This week’s guest is another fascinating individual that I hoped would be a guest  before I even launched the podcast! 

Tony Smith and I met in 2012 when we were classmates at the Culinary Institute of America’s Wine Program in the Napa Valley.  He and his parter had just purchased a very historic Winery in Portugal and he was in the program to prep him for winery ownership and production.

I was lucky enough to visit the stunning Covela property in 2016 and I knew it was a special the place the moment we drove in. 

We dive into:

• The roller coaster of buying and restoring a winery property that dates back to the 1500’s
• Acquiring the coveted Organic certification and what that means (compared to Biodynamic)
• Does glassware matter?
• Can you taste minerality from the soil in the wine?
• A surprising natural winemaking technique they are using that I've never heard of before
• Our "Sip Spotlight" tasting of 3 of his unique and gorgeous wines made from the rare Avesso grape

Check out how they are blazing the trail in Portugal with their recent international certification for Regenerative Viticulture, which is new and highly regarded.

You can see footage of the beautiful property and purchase Covela wines for shipping to the US (and other countries) here:

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So, Tony, we're finally here.

How long have , we've been trying to do this?

Oh, about 13 years.

Yeah, we did meet in the beginning of 2012.

Yes.

Beginning of 2012.

Yes.

So, a long time, 12 years and a bit.

January of 2012, we walked into the Culinary Institute of America in St.

Helena in the Napa Valley and became fast friends, a small circle of us and we, we learned so much, didn't we?

Yeah, we were all a little bit wet behind the ears and then suddenly we became sort of wet on the palate.

We gave it all right.

I remember as we were going around the room and and meeting each other and we all spent I don't know eight weeks together or whatever it was And hearing your introduction and I was like this dude just bought a winery

in portugal like wow, i'm coming from the corporate world of disney and I just want to learn about wine and this dude just bought a winery, so Let's start there.

What, what led up to that moment?

And maybe on that first day of class of the Culinary Institute, what were you thinking?

Well, I was, , I was a little apprehensive because I didn't know who was going to be on this course, right?

And I thought, oh, this is going to be like, maybe all super sommeliers or winemakers or whatever, and , I went in as a wine producer, but with really the idea of learning the basics, because, you know, I'm not trained

as an oenologist, I'm not trained as a viticulturist, you know, I, I'm not going to say I had no idea, but you know, why, why did I get into the wine business?

Because I like drinking.

What can I say?

You

and me both.

No, I, I mean, I've always had this, you know, this thing for wine.

I mean, I'm originally from the northwest of the UK, which is really not wine country.

It's definitely beer country, but my previous career before I got into the winemaking stuff was I used to be a journalist, I was posted to several countries and all of them were without exception, either big wine producers or big wine drinkers.

You know, in Europe, especially in southern Europe, we really consider wine to be food.

You know, so when we say food and wine, it's a little bit of a misnomer because wine is already food.

I mean, it's just part of your table.

So, it's very difficult for us to separate the two things.

We see it as, I suppose in post modern speak, it would be like, the holistic approach to the table, right?

It's all part of the same thing.

So on that day, when we first met, I was a little apprehensive, because I thought we were all going to be like, real You know, super crack five star songs and, you know, I didn't know what to expect.

We had

one.

We had Ryan.

He was already a song.

He was already a song.

He was the youngest of

the bunch, but the most advanced in his knowledge.

Indeed.

And went on to do more, you know, Ryan, get on here.

So to go back to your question, what was I thinking?

I mean, it was, it was like a little bit.

intimidating.

I felt a little bit guilty saying, you know, Oh, we just bought a winery.

Um, it sounded, it sounded like, you remember those adverts from the 1970s with Victor Kayyam, Remington?

I'm too young for that, sir.

I was born in the 1970s.

That shows my age, you know, and it was, you know, the Remington razors and he comes on and said, you know, I love the company so much.

I bought it.

You know?

So I, I felt, I just felt a little bit sort of not guilty, but you know, a bit strange saying this because in the end we were

all so enamored with it and had a million questions about it.

Good.

And the thing is, it's not just me, of course, and I have to stress this, um, you know, it's my business partner, Marcello, who is also a very good friend of many years.

Shout out to Marcello!

Shout

out to Marcello!

Um, he's the guy who really sort of got me into this.

And it was a question, really, Nikki, of the right place at the right time.

Both Marcello and I have always been interested in wine, since we've known each other at least.

And I was coming to the end of a contract that I had.

I used to work for Condé Nast, the magazine publisher.

I was with Condé Nast International in London, but at the time I was in Brazil.

So And, you know, I'd basically done everything that I was supposed to do when I went out there.

So I'd been there for four years, and we'd, you know, set up a new joint venture, and transferred some magazines, launched two more magazines.

And really that was, I'm not going to say there was nothing left to be done.

But it was up and running.

And so what was the next step?

And then this came up and it was just one of those things that you sort of think, huh, I just turned 50 at the time.

I thought, you know, well, I still got enough energy in me for another project.

You know, let's take a look at it.

And so, um, the it was Covella.

And this is, you know, one of the most, really is one of the most beautiful vineyards in Portugal.

It's on the, on the banks of the Douro River, so in the north of Portugal.

I mean, you know, for the, for those people who don't know Portugal, the two main cities, Lisbon is the capital in the south, and then Porto is the industrial and economic capital.

If you go up the river, Douro, from Porto, you have two of the main wine producing regions in Portugal.

The first region you hit is Vinho Verde.

Which a lot of people will know from summer sipping

and

you know, maybe from traveling and then following the vineyard, you come to the to the official border with the D.

O.

C.

Doro and then that becomes more of a sort of red wine port.

country, as you have a river, and then of course on the Spanish side it continues with the Rivera del Duero, et cetera.

So it's, it's part of a Liberian system, but because there are two countries, you know, this is the Portuguese side.

So Covella is still in the Vinho Verde.

region.

So the DLC Vino Verde.

And a lot of people think that Vino Verde is a style of wine because the Vino Verde that they will have drunk, especially in the States, will probably be, you know, cheap and cheerful.

A little fizzy.

Wait, wait, wait.

I don't want to brush over that.

Can you say that again?

Cheap and cheerful?

Cheap and cheerful.

Cheap and cheerful.

I've been called that a time or two in my life, but okay.

I think you called me that once as well, no?

Maybe.

Anyway, cheap and cheerful.

You know, slightly frisante, and sometimes slightly sweet, and you know, it's, uh, considered to be, you know, your, your typical terrace wine for, for summer.

Porch Pounder.

Porch Pounder.

Terrace is much

fancier in European.

Here we call it a Porch Pounder.

I

mean, that's what a lot of people think Miniverde is, and, and there's also some confusion about this because people think Miniverde can be from anywhere.

As long as it has these characteristics, which is not the case.

So, you know, we always hear a lot in our business about terroir, right?

Everybody talks about the terroir.

And you know, I'm sure a lot of your listeners will know what terroir is.

But just for those people who don't, I mean, it's, it's really everything that goes into the wine.

It's the location.

It's the climate.

It's the soil.

It's how we grow.

I call it the taste of the place,

taste of the place.

That's exactly what it is.

And so it also involves the human input, which a lot of people forget, because it's not something that is just given to you by nature.

It's what you make of that.

And that is also part of your Ted White.

And that for us is very important, because we're very particular about how we work.

So, southeasternmost corner of the Vina Verde region, right on top of the Douro River.

What makes that very special?

The borderline between Vina Verde and DOC Douro is a borderline of two principal things.

First of all, the soil.

On the Vina Verde side, it's granitic.

Which makes for pretty mineral driven wines, and I'm sure we'll be Granitic,

meaning high granite.

It is basically granite soil.

You're growing in granite.

If you, uh, Covella is sandy granite, so if you pick up a, a, a lump of soil from Covella and bash it with a hammer, it crumbles.

But when it crumbles, you'll see a lot of shiny bits in it.

Which is the granitic part.

So you've got to think of that being in the ground, and that really lends itself to producing, you know, really sort of sharpish, acute, stony, flinty type wines, okay?

When you go across the border into D.

O.

C.

Douro, it becomes schist, so slate, so a totally different type of soil.

The second difference Is that from Covella downriver towards Porto, you're obviously closer to the sea, so there's much more maritime influence in terms of the weather.

So it's a little milder, the winters don't get so cold, the summers get hot, but not so hot.

Further upriver towards the Spanish border, the temperatures are extremely hot in summer and extremely cold in winter.

So where we are, we're sort of on the borderline, and that makes Covella a little different in terms of Inuverib because we do have this big difference in, not just diurnal shift, but sort of seasonal shift.

So the difference between the summer and the winter temperatures is much higher.

to the coast.

For the listeners too, diurnal shift is that shift from high height of the daytime temperature to the drop of the low at night, which I've talked about

in episodes that, you know, Napa Valley and Sonoma, we have a very big swing from high to low, which is Most of your celebrated wine regions across the world have that.

That is that importance of high during the day and low at night is just a very specific thing when it comes to farming and vineyards.

Right.

So yeah, so, um, Covella is there.

And so the other really interesting thing about Covella and where it is, the grapes that we, we grow.

Um, and, you know, if I would.

Talk you through the whole history of Covelli, it would take a long time.

It dates back to when?

So we have a, an old manor house on the property, which is in ruins and we've kept it in ruins.

It's preserved.

And that, the first mention of that we found in records is like 1588, 1589.

I thought it was

15 or 1600.

Yeah,

it's very old.

Wow.

So there

has been a farm there for a long, long time.

And in terms of, you know, grape growing.

It's been cultivated as a vineyard commercially since the 1980s.

And before that, there was, there were vines there, but it wasn't, it was for like own production.

There was never any, there was no brand.

And we took over the place in 2011.

And continued the work of farming, but you know, it was sort of like, Oh, you know, what have we bitten off here?

You know, it just meant, and it's still valid today, an awful lot of work and awful lot of investment and an awful lot of, of TLC, you know, I mean, you know, you work in, in this business, work among the pines, you know, how much care has to go into them to produce the good stuff.

Right.

that we want to produce, right?

And so it took quite a while for us to bring it back to its former glory, but we've done so.

And, you know, I would say that by now we've probably replanted around 85 percent of the property.

It's also, as is typical for the Doro, and this is where it becomes a real sort of Doro looking farm, almost everything is built on terraces.

So you have these stone walls, which in the case of Covea are all granite.

Mm-Hmm.

So really big, thick, heavy gray, sort of glistening gray, silver granite.

And you know, it's pretty impressive when you see it because you think, how did they build this stuff, you know?

Yeah.

But yeah, so all of this makes for, you know, the, the, the terraces, the greenery.

The mix of crops and the beautiful buildings, which are also granite, historical buildings, make Covella a very, very picturesque place.

And it's, it really is very charming to drive in from the entrance.

You know, it's a real sort of sweeping, granite cobbled road, and you're driving under basically a whole canopy of wisteria.

And it's a unique experience.

It really is.

I'm getting a little bit emotional while you describe this and you know me well enough and my listeners know me well enough and I'm very memory driven, nostalgic, and I say that joy falls out of my eyes sometimes in the form of tears.

And as you're describing this.

We were lucky enough to visit in 2016, spend time with you at Covella.

You picked us up at the airport.

You drove us in that winding, sweeping road under the wisteria.

Oh, I just got goosebumps.

And, um, and it was Michael and I and my parents, much like our recent trip that we did to Europe, the four of us.

And we spent a few days with you experiencing all this beauty that you are talking about and the restoration and the vines and the soil and the boat ride up the Douro that you set up for us, which was amazing.

Yeah.

The Douro is really extremely special.

It's.

You know, it's a scenic blockbuster, the Doro.

It's just incredible.

It's very

steep around you and then the property, the estates, and all the, you know, properties that you're seeing, you're like, Oh my gosh, that's like Graham's port.

I know.

Amongst many,

yeah.

Yeah.

That, that was just the one I remember seeing because it was one I was familiar with when I was there.

And the terracing is so steep and it comes all the way down to the river and I don't I don't

think it looks like anywhere.

What else that I have seen with the terracing specifically?

It is

unique.

It is unique.

That's, you know, not for nothing.

It is, uh, the UNESCO World Heritage site.

So it's protected.

I'm quite right.

I think too.

So I think probably the other strong first impression you get.

When you drive into Covello, is that you can see immediately that we are an organically farmed property.

And it's very important for the whole concept and the whole history of the property as a vineyard.

So when we took over the place, it was actually certified, but it was practicing biodynamics.

And so this was during the early 2000s, so it was pretty avant garde for its time.

And then, of course, then the crisis came, and then so everything had to be started again.

And we decided, you know, did we want to do biodynamics or not?

And we decided against it.

We decided for organic.

So we are fully organic and

for our listeners, the difference between

the basis for both of them, of course, is that you don't use anything toxic.

So you don't spray with chemicals that are harmful.

You try and use as as natural products as you can when you're trying to foment the growth.

of your grapes, right?

The difference is that organic is a little less esoteric than biodynamic.

I mean, biodynamic is, you know, follows more the lunar calendar.

So there are certain times of the month when you shouldn't be moving large quantities of liquid around.

You know, you look at the tides.

I mean, we do understand that large quantities of water do move with gravity.

Um.

And with the circling the orbit of our planet around the sun and the moon, actually the moon orbiting around us.

So you know, there is a foundation for this thinking, but for me, it's.

And for Marcello also, I mean, we just found it a little too esoteric.

Do you fill the cow horn and bury it with

a special

concoction inside?

That was the one thing that sort of really got me about this.

And it's not because I don't respect people who bury cow horns.

I do.

However, if you're going to do that in Portugal, if it's going to be the real, real McCoy, Your cow horns should come from biodynamic cows, a biodynamic herd.

We don't have a biodynamic herd in Portugal.

So where'd you get your cow horns from?

Amazon.

You ship them in.

So you know, they come from Switzerland, they come from France, they come from Germany, Austria, wherever.

But you are shipping them in.

So what happens to your footprint?

To me, it, it made more sense to be organic, clean, and modern.

You know, just because you're organic doesn't mean to say you're old fashioned.

And so it's not that we're against, you know, sort of things that are different, but we do believe in being empirical and, you know, Marcelo is a, he is a businessman with a lot of experience.

I'm a former journalist, so we always had to go after the proof, you know, and so that's why we opted for organic.

But we're very proud of, Our organic certification, because it's very

no small feat to achieve very difficult

to get.

I mean, it just makes for an awful lot of work.

And so to go back to what I was originally talking about, in terms of when you come into cover, you can immediately see.

But this is an organically farmed property.

Because between the rows are vines.

If you go to a lot of wineries, you'll see that it is so manicured, as you said.

But, sort of, there's nothing growing between the rows.

And we actually, we plant stuff between the rows.

So we do cover crops, and they're normally like leguminous, so we use mustard, lupin seeds, clover, and you know, it's stuff that grows out, grows outwards pretty quickly,

so occupies the ground before any sort of unwanted weeds can get in there, and as such protects the vines, and that's immediately visible once you pass through the gate.

Because, and in, in, in springtime, it's, you know, it's a riot of color.

It's beautiful.

It's also very beautiful.

That's a great way to say

it.

Yeah.

It really is.

Aren't

those

strategic cover crops also encouraging the good insects that you want?

The insects, they encourage good insects.

You know, we have to try and keep the insects in balance.

You know,

there are some insects we don't want.

But if we have other types of insects, those insects, can

I sing this song?

Are you ready?

It's the circle of life with

your voice.

Don't think listeners that we don't know that Tony sounds a little bit like James Earl Jones.

We're very aware of this since the day I met him, just with a softer British accent.

The tone of your voice.

Okay.

Yes.

Anyway, so it's so this is one thing that you can see immediately when you drive into cavella where you walk into And that's something that would they're

very proud of and it's something that you know, our winemaker Rui Cunha, who is a very, he's a key member of, staff, but Rui is a very special guy.

Covella was actually his first ever job when he graduated and he did his internship at Covella.

So it's a very special place for him.

So when we took over the property, he was one of the first people I called and said, Rui, you know, I'd like to introduce myself and, um, just to let you know that we've.

We're taking over Covella, and we'd love to have you back.

And he was very, very excited about this.

He said, you know, yes, of course, you know, I'll be there tomorrow.

And today is basically our director.

He, he runs the place, and it's great.

It's really good.

Because it's somebody who, in a way, has, you know, as much DNA in common with the place, or even more DNA in common with the place than we do.

So it's great.

We know that it is in very good hands.

So, reassembling the original team was very important.

So we have people who have been working there for decades.

And it's really important, as you know, in a vineyard, you've got to know where the best vines produce the best grapes to make the best wine, right?

And that only comes with experience.

You can't just predict it.

It comes from observation and from tasting every year, every vintage.

So in addition to Rui, we were very lucky to be able to get back the former estate manager, Senor Antonio, who, when I first asked him, how long have you been working here, Senor Antonio?

He said, me?

Only 40 years.

Anyway, Senor Antonio has now retired.

And we were, again, lucky to find a new local lad, who is Miguel, who is following, really following very well in Señor Antonio's footsteps, with the guidance of another Miguel, who is our viticulturist.

You have dos Miguels

in your fingers.

We have dos Miguels.

And we call 'em, we call 'em m and ms.

M and Mss.

And they make a very good team.

So the vineyard at the moment is, it's such a pleasure to see it.

It's polished, not in a polished way.

Mm.

I I'm explaining this right, because it is natural.

It's a very natural vineyard.

But you can see the care that goes into it, and that is really, really important.

And, you know, again, this brings us on to the question of the grapes.

Our main grape at Covella, and one we will be trying in three different forms in a little while, is, is called Avesso, and very few people in the States will have heard of it.

Not many people in Portugal know it, actually, it is rare.

And Americans don't know it, which is why I'm so excited for our listeners to get schooled on it with you right now.

Okay.

Well, I mean, we should start with the name, actually.

Okay.

Adesso.

Adesso.

The one great thing about it is, contrary to most Portuguese native grapes, you can pronounce it.

Yes, it is easy to say, it's pretty phonetic.

A V E S S O, fantastic.

How easy is that, right?

But in Portuguese, abesso means the wrong way round.

It means upside down, it means inside out.

It means back to front.

It means a nice one if you're in love, head of heels.

Ah, it, it, it basically also can describe somebody who doesn't want to do something.

So if you're sort of a vessel to doing something, you're averse to doing it.

Aversive, like the root of the word AV averse.

Okay.

So it's

that sort of idea and it's called that because that's what it is.

It's a bit of a prima donna.

It's, Rui, actually our winemaker, calls it the offended lady.

That's Pinot Noir, we call Pinot Noir the offended lady.

So this is our offended lady, because if it's too hot, she faints.

If it's too wet, she doesn't want to go out and get her new hat wet, right?

I'm sorry, I'm being a little bit sexist here, right?

No, it's okay.

I'm laughing and I love it.

It's perfect.

This is a very, very pernickety grape.

So it doesn't like too much heat.

It doesn't like too much damp.

It doesn't like too much drought.

It's sort of like Goldilocks, you know?

She

likes it just right.

Just right, you know?

And so we're very lucky.

at Covella, that we have the just right conditions, generally, for this grape.

And we are really at the epicenter of the Avesso production, planted in a very, very small area.

Yet, it is considered to be one of the four top quality grapes in the Vigno Verde region.

And it is,

it's really good with fatty foods.

So you can imagine it's like a roast pork leg.

Or something like that, or duck, you know, something that's got quite heavy, right?

Because it's high in acidity.

So it really cuts through all the, the fattiness.

The richness.

Yeah, we love that.

So

the main gourmet dish at Covella and surrounding area is roast lamb.

Yes, we did do this.

We were there under the pergola.

Yes.

By candlelight.

Yes.

And it's

roast lamb done in the wood.

burning oven, like a pizza oven and it's done at very slowly and very long and it comes out of there basically dropping off the bone and you can imagine it's not the lightest of food.

Could it is so delicious.

And people will say to me, especially my fellow Brits and say, You're drinking white with lamb?

Are you crazy?

It should be red!

No!

With this lamb, really, this is not pink inside lamb.

This is like, you know, heavy duty, six hours in the oven lamb.

And it just falls apart.

It's terrible.

It's delicious, but it's heavy.

And so the Avesso pairs perfectly with this lamb because it is, it's high in acidity, it's strong in minerality, it really just cuts through the grease like a knife.

It's not a very nice way of saying it, is it?

No, it's, that's what it does.

That's what acidity does.

Can we

taste it?

I, I, I poured it in my glass as you were talking because I was like, I can't wait.

I need to go into our, our sip spotlight and then we've got a triple sip spotlight today because you were kind enough to ship to me and guys, good news.

Tony's wines can be shipped.

We can ship, we can ship.

And he shipped through the U.

S.

And, but I have three bottles of Covela Avesso 2022, but they're three very different ones.

So we're going to start with the one in the real tall kind of German riesling

shaped bottle.

Yes, it's a rind, a rind bottle, as we call it here.

A rind

bottle.

We, we call it here, which is quite interesting, we call it a pistola.

Because it looks like a pistola, like a pistol, because it's a long barrel, you know, it's a rind bottle, which in Portugal has become synonymous with the Vinho Verde bottle.

So if we taste this, first of all, you know, on the nose, normally the Avesso is not so, it can be fruity, but in our interpretation of it, it is not so fruity.

Now, we, we vinify this to the end.

We want this to be a totally dry, white, It's gastronomic wine.

We believe that it's mineral driven.

And so the fruit is there, but it's sort of plays second fiddle to the minerality.

But to me, the fruit, especially on the nose, like there's some citrus notes, but it's not like lemon juice or lime juice.

It's the zest.

So there's a little bit of that pith that gives you that kind of, um, bitter citrus on the nose in a beautiful way.

Not juicy.

Citrus

and then you can probably pick up maybe some like white stone fruit

Yeah again listener stone fruit any fruit with a pit right peach Apricot things with a pit.

Oh my gosh, tony.

I haven't had this since we visited you and it's Stunning,

but like said, you know, crisp, mineral driven, re you know, dry and the great thing has a really long finish.

It really does.

Which makes for an excellent gastronomic wine.

It really does good.

It almost is a mouth coating and a long finish.

More that you would expect from a light red wine.

Yes, exactly.

So it's hanging out.

This makes it for real.

It makes for a really, really good food wine and you know, I dunno, what do you think, Nikki around?

What would you eat with this?

We're in the same category like a Viognier, like Pride's Viognier, because it's a bolder white flavor and texture.

It's not a super light white.

I think any cheese, I'm looking at your notes from your website right here on this wine and you're talking about goat cheese or pecorino.

So if you're not a carnivore and you're not thinking about the lamb falling off the bone, that's okay.

You can go to the lamb's friend, the goat, and get some cheese.

And that could be really pretty.

Cause I think the acidity of the goat cheese and the acidity of this wine would be a match made in heaven.

Um, I have a question for you when I was prepping and opening these beautiful wines today and pulling out my glass where you specifically call out in the notes

here to enjoy in a burgundy shape wine glass, which listener that is the bigger bowl that you'll see, which typically Chardonnay and Pinot Noir are served in that.

Why is that Tony?

Why do you think this glass?

We just,

we feel that the, we feel that especially the aromas.

Which can be muted in a smaller glass.

We think it brings them out much more.

And I actually, I have, I have this wine now served in two types of glasses.

So I have a more angular bordeaux glass in front of me.

Mm-Hmm . And I just served till now in a burgundy glass, so I'm just gonna try both.

Yeah.

Let's

see if it's different by the way, because of our eight hour time difference, it is 10:40 AM here in California and I am

, Tony: actually Zoe hitting the booze

. Nikki: I do have a spit cup here 'cause I was like, we're tasting three wines and I still have a full day ahead of me after this call.

But Tony, it's like almost six o'clock in , in the evening there You're wrapping up for dinner and the evening.

Yes, we are indeed.

Almost 7 o'clock,

almost

7 o'clock, no spitting, spitters or quitters.

There it is!

There it is.

So I gotta give some context to spitters or quitters.

So, when you're in wine school, as Tony and I were sitting next to each other in the classroom, tasting 30 40 wines a day.

You sign a waiver that you are not going to swallow the wines or you'll be schnockered at the end of class.

You sign a waiver that you will be using your little spittoon.

But some of the wines that we would taste in that class, we'd look at each other and just be like, I cannot.

No!

No!

Expectorate this wine.

I need to swallow this wine.

So then we started saying spitters or quitters.

It's purely wine related, people.

Yes, absolutely.

Don't go there.

Anyways, so I'm trying this wine in different types of glass and I do think that in a bourgundy glass and around a more globular glass.

Which is what I have.

I really think that the nose comes off much more distinctively.

When I smelled it again, you said it's very mineral driven.

Yeah.

And so I want to go back to what you were talking about, these granite based soils.

Mm hmm.

And the shiny bits in them.

Do you believe you can taste the granite in the wine?

It's something that I personally do believe in.

I know this is one of those things that a lot of people say, ah, what are you talking about?

It's always a hot debate.

Minerality in wine.

It's a buzzword.

What are

you talking about?

I do believe that.

I mean, it's like you said, this is a really hot issue, right?

And everybody argues about this.

And I still believe there is.

A link, it may be in my head, who knows, but I think there's something flinty about this wine.

I don't know if you've, do you feel that flinty like scraping two rocks together

or the little like in chemistry class, that little fire starter that was a flint, right?

Yeah.

That sort

of thing.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yes, I do get that.

But again, you know, this is how does it

get there?

Is this, is this a characteristic of the grape itself?

Does it depend on where it's.

Does it depend on how it's farmed?

Let me ask you all three of these wines.

This is the first one that we're tasting are all Avesso.

If we had a map of your vineyard, are these three wines from three very different parts or rows or sections or blocks?

The first one is the more general, I mean, you know, we don't sort of look for any specific plot or parcel for this wine because this is the wine that we made most of.

So we need to produce a lot of this.

And what's the price on this?

So here in Portugal, you would pay nine euros for this.

So ridiculous.

Yes.

That's crazy.

Yes.

In a good way.

Uh, an American having this shipped in, not talking about shipping charges, but just buying bottle price.

No, so the bottle price for us is the same.

So 10 bucks.

That's ridiculous.

Plus you have, plus you have, The shipping.

And a lot of people balk at the shipping because they, oh, it's so expensive.

But if you add, if you really add it all together, I mean, what would you pay for a wine of this quality in the States?

For the bottle price?

25 bucks?

For the bottle?

40?

Yeah.

California?

Yeah.

California, Tony?

For a white wine of this quality?

Yeah.

So, I, so it means I've got to move to California.

Yeah.

I think the last time I looked, it was like 118.

Books, which is really

not.

I mean, that's shipping a case of wine from East Coast to West Coast in the U.

S.

Is about 1 50.

Okay,

so

overseas is impressive.

You

know, it's doable.

And considering the price of the wine here, you know, this is still a goodbye for whoever's in the States.

You know,

well, and I really, really.

I believe that it is nearly impossible to go into any local wine shop across the U.

S.

and say, Hey, I'm looking for a Vesso.

I think most of the wine shop employees, even the certified ones, might look at you and say, this is so, so rare.

So this is such a treat.

So now we're

going to go to number two.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So this is then our refined version of the first one.

Should I pour

it differently, like with my pinky up

as I do it?

No, but this definitely does benefit from the, from the burgundy glass and you will see why.

I should have mentioned the first one is 100 percent made in stainless steel.

And, you know, no malolactic, everything's sharp as a razor.

And the second one, also no mallow, but we do about four or five months in used barrels.

So just

a slight hint of wood in there, but it's slight.

It softens the sharpness of the minerality on the nose.

It's still there.

It hasn't gone away, but to me, it's supplemented with just a little bit of that rounder kind of.

Very subtle baking spice.

Yeah, that I would say, you know, without wishing to blow my own trumpet here, but that is sort of a Burgundy style because it's old, it's old barrels.

It's not new oak.

It's just a hint.

Chardonnay and Burgundy.

Yeah,

it's just a hint.

Ooh.

And so this, it doesn't change the character of the Avesso, but it does beef it up a little bit.

Yes.

So you can imagine doing this, like, maybe with smoked fish.

Your

website suggested pairing says ratatouille.

Also a Disney reference that I love.

Oh my

word.

We did this specially for you.

You do realize that.

Question before we go to the third one, when I look at these labels side by side, not only are the bottles different shapes, but on the reserve you have the organic and biologic biological notifications on there, which is not on the first of this.

So.

That's correct.

So the reason for that is that, as I mentioned, we replanted so much of the property that we couldn't produce enough organic grapes for our needs.

So, for the more basic Aveso, we still have been buying in, and of course, then you really don't control whether the grapes are organic or

not.

So,

we have estate grapes in there.

But it's not exclusively at steak grapes.

However, however, as of 2023, this is also organic.

So 22 that we're tasting was the last year where this in fact was the case.

Now you're full organic.

And that's happened also with our rosé because we make a rosé from Toriga Nacional.

And

that also

has been switched to certified organic.

I have to say,

tasting is one right after the other, especially to most wine drinkers.

They are not vastly different.

They're really not.

They taste of the same grape from the same place.

But if we get really nitty gritty and think about, especially knowing what you've told me about stainless versus barrel, there's just a little bit more of a richness and a different nose on the reserve.

That's really lovely.

So, the other thing that I Think that we believe, um, will, you know, the wine will benefit from having been made, having been finished in barrel is, you know, in terms of ageability.

Yeah.

So we do think that this will age really well, especially considering the regular of, so also ages really well.

And so that's the veso made in stainless.

Okay.

So we do believe that the veso with a touch of wood.

will be even more, how should I say, developable, you know, over time.

Because that oak gives some structure, some picture frame, which will help it to age in the bottle, yeah.

Price difference between these two?

This is, here is about 16 euros, 16, 17 euros, depending.

Still very reasonable, very reasonable.

for the quality of the wine and it's organically certified.

I finished what I had poured and just between you and me, my spit cup is empty.

No!

Um, and so I just poured the third one, which I'm really intrigued about in my glass.

Tell me what the heck is happening here.

So this is an Avesso Riserva again, but it's Avesso Riserva Natur.

So it's a wine that is as good.

Closest to nature as we can get so the thing is, you know, there's this whole debate about natural wines and you know, everybody All the hipsters want to have natural

wines and very often to be really really honest, you know I taste natural wines and I think that's a dud, you know, there's a defect in there There's a defect in there.

They didn't get something, right?

In the winemaking and of course, you know, the comeback is always no, no, no, no, well, you're drinking is sort of overproduced and blah, blah, blah to me, Mickey, and I believe also to you, the wine drinking to me has always been about pleasure.

I mean, we, we like it to be pleasurable, you know, so I want something that I really enjoy drinking.

So, I mean, I don't like funky stuff.

I'm sorry, I

can appreciate it,

but it's really not what I want.

However, we do understand that, you know, there is this movement and it in a way belongs to us also in terms of the more natural, the better, the closer to nature you can get.

The better it is, it fits with our, you know, whole organic philosophy.

We decided to make this wine and this wine is very special.

And I will just give you a very quick rundown of how.

I discovered this.

So, I was at this local wine fair in the north of Portugal a few years ago, and on the next table to me was this older gentleman, Fernando, who I've known for years, who makes really, really, really interesting wines.

And he is a biodynamic guy, he does the full works, you know.

I don't think he plays Mozart to his vines, but apart from that, he basically does everything, you know.

And the wines are really good, I'd say.

Excellent, excellent wines.

very much.

He called me over and he said, you've got to come and taste this, come and taste this.

It's something I've been doing.

So I went over to his table and we tasted this wine and it was really unlike anything I'd ever tasted before.

If I had to put a badge on it, I would say that it was like tasting New wine fresh out of the cellar, you know before it's really been finished.

Yeah This is really interesting, but what is it?

He said well, I've been using this technique Whereby I don't use any sulfites and immediately my ears went Pricked up.

I said, oh, that's really interesting because you know a lot of people here in Europe complain about sulfites I don't know if that's the case in the States.

I would think probably less so.

People, people will bring it up, but people are confused and do not have good information about what sulfur in wine, sulfur dioxide, sulfide, sulfites, whatever it is.

There's a lot of misconceptions, but it is a little bit of a hot topic as well.

I

mean, basically we should get this clear from the start.

We use SO2 to stabilize the wine.

If you're shipping a whole load of wine to Brazil from here.

You're going to the tropics.

It gets unloaded in Brazil at, you know, really high temperatures.

The chance is that if you don't stabilize the wine, it's going to turn into vinegar.

That's the natural course of things.

You don't want that.

So there, there is a necessity to stabilize the wine.

Mostly it is done with sulfites.

But here, you know, this whole debate about SO2, it really sort of caught my imagination.

Because what he used to stabilize the wine is chestnut blossom.

Chestnut blossom.

Blossom flowers, dried chestnut flowers, which are then ground up, And then when it comes around to the stabilization of the wine, instead of putting the SO2 in, you put the ground up flowers in there.

It's like a powder, a fine powder.

It looks like a flower.

Yeah.

It looks like a flower, F L O U R.

Like flower.

Yeah.

Okay.

And so you put that in instead of the sulfites.

And what I did not know is that chestnuts have been used for years.

In the cosmetics industry, because it's very high in antioxidants.

Preventing against oxidation and the negative effects of oxidation.

And I,

I didn't know this until I came back to Covella, and I told Rui about this.

He immediately got even bigger ears than I had and said, that's really, that's really interesting.

We should really try that.

In addition, Covella, one of the trees that we have a lot of, are chestnuts.

So we decided, okay, we're going to harvest our own chestnut flowers, we're going to dry them, we're going to grind them up, and we're going to test this.

So this was, I think it was 2018, we did this.

So we made just one barrel, and bottled it, and waited.

So the winemaking was probably finished in October, and we came back to it in May.

And Rui and I opened the bottle and it tasted like this, which is sort of like this fresh young wine.

There is depth to it, but it's not particularly layered, I would say, but it is very well balanced.

In a blind tasting of these three side by side, I would guess that this one, the natural nature was younger.

I would say this was a 2023.

Right against its counterpart 2022s, but that's not the case.

They're all the same, but I agree it gives the Freshness, the nose is totally different for me Do you feel like or have you guys been I now have

a million questions because this to my knowledge is the first time I'm ever tasting a wine that has been stabilized with this Dried chestnut blossom.

This is so cool.

Yeah.

Do you feel like, kind of the same question, can you taste the granite from the soil in the wine?

Can you taste the chestnut blossom?

Do you feel like it adds a character?

I do think you can actually.

And it's really at the, sort of, the end of the finish.

If you wait for the aftertaste, there is sort of a nuttiness there.

I'm not going to say chestnut, nuttiness.

I would say that, which is like what we get on aged white wine, like an old Chardonnay might have a little nuttiness, like hazelnut, which is so interesting because we're saying the beginning part of when you taste this wine seems younger, but the finish.

Was

this

an oak?

This was just like the Abesso Riserva.

It was three or four months in oak, and it's the oldest barrels we can find.

Super neutral.

Oh my God.

It's so interesting.

The finish is very long and very different.

And I, I knew you were doing some really unique and interesting things there.

I didn't know the details of this until I sat down and prepped for our session today.

This is so cool.

Congratulations.

I'm in on all of it.

Thank you.

Especially this really unique take, um, and even just the packaging.

So the bottle's the same, but now your label is more natural colors, kind of muted.

It's got that little bit of wax on the top, just like our Solovato, which I love.

But it's so neat.

I mean,

if you notice, you know, we went the Natur, the word Natur is actually larger than Covella because we really wanted to attract this market.

Of

these three, do you make the least of this one?

The same, so the Veso Reserve and the Veso Na.

They're the same.

It is so interesting.

And all three of these are available to be shipped in the U.

S.

Yes,

absolutely.

Oh my goodness.

Tony, I have, before we say goodbye, I have a listener question for you.

Oh.

From one of our listeners.

Her name is Wendy.

Wendy.

You might know her.

I may know her.

Now that it's been over 12 years since buying the winery, what would you go back and tell your pre 2012 self?

Oh, be prepared for every eventuality, because you never know what's going to hit you next.

Perfect.

Uh, this one is from a man named interesting name.

I don't know.

Maybe you've heard of him.

Uh, what's next?

Plans for making any wine down south?

Oh, so many people have asked me this.

Um, because you know, we, I've sort of moved my residence to southern Portugal.

And the Algarve is like our main touristic area.

And it's always been, it's always been a wine producing region.

But the wine sort of fell out of favor for many years.

However, we've had a massive tourist boom.

And what the tourists want, they want to taste the local wine.

Yeah.

And so there is, there's been a That will be all over

Europe this summer.

There has been a renaissance of Algarve winemaking.

Whether I would go into that or not, I mean, I think this is one of those age related things.

When I think about it, you know, I mentioned we, when we first met, I had just turned 50.

And now I'm, you know, I'm 62.

I'm not old.

I don't feel old.

But, you know, there is a long timeline with wine investment, right?

I'm very happy that the project that we have is going well.

And the investment levels are sort of leveling off a little bit.

And so, would I like to do something down there?

I would love to do something down here.

I would, I mean, I would be very interested, but I have no plans for that.

No.

We're going to leave that as a dot, dot, dot listeners.

If you are planning a trip overseas, and I know so many of us have been traveling to Europe, go to Portugal, check out the website.

Not only can you visit and wine taste and see this beautiful property, but there are residences where you can stay, that you can rent and stay on the property overlooking the Doro.

And it is amazing.

So I will put the link in the show notes, Tony.

I can't believe.

Finally did.

I can't

believe we finally did this.

Your wines are phenomenal.

My head is still trying to wrap around everything that we just tasted.

Now I have three open bottles with two tastes out of them.

Thank goodness I have a Coravin to preserve them.

And Michael can enjoy the fruits of our work this morning.

I really appreciate you inviting me.

That's fantastic.

Thank you so much.

Keep doing what

you're doing.

I really hope that, you know, people who are listening will be interested in RFSO.

And other things that we make, but you know, the vessel is really important.

It's really

close to my heart,

you know,

yeah, I can tell the way you speak about it.

And it's just something that you really, really, really cannot get here.

So I hope that they'll hop on your website and, and even do what we did, get a couple of each of the three and do a side by side tasting with the notes.

That would be cool.

Tony cheers.

Thank

you so much.

Oh,

by the way, before we say goodbye, tell our listeners, how many languages do you speak?

Gosh, my latest thing, I'm learning Italian.

Because you don't know

enough languages.

So English, Portuguese, French, German, Spanish.

And then I used to speak, because of my professional background, Serbo Cromat, bit of Russian.

I

think we just crossed seven.

You're my hero.

Thank you so much, Tony.

I love you so much.

And thank you for your time.

so much.