How can we see our jobs—whether dream roles or day-to-day grinds—as acts of worship, instead of just a means to a paycheck? In this episode, Pastor Ken sits down with Pastor Phil to dive into the topic of professional health.

Why does our work matter to God? Join us as we explore biblical perspectives on calling, identity, work-life balance, and practical ways to bring our faith into the workplace. Whether you love your job or feel stuck, this conversation will inspire you to find purpose in the 90,000 hours the average person spends at work.

🎧 What You’ll Hear About:

1. Why work is a blessing and not a curse
2. Seeing your workplace as a mission field
3. Finding balance in busy seasons and avoiding burnout
4. Shifting your mindset from “career-first” to “God-first”
5. Turning everyday tasks into acts of worship

If you find this conversation helpful, like, subscribe, and share it with someone who might need a new perspective on work!

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Please leave a comment or reach out to us directly—we’re here for you!

Looking for the transcript or resources to dive deeper into our conversation today? faith-for-real-life.captivate.fm

- All right.

Welcome back to the podcast.

We're in a series called New Year New You,

where we're looking at

five elements of health.

And today we're talking

about professional health.

We're talking about your

work and your work matters.

Your work matters to God.

Uh, work doesn't matter just

because of what it produces,

but just work in of itself is a blessing.

You know, work is something

that God has given to humans,

uh, before the fall.

It's not a result of the fall.

It's not a part of the curse.

It's actually a blessing

that God has given to Adam

to govern the world.

And so we wanna talk about what

that looks like to see, uh,

our work life in a biblical lens.

And so we have Pastor Phil,

our lead pastor here at Hope

City, and we have you on,

because as we're thinking

through who we can bring on,

your name came to mind.

And the reason why is, uh,

you lead a large team. Yeah.

You lead a large, uh,

I don't love this term,

but organization in that sense is church.

It is an organization in that sense. Sure.

And you do it not only

personally with health,

but you have led, um,

us into greater health as an organization.

And it's been a lot of

fun working with you.

So I see you as a great leader.

And so you are an expert for today. Well,

- That's really kind , and

it's really fun to be with you.

Yeah. And so thanks for that.

- So as our lead pastor, as

our lead teacher, you decide

what we talk about on the weekends.

Right? Okay. That's not

something that, you know,

you chat GPT right?

Right. You go away, you spend

time in prayer. Exactly.

Decide what we're gonna

talk about on the weekends.

And so you decided that

what would be a good thing

to talk about was this idea professional.

I've never heard a message

on professional health. Okay.

Yeah. I've never really

heard a message on, on work.

I have my own kind of

theological ideas. Sure.

But I've never heard one preach.

And so why did you decide to include

that in our sermon schedule this year?

- Yeah, that's, that's

an interesting question.

I, um, I remember reading

a number of years ago

that we spend on average 90,000 hours

of our lifetime at our jobs.

So when you consider

that, that's like most

of our life actually. Right. And so,

- Have you been alive

for 90,000 hours? No.

- I don't know. I actually, I

don't know. I haven't figured

- That out.

Do the math on that. Yeah.

Someone did the math on that.

He's 40, right?

- Yeah, exactly.

- Carry the one, uh,

- Carry the 10 actually .

Um, that said, I was like,

90,000 hours is most of our life,

and we want our lives to follow Jesus.

And so if we're spending most

of our life in one segment,

obviously there's gonna be a component

of following Jesus in that.

And so then you look at what

scripture says about work.

I kind of chuckled in your intro

when you said, it's not a curse.

'cause I think a lot of us just

wish we didn't have to work.

Yeah. Right. But actually,

that's part of God's design.

Yeah. There's 859 scripture

verses that allude to

- Work.

That's more than faith. Yeah. That's

- More, yeah.

Yeah. It's massive. Right. So,

so when you just take into

account, God talks about this

frequently, often he initiated from the

beginning of time through Adam.

Yeah. And yeah, that's our responsibility,

but it's also how we

gain meaning, purpose,

and just connection with

the Lord in our life.

- Yeah. So either we think

that work is a curse,

or maybe the other end of

that spectrum is we love it

so much that we become obsessed

with it, and it becomes an idol.

Right. And it becomes a curse. Yeah.

Right. So, yeah. That's, that's

- A good way to put it.

- We, we want, we want

something else first.

We want, we wanna create a

biblically healthy picture of

what work is so that we can

receive it as a blessing.

So you've been working for decades. Yes.

So you've had lots

of different roles in your

life, not just this one.

Uh, so what is maybe something

that has been impactful

for you, um, through your

working life that has just sort

of shaped your theology

and even your practice when it comes

to this idea of professional health?

- Yeah. I think right from

the beginning in my life,

I was modeled through my

father just a hard work ethic.

Um, recognizing for me

that work is something you

have to do with your life.

I mean, if you wanna make

money, you gotta work. Right?

Right. The Bible talks about that.

Proverbs talks about

that, uh, the lazy don't,

and for me, it was always

something that, okay, this is

what you have to do in life.

And then it's like when you

start aligning it with your

belief system, you actually

start to find value, purpose,

and direction in work, in

labor, toil, those are all

terms that scripture uses.

And, and so I think a big

factor in that is wanting

to follow Jesus with my

whole heart and life.

And then saying, okay, no,

but that means this also

this 90,000 hours component

of my potential life mm-hmm .

Lines up with wanting to

follow Jesus in that. Yeah.

- So I've seen, and I've

noticed it's very hard not

to notice this when you

walk into your office.

Yeah. You have all these

skateboards on your wall. Yeah.

And one of your skateboards

has printed on at

Colossians 3 23.

Yes. Uh, that's the right

reference. I believe it is. Yeah.

You know, whatever you do, uh, work

as if unto the Lord and

not to human masters.

Right. That's, that's the quote there.

And so that's a pretty

powerful, um, idea. Yeah.

That whatever you do doesn't

really matter what you do.

Right. A dream job or, you

know, the job that you hate work

as if unto the Lord.

How do you see that play

out in your life on the day

to day? Just the grind.

- Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a mindset

and really, what do you gotta go down to?

And it's talks about it in

First Corinthians as well.

It says, whatever you do, due

to the glory of God mm-hmm .

And so it's this, whatever, you

do those three words, right?

Mm-hmm . That's really

the clincher of this.

And it's, oh, dude, I've

had some terrible jobs in

- My life.

Okay. What's the worst

job you've ever had?

- Um, cleaning up after Seward.

Oh, you know, sewer back up.

Oh, yeah. That's going into

a hole knee deep. Like Yeah.

Like, it's been bad. You're like, Jesus,

do you even love me today?

Yeah. Yeah. You know,

that, that type of idea.

I've had some pretty bad jobs. Yeah.

And, um, it's really saying I

- Have to do that after

my kids sometimes .

And it's bad enough. I

don't get paid for it, but

- Yeah, there you go.

Uh, whatever you do.

So it's, it's aligning

yourself with that. Okay.

It's not necessarily about

what you're doing mm-hmm .

It's whatever you're doing. Yeah.

And, and learning to

do that for God's glory

- In maybe in context of that sewer job,

you could say whatever you do,

do

- .

Oh God, . Oh,

- I was just waiting for that.

I was holding onto that.

I was trying to be patient

for you to finish your sentence.

Oh, yes. Okay. So we have

some people who are listening,

watching today, and I just recovered from

that fairly quickly. That did

- Joke.

Anyway, we're going to this. Yeah, I got

- It.

We have some people, uh, who

are watching and listening,

and they have seen kind of work as a drag.

It has been a curse.

Not something that they, uh,

see as an act of worship.

Right. Because that's one of the Yeah.

One of the biblical idea

of work, biblical ideas of

of work is that it is worship.

And so here they are, and

they're not enjoying their life.

You know, they have to work the 40 hours

or, or more than that.

So they're spending all this time there.

And so what would you say to

somebody who's, who's doing

that right now, going through the grind,

and they just feel like it doesn't matter.

They're going unnoticed.

You know, they just, they

just don't like their life

because work is such a big part of that.

Right.

- I think one, everyone's

gonna have seasons

of when you feel like

your job isn't necessarily

fulfilling you to the way

that you hoped it would.

Mm-hmm . Um, I'll talk

about that in a little bit.

'cause I think there's,

there's a misconception

that we've bought into for our

lives career or calling actually.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I

think you're gonna have seasons

where, whether it's the job

that you've always dreamed

you'd have feels hollow,

or whether you're in a job

that you never wanted,

but you have to work.

'cause it brings the means to the end.

Um, it's in those times where

I think it just has to wrap

around your head that my life in

and everything I do is

for the glory of God.

And so that means

getting up, going to work

and doing what I'm paid to do.

Mm-hmm . Uh, because

someone's actually giving you

money to do what you're doing.

So do it. Well do it. Right.

Like, I still believe,

whether you're into it

or not, Christians should

be the best employers

or employees.

Yeah. A hundred percent.

Because of who we are in Jesus.

Um, so I just feel like if you're going

through a tough season, you

have to align yourself again

with the reason of why your

life exists in the first place.

And that is to bring glory to God. Yeah.

And so just remind yourself, wake up today

and say, yes, I'm going

into this job place,

but my goal today is to

bring glory to God. Sure.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- I love that idea. So for

those listening, you know,

you're, you're listening

to this on your way

to work this morning, or,

you know, contemplating your,

you know, the day that you just worked,

what a wonderful thing to

sort of tattoo on your heart.

Yeah. Right. For that next work day.

Whatever I'm doing today,

I'm doing this as worship.

Worship just isn't coming

on Sunday. Right. Right.

Um, it it's way more than that.

It's a life of worship. Totally.

- And I love, I love how

scripture talks about Ken, the,

the glory to God.

Do it for the glory of God.

Right. It's not for our glory.

Yeah. And that's, that's

a big difference too,

because we want, and we should

get personal satisfaction out

of our work, but that's

not the main goal of

- It.

Right. Not to get a promotion. Right.

Not to get that raise Exactly. Right. To,

- It's for God's glory.

I I, um, I actually wrote

this down in my, in my phone.

I want to share this with

you. The, the primary nature

of our calling is not about what you do,

but how you do whatever

it is you do. Okay.

- Can you, can you work that out a little

- Bit?

Yeah. So I think a lot

of times we believe our

calling is a specific job.

- Okay.

- I would say our calling

isn't necessarily a specific job.

It's God specific.

- Okay.

- So, um, it's not about what you do, it's

how you do what you do.

Yeah. Because how you do what

you do, does it bring glory

to God or does it not?

And so I actually think,

hey, if you're called

to be a pastor, like we are great.

But I don't think if you

went to another church

that God would lose, use you any less.

Mm-hmm . Right. You

would do it to the glory

of God in every context that you're in.

Um, and there are specific lanes

and there are specific moments

where God can shine a light

and say, yes, this is the one

thing you need to do right now.

But a lot of times in

careers, people have choices.

And so in those choices,

whatever you do, it's not necessary.

Your calling that matters most

to God, I think it matters most

- To us. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The

- Specific thing.

But what matters most to God

is, I don't care what you do,

bring glory to me through that.

- I think of the Apostle

Paul in Acts where he is,

I believe on a second missionary journey,

and it almost just seems

like he's just going

where he thinks is a good call.

Yeah. Because he wants

to fulfill his mission

to the Gentiles to bring

the good news of Christ.

And so he goes off to Bethia,

then he goes off to TRO as,

and he's like, but we got stopped there.

And then I had a dream and

God called me over here.

And this idea of, it's not so specific,

but it's this, you know, calling is this

sort of eight lane highway.

Yeah. We're just kind of

going in the direction. Yeah.

And God just kind of guides us.

And so it's this idea of calling, it is a,

it is a biblical idea.

It is a New Testament idea.

Um, but the primary way

that the New Testament

authors talk about calling

primarily is actually doesn't

have to do with our work.

It has to do with, um,

relationship. Right. Right.

Our primary calling is

to live a life worthy unto Jesus Christ.

And you can do that wherever you are,

which ties back into the

Colossians three, whatever you do.

Right. Right. So you can

live out your calling outside

of your dream job.

Right. Let's say, or that job

that you maybe just feel like you're the,

the key to the whole for Right.

Just so that perfect fit.

- That's exactly it. It, the,

the word vacation actually

comes from a Latin word

that means invitation.

And I thought that was kind

of interesting. Mm-hmm .

Because I think scripturally

God gives us an invitation

to join him wherever it

is that we can go Yeah.

And step into that and

then bring glory to him.

- So I was, I wasn't gonna pull this out,

but , I was studying

the idea of calling, uh,

before for, for a lesson I was teaching.

And it is the word clay tos,

which is invitation. Yeah.

Calling is that, you're so

interesting. You're invited Yeah.

Into what God is. Right.

Is calling you into, bringing you

into. So, yeah. Fascinating.

- Yeah. It's actually cool, isn't it?

- So maybe going back to

this, whatever you do,

there is this idea of, of a dream job,

and maybe it's a dream job

myth, whatever it might be.

Um, but we tend to, there's

like this gravitational pull

that we often get our identity mm-hmm .

From what we do. Right. The first time

that we meet somebody, right.

What's one of the very, you know,

top three questions we ask them Totally.

- What do you do?

- What do you do? And that tends

to tell us a lot about that person.

Right. And so we rightly

or wrongly get our identity from work.

And so there is this inner struggle

to extract meaning from what we do.

And so if we're doing something

that either we don't enjoy

or we're doing something that

we don't think makes a big

difference, there is just that struggle.

Right. Which again, ties

into that Colossians three.

I mean, that, that would solve

that incentive no matter what it is.

But why do you think it is

that we get our identity

from what we do?

- Well, so much of our

lives is tied to what we do.

And so there's a natural correlation

between our job and our identity.

It just is. Yeah. I mean,

you're a pastor. I'm a pastor.

There's a natural identity.

I was just out for

lunch today before this,

and the waiter said, so what do you do?

I said, I work at a church. And he's like,

so are you a pastor?

I'm like, yeah. He's

like, what do pastors do?

You know, that's great

question. It's that, it's

that whole idea there.

But we get our identity from that.

But scripture doesn't tell

us to get our identity Right.

From what we do.

Scripture tells us to get our

identity from who God is Yeah.

Inside of us. Right. Right.

And who we are. Yeah. In

- Christ who we are.

Yeah. Maybe we're in Christ.

I've heard, uh, someone say,

I don't remember what pastor, um,

but he was talking about

identity, um, as being, you know,

we'd say as a child of God.

Yeah. Which is kind of the same idea.

We're talking about whose we are.

And the reason why that's so important

to get your identity

is that's the one thing

that can never be taken away.

Mm-hmm. You know, um, people

get fired. Right. Right.

From jobs. People lose jobs,

people grow out of jobs,

or people aren't interested.

Right. That can get taken away.

Or maybe athletics thing, you

get injured. Right. Right.

If you put your identity

as a basketball player,

that could get taken away.

You know, you find your

identity in all these things,

but they're just so, so shaky.

Right. Totally. And

so when you put your

identity in those things,

and they're taken away,

and often they are sometime in our life,

it's this crisis moment, who am I?

And you actually don't know that. Totally.

'cause you put your

identity in the wrong thing.

And so those who can put their

identity in being in Christ,

let's say, hidden in Christ, or a child

or daughter, uh, a child

or a of Christ that is so

strong, it's so foundational

that it's like that

that can't be taken away

from you. No kidding.

- It's - A beautiful thing.

Right. Yeah. Love that.

- That that's a good point. I love that.

- So what advice, again,

on this dream job,

- Can, can I build on that? You could do

- It.

You're the boss, man. You

could do whatever you want.

- Like, like I really like

that idea about identity,

and I think it goes back to the heart of

what we think we're called to do.

The heart of our calling is not

to something, but to someone.

Yeah. And so I would just

say to people, you are called

to live for God.

You aren't called necessarily

to be in the lane, you're in, you are.

But there's this greater

thing, right? Mm-hmm . Yeah.

And so just always remembering

that like I know at a young

age, I wrap my head around

that Colossians 3 23 verse.

Um, because it says work as

if you're working to the Lord.

Yeah. Or for the Lord, rather.

Um, I wrap my head around

this idea that no matter

what circumstance I find myself in,

God is my boss 'cause

I'm working for the Lord.

Mm-hmm . And that's kinda weird.

And it's, yet it's kind of invigorating

because you want to make God proud.

Right? Right. And so

even just going into some

of the worst jobs that I

had, even as a young adult,

I remember saying, well,

I'm doing this for the Lord.

Right. And so if you can cross that kind

of mental hurdle, we all have bosses

and maybe some people have

bosses that are terrible.

'cause that's a fact. Um, and that's hard.

It makes your workplace just

a difficult place to be.

But yet, in the midst

of this, if you go back

to this Colossians passage,

Paul was actually writing

that to slaves.

Right. Okay. So contacts, that's

a terrible job. Sure. Okay.

And he's saying do that as unto God. Yeah.

So that means I don't care

if you're in a terrible job,

do it as unto God.

'cause he, you can't get

any lower than that. Yeah.

- So what advice, maybe in particular,

really practically Okay.

- Would

- You give to somebody

who has hit the ceiling with their job?

They're just like, they've

hit a wall profession. Sure.

They're like, I don't see a

future for me in this place.

Yeah. Or I just don't see

what's on the horizon.

Or maybe the idea of going back to school,

there's all these just challenges,

but they just feel like I'm up

against a wall professionally.

What would you give, uh, them

as, as just an encouragement?

- I'd say, don't feel like you have

to lock in at a job forever.

That's not what this is saying.

I would also say then,

if you're unfulfilled,

because job does need

to bring some personal fulfillment to you.

Sure. Um, look for it. Search for it. Go.

If you think, Hey, I need to

take more schooling, do so.

But I'd give the caveat at

and say, wherever you are, be all in

until you're not there anymore.

And what I mean by all in,

it's doing this for the glory

of God because that's

just what Christians do.

Yeah. Or are supposed to do, actually. And

- Maybe another side of that, 'cause one

of the unique things about

professional health and working

and being a Christian is

that it is more than a job.

Yes. We've already kind of

talked about that. It's worth it.

Sure. But we also have this

idea of mission field mission

- Yeah.

- That we're not at a place

just to punch the clock,

you know, get a paycheck and

then live for the weekend.

- A hundred percent.

- You know,

it's, it's much bigger than that.

That, that God even

directs our steps. Yeah.

For those who are walking

in step with him, uh,

to particular places for

particular ti uh, times,

but primarily for particular people.

Mm-hmm . Right. There's people at at their

work that you'll never reach.

That I will never reach. Right. Right.

That no one that they would,

they're the only opportunity

to reach those people.

Yeah. And I heard a pastor say

that your work matters to God

because the people at

your work matter to God.

Mm-hmm . I thought, oh, that was

actually, that actually is true.

Yeah. And so what do you

think about that idea of work

as a mission field?

- I think it's biblical. I think you have

to wrap your head around that concept.

So you're not just going into do the job

that they pay you to do, whatever that is.

You're going into be salt to be light,

to be Jesus to the world.

And for many of these people,

before they ever step into,

if they step into a church,

they are watching you.

They are watching, Hey,

if this person claims

to be a Christian, I wanna

see how they respond.

I wanna see how they act. I

want to see how they react.

I wanna see what they say.

And so, I mean, there's

a, there's a little bit

of a accountability check-in

for us in that meaning, Hey,

if I tell people I'm a Christian

Yeah. I better live it. Right.

- Some of my, some of my wife's worst

people would know who she is.

So you gotta be careful, . But some

of the most challenging

people that she's worked

with have been Christians. Yeah.

- That's interesting. Right.

- Yeah.

And that's, it's unfortunate. Yeah.

It's such an opportunity. Matthew's a miss

- In my

- Mind.

Matthew five 16, you know, let

your light shine for all man.

They may see your good deeds

and praise your father heaven.

There's some, there's a connection

that can be made when people

see your life directly to God,

is what Jesus is saying.

So that's a missed opportunity. It

- Is huge.

I think, I think knowing

you're on mission makes any job

how much you love it or not purposeful.

Right. Because you're

viewing your life in light

of eternity, not in light of,

you know, the next decade.

Yeah. And, uh, so the challenge

I would say to people is,

go, go to work prayerfully.

Yeah. God, how will you use me today?

Now, obviously, you

can't sit there and talk

or proselytize the gospel all day long. ,

- Because you wanna have a job.

- Yeah. You're not gonna

- Have

a job on your, on your last day. You just

- Do it.

That's exactly. Just go for

it. I quit. But here's this.

Why do it all day, . Um, but

there are actions many times.

- Or if you're part of a union,

you could probably do that.

- Maybe pretty hard

- To get fired. Yeah.

- Anyway. But actions speak a

lot louder than words. Yeah.

Right. And so how you

respond, what do you do?

I even think many times

people don't have others

who just listen to them.

And I have found for being a salt

and light in the world,

learn to ask good questions.

'cause most people

respond to, Hey, can you,

can you tell me what's, what's

been the hardest thing you've

faced in the last three months?

Or how do you feel about

that right now? Mm-hmm .

People like to express that and talk that.

And all of a sudden you've

just gone next level.

'cause you're not

talking about the Oilers.

You're not talking about,

I don't know the next best restaurant

to go have sushi, whatever.

Right. Right. Yeah. And they're like,

that person's different at work.

Right. They listen,

they ask good questions.

Sometimes I think Christians

think we always have to tell.

Right. Okay. I better tell

'em about my faith in Jesus.

I better slip in that God

loves you and God's present.

There's moments and times for

that. There's no question.

Okay. But I think how you start

opening the door to mission

and work is you listen and

you ask good questions.

- Yeah. I'm, I'm thinking,

well, I have lots of things in my head.

I want to, I want to

dialog with you on that.

Um, I, I, I moonlighted

as a fitness instructor

for the past five years.

Right. Okay. Just, and the only reason,

- And I did know that, that, and

- Keith didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. So

- It's not like people are like, really?

Is this a surprise for you, Phil? No,

- I know.

That's a strange way to say that.

But I did that and it

wasn't for the money.

'cause it was less than minimum

wage when you add it all in.

So it was not that. Yeah.

It was because I'm a preacher here

and I need to know, I

need to have a heartbeat

of what's going on in people's

lives who don't know Christ.

And that's something that

you have exemplified to our,

our team and our pastoral

staff in particular.

You need to plant yourself

and be present with people

who don't know the Lord.

Right. How could you know

what they're going through?

How could you know how

to, to speak the language

of people if you're not really with them?

And so I did that.

And I remember when I

started, I started first sort

of going in as an athlete at this place.

And, um, you get made fun of

'cause you're a Christian.

And it was fine. 'cause I'm like a grown

man and I don't care about that.

Right. Right. In in that

sense, people kind of mock you

and, um, you know, instead

of they're like, Hey,

if you wanna get a good score today,

it's a sport called CrossFit.

Like why don't you just

pray about it? Right.

It's like, oh, it's so funny. Right,

- Right.

- Um, and at first it was kind of a joke.

And now it seems, you

know, seven years later,

it's taking some time Yeah.

That you become a spiritual

authority in the gym. Right.

You know, not in the same

way that you might be at a,

at a church, but in,

but in an increased way.

And it was through time. Mm-hmm .

It was through listening,

asking good questions.

But I remember before no one

just really thinks about it.

And then what happens is

people are waiting after class

and like, Hey, can I talk

to you about something?

Hey, what's going on? My mom died

and I don't really, you

know, whatever it might be.

Or, Hey, listen, we're getting married.

Would you kinda do our,

our wedding? Yeah. Right.

I have someone I'm lined

up to do their funeral when

they die, which is just hilarious.

And you start to see inroads. Right.

Just through, through presence. Right.

And not being a jerk . Right.

- A hundred percent. But there

- Was this aspect, and,

and you alluded to it, you know, it's St.

Francis of Assisi.

He said that famous line,

um, you know, preach often

and if necessary use words.

Right. And I think

there's a principle there.

I think the other principle

there is people might just think

you're a, a nice person mm-hmm .

Right. And so you I would like

to say, you know, you know,

preach often and sometimes it's gonna

be necessary to use words.

Yeah. So people kind of,

'cause there'll be people

who may be at their workplace

for a decade or 15 years

or 20 years and people

around them might not

even know they're a Christian.

Right. Right, right. Um, at

least not in a cultural sense.

Like, like, like, oh no,

I'm this, I'm living this,

I'm breathing this, like my weak.

So I think that's sort of

an important part as well.

So what encouragement

or advice would you give

to somebody who's been at a

workplace for a while and

maybe they're listening to this

and God's speaking to them and

they're just like, ah, man,

this, this is a mission field.

Right? Mm-hmm . I'm missing

it. Mm-hmm . I need to start.

Right. What advice would you give

- Them?

Yeah. I would just say

pray. Pray simple. Yeah.

Every day, God gimme an opportunity

to see how you can use me.

Yeah. Uh, when we're open

to the spirits leading,

when we ask God to provide

or give us opportunities, he always does.

And so I would just

encourage them to pray if,

if they feel like they have,

you know, you talk about being

at a workplace for a decade

and no one knows you're a Christian.

That's a reality for some people.

Um, I would just say, you

don't have to come out

and wear a t-shirt tomorrow.

Uh, but I would say, you

know, there's an element

where you can start bringing

that into conversation

with your coworkers.

Yeah. Whether it's, Hey, how

was your weekend? It was great.

I was at church. Or, you

know, little things like that.

Or if someone is facing an

issue, I know what works well

with my non-Christian

friends is number one,

you ask 'em about it and then I just say,

just know I'm praying for you.

Um, texts saying, Hey,

I'm praying for you.

Most people don't go,

don't do that. Yeah. Right.

Most people are like, really?

Okay, cool. Thanks. Yeah.

Um, those are little ways

to start being on mission

to start actually seeing

yourself as called by God

to make influence and

impact to the context

where you're in right now. Mm-hmm.

- Yeah. Yeah. And even

I think that's, I think

that's the most practical.

It's not, yeah. It's not

something like, ah, just pray.

It's like, no, no. Like

that will, number one,

it will stoke your heart a

new passion for people. Well, that's it.

- Yeah.

- But it also, I just sense

that God would honor that.

That they'll just be these

windows that you'll need

that 10 seconds of insane courage.

Right, right. To say something. Right.

But that idea of, Hey, you

know, I'm praying for you,

or Hey, do you mind if I

pray about that mm-hmm .

This week. It's just Exactly.

I just think I don't,

I don't see a way out of

this situation for you,

but I just think God can help you.

Right. Right. Stuff like that.

There's just such opportunities

there. Huge. Yeah. Um, yeah.

That's great advice. I I do

want to talk about this idea,

uh, of work life balance.

- Okay.

- Uh, which is a little bit of a misnomer

because we like to separate

work from our life.

Right. As if they're not, you

know, overlapping included.

You said 90,000 hours, right?

- Yeah,

- Exactly. So this is

our life that we're talking about.

You know, maybe a, a crude

definition of life is

how we spend our days and how

we spend our days is at work.

So we need to, a large part

of our days is at work. Yeah.

And so we need to, um, need to understand

that they're, they're not separate things.

They are kind of the same thing.

Uh, but I think what people

really want to know is

how do we manage our life in such a way

that work doesn't dominate the other

important areas of our life?

Because we have leisure that's important

that we need to make time for.

We have rest that's important.

We have our spiritual

activity that's important.

We have our families.

Right. If you have a,

if you have a family that's important.

And so, you know, there's

the tension that people feel

because what happens

primarily is they overwork in,

in the area of our professional world,

- Right? Yeah.

- Yeah. To the negative

reality to some of these other areas.

And so I think the question

that I'd like to ask you is

what are, what are some practical ways

that you personally balance

some of those tensions?

'cause you lead a large church,

you have a lot of staff,

there's a lot of demands.

You know, I pray for you every

morning, you're on my prayer

list. 'cause I'm like,

- Well thank you. God, if you

- Don't lift this guy up, he'll crumble.

Right. There's that sense

that there's so much to do.

And so you mentioned to

our staff the other day

that it just seems like I could, you know,

people can always work.

'cause there's always need.

There's always something to do

and yet you don't.

Right. And so what are some ways

that you have set up boundaries

or maybe what are some rules of life

that you've created in order

to keep things as they ought to be?

So one area doesn't dominate

to the negative effect of others? Sure.

- I, I think I'll back up a little bit.

Um, when you talk about,

I think the danger

that people do when you talk

about compartmentalizing life

is not even just work

and, you know, home life,

spiritual life and work life.

And there's just life. Our

whole life is spiritual. Right?

Yeah. And so I love

that you brought that up

because I think, you know,

building off the mission

for work, you gotta look at that

and go, okay, yes, my

life is lived spiritually,

not here's my spiritual

life, here's my work life.

When it comes to work life balance.

I mean, I would say every job has seasons

where your job's gonna be magnified.

Okay. And you just need to

wrap your head around that.

I think if you're expecting

balance every single week

of every single year Yeah.

It's unrealistic. Sure. You

will be disappointed. Yeah.

That's good advice.

Um, you'll be let down.

So ebbs and flows in workplaces happen.

Um, you know, in church

we have the peak seasons,

whether it's school launch,

whether it's Christmas,

whether it's Easter, we

got these peak seasons.

They're ebbs and flows.

Uh, counting world, you

know, tax time. Right.

Peak season, I know a lot

of our accountants work

around the clock on

those weeks and months.

Right. Teachers. Teachers. Exactly.

- Construction workers. Yeah.

- Everything. Yeah.

Um, so trying to think

that every week will be

balance is unrealistic.

Okay. Leaning into your

job on the seasons of

demand is important, but

then prior, or rather

after that, what you need to

do is then say, okay, is there

space now that I can, we've

gone through this busy season.

So for myself, you ask, how do I do it?

I go, leading up to Christmas

is pretty busy in my world.

Yeah. Okay. And then plus all

our Christmas Eve services,

I always take the week after off.

Mm-hmm . Um, why? Because

I need that break.

I need that rest. And, and so

it's an intentional choice.

I know that it'll reset me.

It'll reset me for the

new year. Yeah. Uh, so,

- And you can sprint during that time

and work hard because

you know there's Right.

Because you know it's coming

at the end of a workout.

If you know that you only

got a minute left. Yeah.

You can always push a little hard. Right.

If you see, if you look at that clock

and there's 20 minutes left.

Right. Oh Lord, take me now. Totally.

Like you took me knock . Yeah.

You just want to get out of

this situation. Right. Yeah.

- That's great. That's exactly it.

So I think scheduling those in

and not just thinking they'll

happen automatically is huge.

Yeah. Uh, I do think,

you know, most employers

most want there to be

healthy work life balance.

Mm-hmm . And so if you're

feeling unbalanced, talk

to your employer because most

of the time they'll be like,

okay, let's see what we can make work.

Yeah. Or why, why are

you having difficulty?

Maybe you're, you're not staffed enough.

Maybe you could figure

out different ways to do

what you're doing to get it done quicker.

That type of deal. There is, there is

a nuanced in the job world

where I say most, not all

but most feel that you can lean into that.

Yeah. And have those conversations.

But then I also just think it is, um,

because there's mental

rest, physical rest,

and then spiritual rest.

Okay. Mental rest is just

taking your mind off the job.

And there's many times

where I just need to go home

and go, you know, Marla will

wanna ask, how's your day at work?

And I'll say, it's good, but I don't know

if I really want to talk about it.

Yeah. Can we just talk

about something else? Right.

Because you just need that break. Yeah.

It's not that I don't love my job,

love our church, anything.

You just need that right. Space.

Um, physical rest is just chilling.

You need your body to recoup. Yeah.

And that can be done in play,

exercise or actual rest.

- Yeah. Napping. Yeah. Oh

- Exactly

- Baby. I nap like a boss.

- Do you? Oh yeah. Yeah.

There you go. Like a napper.

Um, and then I, spiritual

rest for me is resting in God.

So whether that's just

turning on some worship music,

whether that's just

listening to the scriptures,

reading scripture, just rest in the Lord.

That's important. Yeah.

- So I know, uh, for

you, you snowboard Right?

That's a big element and it

is for me, the idea of driving

to a mountain and paying

$3 million to, you know,

ride it's only two Okay.

and then potentially get

injured. Right. Yeah.

Like, that just seems like a nightmare.

But for you, I mean you,

that's a, that's a recharge.

It it is. Yeah. Tell me a

little bit about kind of that,

what, what happens just

psychologically in you and you

- Those times?

Yeah, I mean it's a long day

because typically what I do

is I go with a good friend

and we would drive up and

back, um, on the same day.

But what it is is you get the

car ride down and it's funny

'cause the only time I have McDonald's

breakfast is when I go snowboarding .

It's the only time I

- Look forward to it.

Eat McDonald's bacon and egg or what? Uh

- Yeah,

- Classic. Yeah.

- Yeah. Okay. Bacon egg.

Yeah. Yep. It's the only time.

So good. Yeah. They are great.

But it's kind of funny 'cause

you're like, okay, this is happening.

Yeah. In fact, I'm going

next week for a day.

Oh, that's good. Uh, so

we booked it already.

- We're doing okay. I

know this is embarrassing.

One or two, one or two sandwiches. Okay.

- Yeah. Just one. Okay. Yeah.

With a coffee. Well done.

- Yeah.

- you go for

- Two or what?

I mean if you're gonna do it,

yeah. Okay. I'm gonna do it.

- There we go. But um,

so you have the ride down

and it's just good conversation

with a good friend.

Yeah. You get to the hill

and for me, when I get on the hill,

because I've been doing this since I'm 15,

it's like riding a bike.

Mm-hmm . So I'm not gonna go

on a, on a snowboard park.

I'm not gonna go on a rail.

I'm not gonna go do something

crazy 'cause I'm too old for that.

Yeah. I do what I know what I can do,

but as soon as I strap on that board

and go down that hill, it's

like no matter how much stress

or how much worries in my life,

it's just I am in a

different spot mentally.

Mm-hmm . And you go down

that hill, you enjoy it.

And I, and it's, for me,

it's enjoying God's creation.

You're looking around the mountain,

you're like, this is incredible.

So there just does something

for my soul, for my mind. Yeah.

And yes, you're exhausted

when you get home.

'cause you got up at four

30, you get home at 10,

you just drove eight hours in a day.

You were on a hill for eight

hours, but there's nothing

better

- .

Yeah. So physically you're tired. Yes.

But emotionally or spiritually,

you're, yeah, I don't have

a one big thing that I do.

- Yeah.

- For, for me it is sort

of the daily and it is exercise.

Yeah. Right. Which is kind of

shakes me out of that. It's

- Huge workplace

- Fog.

Right. And invigorates me,

you know, to kind of keep on going.

So my pattern is I usually

wake up quite early,

just naturally wake up early

and I'll usually, I'll start work

before I get to work mm-hmm .

Because that's my best time

for work is early in the morning.

And so, um, I

after kind of do some devotional work,

do a little schooling, I

usually do my, um, work.

Work. Right. Right. It's answering emails

or maybe it's outlining a

sermon, whatever it might be.

And then I usually work

out at lunch. Right.

Because after, you know,

four hours at work,

it's like I've been sitting and Right.

Getting all cranky and so I go

and that invigorates me to

come back in the afternoon.

I'm like, okay, let's go.

Right. Let's do this again.

So that's a freedom that, um,

- And and there's something good in that.

I mean, not everyone has the

opportunity to do that in their job.

Right? Yeah. Um, because of

just the context of their work.

They couldn't leave in

the day or something.

But what you're doing

is physical mental Yeah.

The the, the exercising

that you're doing daily.

I mean I do it in the

early in the morning. Yeah.

Right there. There's no exchange for that.

I find prime example, I was

so tired this morning by the way.

I got up at like six Yeah.

And it was my morning to run

and I'm like, this is the

last thing I want to do.

And that's exactly when

you have to do it. Yeah.

Because it just gives you so much energy.

It just transforms the

way you're thinking.

It helps you go into the day

or midday or whatever evening

whenever you have the

space to do it. What's a,

- What's a saying?

Slay your dragons in the morning

before they eat your lunch

or something like that.

Mm-hmm. I don't know

what it is. I don't know.

Anyway, someone Google it

and find that out. slay.

I dunno that what is talking

about sounds interesting,

but this idea of do do some

of these hard things first

thing in the morning. Yeah,

- Exactly.

That's the idea. That's it.

- Idea before it catches

up with you. Yeah. Yeah.

No, that's great. And I think

that I idea of leisure or play

or whatever it is to kind

of, kind of shift the,

you know, when you have

a job that you love

or a job that's demanding,

it could just be like,

that's all you ever think about.

Right. And just having those

moments where you can just break

- Is just, you know, and

and even in our role, we,

we, there's a lot of joy,

but there's also a lot of like heavy Yeah.

Because people share their struggles,

but then we walk through people's losses.

Yeah. Right. And so there's

many jobs that deal with heavy.

And so you gotta figure out, okay,

I can't go home always with heavy.

Mm. You know, it's hard day.

You know, how do you balance that?

And so I think a lot

of these leisure things

or outs, um, are are vital.

- Yeah. My wife actually,

just on that, my wife had

to shift, she's a registered nurse.

Yeah. She's working for

high risk labor and delivery

and there's just so

many bereavements Yeah.

That she did it for, um, around 10 years

and she just, it just caught up with her.

Yeah. And it was just too heavy. Yeah.

And you know, I, I'm thankful

that people are in roles like that.

Totally. But it was a need.

She needed to shift and

so she's doing something else with that.

But yeah. People go do some crazy stuff.

- Yeah. Yeah. Well,

- Okay.

So, um, for our listeners

here today, they've traveled

with us, talked about work

as worship, talked about work

as a mission field, you know, dealing with

that work life balance,

tension that we all deal with.

What is something that

maybe we haven't said

that you'd love just to kind

of FreeWheel an encouraging thing

that you'd, you'd leave somebody with?

- So in prepping for my

message for this series Yeah.

It's an interesting thing and,

and I alluded to this earlier.

I said, let's get back to this.

Um, nowhere in scripture do I find,

do I read, do we have anyone

who said I'm gonna go out

and look for a job to make me happy.

Mm. And so it's an interesting thing.

You can't find it anywhere.

What you have is God giving

an invitation to people

to step into something

and it's their choice

whether or not they do it.

And then God's expectation

for people to say,

to work for the glory of him.

Yeah. And I think I'm all

for like these self-assessments

gifts, I'm all for that.

Okay. Like we do it on staff. Yeah.

We have it, we have our lane.

We know, okay, this is who

you are, this is where you,

but sometimes I think we've

messed up the idea of calling

to be more about us, our happiness

and what aligns with us then God

and his glory and honor mm-hmm .

And so if we truly wanna

align ourselves scripturally,

we gotta say, okay, that's

not the primary thing

that we're going after.

Yeah. So yeah.

- If you're counting on work

to make you happy, you won't be happy.

Yeah. It can't do that for you. Right.

It can do that in moments

just like these other things.

An Amazon purchase. Exactly. Right. Yeah.

But for something so important. Right.

And so demanding and so

all encompassing, you know,

90,000 hours of our life at work, um,

it can't make you happy.

Right. Um, it's really that

contentment in the Lord

that can make you happy.

You think of Paul, you know,

he had a calling on his life

to be an apostle to the Gentiles.

That was a calling that was very specific

that God brought him into.

Yeah. Right. It was very specific. Yeah.

But he made tents Right.

To make money to put

food on the table. Right.

And though, and there's this,

there's this utility of work

of just, yeah, you gotta feed

your family, you gotta feed yourself.

Right. You got, you gotta take care of it,

but people can um, be called

to some wonderful work

of God but not get paid for that.

Right. Right. And so just

maybe encouragement if you're,

if you're, you know, listening

and you're like, I'm a

plumber and I don't really want a plumber.

What I really wanna do is this for God.

Well you can actually, you know,

you can still do those things.

You could still lean in different ways.

Um, but use, um, your,

your day to day, your money

to Friday just for practical reasons

and do it as unto the Lord

and use it as worship.

Mm-hmm. But then go and work

that calling out in another area.

Sure. So yeah. I'm, I feel

blessed because my calling

and my income align.

Right, right. Um,

but I don't want to pigeonhole

this idea of calling

of the thing that you spend

your work life doing, you know,

as, as the same thing as what God is

- Calling you to do.

I I think a danger people

fall into is they spend their

whole life chasing the

calling and their whole career

and then at the end of it they find that

they never caught it, so to speak.

And actually our ultimate

calling is to be for the Lord.

Yeah. And so that, that

for me is like, it's,

it's interesting 'cause I

think we just always think

what's gonna make me happy?

- Yeah. - It's not bad, but

what can bring glory to God?

Or how can I bring glory to God?

- Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna

please the Lord. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a great way to end.

Alright, so thanks Pastor Phil.

Thanks for watching, uh,

or listening to Faith for Real Life.

We hope that you're enjoying it

and uh, we'll see you next time.