Caz Binstead joins Josephine Hughes to discuss the interplay between ethics and business in private practice counselling. They explore the importance of understanding the unique challenges faced by private practitioners, especially in the current landscape where nearly 70% of therapists are working in private practice. Caz emphasises that ethical practices are not just about client care but also about creating a sustainable business model that supports therapists' well-being and professional growth. The conversation touches on the isolation many therapists experience, the necessity of solid contracts, and the role of social media in fostering connections among practitioners. With insights into the changing demographics of the profession and practical advice for managing burnout, this episode offers valuable guidance for both new and established counsellors navigating the complexities of private practice.

Takeaways:

• The importance of being real in private practice marketing to connect with clients effectively.
• Isolation in private practice can lead to burnout, emphasising the need for community support.
• The role of ethical considerations in balancing therapeutic work with business boundaries.
• Social media can connect therapists but also has potential downsides that should be acknowledged.
• Pricing strategies in private practice should reflect experience and sustainability for practitioners.

private practice, therapy marketing, relational ethics, burnout in therapists, therapist community, supervision for therapists, Therapist Connect, counselling profession, ethical practice, therapy resources, private practice toolkit, therapy business, client retention, therapy fees, therapist isolation, professional development in therapy

Caz Binstead and Nicholas Sarantakis are authors of: Relational Ethics in Psychotherapy and Counselling Private Practice, part of the Ethics in Action series published in 2024 by Routledge. You can find Caz on her website HERE.

To find out more about Therapy Growth Group, please click HERE

Setting up in private practice? Download my free checklist HERE

Need ideas for how to get clients? Download my free handout 21 Ways for Counsellors to Attract New Clients HERE

You can also find me here:

The Good Enough Counsellors Facebook Group

Josephine Hughes on Facebook

Josephine Hughes on YouTube

My website: josephinehughes.com

The information contained in Good Enough Counsellors is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this podcast are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this podcast. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this podcast.

Josephine Hughes disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this podcast.

Caz Binstead: 00:00:01

So for example, I could have wonderful marketing and I might even nick a few ideas from the therapist down the road thinking, oh, that sounds good, I'll write that on my website.

Caz Binstead: 00:00:12

And then actually the client walks through the door and they sit down and we start talking and what's been put on my website or whatever doesn't actually connect with who I really am as a person.

Caz Binstead: 00:00:26

Okay, now what this means is that it's going to be less likely that the client will then go on and work with you.

Josephine Hughes: 00:00:40

So hello everyone.

Josephine Hughes: 00:00:42

I'm delighted today to welcome Caz Binstead, she her who is a private practice counsellor supervisor and a visiting lecturer.

Josephine Hughes: 00:00:51

So.

Josephine Hughes: 00:00:51

So I've known CAS for a while and I think we've talked before about when you set up the Private Practice toolkit for the bacp, haven't you?

Josephine Hughes: 00:01:00

And that's like a really good resource that's out there for anybody who's in BACP who's setting up a private practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:01:07

So it pulls together all the different resources that are available in one place, doesn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:01:11

So yeah, and the other way that I've come across CAS is online because of Therapist Connect.

Josephine Hughes: 00:01:17

So I don't know if you want to tell people a little bit about that Caz about Therapist Connect in case they haven't heard of it, but I expect they have.

Caz Binstead: 00:01:25

Yeah, absolutely.

Caz Binstead: 00:01:26

I mean, it's really nice to be back and we had a good old chat about the BACP Private Practice Toolkit last time.

Caz Binstead: 00:01:33

This book is kind of, I guess, the culmination of so much of my work in and with private practitioners, which as you've said there involves also my community work at Therapist Connect.

Caz Binstead: 00:01:46

And so Therapist Connect is a community platform.

Caz Binstead: 00:01:49

I mean it kind of says it on the tin what it's about, the name Connecting Therapists.

Caz Binstead: 00:01:55

But we've also been very interested from the start.

Caz Binstead: 00:01:58

We've run from: 2020

Caz Binstead: 00:02:02

So we've been very interested in getting conversations going about our profession, interested in, you know, the evolution of our profession, interested in giving a voice to all therapists in a, you know, non discriminatory way in terms of who people are and also what spheres they work in within our profession.

Caz Binstead: 00:02:24

So, yeah, it's been really lovely and hello to anyone from the Therapist Connect community who happens to be listening.

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:31

Yeah, brilliant.

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:32

That's fantastic.

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:33

The other thing I've written down is because I follow you on Instagram and you're also known there as the Night Owl counsellor, aren't You.

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:39

Yes, well, I think there might be a little reference in the book to the Night Owl.

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:43

You know, there's a bit, isn't there?

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:45

Perhaps we can come back to that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:46

And the other thing you do that I enjoy following is you're quite a keen photographer, aren't you?

Caz Binstead: 00:02:52

Yes.

Caz Binstead: 00:02:52

Oh, thank you for mentioning that.

Caz Binstead: 00:02:54

Yeah, I am.

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:56

And do you share, like, your pictures, don't you, and you reflect on what those.

Josephine Hughes: 00:03:01

The meaning that the pictures bring to you?

Caz Binstead: 00:03:03

Yeah, yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:03:04

This is very important.

Caz Binstead: 00:03:05

I mean, I am a creative person and, you know, I'm into.

Caz Binstead: 00:03:09

I do lots of things.

Caz Binstead: 00:03:10

I like poetry, music, some other things, but photography is really my main thing at the moment and it really means such a lot to me that you mentioned that, actually, so thank you.

Caz Binstead: 00:03:21

And yeah, I do.

Caz Binstead: 00:03:22

I.

Caz Binstead: 00:03:22

I put up photos and I kind of.

Caz Binstead: 00:03:24

I guess I put up my musings about life and yeah, I think it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:03:29

I mean, I like them because it provides a nice sort of reflective moment in my social feed.

Josephine Hughes: 00:03:35

So, you know, scrolling through and then there's a picture from you and some sort of reflection around it, which is, you know, something I enjoy about following you.

Josephine Hughes: 00:03:43

So how long have you been in private practice for, Kaz?

Josephine Hughes: 00:03:45

I imagine it's quite a while now.

Caz Binstead: 00:03:48

Yeah, yeah, I was just actually working it out.

Caz Binstead: 00:03:51

It's getting on for 13 years.

Caz Binstead: 00:03:53

So I've been in private practice since really.

Caz Binstead: 00:03:57

Since I qualified, which I didn't really ever plan to go into private practice, but.

Caz Binstead: 00:04:02

Because, you know, as we all know, it can be quite difficult with the job sector.

Caz Binstead: 00:04:08

But even back then it was difficult because there was an expectation that you would be accredited before you could get a job, and obviously that was kind of problematic if you qualified and you needed to.

Caz Binstead: 00:04:21

You needed to work and actually I had a.

Caz Binstead: 00:04:24

I had very close to 450 hours when I qualified because I really worked very hard as a student.

Caz Binstead: 00:04:31

So I was kind of, you know, I had a lot of experience, but, yeah, I kind of fell into private practice and.

Caz Binstead: 00:04:37

Yeah, and then just kind of muddled my way through and just worked everything out myself.

Josephine Hughes: 00:04:41

Yeah, as you did back then.

Josephine Hughes: 00:04:42

There wasn't a huge amount of, I think possibly, you know, you and I probably similar sort of time.

Josephine Hughes: 00:04:47

I started in: 2012

Josephine Hughes: 00:04:58

But of course that wasn't available when I went into private practice and it really was a case of sort of working it out as you went along.

Josephine Hughes: 00:05:05

And I was sort of quite lucky.

Josephine Hughes: 00:05:06

I had a really great supervisor and mentor who helped me out at the start and I was always grateful to her for some of the advice that she gave me.

Josephine Hughes: 00:05:16

Did you have any, anybody to sort of help you or was that supervision as well?

Caz Binstead: 00:05:21

Not really.

Caz Binstead: 00:05:22

There was, I was.

Caz Binstead: 00:05:23

The placement that I had been working in had quite a good setup in that they ran the NHS service in our area and they had a low cost service so they would allow clients to move in order to stay with a therapist if they wanted to.

Josephine Hughes: 00:05:39

Ye.

Caz Binstead: 00:05:40

And that's kind of how that was how I got my first three clients actually, because they let me take those clients from the low cost into my own very low cost private practice at that point.

Josephine Hughes: 00:05:51

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:05:52

And, and yeah, then when I kind of realized, okay, well if I'm going to have to do this for a bit, I just, yeah, I didn't really have any mentor or anything.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:00

Obviously I had my supervisor, but I really just, yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:04

Worked everything out on my own.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:06

And I, I mean I'm not you talking there about my photography.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:09

I'm a more of a creative person.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:11

So I'm not know, business, absolute kind of business brain going into things.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:17

But I also was very aware that you do, you do have to write, you are running a business.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:21

So I kind of just found my own way to run it.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:25

I just kind of, I guess tapped into who I was as an individual and worked it out from there.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:31

And then it was kind of my supervisor later down the line had said to me, you do know that you've really got something here.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:38

You know, you, you've set this all up on, on your own.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:42

You're constantly full.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:44

I mean, I have ever since I started, I've always been full.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:47

I've never dipped down.

Josephine Hughes: 00:06:48

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:48

What I would have wanted the amount of people I would have wanted to see or needed to see.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:53

So yeah, so that kind of led me to run my first course which was years and years ago.

Caz Binstead: 00:06:58

And of course, like you were saying back then, you know, there wasn't really, there wasn't really all the kind of the consultants and people like yourself and courses and stuff that we, that we see today.

Caz Binstead: 00:07:09

So.

Josephine Hughes: 00:07:09

Yeah, yeah, really interesting and I'm really sorry because I've sort of got carried away and I forgot to say that actually you're here to discuss the book.

Caz Binstead: 00:07:18

Yes, absolutely.

Josephine Hughes: 00:07:20

So she'll hold it up.

Josephine Hughes: 00:07:21

Yeah, hold it up and we'll get a picture of us both together.

Josephine Hughes: 00:07:24

Yay.

Josephine Hughes: 00:07:25

So I was very lucky to, to get a Review copy of Cassie's book, which is called Relational Ethics in Psychotherapy and Counselling Private Practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:07:34

And you have a joint co author, don't you?

Josephine Hughes: 00:07:37

And I'll let you say his name so I don't mispronounce it.

Caz Binstead: 00:07:40

Yes.

Caz Binstead: 00:07:41

So I'm the first author on the book and then the other author is Nicholas Sarantarakis.

Josephine Hughes: 00:07:46

And can you tell us who the book is aimed at?

Caz Binstead: 00:07:48

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:07:49

So I suppose first and foremost I would have in mind people who are new to the sector, so students who are looking to go into private practice.

Caz Binstead: 00:08:00

And you know, something I touch on in the book is the amount of preparation that you can actually do before you're qualified, before you've started private practice.

Caz Binstead: 00:08:10

And that that preparation is actually very important.

Caz Binstead: 00:08:12

So definitely recommend it to students looking to go into private practice, also those who are new to private practice or if you're coming across from, you know, having worked in employment.

Caz Binstead: 00:08:23

Because I do always say, and I know you would as well, Josephine, that private practice is a very niche sector and that's why it's so important that actually we can think about what are some of those differences that come up.

Caz Binstead: 00:08:36

And of course my specialist area and really what led into the toolkit work at BACP was the fact that I was very interested in two avenues.

Caz Binstead: 00:08:46

So the ethical, the ethics side of therapy and actually the therapeutic work and how that sits with the business side and growing your practice.

Caz Binstead: 00:08:57

And private practitioners need like things like money and stuff like that.

Caz Binstead: 00:09:02

So kind of looking at those two things together, having in mind, and this is my theory, which is the more ethical you are, the more sustainable your private practice is going to be.

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:16

Yeah, and I think that that comes across really strongly in the book and I think it's sort of like a theme throughout the book, which again I'd like to come back to in a little while because I think it's a really, really important thing.

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:27

I guess the thing that I really wanted.

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:29

Well, I mean, first of all, can you explain the three dimensional model that you use in the book?

Caz Binstead: 00:09:33

This three dimensional model is one of the things that, yeah, I think maybe really or hope will be useful because it comes from basically the three dimensions are the clients, the private practitioner and their business, and then kind of social context.

Caz Binstead: 00:09:52

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:09:52

And the work I'd previously done had taken the first two.

Caz Binstead: 00:09:56

So obviously, obviously the client is always at the heart.

Caz Binstead: 00:09:58

I mean, that's in the ethical frameworks, the client is at the heart of the work.

Caz Binstead: 00:10:02

But for me to ignore the role of the private practitioner and the and the impact of working in the context of a private practice and a business, to ignore that would be to actually have ethical issues coming up.

Caz Binstead: 00:10:19

So it's almost like it was.

Caz Binstead: 00:10:20

Almost like it's felt slightly taboo in ethics to say that anything other than that we think about anything other than the client.

Caz Binstead: 00:10:28

Of course, the client is first and foremost, but we have to think about these other factors in order to be ethical, to kind of bring them to the surface.

Caz Binstead: 00:10:38

So those two dimensions I'd already done a bit of work on, we added this third dimension, which is kind of other things that might have an effect.

Caz Binstead: 00:10:45

So things like our profession, you know, when they talk about being.

Caz Binstead: 00:10:49

Bringing the profession into disrepute, how does that factor, or, you know, community.

Caz Binstead: 00:10:55

Community as a whole, working with difference and diversity, as, you know, we live in a.

Caz Binstead: 00:11:01

In a world where everybody is different.

Caz Binstead: 00:11:04

How do we make sure that we're actually thinking about that?

Caz Binstead: 00:11:08

Right down to the kind of the community of private practitioners themselves?

Josephine Hughes: 00:11:13

Yeah, yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:11:13

And I think.

Josephine Hughes: 00:11:14

So all these different themes come together in the book, don't they?

Josephine Hughes: 00:11:17

And, you know, social media is another sort of part of it that you bring in and talk about.

Josephine Hughes: 00:11:21

And I think a really nice focus on the person of the therapists themselves as well, because it's all part of.

Josephine Hughes: 00:11:28

It's all part of that whole, isn't it, that, you know, we're not operating looking after the client in isolation, away from ourselves, away from our business or away from sort of wider society.

Josephine Hughes: 00:11:38

So I'm particularly interested to read the start of the book, your observations about the changing makeup of the profession.

Josephine Hughes: 00:11:44

And I wondered if you could tell me a little bit more about that.

Caz Binstead: 00:11:47

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Caz Binstead: 00:11:49

I mean, a lot of people work in private practice now.

Caz Binstead: 00:11:51

The figure is almost 70% working in some capacity in private practice.

Caz Binstead: 00:11:56

That's a lot of people.

Caz Binstead: 00:11:57

And it's only going to get larger, I think.

Caz Binstead: 00:11:59

I think that vigour is going to increase.

Caz Binstead: 00:12:01

But, yeah, our profession in general changing, you know, so the demographic, for example, people who are training are kind of on the whole, a lot younger than they were at one point.

Caz Binstead: 00:12:14

And, you know, those people quite rightly are coming into this profession, you know, expecting to train and to work as.

Caz Binstead: 00:12:24

Of course you would.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:25

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:12:25

And we really owe it to those people, particularly if it's their first careers or whatever, to be able to say, right, okay, how going to help you in private practice?

Caz Binstead: 00:12:37

It's one of the reasons I felt so strongly, because I felt like not all trainings, but a lot of trainings.

Caz Binstead: 00:12:44

I mean, mainly because trainings are so full already.

Caz Binstead: 00:12:47

But they don't have the space to cover this subject or if they do, they don't have the space to cover it in full.

Caz Binstead: 00:12:53

And yet there really is a lot that needs to be looked at.

Caz Binstead: 00:12:56

Of course, you know, the work of the toolkit enabled, you know, the largest membership body to look at it.

Caz Binstead: 00:13:01

But yeah, those private practitioners need to be supported because the reality is that a lot of people are going to qualify.

Caz Binstead: 00:13:08

And whether people want to go into private practice or not, there is a real issue with a lack of jobs, a lack of paid jobs available, which is very sad for our profession, I think.

Caz Binstead: 00:13:19

But yeah, it is the reality of things.

Josephine Hughes: 00:13:21

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:13:21

And I mean it's sort of sad for the, sad for our community as well.

Josephine Hughes: 00:13:26

I mean, not community, I mean, you know, society.

Josephine Hughes: 00:13:28

There isn't enough funding for therapy, I don't think, because I think we all know what a huge difference it would make if there was more therapy available to people in all sorts of walks of life.

Josephine Hughes: 00:13:38

So I mean, I was sort of thinking, you know, reading what you'd said about the fact that the profession is changing.

Josephine Hughes: 00:13:44

You know, I'm the mum of 20 and 30 somethings.

Josephine Hughes: 00:13:48

The older ones are a little bit more established now, but the one that's sort of in their mid, mid, sort of middle 20s, it's such a struggle.

Josephine Hughes: 00:13:55

It's a different profession but very similar I think, in that, you know, you prepare for a job and then you come out of, you graduate and then there's sort of really nothing there.

Josephine Hughes: 00:14:06

And I was really struck by a comment we had from a young woman in the Good Enough Counsellors Facebook group recently where she said, this is almost breaking me.

Josephine Hughes: 00:14:16

You know, she's 26, she's doing obviously a really big long course.

Josephine Hughes: 00:14:22

It sort of sounds like it's a proper sort of in depth psychotherapy course and is doing her placement and she said having to pay for supervision is just absolutely crippling her.

Josephine Hughes: 00:14:33

That £120amonth is just really difficult.

Josephine Hughes: 00:14:37

It's really difficult to find work where she can work around the requirements of her placement as well.

Josephine Hughes: 00:14:45

And I just think that's, that's, it's such a problematic thing I think for our profession that, you know, this is what's happening, isn't it, to people and I think, I don't know about you, but I mean, my daughter's, you know, attempting to set herself up as a freelancer and I think it's quite a difficult thing to do when you're in your 20s.

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:04

I mean, I found it difficult enough to do in my 50s, let alone.

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:08

I mean, I can't imagine me at that sort of age, in my middle 20s, having the courage to set myself up as a freelancer, as a private practitioner.

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:20

What do you sort of hear?

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:21

Because I know you work with student community quite a lot.

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:24

What sort of things do you hear from them about getting set up and what it's like as a young person?

Caz Binstead: 00:15:31

Yeah, I mean, thanks for sharing that.

Caz Binstead: 00:15:34

And really, Josephine, I think because of the work that you do in your Facebook group, you've really got your ear to the ground and it's people like you that need to be listened to because actually this is the reality.

Caz Binstead: 00:15:47

And I think that's why I felt really strongly.

Caz Binstead: 00:15:49

I felt very strongly about this work because, you know, I've become very well known.

Caz Binstead: 00:15:55

But I feel.

Caz Binstead: 00:15:56

I mean, I do still run a full private practice.

Caz Binstead: 00:15:59

That's what I do day in, day out.

Caz Binstead: 00:16:01

I still do it.

Caz Binstead: 00:16:02

So I don't feel.

Caz Binstead: 00:16:03

I may.

Caz Binstead: 00:16:04

I may be more well known than other private practitioners or whatever, but I don't feel detached from them.

Caz Binstead: 00:16:10

I feel very much like, yeah, this is the reality.

Caz Binstead: 00:16:13

People are really, really struggling.

Caz Binstead: 00:16:16

It's.

Caz Binstead: 00:16:16

It's really sad to hear stories like that sometimes, and I think even more sad if we bring things, other things that are happening in our profession where therapists feel even more devalued.

Caz Binstead: 00:16:29

I'm not going to talk about SCOPE today, but we both know that's what I meant, what I'm talking about.

Caz Binstead: 00:16:34

So I think that groups like yours are really important to give that sense of camaraderie and support and things.

Caz Binstead: 00:16:43

But I do wish that our profession, it's quite a hierarchical profession in itself, and ironically, the people who are out there trying to help people and, you know, doing our work and like during the pandemic, working day in, day out, like a key worker.

Caz Binstead: 00:17:00

We're not key workers.

Caz Binstead: 00:17:01

You know, we're the people that are really holding everything and we deserve that recognition.

Caz Binstead: 00:17:07

And all the people that can't get jobs and find it difficult to set up private practices, they deserve help with that.

Caz Binstead: 00:17:15

They deserve help from the profession.

Caz Binstead: 00:17:18

I've done my bit, but there's only so far I can go with that.

Caz Binstead: 00:17:22

I hope that the book will help people because I guess people, I normally see people struggle in two ways with private practice.

Caz Binstead: 00:17:29

Either they'll be like, really, really excited and be like, I'm going to set my private practice up straight away and I'm going to have so and so amount of clients or people will be really, really scared.

Caz Binstead: 00:17:42

And kind of.

Caz Binstead: 00:17:43

You need a bit of both.

Caz Binstead: 00:17:44

You need in private practice, but you need to also be realistic and realistic about the time that it takes to do the preparation work, to do the setup.

Caz Binstead: 00:17:54

And you need to also bear in mind that you are both a therapist and a business person.

Caz Binstead: 00:18:01

So, again, some people get very excited by the marketing side of things and the growing your practice and that's all they're ever looking for.

Caz Binstead: 00:18:09

Yes, of course you're going to get people through the door, but you need more than that in order to have a kind of sustainable practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:18:16

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:18:16

What sort of things do you mean, Kez?

Caz Binstead: 00:18:18

So, for example, I could have wonderful marketing and I might even nick a few ideas from the therapist down the road, thinking, oh, that sounds good, I'll write that on my website.

Caz Binstead: 00:18:30

And then actually, the client walks through the door and they sit down and we start talking and what's been put on my website or whatever, doesn't actually connect with who I really am as a person.

Caz Binstead: 00:18:45

Now, what this means is that it's going to be less likely that the client will then go on and work.

Josephine Hughes: 00:18:50

With you and use retention, isn't it?

Caz Binstead: 00:18:53

Yeah, exactly.

Caz Binstead: 00:18:54

And we don't talk about retention enough because, again, it's like one of those things where we're not supposed to talk about it because of course we have to be ethical and not be wanting clients to stay.

Caz Binstead: 00:19:05

We want clients to be better.

Caz Binstead: 00:19:06

But the fact of the matter is, people are seeking therapy because they want therapy, and if they come to you for an initial session, it's much better if you've actually been able to be as honest as you can.

Josephine Hughes: 00:19:20

Before we continue, I just want to quickly share something for any of you who might be struggling to express what makes you unique as a therapist.

Josephine Hughes: 00:19:31

If you find it hard to know what to say on your profile or your website that really connects you with the clients that you want to work with.

Josephine Hughes: 00:19:41

I've got a special offer for you in therapy Growth group.

Josephine Hughes: 00:19:45

I'm launching a programme in February that will help you identify exactly how to describe the way that you help people.

Josephine Hughes: 00:19:55

We'll start with a clear step by step, week by week process that culminates in a profile writing week from February 24th.

Josephine Hughes: 00:20:05

During this week, you'll get the chance to do a short exercise on various days to help you build out parts of your profile.

Josephine Hughes: 00:20:14

And you'll get personalised feedback from me on these aspects of your profile.

Josephine Hughes: 00:20:20

And also you'll be supported by other group members.

Josephine Hughes: 00:20:24

This is a chance for you to make sure that what you say will truly resonate with clients and it will reflect who you are as a therapist.

Josephine Hughes: 00:20:34

If that sounds helpful, please come and join me and the other members of Therapy Growth Group to really work on and enhance your profile.

Josephine Hughes: 00:20:44

Just go along to josephinehughes.com Therapy Growth Group offer to read more about it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:20:56

And now back to cas.

Caz Binstead: 00:20:58

Also consider things like whether you're working within your competency level.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:03

Now, by that I mean, not just can you actually work with something.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:08

It might be, can you work with something or do you not quite know enough about it?

Caz Binstead: 00:21:13

Or it might be that you might not want to work with something.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:17

And I think that as private practitioners, you know, there's a lot to think about in terms of who we are as private practitioners.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:26

And in a way, that kind of stuff and being settled in, that kind of stuff needs to come before the marketing as well as the contract.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:37

You know, the contract is my.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:38

I'm so boring.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:39

It's like my favorite.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:40

My favorite thing because I'm one of those, you know, super detailed people.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:44

But it is very, very important in private practice.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:48

And, you know, contracts don't have to remain static throughout your private practice.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:52

It's not like you do one and then you say, oh, that's it.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:55

I'm stuck with that for the next 20 years.

Caz Binstead: 00:21:58

You can, obviously, as new clients come along, if you want to make updates later down the line, of course, but actually being able to really think about your contract and your boundaries and how you run your practice is super important because you're going to come across as much more professional.

Caz Binstead: 00:22:16

Like you know what you're doing and you want to feel like.

Caz Binstead: 00:22:19

Therapists always want to feel like there are clients who want to feel like they're in safe hands.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:23

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:22:23

You know, they may not trust you straight away, they may not feel safe straight away, but there's got to be that kind of potential there.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:30

Yeah, yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:31

I think it's really interesting because I'm not a details person at all, so I think we probably differ on that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:37

I mean, when I started as well, just sort of thinking about it, I didn't have a written contract at that point.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:43

It just didn't.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:43

It wasn't sort of.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:44

Almost the very few people did seem to have written contracts at that point.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:47

I think at some point I started delving a bit more into BACP guidelines and thought, oh, yeah, perhaps I should have a written contract.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:55

And I think it's quite interesting actually, because I think again, the profession has changed.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:59

We have got now I think hardly anybody would consider not having only having a verbal contract.

Josephine Hughes: 00:23:04

Most people would have a written contract and most people would probably get the client to sign it, see it beforehand.

Josephine Hughes: 00:23:12

I remember sending mine out beforehand, and that was actually quite unusual when I first started doing it, you know, it was almost like people didn't do anything until you actually got the client in front of you.

Josephine Hughes: 00:23:21

So it has developed, hasn't it, over time, I think.

Josephine Hughes: 00:23:24

I think we've got maybe more.

Josephine Hughes: 00:23:26

I don't know if that's being more risk averse.

Josephine Hughes: 00:23:28

I don't know anyway.

Caz Binstead: 00:23:30

But, yeah, I remember.

Caz Binstead: 00:23:31

I remember Rory from counselling tutor a few years ago saying to me, it used to just be, you know, get a room and a couple of chairs and you're all good, you know.

Josephine Hughes: 00:23:41

Yeah, that's it.

Caz Binstead: 00:23:42

And I think that was, I guess, indicative again of the demographic change, because a lot of people, you know, I guess because perhaps it was their second or third careers, they were of a certain demographic, you know, they may not have needed to work so much.

Caz Binstead: 00:23:58

Whereas, you know, actually this is one of the reasons why now, and I guess continuing in the future, really looking at the private practice field and, you know, kind of paying attention to all of this stuff is super important.

Caz Binstead: 00:24:12

It's important for clients, it's important for private practitioners, and it's important for the profession.

Josephine Hughes: 00:24:18

Yeah, yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:24:19

Because I think this absolutely.

Josephine Hughes: 00:24:21

Don't get me wrong, you know, absolutely agree with you that to have a clear idea is so helpful because it not only helps the client, but it also helps us relax as well.

Josephine Hughes: 00:24:31

Because we know, you know, what we're doing.

Josephine Hughes: 00:24:33

We've got that sort of safe framework around us that we've thought through some of these things.

Josephine Hughes: 00:24:40

Although I have to say, I think people do really struggle sometimes in setting their policies.

Josephine Hughes: 00:24:45

But then actually, when it comes to it, I'm thinking cancellations here.

Josephine Hughes: 00:24:50

And this is something that you do talk about in the book, because this is where the business side and the client side can really sort of come into it, can't it?

Caz Binstead: 00:24:59

Of course, you know, of course there are ethical things we have to consider in running our private practices.

Caz Binstead: 00:25:05

So there are some things that are kind of almost like, yeah, that is kind of how you have to do it.

Caz Binstead: 00:25:09

But the cancellation policy is not one of them.

Caz Binstead: 00:25:11

You know, you can.

Caz Binstead: 00:25:12

If you set a cancellation policy, that is ridiculous.

Caz Binstead: 00:25:16

I don't know, like two weeks or something, you're probably not going to get clients staying.

Caz Binstead: 00:25:21

So that wouldn't be advisable, I wouldn't think.

Caz Binstead: 00:25:24

But, you know, you you can set it at whatever you want to set it at, but the most important thing is that you communicate it and that you are consistent with it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:25:35

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:25:35

And this is one of the areas which really private practitioners can get in a bit of a sticky situation with.

Josephine Hughes: 00:25:42

Definitely, definitely.

Josephine Hughes: 00:25:43

I honestly care to be the number of times I've taken my calendar cancellation policy to supervision because I've struggled with it so much, and I think it's that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:25:51

That sort of caring side of you that sort of thinks, yeah, they're ill or their child's ill or, you know, what do I do in this situation?

Josephine Hughes: 00:25:59

But then, you know, you're making your policy up on the fly, I think.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:03

And like you say, it's important to have that consistency.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:06

So it's sort of fair across the board, really, which is an ethical sort of approach, really, isn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:12

So.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:12

But honestly, I.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:15

And I would say that actually cancellations is the thing I collate every.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:19

Every week I collate the main things that come up in.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:23

In good enough counsellors.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:25

And there's almost always something on cancellations every week.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:29

I think it's something we really struggle with as a profession because it's very difficult, because it's that intersection between our income, our livelihood and the clients.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:40

I mean, someone said to me this morning that the client accused her of being, you know, unprofessional over a cancellation policy.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:47

But, you know, it's one of those things we have to have in place, really, isn't it?

Caz Binstead: 00:26:52

Yeah, definitely.

Caz Binstead: 00:26:53

And the reality is that for private practitioners, this is one of the areas that complaints can be put in against you for.

Caz Binstead: 00:27:00

So that's why it's so important.

Caz Binstead: 00:27:02

There is stuff in the book if people want to read up on this, and it's also one of the reasons that I say have a written contract as a.

Caz Binstead: 00:27:09

Opposed to a verbal one, because then, you know it, you can kind of come back to it and if there is a bit of a dispute about something, you know, you can.

Caz Binstead: 00:27:17

You can use that contract as a.

Caz Binstead: 00:27:19

As a way of kind of coming together, back together and saying, right, okay, well, what is it?

Caz Binstead: 00:27:24

We've agreed in the beginning, but, yeah, kind of flakiness around boundaries with cancellation policies is really, for what may seem like an easy life for you, you might think, oh, I'll just let it go this one time, okay, easy life for me.

Caz Binstead: 00:27:39

Until it happens another two times, and then you kind of feel a bit annoyed, so you're like, I'm going to enforce it now.

Caz Binstead: 00:27:45

But then there's an inconsistency and you can see why that would really look very strange and unfair to the client.

Caz Binstead: 00:27:52

So it's things like that that can be quite problematic.

Josephine Hughes: 00:27:55

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:27:55

And just to say at this point that, you know, with this sort of scenario, you illustrate it with vignettes, don't you though?

Josephine Hughes: 00:28:02

So.

Josephine Hughes: 00:28:03

And as with any ethical book, you don't actually say to people, this is the answer.

Josephine Hughes: 00:28:10

It can be really frustrating because often that's what you want.

Josephine Hughes: 00:28:13

You want someone to tell you, right, this is the right thing to do and this is the wrong thing to do.

Josephine Hughes: 00:28:17

But in fact, you don't do that in the book, do you?

Josephine Hughes: 00:28:19

It's very ethical in that, you know, here's you, it's your practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:28:23

These are the things to sort of really.

Josephine Hughes: 00:28:26

You really sort of get people to just start thinking, don't you, about what this would be.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:30

Yeah, absolutely.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:31

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:32

I mean, I mean it's full, it's absolutely packed full of vignettes and exercises and.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:38

Definitely.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:38

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:39

Because ethics isn't black and white.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:40

So there may not always be an answer.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:43

Sometimes there is.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:44

Like there's stuff like, you know, stuff in the thing, the chapter which is around policies and procedures other than the contract.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:52

Like I talk about clinical will.

Josephine Hughes: 00:28:53

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:54

And I'm very clear there.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:55

You know, it's kind of non negotiable.

Caz Binstead: 00:28:57

You know, a lot of people don't have them and haven't had them.

Caz Binstead: 00:29:00

But know it really ought to be, if you go, if you're working ethically, it really ought to be something that you have.

Caz Binstead: 00:29:05

So there are times when I'm.

Caz Binstead: 00:29:06

When I'm kind of saying, you know, yes, absolutely, do that or strongly consider this.

Caz Binstead: 00:29:12

But other times it's kind of what's been most important for me in writing this book is almost like a guidance for people to be able to think through these ethical dilemmas, I guess, because I've got quite a creative mind and, and because.

Caz Binstead: 00:29:28

But because I am detailed as well.

Caz Binstead: 00:29:30

It's been a case of kind of giving a vignette and then going through absolutely every little point that may not be absolutely obvious.

Caz Binstead: 00:29:37

So I think, and you see this in.

Caz Binstead: 00:29:39

When people come in with their hypothetical scenarios or whatever in Facebook groups and they're trying to get a blanket answer and it's like, well, it's not going to be a blanket answer.

Caz Binstead: 00:29:50

It's going to be dependent on a lot of things.

Caz Binstead: 00:29:52

But you're more likely to get to an answer if you actually reflect on certain things.

Caz Binstead: 00:30:00

And there are certainly, with some aspects of our work, some very Common reflections that will take place.

Josephine Hughes: 00:30:07

And I think there's a real, real theme that comes through the book and I think this is sort of like, you know, quite a lot of the chapters I was picking up on it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:30:16

And this is about the isolation of the profession.

Josephine Hughes: 00:30:20

And I think that's a really important part of what you talk about, isn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:30:25

Would you like to sort of tell us a bit more about how, you know, working as a private practitioner, you think, impacts the practitioner?

Caz Binstead: 00:30:32

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Caz Binstead: 00:30:35

Well, first of all, the amount of years I was doing this role and, you know, I.

Caz Binstead: 00:30:41

I guess at first I knew people in the area and stuff, and then, you know, and you got your kind of the people that you trained with, and then everyone moves away.

Caz Binstead: 00:30:50

And, you know, it was when I was started Therapist Connect with Peter Blundell, you know, I guess then I began talking to more therapists than I had, like, ever.

Caz Binstead: 00:31:01

And it really came to mind for me just how isolated I was.

Caz Binstead: 00:31:06

And, you know, this is the reality of private practice now.

Caz Binstead: 00:31:09

It's isolation in two ways.

Caz Binstead: 00:31:11

So it's physical isolation because you're working on your own and you don't, you know, you might be seeing, say, six clients in a day and you can't go home and talk about your work because of confidentiality, but you also don't have colleagues to kind of even just go in the kitchen and say, oh, how's your day going today?

Caz Binstead: 00:31:33

This kind of thing, you know, unless you work in a building with other therapists, you'll be very much holding that yourself.

Caz Binstead: 00:31:41

And that really does actually take its toll.

Caz Binstead: 00:31:44

And the other thing is, I guess this was why, you know, again, why the support for private practitioners is very important, and private practitioners getting things like their policies and procedures and contracts and stuff right, is because I refer in the book to this kind of absence of.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:01

I think I talked about in a BACP paper first, actually, so I've referenced myself about this absence of scaffolding.

Josephine Hughes: 00:32:08

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:09

So, you know, and students are really going to feel this.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:11

But therapists in general have been working in organisations or agencies.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:15

You know, there's always someone else.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:16

It's like you've got your.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:18

Okay, so you may have a clinical supervisor, everyone has a clinical supervisor.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:22

But then you've got like a placement manager, maybe, and then there's like a clinical director and then there's like a clinical manager.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:29

And so if an ethical issue comes up, there's lots of people that you can perhaps refer.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:35

Something tricky, refer onto.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:38

But as a private practitioner, you don't have any of that.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:41

And you haven't got anybody else creating those policies and things.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:44

So it's very much you on your own holding all of that as well.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:49

And so coming back to, you know, you're worrying about your cancellation policy.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:53

Have I got it right?

Caz Binstead: 00:32:53

You know, you're doing that in isolation, which can just be really, really hard.

Caz Binstead: 00:32:59

And it can be hard as time goes on.

Caz Binstead: 00:33:01

Like you may just get into a thing and then just think, oh, I might as well take on more clients and fill your days and yet actually lose, you know, who you are as a person, lose that there's other things in life other than therapy and actually applying self care.

Caz Binstead: 00:33:19

And of course we know burnout is much more susceptible to private practitioners.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:24

Yeah, I thought that was a really lovely chapter actually that you wrote.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:29

There's a chapter on supervision and alternative sources of support.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:34

And I found that because the subtitle of the book is Solidarity, Compassion and Justice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:39

And I felt that particular chapter was, was very, very compassionate towards private practitioners and how the sort of pressures and strains that they might be under.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:50

And I can definitely sort of identify with what you're saying because I, when I first started working, I'd rent a room, but I was working on my own in that room and then I worked from home and I, you know, it's that like you say, it's just that lack of the sort of water cooler moments, just a colleague to say, hey, did you watch Celebrity Come Dining whatever with somebody and just have those little chats during the day and you can end up that you're very deep in relationship with the people that you're listening to, but there's no one there for you almost when you're working sort of on your own, day in, day out.

Josephine Hughes: 00:34:25

What changed it for me was actually was working in an office with other therapists and quite often someone being around.

Josephine Hughes: 00:34:33

It was just really nice that you could sit down and have a chat with somebody or just see them in passing.

Josephine Hughes: 00:34:38

It did give me a real extra dimension to my practice at that point.

Josephine Hughes: 00:34:43

So I was very lucky like that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:34:44

But I think that sort of recognition that if people are going to be doing this job for a long time, they need to attend to that isolation, don't they?

Josephine Hughes: 00:34:56

They need to find ways of dealing with it.

Caz Binstead: 00:34:59

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:35:00

I mean, it's great for you that you had that and I would really strongly recommend people find different ways that they can make those connections.

Caz Binstead: 00:35:08

So like for us, you know, we have social media communities and stuff, but you know, you might also need different Kinds of connections.

Caz Binstead: 00:35:16

Because social, social media only provides one source of connection.

Caz Binstead: 00:35:21

So it might be important for you to find other therapists in your area or even if you make friends online, can you kind of make that into like a real life friendship?

Caz Binstead: 00:35:31

nd I would met them online in: 2019

Caz Binstead: 00:35:41

Not, not that I'm saying online friendships aren't proper, but you know what I.

Josephine Hughes: 00:35:44

Mean, it's nice to get someone to see someone in real life.

Caz Binstead: 00:35:48

Yeah, yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:35:48

Like this Thursday.

Caz Binstead: 00:35:50

So I finish my work on Wednesday and on Thursday I'm going out with two other therapists in the area for a Christmas dinner.

Josephine Hughes: 00:35:58

Lovely.

Caz Binstead: 00:35:58

A Christmas party dinner.

Caz Binstead: 00:36:00

Because, you know, that's something that, that is like something that every year when it comes, I'm like, oh, I don't get a work Christmas party.

Caz Binstead: 00:36:08

So I was absolutely determined this year to make sure I did something with some therapists.

Josephine Hughes: 00:36:14

Yeah, yeah, I think so.

Josephine Hughes: 00:36:15

I think it's really important because it's just sort of like you just are on your own otherwise.

Josephine Hughes: 00:36:21

And I think it sort of creeps in really, doesn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:36:26

You don't realize that it's happening, but you are becoming more and more isolated and that can be problematic.

Josephine Hughes: 00:36:32

So what would your advice be to therapist to prevent burnout, do you think?

Caz Binstead: 00:36:36

Oh, well, there's loads.

Caz Binstead: 00:36:37

I mean, there's actually that.

Caz Binstead: 00:36:38

Thank you for saying that chapter was a nice chapter because I kind of.

Caz Binstead: 00:36:42

For me, it felt like it felt good writing it as well.

Caz Binstead: 00:36:47

Yeah, I put a list in there actually, which is a lot.

Caz Binstead: 00:36:52

It's a long list and it was really interesting for me to think about that question, kind of what prevents burnout?

Caz Binstead: 00:36:59

And also what do you do when you feel that it's coming on?

Caz Binstead: 00:37:02

Because often we talk about those two points before burnout and then once burnout's hit, but we don't talk about the kind of.

Caz Binstead: 00:37:09

The transition points.

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:11

And I think that was a really interesting point that you made there because again, it's using a vignette, isn't it?

Caz Binstead: 00:37:16

It?

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:16

And it's somebody who's got this successful private practice and beginning to feel those symptoms of burnout.

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:23

But to a admit that she's maybe getting burnout when everybody perceives her to have a successful private practice is difficult.

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:30

So that was one aspect of it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:32

And then the other aspect of it as well was obviously the income side of it that, you know, what can you do?

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:38

And that's sort of something that you actually addressed in that list of points as to what to do about it, wasn't it?

Caz Binstead: 00:37:44

Yes.

Caz Binstead: 00:37:44

Yeah, absolutely.

Caz Binstead: 00:37:46

And definitely, I mean, thank you for pointing those two things out that came up in the vignette, because they are real, real things for private practitioners.

Caz Binstead: 00:37:55

And even people feel a sense of shame sometimes admitting to their supervisors even that, you know, and that's why it's really good for supervisors to kind of be looking for the signs, you know, so you don't have to use the word burnout if you're a supervisor, but you might just say, you know, how are you doing?

Caz Binstead: 00:38:14

How balanced is your life?

Caz Binstead: 00:38:16

You know, so, yeah, definitely check that list out.

Caz Binstead: 00:38:20

Because, you know, basically, if you burn out, you know, it is a real thing.

Caz Binstead: 00:38:24

Private practitioners do burn out, but if you burn out, you then can't work.

Josephine Hughes: 00:38:30

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:38:31

So it's, you know, and you may not.

Caz Binstead: 00:38:33

I mean, I.

Caz Binstead: 00:38:33

I was speaking to a therapist more recently who burnt out, and she couldn't work for over three years.

Josephine Hughes: 00:38:38

Oh, really?

Josephine Hughes: 00:38:39

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:38:40

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:38:40

So, you know, it may not be that long, but it will be a period that you won't be able to work.

Caz Binstead: 00:38:46

And so actually, it's much better to kind of.

Caz Binstead: 00:38:49

Even though it's difficult to just stay on track of that and see where you're at with that as you go along in your career.

Josephine Hughes: 00:38:55

And I think here that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:38:56

I mean, you do mention it briefly sort of elsewhere in the book about the importance of, again, coming back to fees and that because, I mean, there's sort of two ways that you can make.

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:05

Make your private practice work.

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:06

You know, you can charge more or you can see more clients.

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:09

And I think often because of our reluctance to charge higher fees is that we might choose to see lots of clients.

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:16

I know for me, it was a real breakthrough moment when I actually put my prices up.

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:20

But the thing that happened as a result of actually putting my prices up was I thought, oh, blimey, you know, I can see fewer people and still have the same amount of money.

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:28

And that actually was really helpful at that point in my life.

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:31

It had a lot going on, you know, so.

Caz Binstead: 00:39:33

Yeah, and it makes sense because if you go along and you work over 10 years as a private practice practitioner, you do get.

Caz Binstead: 00:39:41

I mean, I feel.

Caz Binstead: 00:39:42

I don't know about you, Joseph.

Caz Binstead: 00:39:43

I don't know if you still do see clients, actually, but I.

Caz Binstead: 00:39:46

I feel more tired than I did when I first started, just because I'm older and I've been doing it for a long time.

Caz Binstead: 00:39:53

So actually it just makes sense that as you go along, you become more experienced, and with more experience, it doesn't make you a better therapist necessarily, but you do have more experience, so you are entitled to put your fees up.

Caz Binstead: 00:40:06

Like you say, a lot of clients actually don't have an issue with that.

Caz Binstead: 00:40:09

As long as you've done it.

Caz Binstead: 00:40:11

Yeah, we worry about it more than they might.

Caz Binstead: 00:40:13

As long as you've done it in a kind of a respectful way, you've thought about how to communicate it, how much notice you're giving, you know, it's not some ridiculous amount that you're putting it up.

Caz Binstead: 00:40:25

And of course, if you put fees up more regularly, then that will be much more palatable as well.

Caz Binstead: 00:40:30

And like you say, then what, what that means is that when you do get to a point where you're like, oh, feel a bit more tired these days, you can then see less clients, but you can carry on working.

Caz Binstead: 00:40:40

So it really does make sense.

Josephine Hughes: 00:40:43

Yeah, I think so.

Josephine Hughes: 00:40:43

I think so.

Josephine Hughes: 00:40:44

I think it's.

Josephine Hughes: 00:40:45

I mean, for a while, to be honest, I did get stuck as well because I put them up for new people, but over time the people who had kept on the same rate, they fell such a long way behind that that was actually became problematic as to.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:01

So I think as well, although it's hard to put them up for existing clients, my experience was that probably I should have done that as well at the same time.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:10

So.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:11

Yeah, and I know, you know, people, people vary on whether or not they want to do that, but I think for me, especially for the longer term clients.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:16

So I had someone 50 and someone 35 and that's a big, that was a big gap at that point, you know.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:22

So, yeah, just something else to think about really.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:25

So coming back to, you know, sort of burnout and support for people.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:29

You talk in the book about social media as well, don't you?

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:32

There's a whole sort of section on marketing and ethical marketing which you probably won't have time to talk about, but you do actually talk about the impact of social media on therapists in terms of their connection as well, which I thought was quite an interesting section on the way that sometimes it might be less helpful than we may imagine.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:49

I don't know if you want to say any more about that.

Caz Binstead: 00:41:51

Yes, it was so nice to include this chapter on social media because, you know, it's not really, it's not really.

Caz Binstead: 00:41:58

There's not a lot written on therapists use of social media.

Caz Binstead: 00:42:02

And you know, obviously because I am a community lead on social media, it felt really important to have it there.

Caz Binstead: 00:42:08

And it was great to do this.

Caz Binstead: 00:42:10

We kind of involved private practitioners and we had a roundtable, which was great in terms of giving.

Caz Binstead: 00:42:16

Hearing different perspectives as to why people use social media, which was very different between practitioners and what they were expecting out of it, and also how we thought about the boundaries around that.

Caz Binstead: 00:42:29

But, yeah, there's some interesting things in there, around, like you were saying there, how people are on social media.

Caz Binstead: 00:42:38

So on the surface, we might say a blanket statement, which is social media and Facebook groups like yours and communities like mine are a good thing because they connect people together.

Caz Binstead: 00:42:49

But then, of course, there's the other.

Josephine Hughes: 00:42:51

Side of it, the shadow side to it, isn't there?

Caz Binstead: 00:42:53

Shadow side to it?

Caz Binstead: 00:42:54

Yeah, absolutely.

Caz Binstead: 00:42:56

And this was very interesting for me, really, throughout the book, the kind of, you know, how we are with other private practitioners and how we.

Caz Binstead: 00:43:03

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:43:04

What we bring in ourselves as people and, you know, how we can be.

Caz Binstead: 00:43:09

I don't know, like, it's not like we're going to be friends with everybody, because we're not.

Caz Binstead: 00:43:13

But, you know, what could.

Caz Binstead: 00:43:15

Could actually make people feel like, oh, actually, I feel less connected now, or I feel less inclined to be in, like, a Facebook group or something like that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:43:25

I thought that was a really interesting insight because you said at one point, you know, people reach out for support, and I've seen this happen, and then they get castigated.

Josephine Hughes: 00:43:34

And that is the antithesis, really, of support, isn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:43:37

And I think often, you know, we can get these.

Josephine Hughes: 00:43:40

It's.

Josephine Hughes: 00:43:40

It's.

Josephine Hughes: 00:43:41

It's been like process groups, really.

Josephine Hughes: 00:43:43

You know, sometimes in process groups, there's a whole load of unspoken rules, and it's all right as long as you know what those unspoken rules are, but if you don't, then you're in trouble.

Josephine Hughes: 00:43:50

And I think it can be like that on social media in that there's a lot of sort of ways you're supposed to be and.

Josephine Hughes: 00:43:55

And.

Josephine Hughes: 00:43:56

And people can not realize that, and then they can get into trouble.

Caz Binstead: 00:44:03

Yeah, yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:44:04

As someone who does put my foot in it occasionally, I do know, you know, and I think that's quite hard.

Josephine Hughes: 00:44:13

And especially if you're just starting out, I think that can be actually a really difficult thing to navigate.

Caz Binstead: 00:44:16

And it's like, for me, it's like.

Caz Binstead: 00:44:18

I mean, this is talked about as well in that chapter, which is about the role of social media and therapists versus, like, supervision.

Caz Binstead: 00:44:29

And for me, it's, you know, actually being able to be clear about what is useful for people to take to the supervision space.

Caz Binstead: 00:44:36

And then what, like these kinds of questions, what could be really useful if, you know, it's just like, oh, actually, here's a practical question, and I just don't know how to answer it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:44:46

It's going to say, it's a really, I think this people knowing what they should take or what they can take to supervision as opposed to what they can put on social media.

Josephine Hughes: 00:44:55

And I know, sort of like, I've worked with my previous supervisor quite a lot on this, you know, running the group and her sort of view, she's very sort of not really into social media, but very much sort of like, well, why would someone put that in a group?

Josephine Hughes: 00:45:08

Why isn't it going to supervision?

Josephine Hughes: 00:45:09

And I think sometimes, if I'm really honest, what can happen is that people, you know, something will happen in their practice and they're in that sort of like, almost, oh, my goodness, I don't know what to do about it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:45:20

And they'll come on social media and they'll post a question, and when you actually say to them, actually, you know, I think this might be something to discuss in supervision, quite often they'll say, yeah, I was just feeling a bit shocked.

Josephine Hughes: 00:45:32

And so I posted.

Josephine Hughes: 00:45:34

Which I think is why, you know, one of the advantages of Facebook groups, if you've got your post approval turned on, you have got that moderation facility.

Josephine Hughes: 00:45:42

So we can.

Josephine Hughes: 00:45:43

We can pick it up in moderation, but it can also be quite difficult sometimes.

Josephine Hughes: 00:45:48

I find this as a moderator.

Josephine Hughes: 00:45:49

So you want to help people and you sort of see something come up and you're thinking, oh, is this saying too much?

Josephine Hughes: 00:45:57

Is this, you know, like you were saying about hypothetical situations?

Josephine Hughes: 00:46:00

Is it really hypothetical?

Josephine Hughes: 00:46:02

Or is this.

Josephine Hughes: 00:46:02

Yeah, it's, it's.

Josephine Hughes: 00:46:03

It's so difficult because I really get it.

Caz Binstead: 00:46:05

I mean, I feel as a.

Caz Binstead: 00:46:07

As a therapist, a working therapist, I get it.

Caz Binstead: 00:46:10

I get it.

Caz Binstead: 00:46:10

When you've done.

Caz Binstead: 00:46:11

You've had a client and you.

Caz Binstead: 00:46:13

You're full of everything, and all you want to do is blurt it out or do something with it or get it out of you or whatever.

Caz Binstead: 00:46:23

Because it may be something really heavy from the client, or it may be that something's happened between you and the client and you're worried.

Caz Binstead: 00:46:30

But I guess for me, that's an ethical thing.

Caz Binstead: 00:46:34

That is one of our professional responsibilities, confidentiality.

Caz Binstead: 00:46:39

And so we have to find ways to be able to, I don't know, work with our supervisor.

Caz Binstead: 00:46:44

I mean, for example, both my supervisors, they offer emergency support if needed, so they may not be able to speak to me straight Away, but I can send them a text and say, oh, something really.

Caz Binstead: 00:46:56

I mean, I don't really need that too much these days, but when I first started in those first few years, that was just great to have that facility, you know.

Caz Binstead: 00:47:07

But I think that actually if you can really think about the different support systems that you have and how you're going to use them, then that can help you all round.

Caz Binstead: 00:47:15

Because actually, if you're.

Caz Binstead: 00:47:16

If you're dealing with your stress in general and having ways so that you're not feeling so isolated, which might be more general, chit chat in groups like yours or.

Caz Binstead: 00:47:26

Or asking about the practical things, then you may be less.

Caz Binstead: 00:47:29

You.

Caz Binstead: 00:47:29

You may be.

Caz Binstead: 00:47:30

I don't know, there may be more space to breathe, if you like, a.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:33

Bit more regulated, really, because you've got that connection.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:36

Because connection helps us regulate, doesn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:38

So.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:39

So, yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:40

Oh, it's so fascinating.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:44

I've got loads more I could talk to you about, but I'm sort of aware of the time ticking by, so I think we better finish there.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:50

But it's been so interesting to hear your thoughts and congratulations on the book, you know, I've really enjoyed reading it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:57

It's got lots there, I think.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:59

I think there's a sort of lot I learned just sort of generally, you know, sort of.

Josephine Hughes: 00:48:03

For me, I think a bird's eye view of sort of professional issues and what it's like for people found it quite a refreshing read, actually, to sort of, you know, from that point of view and thinking about how the profession is changing and the needs of younger members of the profession as well, and, you know, almost, you know, what we need to do to try and address the gaps.

Josephine Hughes: 00:48:25

I don't know what the answer is, but, you know, the more we talk about things, the more likely we are to come up with some sort of solution, aren't we?

Caz Binstead: 00:48:31

Absolutely, yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:48:33

It is talking about it and it is, you know, allowing people's.

Caz Binstead: 00:48:36

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:48:36

Lived experience to be heard as well.

Caz Binstead: 00:48:39

Yeah.

Caz Binstead: 00:48:40

Thank you for having me on.

Caz Binstead: 00:48:41

It's been such a pleasure.

Josephine Hughes: 00:48:42

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:48:42

And I was going to say, I imagine probably, hopefully, you know, just the fact that you're saying that you've been full since you've started and have always run a full private practice will actually encourage people who are listening as well.

Josephine Hughes: 00:48:53

Because I think often, you know, I mean, I had someone recently in the group who said, is it possible to make living from private practice?

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:00

So it's always really good to hear from people who are making a living who have made it work.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:03

So thank you for that as well.

Caz Binstead: 00:49:07

It definitely is possible listeners.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:10

Well, thanks so much for coming on Caz.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:12

That's really great.

Caz Binstead: 00:49:14

Thank you Josephine.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:16

Thanks for listening.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:17

Do come and join my Facebook community.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:20

Good enough.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:21

Counsellors and for more information about how I can help you develop your private practice, please Visit my website JosephineHughes.com if you found this episode helpful, I'd love it if you could share it with a fellow therapist or leave a review on your podcast app.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:39

And in closing, I'd love to remind you that every single step you make gets you closer to your dream.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:48

I really believe you can do.