We live on a planet that is constantly in motion. The things around the planet are constantly in motion. And the things on the planet are constantly in motion. So how does one keep track of where we are and what time it is? Well, you have standards for that. And one such standard for time is UTC. Is UTC a standard or a timezone, as many people might think? How does it work? Why do we need it?

In this week's talk, Amit and Rinat talk about UTC, a standard for time, why it's needed, how it helps and a lot more!

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Tech Talk, a podcast where Amit and I talk about various technology related topics. Today, we're going to talk about a topic called UTC. A lot of you will know about UTC its do with time zones, but UTC doesn't necessarily refer to time zones, it refers to a standard. As Amit just briefed me right now. I find it quite interesting, although I don't know a lot about it. I know some, hopefully, I'll be able to share those with you guys and help you guys. But a lot of… Amit came up with the topic. And it's quite an interesting topic. And the first thing I was curious about is UTC standing for Coordinated Universal Time. But the abbreviation of it, the letters are a little bit jumbled together. So there must be a story there. And I'm interested to know, I'm interested to know the story behind it. So yeah, Amit, start us off with UTC. What is that? And potentially the story of why the letters are UTC?

Yeah. So thanks. Thanks a lot, Rinat. And, again, I mean, UTC. The reason I recommended was because as a software engineers, we use a lot of timestamps, and most of the timestamps in, in our code in anything we do is always mentioned in UTC. Because software is not used just in one country or one location. It's used across different locations. And every location has a different time. So how do you have different time, but define it in a way that it works across multiple geographies, and that's where the star standard comes UTC. So you don't define the time as BST, British Summer Time, or GMT, Greenwich Mean Time or IST, Indian Standard Time, or Bangladesh Standard Time, etc. So these are all the time at different time zones and each time zone has a different time. But they are all with respect to UTC. So we could be UTC so currently UK is at UTC plus one. So because we are one hour ahead, because it's summertime in the winter, because of the daylight savings, we will be on UTC and India and many other countries they will be UTC plus five plus six plus four, or UTC minus six minus seven minus eight. So when we write code or anything, say navigation of aircrafts or GPS satellites, anything and we have to coordinate where they are in what time we cannot write okay, this is the time based on say BSD okay, it is BSD. But what does it mean? If it was if it was flying over, say Nepal? So how do we calculate the time? So rather than doing all this calculation, it's better to have a standard and then represent the time zones in that standard. That's where UTC comes in. UTC stands for Coordinated Universal Time. So it has universal time and it is coordinated, coordinated between what? and that's the story behind. I mean, I'll explain it. But the abbreviation so that's very interesting, Coordinated Universal Time stands for CUT. But in France, it said, temps universel coordonné. There temps universel coordonné, so it's TUC. Okay? Now, of course, if you translate this into multiple languages, you will have multiple abbreviations. So how do you create an abbreviation that is not favouring one country or one nation or one language? So that's why they came up with the concept of UTC because UTC itself will not It's not present as an abbreviation in any language. So it doesn't, it doesn't favour any particular language. So that's one good thing. Plus it has universal time in it. And Universal Time is one of the standards which UTC follows. So it makes sense to name it UTC. Instead of CUT or TUC or anything else or CTU, etc. So UTC is that now when I say coordinated, coordinated between what? I'll just quickly go through it, coordinated between atomic clocks and the solar time so there are high precision atomic clocks and atomic clock means they measure the frequency of a particular of a particular radiation emitted by certain elements. And they measure like in one second, or how many frequencies translate to one second, and that is defined as one standard. And then you have the solar time. So how much time does it take for the Earth to rotate from one node to another node with zero degree which is GMT line at the prime meridian in UK base picking that as a reference, so how much time does it take for Earth to rotate from one node to another and looking at the stars, okay? So it is not to do with any atomic clock it just to look up in the sky and see how much time it takes for Earth to rotate once Noon to Noon, okay at any given point in time or at any given place in time, and based on that and the atomic clocks, then we decide the UTC time and that UTC time is used across all the servers in the world. It's used across by all the timestamps, whatever system is working on. It's used by aircrafts it used by GPS systems it used by any anything that needs high precision time works with UTC.

Right Okay, that's actually quite interesting to know about. I'm actually I mean, yeah, I've been confused with different time zones and as you said, as software engineers or people in IT, you are very likely that you will have teams all over the world because you know, IT work doesn't necessarily require you to be present in you know, physically present in a particular place. You can just log in or whatever there is internet So, usually the teams all over the world, you know, in different time zones, and you have to coordinate between, between all the teams and the meetings. Obviously, those are less to do with actual software development or things like that. But you know, you have to set kind of struggled with the calculation of time zones all the time anyway. You know, having a standard really makes it easy. And as you said, I mean, when you were talking about standard in terms of, you know, a standard time or I was thinking standards are really a reference point. Exactly. When whenever we have a metric standard, and an ammeter is the reference length, which is everything else is measured against. The same way I think UTC is the reference point, which is the standard which is same for everyone. And our traditional map that we use where Greenwich, Greenwich in London is the actual midpoint of the earth.

No. No it's not the actual midpoint of earth. No, no, no,

no, no, absolutely not. That's what I'm saying like, traditionally, like this is this is how we solve.

So there was a conference and they all decided, okay, where should the zero degree be? I think we should talk about long longitude and latitude first, absolutely. In zero degree.

Yeah, but no, I was just basically pointing out that is, you know, at the end of the day UTC standard is basically a reference point from which the rest of the time zones are measured. For example, you know, India or Nepal or Dubai, you know, plus, as you go east, you know, you plus hours or half of hours, etc. And as you go west, you sort of subtract them from the reference point, but, yeah, the reference point is, is there to help us all to sort of, to conform to that. That standard so we can all sort of agree on sort of, how do I put it and agree on a time, which is yes, you know, acceptable by all I remember reading an article or probably a YouTube video about Australia having very weird time zones in different states, but that's probably another conversation. But yeah, I mean, it could get very complicated with different time zones in the same country or in the same state. For example, but having the reference point makes it a little bit easier for everyone. And, yeah, the reference point, in this case is UTC or the standard, sort of the times and but one thing that confuses me, Amit, that, you know, when you're talking about what UTC is, you know, the zero which is not plus any hour or minus any hours, but that's really Greenwich Mean Time, isn't it? I mean, Greenwich Mean Time.

So Greenwich Mean Time used to British Standard. Now it has become a time zone.

Right. Okay. So but, you know, whenever we're talking about UTC, as, as, you know what time is in UTC? It's, you know, it's, it's always the same time when….

So it is the same time GMT in UTC when it's winter in UK. Yes. But in summer, we have the British Standard Time, which is BST.

Yeah, Yeah. In summer, all over England or Britain. We have one hour ahead, that's also fine. But the GMT timezone is always existing. GMT is just the last one.

So GMT used to be the standard but now it's not a standard it is now a timezone. So actually, we need to understand the different time zones as well. Okay, and for that we need to understand latitude and longitude. So earth is a sphere, okay. And if you draw a line horizontally across the sphere, and vertically across the sphere, that's what gives you the latitude and the longitude, all the horizontal lines across the sphere. Going right from the middle as well, is called a latitude. The biggest latitude or the longitude, longest latitude is at the equator, because it's at the furthest circumference. of the sphere. The longitude line goes from the North Pole and the South Pole. And these are vertical across the planet or earth. These vertical lines go across the across the planet. Now, for the horizontal line, there is a reference. The most middle part is the long longest which is at the equator. Anything above or below will be shorter. So everything is measured with respect to equator. So we have some degree north some degree south. So that's so when you give coordinates. So geographical coordinates always has two points, one for north or south and one for the East and West. North or South means distance from the equator. So are you zero or 10 degree north of equator or 10 degrees South of equator and east or west is from the GMT line. Now, for a horizontal line, we have the reference which is the equator, but for the vertical line, all the lines are same. So how do we define it as a reference or what line should be defined as a reference? Because all the lines are going through and there is no one place where it is. I mean, you cannot say that okay, it is the longest circumference is at the equator because it's going vertically. Okay?

Yeah, so it has gone that's actually quite interesting.

So now, people in olden days when they were navigating on sea, they always had to carry a clock and how would they carry a clock? They would measure Okay, I am leaving at noon tonight or today from England from the shore of England. And I note down that okay. It is this time. So I now keep calculating. Okay, tomorrow What time does noon come? Because I've travelled say east or west and based on that I can tell how far away I've moved from England. But if this was not a very accurate science, and they needed a way to figure out how to actually measure time as you move east or west, north and south is fine. If you go up north or up south, the amount of sunlight is same. But if you go to East or West, the amount of sunlight changes because earth also rotates. So because of the Earth's rotation, the light from east to west changes. But the light on the same latitude. Sorry, the the light. If you take any vertical line on that particular line, the light is always the same. If you if you take the latitude as you go up and down on the same vertical line, so say you take one longitude at zero degree, which is at the GMT and then you go up 10 degree north or 10 degree south, the amount of light is the same. It means that the time on that particular vertical line is the same. That's what longitude is representing. You go up or down on the same line the time is same, because the amount

so when you say amount of sunlight you mean like the time amount of time the sunlight is present. But the duration of the daytime.

It's a variation of the daytime or the brightness of the sun. So it's that but the time is the same. so not okay, so let's go back so horizontal and vertical lines. Horizontal is latitude. Vertical is longitude. We needed to have a reference horizontal, we had equator, vertical, we didn't have anything. So there was a conference and they arbitrarily decided as with any standards, everything has to be English or British. So it became GMT, Greenwich Mean Time, so there is a place in Greenwich, if people who visit London they can go to the Greenwich Park, there is an observatory there and near that observatory there is actually the GMT line, the Greenwich Mean Time Line. So that line defines okay if you go east time increases, if you go west time reduces. And for every longitude, you have I think plus four plus five minutes. And that's how you decide like, Okay, is it half an hour? Half an hour? Or is it one hour? East of the GMT line, or is it half an hour? Less or one hour less west of GMT line. So that's what the GMT line represents. If you go East, the time increases. If you go West, the time decreases. Now, time is a very crazy thing. We always measure time against something and that something is also arbitrary. So time is actually not something that's fundamental to the universe. So we think time is fundamental like mass or gravity, or electromagnetism. But it's not. Time is just a series of events. And we have defined it in that way. For atom, it doesn't matter. I mean, if you look at the fundamental equations, it doesn't matter how you play those how the reaction occurs or how the physical events occur. Because there is no time in it, it can happen the same backward or forward. But because of entropy, because there is randomness every time a physical reaction happens. That's when you that's where you need time and for us because we grow old, we have to define time and time always moves forward moves ahead. We cannot go back in time and change things. I cannot go back in my past and like clear an exam and become very rich. It's what it is. Anyhow, so you have the vertical standard that the GMT and the equator with this. Now, whenever you move towards the east of GMT line, not east as in East, if you're outside, east or west doesn't mean anything. It's just a sphere. So you can go anywhere, and you can go east could be any direction. It's just something that we have defined for our own benefit because we are on this planet. So if you go east of the GMT line the time increases, but if you keep going east, east, east, east, east, east east, you will come back to the same line. Because Earth is a sphere so you come back and you finish us around and you come back and you finish us one circle and once you finish your time resets so there is something called as an international dateline. If you go forward you gain a day if you go backward, you lose a day. So that's where they have defined Okay. We will go minus up to the international dateline and we will go plus up to the International Dateline. So there is GMT line and there is International Dateline. So you will go plus plus plus four minutes plus four minutes plus four minutes. Or plus five minutes till the international dateline. The moment you cross that line, it stops. No more plus. And if you go minus say you go minus five minutes minus five minutes minus five minutes. The moment you reach international dateline, it will no longer be minus. So this is all that what is needed to actually define the time on Earth

Yeah, and interestingly, because it's like equally divided, the deadline is exactly opposite. I think of GMT line right? so that's why you would

if it's somewhere in the Pacific Ocean. Yes. it's somewhere in the Pacific Ocean.

Yeah. Say it's between Alaska and Russia or something. Yeah, yeah. And so basically, you know, whichever way you're going to go plus five minutes plus, plus plus and you would reach until 12 plus 12, or minus 12. You wouldn't go more than that. Because then you would reach the next day, essentially, on the previous day. Yes. So yeah, that's very interesting. I mean, within five minutes of travel, you could literally gain a day. Or lose a day. I find it very interesting. But it's, again, as to emphasise, as you said, it's an arbitrary point, we've decided, you know, Greenwich in London is the zero degree. And then because of that, the right exact opposite is going to be where the dateline would have to be.

So yes, you're right. We needed we needed to define something, but its own arbitrary and it is for our own benefit. Now, I mean, we have defined the longitude we have defined the latitude we have defined coordinates. So we can we can see whether we can go up or down and east or west, and based on that we can, so based on that you can you can locate someone and using those same principles. We can also identify the time now each country has a time zone. So if you are in UK, you are part of a time zone. So it means that anywhere in UK, it will be the same time. If you go east, or west, on the your own in United Kingdom you are on the same time zone so the time doesn't change for you. But if you go from UK to France, then the timezone changes.

Yeah, this is this is also again to make our daily lives easier because if you are really granular and if you're really Far, then you been going a few miles would change, you know, essentially the time by five minutes or not. But in real life in daily life, as you're moving about doing business going from one place to another, it would be quite difficult to keep track of every five minutes you know, every few miles you travel and then time is changing. So that's why you know, it was again arbitrarily created time zones. So okay, let's finish this but I have a question about the coordinates we just talked about.

So when we talk about timezone what it actually means, suppose you wake up from your bed at seven in the morning in UK. What do you think should be the time or where should you think the sun should be in say, Japan? Should it be midday? Should it be 7am in the morning? Or should it be 11am in the morning? Or should it be some 7pm in the night? They mean, you Japan is quite far from UK, right? And Earth is rotating constantly. So it means the amount of sunlight that you get at 7am in the morning in UK is not the same as the amount of sunlight that you would get in Japan. So it means that they need to be on a different timezone to adjust. So 7am in UK might be 7pm plus 12 In Japan, because they are because it's a dark there now because sunset for them. They are ahead of us in the in terms of rotation because you go plus plus. That's why you have time zones. So as you move across the line to the east, your timezone changes. So it means if it is 7am in UK it could be 8am in France, it could be 9am in so it could be it could it could be 7/8/9 am in Serbia, it could be 10am in Turkey, 11am in Pakistan, 12am in 12pm in Bangladesh, and then so forth, till you reach Japan it's the same time for you, but with different amount of sunlight. Because it is different amount of sunlight. The day is just a bit different. So if you want to have the same 24 hours, you need to shift the time so that everyone gets their 7am everyone gets their 7pm and everyone sleeps and everyone works when it's bright and sunny and everyone sleeps when it's dark and the sun is set. So that's why you have time zones and time zones to define that the time in that particular zone is same, you go plus or minus in that particular region. It doesn't matter. The time is saved in that timezone. So, India has a very weird thing India is huge. So when your country is huge, you normally tend to have different time zones, but India has only one timezone. So east to west, so when it is 6am in the East it is 6am in the West, but because the West is so far, the sun has actually not risen, so it's still dark. But in the east, the sun has risen and it's bright and sunny. But here in the West, same Gujarat, it's dark, but they're in Arunachal. It's bright and sunny. And that's a weird thing. Because here, one place where it's bright and sunny, people are happy to wake up, but where it's dark, people are not happy. They still want to sleep a bit more. And that's what timezone so that's why time zones are so important. And then we have this daylight savings time between in UK and many other countries. So basically what happens is in summers as you as it go up the equator, the days get longer, and the days get longer up to June in northern hemisphere and the days get longer up to December in southern hemisphere and after June the day is not getting shorted till December. And in the southern hemisphere, the days start getting shorter till June. So that's the cycle that follows now because the days are getting shorter and longer, they had to adjust the time so people gain an hour when it's winter and they lose an hour when it's summer. And because of that loss and gain. People have to adjust their clocks and that adjusting is actually quite a hassle. Sometimes people forget to adjust their clocks. If it's a digital device, it gets updated automatically. But if it's a if it's a manual device, you have to update it physically. And that sometimes causes issues. So yeah, so in UK you have you gain an hour and you lose an hour, depending upon whether it's winter or summer. And that is only because people so that you give people additional daylight and that's what the intention was, but because you're changing the clocks between summer and winter, sometimes it confuses people and sometimes people forget that causes a lot of issues because if you don't update your clock automatically, then it can look incorrect time

Exactly. I mean, to be honest, there are so many funny stories about that. But one of the I remember this used to be a much bigger issues and a lot of people would used to have this as mistake back in the days in 2007/ 2010, or even earlier, when there were more analogue clocks rather than digital ones nowadays obviously with the advent of technology, most of it is most of our phones and computer for clocks and some other like digital desk clocks as well are connected to UTC. And they update the time based on the dates from the internet. So that's actually pretty cool, but I remember you know us to, in some of those situations used to come to the office or come to school an hour later. And I remember some, some of us are not gonna say if it's me or not but knowing that people are it's okay to make that mistake. You could intentionally make that mistake and be an hour late to your university class and everything.

one day, for one day in the year

yeah, so that's, that was, that was really funny situations that would happen, but

Yeah, it's sometimes I was, I remember when I came from India, because in India you don't have a concept of daylight savings. So when I first came to the UK and I had the we had the daylight savings, I was just watching a film and it was two o'clock and then I saw almost an hour of video and then it was still two o'clock. What happened? Did I lose time gain time what happened? And that was the first time I experienced daylight savings. Like it was crazy. Like, it seems like I gained one hour and it was actually winter when I first came to the UK. It didn't make sense and this was my experience and totally bizarre and I it still is bizarre for me because I have to some of the wall clocks are still analogue so I have to manually change it all the smartphones, laptops, they get automatically changed. Even my smartwatch the moment it because it's connected via Bluetooth, it automatically gets updated. But anything else I have to change it manually at sometimes you forget that okay, the clocks are changing and if it is plus one or minus one, and it causes a lot of hassle. So people have been thinking about having saved multiple time zones in Europe and getting rid of the daylight savings. U.S. it seems has almost 10 different time zones because it's a huge country. So it has to manage times across so many different parts that they have a lot of time zones and each time zone sometimes have daylight saving. So you have to so imagine all the time zones are there and they manage time for that particular region. Now, they all go plus or minus depending upon whether it's summer or winter and you have to manage all that with the timezone. Now if someone, a programmer or say aircraft pilot or a satellite engineer, they have to manage the time. How many times do you think they have to change all this? So someone has to track all that. And it has to be tracked against a standard. So that's it all comes down to UTC. It is so that all these issues can be solved. So we represent time with always UTC. So if it changes daylight savings, it is UTC plus one or UTC, and or it is UTC plus toward UTC plus 2.5. It's always UTC it's the standard and you represent that timezone in that standard? That's what it is

exactly. I mean, there could be so many I mean as you said, there are so many time zones and then the temporary time zones like with British summertime, etc. And some of those timezone I was I was talking about it earlier, like for example in Australia, like obviously you have different time zones to relate to the sun, you know where it's in the time of the day. But you know as you go East and East and East you obviously from GMT, you reach Australia and you reach the first timezone. But then within Australia there are so many time zones. Some of those time zones are defined in an area, which is actually you know, plus but geographically located west of the of the of the place because the way it's divided the, the land area that's defined for that time zone, part of it falls farther west of the one that is above the land area that is above the first land area. Probably confusing the audience by being vague, but yeah, I mean, look it up. Google it. It's quite interesting Australian time.

You can imagine. I can think about it like you have, say you have a zigzag line so it starts from the north. And then it goes west, and then it goes down south and then it goes east because of all that and if there is something north of it, it's at the it's crisscrossing, and then the time zones are that's why a bit bizarre.

Yeah. But yeah, as you said like there are so many of these, it's very difficult to keep track and with technology and IT now everything is global, you know, you send an email, you know, now, as a recipient You Need to Know You know, you want to have those sort of emails or any communications in your timezone where you are to do that. That's what you're experiencing in real life. But the person who sent it to you is probably in a different timezone altogether and in a very complicated time for example, if I text someone in America right now, they well they also have the summertime, but say for example, if I take someone in Turkey right now, I don't know if they have summertime but you know I'm in British summertime. Turkey is in its you know, standard turkey time. I don't know what the three letter abbreviation is for that. But yeah, so now you know WhatsApp has to then do the calculation that I've sent it but I haven't sent it from GMT time so I've sent it from BST and then add just based on that. And if the recipient was getting the time, when from the sender's destination, they will be quite confused because, you know, they would have to then sort of recalculate in their head which is which is not the ideal thing to do. And for all of these things happen in IT or in technology or in digital world automatically, which is tailored for you as a user based on where you are and that's quite convenient. It's really convenient, especially if you're having messages from five different people in a group chat from five different geographic locations. How would that, you know, how would you ever track that? So all of these things are possible because of setting up a standard reference point from which all of these calculations are done automatically before it even reaches you. So you know, a lot of hassle or confusion is kind of

Yes and even with the satellites because GPS, the earth is rotating satellites are rotating and they have to measure the time across where they are on the planet and they have to measure it precisely so that they don't lose time or gain time. And they are always in orbit. And the flights they also cross across multiple time zones also they also have to maintain time. All this has to be done for navigation and for digital purposes. So that's why I think having a standard and maintaining the standard is very important. I mean, we don't realise how much important work goes on. And that is one of the reasons I selected this topic because it impacts a lot of us.

Absolutely, absolutely not. I mean, it impacts a lot of people in IT a lot, but it actually impacts all of us. And it's good to know about it and all the calculations that are happening as you are receiving various information in Outlook. You know, if you work if I receive, you know,

Scheduling, yes. So there are so many apps for scheduling that, that takes the hassle of okay, if I'm at Pakistan, and you're in Bangladesh, and we have to coordinate a meeting from London with someone in London, how do you do that? And that's how it works because then you can go to the calendar, you just put the location it tells you Okay, for this date, this is the time and these are the overlap. So at 6am in London, it will be this time in Pakistan this time in Bangladesh. So now you decide which time you want to select. And this will be the time for those people. And you can then select the meeting date.

Exactly, exactly. So yeah, I mean, UTC makes the lives of software engineers’ easier, not just that, but lives of everyone is Yeah, bye by you know by consequence. So, it definitely is a very interesting topic. And also it kind of opens the door for you for our audience to sort of think about longitude and latitude and how the world is divided arbitrarily by humans, but it is divided and you know, standardised and agreed upon by everyone in the world. So it is quite important, arbitrary or not. And it sort of answers a lot of questions about us as well and where you are in in it. And you know, when you travel and how things are being calculated. And to be honest, actually remember one of the questions I had Amit when you were explaining that. So, you know when we divided earth in, you know, longitudinally and latitude, horizontally and vertically, we would end up with squares, right? one going in one axis….

kind of like a grid. Yes. Yeah. But it won't be exactly square because it's on a sphere.

Exactly that that is my point that you know, the higher you know, the up farther north or south you go the shape of square would be less of less and less like a sphere less. Square. So how does the so that also means that the division, the vertical, sort of flying

They get closer and closer in the in the north pole and south Pole, so that's why the days are almost 24 hours and nights are almost 24 hours. So you must have heard about the midnight sun. So it is because of that because you are having constant. The sun never sets. Yeah. It’s always daylight because it you're right, it comes down to that point. The sun never sets and the sun never rises. So that's the phenomena that happens because of the sphere and because of the way, earth this tilted on its axis. And because of the way the sun because of the way Earth rotates around orbits.

Because of the tilt. I, which I think it only sets once every six months in North Pole, right? That's…

something like that. And then it's opposite in South poll. Yeah, so you have the midnight sun, but then you also have darkness in winter for a very long time and sometimes it's dark.

So this is where it confuses me a little bit. So because of the vertical lines being closer and closer, the sun never sets or the other way around. The sun never sets.

The sun never rises

Yeah, Now That it doesn't affect the actual time that passes. I mean, it's still 24 hours in a day right? But how do you define a day if the sun is not

No no no…. So it is still I mean, but at the Arctic Circle, Arctic circle or and Ant-Arctic Circle? The time Yes, it is. It is passing 24 hours but for them it is always though it is always dark or always sunny.

Right right.

What is the exact question I mean, does that

My question is I'm I think I'm being confused with the actual daytime and the 24 hours that's being passed, right? So, you know, so the more you know, earth is rotating once, which is 24 hours, but so I north pole and south pole isn't it that you're moving slowly?

yes. Yes. Yes.. Yes. So,

Right, so the distance between two vertical lines. The earth is Yeah, you're you're crossing that that less of a distance in a longer time.

Yes.

Right. That's why it's still 24 hours.

Exactly.

It's not like less than 24 hours. Yes. Yes. So that's okay. So yeah, no, I mean, I was confused but as I was explaining it, I you kind of got that. But yeah, it's so interesting. I hope So the audiences as excited to know all of this as I am. And thank you Amit for you know, going through all of this. I mean, I had actually very limited knowledge on that. But when you came up with the topic, I thought this would be an opportunity for me to learn and hopefully the audience had the same sort of thought and you know, are going away with an interesting outlook on how this affects our lives and how the whole thing works on a macro level as well. Yeah, so yeah. Again, to the audience that, you know, if you guys have any questions on what we talked about, please do reach out to us or if you have any suggestions, feedback, or if you'd like to join us as a guest, please do reach out. Our contact details are available in all of the media's that you can hear us or listen to, or see us in video on YouTube as well. So, once again, thank you very much, viewers and listeners for listening to this talk. And hopefully, we'll see you again on all the all our upcoming talks.

Thanks, everyone. Bye.

Thank you.