Jeremy shares his experience of growing up within a strict Lutheran sect, offering a candid look at how faith, identity, and his late AuDHD diagnosis intersected throughout his life. From early moments of doubt at just ten years old to the long process of deconstruction that followed, Jeremy reflects on the challenges of navigating a belief system that often discouraged questioning and individuality. The conversation explores how environments rooted in rigid doctrine can stifle self-expression and perpetuate cycles of shame, while also shedding light on the unique ways neurodivergent experiences shape one’s relationship with faith and community. Jeremy reveals the courage it takes to unlearn deeply ingrained beliefs and reclaim a sense of autonomy, offering listeners a deeply human story of resilience, awareness, and healing.

Who Is Jeremy?

Jeremy Schumacher is a therapist, educator, and coach. Jeremy specialises in couples counselling, religious trauma, and sports performance, bringing warmth, adaptability, and depth to his work. Outside the therapy room, he’s often outdoors with his wife, two boys, and three dogs or happily nerding out about books, music, and the psychology of superheroes.

Connect With Us

• Find out more about Jeremy on his website - https://wellnesswithjer.com/
• You can connect over on Instagram or Youtube
• Tune in to Jeremy's podcast Your Therapist Needs Therapy

• You can find out more about Sam on her website – www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
• To connect with Sam on Instagram – @anchoredcounsellingservices
• Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
• Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective

FOREIGN.

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the surface.

Welcome, Jeremy. Thanks for joining me.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Happy to be here.

Before we kick straight into it, I like to ask for people where in the world you are at the moment, for sure.

I am in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, which is the Midwest of the United States, about hour and a half north of Chicago. I'm here on traditional Ho Chunk, Oneida and Man. But I'm on a lot of traditional land that none of it has been ceded and is all sovereign land.

I'm on the shores of Lake Michigan, which was known as Lake Michigami. And so a lot of different indigenous cultures and heritage here. Heritage is here still to this day.

Beautiful. And before I ask what is always my first question, I feel like with all of my US Guests at the moment, I'm doing a bit of a.

You would know the term welfare check. How on earth are you doing over there?

You know, my passport is up to date just in case. And, you know, it's, it's. We'll get into it. Right. But I'm a therapist as well. I work with religious trauma. It's how we connected.

And so I really struggle with, like, just how far off of reality we are. Yeah, it's. It's like a very maddening thing. As somebody who's worked with high needs folks around mental health issues. We're in health.

Mental health crisis who have broken with reality for mental health reasons, living on sort of a daily. Like why. Why do we have to pretend that this is why we have to pretend this isn't, this isn't accurate. So it's maddening. And also, you know, the.

We're recording earlier than the episode will go up, but the new no Kings rally round two was pretty recent and that's very uplifting to be able to. It sucks to have to go protest, but it is nice to go out and see lots of like minded folks who are standing up when they need to. So.

Oh, it. From the outside looking in, it is a little bit. It's the wild is the only thing that I feel like is what captures it. It's just other than.

I mean the other term I use is like it's just a bit batshit crazy and wild. Like I don't have any other language for it because it just doesn't seem to comprehend and, and encapsulate it.

So I can, you know, I have friends in the US and so like I can only. Yeah. I mean from the outside looking in, it's like we can only imagine what it is like to, to live in that on a day to day basis.

So.

Yeah, I sort of keep telling people I'm on Team Collapse. So, you know, research suggests that societal collapse would improve 99 of people's lives. So I'm just. Oh goodness.

Okay, so we had a couple of spoilers already, but I like to start this.

Sorry. So.

No, it's fine. I love spoilers. I like to start these episodes with a very broad, vague question, which is where does your story start?

Oh, I mean, there's a couple different places that could start. Wow, that is a good question.

I usually start, I guess, I guess when we're talking about deconstruction spaces, I usually start at age 10, which is when I informed my parents I didn't want to go to heaven anymore. And they sort of patted me on the head and ignored that. But.

But I think that's really what stands out for me is like when my deconstruction started, even though it took me 20 more years to formally leave the church, it was, it was there from a young age. And you know, I know why I stayed and I know sort of the control tactics that were used.

But it is, I try and I think honor that 10 year old version of me who caught on a little earlier than the rest of my brain was able to that like, hey, this isn't for me.

Yeah.

So yeah, third grade was A big one for me. I also told my parents I didn't want to go to school anymore and they ignored that as well.

Unsurprising.

I mean.

Okay, so there's like two trains of thought that I automatically go with that 10, 10 year old version of you, which is what sort of space were you growing up in in terms of like what flavor of religion were you in? How did your parents respond to that and why was that such a big thing for like 10 year old Jeremy to feel like he needed to say?

Yeah, yeah. So I was raised in a very small but big to Milwaukee sect that's known as the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod.

So very German, very Protestant, Lutheran. I have a great grandpa who was a pastor and he still did full sermons in German. So my family's been in it pretty deeply for a while.

Both my parents are Lutheran school teachers.

So in this very small and, and in, in America, in the United States, I should say Lutheranism has the, the elca, which is the largest denomination and the most liberal denomination. And then there's the Missouri Synod, which is smaller and more conservative.

And then there's the Wisconsin Senate, which is the smallest and the most conservative. So that's the one that I was raised in. And yeah, my family was deeply in it.

My dad was a principal when I was growing up and for still to this day my mom just retired, but both my parents are still in the Lutheran school system. So kind of like a well known last name in the like big fish in a small pond. People knew who my dad was, people still know who my dad is.

And yeah, it's, it's very culty in Milwaukee because there's around 100 Lutheran Wells schools and churches in the Milwaukee area. It's sort of the capital of the Wells is in the Milwaukee state area and one of the suburbs is where the seminary is. So.

Okay.

And sort of the central hub is here in Milwaukee. And so I, I lived in an urban setting. I grew up in a, a modern city, but I didn't really interact with anybody who wasn't Wells.

And so everything I did, school, sports, all that stuff, church obviously was, was all with Wells people. And so it's, it's a weird sort of double world you grow up in. Where I was in the north side of Milwaukee, which was predominantly black.

It's one of the few white kids in my neighborhood. And because we were poor obviously and because my parents worked for a small religious sect, right obviously we were poor.

And so I grew up in Milwaukee and then we sort of Drove a bit of, to find this Wells school and they were all over the place. But my parents were so connected we had to go to the right one and we had to go to the one that like whatever.

But so it's really culty and it's weird to sort of say that as a religious trauma therapist now, I work with people who like grew up on compounds and shit.

Like it's, it's not what you see on the Netflix documentaries, but I do think it is what a lot of people who grew up fundamentalists do experience where you have this really sheltered version of life where you're not able to fully participate in the real world because you're only allowed to interact with the people who are the quote, unquote. Right. Religion.

Yeah.

And we are having a very interesting conversation around that at the moment because one of our states is doing an inquiry into cults and other high control fringe groups and, and there is like a conversation that's going around that this is not just happening in these places that we see on the Netflix docos and you know, and in the prime Dockers and all of that sort of thing. It is happening in what we would consider like quite unquote mainstream or normal churches and spaces.

You still see the same sort of like cultic coercive controlling dynamics, but from.

The outside she looks normal.

So, so it's like, I mean that's confusing for a kid I imagine to grow up in. Like how did you make sense of that at the time?

Yeah, I mean as a little, little kid I didn't know any different. Right. Like that's, that's all I had when my dad was a principal. So that was through first grade for me. We lived on the school property.

So as, as a principal he, we got to live in like the, the school owned a house and so we got to live in, in the house that was on the school property. So like as a little, little kid I had a full playground in my backyard.

You know, like could go across the, the parking lot and there's the basketball courts on the parking lot and like. So as a little, little kid I don't really remember much other than like it's pretty idyllic. I had a playground, I'm the youngest of four.

I had older siblings to play with. Like it was pretty good.

Yeah.

I think what happens, you know, your second question was what happened in third grade? 10 year old Jeremy. I'm neurodivergent. I have ADHD. I think that's when my brain developed enough to be like, this is, this is boxing me in too much.

Yeah.

But I had, I had a lot of hell trauma. And so as much as I didn't want to go to heaven, because singing for all eternity really is what I was not interested in.

It's so funny because last night I did an interview with someone who was like, singing was like my safe space. And so it's so funny. Like the, it's those funny little things that either keep you in or the things that go, I don't want to do that forever.

Yeah. I think what I was told was some version of like, well, you can play baseball in heaven.

And that didn't make sense to me, but at least it was like an answer. So I was like, I, I guess good enough. I don't want to go to hell, so I guess I'll play baseball.

But I, I think both would not want to go to heaven and not want to go to school is when my ADHD hit, which, which we know is. There's a, A window of brain development that happens around that age where that's, that's pretty likely.

I was a very gifted student, and so I wasn't diagnosed till much later in life. But I think behaviorally and developmentally, I had a lot of extra tasks. I am old and 37, not that old, but old enough.

We had chalkboards, and so I had to like, take the chalkboard erasers and clap them out during the day. Took the flag up and down. Like there was stuff that, like extra Jeremy jobs because I was done with my homework. I got good grades. They. I couldn't.

They couldn't say I was in trouble for anything. But also they needed to keep me busy, otherwise I'd start like, messing with other kids or distracting other people.

And so, like, when I reflect as a therapist now, I'm like, well, it was so obvious. But this was, you know, the late 90s. Nobody was doing mental health, especially not in high control religious situations.

So, yeah, I think, I think it's when my ADHD hit and then it's really. I didn't have an option to leave.

I mean, truly, realistically, until college, I went to a public university, and that was the first time I, I wasn't in a parochial school. And that was really good for me.

And I, I did what I think a lot of high control people, high control religious survivors do is I found somebody who grew up in the same religion as I did, and I dated that person.

So even when I had, like, a chance, I think, to leave, that familiarity kicked in of, like, my roommates having sex and I am not allowed in my dorm room because there's a sock on the door. That's way outside of my comfort zone.

And so I think, like, as much as college was really good for me and I grew a lot there, I do think initially there was a lot of, like, fear, and in that fear, dating somebody who was from the same religion as me. So, yeah, it really wasn't until my wife now and I had a kid where I was like, I did the liberal progressive Christian thing, right.

And I worked a lot with the LGBTQ + community and I was a safe space and I did all of that stuff, moving more and more liberal, moving more and more progressive. But it wasn't until I had a kid where I was like, yeah, there's no way that, like, teaching Noah's Ark to a child is developmentally appropriate.

Like, I just can't. And I think once I sort of said that out loud is like, yeah, I don't believe that either.

Yeah.

So again, I sort of view that 10 year old as that marker of, like, I knew I was deconstructing then. There are some other, like, standout things. I remember having, like, sit downs with a pastor and stuff being like, this is.

This has to be inaccurate or this cannot be true. You know, like, there were things that I was really hung up on but always got enough of an answer, even if it wasn't a good one or it was.

That wasn't one that, like, really got to the root of where I was at. It was, again, I was just like, I needed enough of an answer to stay. I think I was always fighting to stay more than anything else.

But also, I was like church council vice president and I served on boards and I did things like, I think that Christian hand waving that happens of like, oh, you were never really a true believer. It's like, no, I was, like, actively working hard to get to heaven and to avoid hell. Like, that was. It wasn't that I didn't believe. It was.

There was a part of my brain that was like, I need this to make sense so that my belief is easier. And it just really never got easier.

Yeah.

And so throughout, I mean, I asked this question, particularly for people who were raised in spaces like this, which was, at what point was your faith or your spirituality your own and not the one that you were raised in and who was God to you throughout that time?

Yeah, that's a good question. I have two sort of answers because I think I try and normalize as much As I can.

I think one of the big breaks for me was hitting puberty, where, like, sexuality was just something I was going to feel guilty about a lot, but, like, not stop pursuing it.

And so there was, after I hit puberty, you know, and started never having sex, but doing all the things leading up to intercourse, a lot of guilt, a lot of shame about that. But, like, always sort of the idea that, like, I wasn't gonna stop, like, it was too good, I liked it too much, it made my brain too happy.

And that was something that was like, I think that first sort of embodied experience for me where it was like, I'm not overthinking stuff. Like, I'm just genuinely, like, enjoying my experience here. And I'm adhd, I'm autistic, Like, I'm not out of my head all that often.

And so sex was one of those things where it was like that, but you know, still had the, like, purity, culture and the shame stuff attached to that. So even though I think I knew I was never going to stop pursuing that, whether it was sinful or not, it was still a struggle.

But then, yeah, when, when I left, when I was like, I don't believe this, I had. I had prepped for that without knowing that's what I was doing.

What do you mean prepped for it? Even though you didn't know at the time.

So I was a gifted student, as I mentioned earlier. So I graduated from college when I was 20 and. Which is young here. I don't know. I don't know the Australian timeline for higher education.

Um, yeah, but I was a couple of years ahead. And so by the time I did my master's and then my post grad, I. Around the time most people graduate from college, I had two graduate degrees already.

And so I think I overage. Yeah, I don't say that to brag.

No, I.

It's. It's like we refer to it as twice exceptional for. For people who are neurodivergent.

But on the gifted side of things, it doesn't necessarily make life easier. It's not an accomplishment because it wasn't hard for me. And again, that's not a brag.

It's just like, my brain is why you're different than other people'. Yeah, but the.

I think I had this professional part of my brain that had been pretty built out by that point of, like, research says this, science says this. So I don't know. I don't like the idea that I. That science was my God, but I had this Very research based.

I went to University of Minnesota which is one of the top three research institutions in the nation.

And so like I had this really good scientific background on what good research looks like, how, how do you assess data, how do you spot data that's been like fudged and messed with and like, you know, I had this strong scientific background in spite of being raised on Noah's Ark and young earth creationism and all this other stuff when I, when I had the opportunity to learn, I like learning.

And so the, you know, I started my career as a Christian counselor and I was convincing people, other believers, like I know those are the words that are there, but this is how we have to interpret it because this is what the research tells us. And so it was like blending my, my professional brain, my science mind with like again trying to make it fit. I needed it, I needed it to make sense.

And so yeah, by the time I left I was pretty comfortable being like science is the thing.

I landed in a like atheist pagan space though I do still find some structure around things like the wheel of the year and marking the passage of time with ritual and some of those. I find that to be important human experience.

I think some people can get squicked out on, on the religious terminology of things like ritual and stuff like that. But yeah, that's just human religion uses it, it's not, it's not a religious idea. But so I was pretty ready for that.

And you know, I find even in pagan spaces some of the same things that bother me about organized religion which is humans organize around in group out, group dynamics way too much. But yeah, that's been, that's been good. That still feels pretty authentic but like I'm not at a organization at all.

I, I, there were so few organizations that were helpful, safe landy places for me when I formally left the church and, and I think what a lot of people experience is missing that community. And so that community was good. That was also when I came out like publicly as an atheist was around Covid.

So there was a lot of, like a lot of people were online anyway. And so that space, I think being online was really helpful for me.

But yeah, sort of a science based earth revering nature is where I, I land but without any of the woo. I know that's offensive to some pagans, but that is, that is how I feel about it.

Yeah, I know that when, when people talk about deconstruction, the conversation is largely around, you know, pulling apart beliefs and, and doctrines and, and seeing how it aligns with you. And do I believe this? Do I believe that? All of that sort of thing.

But was there a part of you, you know, this was all you knew for a really long time. And was there a part of you that was also trying to pull apart what would be referred to as a relationship with God, or was that not.

No, I mean, that was that. I never had that. I mean, I don't want to say that I never. And you can't say that I never felt it.

And, and I can reflect on it now as a neurodivergent adult and say like, a lot of what I felt like didn't. I didn't fit in with other people was being neurodivergent.

Yeah, but in the context of religion, I. I thought other people were experiencing some version of like an, an active relationship or a communion with God. And like, I didn'. I just assumed as a child that, like, that was my fault. Right. Like, somehow I was doing it wrong to not experience that.

But no, I mean, as, as my adulthood came on, there's so many things that I just sort of needed the permission to say out loud that I didn't believe it. You know, like, I remember I took a biblical. Geez. Parochial school. Right. I took a biblical archeology class. And like, that wasn't helpful for me.

Like, that made me question a lot more and that made me think my teacher was a moron. And like, you know, I hadn't quite put together that like. Right. None of this makes sense because it's wrong.

But I was like, this person who's supposed to be helping me understand is an idiot because they are making me understand even less. They must be woefully uninformed. And granted, I felt that about a lot of my teachers for a lot of different reasons.

Yeah.

But like, yeah, there was stuff around.

I remember having a pretty big, like, I'm going to call it a come to Jesus moment with one of my pastors because I was like, if I choke on the communion wafer and die and you do an autopsy of me, I do not believe there will be human flesh in my stomach. And like, I just, like, I couldn't.

I couldn't because, like, in my fundamentalist religion, like, it, it becomes the true legitimate, literal body and blood of Christ.

Yep.

And I was just like, no, like, you're telling me that it's faith and I need to have faith, but, like, I cannot believe that. Like, we should be able to test it then. And I don't believe that would happen. And I Don't think you do either.

How about questions like that responded to? Because I mean, we know in like cultic spaces that questions are not looked upon fondly, particularly the, you know, wrong kind of questions.

Yeah, it was a. I always occupied a weird space for people. One because I was like sort of a well known family.

Yeah.

So I think, I think they were, I think people in power. I wasn't aware of this, but reflecting on it now, I think people in power were like wary of. They knew they couldn't excommunicate me. Right.

Like my family was too big of a deal. So I think they were always sort of trying to. But also as this gifted student. So they wanted me in the church.

Like there were people who wanted me to be a pastor, which would have been a horrific idea.

But like, you know, there was, there are people who wanted to steer me towards some version of like public ministry as a career because I was very smart and you know, natural public speaking comes very naturally. There are things that like again, I know now I was really good at masking and that's all they were appreciating.

But like at the time I think there was this, this gentleness to their response because of my last name. And then there was a desire that like, hey, if we like push this kid the right way, maybe, maybe that's the future generation of the church.

Which again is, was woefully misguided on their parts. But no, I mean it was, it was always sort of. It would go on for a while because again that's, that's. I'm autistic as well.

So like there's that part of my brain that doesn't let stuff go. And so it'd be like, you know, it would turn into like, I don't believe, not only do I not believe this, but I don't believe that you believe this.

Because if you believe that like you there's. Explain to me your belief because it doesn't make sense to me and that makes people really uncomfortable.

And so I had this again like neurodivergent way of approaching it that I can reflect on now. But like it made it hard for people. I was earnest, I was genuine again. I wasn't coming in like middle finger to the law.

I was coming in like, help me understand this because it's bothering me. And so I got a lot of. I sort of say like the response I got at 10 is what I continued to get. Just different versions of.

It was just like a pat on the head. And like. But you're gonna keep doing this. So, like, I remember that conversation specifically ended with like the pastor at my.

At that time got out, like his Greek translation of the ba. Like, and like, I think he just sort of like, I think on some level, kudos to him, I guess.

Yeah.

Realized like, okay, this, this brain, this person's brain moves really fast. What if I overwhelm them with the intellectual thing? So, like, we went to like the group Greek roots of the words and stuff like that.

I had no frame of reference for a foreign language. Like, I think that was enough to be like, there is an answer and I don't understand it because I don't speak Greek.

And that's, again, it was a good enough answer to go on. But my parents are still in the church, so I don't want to give them more credit for deconstructing than they deserve.

But my mom's an English teacher and she would sit during church services and she would take the little pencil or pen that's in the pews for the attendance tracker kind of. She would grab that and she would like circle grammatical errors in the bulletin.

And so, like, you know, I grew up with this, like, yes, we had to go to church and we had to be there. We didn't skip, we didn't take weeks off. But there was also like this weird sort of like intellectual.

Like my family, both my parents are teachers, so they really cared about education and they really cared about like intellect. And so it was like, yeah, we're in church and we're supposed to do all the things and look like the nice church family.

But also like, my mom was, was like low key shaming whoever printed the bulletin for not like proofreading it. So it was like. So by the time I was like 17, 18, I really wasn't participating in the service.

I was usually like reading the Bible, which my parents would leave me alone then, but I was like, you know, sort of doing my own thing. I really didn't like singing the songs or I would do the things to not disrupt the service for other people. But I was not.

And again, I wasn't a non believer at that point. I was. It was just more of like, I'm gonna read this like, thing about Paul because that's what my brain's on.

Rather than like, whatever, we're getting a Christmas service or Easter serve, like, done, been there, done that. That's boring. Let me do something more interesting. And as long as I wasn't disruptive, my parents pretty much let me be.

And I can Reflect and say, like, my parents didn't know to with me either. I. I'm aware of that at this point in my life now, but my dad flat out said that to me after I gotten my master's in psychology.

He's like, didn't think this is what you would do with your life. But also, I guess I never knew it was gonna happen. Cool. Thanks, dad. But, yeah, I mean, it was so. It was. It was weird.

I have these, like, very strong points where it's like, I knew if I could go back and just be like, it's okay to not believe it. You'll be fine. It would have saved me a lot of time.

And I mean, I think, like, the.

It sounds a little bit like there was that part of you that was either unable or unwilling to play the mental gymnastics game that so many people play to make sense. That doesn't make sense because they're so terrified of the end result, which is hell. Right. Like, so we do.

We do the mental loops and the gymnastics to make things make sense. Even though I think so many of us were like, it still doesn't really make sense, but I'm gonna, like, just really portion.

Just.

It makes sense.

Right.

Well, you've. You've experienced this on your podcast and probably with some clients, too. There's. There's a lot of people who go to seminary.

Yeah.

Because they're struggling. They have questions. They want to learn more. They want to make it make sense, and that's when they deconstruct.

And I think, yeah, I think for me, because my. The sect I grew up in was so small. Like, the.

The college you went to before seminary, that was part of, like, the Lutheran system was smaller than my high school. So I was like, I'm not.

I don't want to be a pastor or a teacher, but, like, no, there's no way I'm gonna go to a school that's smaller than my high school. Like, that's awful. And I was good at school, so my parents were pretty hands off on.

Like, we were poor, and I was good enough at school where I was gonna go to college, pretty much anywhere that I wanted for free, just on academics. And so it was like, they were pretty hands off and supportive.

I think they were just ecstatic that I was, like, not fighting them on going to college. But so it was. I was, like, a hard kid to direct because I wasn't doing anything overtly wrong, but I wasn't following the script either.

Yeah.

And so I occupied this space of sort of like, you know, I'd get a look or I'd get like a course correction. But I was. I was rarely overtly in trouble. I was just sort of like. And I learned.

I'm the youngest of four, so I sort of learned from my older siblings, like, here's the lane I can occupy and sort of be left alone. Alone. Which as an undiagnosed neurodivergent kid, a lot of what I wanted was just to be left alone.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, it was that sort of weird space. And I think my experience a little different because, like, my parents were really.

I have a sister who went to that college and is a teacher till this day. To this day, my parents are still teaching. So like, there was.

I had this sort of extraordinary status as like a really gifted student where my parents again, were pretty ecstatic that I stopped fighting them about going to school and pretty much let me do my thing as long as I, like, maintained my grade point average. And that wasn't. That seems like a reasonable request. Like, there are times where I was an angsty teenager about it and like, I'm a top 10 student.

Why are you hassling me about my grades? But like, it. The trade off was always. They'd leave me alone. Then I, yeah. Got to drive myself to school.

Instead of having to ride with them, I got to go hang out with my friends after school. As long as I had my homework done, it was always just sort of.

They use the reward system of you can do what you want as long as you get your stuff done on time. And so like, that kept. That kept my undiagnosed ADHD in check in a lot of ways, which was nice. But yeah, I was just mostly bored.

Yeah.

Throughout all of that. But like, I don't know that I finished my thought earlier with the seminary thing. I was reading like seminary theses as a high schooler.

Like, I remember reading, I got like, access to the seminary's library because I had like, these questions and these things that, like, other people didn't want to talk to me about or didn't have the answers for. And so I was like. I was again, like I was in it. You know, it's not like I had one foot in, one foot out. I was just.

Is putting my, my brain power towards like this. I haven't gotten a good enough answer. So it must be a problem of the people I'm asking. Let me keep getting more and more information. And so.

But like, there are things that I talk about. The biblical archaeology class I took A lot of AP classes, which. Is that an Australian thing? I don't know. They're a high school class.

You, you take classes. It's advanced placement. You take classes in high school for college credit.

Oh, right.

So I took a lot of those classes in high school. And like the, the biology class we took, which is a college level course, but I'm at this, this tiny Lutheran high school.

Our teacher wrote the word evil and then did a dash and put ocean. So we, we had an entire chapter, like 25% of the test is on evolution. Evolution, Jesus. And he would, he would call it evolution.

Every, every single time he wrote it out with the word evil in it. He pronoun. And again, I think it was like, again, I know it was like an ADHD autistic, angsty teenager. Like, that just turned me off to it so much.

Like, it was like, this is too, like, stop telling me how to think. Stop. Like those things that they did to try and like keep kids away from it, that did just the exact opposite.

Like, it was such a turn off to me for like those things was like, I don't know, evolution. Evolution seems to have like a much better track record than like this young earth creationist stuff. Yeah.

But I was like, you know, arguing with pastors and people about like, well, like, you're wrong, there must be another answer. Like, God created the earth with age. And they would be like, oh, like if you believe that, great.

You know, like I was sort of coming up with my own solutions to these problems because nobody was giving me like a good enough answer.

Yeah.

By the time me would have ate up a teacher saying evolution, she would have just like frothed over that. I would have loved it.

No, it was brutal. It was so bad because like, again, in my like very black and white sort of brain, my brain was like, I need this for college credits.

Stop doing it wrong. Like, you know, and again, there are things about the, this is like the funny anecdotes. There are things that were bad about.

Like, my brain is wired for black and white thinking.

Yeah.

And that is what fundamentalist religious religions teach you.

Yeah.

So there's this part of me that's like, yeah. That was very like manipulative on their part to prey on my brain specifically with that black and white thinking.

But again, I wasn't aware of those things at the time.

Yeah, you mentioned. I mean, one of the biggest things and the hardest things I think for so many to deconstruct and to process and to unlearn is the fear of hell.

And you're already sort of like mentioned that as a young kid. And so what was it like for you to. I'm gonna ask like a dual question here because I'm also sort of known for asking double barreled questions.

What was it like for you to deconstruct the concept of hell? But also then on the flip side, what is it like for you to help other people unlearn the concept of hell?

Yeah, that's a good question. I, I did what people who don't have good answers do and I was like, let me dig in and learn more about this. I remember reading.

So I mentioned my parents were both teachers, both at different points in their careers, English teachers. So I grew up in like, of not only like an education is very important but like words are very important.

Like I grew up reading like Lord Byron and you know, famous poetry. And like I was a weird kid.

But, but so I remember reading Dante's Inferno and being like, huh, that's pretty much our understanding of hell, but that's not in the Bible.

That's familiar.

And so, so I like made one of those connections young just because I was like reading the classics for I don't know, fun question mark.

And, and so then like, you know, I, I had this, it was, it was this back and forth thing because like the Bible, the translation we use didn't say that much about hell. And so I was aware, I don't know, I probably chalked this up as like ah, this is how the world gets you that tricky, tricky sinners out there.

But like there was a difference between the sort of cultural understanding of hell and what it actually was. I was. But you know, at the same time like I would not watch a horror film.

I like anything that was about demons or demon possession was really like too freaky for me. I have still to this day a pretty vivid imagination.

So like as a young kid, like I was the kid who would like have a bad thought about a demon and then wake up at like 3:33 like for the next week and be like, oh no, somehow this is satanic. I don't know how, but it clearly is. So yeah, that stuff was, was not great for me.

And.

It just sort of went away with like none of this is real. And Richard Carrier's work was really instrumental for me.

When I found his work I was at that point I was working in higher ed and doing like the very liberal Christian thing, safe space on campus, working. I worked with athletes at the time. I was the director of student Athlete mental wellness.

And so I was like, pretty overtly, hey, I'm here for you all you little closeted queer athletes who play women's softball and women's lacrosse.

And those stereotypes exist for a reason, you know, Like, I was, I was pretty out and about on a Christian campus as like, I'm safe, I support you, Jesus has to love you. Everyone who's here is a bigot. But like, I'm not. So like, I was doing sort of that stuff. So I was like, I was, I was just like waiting.

I look back and I'd just be like, jeremy, just leave. Just leave. Like you're ready to just leave.

And so when I was, I found Richard Carrier's work, which put like so much stuff into perspective for me about how the Bible was constructed.

And you know, I had all this, I'm a, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, so I had all the systems stuff just sort of ready to apply to be like, oh yeah, like, this is how an abusive parent does things. This is how an abusive partner manipulates their. Like, this is the abuse cycle. Like, I knew all that stuff professionally.

Yep.

And once I found Richard Carrier's work, which, which let me go, let. Helped me let go of like the infallible nature of the Bible, which I was raised with as a fundamentalist.

Once that fell, then everything else fell too. It was like this sort of load bearing Jenga piece that was holding the whole tower up.

And once it was like, you can question this because it's clearly man made. Then I was like, oh, I'm out, right? And I say I was out, but like, right.

I went back to study religious trauma specifically to make sense of like why I stayed for so long and all this other stuff. But like, it was a lot of it, it made sense to me once I like moved into that space of like, oh yeah, like obviously.

And so when I work with clients around hell trauma, I don't know, I generally assume my experience is so different than other people's that I don't draw from my own experience very much. So I going to do the shitty therapist podcast answer and say like, it depends. It depends on where my client is, how I respond.

That's the, that's the correct thing to do as a therapist. But truly, like, I don't really have. I've had a handful of clients who I've brought up Richard Carrier to because he's not like I would.

I love his work and I've talked to him, I've gotten to meet him personally. And, and he's. I, I very much enjoy him and his work, but he's not for everyone.

And his work is like for the nerdy kid who like had really done a deep dive or people who have probably gone to seminary. I think he's great.

I think for somebody who like grew up in a non denominational church and like it was like a cult of personality for a really exciting praise leader or something like that. Like Richard Carrier's work is really a lot and it's kind of heavy, but I needed that.

I had this academic background and so I needed somebody who cited all their work and wrote it as an academic peer reviewed paper. Like that's what I needed to be able to let it go. So I really appreciate his.

His stuff is not as accessible as sort of like Bart Ehrman or somebody like that that a lot of deconstruction folks find. But his work, like I needed, I needed the more formal scientific version of it from somebody who was like a PhD at Columbia, like real high.

Like somebody who, in the academic world that I came from, I could be like, no. Like this person knows their shit.

Yeah.

So I. But yeah, only a handful of clients have ever found his work useful. So again, it's like one of those things where I'm aware like that's not.

I have the big thick peer reviewed study he wrote called History on the Historicity of Jesus in my office and I've had one client ever open it up and look at it. But like I loved it and I, I have it in my office because like, I refer to it because there's stuff in it that's like, right.

That he's so thorough and I really like it. I still read his blog regularly. He posts stuff pretty regularly.

So like, and again I get, I know why people don't like necessarily dealing with him and he's not the most popular name in deconstruction spaces. But like that's fine, you know, like I needed him and that worked really well for me. And yeah. So.

But yeah, I mean there's other, there are some books around. What's the, the Diabolical Trinity I think is a good one that covers.

Was that Mark Carus, I want to say, has some, has some really good stuff around hell trauma.

I do a lot of DBT work with folks, so there's a lot about like identifying safety and then like using those DBT skills to sort of regulate or soothe whichever we need to do. So I come. I have the sports background too of adhd, so I have all These different focuses. So, like, I do a lot of, like, skill building.

What would be. Not like a mental wellness coach, but like a sports coach. Like, I truly have that background.

And so I blend a lot of that in how I do therapy with, like, skill building. If I wanted you to make a free throw, we would need to practice this many times this way.

If I want you to use a soothing skill, I need you to practice this many times in this way. And so that comes really naturally to me. And that seems to work for a lot of folks.

Yeah, I mean, it's a really practical. It's easy for people to imagine.

Like, they, you know, a lot of people understand that if you want to build a new skill, you do need to practice practice. You do need to learn. You aren't going to know that automatically how to do the things. So I think it's also just like an.

It's an easy angle for people to imagine in terms of that as well. So, yeah, I do want to ask about. Because I can't imagine that the space you grew up in was queer affirming.

So I'm curious, as a queer person, how on earth you landed as the queer safe person in a Christian campus.

That is a good question. I didn't really, like, understand my own queerness for a long time because it was so wrapped up in being neurodivergent.

Yeah.

And so which, like, I. I got diagnosed with ADHD when I was 23. So, like, my last. My last semester approach, like, I was. My last semester postgrad.

I was like, weeks away from being done, like, done done with school. Finally, that's when I got diagnosed, which is a really stupid time to get.

Yeah.

And so I had that diagnosis and I knew how to work with it.

And I've worked with ADHD for a long time, but it wasn't until I left the church that I sort of like, it opened up a lot of my own experience around, like, how out of touch I was with my body.

Yeah.

And so I had this whole, like, thing with sensory issues where the autism comes in. Like, I didn't even have access to, like, I couldn't even explained it to a therapist to get diagnosed.

Yeah, I really needed to, like, leave the church and, like, regulate my own system. I was doing so much intellectualizing, and I have, like, I have a fast brain, and my processing speed when it's been tested is very fast.

So, like, it was tiring. And I'm not. It had a cost, but I was successful at intellectualizing my way through most things.

And so once I left the church and like, my system could relax, it totally changed how I viewed my own neurodivergence and how I worked with other people's neurodivergence. And then I got diagnosed with autism. And so.

But yeah, like that label of ADHD did a lot of heavy lifting for me for a long time where it's like, you know, I just sort of like would argue my way out of things. Like, I'm not queer.

Like, everybody thinks, I don't know, like nobody's so straight that they wouldn't have like a threesome with Viggo Mortensen or whatever. You know, like Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. Like, there's no guy out there who wouldn't, you know, share a tent with Aragorn. Come on.

And like, I just, I just thought everybody was lying about it. I thought I was like, you know, normal and straight and like everybody else was just too scared to be honest about it.

And then like, once I like left the church and got diagnosed, I was like, oh, no, like you're just queer, obviously. Like that's, that's, that's not the normal status for everyone. That is, that's a you thing and there's nothing wrong with it.

And it's lovely and beautiful and like, you dumb ass, the rest of the world hasn't been lying to you.

We love the self compassion in that statement.

Yeah, so, so yeah, I, and I've just been like, for so long. I was like, I was just attracted to everybody, like all the time.

And it was like sex was bad and wrong because you're not married and so like you couldn't do anything with it. So like, I think it just covered up like a lot of my own queerness.

So I think that was a thing where like some part of my brain and my nervous system was ahead of where I was at intellectually with my own queerness. But I think, I think I've always had sort of a strong sense of justice around, like fighting for the marginalized.

Like, I've always rooted for the underdog. I always wanted. That's not true. For a long time I rooted for the bad guy. I've not fit in very well in my life.

But like, you know, I, I related to people differently than other people. And I think I saw even as a white male who's like privileged in a lot of ways, able bodied, good at school, all that stuff.

Like, I grew up poor and I know now I'm neurodivergent, but I certainly didn't know that then, but like, so still having a lot of privilege. And the privilege that I would argue was like forward facing, like is visual. I have white skin, I am able bodied. I'm not an unattractive human.

Like the things that give people like those first 10 seconds of meeting you bias them to like you more. Like I have all those things. So it's like I had these things working against me, but I also had a lot of privilege.

And so I think that sense of myself not fitting in and being like mad about it and having the sense of injustice or being wronged, but also like being like, yeah, but I'm, I'm privileged. So like I'm not, I'm not the underdog. But like I should be on their side, I should be helping them.

It's not correct, it is unjust that they are treated differently. And so I was, I've always been working with marginalized communities. Started my career working at like homeless shelters.

And it's a uniquely American problem, but for people who didn't have insurance. I worked at a low fee clinic. So like I worked with these marginalized people, these people who sort of.

And like I love working in homeless shelters in America is the recipe for disaster. And you're sure to get burnt out because the system is so, so broken.

But I, those people who are marginalized who existed sort of outside of the norms of society, I always got along with them.

You know, like there was that neurodivergent piece of my brain that like saw a fellow traveler and just vibed with them and like, so there's always that sense for me. And I, I as a coach, I've always been very, very protective of my players from bad coaches, from bad referees, from their parents being mean to them.

Whatever it is. It's like, hey, this like 16 year old kid doesn't need your life is hard enough for them. Leave them alone. I need them to play volleyball.

You need to stop yelling at them.

So again, I think sort of that like, I don't know, that protective thing, I'm sure that comes from some deep seated version of hierarchy and misogyny in the church, but I think I've, I've tried my best to turn that for good and not bad.

Yeah, I mean I think some people naturally have a advocacy, justice seeking part of them, I think. And mo.

And I mean I will often talk about my own experience and that, yeah, those looked different at different stages because at one point they were driven by the church. But my love of justice and advocacy didn't just magically disappear when I left the church.

It now just looks different, it's actually fuller than it was then. Yeah, but it still existed. Beliefs change, values very rarely do.

And so I think those parts of us, you know, exist all over that space irrespective of where you land in terms of belief.

I was just going to say like it's, it's backed by a decent amount of research now that like the autistic community often has, has a strong sense of, I don't want to say like morality but like that justice drive, that sense of right and wrong. That's why if you're a board game nerd, like your autistic friend is lovely because they know all the rules and they will enforce them.

And like, yeah, so I, you know, I'm, I'm adhd and I think, you know, my ADHD has been much more forward facing than the autistic things I struggle with. But that sense of justice has always been really strong for me.

And I agree, like, yeah, when I was 17 I was like, look at me not drinking and all these other bad Christians are out partying. Like that's bad. So it has, yes, matured and looked a lot different. But like a lot of that was doing therapy more than deconstruction.

A lot of that was you get to work with so many different people from so many different, like, I don't, I don't know how you can be a therapist and your, your empathy can't just explode in exponential growth.

Yeah, you said, I don't think you're a good one anyway. If that doesn't happen, I don't think you're necessarily a good therapist. I think we could probably very much know that they can, can do that.

But it's not good. I mean, you mentioned earlier that you sort of landed in an atheistic, sort of pagan space.

What was that like for you to voice some of that to your family who was still in the Lutheran space?

Yeah, my family knows I'm not religious and that's about the end of it. I have a brother who I'm very close with. My brother's eight years older than me. He's a family member I get along with the best.

He knows I'm an atheist, he knows I'm queer. But that's the only family member I've ever bothered to come out to on either of those things.

My family knows I'm not religious and my wife is no longer religious because when we had kids we're like no prayer at bedtime. They're not going to church with you. So like setting those boundaries of if you want access to our kids, these are our rules that you need to follow.

And my, as my family is very conflict avoidant. And so I have a sibling, I have a sister I don't talk to for I would say unrelated reasons. I'm sure it plays into it, but mostly unrelated reasons.

My sister who's still the church and my brother is not like out and about as an atheist, but is certainly not whatever version of religion he's not practicing, whatever he may personally believe still or like I guess I would say participating in an organized religion. The. So yeah, I, I'm not real close with my, my dad anymore and my mom, my mom is pretty close geographically to us and babysits our kids a lot.

So we see my mom a lot. But it's really in the context of like grandma time. Like she is wonderful for my boys.

Yeah.

American millennials will get this. But like having a free babysitter is a real life changer.

So like, you know, as long as she was willing to respect our boundaries, we've been willing to maintain that relationship.

And like, you know, it's, it's so weird because I think as I've matured in some of my deconstruction, like my parents are victims as much as I ever was.

Yeah.

And so it's hard to, to sort of hold like that righteous anger at what the church does and how it harms people to these people who are like still in it, still being harmed.

Like I, you know, my parents were not, my parents were strict in the sense of what the religious thought religion taught them to be, but they were not like James Dobson fanatics or anything. His books were in our house. But like again, it wasn't. You know, I work with people who have had much more horrific versions of that than I had.

My parents are generally kind and loving people and they're misguided in some of the how and the why to be loving and kind. You know, my mom's interesting. I think she's really quite high undiagnosed anxiety.

And so I, I wonder how much of some of that like circling stuff during the bulletin.

And some of her behaviors that I saw growing up was maybe not a lack of belief, but like maybe not as full fledged hardcore into the church as I always thought she was.

Yeah.

And yeah, you know, I'm pretty sure some of my neurodivergence comes from my dad's side of the family. I had a grandma who is Not a grandma, a great grandma who's institutionalized for a while and like just nobody talks about that.

So I'm pretty sure that's where like the neurodivergence and is on that side of the family Also based on some of my cousins but like the. Yeah, my dad's a hard read. He and I, he and I had more of a falling out in my teenage years when I was still a Christian. Just based on.

We're very different people. He was a teacher of mine. I had him for. I played baseball growing up. I had him as a coach and a teacher in the same semester.

And that was like when I was 16 or 17, which is when you're pretty sick of your parents to begin with. So then I, I just. He and I saw each other too much in, in that individuation phase that I was in.

I don't know that our relationship ever covered from that, from that. So it's not, it's not animosity.

My parents are still married, so I'll see him when, when, if, if we take the boys to my parents house for my mom to watch them. My dad's often around but like it's not. There's no closeness so it's pretty comfortable just to not talk about anything.

I'm not going out of my way to, to convert them to atheism as long as they are respectful of our rules with my boys and they always have been. So.

Yeah.

Which is like I'm grateful for that because that's certainly not what, what a lot of people experience. I get that.

Yeah.

No, I was actually just about to say like so many people, that's one of the hardest things. Right.

Is like, you know, people deconstruct or they leave a church system or faith and their family don't and yet they have to navigate relationship or boundaries and things like that. And it's hard.

But I mean I see that online so often as well, particularly in the US with you know, people talking about like their MAGA families and, and things like that and having to navigate boundaries and so it's hard, right?

Yeah, yeah, it's. I think my parents knew like that knew me well enough to know like there would be no changing that boundary.

Yeah.

And so I don't know how like again like they're lovely upstanding people or it's like based on respect or just like if we mess with this, he will not let us see those boys.

Yeah.

And so I think it was a very like I didn't have to fight the boundary, it was, like, set, and it was firm right away. Yeah. And some of that's like. Because I know how to set a boundary, because I teach other people how to do boundaries all the time.

Yeah.

You know, like, I'm not coming at it. Like, look at me. I get it. All right? And my family's awesome. I think it was like, right. I. I have done this work for a long time.

My wife and I were married for six or seven years before we had kids. So, like, you know, and that was because that's how I wanted to do it as a marriage therapist. Like, I was like, we're not having kids right away.

Even though we did the very Christian thing and got married young, we were like, you know, let's just be married for a while and not have kids. And so, like, by the. You know, I was like, 30, 31 when we had our first kid. So it was like, setting some of those boundaries was.

I knew what I was doing. I knew how to set a boundary. And my parents knew me well enough to know, like, that that wasn't a thing to test.

Yeah. Yeah.

As.

I mean, I typically will ask this question, but I'm going to ask it in a bit of a different way, which is, like, as someone who has intellectualized so much of their deconstruction, how does the concept of spirituality land for now? What is that space like?

Yeah. I don't know. I still intellectualize it a lot. Yeah. No, you know, I. I hold a lot of, like, reverence and space for nature. And I feel. I feel best.

I feel best participating in community in nature. I can tell you. That's because I get a lot of dopamine from being in nature.

Yeah.

You know, like, I can. I can still do, like. And let me explain why. It's not spirituality, it's science.

Yes.

No, I, like, I got my certification a few years ago to work with. To guide entheogenic experiences for folks. Psychedelics.

Yeah.

And, you know, even in that space, I see some people who are a little too wooy for my taste. And I'm like, it. It's not. It's not this magical thing. You're on a drug.

Yeah.

And it's a thing that's changing your brain chemistry, and that changes your experience. It's not more than that. Stop expanding it to be God or the source or whatever. Like, it's not.

It's not telling you anything any more than your doctor putting you under anesthesia is telling you. Like, it's the same thing. It's a Drug that's not natural to your brain and your brain is responding accordingly.

Like so I, I'm not like a, I don't know, spiritual. I'm, I, I would describe it as like my hackles get raised around it.

I'm still prickly around the concept of it because I think, I think more than my own personal experience because I see still on a regular basis how many people get harmed by it.

You know, it's my working with religious trauma and seeing it like that sense of justice and like this thing is bad and wrong and we should stop letting people do it is like right there for me.

Yeah.

And that's, I would, I would lean towards more based on my clients experiences than my own. I like psychedelic work. I like people who do that stuff.

I like a lot of the pagan stuff that I've been involved in and like I can explain how and why it works in the human psyche without going into a supernatural explanation. And that's, you know.

I also hold science tentatively in the sense that like obviously we don't understand everything and we don't have a good scientific explanation for everything. I put that mostly on like there is a good explanation, we just don't have it yet. More than I land on supernatural.

But yeah, like I think it is magical to have a really good connection with someone. I think having a fantastic conversation with another human being is like this little m. Magic, you know.

Like I think, I think there are things that are exceedingly wonderful and beautiful and make life worth living without needing to like default to a supernatural.

You know, I will like we rescued a praying mantis recently and it has like been amazing and I've gotten so much joy from watching my children watch it eat from me watching it eat from having to catch it food and like all this stuff. And like again I'm, I'm, I'm very adhd. My seven year old is too like right. It's brand new thing that's really exciting in our house.

We're of course just new and shiny. Feasting. Feasting on dopamine. Yeah.

And it's lovely but like again it's like, it's like this planet Earth episode in my, in this aquarium every time we feed it and it's so cool and it's so interesting and like right.

And my 7 year old named it and then he was like well now we got to keep it because we named it and so like it's just like yeah, I, I as self aware mammals that doesn't mean like life has to suck and Be this nihilistic horror show. Like, there's love and beauty and joy. So I don't know. That's a really long, terrible definition of spirituality.

But, like, I think there are things that are beautiful and magical without needing to be supernatural.

Yeah. And I. Well, actually, before I ask this question, I need to know the praying mantis name.

Now, its name is Razor. I think he named it Razor because it's got the. The sharp.

Yes.

For. I don't know. They're not claws. I know a lot of things about mantises that you call them mantids. See, like that's. It's been a hyper focus of mine.

I don't know what. What their four limbs are referred to, but, like, it's so, like, they get spikier when they see prey.

Like, it's so cool to watch their body adjust to this, like, stimuli. It's so fascinating. And you can train them. She recognizes.

I. I don't know that she recognizes my voice yet, but you can train them to recognize voices so that, like, they know they're gonna get. Get fed because they recognize that. That voice. So.

Wow.

My wife doesn't like bugs, so we don't take her out. You can, like, hold them and let them move around. They do have wings, so they can fly. So we usually keep her in her aquarium.

But yeah, it's like, you know, stuff like that where it's like, man, you'd be like, really down about the state of the world, but especially the United States. And then like, something like that comes along and it's like, so joyous and wonderful.

So.

Yeah, I love that. And it's like the.

The question that I was about to say or sort of just like, mention was it is such a nuanced space to actually just realize that religion and spirituality don't own the monopoly on things like love and joy and peace and harmony and all of those sorts of things. And that is both a really, for a lot of people, can be a really hard space to land in, because that. That's all it's ever been associated with.

But, you know, you sort of were like, it's not the best definition of spirituality, but like, you know, getting to a space where, like, those things are inherently spiritual within. They just don't have an external spirituality or a divine nature or something, you know, bigger and grander than yourself.

Yeah. I remember a therapy mentor of mine was talking at a conference and they. They sort of offhandedly referred to like an. A good intellectual.

An intellectually stimulating conversation has been a Spiritual experience. Yeah. And.

And I was like, yeah, that's always like, yes, I would much rather, a thousand percent would rather have a intellectually stimulating conversation than go to church.

Yeah.

And it was great. She didn't know I was deconstructing or that wasn't really the frame of reference for anybody but me.

But like, she just sort of had that throwaway line and it like hit me of like, oh, yeah, like I do have a lot of data on this stuff already. I've just never had.

Yeah.

The framework to put around it.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, when I'm talking with clients, I will go, like, eating a good meal at a new restaurant can feel spiritual.

Like, you know, playing with your dog can feel spiritual. Like going to like, I'm going to Lady Gaga in like six weeks. And I guarantee that will feel spiritual to me. Like, yeah, those things.

It gets posted online pretty regularly, but there's a old. I think it's a Tumblr post or something.

But it's like I used to think that Praise Praise Band was me connecting with the spirit, but then I had the same experience at a One Direction concert and I realized they just like music. And it's like, yes, yeah. Yeah, that's why. Yeah, that's why church has music. To, to elicit that response.

That's why we do the 24 hour stay awake marathons. To elicit a response like, religion didn't create any of this stuff. Relig is taking advantage of the way that our brains are wired.

Yeah, absolutely.

And. And I, like, I come from a social constructionist background around therapy.

So, you know, the postmodern therapy is narrative therapy and solution focus.

But I, when I am forced to, I say I'm a collaborative language therapist, which is probably the nerdiest and least well known of the postmodern therapies. But it's so much about language and it's about how meaning making is like this ongoing co creative process.

And like, I always thought that was so cool because I'm such like a nerd about words.

And so that idea that like, we can change our meaning in every single conversation we have, we can make new meanings, we can build new things just by conversing together. Like, there's a like, cynical part of me that's like, that's very hippie nonsense.

And then there's a part of me that's like, that's so lovely and like, that's reassuring in a lot of ways for me.

And so I think when I left religion, like I had this Philosophy that was really easy around, like meaning making is arbitrary and that doesn't mean it's, it's meaningless. That's very freeing that it's arbitrary. It means that we, we get to participate in the process instead of having it done for us.

And I, I, I love that. And I still love doing this work with people because I get to see that happen.

Like, I get to witness other people's journeys around like their own meaning making and finding meaning and co creating it in an intentional way. And how much better that feels than having it, it done for you or having it prescribed to you is like, yeah, that's so cool. So cool.

Yeah.

And that is a nice trend.

I love when transitions happen naturally, which is a nice transition to what I usually finish these episodes with, which is some encouragement for people because everybody is at different stages of where they're at, processing this stuff and deconstructing and, and going through either leaving or getting kicked out of spaces and, and things like that. But I usually ask just a very broad, what would you say to someone who is fresh in this space, fresh in their deconstruction?

And there, yeah, is lots of question marks.

Yeah. I think, you know, one of the things I talk about a lot is like family is who treats us how we want to be treated.

Yeah, that sounds almost biblical, Jeremy. I know it sounds, it sounds very familiar.

My, my, my look is wasted in the podcast because it really is what Christian nationalists wish Jesus looked like. Six foot three, beautiful long hair, big beard, blue eyes, you know, I'm white Jesus.

This, the, the, the sense of connection most people have to organized religion is a sense of community. And I get that, like, that's a very powerful driver of, of human need. And like a lot of it is coercive or manipulative. It's not healthy.

It's not, it's not what we describe as chosen family. It's closer to what we get from our family of origins. It's closer to what our biological family often is.

It's a sense of obligation or it's a, A, a transactional relationship instead of being one that is like mutually loving and respectful.

And so I think finding your family, finding chosen family, building community, that is actual unconditional love, not unconditional love with a lot of fine prints. Yeah. And you know, for people who can access their bodies, like, listen to your body.

For my neurodivergent people out there who are like the, is he talking about with access senses in their body, like, yes, read, read, read the books.

Listen to the podcasts do the intellectual thing, but, yeah, I think most people are like dumb idiots in a lot of ways, and most of us carry a lot of wonderful wisdom at the same time.

And so, you know, we, we have to hold both those truths at the same time of having community who can call us out what we need to, but, like, being able to find things on our own, things that vibe with us, things that feel good authentically, like your body is giving you feedback in real time. It's nice to pay attention to that.

Yeah, absolutely. I love that.

Thank you so much for joining me.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

I, I actually, I mean, one of the most beautiful parts that I love about the podcast is having such a diversity of people on in terms of, like, experience and perception and, you know, faith systems and all of that.

But I think that there will be a subsect of people who will really appreciate the intellectual nature of your deconstruction process, who will listen to other episodes and go, I don't get that.

That doesn't make sense to me.

Who will listen to this episode and go, oh, that's because that makes sense for me. And I love that. I love that.

Yeah. If, you know, for.

For anybody, the late diagnosed ADHD crowd who's tuning in, like, I. I put out a lot of content, not just on religious trauma, but on mental health in general. So if, if you want more from this perspective.

Yes.

I'm not hard to find on the Internet.

Yes. And I will be popping all of the links in the show notes anyway for people to be able to find you. But yeah, again, thank you so much for joining me.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you.

Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward. Take care.