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193: Nurturing Workplace Culture: Lessons in Human-Centred Leadership with Kate Jones
16th February 2024 • Happier At Work® • Aoife O'Brien
00:00:00 00:49:09

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How can you create a happier and human-centred work environment?

In the latest episode of The Happier at Work podcast, I sat down with the incredible Kate Jones to explore the importance of understanding well-being and the impact of leadership on creating deeply human organisations. Kate shared her wealth of knowledge from her experience in the probation service and as a leadership and life coach, emphasising the significance of building relationships and establishing a healthy workplace culture.

The thought-provoking conversation touched on various aspects, including the need to redefine success beyond traditional measures and the importance of creating conditions for change by understanding individual and environmental factors. Kate also introduced the "5 C's" model for deeply human leadership: clarity of purpose, connection, consciousness, creativity, and care.

We delved into the impact of leadership on organisational functions and the necessity of interconnecting relationships for effective leadership. Kate's insights shed light on the challenges of creating deeply human organisations and how leaders can prioritise meaningful work, foster connection, and provide a sense of belonging and growth for employees.

This episode offers valuable wisdom on finding fulfilment and making a meaningful difference in professional careers. 

The main points throughout this podcast include:

  • The impact of leadership on creating deeply human organisations.
  • The "5 C's" model for deeply human leadership: clarity of purpose, connection, consciousness, creativity, and care.
  • The challenges of creating deeply human organisations 
  • How leaders can prioritise meaningful work, foster connection, and provide a sense of belonging and growth for employees.

 

Connect with Kate


Instagram: www.instagram.com/neon_living

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/katerjones 

Website: www.deeplyneon.com


Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!


Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

Website: https://happieratwork.ie 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aoifemobrien/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/happieratwork.ie/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/happieratwork.ie

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@HappierAtWorkHQ

Twitter: https://twitter.com/HappierAtWorkHQ 


Transcripts

Aoife O'Brien [:

Kate, you're so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I know we had a fantastic conversation last year, and we've been talking about doing this for a while now. Yeah. Finally, the day has come. I'm really thrilled to have you as my guest day on the Happier at Work podcast. Would you like to share a little bit about your background? Let listeners know how you got to where you are today.

Kate Jones [:

Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. You're right. It's been it's been a while coming. So, my name is Kate Jones. I'm a leadership and life coach, And I'm the founder of Neon. Neon is a coaching company that, in the main, specialises in working with leaders and helping them create more deeply human organization. More about that later.

Kate Jones [:

I have I founded Neon, 11 years ago, perhaps it's 11 years this month, I've been writing a blog post this morning about comparing Neon as an 11 year old business to an 11 year old girl with all the characteristics of the sort of preteen, into and I'm on a bit of a mission really to change the the world of work, And to make it a more human and more sustainable place to be for people, a less brutal place to be for people, And also to help more people to live, lead, and work well. So kind of well-being and happiness in your language is a very kind of major part part of what I do and a and a huge passion of mine and also a sort of ongoing quest of mine, I guess, just as a a human being in my own right, both both in my work and in my life. So In terms of how I got here, I spent my my career has really kind of gone in 3 chapters a so far, which have all been about 10 years. So with 11 years with me on, this is proving to be the longest the longest chapter to date. But the 1st 10 years, I actually trained as a social worker and a probation officer, straight after leaving university where I'd studied languages and worked mainly as a probation officer in the criminal justice system in London in community court and prison settings, That was all about kind of enabling individuals, albeit in a certain kind of setting, to change their behaviour. So I was very much powered by a sense social justice. I'm very interested in how the relationship between probation officer and client could help an individual navigate a process of behavioral change. And then through a period of a couple of years where I worked in Romania, kind of helping the Romanians experiment with the idea of community penalties for juveniles, which led to the establishment of the probation service in Romania.

Kate Jones [:

I then changed course and, to cut a long story short, I joined a management consulting company where I was mainly I worked for the most part in their public sector, practice. So, from sort of personal change to how do organisations change and leadership development and culture change. And after 10 years of being there, I left in order to set up my own Well, I say in order to set up my own business, it was not that kind of planned and coherent. You know, it'd be nice to say, oh, yes. I've made it all kind of really clear, and this is the plan, and this is what I did. But it It happened in a much more organic way than that. So yeah. And that kind of pretty much brings me up to, 2024 and and Neon has been going for 11 years.

Kate Jones [:

And my work has kind of evolved over that time, but there have been some sort of golden threads both through those 11 years and also through the however many years it's been since I've been actually working.

Aoife O'Brien [:

What have those golden threads been? Like, how would you describe that?

Kate Jones [:

I think one of them is definitely a sort of fascination with, why people behave in the way that they do and what enables people and organisations to change. So it started off obviously in a fascination with why people choose to offend and different types of criminal behaviour and the sense of, you know, what's the a What's the most effective way of enabling those individuals to change from a systemic point of view in terms of prison settings or the kind of probation system a and community system, kind of what enabled people to to change what is often a quite, you know, quite extreme way of living and behaving. So a fascination with how people, how people why people behave in the way they do and what enables them change, the same with with organizational systems, but then also what does it mean to be well? You know, what does it mean to sort of navigate this this, this thing called life in a in a way that is that feels that feels okay. And ideally, I mean the whole neon thing, The reason my business has called me on, it's a very, you know, the sort of vibrancy of I mean, for me, living well is to a large extent about it's about living with a capital l, it's not about existing and it's about living, finding a way of living that is my way that I'm choosing not out of habit or expectation or routine or fear But I'm choosing actively, proactively because and it's not, you know, and that goes in terms of life choices, work choices, the kind of the whole gamut of things. So I talk about neon as being around, helping people to live, lead and work well and those things for me are very Intertwined. You know, you can't you can't talk about leading without talking about, well, how is it that that individual as a leader is living themselves a And therefore, what of themselves do they bring to their, leadership role? How much of ourselves in our work lives do we bring to our a life. How much do we choose to bring? How much do we choose or feel that we're forced to leave behind at the door when we come to work? All of that stuff is the stuff that I'm And a very passionate interview. You can tell.

Aoife O'Brien [:

So we could talk about that all day, I think.

Kate Jones [:

Yeah. Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien [:

Something that struck me that what you said in the introduction was this idea of it being an ongoing quest. So not just Yeah. For organizations, but book for yourself as well. And I think that's such a nice way to think about it because sometimes we look at people and think they have everything figured out, that they've reached a certain stage or a certain level. But the the more I know or the more I learn, the more I realize this whole thing of life is a journey. And I know some people don't like that term. They don't like to use that word journey or they don't really get it. But I think sometimes we expect to arrive at a destination at some point.

Kate Jones [:

Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien [:

But we don't. Like and maybe not to be too morbid about it, but death is is the kind of guarantee The destination.

Kate Jones [:

Destination. Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien [:

Exactly. So, I mean, I'd love to to explore some of these concepts in the idea that it is an ongoing quest and maybe share some of the learnings that you've had. I just want to reiterate some of the golden threads you shared, and it's about why people behave the way they do. And I think it's such a fascinating thing. And I'd love to understand the links maybe between the criminal behavior and leadership behavior. Maybe there are some links. Maybe there are

Kate Jones [:

There are some worrying links. Probably. Yeah. That's what I wondered. Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien [:

A, how organizations change. And obviously, organizations are made up of people, so that's gonna rely very heavily on people and groups of people. And what does well-being mean? Like, what does it mean to to be well? And I think that's that's such a powerful question. And, again, maybe pause for thought for anyone who's listening today because the the word well-being is bandied about so much, but have you given thought to, well, what does being well actually mean to me? And what's my quest for being well? Love this idea that living with a capital l, it's not out of habit. It's not out of expectation, routine, or fear. And again, pause for thought for anyone who's listening. Is there something that you feel that you're doing because it's expected of you, that you've just got into this habit of doing it that you're finding yourself in this routine rather than actively making the choice about how you want to live your life. And I I love this, Kate, that it is all intertwined.

Aoife O'Brien [:

It's the leadership piece. It's the life and how I can bring myself fully to the work that I do and not have to check myself at the door when I come to that office, when I come to that remote workspace, whatever it might be, that I can show up fully and authentically as myself and be myself and still perform well and and be in that right place. So do you want to maybe I mean, we can start with this idea of, like, why why people behave the way they do and the links that you've seen throughout your career.

Kate Jones [:

Gosh. Well, I mean, one of the things you mentioned was that I've just Yeah. It's a bit of a can of worms. Yeah. It's kind of where where to begin. Certainly in terms of I often used to I often still do joke, actually, when I when I'm running sessions with groups in particular, And, you know, when they first meet me and, and I am introducing myself, and I mentioned the work I did in the in the probation service, and I will often say the best grounding I had for working in business was working with people in the probation service, and I was working with in the criminal justice system. I mean, I know there's actually quite a lot of research about the links between psychopaths and chief execs. But, I I think it was it was more really in terms of, I mean, obviously, what an incredible grounding I had in terms of needing to learning how to establish relationship and relationships that could be a vehicle for change than working with people from all different walks of life, who were engaged in, you know, different levels of offending behaviour, you know, some of which, I mean, Some of which was really not very serious at all all the way through to people who were, in terms of the probation service involvement, kind of on remand in custody for much more serious offences.

Kate Jones [:

But I think that's the main thing really in terms of what what I learned. I mean, it was yeah. It was the most incredible training ground for Any kind of relational work. I mean, I would say that all all work is relational actually because we're all, no matter what our job is, We are, for the most part, we can't do our work in isolation from every other human being on the planet. I can't think of any of any Unless you're, I don't know, some sort of holy person on a mountain, I can't imagine that there are any jobs where you're working totally in isolation from other human beings. So that relational kind of component is really key and is absolutely central to the work that I do now, which is predominantly coaching, And is also central, I think, to, well-being in the workplace and what I call human organisations that a Rather than having transactional cultures where it's, well, I'm going to talk to you, we'll be nice to you, we'll be polite to you, or ask you how your weekend was because I have a something that I need you to do, which I think is often the way cultural models kind of evolve in organisations, but it's genuinely a culture based on relationship where there is a strength, a sense of connection between people. People actually know each other and the number of teams that I work with who really don't know anything about each other really at all. There's such a superficial level of connection between people.

Kate Jones [:

So, that kind of building relationship is absolutely central to me, to the work that I do, and to my belief around some of what constitutes kind of healthy and deeply human organisations. In terms of kind of what enables people to change, which was actually actually your question, I think it's, there's a whole lot of different conditions that need to coalesce, I think, in order for somebody to be able to make a choice to change and for that change to happen and to be sustained over time and that becomes even more complex, I guess, when you're talking about systems kind of being successful in changing. I mean, the first thing is there has to be the motivation, the actual motivation and the readiness to change in the individual. It's partly why I think my individual coaching work can sometimes feel more rewarding than, team coaching work because in an you know, with an individual, it's simpler. You have 1 individual who's making a commitment and an financial investment a in the coaching journey, and that usually means that, you know, they're up for it, they're ready, they're they're in. Whereas with a team, I know there might be of the 10, 12, people in the room. There might only be, I don't know, a third of those who are actually ready, who believe that there's something that needs to change. But then there's a whole kind of effect of conditions around, the environment and the extent to which an environment conducive to how many obstacles are standing in the way of a team or individual to, to enable them to bring about the change that they want, so it is it's a it's a process and it's definitely not a linear process, you know, it's sometimes a question of circling around again and again.

Aoife O'Brien [:

Yeah. No. It's really interesting. And I'd love to come back to this idea of connection and relationships and being more human at work. And this idea that and I think you're totally right. There's so many organizations. And I've I've been in those organizations. I've worked there where it is very a transactional relationship.

Aoife O'Brien [:

There might be a social club, but you don't really know people on a deeply human level. You know, really connecting in a deep way. It is more that transactional for me at least. It felt that way. So what do you think are the keys to building that better connection, having those better, more deeply human relationships at work?

Kate Jones [:

Well, I mean, I'm a big believer that it comes down to leadership. I mean, you know, the work that I do is, In terms of creating deeply human organisations, I don't think leadership can do everything, but I think you can't do anything without Without the leadership. So I think leadership is an absolutely critical contributor to the creation of cultures and that you also need a set of infrastructure that supports and promotes and embeds and establishes that culture, but without leadership, I think you're you're you're nowhere. So, You know, in the 1st place, you need to have leaders who believe in the necessity and and value of relationships who believe in, you know, Margaret Hefferman, did an amazing TED talk quite a long time ago now about social capital She talks about she gives this, I've never forgotten this little introduction that she gives where she talks about an experiment that was done with super chickens. And it was a about trying to breed a, a kind of a type of super chicken that was going to be super productive and lay a kind of, you know, extraordinary number of eggs. I'm probably totally misremembering this this this story, but what ends up happening is that the super the super chickens kill each other. They peck each other to death. Rise.

Kate Jones [:

And she tells this story as a kind of platform for jumping off into talking about, you know, social Capital, it should be every organization's unique selling point, you know, the kind of network of social connection and a bond of of sorts between people is what enables creativity and innovation and fulfilment and happiness, As opposed to competition, which is obviously the sort of super chicken experiment thing, where there might be superstars, but really the collective is, is missing out. So I think, you know, leaders having leaders who not only believe in that, who believe in the power and necessity of that, but who are also capable and skilled in a Developing those relationships themselves, is the most important thing in my view. And that also means, like, really small really little things, like investing in thing in time for your team to connect with each other. You know? Because we're so obsessed with tasks. You know, there's always a massive to do list of tasks that need to be done. Delivery, delivery. And I'm as interested in high performance as anybody. The question is how best to do it.

Kate Jones [:

And I believe that people who feel more connected with the team and, you know, those working around them and with their boss And with the people that work for them are more likely to feel inspired and motivated and purposeful and Task and therefore deliver task than people who are feeling isolated and treated like a machine rather than a human being.

Aoife O'Brien [:

Yeah. A 100%. No argue no arguments from me on that whatsoever. But I I mean, I loved everything that you had to say. This idea of the super chickens. I think it's a really great analogy that people will remember. You know, that it's and I'm kind of thinking the pecking order that we talk about and hierarchical and all that kind of stuff. Like, not that I was gonna say we need to get rid of that.

Aoife O'Brien [:

It's not that we need to get rid of that completely, but I think flatter organizations are the way forward and lateral moves and people working to their strengths, this idea of social capital and how using the relationships that you have internally as a competitive advantage. And to me, that's, a again, it goes back to this idea of culture that you've mentioned as well and having those leaders that have that believe in this in the 1st place and don't believe in creating this really hyper competitive environment where there's, excuse me, there's one kind of job opening, or there's 1 promotion opportunity and there's 5 people going for it, which means that 4 people are left disappointed. There could be external candidates as well, in in which case maybe 5 people are left disappointed because there is only this one opportunity. And, you know, a story for another day. But, like, I think this whole concept of performance management drives a lot of that as well. So the conversations that we have around performance and how it's focused on the past, it's not necessarily focused on people's careers, where the organization fits in with those careers and how they can best utilize the organization and work to their strengths and have a mutually beneficial relationship where they are progressing in their career and the organization is getting the best of them as well at the same time. Yeah. I mean, there's

Kate Jones [:

Totally agree. Yes.

Aoife O'Brien [:

So much that we could talk about in relation to that, I think. But maybe starting at the point where where people are. Where do you see when you're working with individuals or organizations. Where do you see that they are? And I'm thinking very much from the competitive perspective. So is are they working in environments where there's a lot of competition? And how do you kind of go about addressing that as a starting point?

Kate Jones [:

I'm not sure the extent to which competition necessarily features, but the silo working thing come come Yeah. It's a sort of it's, I think, probably a feature of pretty much every organization that I've worked with over the last 25 I belong here. I don't know how many years it's been. 20 year, 21 years. You know, and how And I again, I think the the the reason so in other words, you know, people are sort of even within leadership teams, their, you know, individual representatives in the leadership team are much more focused on their own particular department or function or program or whatever depending on what the the business is. They're much more focused on that than they are in it's almost like they're facing outwards from the circle of the leadership team to face their own area of responsibility, and they're not really facing in and seeing the leadership team itself as their number one team. Whereas in reality, you know, really you should be you are wearing 2 hats. You will have a shared response.

Kate Jones [:

You will have a collective responsibility for the totality of the organisation a business and you also have an individual responsibility for your particular area of, of the organizational responsibility. So, That that occurs, I would say, 90% of the time. And is an impediment to performance. And it is in part it's a you know, in systems theory, they talk about, loyalty within organizational systems, Though often individual leaders are most loyal actually to their own teams for which they are responsible rather than The senior leadership team itself. And that and that can that can create difficulties in terms of, overall performance because there is a sort of unspoken, let's Call it a kind of competition of sorts or a kind of understood to look after my swim lane and do what I can there.

Aoife O'Brien [:

Well, then you're competing for resources, aren't you? You're competing for money, budget, you're competing for time. You know, it creates this sort of disconnect maybe between teams. And I've had that before in an organization and I worked in where we went from being an account manager, so managing multiple parts of the account, to then 3 separate teams managing very specific roles within the account management functionality, but that caused a lot of competition. And, well, who is the real account manager? Who owns this client account. All of this kind of stuff, like putting people into separate buckets, I think it's just it it just is a recipe for creating that siloed type of work. And I was so surprised because I could see in the general marketplace, people were moving more towards generalist roles rather than specialist roles. And and so when our organization made that decision at a global level, I just it just really shocked me and frankly, did not work at all.

Kate Jones [:

Yeah. It's it's I think it is really tricky, isn't it? Because you have to have some kind of structure. I know Instructure does have a a contribution to mindset. It does kind of influence the way in in which people Think and Behave, but it is the mindset that needs to be changed sometimes rather than just move the deck chairs and then imagine that people are going to start a different. And so, you know, sometimes the the work that I do with leadership teams is about creating a different sort of mindset, a different sense of relationship, a different sense of, like, Team identity that is more coherent and more cohesive where there's a stronger, you know, a stronger bond and a stronger sense of loyalty and a stronger sense of this is, you know, this is my this is my a team. This is my number one team.

Aoife O'Brien [:

Yeah.

Kate Jones [:

Yeah. But it takes time, you know, those things, It's not something that happens, possibly as hell. One one magic session where suddenly everybody's kind of, you know, behaving in a different way, unfortunately.

Aoife O'Brien [:

This good bit. And I think a lot of people want this quick fix approach that they think that they're gonna bring someone in and have a box ticking exercise decide for, you know, for want of a better word, that they bring someone in and everything's gonna change overnight. Really, you need to diagnose what the underlying issues are to begin with. And like there's a couple of things that I want to pick up on that you mentioned. The the first one is this idea that, being on the leadership team that your number one team is the other leaders in that team. And I think to progress in any sort of organization. You need to think strategically about what the business is trying to achieve. So you can't just focus on your own function.

Aoife O'Brien [:

You need to be aware a of the impact that you have on those other functions that you need to interact with in order to do your job as well because it is an interdependent relationship. So that's the kind of internship. So that's the kind of first area I'd love to explore a little bit. And then the second is kind of tying back to to what you said earlier about about the people so if, like, if you're working with teams, for example, then you have as you mentioned earlier, maybe there's only a third of those people who who want to make that change or who don't want to make that change, whichever one it is. But there are people within that team who don't fee who don't think that anything needs to change whatsoever. So how do you address that?

Kate Jones [:

Well, in relation to the first one, a You were talking about impact, basically. You know, the impact of 1 kind of bit of the organisation or the leadership team on another. I mean, I going back To my sort of definition of deeply the deeply human is a term that I that is that is my term to describe organisations that Ideally, you're a force for good on the outside in terms of the work that they do in the world, I. E. Purpose beyond profit to some degree, and then also a a falsehood on the inside in terms of the type of culture that they have, which is treating people like human beings, not like, You know, what's the word? Finite commodities. Because, you know, there are so many organisations out there where people are on their knees. I I mean, you know, as well as I do that, you know, the levels of stress and burnout are ridiculously high and unsustainable. You think, are we just using up our entire workforce across the planet.

Kate Jones [:

So, I have the model of what deeply human leadership looks like for me is what I call the 5 c's, 2 of which we've talked about already. So the first one, actually, I talk about clarity of purpose, so having a sense of purpose both on an individual and on a collective level, so ideally in a leadership team, there being a very clear and shared sense of purpose, like why is this team here. Why is this organisation here? But also within that clarity of purpose, individual leaders being able to bring that to life On a day to day basis for their teams because often even in purpose led organizations, you find people are totally disconnected from their sense of purpose, which is why they joined in the first place because they're lost in the endless hamster wheel of activity day to day. So the clarity of purpose. Second is connection, which we've talked about, which is about relationship, policy of relationship. The third is consciousness, which is all about impact in all sorts of ways. So first of all emotional intelligence a degree to which leaders understand and can read the room, can manage their own emotions can are aware of the impacts that they're having, intentionally and unintentionally on others. Again, both As an individual, but also their team or their part of the organisation impacting on other parts of the organisation, and the impact of the organisation in the wider world, so the whole kind of business a Good sort of stuff.

Kate Jones [:

Then there's creativity which for me is about kind of creating environments of belief where anything is possible As opposed to cultures where people are just doing loads of stuff but without much of a sense of I mean, I'm often feeling very disillusioned or demoralised about the extent to which any of it is possible or they're making any progress. And finally, Care is the 5th C. First of all, self care, so leaders having an imperative really to look After themselves and to know what it is that they need in order to be at their best. There's nobody can lead well when they're fed up, frustrated, exhausted, etcetera. And then care for, the people that work for them, with them and ideally also care for those living in the communities in which those organisations kind of operate. So that's really that sort of model informs all of the work that I do in organisations, you know, be it with individual leaders or with, or with teams, is trying to Build leadership capability that contributes to the health of an organisation in that way. So that was quite a long answer to your question about sort of, impact. But it's really important because it's kind of, You know, it's right.

Kate Jones [:

It's kind of right at the heart of me in terms of what I believe is needed, And what makes the most difference really in terms of, you know, having organizations where people can really thrive rather than, you know, something far worse or far less.

Aoife O'Brien [:

I think it's, it's a really, really nice clear way of describing it as well. And I suppose my question on that, and maybe it relates to that second part of of what I was wondering about, you know, when when a team is required to change. Yeah. And maybe some of them don't want to make that change. But but also slightly related to that is of those 5 different areas that you mentioned, and I'm gonna repeat them again for listeners. So the clarity of purpose, the connection, gin, the consciousness, creativity, and care. Which one of those areas is there is there maybe a common area that that generally leaders fall down in or does it really depend on the context? I suppose I'm I'm looking for, is there a link kind of globally speaking of where we, as leaders, are not meeting expectations or kinda living up to what we should be doing to create this human workplace.

Kate Jones [:

That's a really good question and tricky question to answer. I don't I don't think I don't think that there is. I think it varies a lot. You know, if you were to do a diagnostic within each within, You know, organisations in of different sizes and different geographies and different sectors in industry. Each each output of that diagnostic would look slightly different. I think, I mean, in purpose led organizations, so I do quite a lot of work in the humanitarian and charity and international development sector. You know, they would they would They would mark highly on clarity of purpose, although not necessarily on the aspect of bringing purpose to life Day to day, like, creating pathways to meaningful work for people because, again, in in those factors, people are also feeling Just stuck in the churn of a massive to do list. Yeah.

Kate Jones [:

But I would say that they fall down on, Well, in again, intentionally or unintentionally, a lot of people feel uncared for, feel disconnected An uncared for in their organizational environment. They don't fit. I mean, this I know and, you know, there's a whole question about, you know, what enables people to feel Happy at Work. In the last year, actually, I've developed this thing called the Neon Work Thriveometer, which is made up of 10 kind of factors which from from research and reading and experience, I think contribute most to to enabling people to to thrive at work. And it's quite a long list for people to get right, you know, and it and it and it also varies from, you know, what you might want from work is kind of different from what I might want from my life at work. But I think having a sense of connection to, am I doing something meaningful? Am I Do I have a sense of any sort of connection with the people that I work with? You know? Do I have some sort of voice in, you a The way things have done, do I have any sort of sense of belonging? Am I doing am I growing or learning at all? You know, these are some of the things that I think really make a difference people and that's why I'm, you know, on this mission to I mean, it's kind of like ridiculously, what's the word, kind of it's just a huge mission, but I do believe that sort of individual leader by individual leader and individual team by individual team, we can a make a difference to, the world of work and how people experience it.

Aoife O'Brien [:

Yeah. A 100% agree. And that is it, that it needs to be done one by 1. And I suppose that's part of the reason I have this podcast. So if people can listen, they can feel inspired. I encourage people to vote with their feet. If they're not happy where they are, what can they do to change that? And do they need to leave that organization? Or is there something that they can change? And then the leaders who are listening to this to create that better environment for people and have those frameworks that they can think about, that they can apply to their own organizations, that they can connect with people who have come on the podcast and they can find out more about what they do, as well as finding out, you know, and and me sharing more about what what it is I do to help organizations as well. Kate, something that comes up a lot on the podcast.

Aoife O'Brien [:

And I you've mentioned it a couple of times in our conversation, and I want to drill into it a little bit more and get your perspective. And that's this idea that people are stuck in the churn of tasks. And so many people listening today will will relate to that. And again, this is a can of worms question, but I can't think of any other way to ask it other than what's your perspective on that? Like, what can we do?

Kate Jones [:

Well, I think it's it's not only an organizational thing, first of all. It's not only a symptom of organizational life. I think it's a symptom of life generally. I think, you know, we are we we're living in a time where there's a sort of epidemic of doing. We're sort of obsessed with things that we have to do, in and out of work and there's never enough time to do all the things we want to do or have to do. And, and, you know, obviously in organisational life it's kind of amplified a sort of 1,000 fold, but you you know, I I've got no issue personally. No issue. I mean, I a enjoy being busy but busy, I mean not like unsustainably working 14 hour days kind of every day and feeling completely exhausted every time I wake up in the morning.

Kate Jones [:

And what's even worse on top of that, having no sense of Doing anything valuable or making any progress. I think of 1 client organization that I'm working with at the moment where that is their reality, you know, they're working leadership team working flat out 14 hours a day. And they've been working at that sort of capacity, kind of almost in crisis mode for as long as I've Been working with them, which is a year. And, you know, I just think my goodness. I mean, on a performance level that doesn't really seem to make any sense because I'm not sure they're making they can't making that much progress, but on a human basis, it's kind of like But I think that, you know, the the the act of stopping the doing, pausing the doing and taking moment to think about, to question and to think about, you know, am I doing the right thing kind of It's it's really an incredibly courageous act because everything around us is telling us that, you know, doing stuff is full equal, happy, equal, doing living well, you know. So that whole kind of thing between being and doing that, you know, distinction between, you know, what does it mean to what does it mean to be happy? Does being happy mean having ticks off your to do list? Even if, say what, you know, it wasn't you're still feeling the same at the end of that to do list. Or does being happy mean stepping away from the sort of hamster wheel of doing and finding, to some degree or another, and Finding a different way of engaging with life and work. Part of the reason I stepped away from My consulting my corporate consulting career was because it felt relentless.

Kate Jones [:

And I I didn't feel in control of it. It felt that it was It was knackeling. It was there was never a moment where it didn't feel like there was ever a moment where there was a pause. There was always something extra show that was being demanded of me. And, you know, the big I wanted to part of the change that I wanted to make And that transition was, well, what has definitely emerged over 11 years. I mean, I'm not suggesting that. Goodness gracious. It's an ongoing quest for me in terms of finding the right balance between doing and being, you know, and partly because there's such pressure.

Kate Jones [:

You know, people want, how are you? I'm really busy. How are you? I'm like, well, you know, Sometimes I say that, and it's almost like an unintentional badge of honor. Oh, I'm really busy. That that means I'm being what

Aoife O'Brien [:

does that mean? What does that mean? Means that

Kate Jones [:

you're doing loads of stuff.

Aoife O'Brien [:

Kate, it means you're so super important, and you don't Exactly. Anyone else.

Kate Jones [:

Exactly. Exactly.

Aoife O'Brien [:

So so important. I'm so important. But I think I mean, what you're saying absolutely resonates me, and I think it will resonate with a lot of people. And, you know, one thing that that when I still worked in corporate, one thing that we used to complain about was that we didn't have time for thinking. There was no time for thinking. But I think then then you're in victim mode if you're saying, well, I don't have time to do this. Don't have time to think about what needs to be done. It's like, no.

Aoife O'Brien [:

You need to decide that you are taking that time. Take out an hour of your week. And think really think what needs to be done, what's going to move the dial on the objectives I have for myself, the objectives the team has, the objectives the department or the organization has, whatever level you're looking at. And really think about what needs to be done. And I think that's where we need to to make that break and say, you know, stop saying I don't have time. If you take that hour. You might find your time freeing up because you realize that you're not working on the right things. Or like I when I'm talking about productivity, I always like to talk about quality and time.

Aoife O'Brien [:

So what's the quality that is required on this? And what's the time investment that's required? And I haven't read his book yet, but I'm very aware of it and I it's on my list to read this year is Get Things Done by, and his name just case now, David. I'll put the link in the show notes anyway, but his name has just gone out of my head. But he has this whole methodology called get things done. And I saw him on a LinkedIn live last year. And the one thing that I took from that video was, what does don't look like? Oh my god. Mhmm. I'm getting goosebumps even thinking about it now. What does dawn look like? Does anyone know? You know, do you clearly define when your work is dawn and what that done actually looks like.

Aoife O'Brien [:

And I think people don't. And so you get to a stage and you're like, oh, well I can make that fancier or I can spend a bit of time on that. Or if you're a perfectionist, a recovering perfectionist, I like to call myself, you know, you might spend extra time putting the bells and whistles on something that doesn't really require it.

Kate Jones [:

I actually feel quite moved by that. You know, you think on a on a human level, millions or billions of people Living their lives kind of with a sense that their work is not done and not even being able to define when it will be done. A I mean, work in the broadest sense, you know. Yeah. When have I done enough?

Aoife O'Brien [:

Causes the hamster wheel, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. You know?

Kate Jones [:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that sort of you know, the the pressure and the expectation, the sense of constantly, no. No.

Kate Jones [:

I'm not good enough until I've done this, until I've the next promotion until until I've, you know, whatever it whatever it might be. And that's you know, because some of the work that I do is also life coaching, which is, you know, really Often, there's a massive crossover, but life coaching is obviously paid for by the individual rather than by the organization. And it's not necessarily got any well, it hasn't got anything to do with leadership. Often the people that find their way to me are people who are wanting to tackle that sort of question. You know, people for Probably I call it in a sort of early midlife, so sort of from mid to late thirties through to fifties, ish, who were beginning to question, like, is this is this really the way that I

Aoife O'Brien [:

want to Is this all is this it? Is this how I want to spend my time?

Kate Jones [:

Yeah. I

Aoife O'Brien [:

think we all get to that stage. We all get to that stage at some point. And you start kinda questioning, what is it that I'm doing on a day to day basis. And, you know, I was gonna say there's lots of solutions out there. But really, it's it's about introspection and having someone to guide you through that introspection, I think is is really powerful as well.

Kate Jones [:

Yeah. And I think a lot of it is to do I mean, I imagine that you you've been through Something similar. I definitely went through something similar, which led me to kind of, you know, set up my own business. But there's a there's an ongoing thing for me about, you know, What what does what does it mean to be successful? Right. Redefining success and there's a traditional model of success, which is which has got a lot to do with Money and status and Yeah. Busyness and

Aoife O'Brien [:

And state. Position.

Kate Jones [:

You know, fame

Aoife O'Brien [:

and recognition. Yeah. Absolutely yeah.

Kate Jones [:

But if you start to redefine it in terms of fulfilment, in terms of quality of relationship, in terms of, self expression I'm talking about for myself really in terms of some of the things that in terms of freedom, in terms of adventure, in terms of, you know, I don't know. There's all kinds of different ways of defining success which, which are not necessary which are not mainstream and which can feel very hard to move towards, but that's definitely quite a lot of the work The idea with, individuals who are wanting beginning to want something different for themselves. Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien [:

I love that. So Kate, we've come to the end of the podcast today. The question I ask everyone, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Kate Jones [:

Well, being happier, there's kind of what it means for me personally and what it means for people generally. I think, for me, personally, it's definitely got something to do with making a difference. So being able to do something that has meaning and purpose in it is a massive thing. And autonomy for me, having having a sense of, freedom and choice and agency in What I do and how I how I do it, and something that balances the all the that It draws on my head, so my mind, and my heart, and my soul or my spirit, like, you know, something that engages as much of me as possible is what I I mean, it's I don't know how that sounds really, but that's My honest answer, I think that's what it it means for me. I think in terms of what it means for More generally, I think it's, it is quite a big philosophical question. And one of the things that I've come to realise in the work that I do, Yeah. I have a fundamental kind of belief. I think it's something like, on average, it's 80,000 hours that we spend at work.

Kate Jones [:

So it's like, a You're gonna spend that you know in our in an average career, if you're gonna spend that amount of time at work then how about making it an enjoyable time or a fulfilling time, or an impactful time or a, You know, a a time where you learn stuff. I don't I just can't bear the idea that people just kind of get through their days in order to, you know, get the money and and go and go home. But I'm also conscious that, a, it's a very privileged perspective, for 1. Not everybody has the choice. For some for some people, just having a job that pays the bills is, It's great and enough. But also, you know, I've been in sessions where I've asked that question and people have sort of looked at me as if to say, what are you talking about? Like, I don't need a sense of like, my purpose is to get the paycheck so that I can go home and look after my family. All the rest of it, the stuff that I talk about in terms of growth and flexibility and recognition and autonomy and connection, all these things that sit on my Scrivometer. Yeah I would love for people to have access to those things such that they can really be themselves and have a full filling, impactful life in their organization or in their organizational life because I assume that people kind of move, don't stay in one place anymore.

Kate Jones [:

And I also recognize and respect that that is not the case for everybody. And for some people, having a job, you know, that enables them to pay the bills Might be sufficient.

Aoife O'Brien [:

Brilliant. Love that. Very comprehensive answer as well, Kate. Thank you. And if people want to find out more about a what you do if they want to reach out to connect. What's the best way they can do that?

Kate Jones [:

So definitely take a look at my website, which is www beep cleanneon.com. But then probably the best in terms of social media, the best place is LinkedIn. So Kate Jones, neon, you will find me. And there, there's also the my my Linktree, which I think might have first discovered through you, Aoife. I think you have a Linktree.

Aoife O'Brien [:

I have a Linktree. I do. Yeah.

Kate Jones [:

It's fabulous. And so there, you can, find, yeah, kind of summaries of my leadership work, my life coaching work, my blog, because I write quite frequently, on my blog, about my upcoming retreat. So I'm running a well-being and forest bathing retreat from the 19th or 20 1st April just outside London, and various kind of resources that you can track down. So if you if you track down track me down on LinkedIn, You will find the Linktree and can find links to everything. And I love always love to hear from people. The Linktree will guide you to my mailing list if you're interested in hearing from me. And, finally, on Instagram, I I am neon_living, Which is, I don't I don't talk about my leadership stuff really on there. It's mainly on the kind of life side of things.

Kate Jones [:

You also get more of a sense of me.

Aoife O'Brien [:

Yeah, yeah.

Kate Jones [:

Wearing silly hats and

Aoife O'Brien [:

I'm like that on Instagram as well. It's a bit more behind the scenes. Yes. Exactly. More, I was gonna say a bit more honest and authentic. I try and be honest and authentic on LinkedIn as much as I can, but, like, there is that additional and this is what what's really happened or this is what's going on behind the scenes, aspects to Instagram that I really enjoy as well. Kate,

Kate Jones [:

it's been

Aoife O'Brien [:

an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast.

Kate Jones [:

So much.

Aoife O'Brien [:

Thank you so much for your time, and I can't wait to share this episode with listeners.

Kate Jones [:

Thank you, Aoife. Have a lovely day.

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