The focus of this podcast episode revolves around the profound insights gleaned from the Book of Proverbs, particularly in relation to the themes of wisdom and leadership. We are privileged to engage once again with our esteemed guest, Dr. Stephen Blandino, who highlights the indispensable role of wisdom in cultivating effective leadership. Throughout our time together, we explore critical aspects of skillful living, emphasizing the necessity for leaders to initiate their endeavors with a foundation in divine guidance, as articulated in the initial verses of Proverbs. Furthermore, we delve into the significance of our words as leaders, examining their potential for both constructive influence and destructive repercussions. Ultimately, this episode serves as a clarion call for leaders to embrace the principles of wisdom, thereby fostering an environment of integrity and effectiveness in their respective domains.

Takeaways:

• In the realm of leadership, the foundational principle espoused in Proverbs is that wise leaders invariably commence their journey by acknowledging and submitting to God, thereby aligning their actions with divine wisdom.
• The essence of skillful living, as articulated in Proverbs, transcends mere knowledge acquisition; it necessitates the application of that knowledge in practical, everyday scenarios, thus transforming it into genuine wisdom.
• Jealousy, fear, and anger are potent emotions that leaders must navigate judiciously, as Proverbs warns that yielding to these feelings can lead to detrimental outcomes for both the leader and their community.
• Proverbs emphasizes the significance of cultivating relationships with wise individuals, as such companionship fosters personal growth, promotes accountability, and enhances one's capacity for sound decision-making.
• In addressing financial stewardship, Proverbs offers a dual perspective that advocates for diligent labor while simultaneously cautioning against the perils of excessive ambition and greed, thus promoting a balanced approach to wealth.
• The overarching message of Proverbs is that wisdom is not a static attribute, but rather a dynamic journey that invites individuals, regardless of age, to remain teachable and receptive to learning throughout their lives.

Hey there and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.

This podcast is all about providing clarity insight and encouragement for life conditioning.

And my name is Eric Sandmeyer and I get to be your host.

Today we have the phenomenal opportunity to.

Have with us back on the podcast our most frequent guest pastor, author, speaker, leadership guru, Stephen Blandino.

And we get to sit down and learn from him this time on wisdom and leadership and and specifically looking at the book of Proverbs.

I ask him questions about skillful living, questions about what it means to cultivate our words as a leader and the impact of those, the impact of pride on leadership, all based on his writings out of Proverbs.

And just love having Stephen with us on the podcast and it's been a joy.

Do want to ask you also to continue to send in your questions for Back Channel with Foe.

That's where we get to sit down with Dick Foth and get to learn from him.

He's been on the podcast part of it for the last six years and it's been a great journey and grateful and thankful for Predict with his investment.

I also ask you to subscribe.

I know the podcasts I subscribe to are the ones I listen to.

They show up on my feed every Tuesday and I know what I'm going to be listening to throughout the week and just want to thank many of you.

There's almost 2,000 people that listen into the podcast every week and it's such a blessing to have that many people engaging, listening in and so, so grateful and thankful for each of you.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started, so here we go.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.

So excited to be here with the most frequent guest ever on The Clarity podcast, Dr. Steven Blandino.

Steven, welcome back to the podcast.

Hey, great to be with you, Erin.

And fun to hang out again.

Yeah, for sure.

Stephen, for those who have not listened to you before or read some of your books or read your articles in Influence magazine or been to your church or many other hats that you wear, will you share a little bit about yourself before I start asking you some questions about the wisdom we find in Proverbs?

Yeah, live in Fort Worth, Texas with my wife.

We have a daughter, a son in law, two awesome grandsons and pastor seven city church right outside of downtown Fort Worth and then do some writing and leadership coaching and Also lead the field team for Church Multiplication Network for urban pastors.

And so, yeah, there's always something to do.

It sounds like you're not letting.

You're not sitting still.

So I called Stephen doctor.

He's soon to be doctor.

And so I'm excited, excited for him for that too.

So I know that the amount of work that goes into that process.

So it's good to be done and be able to read again for fun.

That's what I always.

I felt like I could not read for fun while I was in my doctoral studies.

But when you get to the other side of it, you can read for fun again.

So a big amen to that.

Thank you.

For sure.

So, Stephen, today we're going to talk about the wisdom we find in Proverbs, specifically as it applies to leadership.

So first question I got for you.

How does Proverbs help us begin as a wise leader?

Well, I love the opening verse, or, excuse me, the opening chapter of Proverbs, verse 7.

I love the way the message captures this verse.

It says, start with God.

The first step in learning is bowing down to God.

Only fools thumb their noses at such wisdom and learning.

So when I apply that passage to leadership, I think of two things.

First, I think that wise leaders start with God.

And second, wise leaders submit to God, unfortunately, in leadership, because we operate at such a fast pace, unfortunately, sometimes leaders can end with God instead of start with God.

It's like we try everything else first, every tool, every tactic we can.

And then we come to the realization that, wait a minute, I need God's help.

This.

And so rather than reverting to God as our last resort, wise leaders start with God and then they also submit to God.

Whenever Solomon said the first step in learning is bowing down to God, you just see this idea of recognizing that without God, I'm nothing and I can do nothing that's going to have anything significance.

So true learning isn't just acquiring knowledge, it's submitting to it.

It's.

It's being shaped by it as long as that knowledge is coming from God.

So, yeah, leaders that are wise start with God.

They submit to God.

Wow.

And.

And two catchable things I think that we can all apply in our lives.

And yeah, good stuff.

I could.

I won't.

I was going to ask you two different questions.

I won't do that to you, Stephen.

So, all right, so here we go.

So when it comes, what do a wise leader?

Because I think sometimes that can mean many things to different people.

So when you think of A wise leader.

What do you mean by that?

And how does Proverbs.

God is in that.

Yeah, this can.

Boy, this can.

This can be a pretty deep hole.

Let me.

Let me start kind of the macro level, like in framing it with proverbs.

Like proverbs is chock full of principles that are wise principles for how we should live and lead.

But what makes those principles wisdom for us personally is if we actually practice them, if we put them into practice and we begin living them out, because that's where you have the transition from knowledge to wisdom.

And so let me maybe dig into this a little bit deeper in terms of what wisdom actually is.

The Hebrew word translated wisdom is hokma.

And it usually, and I may be saying that wrong, so for the Hebrew scholars out there, my apologies, okay?

But it.

But it usually refers to some kind of skill or ability.

So for example, in Exodus 28, wisdom was used to describe the work of weavers as they made the garments according to God's design.

For Aaron, the high priest, another place we see it is in creation.

Whenever God created the heavens and the earth, Proverbs 3:19 says, by wisdom, the Lord laid the earth's foundations.

By understanding, he set the heavens in place.

So using construction terms, Solomon paints this picture of creation in which God is the architect, but wisdom is the builder.

So the architect, which is God, designed the blueprints for the universe, but then it was his wisdom that built the universe according to those blueprints.

So with that foundation kind of in place, wisdom is really the skill of building our lives according to God's design.

That's where we realize that wisdom isn't just knowledge of God's design.

Right.

Lots of people have knowledge of God's design.

Granted, lots of people don't as well.

Right.

But many people may have knowledge of God's design, but the wise person is the one who actually builds according to that.

So at its very core, wisdom is skillful living.

Wisdom for leaders is skillful living and skillful leading.

It's taking the knowledge and actually turning it into practice.

So kind of what I said a moment ago that in Proverbs we see principles of wise leadership, but really what translates that into wisdom for us personally is when we take the principle and we turn it into practice.

Good word.

Good word.

And Steven, you kind of led into my next question for you.

You share that in Proverbs, it reveals God's design for skillful living.

So what does that skillful living look like?

Could you share more about that part of it?

Yeah, I Mean, it's first, it's making yourself, you know, being aware of what the blueprint is.

Right.

What the design is.

So, for example, we went through a building renovation a few years ago at Seven City Church.

Well, our architect created the blueprint and the general contractor built from that blueprint.

Right.

So it's almost like the architect had the knowledge, had the design, but the general contractor, if they didn't build according to that design, they would not have been exercising wisdom if they just said, hey, put a plug there and yeah, we can just run those wires over there.

And yeah, I'm sure, you know, design the sprinkler system however you want.

I'm sure as long as water comes out, it'll be fine.

Right.

That.

That's obviously not wisdom.

Wisdom is whenever they're actually doing what the blueprint says to do.

So for leaders, I think as you look at Proverbs, man, there's all kinds of insight, and I know we're going to get into this a little more here in a moment, but there's all kinds of insight about what the blueprint looks like.

So I would just say if you want to be a wise leader, familiarize yourself with the blueprint and then start leading and living according to that blueprint, which was not defined by you and I, it was defined by God.

And when we do that, that's where wisdom really comes into play in our lives and leadership for sure.

And Stephen, it sounds so logical.

At the same time, we know leaders that don't necessarily go by the blueprint or they, you know, you.

Sometimes leaders end with God rather than start with God.

So with that, and you talked about the roles you play in CMN and what are some.

What's one thing you've seen, maybe a reason or an idea where somebody, a leader, Christian leader, starts going off on not by the blueprint, but kind of creates their kind of own way.

And I chuckled when you said, you know, put the sprinklers, just make the water come out where.

However you want.

Right.

You know, when you put it in those terms, you think, well, that's.

He wouldn't do that.

Right.

But sometimes in our lives as leaders, we do, you know, we do similar things.

So one or two things.

Do you think some reasons maybe people make the choice not to follow this Proverbs recommendation for skillshare?

I think sometimes it comes down to our own insecurities.

Okay.

So if we feel like.

If we feel like we're not delivering at the level that we should and other people are beginning to Recognize that our insecurities can kick in where we start reacting in a way that's not healthy.

And for example, Proverbs talks about how a gentle answer is so important instead of a harsh answer.

And there's wisdom in that gentle answer.

Well, whenever you feel threatened, when your insecurities start getting the best of you, you're probably not the most gentle leader in that moment, you tend to overreact, over respond, your emotions get the best of you because suddenly you feel threatened that you're going exposed rather than just admitting, yeah, that's not, that's not my strength, or you know what, I didn't make the best decision there.

Or just being upfront and honest about your shortcomings and your failures.

When we fail to admit our failures, we tend to dig a deeper hole for ourselves.

And so then our lack of wisdom is just being revealed even more so.

And sometimes in neon signs.

And so it ends up being up there.

So one of the other things you shared about was Solomon and a few of the characteristics that Solomon himself, he had for following the path of wisdom and leadership.

So how does Solomon speak to this?

Yeah, in Proverbs, chapter four, I'll read a couple of the verses just to set this up, but verse 18 and 19, it says the ways of right living people glow with light.

The longer they live, the brighter they shine.

But the road of wrongdoing gets darker and darker.

Travelers can't see a thing, they fall flat on their faces.

So kind of, kind of get the picture here that when you're on the right road, the longer you're on that right road, it just gets brighter and brighter and brighter the longer you go.

That doesn't mean you don't have problems or face hardships.

But there's something about being on the right road where there is, you know, you're doing, doing the right thing, you're moving the right direction.

It gets brighter and brighter with God's faithfulness, God's goodness, the recognition that God is in control, that he can be trusted.

But the longer you're on a dark road, it just gets darker and darker and darker and darker, right?

Things get worse and worse and worse.

Well, after Solomon shares this in the verses that follow, he gives some characteristics that I think really mark the path of wisdom.

They mark the bright road rather than the dark road.

So the first thing he says is to listen to the wise.

In verse 22, I believe it is he said, my son, pay attention to what I say.

Turn your ear to my words.

And so leaders, let's Just be honest.

We have a bent toward talking.

We like to, you know, we enjoy listening to our own voice.

But wise leaders, they assume a posture of listening.

They understand that I can't learn if I'm not listening.

So they start by listening to the wise.

That's part of the bright path.

A second thing is they guard their heart.

Verse 23 in Proverbs 4, Solomon said, above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.

So here's the truth.

The condition of your heart determines the condition of your life.

And it may take a while for it to show up.

We might hide it for a little while, but eventually what's in the heart will be exposed.

So if we're going to stay on the bright path, am I listening to the wise?

Am I guarding my heart?

A third one is, am I watching my words?

Verse 24 says, Keep your mouth free of perversity.

And I love the way.

Hal Donaldson, I may have shared this on another episode, how he described words.

He said words, they're either weapons or welcome mats, right?

A weapon is destructive.

A welcome mat says, you're welcome here.

Right?

You're not going to be turned away.

And so wise leaders, they watched their words and I might add, and they watched their words on social media, Right.

So let's be careful there.

He also talks about, like fixing your eyes on the right path.

He talks about avoiding distractions.

You know, he says, don't turn to the right or the left.

So you just have this idea that aman the bright path.

And I'm going to stay on the bright path.

I'm not going to be distracted from it, pulled away from it.

So I just think those are some of the insights we see in Proverbs 4 from Solomon and the characteristics that as leaders, they profoundly impact our long term health and direction as leaders and whatever it is God's entrusted us to lead.

Yeah, for sure.

Stephen, you mentioned wise words.

I was going to ask you a question about that.

Do you have any other thoughts on how to cultivate this dimension of using wise words or.

Yeah.

Any more than that?

You know, there's a number of themes you see in Proverbs.

I love Proverbs.

And of course every one of them, there's just.

It just drips with this insight and this wisdom.

But it seems like there's certain themes that come up repeatedly and I think one of them has to do with the words we speak and how we speak.

So when I think about the words that we want to cultivate as leaders, there's three descriptors I would use, and that is that Proverbs addresses the substance of your words, the sound of your words, and the significance of your words.

So substance is obviously all about what you actually say.

So are your words, are the substance of your words life giving.

And then sound is how you say your words, is how you come across to others.

The passage I mentioned just a Moment ago, Proverbs 15:1 1, a gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

So is the sound of your words, is how you say them also life giving?

And then the last one is significance.

We see throughout Proverbs this idea that our words have weight.

So when a leader speaks wisely, when they choose their words carefully, they bring healing, or if they choose not to, then they hurt.

So that's the substance of my words, the sound of my words, the significance or the weight of my words are those really solid.

And again, I love the way the message Scripture describes this.

It says, the message says words kill, words give life.

They're either poison or fruit.

You choose.

It's like it just puts it right in your lap.

It's up to you.

Your words can be poison or your words can be life, but at the end of the day, it's your choice.

And so if we watch the substance and sound and significance of our words, they can be pretty, pretty critical in the impact they have, for sure.

And I think the other thing I'm learning more and more as a leader, when you become a leader, you lose the freedom to speak freely.

And I think that goes to the wisdom of words.

And I think sometimes leaders feel like, hey, I'm just going to speak freely here and tell you what I think.

Well, you know, as a leader, you give up that ability to publicly speak freely because it's, as you said, all three things, the substance of significance.

It has greater impact.

And we lose that, lose that ability just to, you know, say what we want to say, whenever we want to say it, however we want to say it to whoever, whoever you want to say it to.

So, you know, I was talking to someone just a few weeks ago, Aaron, that they, they had been in ministry for, for a good while, and someone they had respected so much that they had served with or served under in some capacity years earlier.

They had just kind of lost wisdom whenever it came to the things that they said online.

And they suddenly felt like, is that really how they feel?

And it caused what they had.

It caused the influence that they had built and the impact that they had had to suddenly be discredited because they were not exercising wisdom in how they were saying what they were saying.

And the things they were saying were kind of politically charged.

So it made it even.

Even stronger, even worse.

And I just think, as leaders, man, recognize that what you say can very quickly undermine a lifetime of work because you're not.

Because you're just not using wisdom.

Yeah, yeah.

Good words.

Good words.

And the other.

One of the other things, when you wrote about this, I thought it was super impactful and very interesting to me, at least in my current season of life.

So how does Proverbs speak to the emotions of being a leader and just the emotional.

The emotional impact we have on others and then our emotions as we lead?

Yeah, man, this is so important.

Let's just be honest.

Leadership's an emotional sport.

Right?

I mean, there's so many ups and downs.

There's victories, there's disappointments, there's joy, there's strain, there's hardship, there's celebration.

And the crazy thing is, you know this, Aaron, it can all happen in the same day.

Sure.

Same hour sometimes.

Yeah, the same hour.

That's right.

I mean, you're.

One minute you're grieving with a family, and the next, you're trying to celebrate someone because of something that great that happened.

And so there's a bit of emotional whiplash that you experience as a leader.

And if you don't learn to manage that, you could.

You could pretty quickly react to some things that, again, hurt people and hurt.

Hurt yourself.

So.

So I think some of the emotions that Proverbs addresses, and there's more than these, but I think three of the big ones that leaders really have to wrestle with is jealousy, fear and anger.

With jealousy.

Proverbs 27:4 says, Anger is cruel and wrath is like a flood.

But jealousy is even more dangerous.

Think about that for a minute.

Minute.

Anger is cruel.

Yeah.

We know that wrath is like a flood.

Well, if you watch the news and you see a flood, you see how devastating the flood can be.

But.

But the proverb wraps up by saying, but jealousy is even more dangerous.

So, you know, guarding your heart from that is so critical because in leadership, there's always someone who's going to be further than you, farther than you, faster than you.

And if you.

You're if you're not careful, if you don't guard your heart, that.

That jealousy will begin to take root.

That's one reason I keep a gratitude journal.

It's not the only reason, but it is one that helps to mitigate jealousy.

It just forces me to stop and pause and be grateful for what God has and is doing in my own life.

Another one is fear.

So in leadership, it.

You have to exercise courage, bravery, especially when you're stepping into a new vision for the future.

And fear can hold you back.

And so the good news is it also gives us the cure.

It says, but trusting the Lord means safety.

So think about that for a moment.

When you are called upon to have courage, you don't feel safe.

Yeah, you feel exposed.

Right?

You feel, man, is this.

Yeah.

Is this all going to fall apart on me?

And yet, and yet the, the.

The Proverbs writer says that trusting the Lord means safety.

So when we can face our fears with trust in God, suddenly we find the safe place that we long for because we know who's with us in this step of courage that we're having to take.

You know the other emotion, anger.

Boy, in leadership, people can push your buttons.

They can say things, do things that just make you want to again lose your cool.

Boy, if we could take.

If we could take those emotions, jealousy, fear, anger, submit them before the Lord.

Proverbs gives us the wisdom on the danger associated with them.

But if we can guard our hearts and manage it, we can go so much further.

Yeah.

One of the things I'm learning in this season is not to take flattery nor criticism from somebody I wouldn't go to for advice.

And I think it speaks to those emotions, right?

Because really, flattery is advice.

Hey, you're doing a great job.

Continue to do it.

Criticism is, hey, it's advice.

Advice.

You know, you're.

You're doing it wrong.

You should do it that way.

But just, you know, in this season of life, you know, if somebody says, I'm doing a great job, do I take it to heart?

Well, if I wouldn't have went to them for advice, and that's, I think we could say, as a leader, that's a small handful of people.

We don't have 50 people you're going to for advice, or we'd be all over the map.

But it's just, it's.

And it's helped me in my emotions to kind of stay more consistent rather than the, you know, the shark tooth or saw blade kind of thing.

Ups and downs, ups and downs.

It helps give me some steadiness in that and not be too, too over the map with, with the anger when it's criticism, maybe, or it's, you know, I mean, it just depends on the day and how you receive it.

So.

Sure, yeah.

Good stuff, good stuff.

You mentioned pride also, and the.

The role that pride can play is a leader and how Proverbs speaks to that.

So what?

And you mentioned three ways that pride can impact us as a leader.

Would you share those for Stephen?

Yeah, pride, it impacts us upwardly, outwardly and inwardly.

So I'll unpack that.

You know, upwardly is it pride repulses God.

That word detests.

That's a pretty strong word.

And I think God detests pride.

I mean, there's obviously multiple reasons, but what I think about is that pride, I mean, it's sin.

So pride not only separates us from God, but it substitutes us for God.

Meaning we kind of make ourselves into a God when pride gets.

Gets in the way.

Tim Keller said it like this.

He said pride is being your own supreme being and that that's where pride leads.

So, so upwardly, it repulses God.

Outwardly, pride, it ravages relationships.

It basically says, I'm better than you.

I'm more important than you.

I know more than you.

You're wrong.

I'm right.

And let's just be honest.

Pride is people repellent.

None of us enj really arrogant people.

We just.

We just don't.

We may not tell them that we're, you know, disgusted by it, but we, we, we are.

And we have to remind ourselves the same is true for us.

If that's the way we act it.

It ravages the relationships around us.

Yeah, so.

So think about that.

If there is strife somewhere, the root of it, the underlying for pride.

Yeah.

Wow.

People repellent.

I'll remember that.

Yeah, yeah.

And then it also inwardly, it.

Pride ruins us.

Right.

Pride goes before the before destruction.

You know, thinking about this just something.

I'll read this real quick.

This.

I read this years ago.

It comes from James Coos's and Barry Posner, who both work in higher education and done tremendous amount of research on leadership.

They wrote the Leadership Challenge many years ago and multiple revisions of that have come out.

But they said something in their book A Leader's Legacy that I just really have always appreciated and I'm just going to read this to you, Aaron.

It says the word human and humble share a common origin.

They both come from the Latin humus, meaning earth.

To be human and humble is to be down to earth, both feet planted firmly on the ground.

Interesting, isn't it, how as people climb the ranks and organizations, they also climb to a higher floor in the building, getting farther and farther away from the ground.

It gets harder and harder to remain humble the higher up you go.

Wow.

Ah, that's a powerful, that's a powerful quote, powerful quote for all of us.

And, and I think the, you know the, when you lead more and more, you further from people telling you the truth too.

And when people tell you the truth, it does help keep you on the ground.

But it's, it's harder and harder to get that, get the feedback that, that you want to grow as a leader.

And Stephen, got two more questions for you.

So second to last question.

You talk about walking with the wise.

So what does that mean?

What do you necessarily mean by that?

And how can walking with the wise, how can that impact our leadership?

Sure, sure.

Walk with the wise and become wise.

Right.

Companion of fools suffers harm.

So this is where like leaders, we need, and we know this, we need mentors, we need coaches, we need just wise friends in our lives.

And what I, what I like about that verse is if you break it down that, that first part, walk with the wise.

Think about the first two words.

Walk with.

That implies three things.

It implies friendship.

Because if you're walking with, it means you're not taking the journey alone.

There's somebody with you, whether it's a coach, a mentor, a close friend, family member, whoever.

Right.

So it implies there's some kind of friendship relationship.

It also implies frequency.

Walking doesn't mean a one time stroll through the park, right?

It's, it's frequent walks throughout life.

It's this idea of journeying with someone, not just a one time walk.

And then the third word I think of is forward, right?

If you're walking with, then you're, you're in motion, ocean, you're moving from point A to point B.

So to walk with the wise, there's a friendship there, there's a frequency there, there's a forward movement that's taking place.

And again, you're walking with the wise.

So when you think about the wise, you know who are the wise?

Well, as you read through Proverbs, you discover that that wise people, they have several qualities that they model.

They're humble, they're moral, they're learners, they're diligent in their work, they listen carefully, they lead honorably.

These are qualities, these are characters.

So if I can be frequently moving forward with these types of friends, I too will become wise.

Otherwise, as Paul said in, you know, First Corinthians, bad company corrupts good character.

Yeah, for sure.

So relationships are like, they're just so, so critical.

We.

We all know that.

But boy, they get squeezed, squeezed out of life so much because of our pace.

Yeah.

And.

And that is another.

Another reality of leadership is that and the invitation, you know, inviting people into our lives and rather than pushing them out and moving on, I think it just takes a ton of intentionality.

Stephen, last question I have for you is you share about how Proverbs speaks to finances and money and gives us wisdom in that account.

What are some reason that you included that in your writings that it's so important for leaders when it comes to finances and money and to get our wisdom from Proverbs?

Sure.

We see this addressed throughout the book.

And, you know, one of the things I think Proverbs does is it centers us with different perspective.

And money is one of those things.

It provides perspective on.

The righteous will thrive like a green leaf.

So, you know, money, our view of money, our perspective of money takes on a spiritual angle perspective whenever we're anchored in the wisdom of Proverbs, not just how we view money, but also the pace at which we earn it.

I thought this was interesting in Proverbs is that it addresses both sides of our pace with money, if you will.

So one side of our pace with earning money is we're going to work hard and I'm not going to be lazy.

Right.

So Proverbs 10:4 4 addresses that.

He says, lazy hands make for poverty, but diligent hands bring wealth.

So we say, okay, I'm gonna.

I'm gonna be diligent.

But then there's the.

The other side, because Proverbs 23:4 says, do not wear yourself out to get rich.

Right.

Do not trust your own cleverness.

So.

So it's like there's this balance where Proverbs speaks to it and says, hey, like, you gotta work hard, but you can't wear yourself out trying to get rich.

That's, that's a, you know, that's not a healthy pursuit.

So there's this healthy space in the middle.

It also talks about how we steward money.

You know, it's just dishonest.

Money dwindles away.

So making sure we're being wise and honest and full of integrity.

And of course, it speaks to generosity as well when it talks about honoring the Lord with your wealth.

So, yeah, Proverbs gives us some good wisdom just on money overall.

Yeah.

And as leaders, it's, you know, it's one of the things, when you have authority in general, you are influencing how money spent, how money's used very much.

And you know, and it's one of the, it's one of the things that, that can, can cause challenges in leaders lives.

So I really appreciate the, the focus on the importance of it and how we navigate it.

And you know, I, yeah, it's, it's super important.

Stephen, what I said I was going to, I wasn't going to ask you another question, but obviously you did all this writing on Proverbs.

Was there a question that I should have asked you or any, any kind of closing thoughts that you would have when it comes to Proverbs?

Wisdom that provides for leader or maybe you think, yeah, Aaron, you probably should ask me this and you forgot to ask.

No, that's okay.

You know, again, if you come back to Proverbs 1, the way those first few verses set up the book of Proverbs, one thing I thought that was a great reminder is the, the wisdom of Proverbs, that it's for both the young and the old.

So, you know, in Proverbs 1, again, out of the message in those first few verses, it says that Proverbs is a manual for living, for learning what's right and just and fair.

And then I love this, it says to teach the inexperienced the ropes and give our young people a grasp on reality.

Wow.

And you know, those of us that are older might say, well, amen.

Right.

Well, but don't get too happy because the next part of that says there's something here also for the seasoned men and women still a thing or two for the experienced to learn.

So, you know, I just, I think as I, as I was working through this, I just thought, wow, Proverbs doesn't get old.

Yeah, there's something for the young, there's something for the old.

And the key is just making sure our heart is tender and teachable and pliable, that regardless of what stage of life we're in, Right now, there are some insight and Proverbs that we can apply to our leadership.

And it speaks pretty directly and powerfully to us.

And if we'll just grasp it, take it, run with it, it can have a pretty significant impact.

Yeah, my dad, this struck out to me because my dad, you know, he's been going through Proverbs.

He's, he's about to turn 80.

And so, you know, he's been getting books printed up a Proverbs and handing out to friends and people he comes in contact with.

And as you said, right.

It's, you know, it's, it's for the young.

It's for somebody who's lived 80 years.

There's wisdom in it each and every day.

And just, it's been, it's been, it's been fun for me to watch him in this season of his life, his renewed sins for Proverbs and one to give it out to others and how it's impacted his life.

Life.

So, Stephen, always a joy to have you on the podcast and will you pray for us today?

Absolutely, Father.

Thank you for the day and God, thank you for the wisdom we find throughout your word.

Thank you for the wisdom in proverbs and that it has application for everyday life, that it's not just a blueprint, it's a blueprint to be lived.

So help us, Lord, as leaders, wherever we are, whatever the arena is that we serve in, would you help us to lead wisely, to take these principles and actually put them into practice.

Help us to be skillful at living and skillful at leading, and may it be for your glory in Jesus name, Amen.

Amen.