In this episode, we discuss Solana opening a store in New York City, Minecraft banning NFTs, Epic Games coming out in support of blockchain technologies, Mark Zuckerberg claiming the race to the metaverse is between Meta and Apple, and so much more!

Episode 35 Keywords: Solana, store, New York City, Minecraft, NFT ban, Epic Games, blockchain technologies, Mark Zuckerberg, metaverse, Meta, Apple

Welcome to the metaphysics podcast. The

Metaverse and web three are bringing about the biggest

revolution since the internet itself. With your hosts Paul the

prophet Dawalibi And Jeff the juice Cohen. We will be bringing

you the latest Metaverse, business news and insight into

what it all means. The meta business podcast starts now.

From the boardroom to the metaverse. This is the meta

business podcast. I am Paul the profit that will leave me. I'm

joined today by my friend and co host, Jeff the juice Cohen. For

those of you who are new here, welcome to the official podcast

in the metaverse. What we do is we cover the most pressing,

Metaverse, topics news of the week, we look at all of it

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business implications of everything happening in this

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share the podcast with a friend or colleague, someone who's

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who maybe doesn't know much about it.

But it was fun to introduce new people to the show, Jeff, how

you doing this week? Pretty good. Pretty good. Funny, my

cousin actually texted me like the other day and I guess he

must have been with my mom or something. And he's like, I

already have a new podcast. So he's now listening. That's

awesome. So there's always There's always new listeners,

you know, rolling and even family members sometimes you

know, aren't aren't necessarily aware. So, Hey, Johnny, you're

listening to this episode. And yeah, it's good to it's good to

continue getting more listeners. But it's a good it's a good.

It's a good thought, right? just force it on your family. If you

love the podcast, sit them all down. You know how they used to

go through, like slides from your family vacation, just sit

the whole family down and make them all listen to the podcast

or at least subscribe. I think this is this is the way to do

value its value add.

We've gotten a ton of stories. So let's jump into it. Jeff this

week. Let's start with as we usually do something maybe a

little bit lighter. And the headline here is crypto project

Solana is opening a store in New York City. Take a look inside.

So basically this is called Solana spaces. It's the first

permanent retail store funded by the Solana foundation. It's

going to be in Hudson Yards mall in Manhattan, which if you don't

know is a pretty fancy upscale mall in in New York City. And

what they're saying is the store according to this is like a it's

it's selling physical goods

but also selling digital goods with Solana pay accepted

obviously everywhere, right? So the idea is to onboard people

into the crypto space. There's a private booth for people to set

up their wallets, you know, right down it says their seed

phrase you know, so that so they can access it, should they you

know, should they go to school? What would they physically be?

So

I just from the photos that looked like hoodies and things

like that right like

merch Yeah.

But then, you know, so that it says there's branded merch

everywhere. And, again, the the goal according to them,

according to the Solana team, and the CEO of Solana spaces, is

what they say is like saying it's really around education,

right? It says, ultimately, the store is an experiment that we

think a lot of people will love. It's not obviously the

the author here says it's an expensive experiment, because

rent in a place like Hudson Yards is obviously quite high.

So but at the same time, like is it because it's funny, like as

you were talking, I jotted down on my note but literally cheap

marketing. So maybe I just think like, like to me like this seems

like actually a decently cheap form of marketing. Personally,

you know, a Superbowl ad

I guess maybe not in terms of reach, but like literally

cheaper than Superbowl ad. First thing that comes to mind and if

you're not watching the video, maybe you just Google it or go

check it out. It looks exactly like an Apple store. It clearly

model that on that as as many retail do so yeah, I was gonna

say that's like almost all of retail since the Apple Store

today.

So I mean, initially I was I was ready to hate this. I was

already to say this is another example of the excess and just

ridiculousness of web three. And what is the point of this? It's

a physical, you know, it's an inch piece of infrastructure and

digital technology. Why do they need a physical store? But then

I was thinking about, like, some of the things you said just the

onboarding process for crypto. I almost view this as like a

really good Geek Squad, right? Like if you want to get people

with the crypto they need a certain demographic of people

needs to have

Have a person right? They need to be able to talk to someone

like, how do I get? How do I put money onto my wallet? How do I

buy something with crypto do it for me? How do I create my seed

phrase, my password helped me. So I kind of say think that it

could be the equivalent of that, where it's almost like becomes a

little bit of like a Geek Squad where people in onboards a lot

like you're walking through, they're like, Okay, this is

cool. Let me go check it out. Let me ask some stupid

questions. And maybe you bring more people into the ecosystem,

like, will this store make money or provide a great ROI? You

know, for Silvana, the end of the day, I probably doubt it.

But it's kind of a good thing for the ecosystem actually, like

I just think it will, it will educate folks. It will it will

it really did things like I don't know. Like, how many

people like honestly, do you think will go through this

store? On a daily basis?

Probably a decent amount. Like if you're just, you know,

browsing through the mall. It's pretty high in Miko. You

obviously know it. Well. Yeah. How many? How many crypto

wallets? Do you think they'll activate in a day?

75 I don't, I don't think it'll be anywhere near that. I figure

like two an hour maybe right? There's like one or two of these

pods, right? Like two an hour or something like that. You're

talking like 16 wallets activated in an eight hour kind

of work day ish.

Like back of the envelope math, if the space cost them 100 grand

a month. And it may be more actually because I don't know

what, you know,

real estate, like retail space costs and Hudson Yards, but I

did the back of the envelope math, like you're talking about

cost of customer acquisition. Even I think in the most

conservative scenarios around $200.

But like, that actually is not that bad. I think I aren't

uncertain. You know, like, I think crypto.com Like a lot of

these companies have been paying like, massive sign on fees. Like

if you if you join their,

you know, their exchange, like they'll give you $50 For your

$25 Free it's like 200 Our customer acquisition cost

actually, like, you know, doesn't strike me as that high.

Now, I think so. Maybe they're looking for more b2b. So maybe

they're they're looking just to generate the high end Mall. You

get the right kind of people in there. Maybe they think, okay,

you're you're getting executives that aren't the tastemakers,

exactly, exactly. You kind of get the tastemakers, the

decision makers to kind of to come through there. And then

they get hooked. And it also creates a brand Halo, right? You

have this great store this great mall, and it becomes all of a

sudden, Solana edges themselves above the competition, just in

the mindshare of the right people like you are talking

about that they're hedge funds in that in that space. It's, you

know, all sorts of titans of industry walking through that

mall. So I don't know, maybe that maybe it makes sense. I

mean, you're talking about spending, though, that is on the

order of a Superbowl ad, right, like between rent outfitting it.

People, right, like you're talking millions of dollars at

this point?

I don't know. Like, maybe it was they were better off just like

sponsoring and Mr. Beast, here's the question.

And maybe this maybe this was mentioned in the article, maybe

it wasn't, and maybe they have this decision made? And maybe

they don't? Do you think this was a one off? Like kind of

we'll see this for six months as almost like a pop up shop? Or is

this going to be part of a broader? There's going to be one

in Miami, there's going to be one in San Francisco, one in

Chicago? Because I think it'd be interesting if that's the case.

I don't know.

It says in the article. It's a permanent physical retail space.

So it's not a pop up. Now, what their plans are in terms of

expansion.

That's not mentioned. If you had to bet will we see any more of

these?

Yes, yes, because the the article does say that this is

being paid for by the Solana Foundation. And they're, they're

the ones like they're the ones covering all the costs of the

store. And their goal is to, you know, help build out the Solana

ecosystem. And I would think, if they've committed to this retail

model permanently in New York City. In other words, not like a

three month pop up, you have to believe that it's part of some

broader plan. I mean, this just makes me even more makes me hate

it even more to be honest, right? If we see like 12 retail

stores, again, for a product that is inherently digital, and

I don't I don't really get it if the goal is to sign up my

grandmother. I don't think that achieves that really either.

She's not gonna wander into the Solana store and go like Hey

guys, what's going on here? Right, like, Sign me up. That's

true. But like you do see this like with even you know, like, I

think back to when Tesla like famously put like, showrooms in

the mall, and like you could argue yes, you do need to go see

a car. It's a physical

I get the difference. But it was a different kind of direct to

consumer that what the way cars had been sold for hundreds of

years. And it kind of worked. So I don't know. I would bet two

things happen with this one, they get bogged down with like a

bunch of the noobs who come in and they set up their wallet,

that like a week later the wallet they can't figure out how

to make it work. And so there's like a lot of people wandering

in the store like, Where'd my bitcoin go? Right? Like, there's

a lot of that.

And then the second group like they buy the NFT in the store

and then they don't know why they can't take home like the

physical thing on the wall that they thought they just bought. I

feel like it's gonna be 5050 between unhappy experiences and

like 50% that maybe walk away having

in people the intelligence of the people of your old girl

neighborhood I don't have a lot of faith in retail unless it's

truly an experience right and and it's truly for a physical

product that is an experience like Apple Stores work because

you can touch and feel and that you know the MacBook and like,

like it's not just because they're educating you and it's

not just because the Geek Squad is there it is. That is a

physical good with digital goods. This just seems like a

waste but I mean time will tell we'll see. Maybe you'll have to

go check it out. Jeff, I guess right. You'll have to go see me

and we'll report back how about that

let's talk about Minecraft in the news Minecraft. You know, I

know we're Metaverse and web three podcast but Minecraft has

taken a stance here and and the headline is popular blog game.

Like I will always love when like non gaming endemic

outlets report on anything gaming popular block game

Minecraft says no to NF Ts and the blockchain. So Mojang

Studios which is owned by Microsoft, they make Minecraft

they've come out and they've said we are not going to do NF

T's NF T's are not that they say oh, let me read the statement

directly. Nf T's are not inclusive of all of our

community and create a scenario of the haves and have nots.

Mojang also said that the mindset NF T's would introduce

into Minecraft would tarnish players long term enjoyment of

the game, the company expressed concern that players would spend

more time appraising NF T's values and trying to make money

through Minecraft over playing the game itself. So there's a

ban on NF Ts, but they're saying they're gonna pay close

attention to how the technology evolves right there. They're not

ruling it out forever. They say they have no plans of

implementing blockchain into Minecraft right now. So

Minecraft, you know, maybe the best selling game of all time by

some counts 238 million copies sold.

What do you make of them taking the stand, essentially banning

NF T's from their ecosystem. I mean, the cynic in me says, you

know that this is just like a closed platform wanting to keep

the platform closed and make the money themselves. Right, right.

Like they want to be the one selling the Digital Goods and

getting all the money rather than having it be open

transactions. Kind of a lot of the benefits of the of the

blockchain. One of the things we've also talked a lot about is

how the existing games that have massive player bases really

don't have an incentive to be interoperable. And we both

identified interoperability as one of the main like benefits.

The one of the actually, probably the only benefits that

we can see currently, of having blockchain and games is being

able to take things one game to another. Well, if you're in

Minecraft, and you're literally the 800 pound gorilla, you're

arguing out of the top five game currently in your player base?

Well, I would you want to make your game interoperable,

interoperable with anything, because that just means that

people are going to be leaving your game not coming into your

game. So I they really don't have a big incentive to to

integrate blockchain and make it more open. So that's, that's, I

guess, number one. So I do want to hit them a bit on that.

Having said that, some of their points around tarnishing long

term engagement and creating a world of haves and have nots did

resonate with me a little bit, because I think that's something

we've talked a lot about, you know, within, within our

conversations on this podcast is that once you incorporate this

financial mechanism, and that's really what the blockchain is

currently is like financialized in games, with earning component

putting dollar amounts tradability to different assets.

You do kind of tarnish the fun factor or so far.

So I guess I come down on both sides of this one where I think

they're doing it probably for nefarious, various is the wrong

word. They're doing it, not altruistically.

per se. Yeah, I think they're probably right in their

assessment of things.

Yeah, I think you're spot on on the first part, Jeff, like the

whole incentives thing has always been my, you know, my

rallying cry against web three games in general, right. Like,

that's just, you create incentives that take away from

the fun, the actual fun of the game. And people start to focus

on, you know, other things that the reality is have nothing to

do with fun. So, you know, Mojang has this interesting sort

of past. And, you know, without sort of diving too deep into it,

they really have been a company, up until maybe more recently,

that was very, very much focused on their player base and fun and

trying to deliver what their player base wants, right? Like,

this is not out of the ordinary in terms of like, messaging from

them. I saw like, even though you say they're not doing this

altruistically, I think it's in line with the culture at Mojang,

slash Minecraft, right? It's slash Microsoft even all

extended to that, right. Like, there is, I think a culture that

understands gaming within Microsoft may be better than any

of the big tech companies. And and because they understand that

culture better.

And the gaming sort of ecosystem better. This to me, is evidence

of that and they're coming out and they don't want to alienate

anyone in their player base. Right. And so I think it's, it's

an interesting stand, I think they're going to history is

going to prove them right on this one. Because until someone

has figured out why gamers should care about NF, t's beyond

just making money in games, right? Why it makes the game

more fun.

Everyone's just wasting their time sort of thing, right? And

so I liked the stance they took its measured, right, we're

banning it for now, because it doesn't make the game any more

fun. And we think it creates

things that make the game less fun, in fact,

or situations essentially. And but we're gonna keep watching

it, right? They didn't rule it out. And they it's literally in

the statement, but they're gonna keep an eye on it. And so I

think that's about as good as we can expect from a company that's

big. And a game mistake. And I give them I maybe I'm not take

like, I'm, my view is much less cynical on this specifically.

Yes, they're protecting their their ecosystem, but like, if

tomorrow they opened it up to a zillion NF T's I don't think

like anyone would stop playing Minecraft, you know what I mean?

Like, Minecraft would be just as popular as it is today. So I

don't see too much risk, if, you know because first of all, to

open it up just to finish on this point, like

Roblox would also have to open up to let me take my, you know,

diamond x from Minecraft and use it somehow in Roblox.

And that's

really decide, but Will that ever possible between those two

games specific?

No. I mean, it says

conversation. But yeah, that's such a longer line, because I

guess short term long term, like, will we see consolidation?

Well, we see technologies that allow interoperability, despite

what the developers want, right? Like, there may be ways to

tunnel the walled gardens essentially right things like

that. So we'll see. But like, as it stands with current

technology and current sort of

the way the companies are structured today No, I don't

lose no incentive to and the gamers aren't like demanding it

no one's like there's just not 50 million kids going please let

me use my Diamond Axe and Roblox right this just doesn't exist.

So

anyways, I just want to bring up the second part of this story,

which is, let me read this headline epic won't ban NF T

games in response to Minecraft stance, Tim Sweeney says, and

the sub headline here says stores and operating system

makers shouldn't interfere by forcing their views onto others.

So Tim Sweeney forever the Crusader

in response to Minecraft, saying, you know, we're gonna

ban essentially NF T's from our games for now.

Came out and reminded everyone that Epic is not banning NF T's

which is not new because he has said this before, but he took

the

took the opportunity to say it again and added that it's wrong.

I guess he used this word to interfere in how developers make

their games.

What do you think of Tim Sweeney's comments here? I mean,

he never misses an opportunity to play the defender of the

common man common gamer if you will. So yeah, good on him

again. It's like they have a great PR team anytime there's a

story like this. It's like immediately like a quote comes

out like we are

Just banning nfts decision that we made set up months ago, and

still doing it. It's just wrong.

Okay. But having said that smart and they are the challenger

brand, Challenger platform, they they're losing on most fronts at

this debate for whether how successful they are how much of

a failure the epic game store has been. But regardless if we

disagree on how much of a failure or where they are in

that process, if they are clearly the challenger brand,

they're clearly the hunter versus the other. So it's smart

on them to try to find that angle, right. This is the one

maybe part of steams armor that has like a GenCon. You know,

like, if we get to a point where people want to actually play

what three games, and they can't play them on Steam.

epic game store has a massive opportunity there. So I still

made them. That's the key question is just like, when do

we get to that point where people actually want to play

with their games and epic game store becomes the place to do

it. I don't think we're there yet. I remember we talked a few

episodes back, there was a game launch. I can't even now

remember which one it was. But I remember we debated whether it

would be kind of a big moment for the epic game store and for

web three gaming. Given that I can't even remember the name of

the game. I'm guessing it was not a real supernova moment.

You remember?

Watching but I can't even remember now what?

That's

I don't I don't get Tim Sweeney, right. Like, I don't.

I don't I don't really understand

why he has taken on this fight. Right? Like, he's got a totally

dominant game in its genre by in fortnight, or at least a cash

cow. You know, it's not totally done, but it's a cash cow. He

has an engine that has 50% of the market share, right? Like,

I've never understood why he takes on these crusades, because

it doesn't move his business forward in any way today. And so

your argument, I think, is a good one. And I think it's the

art of the argument.

But it has the most validity, right, which is he's making

these arguments today, because he thinks at some point in the

future, all of this catches on, right. And, and Epic Games will

be the only one left standing right, everyone will be years

behind because he saw the future first.

And, and I think he couldn't be any more wrong. I think he

couldn't be any more wrong. What what when I see these articles,

what I truly believe, is Tim Sweeney has become so far

removed from actually making games, that he doesn't really

know what a fun game is anymore. Right? And if you just look at

his Twitter feed

98% of it is him talking about highly technical programming

related things, right? Like, oh, you know, in Objective C, using

an array is less efficient than using like you don't like this

kind of, like hardcore programmer stuff. And then the

rest is his crusade against that bowl against valve against like,

literally anyone who has taken maybe a more measured approach

to this. It's his crusade or his like, highly technical stuff.

And I really am starting to believe that he's not really, he

doesn't really care about making games anymore. And he's not

really in the business of making things anymore himself. Right.

That's just not part of what he sees as his responsibility as

CEO of epic, which makes me very concerned because as a games

company, if the CEO doesn't care about the games you make this is

this is the start of a big downward slide. You can

reference Activision Blizzard as the perfect proof of this.

And so the scenario I see more likely to play out. And I've

said this before, I think is

epic is going to publish some web three game that is complete

garbage. And it's not garbage. It's like it's a scam. It's some

Chinese scam of some kind. And some kid in Utah is going to is

going to lose, you know, $2,000 of his parents money. And it's

going to be front page news on the Washington Post. And it will

tarnish web three games and set them back a year or two at least

right and totally setback epic. They'll have to issue an

apology. They'll have to say we're doing more moderation and

curation. You know that they'll have to backpedal all of this,

all of the big statements he's making like we're never going to

tell developers what to do. Right like, Okay, well I'm gonna

put up a

When three scam game, and then you can't tell me what to do

like, okay, and he's just gonna look silly, like I don't see how

this ends other than them looking silly. And and people

getting hurt as a consequence of,

of religious arguments is what I see here. It's not measured it's

not really logical. It's just become religion for him. Do you

think so? So I, I like your prognostication, I think I

actually tend to like that is a decent like scenario, not the

specifics that you detail, but I think that outcome is possible.

If they're not doing the content moderation. They're not there

just allowing anything on there. I don't obviously know whether

that's the case or not. They need some moderation. But do you

think that the core of the strategy, if it's not driven by

this sort of ideological zeal, is it a good strategy to say,

hey, we're the challenger. This could be the next big thing. Our

competitors have shunned it. Let's give it let's give it a

chance. You know, it could be it could be the thing that bolts us

into competition. If I was a 50, person startup, right? The

contrarian strategy here makes total sense. Because the

downsides very small. And the upsides massive if I'm the only

one that's right, right, the problem is epic is not a 50

person startup, the downside for them is very large. It's 10s of

billions of dollars, right? Like, there is a huge amount of

downside. So like, maybe in his head, there's still that 20

person startup and there if I'm him, I would do the exact same

thing, even if I didn't believe it, just because the the you

know, the the risk reward math works in my favor. Right. So on

the 10% chance, I'm right, there's a ton of upside on the

90% chance I'm wrong. What do I lose like my rinky dink startup?

Okay.

And so, you know, it's, your point is a fantastic one. I just

think not, in the case of a company as big and valued

valuable as Epic Games. I mean, there's just they're not,

they're not a startup.

Make sense?

Let's talk about two companies that are definitely not startups

call it going after each other in the metaverse space here. And

this was Zuckerberg so we're, you know, big CEOs making big

comments this week, I guess is the theme. Something Zuckerberg

says Mehta and Apple are in very deep philosophical competition.

That's a direct quote, to build the metaverse. So he says this

is a competition of philosophies and ideas, is what he told

employees recently, and I'll just read the quote, he says

this is a competition of philosophies and ideas, where

they believe they as an apple, that by doing everything

themselves and tightly integrating, that they build a

better consumer experience, Zuckerberg said of the brooding

rivalry, and we believe that there's a lot to be done in

specialization across different companies, and that will allow a

much larger ecosystem to exist. He said that Mehta will position

itself as the more open, cheaper alternative to Apple, which is

expected to announce their first AR headset as soon as later this

year.

Sidenote, it's also mentioned in the article, they helped

medihelp stair stand up the metaverse open standards group,

with Microsoft epic and others. So

what do you think of this, like deep philosophical differences?

Sort of?

I agree. I mean, Apple has always been famously like the

closed platform. And on mobile, Android, you know, has always

been the open platform. So I think Zuckerberg is saying,

okay, for VR, we're going to be that open platform, Android of

the metaverse, Android VR, and Apple presumably will keep their

their walled garden type approach. It's interesting to me

because I feel like we always complain about Facebook or metta

kind of trying to be the one company that rules the

metaverse. Like, I don't often hear that. When people describe

the metaverse Well, it's not just going to be Facebook owning

it, like, almost like there's a lot of disdain towards

Facebook's approach. Because I think Facebook by the name

change, just being so vocal about it, people have this

perception that that is what they're trying to do. They're

trying to like own the whole ecosystem. So it's interesting

to see Zuckerberg like kind of smart almost like, smartly say,

Hey, that's not what we're trying to do. We're trying to be

like an open platform. Apple's the real you know, the real bad

guy here that's trying to like own everything. So there I

didn't get this. It's a smart, like savvy wait for me frame.

Fast forward like five, maybe 10 years, even Jeff, like, Who do

you think? Like, what do you think, is the positioning

between these two companies five years from today? Like, what

does that relationship look like? And how are they? How are

they

The difference are similar.

From a Metaverse strategy, obviously, it's a good question.

I think I probably have more comment. I was gonna say I have

more confidence in Apple just in their ability to build hardware,

their ability to coax developers onto their platform.

Having said that meta head in the VR hardware sets, and I know

you, you've talked on prior episodes about how Oculus is

really the Trojan horse, if you will, for the for the metaverse

for meta. So I don't know, I don't have a ton of conviction,

honestly, curious to hear your thoughts, actually.

You know, Apple is notoriously good at waiting for someone else

to pioneer something, and then making it better and more

expensive and more profitable.

You know?

So, you know, in that sense, I don't think I don't discount

Apple, right? Even if it's a closed ecosystem. And I've said

many times, the true capital and Metaverse will need to be

interoperable and things like that. But, you know,

Apple has a billion people who will buy just about anything

they put out, right, like there's a base there that is so

deep in their ecosystem. And the ability to prime a pump with

that many people that many users is a superpower that I think

only Apple has today.

I think five years from now, we'll still talk me talking

about these two going head to head I know that's kind of a non

answer. But I think both will exist. And we'll still be

discussing sort of how they're figuring out how to coexist.

In the same way, you know, it would be awesome if we could use

iMessage across Apple and Android. How many? How many

times do you hear people complain about that? That hasn't

been solved yet so much simpler problem to solve.

But from a user perspective, right, we'd all love it to be

solved. And I think we'll be complaining about this five

years from now that you know, I've got assets in this room in

the Apple Metaverse, and I've got assets in the Facebook

Metaverse and like, you know, how nice would it be if I could

just hang out with my friends who are on the you know, the

Apple Metaverse is saying this. I think the reality is five

years is not a long enough time period for those things to sort

themselves out. You asked me 20 years, I think there will be

there. The reality is these things will be solved. But in

the shorter term, I think you're just going to have these

competitive viewpoints existing

concurrently.

Jeff, I don't know if you have any other thoughts on that. But

that

That wraps up this week's show, but I feel like that flew by I

know. As always a blast. And as always, I just want to thank our

listeners who tune in every week remind them make sure you

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that. And if you love the juice, go follow him Jeff Cohen 23 And

go check out the live stream that Jeff and I do every single

Wednesday 2:30pm Eastern time. It's a lot of fun. We cover

gaming stuff more broadly. Not that web three and Metaverse

specifically, but gaming stuff more broadly. So go check that

out. And as always, guys, don't forget the most important thing.

The future is fun. We'll see you next week. Thanks for joining us

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