:

myths that each generation have.

Phelim Rowe:

The next generation.

Phelim Rowe:

Oh, the next generation is, uh, lazy.

Phelim Rowe:

The next generation is overconfident, uh, that the next generation

Phelim Rowe:

thinks they know everything.

Phelim Rowe:

And I, I think, no, that's, that's not necessarily true.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and absolutely Leo is towing, uh, the right line.

Phelim Rowe:

We mentioned.

Phelim Rowe:

Of course, Leo stepped up to the plate, uh, with his team, uh, after the very

Phelim Rowe:

surpassing of Dave Clark who was, uh, the chair for the UK ASIS chapter.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and actually that, that shines a light on whether or not we should all step

Phelim Rowe:

up to the plate anyway, to gain experience of, of, of a wider range of, uh, sectors.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, obviously we, we keep on talking about the protector of tomorrow.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, you know, learning about cyber, not becoming a hacker about finance,

Phelim Rowe:

but not becoming an accountant.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, do, do you think there's a good, uh, narrative for audience there?

Jon Moss:

Yeah, for sure.

Jon Moss:

I mean, look, you know, opportunities will come along and they'll come along

Jon Moss:

in many different ways in your career, you know, and it's as, sad that the.

Jon Moss:

Of an instance that this was, that gave Leo that opportunity for growth.

Jon Moss:

it's all about how you respond when these moments happen, and you really have to,

Jon Moss:

uh, grasp the opportunity and run with it, as Leo really seems to have done

Jon Moss:

and he will benefit from this in the long run, this will be a great foundation

Jon Moss:

for the rest of his security career.

Phelim Rowe:

Absolutely.

Phelim Rowe:

And, you know, hopefully we'll get to, uh, we'll get to follow his, uh, his path.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, but yes, if you are a young professional and you don't feel

Phelim Rowe:

heard, we, we want to hear from you.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, if you are a, a small, seasoned professional and you, you, you

Phelim Rowe:

want to think about gelling with different generations in

Phelim Rowe:

the one team, absolutely that.

Phelim Rowe:

That is, that is some, uh, something we probably want

Phelim Rowe:

to cover in a future episode.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, but John, what else have we got coming up?

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, maybe with the magazine, the app, uh, the podcast?

Phelim Rowe:

What, what do we want people to know about.

Jon Moss:

Well, you know, Paul, we put out lots of content across

Jon Moss:

lots of different channels and everyone, listening to these words now

Jon Moss:

certainly engage with us through the.

Jon Moss:

But I, I wonder how many people, who are listening to

Jon Moss:

this also read the newsletter.

Jon Moss:

So, for anyone who doesn't know the circuit also produces a weekly

Jon Moss:

newsletter called On the Circuit.

Jon Moss:

And, I would really implore anyone who.

Jon Moss:

Doesn't subscribe to it already to do.

Jon Moss:

So, it's completely free and what it does is each week it focuses on

Jon Moss:

the events of the week, what's been going on in the security industry.

Jon Moss:

We, uh, infuse that with circuit content.

Jon Moss:

So some articles, from the magazine, uh, along with, uh, referencing the podcast.

Jon Moss:

Make readers aware of new and upcoming, events, to add to your calendar.

Jon Moss:

And what it does is it just closes the week out really nicely.

Jon Moss:

It comes out rather uniquely on a Saturday.

Jon Moss:

So it's not getting clogged up in your mailbox with anything else.

Jon Moss:

You've got the whole weekend, to sit back and enjoy it either in

Jon Moss:

one go, you know, or in chunks.

Jon Moss:

But yeah, so if, if you either aren't a subscriber to on the

Jon Moss:

circuit, then please give it a look.

Jon Moss:

And if you are, then

Jon Moss:

we would be very, grateful if you could share it with a friend and

Jon Moss:

help us get the word out there.

Phelim Rowe:

Yes, please do.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and I do look forward to it.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, even though of course, I, I, I do in some way help contribute it.

Phelim Rowe:

I know, I know you, you are, you are very much leading it.

Phelim Rowe:

But I, but I do get excited every time it, it drops in, in my inbox.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, Uh, and, and, and actually that's a nice segue to talk about, uh, you, the

Phelim Rowe:

audience, uh, enjoying, uh, content.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, I was, uh, very recently, um, at the CP World Event in London, and many

Phelim Rowe:

of you stopped by, To basically say how much you enjoyed a certain episode.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and it was really heartening because I had no idea.

Phelim Rowe:

And , you know, you, you know, it was lovely to have anecdotes of, uh, you know,

Phelim Rowe:

maybe, maybe something all the way back to the first, uh, ones where we did with

Phelim Rowe:

Mac and hotel security, um, all the way through to, uh, industrial psychology

Phelim Rowe:

that we did with, uh, Nico and Shu.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, so, so thanks very much for stopping by and.

Phelim Rowe:

You know, giving us your thoughts because that really does make a difference.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, obviously we get fan mail if, if, if you might not like topic.

Phelim Rowe:

But we, we, we very much love to hear if you do love, uh, a topic.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and some of you said also very interestingly that you enjoy

Phelim Rowe:

the longer form, uh, interviews.

Phelim Rowe:

You're listening to this whilst you are on task.

Phelim Rowe:

So if that's you we're thinking of you, you're probably in the rain.

Phelim Rowe:

And, uh, we're, we're with you, uh, along your, your journey.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, in addition to that, what we've got coming up, well, I am excited to

Phelim Rowe:

be going out to Vegas, to the I P S B.

Phelim Rowe:

I know that our dear colleague and friend Elijah is doing the EP forum this year.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, that is the seventh and, uh, seventh December.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and, and so please do come say hello.

Phelim Rowe:

Be lovely to get a nice card of the BBA and Naba community

Phelim Rowe:

together at, uh, at the event.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, what, what, what else have we got?

Jon Moss:

Well, I just wanted to add one thing as soon as I, went on so much

Jon Moss:

about the newsletter and if I have wet anybody's appetite and they might be

Jon Moss:

wondering, well, okay, where do I find it?

Jon Moss:

The easiest way as a podcast listener to subscribe to the newsletter

Jon Moss:

is just to go to whatever you are listening to this podcast through.

Jon Moss:

Go to the show notes, scroll down, and you'll see a link to

Jon Moss:

the newsletter in the show notes.

Phelim Rowe:

Love it.

Phelim Rowe:

Yeah, keep, keep, uh, looking at the show notes, we do actually put, uh,

Phelim Rowe:

quite a lot of attention to them.

Phelim Rowe:

So, so click on that link, subscribe to the newsletter, and it's well, um, right.

Phelim Rowe:

So, uh, young professional success, uh, this is relevant for.

Phelim Rowe:

Or young professionals, seasoned professionals, trying to understand their

Phelim Rowe:

environment and how to integrate them.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, thank you very much Leo.

Phelim Rowe:

We're looking forward to seeing you back in the UK when you get back here.

Phelim Rowe:

And, uh, yeah, I've really, really enjoyed this.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, makes me reflect on myself as a young professional.

Phelim Rowe:

Maybe I still am, maybe I'm not, who knows?

Phelim Rowe:

And as John said, you know, keeping it young, , make sure.

Phelim Rowe:

You, you, keep your spirits up.

Phelim Rowe:

So from John and myself, this has been another fantastic edition