It's been said many times that it is important that people know, like and trust you. Likeability and reliability don't seem like the sexiest of success traits and yet, they are some of the most underrated ones, especially when we move away from the stereotypes of successful people being uncaring and lacking in empathy and we are awakening to the need to have a good relationship with our customers and the people whose products and services we buy.

My guest Jackie Goddard has always had a passion for theatre and the dramatic arts and she saw a great opportunity to bring her experience and knowledge from that industry over to the world of communication skills and presentation training. Jackie's business and her podcast both share the name 'The Power to Speak' and if you want to hear me being a guest on Jackie's show, you can go here: https://apple.co/3vGA036

In this episode:

• How one person can directly affect the course of your life for good or bad
• Likeability & reliability as influence tools
• What it's like working with Dame Judi Dench
• What can we learn from theatre and the arts?
• How to bring out our joy and uniqueness
• You have to memorise to _________?
• What improv does to your brain

and more...

The Ted talk Jackie mentions is by Charles Limb and can be seen on YouTube: https://youtu.be/BomNG5N_E_0

Jackie also mentions several books (if you buy them using our affiliate links it helps to support the show):

• Plato's Lemonade Stand by Tom Morris https://amzn.to/3MnA2CV
• The God of Small Things by Arrundhati Roy https://amzn.to/35SeJbL
• The Secret by Rhonda Byrne https://amzn.to/35SeMUZ (regular listeners will know my thoughts on this book but make up your own mind)

Coming soon, my first book review episode about How to win friends and influence people and a very fun and insightful chat with Alex Sanfilippo from Podmatch and Podpros. Don't miss them

Get the best help with your business branding by visiting our sponsor Brand Face HTTP://learnaboutbrandface.com

Mentioned in this episode:

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Welcome to the show.

My name's Johnny Ball.

This is a Speaking Influence.

The show that helps you to build your influence and authority

and master the skill so ethical influence and persuasion to become a

powerfully persuasive communicator.

This week, we are on the topic of communication very much.

And you will know if you've tuned into the show before that I love

talking about public speaking and I often talk to you professional

speakers and speaking trainers.

And today I get the pleasure of chatting with

an excellent speaking and presentation skills trainer who has moved from

a career in the dramatic arts into bringing those skills and talents

with her to help other people become amazing communicators and to bring

some performance into their talks and presentations, which is really essential.

If you've tuned into the show before you'd also know that we will often

have conversations with people from all sorts of aspects of influence and

persuasion, not just public speaking.

So we'll chat to neuroscientists and psychologists, we'll chat with

marketers and branding experts, with political speech writers, professors

of rhetoric, authors, even the occasional secret service agent or ex

cult member, one thing we tried to do is make sure the conversation is

always interesting and valuable to you.

And this one certainly is it was a very pleasurable, enjoyable conversation.

Now, if you're sitting around listening to this thing, grab yourself a cup

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If you're on the move and you happen to have your mobile device in your hand

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My guest Jackie Goddard has a business called Power to Speak and a podcast with

the same name and she is on a mission to make entrepreneurs, leaders and

speakers excited about sharing that ideas.

So I hope you'll enjoy this conversation as much as we did,

all that's left for me to say is enjoy the show.

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solution for your business today.

Welcome to Speaking Influence, the show where we are helping you

build your influence and master the ethical skills of persuasion.

And today I am joined with a guest who is helping other people to be able

to communicate more effectively, more powerfully, And she has a history in.

The, in the arts, really, she's a history of acting and performing

and designing and dressing.

And we're going to talk about some of this stuff as well I think one,

let's keep everything related to the influence and persuasion stuff.

But we have lots of good things to talk about today.

So let me welcome to the show, Jackie Goddard.

Thanks so much for having me.

Jackie, thank you for coming on the show.

Really glad to have you here.

Now you sent me over some very helpful information and three things

that were interesting about you.

That, one of them being that your dad was a stunt man.

I have to correct you.

My dad is a stunt man

Your dad is a stunt man.

Still?

Still.

Yes.

I, he would hate me if I told you how old he was, but yes, he's obviously yeah.

Stunting for, for older actors now put it that way.

Well, Fantastic.

I was just wondering if there was an interesting conception story

there, but we won't go into that.

not that I know of.

No,

not that you know, of.

But but nonetheless, an interesting career to have been in And is that

what led you into a career in the arts?

I don't know.

I suppose there must've been an influence there.

I certainly wanted to be an actor when I was younger and he

obviously he worked away a lot.

But yeah, I don't know whether it.

Whether it was because of him, I think has, I think mainly what came from my dad

was the storytelling and just that kind of interest In the history of the people that

we live around, you know, our grandparents are my, I can remember sitting around

the dinner on a Sunday, you know, Sunday afternoon roast dinners and just talking

and recounting stories from the past.

And obviously stories from work that he'd been doing and things like that.

And he just loved to tell stories.

And I think that sparked an interest in me, but I think it was more,

probably more genetic than anything.

It's an interest in people, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that's definitely a good thing to have in and important for the things

that you're doing now Undoubtedly, it would be, you mentioned you have some

fashion design background as well, but and part of your career history was

being a dresser at the RSC and you have dressed some very well-known people,

one in particular being Dame Judi Dench.

So we have to ask you a little bit about how that was, what was the

experience like working with Dame Judi?

Oh, well, as you would imagine, she was lovely.

She, I can't say a bad word against her.

She was lovely.

And the thing with the RSC, I don't know if you've ever been backstage.

It was at The Barbican back then, I think they've all gone from the Barbican.

Now, the backup in Stratford as they always were.

But.

Judy was in a dressing room with the girls.

So there was a girl's dressing room.

There was a boys dressing room, a and there was a dressing room

for the young spear carriers basically, but everybody else was,

everybody was kind of in together.

And yeah, Judi was just one of the, one of the actors.

And that was the fabulous thing about the Royal Shakespeare company.

And still is that the cast list was always alphabetical.

So if there was somebody whose name began with a, you know, an a or a B, then they,

their name was above Judi Dench's name.

So it was a real ensemble.

And if I learn anything from the Royal Shakespeare company, that was, that was my

big takeaway was that there were no stars and actually to bring a production to

the stage, they all had to work together.

The actors at the backstage dressers, you know, wardrobe, lighting,

everybody was, on that there for the same reason to produce that show,

It sounds like that was a Wonderful atmosphere being, being in

there, working with wonderful people like that and having that part of a team

sort of feeling which is always good.

Now, if I'm right this is.

part of what Prompted you and inspired you to become a performer yourself and to go

more into the acting and performing route.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I, it, th it was the way it happened when I went to the careers

officer at school, when I was 16 and my mum, I can run, my mum came with

me and we sat in the office with this, this lady, and she was obviously what

do you, when you leave school and I said, I want to be an actor.

And she just, she kind of gave me this look as if to say really.

So she kind of said, do you belong to any drama groups?

And I said, no D have you been in a school play?

And I said, oh yeah, I've been in school plays.

Do you go to the theater much?

No.

She said, no, you don't want to be an actor.

She said, if you wanted to be an actor, you'd live and breathe the theater.

What else can you do?

And I was so shocked and my mum was sat behind me saying, well, she's very good.

And I just said, well, I'm, I'm not, I'm not bad at art.

And she said, okay, well, we'll have a, we'll have a look at the art colleges

polytechnics as they were back then.

And so I ended up going and doing an art foundation course

instead of going to drama school.

And from that ended up going into fashion and becoming a designer.

Which was the worst thing ever.

Cause that's, it's not a particularly nice business to be in.

And I ended up designing for the high street, basically.

So it was three quarter length sleeves and a patch pocket and

here, and, you know, there was just no creativity in it whatsoever.

So I ended up leaving and a friend of mine that I'd been at fashion

college with was working at The Barbican at the Royal Shakespeare

company in the wardrobe department.

So she got me some cover work as a dresser.

And it was actually, while I was there dressing in what was the pit,

which was the theater in the base?

Well, there have been the whole of The Barbican was in the basement basically,

but this was right at the bottom.

That was like their studio theater.

And that's where Judy Dench was.

That's where the play that they were doing was, but I can remember

standing in the wings and just listening to a couple of young actors.

They were, similar age to me, a bit younger maybe.

And I thought I can do that.

Why w what am I doing?

Sorting out people's socks and pants and getting them into

quick changes and all that too.

You know, when that's what I want to do, I used to sit in the technical

rehearsals and just watch the director and, just sit in the empty

auditorium, just watching them rehearse.

And so that was when I decided to go to drama school.

I thought if I'm going to do it, it would be.

The biggest regret if I don't actually make the effort and go for it.

So that's how I ended up,

but it's not I, in that one, yeah, one person then kind of

diverted your dreams and desires to go into what you really wanted to,

by saying, I no, you can't do that.

You should do this.

And how much we give, especially when we're younger.

We give credence to those two older people that, oh, well, you

know what you're talking about?

You know what you think?

So you must be right and.

then Takes you years.

there's.

Luckily you came back to what you wanted, but not everybody does.

Some people may be ended up going into staying in those things for

life because one person told them about this is what you should do.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's horrendous.

I mean, I remember careers advice at school.

I don't know if you have this, but like you have to fill in these forms

and everything got processed through a computer and then it would come back

and, or you'd have a special class where it would deliver your results,

and tell you what you were going to be when you left school or how.

the rest of your life.

For the rest of your life?

I think My mind was something like a lawyer or policeman

or something like that.

I mean, it was So that's why I thought that's what I was supposed to be.

because we tend to not always know when we're that young or even

if we do, we tend to believe the information that comes out is when

people are telling us we know better.

Yeah.

And I think there was a thing that within me that I felt, I felt it so passionately

that, you know, this is what I wanted.

I can remember going into the theater when I was about 14 and the butterflies

in my stomach of excitement of just thinking, that's where I want to be.

But actually I think, because it meant so much to me.

I was frightened of doing it back then.

I was frightened of making a fool of myself or being told that actually,

you know, why, why, w w what makes you think you could be good enough?

So, I suppose when that careers officer told me that, or said

that to me, I did believe her.

I thought, well, what, what makes me special to think that I could

be an actor, And as you say, that happens to so many people.

And it's part of what I do now.

And through the teaching and through everything is just giving people the

permission to go back to what they wanted to be when they were that age.

And just, just do it.

Just go for it.

Yeah, absolutely.

I see.

It's interesting to talk about how these things can influence our lives, the

whole direction of our lives, and we all have that potential to be an influence.

I think we see just there an example of how he could be a good influence or a not

so good influence on somebody's life, but I'm wondering in general, Somebody who

has been a good influence or someone who you would look up to admire in respect

of their influence and persuasion.

Who would you choose Is someone from your own life, someone

from public life or history.

Who would you select?

Well, I mean, obviously my dad has got to be

got to be one of them because he.

He started I mean, he was one of nine.

They all nine children's shared one bedroom.

I think his bed was on the windowsill at one point.

And he.

He knew that he didn't want to stay doing what he was doing, what was expected of

him and exactly in that way, he was, he went from, he left school at 15, went

into a job it's sort of engineering, but in a factory and just had been there a

couple of months, I think, and was stood.

I mean, he tells this story that quite often, uh, but stood around the pot boiler

thing in the mid, you know, the, the wood burner in the, in the center where they

all sort of stood run, have their tea.

And he said to one of the old guys, you know, how long have you been here?

And he said, all like 30 years, man, and boy kind of thing.

And he said, okay.

He said and where do you live locally?

And the guy said, yeah, I live just, just down the road there, around that corner.

And my dad said, oh, he's, he'd been there long.

He said, no, no.

He said, I, I, uh, I moved.

He said, well, where did you live before?

He said, I would just, just run that corner.

And it was just, I think it just kind of.

It made him realize that actually, if he stayed there, then there

was nothing else with it.

Literally that was sick.

That would be his world.

And he went home that evening.

Did this on on the evening standard and such himself, whatever,

wherever my finger lands, that's the job that I'm going to do.

And thinking that he could end up on an oil rig or, you know,

doing something in Alaska.

I mean, he'd really didn't care.

He just knew he had to do something different.

And his finger landed on London.

School of charm requires model.

So he called them and ended up going for this modeling job, which he

got, which he didn't expect to get.

And from that, that kind of led him into extra work and then into film and

television until he was, you know, Doing stunt coordinating for the bonds and sort

of different things to, you know, where you've sort of got to in his career.

And so to me, that that was always kind of, wow, you know, that's, that's doable.

He went to a drama school, age 30 when I was a child.

And, you know, he had a family and responsibilities, but he knew that

there was more and also I looked to him because he is just such a nice person.

And that's th that just sounds so weak really, but he is just approachable.

And actually within the, I've seen him work, I've, you know,

I've been on two sets and seen him work and people just like him.

They just really like working with him, which is how I think that

you, you get from job to job or you get to where you want to be,

because people want to be around.

You know, and especially in, in those kinds of atmospheres where

you're working very closely and very intensely with people is

you've got to be likable, you know?

And I think that's, that's certainly something I've always

sort of looked to him for.

Yeah.

Yeah, likability is very underrated quality.

but you know, the, I R you've done?

I mean, well, over a hundred shows now are about influence and persuasion.

And undoubtedly likability is one of the qualities of influence and

persuasion being, being likable.

I mean, Warren buffet is famous for saying that he only ever works with people.

that he likes trusts.

But just just general for ease of life and for, social and even professional

lubrication to get places being nice, being likable is super important.

And we sometimes I think we sometimes associate that with

being bland, which it is.

No, it doesn't, say it doesn't have to be nice.

Nice.

Isn't this sort of insipid.

We just kind of polite about everything that is more of a an

activity and a general attitude of caring about people and liking people

and being interested in them, which is which we've referenced as well.

So I can see how your dad then has been an amazing influence on you and your life.

And, and definitely sounds like a very positive.

impact.

Yes.

Yeah, definitely.

Definitely.

I mean, I think there is that thing as well.

And I know from, from working in theater because I, I didn't just, I only did

a small part of acting really, but a lot of the theater work I did was

within sort of costume and, and finding costumes for people, making costumes.

And I never interviewed for a job.

I literally went from job to job because people knew that I would

turn up on time, do the job well, and I was good to work with.

I was fun to be around, I suppose.

So, you know, and I think, I think reliability and all of those things that

as you say, people kind of look at as a slightly bland are good things to have,

if you want to influence people otherwise, you know, you're not going to

achieve that.

They are they're underrated qualities.

And I think the world, I certainly hope and feel that the world is moving away

from this idea that to be successful in things you need to be hard-nosed and

uncaring and self-serving and mean to people, a complete diva all the time.

And There are certainly people who still, I think a lot of people who

go down that path as well, do it because they think that's how you're

supposed to be to get what you want.

But certainly there are people who go there because that's who they are.

But for the most part, now, people, people want relationship more than ever.

people want connection more than ever.

And and so if you're not likable, you're gonna really struggle with

things like connection with people and building and developing network and

relationship, which I think are the,

Some of the most important things for life and business.

Judy dench is a perfect, perfect, example of that

because she everybody loved being around her because she was funny.

She'd make jokes.

And she made the work fun and that's, that's why people love her to this day.

And that's how she moves from job to job.

Has never, ever been out of work.

I shouldn't think, and it's all about giving value as well.

So it's all about not being there for yourself, but

being there for other people.

I think.

What I saw from your information is that you've always been someone who

likes sharing knowledge and helping people and teaching people along the way.

And that's something you're very focused on now.

So you are helping people to bring out their creativity

to improve their Speaking.

What made you decide to move from.

Working in the acting and performing world into doing this?

Well, I mean, early on, I realized that I wasn't necessarily

going to be paying my bills by acting.

And actually I always realized in the end that I was really more of

a director than I was an actor.

And there is something around directing and teaching.

You know, it's kind of bringing together a sort of a vision

and bringing people into that.

And so you are then, You're bringing people in together.

You're sort of work again.

It's that ensemble thing.

And so it, it was quite a simple move into the teaching side of things.

It was quite easy then to be the person that was at the front of the

class saying to everybody, right.

We need to work together.

How can we do that?

And what is it that you need to be able to, to make this work?

So I got into teaching really to supplement the acting work that I was

doing and going to auditions and things like that, but actually to work with a

group of people to bring a production to life was what I ended up doing.

and in lockdown,.

And that's what I was doing right up until lockdown.

But working with adults mainly some young people with learning disabilities

and when it came to lockdown, obviously all of my work stopped because all of

the venues were closed or the workshops I were doing just were canceled.

And so in lockdown, I really had to sort of think about

what it was about the job that I enjoyed most and in this sort of

new networking zoom world that I'd taken on into lockdown because

otherwise I was just sat home alone.

So I did a lot of sort of networking, which I love doing, because I love

meeting people and starting the podcast.

It seemed like a really, I was hearing lots of people saying this, you know,

this is a whole new world we need.

It's not, it's not now if you're running your own business, it's not now about

the poster, the flyer, the advert in the paper, it's now customers are expecting

to see who it is that they're buying for.

We buy from people that we know like and trust.

And so small business owners, bigger business owners, anybody now is kind of

expected to show up for their customer.

And so what I do.

In my acting world of looking at people and saying, I can

get you to that performance.

It just seemed that what I had learnt as an actor, the training that I was given

to become an actor and the feelings and the processes I went through from standing

on a stage I could see was going to be really, really beneficial to everybody.

You know, from the learning tech, you know, from breathing from,

from the vocals, the technical vocal side of being able to project

clarity, diction, articulation, but also that feeling of being relaxed

enough to just show up as yourself.

In front of any kind of audience, whatever that audience might be.

It might be an audience of one.

It might be an audience of many.

It might be looking down a camera lens and, and not knowing who or

what you're talking to out there, but just giving people that confidence.

So that's yeah, that's, that was the process really is to, is to go

from, from teaching and bringing people to that performance, to then

transferring it to a kind of a business.

Yeah.

And and what sorts of transformation are you helping people to achieve then?

What, are the things that they're starting off with that you're able to

help them move on from or improve upon?

I suppose the biggest thing is nerves.

Is I think it's a well-known fact that people are actually more scared

of standing on a stage and speaking publicly than they are of actually dying.

I mean, it's just, it's that severe.

It's, so first of all, it's about.

Calming people that are enough that, and letting them know

that it's it's all right.

They can, they can stand on stage and say what they've got to say,

what they have to say is important.

So if a lot of what I do in the beginning is just making people feel comfortable.

I've been working recently with a somebody in a company that has kind of

been pushed forward to be the face of the YouTube channel within their business.

And the guy has all of the knowledge.

He knows absolutely everything about his business inside and out.

And he's been doing this YouTube videos and well done to him to actually do that.

But what he's come to me for is to, to make them interesting.

And in order to do that, I need to make him feel comfortable doing.

I need to find what it is in him that makes him in that

will make him enjoy doing them.

Because it's very evident at the moment that he's not enjoying them.

And obviously if he's not enjoying them, the audience aren't going to enjoy them.

I mean, that was a big thing I learned from, from acting is if you're not

enjoying what you're doing on the stage, even if you're portraying something

quite sad and quite horrific, if you're not enjoying the process of, of telling

that story, then the audience went into.

Either.

So it's, it is about finding something in, in the people that

I'm working with that says, right.

Okay.

What, what is it that's going to make you enjoy this?

What is the part of what you're sharing important enough for you

to put yourself through this?

And how can we, how can we turn that around so that you

actually begin to enjoy it?

Yeah.

So would you, would you say then that enjoyment of what you do is

the critical piece for most people?

Yeah.

So it's enjoyable.

Yeah.

Enjoyments, another one of those words, isn't it really?

I mean, it's, I know.

But from personal experience, if I had a monologue or an audition piece that I

needed to do, or, you know, a production that was, was going on and I was going

to be on the stage, I was that actor.

Then I had to get to the point and I heard this recently memorize to improvise.

And it really is all about knowing your stuff so well, learning those

lines, if you have to, but getting what it is that you want to put across.

So ingrained in your head that you can play, that you are

relaxed enough with your content.

That actually it doesn't matter what the audience throw at you.

It doesn't matter if you trip up walking up the steps, you know, it's so, so

there in your head and you are so excited to let other people know what

it is that you are wanting to share,

that is.

It kind of exudes from you rather than, you know, when we, when we're

nervous and we, we don't want us to look up, we don't want to engage

with people because we think they're going to judge us or whatever.

It's getting to that point where you can kind of open up to your audience

and say, look what I've got to tell you.

Isn't this exciting.

So I don't know if it's so much of it is enjoyment, but yeah, just getting

to a point where you can relax enough.

I can see that and I could see how enjoyment is important and I

can see like that that's part of where the enthusiasm comes from as well.

And to be able to just based on my experience some people I've worked with

over the years, if you don't have that, if you've got, and have the enjoyment

and the enthusiasm for what you're doing, you're not even going to put in the time

that you actually need to put in To be able to get to those levels where you can,

as you say, play, you can improvise, you could riff off stuff because you know,

it well enough to be able to do that.

Most, most people are still stuck in that sort of conscious competence stage

of having to be very aware of what they're doing, by having to stay within

certain boundaries because they haven't reached the, what we call unconscious

competence, where they just know it and they don't have to think about it.

as this is what I'm always very aware of We have people who say,

oh, I just wing it all the time.

really?

You do.

You might be fine doing that, but how much better could you be if

you actually really took the time to practice rehearse master stuff.

I always think about, I've had a few people on the show as guests who

have done like improv and and that's been fascinating to learn from.

And I'm guessing with your background, you've probably done your share of improv

before as well, but this whole thing of.

The best improvisers, are the people who do it Yeah.

And why is that?

Because they're practiced in doing it.

And they have all these ideas jiggling around their head that they can

just pull on stuff more quickly.

And so to some degree, the best improvisers are the most rehearsed.

Yeah.

Um, and it's one of the, you know, if people are asking me for tips of

improvisation is one of my biggest tips for anybody is because it freeze, it

just frees your brain, you know, once you practice at it, once you get rid of that

kind of inhibition of just standing up and saying the first thing that comes out,

you know, it comes into your head, then your brain gets used to working that way.

And so then in any situation that you're put in, you are able to small talk

to do all of those things that people kind of go, oh no, I can't do that.

It's just get out there and start practicing.

We improvise every day of it.

I'm improvising right now.

I have no script as you can probably tell.

But you know, we, we open our mouth in conversation and we don't always

plan what we're going to say.

In fact, most of the time we don't.

And so we're improvising all the time.

And we just play with it.

That's the thing is I love to get people into a room.

No matter what they do in their day-to-day lives is just, make it up

as you go along just to have a play.

I mean, they did, there is a Ted talk out there, which is brilliant.

And it's a guy called I think benefits professor or Dr.

Charles Lamb.

He did a very small research project on improvisation.

And he puts, he took some rappers and some jazz pianists and put them into

a scanner body, scanner, or MRI to think, to look at their brain patterns.

And he got them.

First of all, to play a rehearsal.

That they obviously rehearsed went into the scanner and he set up a keyboard on

the lap so that the P pianists could play.

And then he got them to just.

So then they went back in and they did the improvising.

He did it with the rappers and the pianists.

And what he saw in the brain scan was the, when they were improvising the part

of, and I can't remember which part of the brain, but the part of the brain

that is our inner critic temporarily shuts down while you're improvising.

So it actually does affect the.

So yeah, improvising just got to be done.

Find a local

Interesting.

Well, what was

happening?

just do it.

Yeah, we'll have to try and find a link to that for the,

the show notes for people who want to check out the Ted talk as well.

Yeah.

Improvisation is very powerful thing.

I mean, one thing is one thing, being confident that you know

what you're talking about.

It's quite another thing to be confident, delivering it to the

level that you're talking about.

And, And that's why I'm kind of glad to be discussing that.

on deeper level thing than perhaps we've discussed on some previous shows

of this, this delivery aspect of it.

We talk about.

We often hear people talking about being yourself, but we don't always

get into exactly what that means, but I think we're hitting on it very strongly

here with being able to improvise and riff is where you bring your

personality into things, rather than just delivering information or presenting

a well-practiced speech is that.

beyond that, to the level where you can, know something distracts you or something

you don't suddenly have to spend.

Five five minutes finding where you were in your notes and looking at Boris

Johnson there for that, you know, you want to, but You want to be able to have

a distraction come up and still be able to know exactly where you are and go straight

back into it or even to incorporate the distraction and play off it in some

way so that it becomes an entertaining part of your presentation, knowing how

to do all of those sorts of things.

comes with improvisation with repeated practice, right.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, you look at the people that we most love to watch.

I mean, certainly me, if, if I'm watching, I mean, I love Ted talks,

but they are, you know, they're a year in the, making those at least a

year in the making those Ted talks.

People have rehearsed that 20 minutes.

You know, and, and there are there's people out there, like, I don't

know if you ever watched a, so Ken Robinson, do his talk on creativity, do

absolute favourite ever

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, he just is such a natural, but he knows he's he's rehearsed

that he's just rehearsed it so much.

Brenae Brown.

I mean, again, just somebody that is so authentically herself and knows

her stuff inside out that actually, it, it, it kind of comes across.

She can, she can talk and make you feel like she's making it up as she goes

along, but she's not, you know, she's.

Incredibly, you know, she's rehearsed a lot to make it sound that natural.

So yeah, I mean, emulation, I think is another great thing though, is to,

is to find those people that, that you love to listen to and see how they see

how they work, see how they talk, how they present, you know, you need to

be authentic to you, but you will be.

But yeah, just find those people that you look up to that, that you can kind of.

The way that they present themselves and how they shape their 20 minute

talk or, you know, how, how they.

Yeah, I think there's there's a big point to this of acting it

being modeling it until you are it for yourself, because it's like learning

a dance, you have to learn the moves and you have to learn them bit by bit.

And then when you learn them, it's going to be a bit, maybe a bit clunky at first.

But as you do more of it, you get smoother and smoother.

And at some point.

The dance dances is you, instead of you dancing the dance because it's so

in your body and set inside of you, that you don't have to think about it.

The moves are pre-programmed We do it when we're driving as well for those

of us who drive, you know, you don't generally have to think about that.

You just do these things automatically, and that's when.

you get.

That extra level of knowing where you don't have to give it so much

conscious attention, but people don't generally want to go through all

the process that's attached to it.

I think that drive and we do it because we know we have to.

But sometimes there are things we want that we don't necessarily

have to go through the process.

But I think even with influence and persuasion, there are there

there are elements that you have to go through procedures practice

you have to go through to get good at.

this.

Whilst there are some people who are naturally very gifted in these areas, they

will always be overtaken by the people who practice if they don't work on it as well.

So, and I think that's true in in any part of life.

I mean, we've seen this Well, the talent code and we talk with if you

hear about Carol Decker Carol Dweck, even she, she talked about that, that

you, you will always be overtaken if you don't actually put in the work by

the people who are, who do So natural talent will only get you so far.

And I think that's where, that's where we find ourselves with most.

of those people expect to be good at something straight away.

And then when they're not oh, well, I'm just not good at that.

It's like, well, yeah, but you could be, if you really want to be.

I think it's what lots of people are expected to work on to talk

or make presentations for their work.

And.

Sometimes it's not necessarily what they want to be talking about or something

that they necessarily believe in, but it is expected of them as part of their job.

And so what I try to do with those kinds of people is because you need to

believe what it is that you're saying, because again, going back to acting,

if you don't believe what you're saying, Then the audience, aren't

going to believe what you're saying.

So even if you're playing a character that isn't, you, you still need to believe

the words that are coming out of your mouth because the audience aren't gonna

believe it, believe it, if you don't.

And so we, you do need to find something, even if it is work-related

and it's not something that you're necessarily interested in, you

need to find a nugget within that, that you can grab hold of that

you can find interesting that then you can make it your own.

I mean, you can hear people doing talks and they'll say words that they don't

actually understand themselves and the audience to go would, you can hear it.

You know, I mean, if you go and watch

Shakespeare, don't watch Shakespeare done by an amateur dramatic society.

Bless them.

You know, they work really, really hard, but they don't have the time to find

out what it is they're actually saying.

So half the time, if you, if you watch somebody that does.

No Shakespeare terminology that well, or they don't understand what they're

saying, then it's very difficult to follow the storyline because they

don't understand what they're saying,

so you don't understand what they're saying, and it's the same with anything,

you need to, you need to know what it is that you're talking about and find

something in it that you understand.

Yeah.

that makes a lot of sense.

But I just think in terms of, and this relates to a lot of the

things that you've been saying.

about In terms of having influence having status and standing the kind

that you would want to have, not with people being afraid of you, when

people, actually looking up to you and respecting you and even not liking,

trusting, admiring you But that comes from being able to show who you truly

are and to be able to be, ha have a relaxed confidence in those situations.

And that can only really come when you put the work in.

It doesn't happen without that time and practice element.

And It's not always what people want to hear.

The people want this add water and stir solution or the

magic pill that they can take.

And the that doesn't exist.

So this is why success, perhaps isn't and why status and influence

isn't for everybody, because you have to put some work into this.

You actually have to put some energy and effort into it.

it Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you, again, go back to theater analogies, but I did some work on an

opera once and I didn't realize that in the career of an opera singer, they

will have maybe three parts that they sing, that they play in any opera.

So through their 20 year career, they will only know three parts.

So it's not like an actor that goes from, because the, it needs to fit their voice.

It needs to fit, you know, weather, whatever it is.

Which I didn't, I didn't realize, but that's how they hone those

skills is that they are just playing that same part over and over again.

I mean, it is the same with an actor going back to the Royal Shakespeare

company, going back to when I was even doing fringe shows, you are doing a show

every day, for however long the run is.

And so by the, you know, by the time you're a month in, you are able to play

and find nuances and find different ways.

And most people will have a signature talk if that's what the, you know,

if that's what they do or, you

know, their, their, pitch or whatever, it's, they'll do it so often.

And the more they do it, the better they will get.

And the more playful they can become.

And you know, when, when you've got that playfulness, then you, you're

more engaging people will want to listen to you and want to want to know

what it is that you're talking about.

It's always interesting people.

People often say they want to be more confident when they're, when they're

speaking and presenting and that yeah, there are tips and tricks that

can help you to get in that mindset.

But nothing is going to give you the same level of confidence as actually

knowing your stuff so well that you're not going to forget it all of a sudden

or oh, that you know, well enough to to riff off it and play with it when

you know, stuff that well, you have every reason to be confident about it.

And, uh, You mentioned about that.

I'm going to have to look into this research as well, because it's fascinating

that when you're able to improvise and stuff, that it gets you out of that

part of your brain, that the inner critic, that's fascinating because

that's often what is pulling people back when they're speaking, presenting,

performing what, however you want to, however you want to look at this

so fascinating area and some interesting, really interesting

things you're sharing with us today.

So I want to ask you, because I believe, I believe as a podcaster myself, that

having a podcast is a great way to build your own influence and to get a message

out there and to help people, in the ways that you can best help them with

your nodded, talents, and abilities.

So What was it that made you want to start a podcast?

before.

Well, apart from boredom and lockdown really, I think

what it was was when, when I started my business, say three and a bit years ago,

and I was really kind of freelancing.

Around creative projects.

So I was doing I'd come out of an art centers, that arts development.

So I was doing arts development work part-time and teaching part-time.

And so I gave up the arts development thinking that I could do projects

around sort of community arts projects.

And when I then started networking and telling people what I was doing, they

were kind of, I got those like, That kind of look where people go, ah, but

not really knowing where to put me or, you know, they were busy trying to

sell me the solicitors, you know, or, or accountancy processes or whatever.

And I thought this is really odd.

This is not why, why I came into networks.

I didn't want to be sold to from the person sitting next to me

or give me their business card.

I wanted to actually.

Form relationships and collaborations and talk to people about my business and to,

and find out how they were doing theirs.

And I thought that's what networking was.

I was wrong.

So the, so the podcast really came out of a network that I found.

I mean, I kissed a lot of frogs in the networking world, and I

finally found one that was wasn't even a, sort of a selling network.

It was more of a learning platform, really about content marketing.

And within that, there were a couple of podcasters and I got to the end of one

of our kind of online zoom meetings.

And it, there was a guy there called Joseph Jaffe who.

Has a podcast called Corona TV that he started in lockdown and literally

from the March put on a podcast show every single day and invited

content marketers that he knew.

And he came on and spoke to us within this network that I was in.

And at the end, I was so full of questions.

How do you do that?

Can I do that?

Is it, are there too many are, you know, I got really quite excited about

it and I thought, well, you know, it would be a great way to talk to business

people about their own creativity.

And because we are all creative, I mean, it just, we're born creative.

Everything we do is creative.

But people just don't get that.

They kind of think, oh, well, I can't paint.

I can't draw, I can't play a musical instrument.

Therefore I'm not creative.

And so it was just, for me, it was a way of, of kind of saying to people,

well, okay, what is it that you do?

And, and what is your definition of creativity then?

What do you think creativity is?

And just opening up that discussion.

And but also talking to people that work on.

You know, I've, I've spoken to authors and people that at the top of

their, their careers in what they're doing and it's like, well, okay.

How, how did you get there creatively?

How did, how has your creativity helped you to get there?

Just so that you can people that are listening can kind of see.

How they can do it and see what in somebody else's story relates to

them and validates what they do.

And so, yeah, that's, that's why, and that's why I've continued doing it because

that's, that's what I love about it is that, you know, it's, well, it's just fun

talking to great people like yourself.

Johnny

Well, I mean, I've had the I've had the privilege of being

a guest on the show yet as well.

And so your show is called power to speak.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So people can come and check that out on all the main networks we'll have links

to that in the show notes for people, but, and apart from the episode, with

myself what has been one of your favorite episodes, I'm going to ask you to put

your absolute favorite, cause that that's always impossible to do, but what has been

one of your favorite episodes to date?

Well there have been at, there's been a few, I have to say,

but I suppose I made a contact in the states with a philosopher American.

They call him America's philosopher.

He's named Tom Morris, and I do recommend anybody check out Tom Morris

if they don't even come and listen to the podcast, just go and check out

tom he's written over 30 books.

He worked at Notre Dame university in the states as a philosophy professor for

many years before he left, and now does keynote speaking and, and just shares

his philosophy with the world really.

And he wrote a philosophy for dummies.

He wrote if, I think if Aristotle ran General Motors and I read, I

read a book recently of his called

Plato's Lemonade Stand, which is, the philosophy behind how we will cope

with change and how, how we can cope with change in a philosophical way.

And I know you are a bit of a philosophy buff too, but he's, he is an

I am.

he was an amazing person to talk to and just so engaging

the way that he just, talks about life and just shares isn't Uzo.

So, yeah, Tom Morris, my

Yeah, I love that while I'm there.

I'm definitely, definitely going to check that out.

Cause I I do love philosophy.

Indeed.

I'm no professor of philosophy, but I am someone who has a pastor that and

wish more people were into philosophy because it's such a fascinating area.

And causes us all to think about things a bit more deeply, which I always like.

So let me say that people can come and check out your podcast.

Also on your website, which is powertospeak.co.uk.

So we'll have a link to that in the show notes as well.

But you also do coaching and you specifically work with people.

So kind of, what kind of services would people be able to find there?

I do one-to-one coaching?

So, and that specifically with people on either whether they have a

presentation that they need to make, or whether it, you know, they are

going to be standing on a TEDx stage.

So I work with people one-to-one on not just building the confidence or how to

use their voice effectively but also kind of around the content as well,

because I think it's really important to shape the content, to use people,

I mean, obviously there's the word story.

Storytelling is kind of maybe a little bit overused, but their stories are very

relatable and lots of people specifically, if they have data to share, forget about

the storytelling and people will, I love the quote people won't necessarily

remember what you said, but they will remember how you made them feel.

And so within that content, I like to find the story in it and work out a way

that people can kind of tell their story.

Yeah.

Yeah, one-to-one coaching specifically on those sort of issues.

Team coaching and corporate team building around confidence when

speaking, when pitching, when trying to make an impact with what it is

that they're saying, I've worked with.

It's the C-suite kind of level, because quite often people at that level,

even then still have a bit of imposter syndrome are a little bit nervous

about talking either to investors or people that are very, very important

or talking to their staff, you know?

So, so anything and everything that is around just helping people to build their

confidence when they're sort of talking not necessarily on a stage, but just

talking to the people around them really?

it's communication, isn't it?

It's sort of confidence in communicating.

Yeah.

I mean, we are presenting, communicating every day of our lives.

just not always in those formal presentation situations for sure.

So it's a valuable skills to get.

So all those links will be in the show notes for people to come and find

out more about you and the services that are available from your website.

Let me ask you, I always ask my guests for.

For book recommendations.

What would be a book or a couple of books that have made an impact on

you or you think these are the books?

I think everybody should read?

Well, the plate lemonade stand, certainly by Tom Morris.

Just, I suppose the, the books that I like and not necessarily business

books I like philosophical kind of.

My favorite ever book is to kill a Mockingbird by Harper.

And that, I don't know.

And there's another book called the God of small things by Arundhati

Roy, which is a beautiful book.

And both of those books are written from a kind of a child from a child's eyes,

looking at the adult world around them.

And I do think there is something philosophical in the way we are

as children looking at an adult world and how we deal with.

As children.

And also obviously the author's looking for.

To childhood and sort of figuring out what it was about, you know, the

meaning of life from, from the age.

So yes those are, I have to say as well.

And I have heard you in podcast before saying that the secret is not

necessarily your favorite book, but I have to say, I did read the secret

about, oh, it must be at least sort of 15 years ago when it first came out.

And as much as I don't ness, you know, the.

It just kind of opened my eyes to a more positive way of approaching life and,

yeah, and it, and it almost validated everything that I had always thought

I've always been quite, you know, I am the glass half full person, and

I don't understand people where the glass is always half empty because

you think, well, what's the point?

You might as well be positive rather than be negative.

And there was just lots of positivity in that book that kind of led

me to a point where I thought, well, I can do, I am capable of

doing anything that I want to do.

And if, you know, if I really put the words into action, then.

The good stuff will come my way.

So with that, yeah,

Yeah, well, I have to confess that I only watched the movie.

I never actually read the book and by my good friend Brendan Eastman,

when I went on his show suggested that the, book is quite different

and I should give that a read, but you know, I, it's is for me, it's.

A very deep level, nuanced conversation to fully explain what, what I like.

And don't like about all of that Unfortunately, I don't have time

that they have time for, but it's not a complete, like I'm against it.

I arrived it off.

But yeah, I didn't like the movie for sure,

So, but I only really, because I just kind of felt that for a lot of people that

gave this impression that you just have to think about something and it'll set me

up here in your life and it's like, well, Yeah, the world doesn't work, like that,

unfortunately, or maybe fortunately really th and that relates to a lot of what we've

been talking you have to put in the work.

We have to be willing to put in the energy and the work to the things that

we want to be do have and create in life.

So, one thing that I do that I do want to get to as you, what would you call, it?

what would you say is your own super secret super power in terms

of influence and persuasion?

I think it, I think it probably goes back to just being

reliable and just being somebody that, that I think my curiosity in

people, I think my superpower is to see both sides is to not judge.

And I do wish I do wish a lot of people.

We're like that a lot.

I wish a lot more people were like that.

Not that you know, you're asking about superpower, if that's, maybe that is me

blowing my own trumpet, but I do feel like I give people the benefit of the doubt.

I listen to both sides.

I put myself in their shoes.

Yeah, because I think everybody.

Is the way they are for a reason.

And that is, they are all motivated to do what they do for a reason.

And I always like to find out maybe what that reason is before I judge.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I've had to pay in sort of what a neuro linguistic programming, in terms of

getting into someone else's model of the world to understand that, and that that's

what relates to, I think what, you're, what you're describing there as well.

And That's definitely a superpower being able to, do your best

to understand or get into.

Other people's thinkings and see things from other perspectives then your own.

It gives you a much broader perspective on life rather than

being locked into one particular way of thinking or that everything's

black and white or anything that.

So, yeah, definitely a super power.

Thank you for sharing that with us.

If there was one thing that you would most like people to take away from

our conversation today, what would.

that be?

You have permission, you have permission to do what

it is that you love to do.

So go and find what that is.

Have a, have a think back to what you were doing in the playground,

aged nine, and then go and do that.

So I was making up plays.

I was cajoling all of my friends to make up a play that we, then I

probably forced them into performing it to the class on a Friday.

And when I think back now, That's the person I should always be.

And I think we, we kind of get crushed a little bit through secondary school and

we come out the other side, you know, by the likes of those careers officers

doing what we are we think we should do, or we are expected to do, and we kind

of forget how to play and we forget that nine year old to be when they grew up.

Absolutely.

I have to go and buy a spiderman outfit Now and so I'll be, I'll be back.

in a little while.

I think it is good advice.

We should definitely think back to, to when we were younger.

And that's a great thing to take away those limitations or

the way we box ourselves in?

When we get older, Jackie has been a real pleasure talking today.

has been a lot of value far from it.

Some great gems that you shared, and I wish you the best of

luck with all of your coaching.

and Your continued success with your podcast as it

continues to grow and develop.

Thank you for your time joining us today.

has been a real pleasure.

thank you so much.

It's been, it really has been a pleasure talking to you, Johnny.

So thank you.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks for tuning in.

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Now, I said last week that there are going to be a few changes and there will be.

One of the things that I have been doing is rereading and revisiting

the book How to Win Friends and Influence people by Dale Carnegie.

And I'm going to do a bit of a review on that book for one of my upcoming episodes.

You'll be hearing that very soon.

And I've started based on that, started a little series of videos, which you can

find on my LinkedIn profile and pretty most of my social media places for the

show and I'm doing a little bit here about how the principles from how to win friends

and influence people, apply for people who are looking to win over podcast guests

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the creator of PodMatch and Pod Pros.

We talk about how much power there is in the world of podcasting what's

going on in podcasting right now.

And why you might want to be thinking about getting on board either as a

guest or as a host, or maybe even both.

So don't miss that look out for those future episodes.

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We'll look forward to connecting with you again for another episode, very soon,

wherever you're going, whatever you're doing, have an amazing rest of your day