Navigating Pricing Conversations in Coaching

In this episode, the hosts delve into the challenging topic of discussing pricing with potential coaching clients. They share personal anecdotes and struggles with initially setting and communicating their rates, emphasizing the importance of being prepared for the money conversation. Starting out undercharging themselves due to a lack of confidence and experience, they highlight the journey to increasing their rates and the strategies to navigate client discussions about price. The discussion covers the significance of valuing coaching services appropriately, setting prices based on market rates and personal requirements, and maintaining ethical standards in sales tactics. Additionally, they stress the importance of integrity in coaching, avoiding desperation, and strategies for dealing with common objections regarding time and affordability during sales calls. The episode is a comprehensive guide for new coaches on pricing their services confidently and ethically, focusing on self-worth and the value provided to clients.

00:00 Opening Banter: The Money Question Dilemma

01:03 Navigating Pricing Conversations in Coaching

01:28 The Journey from Undercharging to Pricing Confidence

04:13 Identifying Your Target Audience and Pricing Accordingly

08:09 Overcoming Awkwardness in Money Conversations

13:41 Ethical Considerations in Pricing and Sales

14:57 Strategies for Handling Payment and Pricing Challenges

19:03 Maintaining Integrity and Ethical Sales Practices

24:34 Closing Thoughts: Charge Your Worth

John,

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John: Angie!

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Angie: how do you handle that bit

where you're speaking with a prospect

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and the money question comes up?

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John: Wait, are we supposed

to be charging them?

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Angie: John?

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No, how do you make it through the day?

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I don't even understand.

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John: Oh goodness, let's start the show!

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Angie: Yeah, shall we?

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So I think that one of the dreaded

conversations, like we get excited, right?

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We've been niching we've

launched our business.

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We get the call, the phone

rings, and now we have to have.

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this conversation.

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And in that conversation comes the

question, what is this going to cost me?

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So how do you handle that?

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John: Know, I used to fall apart

when anyone asked me that question.

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I was never prepared for it,

and the main reason was I didn't

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really know the answer myself.

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I hadn't actually figured out my

pricing when I first started, so

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I didn't know what to be charging.

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And I think I ended up settling

at something like 75 an hour,

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being in England as I was.

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Which now just seems so, so

pitiful, 75 an hour, really was

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I charging people 75 an hour?

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Oh my God.

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Uh, but yeah, at the time that made

sense for me, I didn't have that much

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confidence in my coaching skills.

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I was still learning, kind

of new to it and I knew other

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coaches who were charging that.

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So it seemed fairly reasonable.

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So yeah I did get to a point pretty

quick where for a while that worked,

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but I was definitely undercharging.

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So when I got to a point where I felt

like I should be charging more, that's

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maybe where I started to feel a lot more

awkward in that conversation of, I feel

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like I should be charging you maybe, 600

pounds for this couple of months, right?

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So that doesn't really work out like my

hourly rate is actually quite big for

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that If we want to look at it an hourly

thing But I stopped looking at it as an

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hourly rate and I think that did make

a bit of a difference for me but yeah

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being prepared to Field that question

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is really important and I wasn't

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Angie: I have to be honest, I know

and I you and I know this to this

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day that it always has been and it

probably always will be one of the

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challenges where we sell ourselves short.

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And you said it.

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I wasn't prepared.

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And I think to myself, how did we

because it's not a place of judgment.

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How did we get on a call?

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And not have built into our approach

that we're going to talk about money.

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And it took me some time to figure out

how to make that a conversation that was,

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it should A, be expected, but shouldn't

be the place where we gloss over and we

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go, okay, I'll do it for, 75 an hour.

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If that's what you think you're

worth, certainly do that.

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However, I believe that the

conversation about money begins with.

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Hey, John, how are you?

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Great meeting with you today, right?

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I believe it starts at the get go

and I have a process but I want

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to hear more about so how did

you Start to overcome that right?

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How did you a I don't know I think there's

people out there listening going and how

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do I know what I should what should or

could there's a difference Be charging.

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So what do you think as

a first step in that?

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John: If I was just starting out

as a coach these days, I think

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I would be realistically looking

at charging probably similarly to

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what the coaching organizations.

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Charge, which I reckon probably

like 150 bucks an hour somewhere

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in that range with their car.

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I'm not sure what their coaches take home

after that, but I think that's probably

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a fair range, especially if you are doing

a specific kind of coaching as well.

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So that maybe is a good thing

to have in mind right now.

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It's Start with what you believe

you can actually get from the

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people that you're approaching.

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There's some things to consider.

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Do the audience you target actually have

the means to pay for coaching services?

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Are they broke if they're low on

resources, financial resources,

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particularly, then yeah, that

money conversation is going to be

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a bit harder and a little more.

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A little more difficult than if you have

that money conversation with somebody who

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really has no major money concerns and

isn't broke and actually doing very well

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for themselves asking for A 1500 2000

bucks for a six month coaching program

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is nothing it's really easy that they by

I think yeah, no big decision Their only

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choice then is whether they feel that

you're going to be able to help them with

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what they've come to you To help them for

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Angie: Oh, that's exactly, that's

exactly the point, but go ahead.

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John: yeah, so You I take it this way

and this is again marketing advice,

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sales advice from people who I've been

learning from the industry of really

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anything like package wise, anything

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2000

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Angie: Yeah, I think.

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John: Is high level, more

significant investment.

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So if you are a coach, he's

maybe going to be charging more

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like 10, 000 for a six month.

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thing, then again, you have to be

targeting the people who firstly

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are going to be able to provide

value to that, and for who that's

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going to be a fairly easy decision.

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And that may be corporates as well,

where there's more money in the

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organization and more of a desire to

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Angie: sure.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I think we see this every day, right?

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If you're targeting an audience

that is let's just say at

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the college level, right?

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Yeah, colleges do have some

resources, but certainly

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not at the same level as some really

big global corporation, right?

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So obviously it's going to change.

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It's going to change.

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And I think, so I think

that one of the first

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best practices is to do your

research, see if you can, what

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the kind of, coaches that are

doing the same thing that you're

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doing, are actually charging so that

you at least have a baseline and.

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I think one of the pieces of mindset

that really screw us up is that

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we go, Oh, well, I don't know.

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I just started.

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This is my first client.

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I shouldn't be.

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I haven't earned the right to and my

answer to that, although I was that

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person, I felt like, well, who am I?

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Nobody knows Angie.

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Was okay, I'll charge 75, 80 and

that's where I started per hour.

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I am nowhere near that

now, not even close to it.

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Why?

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Because I've got 35

years of experience that

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gives me the right to now

say, I'm charging you this.

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And

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I have to say, if that person can't

afford that, then they're not my client,

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but that.

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doing the research, because here's

how I got it out of my head.

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You don't know, if you go onto a

surgery table if you're in the OR,

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you have no idea if that, if you are

that surgeon's first operation solo,

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or if you're their 2, 500th surgery.

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And they're not charging you differently.

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Everybody's getting paid the

same, even if it's the first one.

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So I think it's just the belief

in the fact that you've done the

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work to get where you are, even if

it is your first coaching session.

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That's the first thing.

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And piggybacking off of what I

was beginning to say earlier is the

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conversation about money truly begins

at the onset of that discovery call,

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triage call, whatever you call it, right?

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And it's connecting to the value.

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So maybe when you're having the

conversation with this person, you're

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asking them questions in such a

way that when you get to the money

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conversation, it almost sounds ridiculous

that they wouldn't want to pay you.

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So you can ask questions like,

what would bring you the most

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value from this experience?

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What would it cost you not to

go into coaching, To start using

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those dollars and cents terms.

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So that they're already making

a decision and saying, you know

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what, it doesn't make sense.

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That doesn't mean that they can't afford

you, but I think at the very beginning

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when you're listening and it's really

about them and you're trying to connect

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the dots, whether you're a good fit.

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I'm always curious what

is the benefit of this?

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So hey John, where's the

value for you in this?

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What would bring you the

most value from this?

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Experience.

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John: I, I feel like there are two.

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Elements that really cause the

awkwardness in the conversation.

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And and they come from you

as the coach being awkward.

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They all come from that.

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They're like, it's your awkwardness,

it's not the client, it's yours.

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And so one is, you're on a Hail Mary,

like you really need this client.

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You feel, you feel, like

desperate for money.

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I really need to get some clients.

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I've got bills to pay

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Angie: and they can smell it.

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, go

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John: I'm a mile away.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So the desperation comes across very

quickly and the awkwardness comes up

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as well, because you feel that if you

say the wrong price, they're gonna

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be like, Oh no, I can't afford that.

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And then you're in a position of, okay,

well, maybe I can do you a special deal

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and, and that puts you on the back foot.

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So, that, that is working against you.

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So if you're coming into

those conversations from that

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point, it's more difficult.

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But the other thing is If you if you

actually don't know really what you want

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to be charging for this if you haven't

figured that out and you're not really

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ready for that question you got to think

about a lot of things all in the heat

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of the moment so just being prepared

for that can make a big difference

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there are two objections you're most

likely to get in life on these calls

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from things and this is something we'll

probably do a bit of a deeper dive

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in another time but one of them is

time the other is I can't afford it.

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And you should also be prepared to ask,

answer that question rather than saying

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something like, Oh, maybe I can do you a

special deal to try and land the client.

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Maybe a better strategy would be to

think about how you could Reframe them on

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this so that they can make the decision

because realistically if they really

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want it It's like all right I guess this

I would maybe now say something like I

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guess this isn't a significant enough

problem for you that you're willing to

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invest the time and money To solve it.

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or perhaps you really just want a cheap

try and find a cheaper solution for this

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it puts them in a position where they

have to justify what they said because

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Nearly always those objections are just

Ways to say, Oh, I'm not sure about this.

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And so they're trying to hold back or

trying to get you to convince them.

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And it's how much would it be

worth to you to solve this problem?

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How much would you, how much would

you be willing to pay for this?

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Cause then you're going to get a sense

of what they were expecting to pay.

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And

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Angie: Yeah.

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John: it's worth doing that because

if they lowball you, he's Oh,

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there, there's no way I'd ever

do it for that, but good luck.

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'

It's been nice chatting with you, you know, but

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'

this is but this isn't but this isn't gonna be a good fit but then you can see

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if they do really want it and they're

just trying to lowball you They're

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gonna try and get you back into the

conversation so if you're not prepared to

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be able to Step away and say I know it's

okay if this doesn't fit if this isn't

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gonna work Then you're gonna struggle.

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So Even if you are in that position

right now where you're really

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desperate for clients, try and get

yourself into this space instead.

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It's gonna serve you much better in

those conversations and hopefully

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be a little bit of deodorant.

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On the smell of desperation.

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Angie: I think we still hear

that you and I all the time.

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It's like, you don't understand.

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I literally have clients come to me

going, Angie, you don't understand.

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I quit my day job or I lost my day job.

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I need this.

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And I'm like, okay, but if you think

that coming into it desperate and

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accepting whatever crumbs somebody

wants to offer you, and I don't want

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to sound indignant when I say that.

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Or that I have some, ego about it.

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It's

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not even about ego.

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It's that we're literally changing

lives and that's worth something.

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It is absolutely worth something.

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And and the minute you, like you said,

if you spray yourself, if you arm

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yourself differently, You can be having

a different conversation, but if you

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come into the conversation, wishy washy

and going, well, I guess I could, and

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I'm not saying I've never done that.

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And I'm not saying that I

wouldn't still do that, but

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you know what was interesting?

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This is something that

I wanted to point to.

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And this is about me as a coach ethically.

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So I have a fee that I charge pretty

standard for my one to one clients.

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I had a conversation with a potential

new client at Discovery Call and in

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the call they were sharing part of

their major issues was like a divorce

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and the money and what do we do while

everything's being ironed out, but I

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need this and I made the offer slightly

lower than what I normally charge.

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And they were like, thank you yes.

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And it wasn't so substantial

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that I felt like I was giving

away the cookie for free.

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But this is what happened

for me ethically.

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I turned around and said, how do I

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Have the nerve to charge this much

just because somebody can afford it.

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But now I've made this exception

because this person's having

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a real hardship in their life.

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And I actually reduced my rates.

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Just all around because in my head it

just didn't feel right that I felt

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like I was taking advantage So from

that point forward, that's what I did.

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I was like, you know what?

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I think this is a more Effective

way and actually be honest.

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I got a lot more yeses in the space that

I was focusing on at the time I think that

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it's becoming comfortable with the fact

that you have a service and that you have

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expertise that stands behind that service.

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1000%.

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John: no, if you are ultimately, but

if you set a price, you're pretty

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confident about it and you're not

getting a lot of yeses, then that

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could be an indication that it's worth

taking a look at your pricing and

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maybe there's making some adjustments.

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But again, you also have to make sure

it's going to be worthwhile for you.

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There, there is that balance

of, yeah, we want to make

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things affordable for clients.

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Most of us do, or maybe you do

want to do exclusively hiring

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and coaching with people who.

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absolutely can't afford it and you maybe

are not going to make exceptions for that.

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Have things ready.

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I always will have

referrals ready as I okay.

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So I appreciate having

some challenges right now.

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I might not be the right person for you

to work with right now because my rates

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are what my rates are what they are.

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But let me refer you to somebody who I

think might be able to do work with you

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in the ballpark that you're looking for.

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That can work really well, and

it's still serving the client.

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Would you like to look

at some payment options?

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Now, say what you will

about payment options.

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I don't love them, but most of us have

to do them, especially if we are in

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any kind of high end service, if we

have high value clients, we may have

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to look at that from time to time.

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And they, to me, they always

have to be paid in advance.

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No, no coaching happens.

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Nothing happens if you haven't met

your payments, because the reality

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is, If they miss payments, the cost

of going after them is not worth it

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for you in terms of time and money.

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The

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cost of going after that

money is not worth it for you.

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I've had recalcitrant clients before.

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Gosh, that's hard to say.

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Who I've tried to get money

from and it's a nightmare.

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They just ended up ghosting you.

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And

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it's just not worth the bother.

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Always up from

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Angie: Always.

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Absolutely.

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I definitely I don't do

anything without that.

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And that's, I don't think I ever did.

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That wasn't something that

I had to learn the hard way.

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Because I watched other

companies go through that.

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Like, sorry, by the way, so and so

doesn't get any more coaching because

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they're behind on their payments.

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I just think it does make, I think

payment options can make it more palatable

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because I don't care how much money

you have or how much money you earn.

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If you say to somebody, okay, that's

going to be 8, 000 today, some people

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Even if they have the money go ooh,

really that's just a lot all at one

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time it all of a sudden hits them It's

8, 000 or whatever it is It could be a

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thousand dollars and it could still hit

them because it's that point of sale

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moment where they're like, oh Oh, I

have to oh, I have to how do I do this?

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So I think it's important So it's really

becoming comfortable with what you and

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I One thing I wanted to say that you

touched upon earlier is the need piece.

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Part of the planning behind this

is also, what do I need to make?

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Because the truth is, if I do the

research, and in the niche that

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I'm planning on working in, I

can't make what I need to make.

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I'm setting myself up for failure.

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Right?

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If I need to make, because I have

this lifestyle or house payments

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or car payments and the like,

and I need to make 150, 000 a

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year, that really is going to be an

indicator as to how I need to charge.

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But just because you might need

to charge doesn't mean that's

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the problem of the client.

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Doesn't mean that the market can bear,

if you will, what you need to charge.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Like

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That That can be a disconnect for

people well, I needed to make 150,

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000 and that means that I have to

make, 700 a session with people.

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That's big.

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John: It may be that if you have a, if

you have a heart to help more people

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and make that more affordable for them,

then you may want to look at group

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coaching options, which is certainly

something I've done in the past.

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although now for group, I'd probably

charge as much as I would for one-to-one

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So,

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um, 'cause I think that there's also

a lot of value in the group, and also

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you might want to look at perhaps

having a mini course or program that's

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gonna deliver some value to them.

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Doesn't have to keep leveraging your time.

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They can afford it and make a one off

payment or even a couple of payments

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if they have to, but you're making

something more accessible to them and

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putting more of a premium on your time.

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So there are options that you can look at.

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I've worked in high end

events and high ticket.

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Coaching and courses sales and one thing

I say I've seen a lot of people being

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pressured into buying courses and programs

upwards of ten thousand pounds dollars

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euros, whichever currency I've seen it

all when they don't have that money, they

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just don't have it And of course this does

cause problems for those companies when

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they're ultimately, some people are going

to fall short of actually being able to

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pay them and often will just fall off.

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But they still usually end up better off

financially from what they can get from

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those people and have them fall away and

not even have to deliver on the, a lot

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of the products and service for them.

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But it's not a nice position to

be in as a customer, at least

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a nasty taste in your mouth.

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If someone's like taking your money

and you're not in a position to

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be able to follow through, but you

felt like you got pushed or maybe

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even duped somewhat into making

that purchase, I will, I will never.

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Yeah.

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I will never, I will never

push someone into a sale that I

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don't believe they can afford.

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And very often they will tell you, they

will tell you, I can't afford that.

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I will say this may not be

right for you right now then.

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Because I don't want to put you in a

position where you're not going to be

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able to feed yourself or your family.

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Or afford you afford your living costs.

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That's not going to be on me So perhaps

we have to hold off a bit on this.

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Here's here's what I recommend Here's

what I would recommend in the meantime

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that i'd much rather have that from my

own ethical perspective I think that's

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a much nicer conversation to have if you

are a bit more of a sort of Grab their

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balls and crush them kind of salesperson.

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You're loving my imagery today, right?

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Angie: It's out there.

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I'm telling

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John: it's it's out there, if you're a

bit, if you care a bit less about them and

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the effect that this might have on their

life, you might just go for that anyway.

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But to me, that's a little

bit it's low empathy.

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It's a

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little sociopathic.

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I would steer clear of it.

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I've

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Angie: No.

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And you know what?

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I think that that is very true.

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I have, you said it and I have literally

said to people, listen, if this is taking

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food off your table, today is not the

day for us because I could not coach you.

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I don't like convince you that,

oh, well, you know what though?

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You probably end up making

more if we coach together cause

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you'll be so much better now.

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Absolutely not.

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I cannot live with myself.

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I think that was what I was explaining

to with my little ethical question.

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A few years ago with my pricing

it just made more sense.

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And I think that I felt better about

it and it was just easier for people.

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I think you have to stay true to what

it is you're really trying to do.

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And I, like yourself have been, I have

experienced never, I never partook

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in any of it, but I've experienced.

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Myself, if I went to some kind of a

seminar where I'm like, I'm here, I

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want to learn, because I'm a coach, I

love doing those events, going to those

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events, seeing what's happening now,

and then the calls start coming in.

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And everybody is literally, it's

like, burn them and turn them, burn

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them and turn them like, they just,

you can do this, you showed up,

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that means that you need this, and

really trying to, like, erode me.

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And

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Even and I, and as a trained coach,

I'm like, listen to this shit.

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They are trying, they're not trying

to coach, they just want my money.

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Oh, that's really bad for the industry.

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It's really why some people feel like.

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We're not we just get on the phone,

tell people what to do, and that's not

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what you do when you're a real coach.

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So, you know what?

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I think having those experiences turned

me off and said, I will never do that.

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John: It's unethical and I've said

before, if it feels sleazy, it probably

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is.

411

So steer clear of it.

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We know that our listener,

our listener is, and I, our

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listener is ethical, aren't you?

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You're wherever you are listening

to this you're an ethical person.

415

If you're not, you're

listening to the wrong show.

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Because we know who our listeners

are and our listeners care.

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Uh, and so we know that you do.

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Beep.

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Treat people with kindness and

respect and dignity and don't

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try and put them into positions

where they may well come unglued.

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I've seen it happen in coaching.

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They will blame you.

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You may well get some very nasty

emails and messages about it.

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It's unpleasant.

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It's messy and it's unpleasant

to have to deal with and you

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will not feel good about it.

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Angie: Hey, and you know what?

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I was just going to make a joke, and

it probably isn't even that funny, but

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like when I started out, when I screwed

up, there was no place for anybody to

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put it and Be really careful, because

the minute somebody feels like They

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are being treated unfairly in some way.

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Everybody's going to know.

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One post and then everybody

knows it's out there.

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And it's not to say do it because of that.

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I'm, I don't want to say that, but

be really careful about that because.

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Your reputation, one bad experience

can really deteriorate or diminish

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really the reputation that you've

taken so much time to build up.

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And it really does come around

sometimes when people don't feel like

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the deliverable met the expectation.

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And that's always tied to the money.

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That's always tied to the money.

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I spent four thousand dollars and

I didn't get what I was promised

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or whatever So maybe we'll have a

conversation later on too about how we

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handle like giving an incentive, right?

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Are there do we put out

offerings or specials and then?

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Refunds what happens when if

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if somebody yeah says I want my money back

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That's a big

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John: well, one that is already on

the list is going to be managing

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your online reputation as well.

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And certainly I've got some

good stories about that.

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So I think we'll have fun

with those conversations.

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But if you gain anything from

this, know what you want to charge,

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charge, charge what you're worth.

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Get a good base rate in the industry.

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Don't rip people off, be

ethical, live in your integrity.

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It's really all you've got.

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Once you lose your integrity,

you're never going to get it back.

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Not really.

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Yeah, next time we'll be back with more

conversation about how to help you have a

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thriving coaching business, but until then

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Angie: charge your worth and be confident

about that know why you're worth that.

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John: See you next time.

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Angie: Bye.

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Bye