Women, Fashion, and Consumerism: Part 2
In the second episode of this three-part series, we delve into the complex relationship between our mental state and our consumption habits, exploring the influence of social media marketing, the emotional triggers behind impulsive shopping, and the pervasive impact of fast fashion on consumer behaviour.
Tune in for practical strategies to combat unsustainable buying practices, with an emphasis on the need for self-reflection, mindful consumption, and wardrobe satisfaction.
Guests:
Mentioned in this episode:
About the show:
This is Reloved Radio: Sustainable Fashion Stories, the fortnightly show that brings you inspiring stories from guests who are making a positive impact in the sustainable fashion space.
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Credits:
Music: 'Old Leather Sneakers' by PineAppleMusic
Hey, Relovers.
2
:Welcome back to our conversation
about women, fashion and consumerism.
3
:If you're just joining us, I'm
Chryssius Dunn, your host, and this
4
:is part two of our three part series.
5
:If you haven't had a chance yet we highly
recommend going back and listening to part
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:one, where we talked about the challenges
of consumption habits and the impact of
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:fast fashion on women and the environment.
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:It's pretty much the foundation
for today's conversation.
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:So definitely go and check that one out.
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:Today, we're talking about why we buy and
looking at the relationship between our
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:mental state and our consumption habits.
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:Before we jump in let's quickly
re-introduce our panelists: gentle coach
13
:Vive Oldham, money coach Jacinta Ebsworth,
slow fashion advocate, Charlie Smith, and
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:sustainable fashion expert Hazel Law.
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:I want to start today's conversation
with social media marketing,
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:because it plays such a pivotal
role in the fast fashion industry.
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:And it's something that we're all
bombarded with pretty much 24/7.
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:I'd love to hear from you, Charlie,
particularly on social media and the
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:convenience of one-click shopping.
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:Charlie: So I think the biggest one is
that these fast fashion houses are being
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:involved in events such as Coachella,
Splendor in the Grass and all of these
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:like big events that already are so
good at making you have that sense of
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:FOMO that immediately now, the way that
they do it with that one click thing is
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:they'll go one click for the Coachella
edit, one click for the Splendor in
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:the Grass edit, so immediately, these
fast fashion brands were capitalising
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:on that, And the need for when you go
into these events to consume a large
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:amount of products just to make a choice
of one outfit you were going to wear.
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:I don't know if you've ever seen
the videos of girls when they're
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:like, I'm trying on all my options
for groove and the Moo and they
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:would have like 10 outfits.
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:And all the outfits still had their
tags on them, and they were all
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:from these big fast fashion houses.
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:And it wasn't like they were just
already in their wardrobe, and they're
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:saying okay, I'm gonna shop within
my wardrobe and find something.
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:They're going, oh, and it's not
for two weeks, so if you want
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:any of these outfits, click
the link and click that now.
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:And immediately it's there, and that these
fast fashion houses are so beautiful.
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:Smart at being able to see what's going
on in their audience's sphere, whether
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:there's events coming up, seasonal
changes, , any kind of opportunity
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:to give people that quick turnover.
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:If you type in bridesmaid dress.
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:On any of these fast fashion brand
outlets, I guarantee there will be
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:some sort of like a sale dress that
you can get and they'll offer you that
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:express shipping that you can get so
it's at your door in two days time.
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:And it's so accessible that it's like
how, how is any sort of ethical and local
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:brands supposed to compete with that?
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:Like really because at the end of the day
if if say I have an event that has come
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:up For Wednesday, I actually I do have
an event on Wednesday If I wasn't someone
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:who already shopped within my wardrobe and
you know shop sustainably I'm actually at
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:the moment doing a no buy freeze as well.
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:I could easily jump on to one of those big
fast fashion houses and pick two different
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:things to order Order it to my house and
have them here tomorrow afternoon and
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:anything I didn't like, I could send back.
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:And that's also the problem.
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:You can just send back things
you don't want and get a refund.
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:Chryssius: It really is so easy.
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:Too easy.
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:Hazel, tell us how these kinds
of marketing leads to and
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:sustainable shopping habits.
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:Hazel: It really comes down to it
unsustainable consumption is born
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:from the position of wanting to
really fit in and be part of something
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:that's bigger than ourselves.
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:So the way that plays out in our
kind of secular societies nowadays
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:is it shows up in over consumption.
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:It's what we might have outsourced to
religion or spirituality or that kind of
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:like inner work in previous generations.
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:It's now the go to consume,
like we were saying last week.
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:And there's this amazing podcast
by Amanda Lee McCarty called
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:the Clothes Horse Podcast.
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:And she, in her words, she
says that fashion thrives on
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:the feeling of being left out.
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:So everything that fashion marketing
is, social media, fashion marketing,
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:and the two are inextricably
linked at this point in our lives.
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:They use all of these strategies
to make us feel less than.
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:So that's the comparison piece,
competition, exclusion, inequality
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:financial instability, and then
preying on our self esteem.
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:So all of those things, really, lead to
make us feel "othered" and "less than".
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:And once we're feeling less than
and othered, we want to buy more.
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:So as long as they're continuing to make
us feel unworthy, we'll keep buying.
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:And luckily for capitalism, we can.
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:Because capitalism and the fast fashion
model is built on this infinite growth.
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:It's why companies can or can
quote unquote can lose money.
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:When they are creating ultra fast fashion.
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:You like stuff like purchasing
way too many units of each garment
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:to get the lowest price possible.
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:A lot of the units that are actually
made of the clothes that we buy are then
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:destroyed or sent to landfill because
they're, they were never really bought.
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:There were always too many to be
sold but it was so that company could
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:get that bottom line figure from the
the, the factory that they're using
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:But the company's book looks like it
makes a profit, like the boards and
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:the stakeholders are happy with that.
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:But it's, the world isn't
created for infinite growth.
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:The planet is not created
for infinite growth.
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:It's not, it only works if
the only thing that we want to
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:have is the profit of money.
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:And obviously that's not working for us.
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:Yeah, so I've got a few
more things to say on that.
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:But yeah, so basically, people, the
people making our clothes and the
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:people that are consuming the clothes
are not happy because essentially what
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:is being created is future rubbish.
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:Like, they are creating clothing
that we are consuming at an
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:absolutely ridiculous rate.
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:Ridiculous rate that actually has,
obsolescence built into those pieces.
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:So it's built to break down.
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:It's built to, it's built not to last
which only leaves us in a position
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:where we feel like we have to buy more
because we have such a low consumer
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:cost that actually those pieces don't
feel like it doesn't feel profitable
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:or financially sensible for us to
alter them or to get them repaired
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:because they were so cheap to buy.
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:And yeah, just going back to the
question, the kind of unsustainable
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:consumption habits, we're really we're
really at the whim of social media,
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:I would say like there's more than 3.
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:5 billion people that use these free
quote unquote free Meta platforms
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:such as Facebook or Instagram.
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:But like if we don't pay for the
product, we are the product and what
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:is being mined from us using these
social media platforms is our data.
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:And that data goes to these companies
and it's overwhelmingly fast fashion.
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:Websites or like websites like Vogue
that have these tracking systems on there
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:that then will like track us across the
internet, what we look at, how long we
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:look at it, how what we're looking at
before we start to buy stuff so that they
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:can actually push those things on us.
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:And like we live in a world where
we don't have a gap between.
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:and purchasing anymore.
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:So I've been reading "Good
With Money" by Emma Edwards.
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:And she says that because buying has
become so easy for us, we just don't
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:have any time to debate with ourselves
if we really need something, or we're
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:just experiencing this fleeting desire.
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:So we're going, on social media, we can
go from seeing, swiping, purchasing,
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:and moving on within a matter of
minutes without, you know, even a
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:second thought, which is what creates
this mindless consumption and more
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:mindless consumption than ever before.
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:And therefore more over
consumption than ever before.
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:Chryssius: And it's not
even a matter really.
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:Hazel: Seconds.
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:Yeah.
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:Yes.
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:Yes.
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:Chryssius: If have your details saved
into your phone, it's literally three
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:taps and you've purchased something.
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:And it's just, it's that instant
gratification like it is actually instant.
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:Vive: so impulsive.
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:I was thinking as you were talking,
Hazel, I've seen a few people do
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:this in the online course space,
where they actually encourage people
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:to slow down before purchasing.
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:And I deeply respect it.
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:I'm like, thank you for
bringing that to my attention.
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:And so that you're not
just buying on impulse.
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:like in the terms and conditions where
it says we encourage you to slow down
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:and to consider if this is the right
thing for you before you purchase.
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:So it's nice to know that while some
aspect of culture is funneling us into
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:the impulse to buy, there are people out
there who are recognising, who are being
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:counter culture and saying Hey, slow down.
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:It's just not in fashion yet.
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:Hazel: But what's interesting in that,
Vive, is that from fashion, like in
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:fashion and fashion history, there is
always the anti fashion, there has to be.
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:And it's what happens behind the scenes
when something is so strongly in the
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:kind of forefront of what we're seeing,
like, whether it's on the catwalks
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:or whether it's the counterculture is
what's happening behind the scenes.
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:And that is what reacts
to the mainstream culture.
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:And it always happens.
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:I think that is what's so important
because without that kind of like pull
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:and shove, that's not the right term,
but you know, without that, like give and
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:take, there is just one homogenized world.
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:And that's not, what we
can't live like that.
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:Chryssius: And what are some of
those tricks that the fast fashion
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:brands use to make us feel that sense
of urgency and the fear of missing
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:out or "FOMO" when we're shopping?
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:Charlie: So I would say the tricks
that they use is everything is really
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:immediate all the sales I've tend
to notice that on the websites they
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:tend to be like a countdown timer
Have you ever seen that on websites
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:how it's like the countdown timer.
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:to when the sale ends?
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:But have you ever noticed that the
next day the sales back on and it's
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:another 48 hours, but it's an even
bigger sale this time to the point
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:where I'm starting to think the
original price never actually occurs.
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:If that makes sense.
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:Like they're just,
everything's always on sale.
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:And that timer is like immediately
planting that urgency in your brain
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:that you need to buy now and you need
to make that choice now instead of
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:thinking about it and thinking about
the consumption and thinking about
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:whether you actually need that piece
or whether you like it or whether you
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:want to look, you know, is it on your
Pinterest board of things that you'll,
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:you know, been wanting to buy for a while.
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:Like they've got that timer and you're
going, the bomb's about to go off.
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:I'm about to miss out.
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:I'm about to have that fear.
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:FOMO of that insane sale, or even now
noticing that brands are doing it when
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:they're launching, there's like such a big
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:countdown, kind of like
literally a representation of
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:numbers is immediately there.
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:So it's going, here's the
problem in marketing 101.
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:Here's the solution to solve it.
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:But instead of just solving it
in general, you have to solve it
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:by the end of the 48 hour sale.
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:And a lot of the time what they also do
is as someone who's been on the other
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:side of it when you are involved in
influencer campaigns is often you're
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:told to post while the countdown's on.
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:So post this weekend.
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:And the best one is you used to get
told to be to post your discount code.
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:Within like a 12 hours of the sale ending.
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:So it was that urgency that you are
then putting onto people and go,
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:well, you've only got 12 hours left.
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:If you want this jacket I'm
wearing, it's 70 percent off.
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:You don't even realize that
you're being manipulated.
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:And then from there, you're manipulating
others into having that FOMO as well.
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:Hazel: Yeah.
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:So I'd say that fast fashion marketing
basically lives breathes and uh, expands
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:on the idea of scarcity and exclusivity.
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:So basically, the scarcity piece
is so dangerous because they are
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:encouraging us to always buy now.
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:And we were talking about and
they've, like, they've doubled their
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:profits to two billion dollars.
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:billion US dollars.
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:And so that figure alone from that one
company tells us that clearly there isn't
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:a shortage of items, like there are items
everywhere, but the illusion that they
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:are selling us is that there is a scarcity
of either the piece that we so it
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:kind of sells us the idea in a few ways.
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:And it also creates a state of this
cognitive dissidence, because even when
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:we've seen the images of the tons and
tons and tons of fabric and clothing
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:in landfill, we still somehow buy into
the fact that this one piece that we
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:need is, you know, not ever going to
be available again, or from anywhere
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:else, secondhand, or, you know, that
the cyclical trends that we know will
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:roll around, we feel in that moment.
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:Vive: Is that also like if someone was to
run a limited edition series of things?
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:Hazel: Yeah.
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:So I was actually going to say, so
Zara are like number two, say in the
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:like traditional fast fashion, right?
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:So we've got ultra fast
fashion now and fast fashion.
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:So and the way that they do that,
or one of the really clever ways
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:that they do that is they only keep a
very small amount of stock in store.
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:So when you go in, you think, Oh,
there's only like six of these tops or
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:10 of these tops, they look amazing.
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:Like I have to buy it now because
they're not going to be, they're
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:going to run out, but all it is is
behind the scenes, they're just like.
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:Constantly airshipping these clothes
from all over the world to this one spot,
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:this one airstrip, where I think it's
in Turkey, but don't quote me on that.
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:And then they ship out, very, very
small batches to all of their stores
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:to create this illusion in store that
there's a scarcity of their clothing.
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:Like, but it's all an illusion.
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:Like, it's just very clever,
very evil marketing, really.
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:they kind of sell us that
in a few different ways.
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:So like trends, obviously like trends
are, pretty much just there to convince
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:us that we need to be on trend.
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:and it's a really good way of getting
us to dispose of clothes that are
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:perfectly good to replace them
with clothes that are just as good.
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:Like, it's just a trick.
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:Like it's a trap really.
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:And we've also been conditioned
to believe that old is bad.
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:Okay.
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:and, and that's kind of
in more ways than one.
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:So, Like, telling a woman that she's,
like, if she's wearing, say, skinny
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:leg jeans, that's, like, dating her.
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:That's telling everyone how old she is.
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:That's telling everyone, that she's
a millennial and that she needs to
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:basically, like, move with the times.
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:So, That's gonna motivate
someone, a woman.
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:more to buy something on trend
because we don't want to appear to
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:be old because we've been fed this
like lie that aging is a bad thing
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:rather than the privilege that it is.
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:Vive: Yeah.
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:Chryssius: We can all probably
relate to using shopping as
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:therapy, at some stage in our lives.
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:Why do we do that?
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:What emotions are driving those
impulsive shopping behaviors?
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:Charlie: Okay, I Want to say it's that
inner perfectionist that most of the
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:time people are going to these online
shopping platforms for comfort.
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:Feeling textures and having that sensory
experience with garments in person can
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:often be like a self soothing behavior.
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:I mean we see it in children, but
we also do see it in ourselves.
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:Like wearing, when you feel sick
you put on comfortable clothes,
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:you put on a comfortable fluffy
jumper and fluffy track suit pants.
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:If you're feeling emotionally vulnerable
it's not a surprise that you reach for.
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:garments that feel nice in your hands.
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:I mean, if you look at the clothing
you reach for when you're unwell or
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:not feeling very well emotionally,
it's very different to when you're
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:feeling anguish or feeling upset.
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:Like it's very different and I think
that mostly with online, people reach
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:for it for that comfort and feel that
sense of fulfillment and that little
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:bit of emptiness it can, you know, be.
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:when we're feeling the comparison
between ourselves and the life
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:that we want or the comparison of
where we are now versus where we
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:used to be or where we want to be.
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:And immediately it's that feeling of
inadequacy that we tend to have in
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:ourselves and that relationship to
self that we tend to go and seek out in
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:these online platforms, clothing stores,
that we're not meeting our own needs
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:or our needs aren't being met, so we
go and find something else to fill it.
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:Vive: There's a sense of
satisfaction from taking action.
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:So when we purchase if we're feeling
like, we're a bit, say, overwhelmed,
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:out of control not making progress.
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:There's also a sense of being able to take
action and do something rather than being
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:with whatever feelings we're experiencing.
292
:So it's this slippery slide into
not only getting that dopamine hit
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:from thinking about the purchase and
actually making the purchase, but this
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:sense of actually doing something.
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:So they're sort of feeding into
that to feel like I'm doing,
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:I'm achieving, like I'm making progress.
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:I'm not feeling good in my body, well,
at least I'm doing something about it.
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:And then, that's an easier
thing to do than sit with the
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:discomfort of why am I needing that?
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:Why am I feeling like I need that?
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:I mean, that's a hard question to be with.
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:Charlie: Absolutely.
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:Well, at the end of the day, part of
the human condition is craving control.
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:We're always seeking
things that we can control.
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:And one thing that we often
have the most control of is the
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:way that we dress ourselves.
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:, and then stepping further into that, how
we consume before we dress ourselves.
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:So when we don't feel a sense of
control in our lives, of course,
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:we're going to turn to a shop where
we can pick how we dress our body.
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:And if we feel a sense of stress
and we feel as though everything
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:else in our sphere is out of
control, well, what can we control?
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:We can control the clothes
we put on our body.
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:So let's go spend some money, or
you even notice when people can't
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:control things, they eat more.
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:So they control what they're eating.
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:putting in their body or they eat
less, but that's not for this.
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:That's not for this conversation.
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:Uh, I am not a psychologist, so
that's not for me to comment on.
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:Uh, but there's so many aspects
of our lives that we crave
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:and we crave that control.
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:And actually, I've got a book on this.
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:It's called everything
is fucked and I love it.
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:And it's a book about hope.
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:And one of the things that he talks
about is the paradox of progress and that
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:right now, the place that we're in, in
the space, in this world, we're actually
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:in one of the best times to be alive,
because, which, you know, it sounds
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:pretty crazy thinking of it, because we
have all the medical advancements we've
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:ever need for everything to go well.
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:We have technological advances that
get better and better each day.
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:We are better at communicating.
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:Our education is getting
better and better.
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:We're in one of the times that we
have the most rights as a "female"...
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:on paper, on paper.
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:I'm going to preface that with, but
what the paradox of progress is, is
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:that with all of that, we're actually
in a time where most people feel the
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:most lonely and most depressed that
they've ever felt in their life.
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:And realistically what we are doing
from that is we're now craving more
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:and more self control and we're craving
a control on our environments and our
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:spheres which we don't regularly have
because everything is just progressing
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:faster than we can keep up with.
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:We have these two parts of our brains.
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:We have the logical brain and
we have the emotional brain.
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:And with that, when our emotional
brain is craving something, our
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:logical brain steps in with a
solution and steps in with a comfort.
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:And I think at this day and
age and in this society.
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:One of the main things that we do,
and especially as women we tend to do,
347
:is we tend to go to clothing stores
or online stores and occupy ourselves
348
:with things and possessions and objects
to cure that lack of self control
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:and lack of hope in our own world.
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:Vive: And moving towards
an aspirational identity.
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:Hazel: And an unachievable
aspirational identity.
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:Like it's, always going to be elusive.
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:It's never going to be,
"Oh, this is it now."
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:Chryssius: But it comes back
to the dream, doesn't it?
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:It comes back to the dream
that they're selling us.
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:Hazel: Yeah, absolutely.
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:And the illusions that the
whole industry is built upon.
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:Um, Yeah, this is crazy.
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:Chryssius: What about from a
financial viewpoint, Jacinta, how
360
:do you think that social media is
driving this impulsive spending?
361
:Jacinta: Speaking to what Hazel
said people need to understand,
362
:like it was a quote from the
documentary, the social dilemma.
363
:And if it is, if you're not paying for
the product, which is using the platform,
364
:like Instagram, you are the product
and for people to understand that.
365
:So it's so accessible to us
because it's at your fingertips.
366
:And I think from a deep understanding
about marketing, they personalize
367
:the marketing messages to you.
368
:Like they're tailored specifically
to the individual in their algorithm.
369
:So they know in, in quote bracket, What
you're looking for from your search
370
:history, your activity, what's trending,
what messages they pick up on your phone.
371
:Like they tailor the message to you.
372
:So it can seem for some people
like destiny air quotes.
373
:If you see the outfit you want.
374
:And you keep seeing it everywhere though.
375
:Like you see it on different
platforms, and the ads running in
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:your email, on your social media
and it's like it's haunting you.
377
:So you're like, Oh, that's
what I was looking for.
378
:How did it know, but it's It's
perfectly designed to work this way.
379
:And it said that social media provides
people with like an ideal opportunity to
380
:compare themselves with others online.
381
:So the other rise that I've seen in the 10
years, cause I got into social media like
382
:the food pics and like when I was living
overseas and I would like review places
383
:and post pictures, but what didn't exist
then that is now is the influencer impact.
384
:So influences.
385
:encourage people to into
their consumer behavior.
386
:Like they do these brand hauls and
what I'd wear to, and they get you
387
:to survey, like, I've got a wedding
coming up and they just have 10
388
:or more dresses to just try on.
389
:is crazy, but it's like, kind of makes
it into it, like you're there with
390
:your friend trying on clothes, like
in a change room, and then they'll
391
:post links to where they got things
and it's just very encouraging.
392
:personable, but it's obviously
on like a global scale.
393
:And that's definitely something that
people just need to understand, like,
394
:it's not magic, it's marketing and
the algorithm is dictated by you.
395
:So in terms of that, like you have tools
to utilize, like you can block pages,
396
:you can block keywords so they don't
come up in your feed, like you can
397
:curate your feed sort of better align
with your goals and what you want, like
398
:if you want to cut down on spending.
399
:Or seeing certain things, like you can
block ads, you can turn off suggested
400
:posts, but , you have to sort of be
proactive in you want to approach using
401
:media for yourself if you need, like,
limitations on, impulsive spending.
402
:Vive: think it comes down to that first
point of call, like you say Jacinta,
403
:that the first thing is how am I
myself, like with social media period.
404
:Jacinta: Yeah.
405
:Like what am I going in here for?
406
:Vive: yeah,
407
:Jacinta: Yeah, because I constantly delete
the app from my phone when I'm like it's
408
:a bit too much on the reels, young lady.
409
:And it's wild like how different you feel.
410
:Not, like I go to my phone and I'm
like, oh there's nothing to look at.
411
:Close it.
412
:Like,
413
:I,
414
:you,
415
:Chryssius: it up.
416
:Vive: I find,
417
:Jacinta: Checking the bank
account that hasn't moved.
418
:Yeah.
419
:Vive: that it's, it's that impulsivity for
even just pressing the screen of the phone
420
:that dopamine hit of like, Oh, there's a
message or like you say, checking the bank
421
:account or checking the it's so habitual.
422
:Email checking the social media, checking
423
:Jacinta: to check.
424
:Yeah.
425
:Yeah.
426
:Vive: Sorry that I don't have the
actual book name, but it was talking
427
:about the fact that you're even you're
already getting the dopamine hit.
428
:As soon as you decide I'm to get onto
social media, you're already receiving a
429
:dopamine hit before you even get onto it.
430
:If I decide I'm going to eat a chocolate
bar, you're actually already getting
431
:a dopamine hit before you eat the
432
:Hazel: Yes, if the dopamine
is around the desire.
433
:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
434
:Vive: Yeah.
435
:And we're seeking out this kind of
this fashion and we're seek, we're
436
:sort of encouraged to be seeking
it out constantly externally.
437
:Like everything externally, I
can't create that for myself
438
:within the wardrobe that I have.
439
:There's a sense somehow in the Western
culture that we're all living in...
440
:That we get that from
outside of ourselves.
441
:There's no one saying go inward and
explore what you already have, hazel.
442
:Hazel: It's me.
443
:No, but you're absolutely right.
444
:It's like we're outsourcing our
sense of identity because that's
445
:essentially what clothes are, , because
they're so closely linked to our,
446
:you know, they're our second skin.
447
:They are how we portray
ourselves in the world.
448
:And we are outsourcing our own
identity to fashion marketing.
449
:Vive: that's a part of a bigger
picture, a bigger conversation of
450
:outsourcing our own wisdom to experts.
451
:Hazel: Yeah, absolutely.
452
:And I think, , it's interesting
what you were saying about social
453
:media and the dopamine hit because
I notice it myself when I'm having a
454
:particularly tough time with my children.
455
:Like if I'm having a day where
everyone is just screaming, I'll
456
:just look at my phone somewhere.
457
:I just need some like
mental peace you guys.
458
:And like, it's not
offering me anything else.
459
:Other than, really, more screaming,
because they're gonna be upset that I'm
460
:not paying them 100 percent attention.
461
:But I'm like, I just, I get into that
habitual space where I'm like, I need
462
:three minutes to look at my phone, so
that I can just completely disassociate
463
:with what's actually happening
464
:Vive: And that's the
nervous system thing, right?
465
:So the nervous system's flooded and
it's like, what can I do that is, and
466
:it's so easy, it's so accessible, I can.
467
:Check out in this way and then we
might get served something like was
468
:talking about that's the algorithm
serves us something and then it's
469
:like, Oh, I've checked out, but
then I've been served something
470
:that's going to give me a feeling of
whatever that positive feeling is.
471
:And of course, because we're not only
are we trying to check out from something
472
:that's felt like it's too much and then we
get offered something that's going to make
473
:us feel satisfied or like we've achieved
something or we ticked that off the list.
474
:Oh, I got those shoes
that I was really wanting.
475
:Oh, that will make me
feel like less bedraggled.
476
:Hazel: I love the word bedraggled,
motherhood and bedraggled.
477
:Vive: So bedraggled is
like my middle name.
478
:Jacinta: I also wonder if when we were
talking about like the achievement,
479
:like I've done something, I wonder if
that's an essence of like, like you go
480
:to it for a distraction, but maybe you
find like a piece of info on there,
481
:like someone telling you something
about nervous system regulation.
482
:So you actually feel like, even though
I went on to institute, found something
483
:that could be beneficial to me.
484
:So it wasn't a total waste of time.
485
:So it's like a mini achievement
486
:Vive: I feel
487
:Jacinta: to just.
488
:Yeah.
489
:Yes.
490
:Yeah.
491
:Yeah.
492
:Vive: kids in that moment were too much.
493
:And I'm like, Oh, I feel seen.
494
:So that whole piece around that Hazel
talked about around really, it's tapping
495
:into the desire to belong the desire, the,
496
:Jacinta: Community.
497
:Vive: the desire to be something
other than what we are right now.
498
:So that aspirational identity stuff.
499
:They're nailing it.
500
:Hazel: And I love that thing that you
said, Jacinta, about it being like this
501
:mystical, like, apparition of, what
we were searching for, because I think
502
:there are a lot of people, myself
included, that, , look at the world
503
:like that, and, you know, some might say
that's foolish, but I have gotten, so
504
:far in my life, thinking, yep, things
are, like, coming to me in signs, , I
505
:got this, and then, like you say, the
algorithm, serves you something, and
506
:you're, like, ah, it's, like, Like,
yes, the universe is confirming my
507
:desire for X, Y, Z or whatever it is.
508
:And the way, because I'm still doing my
wardrobe freeze, the way that I've really
509
:tried to, decouple that in my mind is
that like, I just say, this isn't for me.
510
:Like this message from social media
or wherever it is, isn't for me.
511
:This marketing message isn't for me
and I just kind of have tried to like
512
:mentally shut that piece of my brain
down that's receptive and looking for
513
:those pieces so that I can continue
with my wardrobe freeze and not
514
:be distracted because because it's
so such an important goal for me.
515
:Chryssius: A topic that's come up
recently is compulsive buying disorder
516
:and how it overwhelmingly affects women.
517
:Why do you think that is?
518
:Jacinta: It's like still back to dopamine
and like seeking, some sort of reward
519
:system and it's fleeting, like you're
just constantly chasing a temporary high.
520
:It's temporary, it's short term, there's
nothing long term, they can't fathom
521
:beyond, and I'd say, if I'm going to speak
to women specifically, the space I come
522
:from, I feel like we're conditioned to
think about short term things like getting
523
:married, having a wedding, and then
like kids, but my fear for women is like
524
:retirement age and like, that's long term.
525
:So it's further away from some and like.
526
:Thinking about the planning for that.
527
:That's not really a fun
thing to get a high from.
528
:Like that's not instant.
529
:And you're in a compulsive buying set,
you're not thinking of it, and I know
530
:personally friends with older mothers
are in situations in their retirement
531
:era and are not prepared because, I'm
not saying necessarily about compulsive
532
:buying, but just like, it wasn't a
conditioning for us to think about
533
:because , back to what I said in the
last episode, my princess theory, I
534
:think we're just conditioned to think.
535
:meet a man and then be like cared for
and that's not really, that changed
536
:generationally from like our mothers
to like a millennial and we've all been
537
:working most of our lives except for
if you pause career breaks for caring
538
:and for children and things like that.
539
:But think we're not
conditioned to think long term.
540
:So like I think that feeds into
the compulsive buying because
541
:temporary and I still think.
542
:Like what I advocate for is empowering
women to understand how money
543
:works, how it works for them.
544
:Because I think the conditioning,
actually the old patriarchy and capitalism
545
:is like, we didn't have to think about it.
546
:And it was, it's not fun to think about,
and it's like, you'll be looked after.
547
:But We were just kind of shown,
earning money is to have fun with it.
548
:Travel, shop, have fun.
549
:I don't think we were taught enough
about like the practical side.
550
:And then again, like
generationally, if your mom stayed
551
:at home, didn't earn an income.
552
:didn't have super.
553
:Maybe they, my parents
didn't even own a house.
554
:So like, it's very it comes hard and fast.
555
:Like the, when reality hits, when you
are just ill prepared for like the
556
:realistic things you need, because
being able to buy outfits, can be
557
:fun, but like, it's not a skill.
558
:Like it's not gonna.
559
:Yeah.
560
:Yeah.
561
:It's current.
562
:That's what I mean.
563
:Short term.
564
:Yeah.
565
:Vive: What I have come to understand is
that perhaps generationally, certainly
566
:this has been my experience, this
very I noticed noticing an inability
567
:to be in the gap between where I am
now and where I would like to be.
568
:And if I can't tolerate being in that
gap, then I'm going to be looking
569
:for ways to make being in that kind
of That space, that kind of liminal
570
:space where I don't know, am I,
it's, oh, it's going to take work.
571
:And oh my God, it looks so far away
where I want to be, which is, having
572
:money for retirement or whatever it is.
573
:How will I feel?
574
:Okay.
575
:Okay.
576
:I'm going to, I'm more likely to do all
that impulsive buying, or there's going
577
:to be things to try to make myself feel
good in the discomfort of getting there.
578
:Jacinta: Yeah.
579
:And like, yeah.
580
:'cause you have to get, yeah.
581
:Mm-Hmm.
582
:Vive: You might liken it to
helping kids to be with frustration
583
:in the learning process.
584
:It's such a, it's such an important
point in learning, but it's a really
585
:uncomfortable place to be and you said,
we've been encouraged to kind of enjoy
586
:life, enjoy the moment, be in the moment.
587
:Live for the now.
588
:There's so many catchphrases
that you could look at like, it.
589
:That don't encourage savoring,
like savoring what we have
590
:cherishing what we have.
591
:I had this memory as Hazel was
talking earlier about, When I was
592
:16 and I was incredibly lucky.
593
:I got the opportunity to go to a
trek through Nepal and we were in the
594
:mountains of Nepal and I had just, I
remember very distinctly this moment
595
:of seeing this family that were living
relative poverty, I suppose, I would
596
:say, but they were radiant and they
had, this bowl that the mother was
597
:drying I thought to myself, holy fuck.
598
:We've got it all wrong Like look
599
:Jacinta: mm
600
:Vive: Radiant happy taking such care
of the few things that they have and
601
:it's this moment that I've come back
to again and again when I find myself
602
:going into consumer consumption mode.
603
:It's like, at 16, I saw, I witnessed
someone with very little looking
604
:incredibly content and taking care of
the, the small things that they had.
605
:And it's it's quite a kind of
profound image that I've taken
606
:with me through my whole life.
607
:And come back to.
608
:Chryssius: We're not
609
:Vive: Just not taught to cherish
and There's no relationship.
610
:That's another thing to consider.
611
:So when we're buying, we actually
haven't developed a relationship with it.
612
:So when you grow something from the and
then you get to eat it, it's like, fuck,
613
:this is awesome because you've nurtured
it and you've been relating with it.
614
:Or if you make your own, knit your
own jumper or you knit your own
615
:socks, the sense of satisfaction
that you have when you pull those
616
:socks on is something that is so
different to the sense of satisfaction.
617
:I wouldn't even say you get
a sense of satisfaction when
618
:you're doing the impulse buying.
619
:Chryssius: There's a really good book,
I've not finished reading it yet.
620
:I am making my way through it very
slowly by Tara Button and it's
621
:called "A Life Less Throwaway".
622
:And a lot of I've read so far
does focus on what you were saying
623
:about cherishing what we own.
624
:Vive: And just understanding that we're
not, we haven't learned to cherish
625
:because it's been seen as like an
indulgent or uh, there's a fear.
626
:Oh my hedonist who is
only seeking pleasure.
627
:Or there's a lot of.
628
:Fear around pleasure and
things being pleasurable?
629
:Hazel: When things aren't made with
quality aren't made with care because
630
:we have more like finance and money
in our society that when we're buying
631
:something that doesn't cost that
much money, why should we value it?
632
:Why should we care about it?
633
:Why should we feel like it was an
achievement and feel like we should
634
:have a connection to it and look
after it when it costs five dollars?
635
:, the whole system is created
in a way that, like, why care?
636
:Why care anyway?
637
:Like, it's just so, it's really sad.
638
:Chryssius: I'd really like to know
what are some practical tips or some
639
:strategies for what we can do instead?
640
:Charlie: Sit with the
feeling that you have.
641
:Sit with the feeling and
look, look at what you have.
642
:What is that garment?
643
:What does it represent?
644
:And why, why do I feel the need
to buy the mini leather skirt?
645
:What's the feeling I'm looking for?
646
:What's missing within me, or I
feel like's missing within me,
647
:that's stopping me from being that?
648
:And why do I want that so badly?
649
:Because there's so many layers to
what we want and what we desire.
650
:And when we look deep at what those are,
usually the answer is really simple.
651
:It might be that a lot of the
time it tends to be confidence.
652
:And that's the thing that these, that the
influencer market has really picked up on.
653
:Is it's using, it's capitalizing
on people with confidence to sell
654
:to people that lack confidence.
655
:Because If you're miss if you're missing
that part of your self confidence,
656
:that part of your own self worth, and
you see it on someone, and they're
657
:also trying to sell you something, you
are so much more inclined to buy it.
658
:So sit with yourself and say, what
do they have that I'm missing?
659
:And how do I give it to myself without
it actually costing me anything?
660
:chryssius_1_05-27-2024_165851:
Mm, that is such, such,
661
:an interesting perspective because
I've never thought about it that way
662
:in terms of the confidence aspect.
663
:Mm.
664
:Charlie: my biggest perspective on
that change, when I started seeing
665
:some of the clothes we were being sold
and going, I don't even like that.
666
:Like I, I'm not a fan of that
certain clothing garment, but that.
667
:Girl that's wearing it just looks so cool.
668
:But why do I want it?
669
:Oh, I want how cool she looks.
670
:I want her confidence.
671
:So really, I could wear something
completely different that
672
:feels more reflective of me.
673
:But if I pretended for five minutes
that I was her, I bet it would look,
674
:that skirt would look even better on me
because I've got the confidence to match.
675
:I think we need to think more about
instead of buying a product, It's
676
:stepping into a different level of
confidence and finding that within
677
:ourselves first, which is hard.
678
:It's easier said than done.
679
:But if you're noticing a
pattern, figure out where you
680
:can get that confidence from.
681
:It can be in sitting down and trying
a new makeup tutorial within the
682
:stuff you already have or cooking a
beautiful meal or stepping outside
683
:or spending time with friends.
684
:It can come from so many different places.
685
:It doesn't have to come from a
click and an exchange of funds.
686
:comes from inside and you have to want
it and you have to be ready to face that.
687
:And you can
688
:spend forever doing it and
finding it, but you've got to
689
:really want to move it yourself.
690
:Vive: I'm sure I said it last time, I
think one of the biggest things that
691
:has helped me personally that as soon
as I get, an impulse to purchase.
692
:And I use this and I say this
because I suffered from an
693
:eating disorder for decades.
694
:And I needed to slow down the urge to
binge and it's a, it feels, it's a similar
695
:not the same kind of addiction when
we're going to do the impulse buying.
696
:So for me it was always slowing
down and going, the feeling?
697
:What's the feeling I'm having?
698
:And what's the need?
699
:What am I needing?
700
:And even just giving myself,
asking myself those two questions.
701
:There's some really wonderful resources
on the center of non, the center of
702
:nonviolent communication around like
universal needs and also feelings when
703
:our needs are not being met and feelings
when our needs are being met that, you can
704
:print out and you can look at and you can
be like, how do I develop my nuance and
705
:my language around feelings and needs so
I get a better sense of what is going on.
706
:Chryssius: I think that's really valuable.
707
:and also Jacinta, what you said
before about, taking those physical
708
:steps, of, blocking the ads.
709
:I know you said that you remove
the apps from your phone.
710
:Did you have any specific recommendations
for apps or I know you mentioned
711
:as well.
712
:, tell that.
713
:Jacinta: Well, I, just so people
can understand, like you have the
714
:power to curate your feed, so I
just think it's really important to
715
:understand you can block suggested ads.
716
:You can block keywords if you're like
for things that you don't want to see.
717
:And then I'd also say adding
on that, yeah, finding a list
718
:of questions to ask yourself.
719
:Do I need this?
720
:Do I have something like this already?
721
:Can I wear this on
rotation in my wardrobe?
722
:Could I borrow it from someone
to see if I like it first?
723
:And another thing in terms of slowing
down, like don't save your details
724
:anywhere, your card details, because once
you have to, and we all know how annoying
725
:it is, well I still do it, like I don't
have my details saved so I have to get up.
726
:Get my wallet, still need to buy
tickets for things, but it's like
727
:there's a there's like an effort.
728
:I've got a timer.
729
:I got to like, you have to slow down.
730
:And so I think it helps,
like, I don't do the pay way.
731
:I like to get the card out.
732
:It just helps me physically
remember because otherwise it's
733
:just, I'll just be spending more.
734
:And that's like knowing yourself.
735
:So knowing what helps you.
736
:Is huge.
737
:And then I'd also, I asked myself, like,
in terms of shopping, like, does this
738
:impact my short and long term goals?
739
:Because.
740
:That's important.
741
:And then also like, will
I remember this tomorrow?
742
:Like, will I be thinking about
this tomorrow, next week,
743
:or next month, or next year?
744
:And then also like, crucial
is, what am I feeling?
745
:And when was the last
time I felt like this?
746
:, maybe it's not even related
to necessarily shopping.
747
:Like, it could be another time.
748
:And then what, like speaking
to nervous system regulation,
749
:like, what can I do to regulate?
750
:And then a huge one is your whole
outfit, you could just change your
751
:hair, because you can put something
else on it when you have new hairdo.
752
:Everything looks new, so
that's a bonus, I think.
753
:Chryssius: that.
754
:Hazel: My work is all around working
with women to get them to a place
755
:where they have more wardrobe
satisfaction with what they already own.
756
:So in , the time that I've been doing
my wardrobe freeze, so it's almost 260
757
:days now, what I've realized is that
for me, the dopamine gets ignited
758
:in my brain when I find a new outfit
combination, as opposed to buying
759
:something new when I find another like
absolutely banging outfit combination
760
:in the wardrobe that I already have.
761
:It gives me so much joy and so much
satisfaction and working with other women
762
:to help them achieve those kind of like
fuck yes moments with stuff that they've
763
:already spent time money and energy on.
764
:Is really like it feels really powerful
and also just being authentic to
765
:yourself like wearing what you want
to wear regardless of what the outside
766
:world is telling you Gives you A
feeling of authenticity and comfort
767
:over any trend could ever give you and
it also gives other people and other
768
:women the permission to do the same.
769
:The more you are yourself truly and in
every way that you can be, the more we
770
:can let go of needing to be on trend,
needing that to make us feel worthy
771
:and just be worthy because we are.
772
:Chryssius: In line with that, but
along the lines of that authenticity
773
:piece, dressing for our own authentic
selves and, wearing what we like,
774
:not what fast fashion and social
media is telling us we should like.
775
:I think that is super challenging
for, probably, a lot of us, a lot
776
:of us find that really challenging is
knowing who we even are to start with.
777
:Vive: visually, and even in your day
to day life with the Should what I
778
:should look like or be or do or have.
779
:It's a real flip like to figure out to
to slow down, to allow who you are to
780
:emerge, which is the natural way of life
and life cycles versus this, I think it
781
:comes back to productivity and linear
progress and outcomes and efficiency
782
:things are all of capitalism and
of the patriarchy and emergence
783
:and and letting things come
and come from within naturally.
784
:They're not things that
are valued in the current.
785
:Chryssius: No.
786
:, Hazel: And I think, in the work that
I do, I talk about, , you know, the
787
:heroine pieces within people's wardrobes,
women's wardrobes, and they're the
788
:pieces that make us feel amazing.
789
:ones that make us feel powerful, the ones
that make us feel like we are, the outward
790
:embodiment of who we really are inside.
791
:And what I found with working with all
these different women is that those pieces
792
:really hang in our wardrobes the most.
793
:So we don't wear them and it's like,
do we need the permission to wear them?
794
:Because I feel like the heroine pieces
in our wardrobes and we all know what
795
:they are without even thinking, like
I'm saying the words to you and you
796
:thinking, yep, it's that, that, that,
and that, and it's like, we don't
797
:wear them, why why don't we wear them?
798
:They're the ones that
make us feel the best.
799
:Let's flip
800
:the hierarchy.
801
:Yes!
802
:Vive: right?
803
:I think that's the thing is that
they're this wonderful piece
804
:that reflects a part of ourselves
that we love and we really honor.
805
:And that makes us feel very enlivened
and alive, but also I think we talked
806
:about that whole visibility piece is that.
807
:It's also, probably have patterns from
childhood and just from lived experience
808
:where stepping into the authenticity
meant we had to make a choice between
809
:being authentic and belonging and
probably more often than not for safety.
810
:And we chose belonging.
811
:So, as we, As are encouraged
to be authentic, we're also.
812
:it's not talked about how to
find safety in being authentic.
813
:.
That's why
814
:those incredible pieces and you don't
wear them every day because there's,
815
:it's almost like, Oh, only when I
feel bold enough, can I put that on?
816
:Hazel: But, in fashion psychology,
there's so much that says, dress
817
:for the job you want, not the
job you have, kind of mentality.
818
:Like, when we wear them, they
make us feel that way as well.
819
:So, sometimes it is, and I really hate
this phrase, but like the fake it till you
820
:make it, putting those items on is going
to give us more satisfaction overall with
821
:our wardrobes and help us to buy less
because we are feeling like what we are
822
:wearing is aligned with who we are and I
absolutely understand where you're coming
823
:from in that kind of like That fear piece.
824
:Cause obviously I feel it too.
825
:And my clients feel it and we, as women
feel it, but it's like, in order to try
826
:and flip this patriarchy to a matriarchy,
which is what needs to happen to save
827
:the planet in my opinion, like we need
to start showing up like that with like,
828
:with the fear, but just like, fuck it,
I'm going to do it anyway, because like I
829
:said, if I do it, someone else can do it.
830
:Vive: So I think it's finding
those ways to step into
831
:authenticity and be with the fear.
832
:Without suppressing it it
away or pushing through it.
833
:And I think that's the pivotal change
piece is like, well, how do I be
834
:authentic and also fear to be there?
835
:Because if we suppress it,
it's just going to come back.
836
:It's in some
837
:How do we find that way?
838
:And, there are various tools out there.
839
:So it's this sort of having the self
compassion and having the grounded
840
:confidence at the same time to step
into those wearing those pieces.
841
:And I think that's the work of women.
842
:For women stepping
843
:this change.
844
:Like you said, Hazel.
845
:I
846
:Hazel: And I love that you're
here, Veev, to bring the nuance
847
:to my just sweeping statements.
848
:Like, I love that because I was like,
this is how I feel inside, but it's not.
849
:It's so much more nuanced than that.
850
:So thank you.
851
:Vive: my pleasure.
852
:Jacinta: Yeah.
853
:And the, yeah, the same thing,
like when I work with clients,
854
:it's like the feeling they have.
855
:So if they're like fearful and then I ask
them what do they want to feel it instead?
856
:Like what's like the opposite.
857
:And then we like work on like a small
significant step to sort of that pattern.
858
:Because it's an everyday exercise and
it's not just like, in consumption,
859
:it's anything like I've talked to
people about, if you're worried about
860
:negotiating, like practice negotiating.
861
:So you can practice like
the opposite of your fear
862
:Vive: really small ways.
863
:And that's the, that has been the piece
864
:Jacinta: Yeah.
865
:Yeah.
866
:Vive: difference is it's not
a big grand gesture of like
867
:some snakes or something crazy.
868
:But it's, it's what is the just
noticeable difference that you could make?
869
:And I feel like this with purchasing or
with anything else, it's like, what is
870
:the smallest, like coming back to that
ease sense of ease, what is the smallest
871
:difference or smallest change that you
could make that almost feels effortless?
872
:And you're like, that's not enough.
873
:I haven't done enough of a change.
874
:And it's building on those
really micro kind of actions.
875
:And then you look back in
you're like, Holy fuck, I've
876
:completely changed how I shop.
877
:Jacinta: Because that's, that's
what it is, like, you're compounding
878
:the experience, but that's what
it is with your finances you're
879
:actually, , exercising a muscle.
880
:Because moving , a dollar to
a savings account is progress.
881
:You're exercising something like you're
automating, you're doing it for you.
882
:You have a goal.
883
:It's not the amount.
884
:It doesn't have to be like
a million dollars in a year.
885
:It's like these little steps.
886
:Cause the time is going to pass anyway.
887
:And a little step in, if you're
talking about a fashion is just like,
888
:wearing the earrings that you have.
889
:It doesn't, yeah, it doesn't
have to be a macro thing.
890
:It's micro, like little
891
:Not like everything we listed.
892
:That's unrealistic.
893
:Hazel: also, Like,
894
:The research shows that, like,
with people suffering from things
895
:like compulsive buying disorder,
having a small setback actually
896
:makes them just give up completely.
897
:So, Having those tiny, small, tangible
steps can help in that, like, pull
898
:and shove of, of, oh, I fucked
up so I can't possibly go on now.
899
:Vive: it's, it all or nothing mentality.
900
:And also the, the goal setting
stuff that's like set the big goal.
901
:It's I've always found that kind of
goal setting completely paralyzing.
902
:And I've never, ever
successfully executed that.
903
:Jacinta: Yeah.
904
:Vive: There's a wonderful author
called Oliver Berkman who wrote 4,
905
:000 weeks time management for mortals.
906
:And he wrote an article about friend
saying to him, Oh, you're not still
907
:thinking that you're going to arrive.
908
:right?
909
:And it's this sense that we live,
not in the moment, but in longing
910
:for when we're going to arrive and
actually dropping this idea that
911
:we're ever going to arrive anywhere.
912
:And even if we did arrive where we
wanted to arrive, we'd be looking
913
:for the next place to arrive at.
914
:, it's so important because we're living
only now we're not living in the future.
915
:We're not living in the past.
916
:We're only living in the now and we
make, we wish away so much of the
917
:now with the big aspirational goals.
918
:Hazel: I love that.
919
:It's that feeling of like, when I'm
different, like in six months when
920
:I'm a different human, not the one
921
:Vive: the arrival.
922
:Yep.
923
:Hazel: going to be this completely
924
:Vive: when I arrive at the 10 kilos
lighter, when I arrive at the looking
925
:glamorous, cause I've purchased
all of these clothes, it's like,
926
:no matter wherever you go, you're
still going to be there with those
927
:and
928
:Hazel: It's just you.
929
:Chryssius: And that's a wrap for part two.
930
:.
Once again, a huge thank you to our amazing panelists.
931
:For our listeners, make sure to mark your
calendars for the final episode in this
932
:series, which is coming out on Friday.
933
:We'll be exploring the question,
"Why do we keep outsourcing our
934
:style to fast fashion instead of
focusing on what we already have?"
935
:It's a big question and it will
provide valuable insights into your
936
:relationship with clothing and style.
937
:We'll see you then.