Dr Katta Spiel is an Assistant Professor at TU Wien, a recent ERC Starting Grant recipient, and a good colleague of mine. 

In the first part of this two-part conversation Katta shares their experiences on a range of topics like career uncertainty, rejection of proposals, coming out as queer, having a formal gender change, dealing with chronic health issues, and being successful in receiving a prestigious research council grant. Dr. Spiel's struggles and successes reflect their unyielding effort to change academic life for the better. An emphasis is also placed on the importance of authenticity and uncompromised approach when applying for grants. Part two of the conversation with Katta will delve deeper into the topic of neurodivergence and their ADHD experiences.

Overview:

0:00 Introduction

02:42 Navigating Identity and Academia

07:06 Exploring Alternative Career Paths

09:37 The Journey to Recognition and Success

10:34 Challenges and Triumphs in Grant Applications

23:07 Understanding the Difference Between Access and Accessibility

25:48 Personal Journey of Gender Identity and Health

33:58 Experiences with Chronic Health Issues

38:10 The Impact of Body Shape on Medical Treatment

40:16 The Role of Technology in Access and Inclusion

43:23 End

Related Links:

Katta's personal web page, TU Wien web page, LinkedIn page, and announcement about their ERC Starting Grant

People: Raja Kushalnager, Christian Vogler , Abraham Glasser

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

Welcome to part one of

my conversation with Dr.

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Katta Spiel.

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Who's an assistant professor from

the technical university of Vienna.

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Or TU Wien as is our English name.

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As full disclosure, Katta is a

valued colleague of mine at TU Wien.

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And I was also the co-supervisor

back in the day when they did their

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PhD . So it is a little bit challenging

interviewing someone so close, but

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I felt like Katta just has so much

to share on so many different topics

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that it would be worth giving it a go.

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So in part one here Katta shares their

experiences of, a range of topics

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covering things like career uncertainty.

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Having proposals rejected.

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Navigating coming out as queer and

having a formal gender change and also

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dealing with some chronic health issues.

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And in the middle of all this they've

also been really successful by some

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external measures, including having just

been recently awarded a very prestigious

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European research council grant.

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In part two, we'll go on then to

further discuss their experiences

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and, and this time focusing more on

neurodivergence and embracing that.

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So getting started here on part one.

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You may need some context to make sense

of the beginning of our conversation.

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So I had wanted to interview

Katta quite a while ago.

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But they had said previously that they

didn't really feel safe to share these

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various aspects of their identities

while they were still on the job market.

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And so Katta starts here bouncing

off my introduction about us.

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Finally, getting to sit down to chat.

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And starts off reflecting on

the uncertainties of not having

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a permanent position and, why

they felt unsafe to chat.

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Great that we could finally sit

down and have this chat Katta

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. Thank you for doing it with me.

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Do you just want to introduce yourself?

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Katta: So, yeah, it meant it has

been a while also because I didn't

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feel too, too safe about like.

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The bunch of identities that I can,

like, you know, be vaguely, or could

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for a long time be vaguely, um, like,

there was plausible deniability about

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a bunch of them, and I, um, as long as

I felt like I was kind of dependent on

41

the job market and on, on kind of other

things, I didn't feel too, too comfortable

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necessarily talking about these things,

and then, you know, just life and things.

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Because, like, at some point I wrote

all these papers about these things,

44

and then I was like, It was public

knowledge, if people looked close enough.

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And I mean

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Geri: We will talk about those

identities in a tick for people who

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are wondering what they might be.

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Katta: But I guess, like, one of the

biggest things, honestly, why I would

49

do that now is because, and it sounds

so weird, But now I'm happy to talk

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about academia or whatever, um, because

I don't feel like this is the only

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thing I can do anymore, and like, I

don't feel I'm dependent on my peers

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judgment or what have you, or like,

even within the faculty, there is a

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freedom, like, you know, being like, what

are you gonna do, not give me tenure?

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Okay, I can do other things, like,

I don't need this, I can go to other

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places if I wanted to, or like, You

know, just having that kind of, like,

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standing is, is incredibly liberating.

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Geri: So, what particularly

led to that sense of standing

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or having other possibilities?

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Katta: So, I mean, they always keep on

saying, like, you should have a plan B

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that is at least as attractive as plan A.

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And I was kind of like,

but it's like so true.

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Like, the thing is, like, I, I kind of

felt for a long time that I Um, that

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I couldn't do anything else other than

academia and like, you know, because

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like it was always like, why is my

other option doing like UX interfaces

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for banks, which, you know, is like, is

absolutely valid as a career and it's

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like something, it's just not for me.

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Like I didn't see myself there.

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Right.

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And it just didn't ring with me.

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And I, I kind of like felt

like I was so removed from.

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From like my core studies and like went

so deep into a niche that I wouldn't

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necessarily be able like that's not even

true I have learned that since then too,

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but like I Kind of like was so in that

system that I felt like there was no

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But like I was so much in that system I

kind of felt like there was no other way

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to do this and then I, I think the moment

that I always relate to in that regard

76

was when I had COVID for the first time.

77

Um, because I was really sick.

78

Um, and then my partner got sick and I had

to like do all the childcare duty as well.

79

And so like, you know, um, it was

just like, it was only like two or

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three weeks, but like only because

I had longer health scares before,

81

but like it was just two or three

weeks, but I couldn't really do a lot.

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And I came back to it and I had

a rejection that was based on.

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For a funding proposal that started

with a sentence that was basically

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like queer theory has nothing

to do with academia That's okay.

85

Like we can have that discussion, but

then you shouldn't evaluate my proposal.

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I had the feeling there was a lot of

pressure from peers as to because I

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was involved in conference organization

and And I had felt that pressure of

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like, you know Why weren't you around?

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And I was like, I was sick.

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But also there's like a different kind

of culture around that internationally.

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I feel sometimes particularly

stemming from the U.

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S.

93

I'm going to say that.

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Like it's not even people.

95

It's just like, you know, there's

like, you see the system there is

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so much different compared to here

when it comes to kind of like taking

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time off or like, you know, you

have kind of this focus on self care

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because there is no systemic care.

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And like, you can see that being

perpetrated even incidentally.

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Right.

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And so I had the feeling I had let people

down because, um, because everybody

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was expecting me to work through COVID,

which like didn't make any sense to

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me because like, I was really Sick..

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And then, um, and then that

happened and that happened.

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And then I felt like, you know, I, uh,

that was done also briefly after that.

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Um, uh, there was the announcement

that they didn't have money at

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the university anymore for the

job that I'm sitting in now.

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Like they found the money again,

but like, I essentially stood

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there like, it's going to happen.

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And then I saw that there was, there

is like a study degree that you can

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do, um, while you're holding a job.

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In sign language interpretation and sign

language was kind of my covert project.

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Because I could commit to

that when I didn't have to go

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to conferences all the time.

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And so, um, I saw the study degree.

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I was like, this is way too early for me.

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Like, I was not really good at signing.

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I'm still like, you know, I'm okay.

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I'm like, not, I'm not great at signing.

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Um, I wouldn't say, but, um, Um, but I

felt it was a bit early for that move,

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but it only happens every three years.

122

And so, and I was kind of like fed

up with that, like there was just so

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much that happened kind of that I was

like, well, I'm going to try and if

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not, then I can either try in three

years again, or like what is going

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to happen other than I apply and they

say no, it's like the same situation.

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And like, I didn't expect to get it.

127

Uh, and then I got in and I was

like, well, I guess I'm doing that

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now into, into the study degree.

129

Yeah.

130

Yeah.

131

Geri: Were you thinking then

that the signing might be

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an alternative career path?

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Katta: Yes, exactly.

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And even if, um, if I would stay in

academia, that could be something.

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Like, Austria is very small.

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So there are like 130 sign language

interpreters, um, in total.

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And none of them are

either inter or trans.

138

And so, there are a handful of people who

are deaf and out as inter or trans, like,

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it's not a lot of people, but they don't

have anyone necessarily relatable to.

140

And so I felt like that would still

be a service that I could do as a side

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gig, even, like, where I would just be

available for specific instances there.

142

Where I just have kind of

that community experience.

143

Um, yeah.

144

Like, now I'm doing that and, uh, I, I

see myself maybe, you know, reducing my

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hours at one point and do academia part

time, which I find an actually quite

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attractive kind of like notion, right?

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Like being like, Hey, how about I do

this, like, you know, 50 percent or

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whatever and like do then the interpreting

or, you know, if I don't get tenure,

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then I can just do it full time because

half of interpreting is research.

150

So it's like, mm.

151

Yep.

152

Yeah.

153

Same thing.

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Geri: So, so many threads

to pick up on there.

155

And, uh, we've worked together

for a long time as well.

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so trying to also think about

people who might not have the

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shared background that we have.

158

Do you want to just give a little

bit more about your background in

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terms of, you know, disciplinary

areas where you've come from?

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Katta: Yeah.

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So I've, uh, I've done

two bachelor degrees.

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Um, uh, student by life,

uh, by profession or so.

163

No.

164

Um, anyway, uh, so yeah, I have two

bachelor degrees, one in cultural

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studies and one in computer science.

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And then I have a combined master

kind of with a focus on computer

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science and actually cryptography.

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Um, that was my jam.

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And then I did a PhD here at TU Wien.

170

Um, I did the other degrees

in Weimar in Germany at the

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Bauhaus, because it sounds fancy.

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Um, and then, uh, yeah, then I was at

Leuven for a year, then I came back

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here, um, with my own funding, and

then they said, like, cool funding

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you got there, now you can have a

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Geri: which was quite a

prestigious Austrian fellowship,

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Katta: at least for us.

177

It was also interesting, because,

like, I do all these things

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without thinking they are false.

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That's true.

180

Like, no, it's actually funny because

like constantly I do things where I'm

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like, that's never going to work out.

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Like it was with the study degree,

but it was also with that funding.

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I was like, cause I knew that

my legal gender would change

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while they would evaluate it.

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And it was funding that was

initially only for women.

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And then, um, I was like, I want to see

what the system does when that happens.

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Um, and like I informed them immediately

when my legal gender changed to,

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um, in Germany it's called diverse.

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We can talk about that, but like, you

know, a non binary gender, um, and I

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informed them that that is the case,

and that I'm inter, and um, that it,

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I leave it up to them how they're

going to deal with that situation.

192

They were like, noted,

we're going to discuss this.

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And then it had apparently like, the,

the head of the funding body, which was

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the national funding body in Austria, so.

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It was a bit funny.

196

Yeah, so the, the, the curatorium,

it's how they're called, I think,

197

they have discussed your case and

you will be evaluated further.

198

And I was like, thanks, thank you.

199

And then I even got it.

200

And the funny thing about that is because,

like, I did write a proper proposal, like

201

it wasn't a joke proposal or anything,

but I wrote one that made no compromises

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in terms of what I wanted to do.

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Like, it didn't try to

pander to reviewers.

204

And then that was what

surprised me so much then that

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I got it because I was like.

206

I was not trying to do any

of the strategic things.

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And it was funny because later,

afterwards, I was one of the, like, you

208

know, people who have done it before

at an internal seminar here at TU Wien.

209

And so I listened to what they

suggested what you should do.

210

And it was things like, never

say you want to be with, like,

211

your advisor or whatever.

212

And I came back to the same institute

and you were my formal advisor back then.

213

And so I did that wrong and then

there were a bunch of things

214

that you could do wrong and I

basically did all of them wrong.

215

Geri: By, by playing the strategic game.

216

Yeah.

217

Those rules.

218

Katta: If you could, you could be more

strategic about it and I was just not.

219

And I was so surprised that it then

even like, even after the fact that it

220

worked out, but like, you know, it did.

221

Geri: Yeah.

222

It's interesting to think about

if it would have been, oh no,

223

you need a parallel universe.

224

If it would've been as successful

if you weren't as authentic

225

and, and uncompromising.

226

Katta: Yeah.

227

That is like then what I keep telling

people sometimes, like if you dare to

228

just, um, I shouldn't swear, but like , if

you dare to then just like, I guess like

229

do the thing that you want to, but I

know also that it's really difficult and.

230

And even I can only get there when I'm not

that afraid of like how it could work out.

231

Geri: Yeah, I was, I was just going to

say how much, um, of a factor did it

232

play that it wasn't something that you

really, really, really, really wanted, it

233

seemed like you held it quite lightly.

234

Katta: Yes.

235

Um, I mean, that was different with

the funding that I got recently

236

where I also didn't expect that

I would get it and also wrote it.

237

in a fairly uncompromising

fashion, but I did be, I did,

238

I was more strategic about it.

239

And it was a bit more nervous also

because it didn't only affect me.

240

And then it did suddenly.

241

And then, you know, it didn't again,

but, um, it's also about like, you know,

242

giving people the opportunity to work

in a field that they want to work in.

243

And, um, and so I, I took, um, I feel like

there, it was a bit different even, like,

244

even though I, I similarly kept on, held

on to some things, I, I remember that I,

245

for example, like, my early thing was, uh,

was titling it something around Crip Stuff

246

and all that, and I had, like, internal

people here from your, from support

247

services be like, well, at least people

will remember that, because, like, they

248

probably have not understood Crip Studies

necessarily, and, like, you're kind of,

249

like, going in with, like, a bang there.

250

And maybe you want to do a softer entry

and all that and I listened to that and

251

I did that and like it also worked out

but I'm not sure I would have necessarily

252

if I wouldn't have felt that that was

actually a thing that I would want if

253

it would follow through even though I

didn't believe that that and not even

254

for myself but like I know because you

said taking on their responsibility

255

Geri: You said that The value of

that grant in particular is all

256

the positions that it gives for

other people that you care about

257

and, and enabling their careers.

258

And we should just say that

this is an ERC, grant, which is

259

really incredibly prestigious in

Europe for those who don't know.

260

And so congratulations, Kata.

261

Katta: Yeah, um, yeah, I still haven't

like people keep on like you celebrate it.

262

Yeah, and I'm like, um, no

Not sure What's to celebrate?

263

So like yeah,

264

Geri: is it that it doesn't feel?

265

Real or what?

266

Katta: Well, I'm also like there's still

like things could still go wrong, right?

267

There is no grant agreement that has

been signed yet and like, you know Maybe

268

I've not been ethical enough with the

stuff and the EU is not going to tell

269

me they can't fund it because of ethics.

270

Geri: Although you did get a

reviewer comment that it was

271

one of the best ethics sections.

272

Katta: That was at the other

273

Geri: Ah, okay.

274

And you would have brought the same

sensitivities to this proposal as well.

275

Katta: Um, we'll see, right?

276

Um, there is some stuff that is

highly sensitive, so I mean, I also

277

appreciate good guidance on that.

278

Um, yeah, I just like that.

279

Geri: So would you give people the advice

about thinking carefully about being

280

authentic and uncompromising as, as you

can be in your proposals rather than,

281

I don't know, I guess the opposite is

what filling it with all the buzzwords

282

that you think are the trendy buzzwords.

283

Katta: Yeah.

284

But then there's also the

question, how well can you do

285

it if you just follow them?

286

Whatever, you know?

287

Yeah.

288

Yeah.

289

But I mean, the thing is it just

changes or it changed for me, or

290

where this is a different situation

when it's funding for yourself.

291

Like the first one.

292

Yeah.

293

Um, or if it's funding for like, you know.

294

other people as well.

295

And that was kind of the shift that

for me made a huge difference in

296

terms of like how much I cared and

how much I felt like, you know,

297

to tone down some of the aspects.

298

But I mean, it's still talking

about sex and disability.

299

Like I don't, I didn't

take myself out of it.

300

I do want to research stuff where, you

know, there are Um, a lot of taboos and

301

there are a lot of kind of like, you

know, uh, hush, hush, like not looking

302

at it so closely because we feel like,

you know, it's sensitive and all that.

303

I do want to go there still, like that's

not, that's not where I compromise,

304

but like how I talk about it has

been more compromising because, yeah.

305

Geri: But it still sounds like

a negotiated playing the risks.

306

Katta: Yes.

307

But also I have no filter, right?

308

Like, there's just like so

much I can do in that regard.

309

Um, there's like, I can say this

slightly different so you can hear

310

that and it still makes sense.

311

And like both are of our heads, so

to speak, with that imaginary other,

312

but um, but there's also a thing of

like, I want you to feel uncomfortable

313

a little bit or like, you know,

where just don't take that agenda.

314

Geri: But do it in a way that brings

the reviewers along with you in terms

315

of the arguments for the validity

of the science and the, and the

316

contributions and the importance of it.

317

Katta: And I mean, I'm not sure whether

I do that necessarily very well.

318

I looked at those reviews and it

was funny because you, with the

319

EU, you don't get them before

you have the oral presentation.

320

And it was so interesting because

I saw them and then I realized that

321

it was actually like just by chance

because I couldn't have known.

322

But by chance I had my 10 minute kind of

like, you know, presentation and I covered

323

90 percent of the critique and comments.

324

And I was like Well anticipated.

325

That was pretty smart, I guess.

326

But like, not to be planned for.

327

Geri: Were you able to do that because

of previous discussions you'd had with

328

support people or peers who gave feedback

on drafts who maybe sensitized you to what

329

some of the questions might have been?

330

Katta: Uh, yeah, I mean, I did that

internally like three or four times

331

because there was also another interviewer

involved, um, for a different funding

332

body that decided not to give me money.

333

Well, they're like, I sound a

bit miffed and I am, but that's

334

again, not necessarily for me.

335

But, um, but also, I mean, I keep on

saying we all think that our topics are

336

the most important because like you need

some kind of passion to go after them.

337

But just in the, in the state of things,

um, I found there was kind of a focus put

338

on specific kind of disciplines, um, to

the loss of anything that would qualify

339

as like, you know, humanities or like

deep kind of like engagements with like

340

culture as it is, um, or, or sociological

topics or just larger groups of people

341

and how they operate within society.

342

And so, I mean, there was one

project that got awarded that was.

343

Coming close to that.

344

But like other than that, it was

very much, um, kind of like the

345

natural sciences for a funding

scheme that is across the board.

346

And I think, and that's not just about

me, I think it's like a loss to, um,

347

to, uh, towards the community as such,

like the academic community as such,

348

but also towards upcoming academics

and like people who might be interested

349

in different ways of knowing and

bringing their stuff in that there

350

is like such a, such a solid focus.

351

on, on very specific kind of projects.

352

So that was the shame because they also

get like a lot of publicity and these

353

topics are then set as important research

topics and like relevant things we wanted

354

to like, you know, research in Austria.

355

And I felt a bit like, of course,

also with my stuff with around access

356

and disability and like minority

bodies and all that, but also that

357

there was just like none of these

kind of like, you know, questions or.

358

Or considerations, um, that just

surprised me a little bit, I guess,

359

that there was like little of that,

very little at least, um, to be fair.

360

Geri: And especially when so many of

the challenges that we're dealing at

361

a societal level require such diverse

disciplinary perspectives to address

362

in more holistic, effective ways.

363

Maybe this will be a point of reflection

for funding bodies later on, who knows.

364

But, you named your research agenda, uh,

just then really is about accessibility

365

Katta: and, um, Well not

accessibility, it's access.

366

Geri: It's access and

disability and minority bodies.

367

And those themes also seem to be

quite biographical for you as well.

368

Katta: Well, to some

extent, not to all of them.

369

I also work with deaf people

nowadays because there aren't just

370

enough other people who, um, like

where, I don't want to be arrogant.

371

I don't know of, of anyone else

who has the level of signing that

372

I have in my field, in Austria.

373

Like in my field, yes,

there are deaf people.

374

Like there is Raja Kalnagaraga and

like Christian Vogler at Gallaudet

375

and then there are people at RIT

who, who like do amazing work.

376

Like Abraham Glasser and like,

you know, uh, like there are deaf

377

people who have better levels of

signing and also do amazing research.

378

Um, in Austria that, uh, is not the case.

379

It's also there are differences

in the education system and

380

all that and the change.

381

But because of that, um, I do work with

deaf people, even though I'm hearing.

382

And that's not autobiographical,

like the autobiographical stuff.

383

Cause like you want it to go there now?

384

Yeah,

385

Geri: we can go there.

386

Just first, can you just

clarify how you see access and

387

accessibility as being different?

388

Katta: Well, I actually have these

interesting also kind of like discussions

389

because, um, and it's a work that

I'm currently still trying to get to

390

the definitory like differences, but

essentially what I'm interested in and

391

why I keep on focusing on access and I

don't see access as a one time thing.

392

I see it as a process and as something

that you stay involved in, but also that

393

is give like, not necessarily given to

you that is like to me, access is more

394

of, um, Um, it's more of something that

is like attuned to how your body acts in

395

the world and how you are acting within

your environment or other people, whereas

396

accessibility is kind of like, um, an

afterthought a little bit or like, you

397

know, a kind of like the special thought.

398

So it's a bit like, um, It's a

bit like providing, um, and it's

399

just going to be my example now

because we've talked about that.

400

Just now, but, um, providing education

in sign language is something very

401

different, like, when the, when the

teachers, like, illustrate things in

402

sign language than when it goes through

interpreters, where you always have an

403

indirect kind of, like, processing and,

like, uh, translation from even a logic

404

that is geared towards a hearing audience

versus a logic that is more visual, like,

405

you have these kind of things that, that

just, like, add on to, like, um, It's

406

a way of interacting with the world.

407

So, accessibility to me is kind of like

we have that norm of how we do things

408

and then here is a way in for you.

409

And access is to me that

you have the way in there.

410

But like directly.

411

Geri: Is access more person centered

and accessibility more thing centered?

412

Katta: I'm not sure.

413

I do wonder, like I, like, as I said,

like I'm currently very much like this

414

is like ongoing thinky work, but um,

thinky work, that sounds very academic.

415

Um, but like, uh, like that's where I

try to like get to the definitory, like

416

grounding and all that, but yeah, um,

so that's what I've been thinking on.

417

I'm not sure it's

necessarily person centered.

418

I feel like even that access is

is, is more like intent and like

419

interaction centred, ultimately,

whereas accessibility is like, can

420

be thing or person centred really.

421

Geri: So you, you've mentioned about,

um, getting a legal gender change during

422

process of applying for a grant and that,

do you want to talk about that process?

423

That whole experience of being

gender diverse and inter.

424

Katta: Well, I mean, to an extent

that's just how I live my life, right?

425

Like, so it's a bit normal for me.

426

And I keep on saying that I actually

don't have a lot of interest in talking

427

about it, but I have to continuously,

um, because of like all these systems

428

requiring me to, um, To disclose a gender

that I don't have, um, but, uh, more to

429

the point, um, it was very affirmative

to kind of like have, like that moment

430

when I had that passport just, um, like

that because it was, it was validating my

431

experiences in like some weird way, but,

um, so I've, uh, um, Um, I've been, uh,

432

undergoing hormone therapy since I was

like nine or ten, um, without necessarily

433

knowing that that was the case, or my

parents knowing that that was the case,

434

um, and it followed back then medical

standards as well, um, to do it that

435

way and also to keep people in the dark.

436

So it's like, I'm not making

anyone, like, I'm not actually.

437

That was a systems failure, right?

438

And it also took me a while to understand

what was happening there either.

439

And then end of my twenties or

so, like I always felt kind of

440

like not belonging to any of that.

441

And then I saw an intergroup in Germany

once and I was like, Huh, I kind of like

442

feel like them, but I have like absolutely

no understanding of why that is.

443

Because like, I didn't have surgeries.

444

Well, I actually did, but later.

445

And I wasn't even aware that

that also was related, but yeah.

446

And, um, and anyway, uh, there was a

bunch of stuff where I had to kind of

447

like piecemeal it together that that is

who I am, um, and, and what my actual

448

like biological, so to speak, like what

my body does with my gender and like, so,

449

or with my sex, even like, if you want to

make that differentiation, which I feel

450

a bit uncomfortable about, but like my

body was just like, you know, not going.

451

Um, Um, clearly one way or another,

especially like on a hormonal level.

452

And then I stopped taking those

hormones and I felt so much better.

453

Um, like there was like some, I

had several reasons of why I was

454

chronically depressed for the longest

time of my life, but like one of

455

those like lifted a little bit.

456

And then, um, and then

I stopped doing that.

457

And, um, that also meant that, you know,

Uh, at some point I stopped and shaving

458

because like I had a beard actually

the entire time like less so with

459

the hormones, but still it was there.

460

Um, and then I stopped shaving.

461

That was out of spite because, uh,

because one psychiatrist said like they

462

don't believe in creating a reality

that just follows my imagination.

463

And I was like, I'm going to show you

what my reality is because like, you

464

know, I don't think you understand.

465

Um, And, yeah, it also has been

filling in over the years, which

466

is kind of neat because I like it.

467

And, um, and then, uh, two years

ago, not quite, I had top surgery,

468

and that was also very interesting

in that regard, because I, um, like,

469

I had top surgery, and now I have

a flatter chest, which is great.

470

But also, like, they came

back and were like, well, you

471

kind of have artificial boobs.

472

Which, like, there wasn't a

lot of kind of, like, you know.

473

Classical, um, like, I didn't

have a lot of milk ducts, I

474

think is the English word.

475

And all that, like, it was more of a

classically male chest to begin with.

476

And I was like, huh, so you mean, like,

if I wouldn't have taken all those

477

hormones, I wouldn't have had, so this

was a corrective measure of actually

478

just, like, creating [A corrective measure

of a supposedly corrective measure].

479

Where somebody else, like, you know,

tried to, you know, adapt reality

480

towards, you know, what wasn't the case.

481

Um, but, like, yeah.

482

Anyway, so, that was, uh, that was

kind of like the journey to now.

483

Geri: So, you came out as queer

sort of during your PhD process.

484

Katta: Yeah, um, I mean I was trying to

be plausible in my ability, like that is

485

kind of like a thing that I tried for a

lot of things, but, there as well, because

486

I didn't know what the community was like,

487

conference and that was very much like

where it was recognizable to peers but not

488

necessarily to non queer people, right?

489

Like that was very noticeable for

me and that was kind of like where

490

I wanted to be recognizable to

peers but not necessarily, you know,

491

flying under the radar for others.

492

Because I didn't know how safe

it was, or whether it was safe.

493

And I can also say now,

it is safer and non safer.

494

Like, not as safe as I wished it

would be, or thought it would be.

495

So, both.

496

So, don't think, like, and it's a strategy

that a lot of people might employ.

497

Like, just like, you know,

testing the waters a bit.

498

I mean, that was new for me, too.

499

And in 2017, I did the same thing.

500

And then I met others who were

also, like, doing the same thing.

501

Who have since come out.

502

Um, and then, um, and in 2018, there was

a keynote at a conference and it wasn't

503

even at the keynote, which is so funny

because I haven't actually seen it.

504

I just have seen the fallout.

505

But the fallout from that was that

suddenly, everybody seemed to clock me,

506

like, that plausible deniability went

away and I had to suddenly talk about

507

gender all the time and had to talk

about myself or being queer or like,

508

you know, non binary and all that and

like, because people were so angry and

509

like, um, they also tried to find people

that could talk about this and were more

510

alert towards like queer signage and I

suddenly felt myself having to explain

511

but also to having kind of like, even

though I wasn't like, Like fully in the

512

closet or anything, but like having to

more explicitly come out towards that.

513

Um, and in the same year I also like,

you know, then wrote the, um, wrote a

514

guidance for how to talk about gender

because I was angry about another

515

paper, but that's actually unrelated.

516

Um, with those authors, by the way,

which was really cool, just as a process,

517

but we can talk about this later.

518

Anyway, and like I had to,

um, I had then felt like.

519

I wasn't even mad about the keynote

as such and I was definitely not

520

mad at the general chairs who were

probably just like, you know, doing

521

their best and trying to figure

out how to do a great conference.

522

Um, and you know, we all kind of

like, I mean, I certainly haven't

523

always done the right thing, right?

524

Like, that's not the point.

525

Um, I felt also that, to me, my conference

experience was definitely impacted in

526

that I came to talk about, I think,

fitness trackers and like, you know,

527

other work that I found cool that I

wanted to talk about and then I suddenly

528

was pushed into, like, only talking

about gender in, in ways that I couldn't

529

fully understand where I could go and

all that because, I At least I don't

530

know of anyone else, I'm just thinking,

maybe one person, but like, um, I don't

531

know that many people who are out as

inter in general, and then I don't know

532

many in academia who are out as inter.

533

And so that makes it really hard.

534

Geri: And just for context for

people, um, the, the keynote.

535

Touched upon issues or talked about a

dating app and, uh, so there was sort

536

of issues in the, in the application

and more particularly the, the way

537

the binary notions of gender that

were discussed in the ways in which

538

those genders were talked about,

which triggered a lot of the thing.

539

But

540

Katta: I think there was also some

data, like how you interpret data

541

and then generalize over that.

542

And like, that just doesn't

cover people's experiences,

543

which is just bad data science.

544

Geri: So you also, talked about some

chronic health issues you touched upon

545

that you've so you've been dealing

with this, with coming to feel more

546

comfortable in your own identity and

finding your community, I guess, in a

547

way from what you've said and then on

the other side, feeling safe enough to.

548

Be authentic with that as well, sort

of more uncompromising with that.

549

And similarly, you've been dealing

with some chronic health issues.

550

Katta: Yeah, so if I would ever get to

a state where I would have, like this is

551

very hypothetical, a full professorship in

Germany, I would not get the Verbeamtung,

552

the thing of like, where you, um, where

you basically are, Like, I don't know

553

how to describe that, but basically

it's a better status of employment that

554

every other full prof has, because I

would be too ill, considered too ill.

555

Yep.

556

That's, uh, I feel discriminatory,

but like, you know.

557

Geri: She says, having just got

an ERC, says they, oh, dear.

558

They say,

559

Katta: no, it's fine.

560

It like happens, right?

561

Um, I'm not even, yeah.

562

Um, it's more like working on it.

563

Geri: It is.

564

It is Katta.

565

So, is there anything about

navigating that process and the,

566

around the chronic health issues?

567

Katta: Well, yeah, I mean, I, I do

like to have more control and insight

568

over my body than maybe others.

569

Like, my sister always makes fun

of me that I have to measure my

570

sugar levels like every 20 minutes

because otherwise I wouldn't live.

571

Um, which is not necessarily the

case, but I do it quite often because

572

I have a sense of, like, an innate

sense of, like, curiosity about data.

573

But, um, but, uh, yeah, I mean.

574

Uh, I, I've just had a

bunch of things happening.

575

Like, um, my digestive system

is, is, um, is either in hyper

576

or in hypo drive, I guess.

577

And, um, um, yeah, just had

lots of surgery when I was,

578

um, in, during my studies.

579

Like, I basically spent a year in

hospital, um, because, like, I had some,

580

um, Issues that also required surgeries.

581

And then I got painkillers that I then

ended up reacting allergic to, even though

582

that is like extremely unlikely to happen.

583

And it was caught really late.

584

And then I already had a sepsis as well.

585

And so my immune system was down,

uh, additionally to that, like I

586

didn't have any white blood cells

and that was all very dramatic.

587

And.

588

It was all very dramatic.

589

Yeah, that is really serious.

590

Oh, yeah, yeah.

591

Um, no, no, I don't want to,

um, but, like, you know, it's

592

also been 15 years, 14 years.

593

Yeah.

594

Um, and, um, so the distance helps.

595

But, like, yeah, so I had, uh,

I had these health issues back

596

then, and they, and then the, that

doesn't mean that the digestive

597

system was still, like, you know.

598

Um, acting up and that took a few years

to kind of like come to a stage where

599

I'm at now ish, where it's a Knock on

wood, like, but I didn't have any surgery

600

related to that in the last five years

and I was like, whoo, what is happening?

601

And before that I had up to 10, 15

surgeries a year, like one year was really

602

intense and Yeah But, like, that is also

interesting because I don't have a fixed

603

diagnosis on any of that even though,

like, there are a lot of implications.

604

Geri: A lot of interventions.

605

A lot of physical issues and,

and the diabetes as well.

606

Katta: Oh, yeah.

607

But the diabetes is new to us.

608

Yeah.

609

But I had to, like, that is, like,

as a fat person, I'm going to tell

610

you, the medical system is a freak.

611

Now I sound like a conspiracy person,

but, like, that's not what I mean.

612

It's just so interesting because the

diabetes is such a classical thing where

613

I would say like, you know, and it's

often that you know It's said that you

614

know weight, you know, I said a lot

there But it's said that weight is a

615

risk factor for diabetes And that's not

actually necessarily clear because the

616

excess insulin with diabetes too that you

produce can and I have type 2 as far as

617

we know and But the excess insulin that

you produce is actually an anabolica, so,

618

um, or it falls in the group of anabolica.

619

And then, uh, that means you

actually have weight gain, right?

620

So it can be also an effect

and usually it's like a self,

621

like, um, both is, um, like.

622

And then, um, but that is the case, right?

623

And I gained weight and like I

kept on saying to doctors, isn't

624

the sugar level a little bit high?

625

And they were like, well, a

little bit, but you're fat.

626

And they were like kind of ignoring

it for so long that I had to.

627

Go to the ER at one point and that

shouldn't happen with type 2 because I was

628

almost in a diabetic coma because I had

so much sugar in my In my bloodstream And

629

again, that shouldn't be happening with

type 2 at all And yeah, so I was ignored

630

even though I was kind of like already

Hinting towards that and even with that

631

kind of like, so I sometimes feel like

the lack of diagnosis when, when there's

632

clearly like a lot of interventions

is also because people keep on putting

633

it towards the shape of my body,

which is not necessarily, um, helpful.

634

Yeah.

635

But, you know, that's that.

636

It's really hard to get

good care when you're fat.

637

Geri: Yeah.

638

You've also commented even on a lot of

the interaction technologies that we are

639

designing and dealing with and how they

don't, allow access for diverse bodies.

640

Katta: Yeah.

641

Yeah.

642

I mean, you could, um, I mean, most,

this has changed actually since then,

643

but like most fitness trackers for a long

time did only allow for binary genders.

644

Um, or, um, or like how, um, a lot of

the, like a lot of those, um, and in this

645

case it's not even, well, it depends.

646

Sorry, I'm thinking faster than I

speak again and that causes breaks.

647

But.

648

So in a lot of cases, weight loss

is seen as the ultimate goal,

649

which can be quite damaging.

650

Um, especially when people, um, have made

experiences with eating disorders and are

651

then, you know, prone to kind of like tap

into that again as a source of control.

652

Geri: It brings up this notion of what

we assume is normative, approaches

653

to all sorts of things, whether it's

Academia, gender filling in on forms,

654

um, goals for fitness trackers and so on.

655

Yeah.

656

And also with all of this, you also

talk about being neurodivergent.

657

Yes.

658

And I, I'm sitting here watching Katta,

do cross stitching as, as we're speaking.

659

Katta: Yeah.

660

.

Geri: And this is where we will leave it for part one.

661

I just want to acknowledge the additional

work that Katta has to do to assert their

662

rightful identity because of my mistake

in mis-gendering them and I'm grateful

663

to Katta for their patience and gracious

generosity in how they corrected me.

664

So keep an eye open or should I say,

keep an ear open for part two, where

665

category goes on to discuss how near

a divergence plays out for them.

666

You can find the summary

notes, a transcript and related

667

links for this podcast on www.

668

changingacademiclife.

669

com.

670

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

671

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672

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

673

And I'm really hoping that we can

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674

we can do academia differently.

675

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676

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677

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678

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