Thirty years later and Muppet Treasure Island still does not get the respect it deserves. In this episode we go deep on one of the most slept-on films in the entire Muppet catalog, and make the case that it is not just a great Muppet movie but a legitimately great movie, full stop. We talk about Tim Curry doing what Tim Curry does best, which is walk into a movie and immediately become the most chaotic and magnetic thing in it. Long John Silver might be his most unhinged performance and we mean that as the highest possible compliment. We also get into what the Muppets actually are at their core, why Jim Henson's legacy still shapes everything they touch, and how Brian Henson pulled off a film that works for a six-year-old and a thirty-five-year-old sitting in the same room.

Here is the thing nobody talks about with this movie: they were shooting it with an unfinished script. The whole production was a controlled improvisation, and somehow that chaos is exactly what makes it feel alive. The energy between Tim Curry and the Muppets is not manufactured, it is real, and you can feel it in every scene. We break down how that spontaneity shaped the final product, why the Hans Zimmer score hits harder than anyone gives it credit for, and why the Muppets doing classic literature is a formula that absolutely needs to come back. This one is a love letter to a film that earned it.

Takeaways:

1. Tim Curry's Long John Silver is his most unhinged and purely enjoyable performance on film, and we are prepared to die on that hill
2. The Muppets treating themselves as serious dramatic actors is not a bit, it is the whole philosophy, and it is why the comedy actually lands
3. The script was not finished when they started shooting, and the improvised chaos that resulted is a feature, not a bug
4. The Muppets doing classic literature is one of the best creative frameworks they have ever had and someone needs to bring it back
5. Hans Zimmer scored this film early in his career and it absolutely slaps in ways people never notice until you point it out
6. At its core this movie is funny, it is adventurous, and it genuinely has heart, which is the Muppet formula and it works every single time

Tags: Muppet Treasure Island, Tim Curry performance, Muppets movie history, film adaptation comedy, Muppet film analysis, Tim Curry Muppet role, Muppet character dynamics, Muppet humor style, Brian Henson directing, underrated Muppet movies, Muppet movie nostalgia, film composition Hans Zimmer, Muppet Treasure Island review, Muppet movie legacy, classic literature adaptations, comedic puppetry techniques, Muppet character interactions, film production challenges, Muppet film trivia, Tim Curry acting style

Foreign.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Movie wars podcast.

I'm Kyle.

I'm Seth.

I'm Mariana.

As a quick reminder, a little bit of format of the show, we do a little bit of film history.

We do the randos, which are the most interesting things we uncover during research.

Then we do the questions which are meant to generate comedic banner because we are comedians.

We are.

And then in sometimes serious discussion.

Then we finish out with our War Zone, which is just a four category scorecard that we give our yes or no to the film on which we're

coming off of three weeks of Oscar darlings Deep.

We did Ben, her and Titanic with the good old John de Toy.

Last week we did Sinners, which I think we, it's fair to say we all absolutely adored that movie.

And now we're taking quite a left turn.

It is the 30th anniversary, ladies and gentlemen, of Muppet Treasure Island.

One of my favorite movies ever made.

It is probably one of the most underrated movies as far as the Muppets go, but, oh, my God, is it perfect?

It is.

There's a.

A great meme that's out there that I thoroughly enjoy that talks about how the reason Muppet Christmas Carol and Muppet Treasure island work so well is because Michael Kane, who played Scrooge in A Christmas Carol, treated all of his fellow Muppets as fellow thespians, like he.

He elevated them all to a Shakespearean level.

And Tim Curry, who played Long John Silver in this, treated himself as if he was a Muppet.

And that is why it worked so well.

And it was funny because I saw an interview later where Tim Curry actually talked about that.

He actually talked about how he had to make himself a Muppet in order for him to fit so well in this movie.

Wow.

I love acting.

I want to be a Muppet.

It's h. It's so good, this, this.

I guess we can go ahead and jump into a little bit of the history.

So the Muppets have been around since the late 60s.

The Muppet show started in the 70s and very quickly became a cultural phenomenon.

Like it was a badge of honor for a celebrity to end up on the Muppet Show.

And they did some theatrical productions, I think three, maybe four movies.

Yep.

What a sad day for everyone.

If you see clips of his funeral, it is just.

It's so sad.

Harry Belafonte got up and did a big number at his funeral.

Like it was the day.

Oh, guy.

Yeah, yeah.

He was on the Muppet show at one point.

Yeah, he was.

It's one of the best episodes.

Yeah.

Yeah, I watched all of them.

Same.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We.

We had one of the seasons growing up, and then when they all got on Disney plus, I just was like, I'm going through all of this.

Yeah.

But, yeah, so it was a very sad day.

And then I think.

I think in your research, it stated that they thought the Muppets were done.

Yeah.

Like, what are the Muppets without Jim Henson?

He was the voice of Kermit.

He.

He had so many other voices that he was doing throughout it and.

And was.

It was his brainchild.

Like, he created this.

And then his son Brian stood up and was like, no, we're going to keep his legacy moving.

We're going to keep this going.

So they made him up A Christmas Carol and then they decided to adapt Treasure Island.

Wow.

Yeah.

And I think it.

It just.

It turned out so well despite.

Because there were so many production issues with making this movie, one of which was, I don't think the script was finished until they finished shooting the movie.

Really?

Yeah.

And it was a.

It was a joke on set that Brian Henson very specifically said, I am not going to cut my hair until this script is done.

And if you watch all the behind the scenes, you could tell at what stage they are in the filmmaking process because of how much longer his hair gets by the end of it.

His hair is so long.

It's so long.

Yeah.

And so kind of taking an aside from our usual history thing, because I have to come at this from a different perspective.

I've said this many times on the podcast, but my parents did not care what I watched same.

And they were like, fuck it, watch Cobra.

You know, you know, watch, watch, watch Commando, RoboCop for the 50th time.

Just watch porn.

Yeah.

My dad.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But here's the thing.

So I find these movies to be.

And this isn't a criticism, it's just coming from my background, I find them to be very inaccessible.

Sure.

But that.

I know, that's my background.

Yeah.

And I know there's a quality here, but so as a.

As a professional lover of this, is it like.

I know you said cultural phenomenon, but take that deeper.

What is it that.

That has caught the eye of so many people?

For me specifically, because when you look at, like the 50s and 60s and what Disney especially was doing, there was a lot of use of real life people with cartoons, but there was still a very visible separation between those two puppets.

Had been around for God knows how long.

There.

There were all sorts of, like, ventriloquist acts that were happening on.

On various TV shows.

And I, I think the Muppets ended up hitting so hard because they treat them like Hollywood professionals.

When you watch the Muppet show, you.

You.

You get both the front of house.

This is the show they're putting on, but you also get the behind the scenes of what it takes to put on a variety show that they're doing and, and, and watching them interact with their guests and with these huge celebrities.

I mean, Gene Kelly was on.

Fred Astaire was on.

Steve Martin was on, Carol Burnett was on.

Bob Hope was on, like, Bing Crosby was on, like, so John Denver.

So many of the biggest stars of the 70s were coming on that show that it just.

It.

People started seeing the Muppets as real life characters.

I mean, you look in.

In the opening credits for the movie, all of the Muppets are credited as the Muppets.

They're not credited as Frank O until the end credits, but it's.

It's Miss Piggy as Benjamina Gun, Fuzzy Bear as the.

As.

As the.

The.

The half wit son.

Like Kermit the Frog as Captain Smollet.

Like, they really became their own characters in.

In a way that I don't think has ever been achieved or was achieved before that.

It almost feels like a litmus test for where we're at culturally.

Yeah.

Could something like this take off again today?

I don't think so.

Not.

Not with a different set of characters.

But people have been begging the Muppets to do more adaptations, and they just keep not doing it for whatever reason.

Yeah.

I'm hopeful with this reboot of the Muppet show that Seth Rogen's been doing.

I haven't seen the episode yet, but I need to get in there at some point soon.

But I didn't even know that was happening.

Yeah.

Sabrina Carpenter apparently was also, like, really influential in making this thing happen.

Thank God.

Pop star.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's how.

That's how stupid I am.

I know.

I'm like the girl.

The one.

Okay, I know who it is.

John Carpenter, sister.

The one that's always, like, naked and in her lingerie.

That one.

Yeah, yeah.

The hot one that's just always naked.

Exactly.

Yeah.

She's the one that's bringing the Muppets back.

Muppet material.

But on top of that, I think there's a humor you can get away with with puppets that you can't get away with with people that's why I like them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And did you know that Kermit is made out of a coat?

The first Kermit is made out of his mom's spring coat.

I learned that Muppet.

That's cool.

The film museum in the Bronx.

Oh, that's awesome.

Oh, I didn't know that.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

Made out of a coat.

And he did a really good job at getting outside of just the Muppets, obviously, Sesame Street, Everyone loves and adores that he made Yoda, obviously.

Like, people like the guy who plays Miss Piggy played Yoda.

Yeah.

Frank Oz.

Yeah.

Did not know that same actor.

So it's.

And then he had.

He had Labyrinth with David Bowie and then the D Crystal, which was what he wanted to do, but the studios weren't really behind him doing a movie that didn't have any humans on screen, so they did Labyrinth to kind of prove the concept.

And then he went in and made the Dark Crystal, which is one of my favorite fantasy movies.

Like, hands down.

And there's not a single human being on screen.

It's all.

It's only puppets.

That's my Netflix.

Like, little.

You know, the little guy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, I love that.

My husband was like, that doesn't even look like you.

And I was like, yes, it does.

Go away.

Go away, Brownsdale.

I was like, who are you?

So now that you've seen the movie, though, like.

Like, do you still feel a disconnect?

I do.

I do.

And again, I. I did.

I put.

I intentionally put myself, though, in a mode of, like, watch this as a film, you know, and.

And don't let the.

It's.

It's just hard for me not to go into it feeling like it's childish.

I mean.

Huh.

Did you watch it with your kids?

I didn't know.

Oh, you should have.

Yeah.

If they.

If they put this on YouTube shorts, I'm sure they'd love it.

With brain, you know, Roblox, Brain rot music behind it.

They would.

Subway surfers on the bottom.

They would love it.

Now, nailing them down to watch a full movie.

Now, here's the thing.

I. I thoroughly enjoyed it, okay?

I did.

And it's.

It's.

It was hard to get through because, again, I.

And I.

And this is me, like, just fully recognizing how I came in to watch the movies.

Like, I was introduced to violence, drugs, right off the bat.

Like, there was no.

Like, hey, maybe.

Maybe watch the puppets first, and then we'll watch Cobra.

When you're six.

It was just, like, immediate Violence.

Die Hard With a Vengeance.

Exactly.

That's my favorite childhood movie.

Yes.

And so you kind of get that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, we grew up the same.

Yeah.

But I did fully recognize and, and what makes it a little more accessible is Tim Curry.

And it was the same with the Muppets Christmas Carol with Michael Kane.

Like, which I will say, I, I think having Billy Connelly at the beginning as Billy Bones, like, really kind of set the stage for how insane Tim Curry goes.

I genuinely believe this is his most unhinged role.

Yeah.

Like, you could talk about Rocky Horror all you want.

You can talk about Clue, you could talk about any of his other movies.

I think this truly was him saying, I am just going to act my.

Yeah, well, he said it was his dream role and he actually based his accent off his own grandfather.

Oh, that's beautiful.

He really got into it.

Oh, I love that.

And he is super into it.

And, and he, he has a thing that only he does, like, I don't want to call it sexual, but he has this very, like, the way he gets into a role kind of has always has a slightly seductive, definitely seductive undertone seductive.

Like, he even did it at home alone, too, where he, like his eyes.

When he, like, does this with his eyes, you know, you're kind of like, whoa, he's, he's feeling it.

Oh, yeah.

But I love him.

And I, I, I hear he's ill, right?

Like, he's very ill.

He had a stroke.

Yeah.

And we may not ever see anything from him again.

And he's older, but, you know, Pennywise, Clue.

Clue is amazing.

He is amaz.

He is Clue.

Like, so that helped create a little credibility to help ease my way into it.

And what I learned, and I'm going to come at this as a newbie, is that I can't believe how well written the dialogue is for these puppets.

It's kind of shocking.

And I think that kind of gave me a glimmer to what you experienced was like, yeah, it's childish and maybe bent the little towards children, but there's enough there for adults take a bite out of too.

Because, like, the dialogue is actually, like, once Miss Piggy comes on, she is hilarious.

What does she say?

The cake.

About the, when she's saying the.

About the wedding, about how he left her at the wedding and the.

About the cake.

What's the line?

There's.

Oh, my God, there was lemon.

Something.

I forget, I forget.

Oh, it's a little line, but it caught me so well, like, there was lemon filling or Something I was like that was so specific.

Ms. Biggie is always, always the comedic.

What a queen.

I know.

Yeah.

And I know I'm now just giving really specific examples, but just talking about things that hooked me into it.

I love it at the end when all the whole family has.

Has silver.

Yeah.

At the swords in.

And they're all talking about how if this person dies, then I die too.

But the last one, what's the mouse or whatever like?

He's like.

He's like.

And if he dies, then there will be heavy negotiations.

Rizzo's my favorite character.

That killed me in every movie.

Rizzo's always my favorite.

I always quote the moment where.

Where they're.

He.

The pigs are holding him at bay and then he shoots the hat off the guy and he's like, we see you have boom boom sticks.

Yeah.

Bye.

Bye.

There's so many.

There's so many great.

Just little moments like that.

Like the whole.

The whole concept of Rizzo selling a cruise on the ship.

Yeah.

And then, then they're going around and I love.

This is the other thing about the Muppets.

I love how meta they get because in all of those scenes they're going around like they're on this tour and then when they're looking at Captain Smollett and Miss Piggy having their conversation, they're like.

And this is the set of the movie Muppet Treasure Island.

And it's just.

It's so good.

Yes.

Yeah.

They have a good sense of humor with themselves.

Absolutely.

That's why it's fun to watch, I think.

I think that's why it holds up so well.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

And then on of that the human actors all.

All just thoroughly enjoying themselves on set.

There's.

In the behind the scenes, there's an interview with Billy Connelly where he talks about how much of a pleasure it was to work across from Gonzo.

And there's that moment where he's like dying in the bed and he's like, jimmy, Jim, Jimmy, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim.

And he grabs Gonzo's nose.

They had to do so many takes of that because apparently when you grab Gonzo's nose, his eyes just do this weird cross eyed thing.

And he kept cracking up and could keep a straight face for that whole.

Was feeling that role.

He was perfect feeling that.

Absolutely.

Tim Curry's never looked happier.

And that's saying quite a lot.

Yeah.

Do you think.

Do you think this is more of a like a method question, but do you think because of like you, you kind of alluded to it, like, you can do stuff with puppets that you can't do with humans.

Yeah.

Which the creators of south park have alluded, like, the reason they've been able to get away with the wildest for so long is because the targets are fake cartoons.

Yeah.

So do you think the actors came in and said, like, we can just be loose, silly, have fun?

Like, is there a level of that?

Absolutely.

Because again, if.

If you.

If you watch the Muppet show and.

And my favorite episode is the one they did with Steve Martin.

I don't know if you remember that one.

Yeah.

Oh, it has to be so good.

The.

The big joke in that movie is.

Or in that episode is they scheduled the show on the wrong day and it was actually an audition day because they needed more acts in the show.

So they sent the audience home, and the audience is all made up of puppets.

So they said.

But.

But that means there's no laugh track for the whole episode.

So any laughter you're hearing is the actual crew on set laughing their ass off to.

To Steve Martin just going crazy.

Yeah.

And it's perfect.

And I think by.

Especially by the 90s, the Muppets were such a staple in.

In worldwide culture because I think at that point, Kermit the Frog may have legitimately been the most famous person in the world.

Yeah.

And so.

Go ahead.

The coat.

Yeah, he's a coat.

Yeah, he's a spring coat.

That's awesome.

And so I think the vibe was so well set leading up to that, that, yeah, the actors were just able to say, no, this is.

This isn't a kids movie.

This isn't a adaptation.

This is a straight comedy.

And we have to treat this like it's a straight comedy.

Wow.

Yeah.

That intro sequence with Tim Curry where he's like, oh, we skin stowaways and serve them, and then he just starts maniacally laughing.

It's such a perfect introduction of a character.

Yeah.

He's going bonkers, man.

Absolutely.

At the midway point when after the betrayal happens, you know, he's.

He just turns it to a new gear.

I just love it.

The whole scene where they're, like, stretching gonzo career in the NBA, like, just.

It's so good.

Yeah, no, it's really cool.

And I'm glad I got to experience it.

Like, I'll be honest, I spent the first 30 minutes kind of like having to get acclimated.

Yeah.

To it.

I get it.

You know, and so, you know, especially coming off sinners, I know.

You can't watch these two Back to Brad.

I literally did that.

I watched the podcast.

It was a funny week.

Because Centers is so my speed.

Yeah.

But once I kind of.

And I. I really wish I don't have that much time, but I wish I had time to have a second rewatch before the pie.

Because I think.

I think at the halfway point is when I said, I'm in.

Yeah.

But I kind of, like, didn't give the first half what it deserved because I started to love it in the second half.

So I do need to go back and rewatch it so I can have a complete experience.

The first half has so many subtle little jokes just thrown in there that it's absolutely.

It's just like you said, it's so well written.

Yes.

It has no business being that well written for a puppet.

Exactly.

Well, I think.

I think, honestly, everybody that works on any Muppet project is just so obsessed with the Muppets.

Oh, yeah.

Like, I don't think this is one of those dream job scenarios.

Yeah.

You can tell Jason Siegel was having the time of his life.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

You never want to leave the Muppets if you're in the Muppet World.

Like, I think this is.

It shows.

Oh, absolutely.

That's why we're all begging for more Muppets.

Sure.

And even me.

That's, like, Die Hard With a Vengeance is my childhood favorite movie.

Yeah.

I'm still, like, swept up in the magic of Muppets because, you know, it's.

How can you not be?

Yeah.

But I love the tiny little jokes everywhere.

And Rizzo just.

He's so perfect.

I could just live my life as Rizzo and be happy.

Absolutely.

It's a little rat.

Little rat Muppet.

Maybe you feel like a rat in a cage or a pup or a puppet on a string.

What if Billy Corgan played Rizzo?

Yes.

Oh, my God, that'd be great.

I know the Muppets are having a good time, but you might feel like a corporate puppet just being pulled by your boss, by the stakeholders, by the technocratic billionaires.

Yeah, I'm tired.

Two hours of sleep.

Maybe.

Your boss is making you bury buried treasure on a remote desert island and then is going to kill you right after.

But you don't know that yet.

That's also translated as calling you while you're on pto.

Pretty much.

Anyway, if you feel that way, Share Movie Wars.

You know, you can.

You can shatter the corporate structure.

Yeah.

You can break the Matrix.

Find the treasure.

Find the treasure.

Share Movie Wars.

Rando.

Rando.

Which I feel like, you two are probably going to know all these already.

I do have one or two.

I'll go ahead and start with my favorite rando.

So the kid who played Jim, Kevin.

I forget his last name.

This was his.

This was an introducing role for him, which I do like that we've got two movies in a row with introducing actors.

Yes.

He was originally supposed to sing all of the songs on set live, really.

But for safety, they went ahead and recorded everything beforehand.

He hit puberty two weeks into the shoot, and you could really tell by the end of the movie, like, his voice is starting to drop and crack and everything.

So they couldn't have him sing anything on set because his voice was just gonna crack.

And so they had to use all of his prepubescent recordings for the whole movie, for all of his singing.

That's why it's horrid.

Okay.

I'm glad you said that.

My biggest critique.

I would just mute it.

Yep.

Anytime that kid sings.

Yep.

Or on screen.

And I was finally getting into it.

Right.

I'm like, I'm finally getting that midway point.

Like, I can do this.

And it's like, oh, my gosh.

They put that in the movie because they had to.

Oh, my God.

Physically couldn't say they couldn't adr like a better singer.

Nah.

I don't think with the budget, they were all.

Really was already such a crazy production that, like, it was so chaotic that it finally was just like, no, we've got to do this.

Because that's what every Disney movie does.

You know, live action movies.

I mean, they have.

They adr real singers all the time.

Yeah.

That's hilarious.

It pulled me out.

I'm glad you.

It wasn't just me.

I wasn't trying to be Mr. Critical.

I love drug dealer.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Look, don't get me wrong.

As perfect as this movie is, it is far from a perfect movie.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, no, it's.

It's.

It's painful.

Yes.

It's so high pitched.

Yeah.

Again, though, he was 12 when they recorded that.

And then look, 12.

He looks like he's 16.

So it's like so confusing because you're like, why is he.

Did he.

Is he fixed?

Because, you know, they used to fix singers.

Castrettos.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was like, is he a castretto?

Nope.

He's the exact opposite.

He.

He was becoming a man, and they had to live with his child voice.

Yeah.

I'm trying to see what else this guy went on to do.

I don't think he did a ton after this.

Probably because of that.

All women were like, oh, my God, he's 17 and he sings like a girl.

For a second.

I. I was looking because he had the same exact haircut as the kid in Terminat, too.

John Connor's best friend.

Red mullet hair.

I was like, is that the same kid?

That's an amazing rando, though.

And it explains why I reacted the way I did.

My other favorite rando is in the original draft of the script, Gonzo and Rizzo were going to play Jim and Hawkins.

Oh.

Instead of having Jim Hawkins be his own character.

But as they were developing the script, Brian Henson decided that you lose the entire coming of age story that is Treasure Island.

Yeah.

If you make the Muppet characters Jim Hawkins.

So they decided they had to have an actual character for Jim Hawkins and then let Gonzo and Rizzo play themselves.

I'm glad they did that same.

Oh, absolutely.

He hadn't sang.

Yeah.

Like, it didn't have to be a musical.

It's the Muppets.

It has to be a musical.

I know that.

That's their thing.

Yeah.

They could have tried something different.

Granted, the great Muppet caper was.

Well, I think it had one or two musical numbers, but it had the least.

Yeah.

That's why I like it.

That one is one of my favorites.

I love that moment where Fozzie is.

Is spooning powder into his champagne glass, and he just turns and looks at the couple behind them and goes, you know, if you put enough ginger ale or sugar in this stuff, it tastes like ginger ale.

That's amazing.

He's the best.

Is that you guys favorite?

My.

My favorite is usually Gonzo and Rizzo as a pair of.

But apparently, as time has gone on, they've separated them a little bit.

Really?

Yeah.

And I'm kind of sad about that.

Oh, my favorite are Statler and Waldorf, also wonderful.

They're the old man on the front of the ship in the Muppet Show.

They're usually in their own box right above the stage, and they heckle the

show the whole time.

That's awesome.

Me and my friend Abby in college, we were Sattler and Waldorf in every class.

But everyone, it was okay to heckle in art school because, like, you know, we're learning to draw, so everyone appreciated it.

Y' all didn't do the snaps, did you?

That we approved snaps.

Remember those?

No, that was a later stage thing.

Yeah.

No, we are old school.

Wall Styler and Waldorf.

That's awesome.

That Was Abby.

Abby was all shout out to Abby.

I know.

If she had Internet.

Is she.

Is she Amish?

No, she just doesn't, like, do Internet.

I don't know.

I love that Abby.

Yeah, she's amazing.

You'll never hear this.

I wish she would feel the vibes.

Just feel it through the ground.

The ground swell.

I know.

Did you hear about the Dramamine story?

No.

So I guess because of the gimbal, because there was a.

It was a real ship they built.

I the direct or Brian gave everybody Dramamine.

The entire cast.

Nobody got seasick, but everybody got really tired.

Yeah, I bet.

And apparently do that.

And I didn't notice it till I read this, but Tim.

Tim Curry was apparently barely conscious.

And when he looks at Brian, or he looked at Brian and said, I'm going to kill you, and you can see his eyes just heavy.

Like, his eyelids are super heavy, apparently.

So if you pay attention during that part of the film.

Oh, my God, I love that.

Oh, that'd be me.

I can't.

I can do a show.

I can be on a ship.

Yeah.

I can't be.

Yeah.

I've gone deep sea fishing.

Like, I don't get seasick, but I can't imagine.

I mean, I get seasick, but I couldn't act on Dramamine.

I'd rather just be sick.

You can puke between takes.

Yeah, I'll be fine.

Trying to imagine Tim Curry on Dramamine on camera.

Just like, he's already got the eyes

going crazy while pretending to have one leg.

Yeah.

His eyes are his most defining feature as an actor.

What he can do with his eyes.

Oh, yeah.

Which is probably why he's such a great Pennywise.

Yeah.

I mean, Lord.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, when your face is painted like that, it's all got to be in the eyes.

Speaking of Tim Curry, he improvised a line that got cut.

And apparently he says to Miss Piggy, once you've had pork, you never go back.

And they cut it from the film.

Oh, I mean, I get it.

I get it, but damn, that would have been so.

Yeah, it kind of pushes it a little.

Yeah.

Just a little on the edge of all the time.

They literally do that all the time.

Maybe the Muppet shows more.

I mean, they're.

When it comes, especially with the mpaa, there are just tiny little lines.

I mean, we were talking about.

What was it?

Scream had to cut seven seconds over nine revisions before they dropped it from in 17.

What?

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I watched all the screams recently because we were supposed to do that one.

So we were just like, let's watch all of them.

Hell, yeah.

There's only one bad one.

Oh, that's good to know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is.

This is funny.

Another Tim Curry one.

So Kevin Bishop, when he was 14, he found himself stuck up in the crow's nest all day with Tim Curry filming.

Right.

And he decided to ask him about wearing fishnet stockings on Rocky Horror.

And Tim Carrey apparently pulled a marble out of his pocket and took a laundry and said, not as long as wankers.

Like, you keep bringing it up.

Because apparently the backstory and this.

This Randall kept coming up on research, but I didn't have a lot of context.

But apparently he wanted to, like, leave that behind.

Like, he was just done being asked about it.

Yeah.

And then this 14 year old, they're just bored and he's never acted before, and so he decides to ask the Tim Curry.

It says, not as long as Wang is like, you keep bringing it up.

Oh, my God.

That's such a Tim Curry thing to say.

Yeah.

There's so much lore around Rocky Horror, I can imagine being sick of it.

Oh, yeah.

After doing it.

And I mean freaking out about it,

to be honest with you.

The people that I know who are the most obsessed with Rocky Horror are like the worst people I've ever.

There are casual fans that I know who are like, oh, yeah, like once every few years I'll go to the midnight show showing.

Like, that's fun.

But the people are like, I'm there every year.

I have costumes.

I. I do.

I'm like, I get the umbrella.

Yeah.

I'm like, you suck.

I used to really like all the music, which is funny because I hate musicals.

Hey, man, same last rando.

And I wouldn't have picked up on this because during COVID I was completely checked out.

But I guess Cabin Fever was a quarantine anthem on, like, social media and stuff.

And it became the unofficial anthem of COVID That tracks.

Yeah.

And it was written 24.

A great number, though.

Like, just the most insane moment.

And then so they go through the whole song and then they cut to the.

The.

The.

The.

The galley or the.

The brig under the ship.

And Clueless.

It's just like, what was that music?

Did you guys hear that?

Like, that was.

And everyone's like, what is he talking about?

This is insane.

That never happened.

I know.

I know so much.

I love it.

Those are my favorite.

That's why I like the Muppets.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I have one more rando do it.

The Mr. Bimbo storyline.

One of the producers never got it.

The whole shoot was like, this is the stupidest joke.

Why are you putting this in there?

And Brian Henson just kept being like, it's, trust me, you're gonna get it.

And by the end of the shoot, he just looked at him and was like, it's the funniest joke in the whole movie.

I mean, good for him for speaking up.

Because sometimes it's like, yeah, you need to say something if something doesn't make sense.

Yeah.

But at the same time, it's like,

you gotta push back if you're like, no, no, no.

It's so out there.

And that my favorite thing is, is Fozzie being introduced as.

Oh, but his half wit son, Young Lord, whoever is here, like, yeah.

The whole time he's like, what are half wit sons for?

Yeah.

I love it.

There's been so many movies that we've covered where there's always one of those.

Yeah.

And I don't get a guy like, it was Dennis Hopper and Apocalypse Now.

He's like, man, like, I don't get it, man.

You know, like.

And it's like the directors and producers like, like, just do it.

Stop.

Stop asking questions.

Just shut up.

Dennis Hopper, my favorite of the.

Of all the Mr. Bimbo stuff is he's been to the moon twice.

It's so good.

The question, the questions.

This is kind of a loaded question, but after hearing you guys talk, I don't think this is unfair.

Is this Tim Curry's greatest performance?

Yes.

Yeah.

Hands down, it.

I know people probably think Rocky Horror is more iconic or even, even, even Pennywise is more iconic.

I would say this is his most underrated and his best performance.

Yeah.

Because again, the whole idea of.

For the comedy.

Because, because comparing him to Michael Caine, because a lot of, a lot of people do.

Just because those are the two, like, big features in, in these adaptations they did.

Michael Caine knew he was playing the ultimate straight man.

He was playing the character who had no sense of humor, and he had to play him that way.

And in order to do that, he had to treat everyone else as if they were Shakespeareanly trained actors.

Yeah.

Tim Curry, on the other hand, realized the only way the ridiculousness could work is if he became one of the puppets.

And I think letting himself become so unhinged just, just made it that much more acceptable for how ridiculous of a concept it is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's definitely a puppet in this.

Yes.

Yeah.

He comes off as a puppet.

Yeah.

I think this, I mean, I, I'm just obsessed with him in anything but this.

Include, I feel like, might be a tie for me just because Clue is

so I still need to see clues.

Oh, my God.

It's because it's a murder mystery.

Yeah.

It's so my thing.

And then he's just.

Just.

Honestly, he just is one of those actors that elevates anything he's in.

Oh, yeah.

And there is no other choice for his character in this.

And he just.

Even in the stills, he's just like.

You can't get past his face.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's just perfect in it.

And it just makes me.

I don't think this movie would have been anywhere near what it was without him in it.

It wouldn't have been this.

I don't think anyone else could have pulled it off.

Yeah, no, not at all.

There's no.

There's no substitute here.

Yeah.

And I don't know how you direct a Tim Curry as a director.

Like, of all the actors we've talked about on here, like, how do you give direction to that man?

Yeah.

It's like, I feel like for this, you sit him down and you be like, here's the direction.

I think I want to go, what do you think?

And he's like, I like that direction, but I want to turn left over here.

And he's like, okay, do it.

And that's it.

That's all you got to do.

And then he runs through the building.

Yeah.

With his car.

Yeah.

On that hard left.

I am a Muppet.

Yes.

And I'm a Muppet.

Am I a man or a Muppet?

Here's what I'll say.

I don't.

I don't call myself an expert on Tim Curry by any means, but I've seen a lot of his work, and what I will say is I've never seen a performance from him.

I didn't love even a small part in Home Alone 2, but I think Clue is his greatest.

And that is Pennywise.

You said Pennywise.

A lot of people will say Pennywise.

The problem with.

With was not with him.

It's just that was such a cheesy adaptation, and he was such a bright spot.

He was so incredible at it.

And everyone else is literally, like, doing everything they can to detract.

Yeah.

Because it was during that.

It was that 90s Stephen King took control of TV productions phase, where he

was so worried and TV was already in a rough spot at that point.

Yes.

It had tanked and he was.

And Stephen King was so butt hurt from Stanley Kubrick.

Still, that he had to be completely involved in literally everything that was on T. So he would pick, you know, producers that it could control.

Yet we have this incredible Tim Curry performance in the middle of the shit show.

Yeah, that is one of the cheesiest things.

And I've read the book twice, and it's, like, horrible.

But anyway, clue is that movie is the same level of perfection of Tim Curry.

But it's so funny.

Yeah, you've got to watch it.

It's short, bro.

I'm gonna watch it tonight.

Honestly.

It's a watch.

It's perfect.

And my wife, even, who, you know, we differentiate a lot on taste, she was laughing her ass off.

Okay, good.

Then I'll probably like it.

Yes.

You guys tend to connect more.

It was so funny, and I.

We should watch Funny.

It's so good.

And he's just.

He's bouncing.

He's jumping around, you know, he's just great.

He's a wild man.

He is wild.

He's kind of like Jim Carrey before Jim Carrey was Jim Carrey.

Absolutely.

Like a tamer, kind of more calculated.

It almost feels like he walked.

So Jim Carrey could bounce.

Absolutely.

And then run people over on the set of man on the Moon,

the episode of Psych that Tim Curry's on where they're doing the parody of American Idol.

He is just.

Just the perfect side, really.

I haven't seen that.

Oh, it's so good.

It's called American Duos, and it is hilarious.

And he plays the Simon Cowell of the group.

It's so good.

Yeah, I'll watch anything he's in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This next question came up on my research.

Is Muppet Treasure island kind of the darkest Muppet movie we got?

I think it's the only one where

someone dies, which is another great moment where Rizzo's just like, he died.

This supposed to be a kids movie?

Yeah.

You know, weirdly, I actually think the great Muppet caper is, tonally, a little darker.

Yes.

Someone dies in this one.

But, like, tonally, it's a little.

It's weirder.

Like, it's.

It's.

It was made in the 80s.

It's a heist movie.

The.

The.

The villain in it is.

Is really dark in the way that he deals with Miss Piggy, especially, like, how he tries to seduce her, then blames her for the.

The theft of these diamonds.

Like, I don't know.

It's.

That's a hard question.

It's.

It's either the darkest or the second darkest.

I could definitely Say that.

What do you think?

I don't know.

It's not dark to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's very light.

It's hard for me to ever think anything is dark.

That's not like, straight horror.

Brutal horror.

I think, though, that it could be just my own brain, but to me, it's like a light, beautiful Muppet movie.

So.

I don't know.

I do actually think the episode of the Muppet show that Alice Cooper was on was a little darker.

Oh, that one's amazing.

It's so good.

That's the best show.

It really is.

It's the most entertaining show ever.

First season was a little rough.

Everything after that was immaculate.

Yeah.

No, it's just.

I mean, but the fact is, like, Alice Cooper's on it.

Yeah.

I feel like Allison change should be on the new episodes.

Oh, that'd be so.

Yeah, I'd be down with that.

Get Jerry Cantrell on there.

I don't know.

That'd be funny.

Grateful.

Is this the.

You've seen Christmas Carol, which in some ways could be considered even.

Even darker than this.

Oh, I think so.

I mean, Christmas Carol's depressing.

Yeah.

But, I mean, it's always depressing.

It's depressing every time somebody does.

Are those the only two Muppet movies you've seen?

Okay.

Yeah.

Because I.

But I agree if.

I mean, since that's the only context they have between the two.

Christmas Carol is darker.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because, like, the scenes.

Because we got Michael Caine, who's an incredible dramatist, and, like, we got him going back and visiting his memory, he actually, like, delivers that.

It's a.

It's a silly movie.

Yeah.

But the movie.

The scenes where it's him going back to his past are actually really dramatic.

Oh, very.

I mean, the future scenes are very dramatic as well.

Yeah.

Oh, it's so depressing.

Yeah.

That's why I love it.

Yeah.

That's why it's the only Christmas movie I like.

It's nice and depressing.

And there's Muppets.

Yeah.

So I didn't get to add this to the randos because we kind of ran out of time.

But.

So Hormel Foods actually sued the movie over the Spam stuff spot.

Because he goes spot, he says, claims I'm a grotesque and noxious wild boar.

And Hormel thought this would ruin Spam's reputation because it was in such high.

It was such.

In high esteem at the time.

Yeah.

Everyone amongst my.

Outside of Asia and us white trash in the white trash community loved it.

Like, I've still never had it.

Yeah.

Either.

Is this the greatest, like, overreaction ever?

Absolutely.

Sue the Muppets because they made fun of Spam.

You should be lucky that you're talking about Spam at all.

Yes.

Free advertising.

Yeah.

Anybody who likes Spam is not going to dislike Spam all of a sudden.

Yeah.

And anybody who, like, wasn't going to eat it in the first place is not going to change their mind all of a sudden.

Yeah.

Let's just, like.

Let's just have some canned meat.

Exactly.

Let's break down what you just said.

What would have to happen.

Think about it.

I love what you just said.

Yeah.

Oh, the end of the world.

Yes.

This happens in the film.

Yeah.

A person who likes Spam is watching it and then decides, nah, that's not for me anymore.

Yeah.

What's the.

What is the breakdown of thought there?

I mean, you're lucky to have it being talked about at all.

They're just gonna go and be like, oh, my God, I want a Spam sandwich right now.

Yeah.

That's all.

I would think.

Even if it was a derogatory use of something I like.

I'm going to go eat that right now.

It'd be like if they said something bad about black licorice.

It's like, you're lucky to get any attention.

Yeah.

I don't care what you think.

I love black licorice.

Yeah.

Well, not black licorice.

I like black.

The Easter eggs.

Oh.

Which is licorice flavor.

I'm actually a licorice jelly bean guy.

Yeah, same.

Yeah, It's.

It's one or the other.

It's either everything else or black licorice.

Yeah.

I know this is weird, but when I eat black jelly beans, I'm like, is this like Copenhagen?

It's like the equivalent to eating Copenhagen.

It's not for everybody.

Yeah.

It's like clove cigarettes.

Yeah.

It's like something's wrong with us.

I. I get it.

But they do sell only the black ones, and then that's the only one that has the only color in a bag.

So I'm just saying we're right.

But that's all.

Yeah.

Gosh.

Now I'm just like, all these rabbit trolls.

I'm gonna go get some.

I want to be in the room when the guy says, put the black licorice one in there.

They got strawberry.

They got the pink one, the white one.

Which one is the white one?

Is it pina colada?

It's good.

That or just straight coconut.

Yeah.

Old People like the black.

The licorice one.

Yeah, yeah.

It's an old people flavor.

The guy who decided the black one was going to be there is just, like, in a corner of cigarette.

Like, put the black licorice one in there.

Do it for Grampy is the best in sales.

It sells probably more than the other.

Probably.

Yeah.

He's the same guy that Taco Bell hired.

Same shit, different rapper, the whole menu.

The same guy who put raisins and trail mix.

Yes.

Yeah.

Raisins in my bag right now.

His name's Bill.

He's on parole.

He's on parole for putting raisins in trail mix.

Yeah.

Love it.

Last one before the closer.

Should.

You kind of alluded to this earlier, but should the Muppets go back to making literary adaptions?

I absolutely think they should.

Adaptations Heights.

Yeah.

Yes.

Based on the new movie, Wuthering Heights.

The Muppets.

Oh, my God, Yes.

But you got to keep Margot Robbie and replace everyone else.

Yeah, yeah.

And then have Miss Piggy as the other girl.

It is first.

Perfect.

Oh, my God, I jumped in on your.

No, I. I love it.

I think they should like that.

The first few movies they made were very fun, very interesting, but I don't think overall, like, have held up to the popularity of.

Once Disney took them over.

Yeah, they.

They tried to do a Wizard of Oz, and I never watched it.

My mom absolutely hated it, and she loves the Muppets.

It got horrible reviews.

I think they tried to do a Haunted Mansion, which only barely beat out the.

The reboot that dis.

Of the actual haunted mansion.

Yeah.

I just.

I. I feel like they need to go back to the very classical literature and bring the.

Like, if they did an Oliver Twist, like, how great would that be?

That'd be great.

Yeah.

Like, there's so much that they could pull from.

From classical literature that I think they should.

I think they could do a Frankenstein if they wanted to and make it work.

Like Heart of Darkness.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

They shouldn't redo Apocalypse Now.

They should redo Heart of Darkness, but with everyone but Francis Ford Coppola's replacement,

I could actually see one of the characters saying the horror, actually.

Or Rizzo would be great too.

Yeah.

I think they should do all of the Lord of the Rings with the mob.

Yeah.

But Ian McKellen is still getting.

Yeah, yeah.

And Ian McKellen's still in it.

He's the one guy.

Gonzo and Rizzo are Frodo and Sam.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The way.

The way Aragorn the way you two are answering this actually made me realize something, that this.

This brand, whatever you want to call it, the Muppets, like, it can translate to so many mediums.

Yeah, absolutely.

Any kind of entertainment.

Let's go everywhere.

Here's, like, vampires.

Yes.

And garlic.

Come on, Coogler.

In the same way that Tim.

Tim Curry crawled so Jim.

Jim Carrey could run.

I think the Muppets crawled so Wishbone could run.

You remember Wishbone?

Oh, yeah, the dog.

The detective dog with.

With the coat and the hat.

Yeah.

But also reenacted classic literature, because that was his other thing.

And, like, I think the Muppets could.

Could come back strong.

Like, if they adapted a Sherlock Holmes book, that'd be great.

Like, there's so much that they could do, and I think Disney is horribly underutilizing them.

Yeah.

What the hell, Disney?

It's like, you don't have any money.

I'm still bitter about them closing down Muppet Mania or whatever it was called.

I only wrote it once at Disney World.

Even though they are replacing, you know it, they're moving it over to what was the Rock and Roller Coaster, and they're replacing it with a Electric Mayhem Roller Coaster, which.

That's the band, the.

The house band, the one who was on the.

The cruise ship.

Oh, speaking of music, we have to talk about how this is one of Hans Zimmer's earliest.

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

Scores.

Insane.

Oh, my God.

You can tell.

You can hear the.

The Pirates of the Caribbean.

It's gonna come out later.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

I love.

Because he was just coming off of Lion King when he did this.

Amazing.

His career is insane.

Oh, my God.

Yes.

Jesus.

You're probably Han Zimmer's biggest fan.

You've seen him in concert, right?

Twice.

Twice.

Yeah.

I have a shirt with his name on it.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

No, I saw Clint Manzel in concert.

Okay.

Yeah.

It was.

Oh, my God, it was so good.

Yeah.

Clinton.

I'm that way with Clinton's Bell.

He's my favorite.

He's absolutely fantastic as well.

I have the Requiem for a Dream soundtrack over there.

Yeah, I'm like that with Cliff Martinez.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Another good one.

Yeah.

Closer.

Who or what won this for you and who or what lost this for you?

I mean, I'm pretty biased.

There really isn't anything that has ever lost this movie for me.

It's a perfect adaptation of of how they do adaptations.

The only Treasure island adaptation that even comes close to this for me is Treasure Planet, which is also an underrated Disney movie.

What wins this for me?

And I'm sorry, you guys are gonna have to pick something else, but it's Tim Curry.

This movie does not exist without Tim Curry.

Like, oh, my God.

He.

He just.

There's some unspoken energy that he had when he came on this set that I think set the mood for the entire production.

He's visibly having a blast.

Absolutely.

And I think his energy just made everyone.

No matter how tumult production got, which when you're dealing with puppets, it's very hard because all the sets have to be built, like, five feet off the ground so that people can be under the set with the puppets.

So, yeah, I think he.

He just absolutely sold this movie and it would never have worked without him.

Love that.

For me.

The Muppets won it for me.

Okay, The Muppets.

The Muppets.

The Muppets.

Specifically Rizzo, But I'm obsessed with all of them.

Of them.

I love Rizzo because I feel like he would be my little buddy.

I feel bad.

And he would just like me sitting on my shoulder, like, forever.

What lost it for me, though?

There's one thing, and it will be the pre.

Prepubescent singing voice.

The beautiful child that I cannot believe was 12 years old.

Yes.

Because he looks like he's almost 20.

Yeah.

Every time I've said it is.

Well, I guess by the time they got to production, he was 14.

Yeah.

But he looks so much older than that.

Yeah.

Just from that time period, like, it was the 90s.

Everyone was in smoking sections and breath.

Everyone in secondhand smoke.

Why?

I remember it.

I was covered in secondhand smoke my whole childhood.

But, yeah, it's just the singing voice really took it.

I had to mute it, and I was like, just let the Muppets sing.

Yeah.

It really did sound like those.

Whatever they're called, the Falsettos.

Yeah.

Castratos.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's it.

That's all.

Yeah.

Otherwise, perfect.

I'll go a little more philosophical with my answer.

I think what won it for me is that I, you know, know I didn't grow up watching children's stuff.

I skipped right to the hard stuff.

And, you know, and.

But this wore me down.

I was really.

I'll be honest, I was annoyed for about 20, 30 minutes there.