Join us as we return to John Carpenter, this time earlier in his career, with 1981's "Escape from New York." Starring Kurt Russel (the first time they worked together), Lee Van Cleef, Isaac Hayes, Adrienne Barbeau, Ernest Borgnine and Harry Dean Stanton, the movie transports us to the bleak future of....1997. As a group of millennials we can't disagree. We discuss the muddled politics of Carpenter in comparison to some of his later films, its misanthropic underpinnings, and how Snake Plissken doesn't count as an anti hero because he doesn't count as a hero at all.

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Track 2: Does this have a chat too.

Track 3: Yeah it has a chat on the right.

Track 2: Yeah we don't need it certainly i did not write anything at all.

Track 1: And and i feel like okay i sent a message what happens.

Track 2: I get a little pop-up in the bottom corner and then i can click on it.

Track 1: That is better remember the old one was like if you got a message you hit chat

Track 1: and then you had to go into the chat and i was like what the fuck yeah that

Track 1: was miserable why is there two stages to this.

Track 3: Yeah are you sure you want to chat.

Track 2: Other than this other than the sounds i feel like this is actually better better

Track 2: than the other one agreed because i have my you can you hear my air conditioner no,

Track 2: see that's that the other one you can hear it and i have to suffer or find a

Track 2: way to anyway i'm just gonna like wing the little intro.

Track 1: Now i can't okay the echo cancel if i put noise reduction and echo cancellation on then you can't.

Track 2: Hello, and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Evan,

Track 2: back again with another film discussion from the left. If you'd like to support

Track 2: the show for as little as $3 a month, you can go to Patreon forward slash Left of the Projector Pod.

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Track 2: you've got the best taste around.

Track 2: Wherever you're listening, give us a rating and subscribe so you'll be notified

Track 2: of our weekly episodes that drop every Tuesday. And now on to the show.

Track 2: this week on left of the projector we are going to be discussing a classic john

Track 2: carpenter film from 1981 escape from new york it of course stars kurt russell,

Track 2: lee van cleef ernest bordenine donald pleasant isaac hayes harry dean stanton

Track 2: and adrian barbeau it is quite the cast,

Track 2: it was a pretty successful box office film for john carpenter who unfortunately

Track 2: doesn't always do so well there,

Track 2: doesn't mean those movies aren't awesome it made 50 million dollars on a six,

Track 2: million dollar budget oddly enough there was a sequel to this film which i covered

Track 2: in this podcast a couple of years ago so we're going back in time to new york,

Track 2: with me i have ward and bill and you can call me snake.

Track 3: No it's blisken how.

Track 2: You guys doing uh.

Track 1: You can call me brain which would make I guess that would make more Duke yeah,

Track 1: the duke i'll take it.

Track 2: Oh this movie is so good but do you want me to mention hugo's thing i can do uh.

Track 3: Yeah yeah first and foremost.

Track 2: So before we get into discussing the episode we also wanted to plug a,

Track 2: comrade who you've heard on this podcast many times hugo aka sees the mean street

Track 2: and you may have seen his videos all over instagram and we want to let you know

Track 2: he now has a youtube channel where he has released episode one,

Track 2: which is What is Cultural Hegemony?

Track 2: And you should go check that out at the channel that's in the show notes.

Track 2: So go listen to Hugo and his puppets doing God's work.

Track 1: Well, also we'll put a link in the show notes for, there is a GoFundMe,

Track 1: I believe, or a fundraiser for Hugo.

Track 1: But there's some information for those who don't know, he and his family recently

Track 1: had a personal emergency,

Track 1: uh you can find the information about that online uh but if you check his instagram

Track 1: we'll put all that in the show notes as well um and if you would like to support

Track 1: him in his and his family in their time of need that would be much appreciated.

Track 2: Excellent and uh taking it to uh a different note is,

Track 2: i don't know if we the three of us have done a carpenter movie what is is this

Track 2: your favorite john carpenter film and if it's not what it is,

Track 2: i don't think the three of us have done a carpenter movie i've done the sum

Track 2: on this show i've done the thing we did big trouble oh no we did big trouble

Track 2: little china fucking hell yeah.

Track 1: I was like like i know we did.

Track 3: Big trouble little china.

Track 2: Yeah, we've also done Escape from L.A., and that's it, and Halloween.

Track 1: For myself, it's a toss-up between The Thing and Big Trouble in Little China.

Track 3: It's the same for me. The Thing is absolutely incredible, top tier,

Track 3: but I got a lot of nostalgia for Big Trouble in Little China.

Track 3: It's also another great film, a lot of fun, holds up surprisingly well,

Track 3: and yeah, I just got a lot of nostalgia growing up with it, so it's real neck-and-neck for me.

Track 2: Yeah, for me, it's also the thing. And I also love Big Trouble in Little China,

Track 2: but I also have a memory of watching this when I was maybe 10 or something.

Track 2: I don't know that I saw Big Trouble in Little China until I was a little older.

Track 2: So I just remember watching this movie, laughing about how just the images of

Track 2: New York and, you know, it's kind of funny to think that opening,

Track 2: one of those, the early scene with him flying a little glider and landing on the World Trade Center.

Track 2: It's like, did he predict 9-11? I don't know. Probably not. But this movie is...

Track 1: I don't really think it compares.

Track 2: No, no. And the thing that I... So, one that I was watching some of the behind

Track 2: the scenes, because I have this on DVD, and they talked about,

Track 2: because I mentioned the cast, they called it like an ensemble cast because it has so many...

Track 2: Like, it has Ernest Bordenine as just in this movie.

Track 2: You probably wouldn't expect someone like that to be in this.

Track 2: Plus, Harry Dean Stanton, who's a legend. Isaac Hayes, you know, singer, composer.

Track 2: it's just like a a stacked cast more than any of his other films probably.

Track 1: I'd say so i think this definitely for for a cover to film i mean this is pretty

Track 1: this is a pretty stacked cast um i think isaac hayes is i mean other than car

Track 1: wrestle i think isaac hayes is the uh the standout.

Track 2: Yeah i love hero dean stand-in but his character like his it doesn't you know

Track 2: rise above the rest as compared to some of his other, you know,

Track 2: films, but still so good. I don't know.

Track 3: I, um, apparently Carpenter had some complaints about Kurt Russell at first.

Track 3: Cause he's like, yeah, he's a fucking Disney actor. Like, yeah.

Track 2: It eventually got to a point.

Track 3: Where it was just like just read your lines how it's written.

Track 2: Well yeah he had a complaint.

Track 1: About about russell and then went on to put him in like fucking everything right.

Track 2: Well i think so from the like them talking like doing the um there's like a

Track 2: commentary track with them going and talking about a lot of the movie,

Track 2: and they seem and it's like obviously it wasn't done at the time it was done

Track 2: years later and they seem to like be like such buddy pals

Track 2: but they were talking about in the making of it that deborah hill who was carpenter's

Track 2: like long-time collaborator on movies that they had like complete opposite political

Track 2: views but somehow it still worked for them in this,

Track 2: like carpenter would consider himself left-ish kurt russell's a republican is he mad guy i don't know.

Track 1: I can totally see that and honestly i mean i could see that reflected in the

Track 1: movie as well i enjoyed this movie but i do think the politics are muddled to say the least.

Track 2: Yeah i muddled or i would even argue like pretty poor deborah hill comprehensible

Track 2: yeah well deborah hill again it's an american.

Track 3: Understanding of politics.

Track 2: Well do you know what deborah hill said she calls this she said this movie is

Track 2: a libertarian movie and the idea of personal freedom in snake blisket,

Track 2: That's how she describes the movie.

Track 1: The movie starts with the hijacker making an entire speech about the workers of the United States.

Track 2: Which they completely then forget about for the rest of the movie.

Track 1: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. There's no through line, and it abandons the most

Track 1: powerful political sentiment right off the bat, which I honestly think makes

Track 1: it overall a weaker film.

Track 1: Like, I honestly find overall the, the themes of this movie to be kind of overall

Track 1: lost and kind of just like, like, okay, there's, which I think detracts from

Track 1: it overall, personally.

Track 3: So it's like an, it's an action film. And like what a perplexed user randomly

Track 3: reviewed, but right before I watched rewatch this for this episode was,

Track 3: uh, and there's not a lot of dialogue.

Track 3: Good action movie to watch. there isn't dialogue i mean because like you get

Track 3: the politics of like the female hijacker in the beginning,

Track 3: and then it's immediately tossed away and then you get like the plot of oh snake

Track 3: is basically a fucking former special forces turned criminal now prisoner basically,

Track 3: turn coerced into a,

Track 3: anti-revolutionary mercenary who's trying to subvert the prison population's plans for freedom.

Track 3: And it's like, they don't even field out,

Track 3: the like plan for freedom very well it's just like we're gonna have a wrestling match instead.

Track 2: What's what i think is also funny and this actually maybe tell me if this board's throwing bats,

Track 2: tell me if this then makes sense all right so you say like they kind of get

Track 2: away from the message of the hijackers because they just they put they die in

Track 2: the plane crash the president survives and the whole plan of the movie is to rescue him,

Track 2: so he can deliver a speech with like the USSR and China who are the other countries.

Track 2: The world has no idea about this plane crash, right?

Track 2: There's no, they're not putting this on TV. I feel like the way that they just

Track 2: sweep that under the rug and then later they just have the president on TV.

Track 2: Of course, like when we get to the end, it's kind of a funny scene and it gives

Track 2: you a comedic note, but this is exactly what would happen, right?

Track 2: They would just completely sweep everything under the rug and do a special forces

Track 2: shit and be like, nothing ever happened.

Track 3: Yeah, especially whenever they're talking and like, yeah, the president's not

Track 3: even going to matter if he doesn't even fucking make this meeting. And so like...

Track 3: I don't, so Evan, you know more about this movie than me. I'm like,

Track 3: I've probably seen this like maybe two or three times. Like I,

Track 3: this was basically like a rewatch, like a fresh watch for me almost.

Track 1: Same for me. It's been a long time since I saw this.

Track 3: So what the fuck was the president even supposed to give over?

Track 3: There was like something about cold fusion, but then there's like a fucking cassette tape.

Track 2: That's the thing about it. That's sort of, it feels like it was sort of a throwaway

Track 2: thing that they didn't know what they needed. The president,

Track 2: why they need to get the president.

Track 2: So I feel like energy, right? Energy.

Track 3: Yeah. So like they talked about cold fusion. And so the idea I was toying with

Track 3: was that like the president was having to go to the Hartford summit

Track 3: where he delivers cold fusion to the USSR in China in order to maintain world peace. Right.

Track 3: um i think that is war reparations for the united states's attempted invasion

Track 3: of the ussr with the leningrad

Track 3: yeah they do when they talk when they mentioned like the invasion of leningrad

Track 3: when he was in special forces so that's just my idea but like i don't fucking

Track 3: know this movie so i'm asking you.

Track 2: I mean i did like even when you listen to most of the commentary about it they

Track 2: don't really honestly talk about that like the subtext of the plot at all really for the most.

Track 3: Part i'm probably overthinking this movie like because like you said john carpenter

Track 3: is left ish he's not going to put a ton of thought into it it's no he doesn't really.

Track 2: No and the thing.

Track 1: I don't think okay so i don't think it's the fact that like he's left ish and

Track 1: like you know like i think that this it's really the fact that this is his fifth movie.

Track 3: And if.

Track 1: We look at his later movies like They Live or even Big Trouble in Little China,

Track 1: you start to see more development of his like kind of like,

Track 1: his thought processes on things the way he like kind of like approaches things

Track 1: the way he thinks of things but this movie is it's i feel like it's so early

Track 1: on in his career and it's like and i feel that the,

Track 1: the opening sequence with the thing i feel like really is like oh that that shows like he,

Track 1: because it's really blatant the rest of the stuff kind of like it's like almost

Track 1: like hand waved away but like that's a deliberate choice,

Track 1: the other stuff is almost like forgotten but that is a deliberate choice to

Track 1: make something very explicit in the very beginning it's like you start off with

Track 1: that and then it's like later on things are just kind of like,

Track 1: you know it peters off.

Track 2: No you're right about that me of oh sorry.

Track 3: Yeah. And you're right about that. I think I was mostly going to try to turn

Track 3: it into setting up the whole left-ish thing for just making fun of like,

Track 3: yeah, but then ultimately probably a lot of the decisions were made with just,

Track 3: do I want to fucking deal with Kurt Russell?

Track 1: I mean, I feel like Kurt Russell or honestly, like studio, like,

Track 1: and like, you know, higher ups at this point, like he's still,

Track 1: you know, this is very early in his career. He doesn't have, he doesn't have.

Track 2: They didn't want him the students didn't want him.

Track 1: Yeah like he's this is so early like he's he doesn't have the kind of like hole

Track 1: he's gonna have later on at all.

Track 2: Yeah well the thing i was gonna say is um it's it reminds me of uh the director

Track 2: of dotty darko richard kelly who like if he had an actual,

Track 2: understanding of the political environment we live in beyond just like what the surface level,

Track 2: i feel like the movie could have been more interesting when you think of a movie

Track 2: an action movie with actual politics that's good and interesting like robocop,

Track 2: you know that's like well thought out whereas this is sort of like an action

Track 2: movie that sort of had some throw-ins to,

Track 2: his idea of like you know,

Track 2: the political moment at the time like you know there's these revolutionaries

Track 2: and they're trying to connect the president but they don't really have any organization.

Track 2: And in the commentary too, he says he's not, he's really against quote-unquote

Track 2: authoritarianism, you know, the boogie word, boogie name, where he like basically

Track 2: says that inherently any human who is in authority power will be bad.

Track 2: That's sort of his political perception.

Track 2: I don't know if that's since changed. I mean, that kind of fits with this movie in a way.

Track 3: Engels wrote a little whole pamphlet on that.

Track 2: Yes, he did. You can check that out at Marxist.org. reading library, if you want.

Track 2: Some of the really funny... Oh, go ahead.

Track 1: I was just saying, you know, it's, it's a very, you know, just coming to things,

Track 1: just starting to understand things kind of like, you know, approach to things.

Track 1: I mean, how old was he when this, you know, all right, this was 1981. He was born.

Track 2: 34, 33.

Track 1: He's still, I mean.

Track 2: That's pretty young.

Track 1: That's, that's pretty, that's pretty young.

Track 2: Yeah. 33 years old. I mean, it makes it even crazier that he made Halloween when he was 30.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it tracks that it's, like, underdeveloped idea,

Track 2: but at the end of the day, if you like fucking action movies and you like Kurt

Track 2: Russell and you like Isaac Hayes being this cool-ass mayor of New York,

Track 2: a number one, then this movie's for you.

Track 3: No, this was a good movie. Like, it's an enjoyable action movie. Not too long.

Track 3: Some of the scenes, I was like, hmm, this didn't need to be so long.

Track 3: But I'm like looking at the overall runtime and it's like an hour and a half.

Track 3: And I'm like, that's fair.

Track 3: Like no hour and a half runtime. Some of the scenes are a little bit too long. That's all right.

Track 2: You would have really hated his original cut of this movie. Originally,

Track 2: the first 10 minutes of the movie is a high tech bank robbery by Kurt Russell

Track 2: and his partner to set up why he goes to the prison. Yeah.

Track 2: And it's 10 full minutes of them doing the robbery. They're on a subway train.

Track 2: They get busted. And it's really boring. All of his friends at a screening said,

Track 2: we don't really understand the point of this part of the movie.

Track 2: Like, does it make sense?

Track 2: And it makes the rest of the movie kind of suck. And he's like,

Track 2: oh, all right, I'll cut it out. And he did. And Kurt Russell,

Track 2: when he was talking about it, he's like, I don't even remember filming that.

Track 3: Of course not.

Track 2: I like a lot of the, I told you this, also this like filming note.

Track 2: So they film most of this movie in Missouri.

Track 2: and recently in st louis they had had a fire that burnt down like a good portion

Track 2: of east st louis and so they used,

Track 2: the area that was all burned out that already looked like shit and with rubble

Track 2: so then just they just threw trash on the ground and filmed at night and that

Track 2: was basically everything that was shot was all shot at night i just realized that perfect,

Track 2: yeah and they only shot one scene in new york city do you know what it was it's

Track 2: the shot of the statue of liberty from above and then that's okay.

Track 1: Yeah that makes sense.

Track 2: And then it pans down they.

Track 1: Didn't they didn't shoot that in new york because the statue of liberty is in new jersey so.

Track 2: Actually gotcha haha the new york tri-state area.

Track 3: Why does new york gonna be like the only one named in the tri-state area when

Track 3: it's like the old the ego pure ego like i never hear new jersey tri-state area It's got a.

Track 2: Good room to it.

Track 1: Though. It's because we have humility.

Track 2: New Jersey has better, has better, has more class.

Track 1: That's him, right.

Track 2: One of, I've mentioned, this is one of my favorite lines is when,

Track 2: or favorite, I love the opening scene where Snake Plissken is sort of like dragged

Track 2: through, taken to talk to,

Track 2: the leader of, I guess they call it the United States Police Force. What do they call it?

Track 1: Yes. This is what they call it.

Track 2: United States Police Force. And it has a really kind of funny logo.

Track 2: But then they say, when you get arrested, you have the option to just be cremated.

Track 2: and not go into the prison like that's.

Track 3: But like what is it just cremated you just get thrown into an oven you don't

Track 3: get like a gunshot to the head or anything no first,

Track 3: that's a good question they just dude i mean like would you rather get burned

Track 3: alive or like get shot in the head but before you burned alive if that's the option i'd rather.

Track 1: Get shot in the.

Track 3: Head yeah yeah exactly and so it's like hmm a hellscape mega prison or burning

Track 3: to death but it's like is the burning to death preempted by a gunshot.

Track 1: What i find interesting about this entire.

Track 3: Thing first of all.

Track 1: Do you remember the film i think it was called the island which was basically

Track 1: um it wasn't the michael bay film no not that.

Track 3: Film one where they're growing clones no i don't know if i thought about that movie in years.

Track 2: The Michael Bay one. It's fucking terrible.

Track 3: It's all right.

Track 1: Um, no escape in 1994, no escape starring Ray Liotta.

Track 1: Um, so it is it's Lance Henriksen,

Track 1: um, which base it is very, you know, a soldier convicted for murdering his commanding

Track 1: officer is dumped and left to die on a prison island inhabited by two camps of convicts.

Track 1: Uh, there's also, um, uh, Ernie Hudson is also in it.

Track 1: Um, so this, this.

Track 3: This movie also has a silly gun.

Track 1: Okay. We're not even getting to the guns.

Track 3: Both movies have silly guns.

Track 1: The guns in this movie are fucking insane.

Track 2: I have to, I, wait, hold on. You buried, you, you buried one lead that I have

Track 2: to say the movie you're talking about. No escape. Do you know the reason why he gets sent to prison?

Track 2: for killing civilians in Benghazi.

Track 1: It says, soldier convicted for murdering his commanding officer.

Track 2: Yeah, it was in Benghazi, Libya, which I think is just funny.

Track 2: All right. Maybe that wasn't necessary for me to cut you off. Sorry.

Track 1: I remember this movie from when I was younger, watching it.

Track 1: And while watching Escape from New York, it made me think of that as well.

Track 1: It brought that back as well. And the thing that I find most interesting about

Track 1: these kinds of films is that regardless like much like lord of the flies um,

Track 1: and how lord of the flies has been misinterpreted over the years um.

Track 1: That these movies fun they always fundamentally betray a perception on the part

Track 1: of the people making them that if,

Track 1: you know like john Carpenter could say like, oh, I'm anti-authoritarian all

Track 1: he wants, but he then makes a movie in which he posits that when,

Track 1: Without the U.S. government, without anything like that, these criminals,

Track 1: and we don't know what any of these people have been sent here for at all. We have no idea.

Track 1: We don't know if they're murderers, if they stole a fucking loaf of bread because they were hungry.

Track 1: We know absolutely nothing. But it still is posited that the moment people are

Track 1: left to their own devices outside of the purview of the federal government,

Track 1: they immediately descend into,

Track 1: anarchy and, you know, barbarity.

Track 1: And I find that to be like the most interesting aspect of any of these things that it always,

Track 1: yeah, they say like, oh, I'm anti-authoritarian, but they also fundamentally

Track 1: believe that without the guiding hand of the federal government and law enforcement,

Track 1: people just do whatever the fuck they want.

Track 1: And what they want to do is murder and rape and, you know, just destroy things.

Track 2: The thing that's confused that I wish was more fleshed out,

Track 2: So you have the brain, who is the guy played by Ernie Sand, who basically is

Track 2: able to refine oil or gas so that they can run their cars with chandeliers on

Track 2: the hood, which are pretty fucking sick.

Track 1: Which is great. I love that. I want that.

Track 2: Yeah. And then you have Isaac Hayes, who is the Duke, who's sort of like the

Track 2: de facto leader of the prison island.

Track 2: But the thing that I was thinking about is the scene where they're escaping,

Track 2: and they steal one of the cars of his entourage and they're going through.

Track 2: And then a bunch of people are like throwing stuff at them.

Track 2: do you think that they were throwing stuff at them because they thought he was

Track 2: their part of the Duke's entourage and they're like against his,

Track 2: quote unquote like reign of New York and there is actually like they're almost

Track 2: like revolutionaries within this prison where they would love to overthrow this,

Track 2: Duke guy I think it's fleshed out enough yeah I.

Track 1: Think you're.

Track 3: Overthinking it I took it as they saw a car by itself and it was like let's get that fucking car.

Track 1: Yeah okay they do say that like when they say like oh when he says um go through broadway um,

Track 1: because the duke won't go through broadway so actually he says go through broadway

Track 1: because the duke won't go through broadway basically and the way um,

Track 1: i believe he responds she's like oh my god you're broadway and it almost seemed

Track 1: like there is definitely like an underclass of like Like a feral humans,

Track 1: almost people that have descended to a whole other level of barbarity.

Track 1: And it feels like to me that Broadway is seen like the people who lives.

Track 1: Yeah. Like people who live on Broadway are the real savages.

Track 1: Like they're the ones who just, they go insane.

Track 1: So Evan, do people who live on Broadway or in the Broadway area,

Track 1: are they, are they all savages? Is that what it's like over there?

Track 2: The Zionists are.

Track 1: Okay, yeah. That checks out.

Track 2: So, this is something that always gets me when I watch this.

Track 2: Do they drop in food to the prison, or are they supposed to just, like, eat rats?

Track 1: I don't think they're dropping in food.

Track 3: They're dropping in anything. They're just dropping in people.

Track 2: I don't understand. They must be cannibals. There can't be fucking food there.

Track 3: There's probably cannibals. There's probably some, like, farming.

Track 3: I mean, they're saying, like, there's, like, greenhouses and shit.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 2: Yeah i guess.

Track 1: Yeah it's it's said pretty early on that like you know they had like developed

Track 1: things like i i really like i personally as much as like i,

Track 1: i did enjoy this and like i said like word same thing it's like i haven't watched this since fucking,

Track 1: god knows how long ago so this was essentially like a rewatch for me like a first time watch almost,

Track 1: and like to me like the biggest thing about this especially as like a person

Track 1: who like loves like world building and dystopian stuff and sci-fi like,

Track 1: this movie is a very broadly,

Track 1: like a very broadly sketched out like concept really,

Track 1: and it there is so much here that is left to the viewer's imagination,

Track 1: and it is woefully under underdeveloped in terms of like world building especially

Track 1: with what happens there are so many interesting concepts to explore,

Track 1: behind the idea of like a group of people that have been abandoned and like locked behind walls,

Track 1: there's such potential there that i honestly feel like was largely,

Track 1: totally unexplored.

Track 2: Part of the reason i mean i think there's numerous reasons again.

Track 1: He's like.

Track 2: A pretty young filmmaker but supposedly he was supposed to give the studio he

Track 2: like owed the studio a film i can't remember if it's,

Track 2: goldcrest films or whatever the studio was he owed them a movie and the one

Track 2: he wanted to originally make like which wasn't this one they're like no that

Track 2: movie sounds stupid and he's like oh i have this script that i wrote like 10 years ago,

Track 2: this movie and it's like why don't we make that he pitched to them and they

Track 2: liked it So for me, the reason that probably is the case is that the script just never,

Track 2: they liked whatever version he had and they just went with it.

Track 2: They didn't rewrite it and fix it up necessarily.

Track 2: Nick Castle who wrote it, yeah. So that's probably why.

Track 1: Yeah, it shows.

Track 2: I have a soft spot for this movie. I saw in the theater actually maybe eight or ten months ago.

Track 2: And I've watched it a few times. Not that often, but I've seen it probably six or seven times.

Track 3: I bet this is solid in theaters.

Track 2: But it's fun.

Track 1: I'm not trying to be a hater.

Track 2: No, no.

Track 3: Just miserable Marxists.

Track 1: This isn't even about Marxism.

Track 3: This is just.

Track 1: Like a like you know this is from like a.

Track 3: Yeah when you try to enjoy it like on more than a surface level it's like oh

Track 3: there's just a lot of holes.

Track 2: Yeah and like i like the premise though of it you know it's in the future they

Track 2: basically decided to just turn new york city into a prison you sort of have

Track 2: this weird post-cold war era that's not really,

Track 2: post-Cold War because the Soviet Union still exists and China is a big deal at the time.

Track 2: And then they say sort of like, okay, how can we just make a cool action movie

Track 2: out of that concept? And they didn't really do much left with what they had.

Track 3: And they're like, dude, we got Kurt Russell on a fucking eyepatch.

Track 3: His name's Snake. He smokes cigarettes.

Track 3: He's got a suppressed Mac-10 that doesn't sound suppressed at all.

Track 3: And he's got a scope mounted on the fucking suppressor for some fucking reason,

Track 3: what else you need dude this is aura farming.

Track 1: What was it with the like the 80s and the early 90s and putting scopes on giant

Track 1: revolvers what was what the fuck.

Track 3: Like that was like a pretty niche thing that like some hunters would do

Track 3: because like in certain states like certain pistol calibers you can hunt with

Track 3: and so like instead of like carrying around a giant ass rifle through the fucking brush and forest.

Track 3: carry a little revolver and you can do it the same thing but like prop i feel

Track 3: like prop movie makers were just like put whatever we can on guns to make them

Track 3: look silly and that's gonna be awesome.

Track 2: I mean they look cool and like i think it almost makes sense that they would

Track 2: look silly in this weird prison place where they even have guns to begin.

Track 3: With like the vibes are the The vibes are cool.

Track 1: He brought that in with him.

Track 2: They brought them in with him.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 1: He brought that in with him.

Track 2: No, no, no. I mean, like the guns are already there.

Track 1: The guns that are already there are not guns. The guns that are already there are fucking crossbows.

Track 3: Yeah, it's like crossbows and shit.

Track 1: Or like harpoon guns. He's the only one with an actual gun.

Track 2: You're right. And then the Duke steals it from him and he's like taking target

Track 2: practice shots at the president while he's like tied to the wall.

Track 1: Bouncing it on his foot, which is a great scene.

Track 2: I think being that there's not a lot of dialogue, I just think so many of the

Track 2: scenes to me are so stupid and silly, but for whatever reason,

Track 2: I just find them to be funny.

Track 2: And I love the constant gag of being like, I thought you were dead.

Track 2: And then in the second movie, it's like, yeah, what is it?

Track 2: The thing that happened in Nashville, fuck. There's like a running gag in the

Track 2: second one where they're like, go,

Track 2: where he keeps mentioning some something it happens at the end of this movie

Track 2: they like ask him about saying that he they have another thing for him right

Track 2: you know i'm talking about at the end of the movie offers.

Track 1: Him to be he offers kurt russell the opportunity to be uh what does he offer him job as his deputy,

Track 1: How offers him a job as his deputy?

Track 3: I know I just tried to kill you, but you want to be a cop?

Track 2: Do you view him as like an anti-hero?

Track 3: He's not a hero. He's a hero in the loosest terms. He's the protagonist that

Track 3: the story follows, and he's framed as a hero.

Track 3: But if you actually look at his actions, he subverts a prison revolution.

Track 2: Yeah.

Track 3: That's not good. Is that moral?

Track 1: He's not even, like, he's not an anti-hero. He's not a hero. Like, he's...

Track 3: He's a villain.

Track 1: Yeah. The only hero in this film is the woman that takes that plane down.

Track 2: I mean, what about the Duke? He was trying to liberate them.

Track 1: Was he?

Track 2: Or liberate himself, I guess, probably, right?

Track 1: Yeah. I don't know how much credit I'm willing to give the Duke for anything.

Track 3: Like did you see like his right hand man that like dude with the crazy hair who was annoying as fuck.

Track 2: If the dude.

Track 3: Was an absolutely rational reasonable guy that would not be his right hand man.

Track 2: You know a great story about that guy is so he was in i think another one of

Track 2: he was in assault on precinct 13 and he called him to be like hey do you want

Track 2: to be in this movie i need like a character who's sort of like the right hand man and he,

Track 2: the actor who is frank doubleday he created the entire look and character himself

Track 2: Carpenter's like do whatever you want and that's what he created the hairstyle the fucking just,

Track 2: Weird makeup, everything, all himself.

Track 3: Oh, yeah.

Track 2: Not a very good right-hand man, though.

Track 1: It's just, which, I mean, I feel like, like Ward said, like,

Track 1: if that's your right-hand man, that shows the entire tenor of,

Track 1: like, what you're doing as a person, like, in charge.

Track 1: And what you're doing is basically being top dog on a pile of rabid animals.

Track 1: Like, that's it. That's all he is.

Track 1: he's not doing anything out of the interest of the larger group.

Track 3: It's not like it's shown that he's the one that's organized the power grid that's

Track 3: available in that area, and he set up the greenhouses to be able to feed people.

Track 3: We see him organizing wrestling matches.

Track 2: Yeah, that's true. That's true. He's not exactly looking out for his people very much.

Track 2: He just wants to have fun. He's stuck in this prison. He's like,

Track 2: let's just do entertainment.

Track 3: Yeah probably the first time he had a limo.

Track 2: Wait another funny another like this is completely just it has nothing to do

Track 2: with anything but i noticed that there was a guy in this film at one point because

Track 2: they do the i thought you were dead thing it was when they're in,

Track 2: i think it's when he first lands in the prison and he's like going through that

Track 2: the theater and he's like kind of going through and he sees,

Track 2: these guys and he finds the guy who's wearing the wristband that dude who says,

Track 2: that he's the president he's the same actor who's in back to the future and

Track 2: lying on the bench and says like crazy drunk drivers you know what i'm talking

Track 2: about it's the same act yeah,

Track 2: same guy i had never noticed it until this time like it's poor guy i just gave

Track 2: this story i don't actually know his fucking name sorry guy from that's hilarious.

Track 3: I was not expecting that.

Track 2: Crazy drunk drivers have either of you seen the movie death wish from the 70s yes

Track 2: he so i was looking at wikipedia i've seen all the death wishes so carpenter

Track 2: says willis death wish carpenter said that was his one of his influences for writing the screen i saw.

Track 3: That and i was watching i saw that after like just before we started recording

Track 3: i was looking at an interview with john carpenter and he was saying that death

Track 3: wish was one of his inspirations um yeah i'm not picking that up in this movie at all.

Track 2: No and what and he says the thing he says was like at all he's like he's like

Track 2: i disagree with the film's philosophy but i liked how it had a sense of new

Track 2: york as a jungle and like oh like there's literally nothing else that i can

Track 2: think of that's related to that movie in any way yeah.

Track 1: That's literally nothing else in the beginning in the beginning when they go

Track 1: like the crime rate has gone up 400 and he was like oh really i wonder why and

Track 1: like this was made And like, New York City was,

Track 1: not in a good place then.

Track 1: And it's, it's like the notion it's like, well, yeah, you started stripping

Track 1: social services, you tanked the economy, you started taking everything away from people.

Track 1: And then things started happening. It's like, yeah, of course,

Track 1: like, you know, crime went up and it's like, they,

Track 1: he made this film and it's like, it really just feeds into all of the propaganda of the time.

Track 1: And the notions of, you know, poor people being, you know, basically animals.

Track 1: And it's like, well, you took everything away from people and they already,

Track 1: and it's not like they had, you know, they weren't rich before.

Track 1: You know, like, and then you just, they were already struggling and then you

Track 1: took what little they had away.

Track 2: Yeah. I mean, what do you expect people to do when they're, you know,

Track 2: left with no other option?

Track 3: You know, when all opportunities are stripped away. Apparently,

Track 3: John Carpenter thinks it's just barbarism.

Track 2: Yeah. I mean, that's again where I feel like his attempt at politics is,

Track 2: as you said, Bill, like it just muddled. Like there isn't really anything.

Track 3: This was how many years before they live?

Track 2: Maybe five. Let's see. This came out in 81 and they live was 88. So seven years.

Track 1: He had a lot. He had a long way to go.

Track 3: You can do a lot of reading in seven years.

Track 1: Absolutely.

Track 2: I mean, he did Big Trouble with Null China in 86. I mean, I think at that point,

Track 2: he already still had more interesting ways of, and I love how,

Track 2: I mean, we talked about this in that episode, you should go listen to it.

Track 2: Like the way that Kurt Russell is portrayed in that is so different than this.

Track 3: You know, that is like how he's portrayed.

Track 2: Yeah.

Track 3: He really knows John. God, he really understands how to work with Kurt Russell in that movie.

Track 2: Completely.

Track 3: Absolutely.

Track 2: Do you think that like a fiddle? Do you think that Russell understood the assignment?

Track 1: He did. We talked about that.

Track 3: We talked about that.

Track 1: Yeah, he did. Which is shocking for the fact. But I mean, also, Kurt Russell might be.

Track 1: Kurt Russell might be, you know, and is a, you know,

Track 1: an outspoken you know like hardcore republican nowadays but in 1987 or 1981

Track 1: was uh big trouble 1985 no big trouble 86 86 86 yeah in 1986 was he as much

Track 1: a republican like was he that,

Track 1: somehow i doubt it just because of just straight up material you know reason

Track 1: he you know he wasn't you know.

Track 2: He wasn't a.

Track 1: Millionaire as wealthy as he now yeah he wasn't a millionaire.

Track 2: And it changes your perception on things sometimes yeah he's like i want to

Track 2: keep my money i hate the government fuck you all.

Track 1: Yeah and you know like i i think and i which is why i think you know taking

Track 1: you know like in like the larger,

Track 1: perspective of carpenter films i think it's really interesting to examine the way big trouble,

Track 1: contrasts with this and takes because specifically because of the way he uses

Track 1: kurt russell how in this film kurt russell is put out there as like this guy

Track 1: you know cool dude you know he's like the guy,

Track 1: he's the man you're gonna like look at him in his tight pants and his ridiculous

Track 1: guns and he's so cool you know and then even afford sleeves

Track 1: yeah and then a big big trouble it's like look at this fucking asshole look

Track 1: at this fucking white dude that thinks he belongs here

Track 1: that he's loser yeah look at this fucking loser who's like just like fucking

Track 1: stumbles into shit and thinks that he's hot shit

Track 1: like that is that is the interesting thing to me is like what like seeing how

Track 1: carpenter has changed from this,

Track 1: to that and specifically and then and even more so using russell as a perfect,

Track 1: barometer for that,

Track 1: and it really it is such such a diametrically approach.

Track 3: It really is it's completely nine day.

Track 2: He he knew how to use russell i think you said He played him like a fiddle.

Track 2: He did. He fucking did. Uh, yeah, I mean.

Track 3: That Big Trouble's so good.

Track 2: I mean, if we're comparing this to that, obviously it's not a, it's not a contest, but.

Track 2: uh i i think but you go.

Track 1: Let's just say like i don't think it's even a comparison so much as just and

Track 1: you know it's it's an interesting way to like you know not a comparison so much.

Track 2: As right like just the contrast of the.

Track 1: A con putting things in context.

Track 2: Okay i love that the uh the you know at the very end when he's like walking

Track 2: away and he has the actual real tape which he could have been like listened

Track 2: to or done something with it he's like nope i'm just gonna rip the fucking this

Track 2: the film out of this tape and fucking throw in the trash.

Track 3: It goes to the very like what was it uh you're saying the like libertarian character of.

Track 2: Him completely.

Track 3: Yeah it's like did he make it out with anyone else that he said he was gonna

Track 3: help out if they helped him.

Track 2: I also like when he what.

Track 1: He did nothing for anybody.

Track 2: I like.

Track 3: Hey he gave that lady a cigarette which in that place yeah huge rich a real

Track 3: cigarette holy shit crazy she got sucked into the underground and that's terrifying.

Track 2: Yeah you don't know what's going on and it's like.

Track 3: His fault he was loud.

Track 2: I like at the end when Bob Hauk is like you know I thought you were gonna kill

Track 2: me when you got out he's like too tired not today,

Track 2: he just doesn't say a whole lot most of his doing and this is one of those other

Track 2: films where the like the it's supposed to like 22 hours that he has to do all this,

Track 2: and like a bunch of stuff happens in the first two hours and then just like

Track 2: 15 hours disappears and then a bunch of stuff happens in the last two hours

Track 2: i love movies where they're just the clock is just a completely meaningless artifact.

Track 3: Yeah i love the oversized like watch thing they made for him too,

Track 3: Cause like they could have easily just gave him like a smaller digital watch

Track 3: that does the same thing.

Track 3: But they're like, no, no, no, no. It's got a, it's got a show for the camera

Track 3: and make it 10 times the size it should be.

Track 2: And he also has the fucking like,

Track 2: Batman belt that like pops open with the little tracking device thing.

Track 3: Oh yeah.

Track 1: The Eagle insignia. Yeah.

Track 3: That thing.

Track 1: Oh yeah. Which is like the watch is so funny. Cause it's not like they didn't

Track 1: have digital watches in 19.

Track 2: They definitely did. They could have given one of those calculator watches.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 3: Oh yeah.

Track 1: It's not like, you know, it's not like 1920 and they're like,

Track 1: it's not like Dick Tracy. You're like, all right, we got to give this guy a

Track 1: technological thing. It's going to be big. Right. And we're like,

Track 1: how else are you going to make it work?

Track 3: It's got to be huge.

Track 1: That's one thing about this. They had digital watches.

Track 2: Well, not just that, It's supposed to take place in 1997, I believe, or...

Track 2: Yeah, 1997. Yes, 1997, yeah. They don't really do any futuristic-y things except

Track 2: for the little glider plane he flies in. Otherwise, nothing.

Track 1: It's not futuristic!

Track 3: The heads-up display, I would say, is kind of, yeah.

Track 2: You know the shit with the green when he's in the plane and shows the green outline?

Track 2: They built an entire cardboard model of New York City, and then they put lights

Track 2: on it and then shot it in the dark to use that for it. They had no money for the script.

Track 2: Oh, and I have to tell you the other funny fact for people. The scene at the

Track 2: end when they're going across the bridge, like they're trying to cross the bridge

Track 2: from the landmines, that bridge they bought from the u.s government for one

Track 2: dollar to use for this phone,

Track 2: i don't know why i love that fact it's like yeah you can you can buy this bridge

Track 2: for one dollar do whatever you want where.

Track 1: Where was the what bridge where was the bridge.

Track 2: It's the bridge was called old chain bridge and it's in miss it's in um it's

Track 2: in missouri on mississippi river so i think they actually gave them the bridge

Track 2: back so they like bought it and then they gave it back it's very strange.

Track 1: So like it was like what just like a decommissioned bridge this is the most.

Track 2: Fascinating fact.

Track 3: Yeah I like that idea what do you do with a bridge how do you,

Track 3: bridge things obviously bill how do you get a bridge over something.

Track 2: Like they were they were supposed to they were going to demolish it and then

Track 2: i think the government just took it over but then didn't demolish it because

Track 2: they probably cost too much at first.

Track 3: I thought you're like super excited because you're looking for where the fuck

Track 3: can i buy a bridge for a dollar and it's like oh man somebody can sell this guy a bridge.

Track 2: What's that that way now it's worse.

Track 3: You're asking what to do with the bridge you cross it man.

Track 2: All of the um the filming like the the thing they were saying is they only got

Track 2: six million dollar budget and they had spent most of it before they even did

Track 2: a lot of the special effects so they just didn't have a lot of special effects and it kind of shows.

Track 3: Yeah did you yeah oh yeah it definitely shows did you see the taxi hitting.

Track 2: The landmine and.

Track 3: It just perfectly cuts the taxi in half.

Track 2: Wait so here's another up speaking of that scene another great one so maggie

Track 2: who's played by adrian barbeau,

Track 2: the scene where she dies on the bridge they originally weren't going to show

Track 2: her body and they're like it's too ambiguous we need to see her body and they

Track 2: already finished filming so they went to her house in hollywood and they put,

Track 2: like gore on her and filmed her in the driveway and then.

Track 3: Honestly that's fantastic.

Track 1: That's pretty great.

Track 3: Like that that is that's some worker appreciation you know what hey we fucked

Track 3: up we need to put this in we'll come to you to make this happen.

Track 2: Yeah.

Track 3: We'll do it in your driveway.

Track 2: They did it for like, yeah, they probably were there for two hours putting makeup

Track 2: on her and then they just throw her on the ground and put something over her.

Track 3: Besides the New York jungle, the showing her dead body is probably the most

Track 3: death wish thing about this movie.

Track 2: I do love the, like that simulated thing in the plane of like when he's trying to land it.

Track 3: Yeah. That was enjoyable as hell.

Track 2: Yeah. It doesn't like look great, but it's pretty cool.

Track 3: Yeah. It wasn't like anything spectacular, mind blown, but like.

Track 2: I think they also use a bunch of like Matt, paintings maybe that's the scene

Track 2: they use like a bunch of matte paintings that they would they render to use

Track 2: for special effects like james cameron i think used the same kind of stuff and

Track 2: they use like a black light tape behind it so it looked really something like that.

Track 1: That's pretty cool.

Track 2: I'm no expert some of the notes i wrote down are like what do the prisoners

Track 2: eat and i love the duke's car with chandeliers on the hood because it's fucking i love.

Track 1: The chandeliers the chandeliers are actually i think my favorite part of them.

Track 2: What about when the the The silly gun is my favorite. When the president just

Track 2: takes out the Duke from like...

Track 3: Oh, yeah, he just lights him up.

Track 2: Yeah, lights him up.

Track 1: All of a sudden, the president has like grown a set of balls and he's like, Oh, I'm a number one.

Track 3: First, you snake his bait. He just shuts off the winch instead of letting Snake

Track 3: just come on up. And he's just like, no, I'm going to use this guy's bait.

Track 2: You're like, don't think he's going to make it. Of course, he gets the shot

Track 2: in his neck five seconds before it's too late.

Track 2: See, at first, I thought that was a whole was a bluff. the first time I watched

Track 2: the movie that it was just a way to get him to do it, but it didn't seem like

Track 2: it was a bill. That seemed like high-tech shit.

Track 3: Yes, that was the most high-tech thing. Yeah, that and then with the bio monitor,

Track 3: which even that's not that high-tech.

Track 3: Maybe the pod out of Air Force 4.

Track 1: Oh yeah, the pod. The pod did feel pretty high-tech.

Track 1: The pod, it did fail abysmally, but you know.

Track 3: It failed so bad.

Track 3: But then, what was it? Yeah, no, the neck thing, kind of weird,

Track 3: because it's like, they said it's like a capsule that, like,

Track 3: dissolves. But, like, that's not, like, they didn't use an injector that would, like, inject a capsule.

Track 3: They used, like, those super, those were, like, those old school,

Track 3: like, jet guns that they used to give people vaccinations with.

Track 2: Yes, yes.

Track 3: You know what I'm talking about? I can't remember the actual term for it.

Track 3: Yeah, it just uses pressure.

Track 3: It doesn't use a needle at all. it just uses pressure to shoot liquid into your

Track 3: body yeah that's what they're using on his neck and so it's like couldn't get

Track 3: a capsule just nick picking it's hollywood,

Track 3: did you see the fucking gun like come on you think they're gonna get fucking medical devices right.

Track 2: No pretty high tech what,

Track 2: was it called the base there was like at the statue of liberty they had a sign

Track 2: up I can't remember where it was like it was pretty high tech stuff inside there,

Track 2: also like the radar guys like we can't we can't get a lock on them on the plane

Track 2: like as soon as the guy's walking out we got him he.

Track 1: Was genuinely sad when cabby died yeah.

Track 2: I like cabby didn't deserve it what did.

Track 3: Cabby do to get sent there,

Track 3: Like when you're talking about like, yeah, when people get, I had the same thought,

Track 3: especially when I saw cabbie and I'm like.

Track 1: What did that guy do?

Track 3: Cabbie do.

Track 1: I love that. His name is cabbie. That, that implies that in the entire Island

Track 1: of Manhattan, one guy, like that's, that's, they're like, he's the only cabbie.

Track 1: He's the only guy that drops.

Track 3: Are you still driving that cab? 30 years. Same cab. I love that for him.

Track 3: It's fantastic. He up armors the whole thing. He's got Molotovs ready to go

Track 3: now. He's got it ready for prison work.

Track 2: Maybe he wasn't put in prison. He was just like still there and they opened

Track 2: the prison. They're like, yeah, just leave them.

Track 3: That's one thing I was thinking too, is like how many people got left behind

Track 3: in New York when they put up the walls?

Track 2: Yeah, that's definitely possible. Why?

Track 3: Because a government that's willing to turn Manhattan, of all fucking places,

Track 3: into a fucking mega prison for the entire country's prison population.

Track 3: Yeah, I don't think they're going to do a clean sweep to make sure every single

Track 3: last soul is out of there.

Track 2: They got the rich people out and the rest of the people could just fucking drown.

Track 1: 100%.

Track 2: They just put a wall up, right? And then they blew up a wall, right?

Track 3: They mined the tunnels and bridges and shit like that and put up massive walls

Track 3: around everything and then had 24-hour,

Track 3: armed guards and helicopters conducting airstrikes, which like,

Track 3: hey, at least those prisoners got,

Track 3: a fucking warning shot before they got airstruck on their raft.

Track 3: Like as dystopian and authoritarian as John Carpenter like envisions that this

Track 3: government is like modern day America is worse with what we're doing with Venezuelan and fishermen.

Track 2: Yeah, that's very true.

Track 3: We were double tapping.

Track 1: That's fucked up. That's really something that really puts shit in perspective.

Track 3: Yeah. I'm sorry to put a down note at the end of the episode.

Track 2: And with that, no. Yeah, I don't have any other notes in my thing here.

Track 3: We basically covered all of my notes.

Track 2: Yeah most of the thing that I was like most of the things I left were just like

Track 2: the filming notes that I already mentioned yeah call me snake call me plissken.

Track 3: I want to know what's on the tape.

Track 1: At some point they play the tape for like.

Track 2: A couple of seconds but not very long.

Track 1: Instructions.

Track 3: For cold fusion.

Track 1: I guess we don't actually know but we know like we know 10 seconds.

Track 3: Yeah it's like a description of effects of cold fusion or something like.

Track 1: Which like they barely go into in the movie like why they like they barely cover.

Track 3: I like my idea.

Track 1: I think i like your idea as well that's what i'm going it's reparations.

Track 3: Hey we fucked up and got her pee pee slapped,

Track 3: sorry for invading sorry for invading leningrad uh we'll give you cold fusion.

Track 2: Yeah i got nothing left here but uh you all should go um again check out hugo's,

Track 2: see the main shirts youtube channel it's a blast it's an excellent.

Track 1: First episode uh excellent very well produced the uh his cast of puppets has

Track 1: expanded he has more than the uh the original two very uh very well done.

Track 3: Definitely go over there and support him.

Track 2: Well for uh for evan bill ward guess we'll catch you all next time.

Track 3: Have a good one.

Track 1: Have a good.

Track 2: One smell you later.