Kyle Waldron makes the main point up front: Lucky Frog sells shelf‑stable "social tonics" that use magnesium and ashwagandha to take the edge off without alcohol or intoxication. He explains ashwagandha as a traditional Ayurvedic root with low‑level, cumulative calming effects and describes magnesium as a familiar supplement that supports relaxation, stressing that their doses are modest and meant for daytime use. Chris Lindstrom, out of Rochester, steers the chat toward flavor and process, and Kyle walks through the three distinct flavor profiles—plum/cardamom/pomelo; Meyer lemon/basil/strawberry; and mango/lime/pandan—showing how he started with culinary pairings and a simple formula of sweet, acid, and herbaceous to keep things approachable. They dig into practical production issues too: water‑soluble extracts that won’t wreck taste, avoiding harsh artificial sweeteners, working with a co‑packer to scale recipes, and ensuring shelf stability and food‑safety constraints. On the business side Kyle lays out the pivot away from cannabis drinks, the importance of direct‑to‑consumer margins, local roots in Rochester, and the next steps of expanding distribution while keeping the product delicious and repeatable.

Mentioned in this episode:

It’s A Lot

Check out It’s A Lot on Lunchador! https://feeds.captivate.fm/itsalot/

Getting Real with Bossy: For Women Who Own Business

Check out Getting Real with Bossy: For Women Who Own Business on Lunchador! https://feeds.captivate.fm/gettingrealwithbossy/

Joe Bean Roasters

Joe Bean Coffee - Coffee that lifts everyone. https://shop.joebeanroasters.com

I'm Chris Lindstrom, and this is the Food About Town podcast.

Rochester.

Well, why Rochester?

Chris Lindstrom was a hoot.

He was just so much fun.

He never stopped talking.

I mean, it was great.

Here's a good idea.

Have a point.

It makes it so much more interesting.

For the listener, and we don't need any characters around to give the joint atmosphere.

Is that clear?

Because I'm a pro.

That's what pros do.

I'm a professional.

Look it up in the book.

But now, yeah, I'm thinking I'm back.

And we are back with another episode of the Food About Town podcast.

I think at this point, you will have heard at least a few episodes in the recent past, which I'm really happy about.

It's been a long time for regular episodes.

Been a lot of focus on everybody else on the Lunchadore Podcast network.

So appreciate everybody tuning in again to listen to some episodes.

I'm really enjoying this.

Also, stay tuned for Fringe Festival previews.

I've loved doing those the last year, both here and in Pittsburgh.

It's been so much fun.

So we're doing more of those.

But I am here with a guest.

Guest.

Why don't you introduce yourself?

How's it going?

I'm Kyle Waldron, the founder of Lucky Frog Beverages.

So let's get the initial plugs off the bat.

Where can people generally find Lucky Frog, and where can they find out more information about it?

You can find more information about it on our website at www.luckyfrogbeverages.com.

And we have.

We got cans for sale on there.

We have a retail locator on there.

You can see we're located all over western New York right now and kind of expanding nationally.

Somewhat nice, you know, and it looks.

Like Instagram is at Lucky Frog Bevs.

Yes, you can find there.

So let's start off with the most basic possible thing.

I can ask.

What?

Why.

Why this style of beverage?

So these are.

These are labeled, at least on the website, as social tonics and on the cans as such, with interesting flavor combinations.

Why a social tonic?

A social tonic.

I mean, you know, part of it you could probably consider marketing, but I like that it kind of gives it its own unique feel compared to, like, you know, you have your other selection.

You have all sorts of selection of beverages, but it kind of gives it its own space in that selection.

You know what I mean?

It's not really like a, you know, it's not an alcoholic drink.

It's not like a cannabis drink.

It's not a soda.

It's kind of like.

And it's not an energy drink.

Yeah.

Like, it's not like the opposite of an energy.

It is not like intense.

Intense taurine and like, whatever else they jam into those other than caffeine to get you juddery and irritable and probably doing road ragey things.

Yeah, no, no, it is.

Yeah.

Very much the opposite of that.

And I mean, I guess the social aspect comes in that it's meant to be, you know, something you can drink at a bar that kind of just like chills you out.

You know what I mean?

Or just like, it's, you know, it doesn't have any alcohol in it.

It doesn't mean cannabis in it, but it does kind of like have a tiny bit of, you know, an effect.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So it's not.

This isn't like an intense.

This isn't like an intense situation where like, oh, yeah, you're going to sit and, like, get melted into the couch after having a.

After having a, you know, 10 milligram edible.

Like, you're not like.

Or you're drinking a can of, you know, THC soda.

You're not like, melting into the couch.

It's like just a.

Hey, it's nice to have a nice beverage.

And there are some things that are, you know, at least nominally relaxing about it.

Yeah, totally.

And I think.

I think a lot of people, when they see.

Because, you know, the drink, one of the things that drink has in it is ashwagandha.

I think a lot of people see that and they're just like, what the heck is that?

Like, am I going to, you know, make it really fucked up?

Like.

Yeah, and no, it's just like.

It's just magnesium and ashwagandha.

It's just like a nice little relaxation blend.

It doesn't have, like, a lot of either of those things either.

It's very manageable.

Like, you could drink one in the middle of the day and you won't fall asleep.

You know what I mean?

So.

Which probably a decent feature to have for a lot of different situations, right?

Because I think when people take magnesium before they go to bed.

I know a lot of people do this, but they'll take like, 400.

Like 400 is like the recommended dose.

A lot of.

And our drink has like 100, you know.

Okay.

So.

So, yeah.

So I looked.

So looking at the website, it looks like you are.

I don't.

Branding or, like, labeling that part as your.

I'm gonna use the term like industry use the functional portion.

Right.

Of the beverage.

Like you are labeling as repose, which is a combination of all these different things that's standard across your current line.

When you were, when you were working through this, how did, how did that process go with deciding what's the blend we're working on?

That's the functional part of this.

And how did you determine like one, not only just what ingredients, what quantity and how does that affect the flavor and consistency of the beverage?

Because that's, I think about that too.

Just because it's functional doesn't mean it's going to be a better like delicious beverage from that.

Because some of the ingredients, not these, but other ones that are used in energy drinks, for example, they taste awful.

Right.

Like they're terrible tasting things.

So how did that process go?

And when you were working through what do you want this to do?

And then how did you determine efficacy?

Exactly.

Like, this is more like diving into like the realities of it.

Right?

Totally.

So the extracts that we use don't, they don't like the way.

So they're water soluble.

They don't really end up having that much actual like flavoring.

It's kind of like that's one of the advantages of it.

I mean, I can't give all our secrets, of course.

Yeah.

But like.

Yeah, it's just that's, that's part of, you know, the nice part of using this specific ashwagandha extract is like it just doesn't taste like anything.

So we can kind of formulate our own drink around that.

And I think, I think a lot of.

So that you are right in saying that like a lot of similar beverages don't taste as good.

And I honestly think it's because a lot of them try really hard to be like a low calorie beverage that doesn't have any like added sugars and stuff like that.

And a lot of times like they use, you know, like fake sweeteners and stuff like that.

Like stevia has such a distinct.

Yeah.

Are you using stevia or using sugar alcohols or using, you know, other things, allulose or whatever else, using these, like you know, the higher end artificial, artificial or natural sweeteners, you know, like, you know, like your stevia, which is natural, but once you process it enough, it's now just a chemical powder.

Right.

And they do have distinct flavors if you're, if you're paying attention.

No, absolutely.

And you know, that was one of the things.

I mean that's kind of like one of my sales pitches.

Right.

Is like, you have all these, like, I've talked to this, a lot of people about this, and, you know, the functional beverage space, pretty hot right now.

But one of the biggest downside is usually just like, oh, but they don't.

Like, I, you know, I have this drink that has all this good stuff in it, but doesn't actually taste that good.

Yeah, it's.

I think it's one of the, One of the things that people miss the most when they're talking about their beverages is like, oh, it does all these things.

Like, does it taste good?

Right.

Like that.

It's kind of.

It's kind of an important thing if you want people to buy it more than once.

Yeah.

And it's like, you know.

Yeah, I get that there's like, medicinal quality, like, quantity qualities to that kind of thing, but.

Yeah, it's just like, I don't know, I don't want our drink to taste like a medicine.

And I think a lot of them kind of do.

And, you know, I want that.

I always wanted the drink to taste good first and then, like, have a.

Function second, you know, that's completely fair.

So you've mentioned an ingredient that I would say people understand what, you know, digestible magnesium is from a.

From a vitamin or a supplement perspective, it's a fairly standard and understood.

Talk about the other one, which is, you know, I'd say you're A number one thing that was mentioned is ashwagandha, which is a.

Looks like a root of sorts.

Right.

So how do you describe that and how is it usually described as a functional.

A functional ingredient?

I mean, without making any, like, medical.

Claims, I said my word.

Specifically, how is it usually defined as a functional ingredient?

Yeah, I got you.

I mean, you know, to be honest, like, when I first got the idea to.

To kind of go this route, because there's a number of things that led us up to the point of, you know, making repos into, like, what it is now.

And we'll dive into, like, all of your, like, the business process in a minute.

Yeah.

And.

But like, you know, I was always kind of, you know, I've heard of ashwagandha, and I think.

I don't know, it's.

I wasn't totally sold on it when the idea kind of first came around because, you know, you hear about all of these things and you're just like, well, it's kind of just.

It's all just marketing.

Right.

Like, it's my first, I'll admit, is my first instinct as well.

Like, just because it has, you know, it does have, you know, a cache is a natural ingredient and a natural effect and all these things.

To me, it's, you know, there's always, like, there's always marketing.

Right.

And, like, they don't.

You might not call it marketing totally, but to me, that's like, there's still a marketing involved with the, you know, proliferation of these ingredients in more commercial products.

Right.

And even then, even before the commercial products, it's kind of still marketing because it's all like, like underground talk about things and obviously historical cultural usage as well.

Yeah.

And, you know, but I guess, like, what I'm trying to get out there is that, like, I think once I kind of dove into.

Because the idea kind of came up as, like, a combination that, you know, I even.

I asked my girlfriend, I was like, you know, you're really into this kind of thing.

If you could make any beverage, like, any functional beverage with, like, a combination of your choosing, what would you want?

Hmm.

And the.

The first thing she came up with was magnesium and ashwagandha.

And I was kind of just like, all right, that's interesting.

So I started, like, researching those two things more.

And, you know, ashwagandha, it's not, from what I understand, it's.

It's not going to be super effective if you just, like, I don't really think it's a very active ingredient.

Like, if you drink, like, one can.

You know, I kind of feel like you're feeling, like, the magnesium more than you're feeling the ashwagandha.

But with ashwagandha, if you take it, like, consistently over, over, you know, like, obviously I'm the.

You know, I'm the owner of the company that's trying to sell you drinks.

I'll tell you to buy more drinks.

But, like, if you.

If you take it consistently over a longer period of time, even if it's in, like, smaller amounts, it does have, like, kind of a consistent effect.

And that effect, for me is it kind of like takes the very tip of the edge off as what I always describe it as.

And it's like, kind of nice.

Like, I don't know.

I was never really that sold before, but then I, like, started looking into it, and it's like, that's really pretty safe.

Like, obviously if you drink, like, or if you intake, you know, an absurd amount of ashwagandha, it'll probably do something bad to your liver.

But, like, anything would.

Yeah, of course.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And it's not like this is a new ingredient.

I mean, this, this is one of the, I would say, you know, the many herbs that are traditionally used in Indian.

Ayurvedic, Right, yes, exactly.

Ayurvedic health practices.

So this is not anything new in the human history of using.

Yeah, these things like this has been like, you know, I was just looking at like two, three thousand years they've been using this ingredient, which, you know, that makes sense based on what you're talking about is people always want to try to relax and try to do that stuff and use those things and it makes.

That's a logical progression.

And I know those things have, in the last few years, you know, as.

As the proliferation of these ingredients have, you know, turned into, I'd say, more visible for non traditional practicers.

There's always this, this barrier in this discussion of what is it and what does it do.

And you do have a lot of history to stand on, which is, which is nice.

No?

Yeah.

Well, it is kind of funny because a lot of.

There's like a really funny TikTok video that floated around our group chat for a little bit, and it was this lady who was just like, thought ayahuasca was ashwagandha.

And it's really funny because she's like, you're telling me you're taking ashwagandha?

And she just like thought it was like ayahuasca the whole time.

And it's just.

And.

But honestly, I think that whole experience, that video, like, kind of is a very common thing.

Like people always like, you say ashwagandha and people are like, what, what is that?

Lucky frog.

It's a lot less vomiting.

Yeah, no, definitely.

Yeah.

Whole different experience from ayahuasca.

It doesn't open all of everything in your brain.

No, no, no, no.

It's much more inaccurate.

Yeah, it's like, I, I just, I don't know.

I always tell people it's like it's very low key.

Like, it's not.

It's not gonna mess you up in a way, shape or form.

So, you know, it's actually part of our whole sales pitch is that it's like, it's not intoxicating.

You won't get a hangover.

You can still drive after you drink one of these.

Like, it's not that crazy, but it does take the edge off, which is,.

You know, so you were mentioning that, you know, your partner was helping you with, you know, hey, when.

If you were thinking about this.

So she's more into this kind of stuff.

Is.

Did you End up well back then.

Yeah.

Did you end up learning a lot of that?

I did, yeah, totally.

I mean, you know.

I mean.

Yeah.

This whole thing started mostly because I, you know, back in the day, I was, like, looking for new business and, you know, originally Lucky Frog was actually going to be like a kid cannabis drink.

Sure.

And it's just such a tough environment.

Like, it's so rough.

Yeah.

It's.

It's not easy.

And it's like, it's certainly a category I enjoy.

You know, the beverages side of that is.

Yeah, me too.

Enjoyable and good.

But it's.

It is not one, I'd say, not easy to make something that is legitimately good.

Like, you have to really know how to balance flavors very well to make a drink.

Well, not only that.

And I mean, not only that, like, there's an added level of.

Okay.

It's really hard to actually, like, mix things with, you know, a cannabis and I make it taste good.

Yeah.

There's a lot of strategies there, like heirloom, you know.

You know, heirloom.

Yeah.

They're doing a good job, but there's also a lot of.

The drinks are so much sugar.

A ton.

And there's.

I'd say there's like one or two that were more successful, but you have to use the complementary flavors.

You have to understand how flavors balance.

To do something like that, because it is such a punchy and identifiable flavor,.

It really sticks out.

And on the business side of things is what really got me sold because, like, you know, it's one of the biggest downsides of, you know, cannabis drinks in general is that you're.

You are shipping water.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And there's a lot of other ways to intake cannabis that are, like, you know, much not as heavy.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

So, like, that's a whole thing.

And then there's also, you know, there's the regulatory element.

I mean, like, even, you know, it's getting.

Everyone in that industry is freaking out right now because of, you know, everything that's going on with the federal government and how they're scheduling, like, you know, hemp derived.

Yeah.

All that stuff can be.

Yeah.

Changes.

It can change so much.

Changes so much from one person, one administration, one year to the next.

Yeah.

And it's just a wild environment to start a business.

And I think I kind of just like, honestly really just stumbled into all of.

I was like, oh, you.

Wait, you're.

So you're saying.

You're saying I can make a drink that isn't it doesn't have to adhere to that crazy regulatory environment and also has, like, you know, I can sell it to a, like a gas station or like, or a fancy restaurant and anywhere in between.

You know, I mean, it's like, there is not nearly as much, you know, limitations in that regard.

And I don't know, I just thought that was really, like.

Once I realized that, I was like, oh, this is actually like a way better idea than starting a cannabis drink.

I don't think it's as well understood.

Like, people understand cannabis drinks.

You know what I mean?

They're like, okay, it gets me high, but, like.

And this takes a little bit more explaining, and that's kind of the main barrier there, but I think the potential is much greater.

Yeah.

So let's talk about.

Let's just go back to the beginning.

So before you started this, were you already doing.

Were you already entrepreneuring?

Were you working corporate?

What was your.

Where were you before you started this?

So this is a funny question for me.

I've always been very independent in terms of, like, my career, and that's had its, like, big downsides and upsides, I guess.

Sure.

For.

I guess I kind of stumbled into this, like, a business idea because I've always.

I'm a musician.

I guess I'm not as much of a musician as I used to be, but I stumbled into the world of Spotify for a little bit and we, you know, I mean, a few of my friends got, like, really good at identifying how it worked, and we basically just kind of, like, took on clients and, like, helped them, like, move up in their world of complete.

This is completely different from, like, what I'm doing now.

Well, I mean, it is and isn't.

Right.

So, like, that's.

That's something that, you know, I wouldn't label it as, like, algorithm arbitrage, but it kind of is in many ways like it is.

There's an understanding of how systems work.

Yes.

Which is core to anything.

Right.

Understanding the space, the beverage space.

Right.

You're just understanding what people are buying.

Right.

There's an understanding of sales numbers and everything else.

When you're talking about algorithms, that's what people pay for because they are difficult to understand as a layperson.

And if you get into the weeds, there's a value in that.

It's the same with a lot of, like, in many ways, understanding what a good social media manager does is understanding how the algorithm works, like, without knowing the code.

Like, hey, understanding.

Hey, what is the thing that brings you up the rankings brings you up visibility, you know, remember how many people made money on website search engine optimization for so long?

Like, this is the, this is a career that is.

Covers so many digital fields.

So I'm not shocked when you mentioned that somebody's doing that for Spotify because that happens in grocery stores to the same way as anything else.

I, you know, I guess keyword was because, like, it's one of those things where I think we were doing it independently for a little bit and like, it worked great until it didn't.

And you know, I guess that whole industry, I guess the tech industry, that's just kind of how it works.

But, you know, they, they probably realized at one point they're like, oh, there's all these like, guys out here doing this.

Like, we could just do that.

And then of course they can charge for it.

Yeah.

And so, like, you know, they started doing that and then like, you know, I, we kind of just like got, you know, boxed out of the industry, to use a sports term.

But like, yeah, it's.

And you know, there's Stephen Adams.

Doubt.

Yeah.

You know, giant man with, with grown man strength.

Just boxing you out, getting offensive rebounds over you all day.

Yeah, exactly.

And so, you know, we, yeah, we.

It was so.

The fall of that was so fast and very rapid.

And I mean, I kind of saw it coming.

So, like, I had a little, you know, my little pile of.

Of loot that I got from that.

And that was like, you know, that I, that was kind of what I used to be like, hey, how am I going to keep doing this?

I want to keep being independent.

Independent.

I really enjoy this.

That was, that was the thing I most realized from doing that was I was like, I was like, I really don't want to go back to having a normal job.

Yeah.

And so.

Well, there's a lot of appeal to that.

Right.

Like, I grew up in a small family business.

You know, greenhouse, Christmas trees, sports cards, other things like that.

My dad was a serial entrepreneur.

Right, right.

He did a lot of different things.

And you, you know, the greenhouse and Christmas tree stuck.

Right.

For 30 years.

But it's, it's not a, it's a, It's a thing for a specific person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's definitely not for everyone, I would say.

I like that.

That was a good.

I feel like my timeline has worked out pretty well because that was a good introduction.

I'd say it was more.

We got really lucky.

We identified like a, you know, we identified a market and we just like happened to just get right in there.

And it worked out really well for a little bit.

And then, you know, I think I realized at a certain point, I was like, okay, a big reason that we're doing so well is luck.

Sure.

And.

Which is often the case.

We shouldn't downplay timing because it's.

Luck is one way of describing it, which is true, but it's also timing.

Yeah, no, you're right.

And, like, you can't.

Like, it's hard.

There is obviously an element of luck to it, and we don't want to discount that.

I always think it's important.

Right.

But timing is seeing an opportunity and diving into it, right?

No, I guess, yeah.

That's a good way to put it.

And I think what it did help me with the most was actually being able to identify opportunities, you know?

Yeah.

I think, like, that that's the most important, like, skill that you get from a lot of these things is, like, because, you know, you're right.

You know, I say it was luck, but also, like, you know, I could have.

We could have just not done that.

Like, we could have seen.

I could have seen my friend, you know, doing it and been like, all right, and then moved on.

But, like, no, we identified it and we went for it, and it worked out so at least for a little bit.

And then, you know, leading on.

I guess that's kind of where I'm at now, because, like, I think with Lucky Frog, I was like, oh, wow, this actually.

This is a good opportunity.

You know what I mean?

Like, the.

There's a lot of things going for it, and I think that's kind of what made me just, like, go for it.

Because, you know, starting a CPG brand.

Oh, is.

You know, it's.

Can be tough at times.

Oh, it's not.

It's by no means a simple business.

No, no.

This is.

This is one.

It's a.

There's a lot of beverages on the market, and this is a complicated thing, which is why I think my next question, you know, we're going to dive into the.

You know, after the break, we're going to dive into, like, more of starting the business and everything else.

As somebody who, you know, done a couple, you know, a couple essentially independent things.

Do you see yourself as somebody that is always going to be a entrepreneur, and is it that you just don't think you fit into, like, a regular, regular day job structure, or is it just that, like, the process of doing this has its, you know, you know, suits the way you are?

I mean, I don't Know, I understand the pros of, you know, having a more regular job just because, I don't know, it probably, you know, the money's going directly in your pocket.

It's a whole different game.

But it's like, I don't know, I just.

I really enjoy the.

How it forces me to learn new things.

It forces me to, you know, get out and talk to people.

It forces me to, you know, just, like, really just get off my ass and like, you know, like, just get out and do shit and.

Yeah, like, I don't know.

I say I have a feeling that if I just, like, got a normal job, I would just end up, like, doing that and then, like, coming home and just, like, hanging out.

And like, I feel like I, you know, I wouldn't have as many friends, I wouldn't know as many people.

People I wouldn't, you know, be putting myself out there as much.

And I. I do like that.

It, like, forces me to do that.

You know what I mean?

Absolutely.

So, I don't know, I. I could go back to it, but I kind of.

I enjoy the freedom, like, that it.

That being independent gives me, even if it's more stressful.

And it also forces me to just get out and meet new people and be more social and just, I don't know, at the end of the day, I feel more accomplished, I guess.

Well, I like that, you know, and it's.

There is certainly an appeal, and I've done my versions of it over the years.

Right.

I ran a restaurant service for three years.

You've been doing the podcast thing for.

Geez, well over a decade, doing, like, my show.

And there's a great thing to having something that is purely yours, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Or not purely yours.

Of course, there's, you know, other people involved in everything else, but having something that is, hey, this is mine in many ways, is a very.

Not only romantic thing, but, yeah, it's great to put your mark on something.

Right.

Which is pretty cool.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I mean, I just.

I feel like I can be really flexible, you know, because, like, if I want to, I can just be like.

Like, you know, it might be irresponsible, but I could just, like, go.

I could go on vacation or whatever, whenever I want.

You know what I mean?

Like, I don't have to file, like, for vacation time or whatever.

Like, it's just, you know, and if I really want to, like, again, it's pretty irresponsible, but I can just, like, hang out and do nothing all day if I really wanted to.

I try not.

I don't do that most of the time, especially these days.

But, like, in the back of my head, I'm just like, I really can just do that if I want to.

Yeah.

Well.

Which is great.

I don't know.

Well, I'm certainly not going to ask your permission to go to break.

Yeah.

And we'll be right back.

Cool.

All right.

And we're back talking with Kyle Waldron from Lucky Frog.

Three flavors of Lucky Frog beverages you can find wherever you find Find beverages on their store.

Locator on LuckyFrogBeverages.com yeah, we also like.

Lori's Natural Foods and the co ops and stuff.

Ugly Duck, too.

You can go get it on your way in or out of Lucky Ugly Duck in other places.

Yeah.

Those are the kind of the common grocery spots right now.

And Rochester, at least.

Nice.

So I kind of wanted to dive in and talk about the flavors because I would say these are specific flavors, which is, I think, for me, like, one of the best things I can say about it is they are not generic.

Right.

Like, oh, I've seen how many?

And it's not to say it's a delightful flavor, but I've seen, you know, there's tons of passion fruit, orange and guava pog flavor.

There's tons of, you know, there's tons of, you know, mango, lime.

There's tons of this and that.

But these combinations are, I would say, are pretty specific.

Let's dive into, like, I'd say, you know, the first one, which is one on a beautifully colored can.

It's this, I don't know, fuchsia E color with, you know, a nice arched window where the logo is and the description, everything else.

But the flavors listed are plum, cardamom, and pomelo.

So just going through, like, the three flavors of Meyer lemon, basil and strawberry, I'd say that's pretty straightforward.

Meyer lemon, a little bit outside of what most people know, but accessible.

And then the newest one, which is mango, lime, and pandan.

So there's at least a few ingredients on here that are very specifically, very specifically, you know, either, you know, Chinese or, you know, East Asian.

Southeast Asian, you know, pomelo, we don't really see here in the US that much.

Pandan we don't see.

It's very Southeast Asian.

When you're coming up with these flavors, how did that process go?

What inspirations were you using to come up with these?

So I think I kind of tried to create a theme or maybe start with, like, an Ingredient and then stick to, like, a theme that made sense within that ingredients, like, culinary history.

You know what I mean?

I think with the plum.

The plum, pomelo, cardamom, that was, you know, when you have plum, you often have, like.

It goes well with, like, you know, in a lot of, like, Eastern dishes, it'll go well with, like, a cardamom and, you know, you'll get like a.

Like.

I guess the.

Where I started with it was like, okay, what do you.

We're putting ashwagandha in a drink.

Even if it doesn't taste like anything, it technically in the drink.

Like, what would you usually drink with an ashwagandha tea or something?

Like, what flavor would go well with that?

And that's just kind of where I got started.

I don't know if that's, like, what.

You know, where it continued.

But with the plum, pomelo, cardamom, that's kind of what I was going for.

I was like, okay, like, what if you were to drink, like, an ashwagandha tea or something?

Like, what would mix well with that?

And, like.

Well, pomelos are a fascinating fruit, too, because they're kind of the root of other citrus fruits of some of them anyways.

Like, grapefruits are descendants of pomelos.

Right.

They wouldn't exist without that fruit.

Like, you could have easily used grapefruit instead of pomelo.

But, you know, edging towards, like, hey, we're using this ingredient.

I think honoring that history is kind of nice, too.

Yeah, exactly.

And pomelo is.

Is kind of, like, I think, historically more common in that and that specific, like, I don't know, culinary practice.

And so, yeah, because it's very Southeast.

Asian, obviously transmits around the region to southern Asia, you know, where India is and, you know, other countries around the area.

Yeah, exactly.

So I think I kind of just tried to stay true to my ingredients and just, like, kind of stick with something that made.

Because.

All right.

So I guess my philosophy goes all the way back to.

I mean, obviously, everyone has heard of, like, salt, fat, acid, heat.

And I think, like, that whole thing, like, when that was a big trend, you know, there's a lot to say about all that kind of stuff.

I got really into, like, you know, I was like, especially during COVID I think I got really into, like, the food world and cooking and flavors, like, I'm sure a million other people did, because we had nothing else to do.

Sure.

But, you know, I think what I realized from, like, you know, reading.

Reading that book and like, watching the show is that, like, okay, an important part of flavors and cooking is kind of like, there is a formulaic aspect to it, and it kind of helps to be, you know, consistently combine three different things, and it doesn't always work, but that's usually the best way to kind of come up with, like, a really good combination or really good dish.

You know what I mean?

And one of.

One of the rules that I learned back then was that, like, you know, if you.

You want to, like, is.

This isn't always the case, but it.

It is good to start with a basis of a combination that is, like, kind of rooted in one culinary practice.

You know what I mean?

One or a culinary region, maybe you could say, I don't know, I could all be talking bullshit.

This is just kind of like how I do things.

No, it's.

I. I think it.

Well, it also gives you a window.

Right.

So restrictions.

Restrictions are not the.

It's not the thing to fight against.

Yeah, right.

A restriction gives you a window to be creative within, which is, I think, very effective.

And sometimes after a while, you can start to expand beyond that.

But learning how to do it.

Restrictions help a lot.

Yeah, totally.

And I think that's kind of where a lot of our flavors came from, where I tried to, you know, start with an ingredient.

And for plum pomelo, it did start with ashwagandha.

I don't.

I think we kind of, like, moved away from that for the other two, but I was kind of just, okay, what would, you know, we're going to have a drink with ashwagandha in it.

Like, what would you usually drink with ashwagandha, like, historically?

And that was kind of like where the plummellow cardamom came from.

Because, you know, cardamom is, you know, heavily used in, like, especially, like, Indian food.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Lots of Eastern dishes.

And, you know, and historically, it's always gone very well with plum.

And pomelo is kind of my addition of pomelo in there is a.

That's where the formula comes in for me, because, like, you know, I want a sweet element.

I want maybe like, a spice element to it.

Something they'll kind of like, you know, judge it up a little bit or add another element.

And then I also want a more, like, citrus or acidic element in there.

Yeah.

So this goes kind of back to the way, like, when I was taking my official, like, taking my wset spirits classes, or when people talk about the way if you're thinking about things in formulas instead of in, like, Recipes, Right.

So if you're thinking about things less as recipes, more as formulas, like, there's standard cocktail formulas that are not, you know.

Exactly.

Ratios don't matter.

Exact ingredients don't matter.

Once you have a formula, you can work around that and make everything like, you know, it's one of sweet, one of strong, you know, one of, you know, one of bright, you know, and one of something else.

Right, right.

And it's exactly what you're talking about.

Right.

You're talking about one of sweet, one of citrus, and one of herbaceous.

Right, exactly.

Right.

So it's complexity, you know, base and high.

Right, right.

So you're really talking about the same kind of thing, which is like, hey, what makes sense.

You're elevating something.

You're bringing complexity to it.

Yeah.

And that's.

That's a great recipe because that gives you so much opportunity to hit different cultural things.

Right.

Because everybody, you know, like you said, salt, fat, acid, heat.

There's a reason that Samin Nosrat wrote that book, because that's.

Every great culture understands that.

Yeah, exactly.

Like, it is kind of like a worldwide rule.

And that's like, where, like, you know, that you can get.

Eat good food, drink good drinks, like, all over the planet.

But I feel like that that formula is pretty consistent, you know what I mean, across every good culinary practice, you know?

And so, like, I tried to apply that to, you know, the drinks in general.

And I mean, you know, it is.

It is easier to just make like a, you know, like a strawberry, lime, like, soda or whatever.

For sure.

Yeah.

Especially, like, hey, you.

You now have to.

Every time you're selling this to somebody that doesn't know what it is.

Right.

Yeah.

To say, hey, hey, Kyle.

What is it?

What is a.

What is a pandan?

Yeah, what's a panda?

Yeah, we get that one.

What's a pandan?

I thought.

I thought they were.

I thought they were, you know, going extinct.

Yeah.

Pandans, even pomelo.

Yeah.

People and.

Oh, my gosh, it's so funny how many people are freaked out by putting basil in a tree.

Yeah.

I was gonna say, are you using seed or using leaves?

No.

So it's.

It.

Well, it's actually it.

It's an extract.

Oh, so it's basil already extracted, probably from.

Yeah, yeah.

Because once if you, you know, if you get real basil in there, it affects the expiration date quite a bit.

Oxidizes like crazy.

So, you know, and the way it came out was amazing.

And I also think it's a little less Intimidating, like, kind of how the extract works.

You know what I mean?

It's, you know.

Yeah.

There's no, like, actual, like, basil leaves in there.

I think that.

Yeah.

Might be scary to people.

I don't know.

Although I do.

I do love going to, like, an Indian market or, you know, West Asian market and getting some of those drinks that have the basil seeds in.

Oh, yeah.

No, no, no, no.

They're so good.

I mean, awesome.

I guess, like, those are fun.

And it's not for everybody because they're, you know, they have that like.

Yeah.

Tadpole egg, you know, slimy.

I mean, it's weird.

It's weird.

It's.

I think that stuff is super fun.

It's awesome.

Yeah.

But y. I.

There is a limit to how far you can go in order to appeal to the general public.

You know what I mean?

And so, like.

Yeah, that.

That's probably the limit.

So let's talk about the newest one, because it's a flavor I've really enjoyed is pandan.

I like it a lot.

To me, it has this very lightly green flavored vanilla.

Totally.

Which has.

Still has not quite the intense florality of like, you know, real, real vanilla.

Like, it doesn't have that, like, depth of florality that it does, but it's a really pleasant, comfortable vanilla flavor.

Totally adding that in there, which is a little bit different from the other flavors, like bringing that vanilla base.

It's very friendly.

Yeah.

Like.

Like, for me personally, it's just a hair too much and I want more citrus.

But I'm a. I'm a citrus nut.

Yeah.

That's fair.

So, like, for me, I always want more acidity.

I always want more of this.

But I could also see somebody saying, geez, I want more vanilla in there.

Yeah.

I think.

Well, that was.

I mean, when we were.

Which means it's probably close on the balance.

Yeah, no, like, literally, though, because the thing.

I mean, if you really want to get into it, the thing that it's.

It's actually kind of hard to get pandan to, like, come through in a drink like that.

Really?

Yeah, you would think it would because it's such, you know, if you.

If you taste like just a pure.

Pure pandan extract or like, you know, I don't know if you can get, like, pandan flavorings at, like, the bakery or whatever.

Like, if you ever tasted that, you're like, wow, it's really strong.

Oh, yeah.

Gosh.

But like, when you put it in a drink, for whatever reason, it's like, really mix it in There it's, like, really hard for it to kind of come through.

And so what ended up happening was we were just like, wow, we gotta use, like, a lot of pandan extraction to get it to, like, that, like, kind of, I don't know, come through in a way that, like, made it really obvious or not super obvious.

Just so that you knew that that was the flavor that was coming through in the drink.

Absolutely.

And so panda and extracts actually pretty expensive, so no surprise.

Yeah.

And so, like, we did kind of have to, like, you know, put a limit on that.

And part of that was, like, we did end up.

Because if you look in the ingredients, there is, like, a little bit of vanilla in there.

Yeah, it makes sense.

Much cheaper.

And we just.

We're just like, yeah, we should just try it.

Just see.

See what happens.

And it was really good.

So I don't know.

It is a great.

It is a truly great flavor.

And I think that's.

Right.

It's the result of how do you.

How do you balance.

How do you figure out.

Because it's not just flavor balance, it is cost balance.

Right.

It's repeatability balance.

It's all of the things.

Because you're not just thinking about one kind of balance.

You're thinking about all the kinds all at once.

Right.

It has to be, you know, fairly stable in the can.

It can't, you know, it can't ferment.

It can't do this.

You have to think about acidity for.

For all that stuff to make sure it's not growing anything inside.

Right.

When you're developing, like, all of that stuff to get to the limits you've been working with.

Working with a co packer, because this is.

You've worked on growing the brand and doing that.

How is that process gone when you're creating the flavors?

And how much help are they helping you understand all of those.

All those process things that are really important to both have a safe product, but a consistent product.

Right.

So I have a pretty good repertoire with our co packer, our secret co packer.

Because I think what.

Basically kind of what our arrangement looks like is like, I'll come up with a flavor combination.

I'll do some drink formulation.

I'll come up with some mounts, you know, get the beaker set up and, like, you know, do some weighing and come up with, like, what I think will work best.

And then usually I'll bring it to them and they'll be like, okay.

So that's wildly impractical for us to actually make it an Industrial scale, you know what I mean?

And so I'm like, okay, you know, all right, let's rework this a little bit and see if we.

We can, you know, make it.

Because, you know, I mean, making, like making one drink in a.

In a cup is very different than, like, making it, you know, making a massive, massive amount of it, like, on, you know, doing volume is very different than, like, making one drink.

So, like, you know, that's.

That's kind of where they come in.

I usually, I'm the one who, like, comes up with, like, the actual formulation itself, but then they'll help me adjust it to, you know, making it realistic to actually, like, produce like, a big volume.

Yeah, because that's.

It is a very specific process.

And also it helps you learn a lot about how does that work.

Yeah.

Because, you know, there's so much opportunity out there for you too.

And, you know, you cut out steps, you cut out hours on their side by understanding.

Yeah, totally.

Now how this works.

Because I'm assuming you've just learned a ton about commercial drink production at this point.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I know.

I know you know so many things about the costs of fruit purees now and how you can, like, buy.

I just think this is.

Stuff is kind of funny coming in from the outside.

It's.

But you can just get like, a barrel of, like, plum puree if you really want to, you know.

Oh, yeah, I don't.

I don't know.

I just, like, kind of find that concept funny.

I don't know.

It's.

I mean, commercial food production is such a different world that people, you know, we see the veneer of it in the grocery store, but the roots of how it works and, hey, how any restaurant works or any catering venue works, once you see the roots of how it works, you're like, oh, right.

It's just people doing stuff.

Right.

Right.

At some point, like, there's gotta be somebody that grew that fruit and threw it in a giant ass blender.

Yeah, totally.

And turned it into something you can use in commercial food production.

Right.

Yeah, just.

I don't know.

I've seen food in volumes that I never thought I would see before.

You know what I mean?

Like, just.

Yeah.

Multiple barrels of, like, a.

A specific kind of puree or, like, you know, giant, like, the most, like, extract, like, concentrated.

Like really concentrated flavors just in, like, giant containers.

And, like, you smell it and you're just like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm going to pass out.

Right.

It's.

It's fascinating.

So what I'm kind of intrigued about as we're edging towards the end of our episode is.

So you've been doing this.

So when did the brand end up starting?

I guess officially, I want to say, like, I don't know.

We launched our first flavor, and I guess it was kind of like more of a test to see whether this was actually like a thing that would work.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Because you always have doubts.

Now it seems like, oh, it was a home run, like, the whole time.

And I mean, it's not even a home run yet.

I don't.

You know, but, like, back then we were just like, is anyone even going to care about this, like, at all?

Like, it's at least a solid single.

Yeah, exactly.

And so, you know, that was kind of us like, dipping our toes in, and I would say that was in like, December of 24, so.

Okay, so really not that long.

You're talking a year and a half at this point, basically.

And I consider that that was just kind of like a beta test, you know what I mean?

Like, we're like, are people.

Do people want this?

Like, are people into it?

It's like, do people think it's going to taste good?

And we had a lot of great local feedback.

And so, you know, we expanded the product line.

And I feel like we're kind of going through, like, now.

Now we're actually starting.

You know what I mean?

Like, now there's actually a business here.

We have, you know, a complete product line.

Looks great on the shelves.

You know, there's a little bit of something for everyone in the three different flavors, you know what I mean?

And I don't know, it just feels like a complete product now.

So I feel like we're ready to, like, really get going.

And just.

Just for my own.

This is a fridge product when it's sold.

Or is it shelf?

Could be shelf you.

Okay.

That's one of the most amazing things about this product is that, like, it is shelf, stable.

It, like, doesn' go bad for like two years.

We don't even, like, I.

We don't even really have.

You know, we say to be safe.

I think it's like, like 14 months or something like that, but they really don't go bad.

That's awesome.

So wild.

One of.

One of.

So you are originally from Rochester or been here for a while?

No, well, I've been here probably like a decade now, but I am originally from New Jersey.

Okay.

So, you know, when you were launching this, you were obviously here already.

And as you're growing, do you see this as hey, this is going to be a Rochester based thing?

Is that, is that where you're currently at is hey, this is a Rochester based beverage.

This is where we're, this is where we're coming from.

Yeah, no, totally.

And you know, I mean, I guess there's all sorts of things that kind of go into that.

But yeah, we're as a company, we're based in Rochester and it's kind of, you know, we can go a bunch of different directions from here.

I think a lot of like our, if, if the business is going to be successful, it really needs to branch out.

Like it's a very volume heavy business, of course.

But yeah, the origin will always be here.

And I kind of do things with our pricing to, I wouldn't say enforce it, but you know, incentivize that.

You know what I mean?

Like, and it makes sense.

Like it's, it's cheapest, it's probably always going to be the cheapest to buy here, you know what I mean?

Or in our region.

But yeah, I mean, you know, Rochester based, but I need a lot of customers everywhere for it to work out, you know.

Yeah.

So let's talk about that.

So you're, you know, you just launched a third flavor and you're talking about in the break, but you were talking about like, hey, this is, you know, the first step was essentially, you know, you're driving everything.

You're really trying to ramp, ramp up awareness and visibility and everything else.

And obviously that's still important.

But for you as a business owner, what, what is the next step that you are focusing on right now?

You just launched your third flavor.

So what's the thing you're focusing on now as this is the next thing?

I guess that's a really businessy discussion.

I think it's got to be like one or two things in terms.

Well, I mean, I think we're always going to be focusing on our direct to consumer component, which is a thing I think a lot of people don't think about.

But you know, highest margins for you as a seller is to sell direct to people.

Yeah.

And, but it's also, it's a little bit more challenging because you have to do a bit more work and there's a lot more marketing involved.

So that's a big one.

And I think if we can expand on that, we'll be in a good place.

And then also I do think we, I've gone back and forth between like trying to, you know, should we self distribute.

Like, how do you deal with distributors?

Like, that's a whole conversation right now.

And I do think we are going to have to, like, find a more major distribution component, like, as part of our next step, kind of to branch out a little bit more.

And it's mostly just because it's a barrier.

It's a barrier, like, nationally, like, if.

If, like.

Yeah, because, like, I have.

I have, like, lines to, you know, like, distributors in, like, other states and stuff, but it's like, a lot of them won't even consider you unless you have, like a, you know, you have a big contract with, like, a chain in your region.

Right.

You have a Whole Foods contract, you have contract, you have something else that's significant.

And so when I started, I was just like, you know, I'm going to, like, grassroots.

I'm going to do it, like, all by myself.

And, like, you know, and I have.

I did self distribute and I have a.

You know, my.

My buddy Rob also helps out with, like, you know, we've kind of branched out a little bit.

We have a good agreement, but it is like, I don't know, there is going to be a point where we're going to have to branch out into some sort of either like a chain distribution setup or, like, I mean, we talk about wegmans.

We're not sure about wegmans either, but,.

You know, hey, make it up in value.

Yeah, I know.

Well, that's.

That's kind of the game, right?

Like, you know, it has to be at some point.

Volume is.

Is money in.

In this industry.

So, um, you know.

Yeah, that.

That is.

I would say that's probably the next big step is like, you know, probably trying to figure something out with, like, a bigger distributor.

Yeah, some.

Either that opportunity with, you know, you know, a larger organization to be able to raise your floor of volume to expand.

Right.

And then learn from there.

Which, as you said earlier, always learning.

Yeah, no, totally.

And I, you know, I think.

I don't know, I just wanted to be at a point with the business where I had some leverage of my own, because now I don't have to go to a lot of the big guys and be like, oh, my gosh, please put me on your shelves, please.

Now I'm kind of just like, okay, we have our own customer base, and that means I can negotiate with you a little bit.

You know what I mean?

Mean, I love that.

So we are going to close out for today.

I'd love to catch up in another year or whatever.

And let's talk about what's going on in the last X amount of time because I'm intrigued to see how you're developing and where things are going.

So plugs once again, you can go to Lucky Frog beverages.com.

You can also find it on shelves around town.

Yeah, shelves around town.

I mean, we're for sale on our website.

That's a whole other thing.

You know, there's, we're, we're for sale all over the country right now via a variety of like wholesale marketplaces online.

That's a whole nother rabbit hole to go down.

But yeah, if you, if you look up on our website, we might even if you're like listening from a different state or city, like we might be in a store near you, you just need to go look it up.

And yeah, you can always just buy off our website.

And yeah, our Instagram is lucky for our bevs at Lucky frogbevs.

Well, Kyle, thank you so much for coming over for an episode of the Food About Town podcast.

We'll be back with more very soon.

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