POD: Protest to Politics

Val: 00:00:00

Hey, it's Val.

2

: 00:00:01

This week we're bringing you a

conversation between Luke Baumgarten and

3

: 00:00:05

former city council President Ben Stucker.

4

: 00:00:08

Ben is the person who called for a

protest last week on Wednesday, June 11th

5

: 00:00:12

at the Spokane Immigration and Customs

Enforcement Facility where ice agents were

6

: 00:00:16

detaining two young men, joir and Cesar

were coming in for a routine check-in.

7

: 00:00:22

And ICE decided to detain them and

start processing them for deportation.

8

: 00:00:27

Ben and Luke talk about the protest,

what led up to it and what's next?

9

: 00:00:31

Listen in.

10

: 00:01:02

Luke: We are here to talk about kind

of the events of Wednesday, but more

11

: 00:01:05

importantly, the lives of two men.

12

: 00:01:08

Um, Cesar Alexander Alvarez Perez, who's

the, the young man now, 21 years old

13

: 00:01:13

that you've been helping sort of steward

through the process of asylum seeking.

14

: 00:01:18

And his friend who he met, they're both

Venezuelan, but they met in Columbia

15

: 00:01:22

as they were on their trip to America.

16

: 00:01:24

Uh, Josar Slater Rodriguez Torres.

17

: 00:01:28

There's so much to talk about.

18

: 00:01:29

It's like the last week, I think.

19

: 00:01:32

I don't know.

20

: 00:01:33

I think half the Spokane hasn't

slept well in the last week.

21

: 00:01:35

Mm-hmm.

22

: 00:01:36

Um, it's been such a topic of

conversation, and I know you're,

23

: 00:01:41

um, you tell me you, you haven't

been sleeping well either.

24

: 00:01:44

But, um, maybe to start, we just

focus on these two young men.

25

: 00:01:49

Um, tell me about Cesar, since he's

the one, you know, the best, like.

26

: 00:01:54

When did you meet him

and, and what was he like?

27

: 00:01:57

You know, he'd been, you know, coming

from starting in Venezuela all the

28

: 00:02:02

way through a pretty secure route.

29

: 00:02:04

We'll talk about in a second to get,

to get to Spokane, but to America.

30

: 00:02:09

Um, what was he like

when you first met him?

31

: 00:02:11

Ben: Well, so Washington State has

a, it's a special program that they

32

: 00:02:15

created for, uh, vulnerable, uh,

youth, um, juveniles that are between

33

: 00:02:21

the ages of 18 and 21, um, that are

on the path to becoming citizens.

34

: 00:02:27

And it's really set up to be their

mentor and guide them through the

35

: 00:02:31

help, guide 'em through the process.

36

: 00:02:33

So about three or four months ago,

I do volunteer work at Latinos in

37

: 00:02:37

Spokane, and that was something I

started, uh, right after the election.

38

: 00:02:42

I asked Latinos in Spokane if

I could come volunteer every

39

: 00:02:44

week, um, just to help vulnerable

people in our community because I.

40

: 00:02:49

I think we all need to be

showing solidarity with the

41

: 00:02:52

communities, even if we're coming

from a place of, uh, privilege.

42

: 00:02:56

And they put out a call that they needed,

uh, adults, um, to serve as guardians.

43

: 00:03:02

And so I volunteered, my

wife and I said we'd show up.

44

: 00:03:06

Um, we got to a meeting and this

was literally only like two and a

45

: 00:03:10

half months ago, and there were four

adults and, uh, four, uh, juveniles,

46

: 00:03:17

young adults in our community Right.

47

: 00:03:19

That needed to be paired

up with guardians.

48

: 00:03:21

Um, because it really helps if they have

that legal guardian, um, in their asylum

49

: 00:03:25

applications, um, it looks really good

and it helps them through that process.

50

: 00:03:30

So some of the

51

: 00:03:30

the

52

: 00:03:31

Luke: ideas like you've got

somebody on this side in America

53

: 00:03:34

that's gonna help you out.

54

: 00:03:35

Yeah.

55

: 00:03:35

If you have a have a blood

family, you have a, a support.

56

: 00:03:38

Ben: Yep.

57

: 00:03:39

And it's kind of a lesser

version of the sponsorship.

58

: 00:03:41

They have a, you have a sponsor if

you are applying for asylum as well.

59

: 00:03:45

We've also agreed to be Cesar's,

uh, sponsor in this program.

60

: 00:03:49

And Shelly o Quinn is gonna be, uh,

Joss's sponsor, um, in the asylum process.

61

: 00:03:55

Um, but we were in a

room with four adults.

62

: 00:03:58

There were, my wife and I, so five

adults and, uh, young men came in.

63

: 00:04:02

Um, Cesar was late.

64

: 00:04:04

Um, they had already talked about

pairing us up with another young

65

: 00:04:08

gentleman there that was really quiet.

66

: 00:04:10

Mm-hmm.

67

: 00:04:10

Um, my wife's Ann, she speaks Spanish.

68

: 00:04:14

I don't speak Spanish, so that's

like my problem on volunteering

69

: 00:04:18

at Latinos in Spokane.

70

: 00:04:19

And I don't speak Spanish.

71

: 00:04:21

Um, but everybody was really quiet in

this room and then Cesar and Josar walked

72

: 00:04:28

in 'cause they go everywhere together.

73

: 00:04:30

They're just like these beautiful

human beings that are, um.

74

: 00:04:34

Just like joined at the hip.

75

: 00:04:35

Yeah.

76

: 00:04:35

Joined at the hip.

77

: 00:04:36

You know, they met in Columbia.

78

: 00:04:37

They walked across eight

countries together.

79

: 00:04:41

Um, they got robbed

together on their walk up.

80

: 00:04:44

They, um, waited in Mexico to be

let in under the humanitarian parole

81

: 00:04:49

program because they're from Venezuela.

82

: 00:04:51

So they waited six months

in Mexico so that they would

83

: 00:04:54

come into our country legally.

84

: 00:04:56

So they're joined at the hip.

85

: 00:04:57

They lived together, they worked together

at Walmart full time out in Airway

86

: 00:05:00

Heights, and they walked into the room

and they were just both this huge smiles.

87

: 00:05:05

They both have curly hair and

just started joking with the whole

88

: 00:05:10

table and everybody in the room.

89

: 00:05:12

And, uh, we sat there for like 45 minutes.

90

: 00:05:15

Everybody getting to know each other.

91

: 00:05:16

Everybody was really quiet

except for those two.

92

: 00:05:19

Yeah.

93

: 00:05:19

Um, and you can't help but, uh, just

be like attracted to their light

94

: 00:05:25

and to want to be their friends.

95

: 00:05:27

Yeah.

96

: 00:05:27

And.

97

: 00:05:28

Yeah, they're, I don't know.

98

: 00:05:30

You just get, we, my wife and I

were walking out, we'd already been

99

: 00:05:32

partnered with another gentleman,

100

: 00:05:34

uh, Alberto, and we were like, oh, well,

Cesar was the coolest guy I've ever met.

101

: 00:05:41

Like, what's going on?

102

: 00:05:42

Why weren't we partnered with him?

103

: 00:05:44

And their answer at Latinos in

Spokane was, well, they're doing

104

: 00:05:47

everything so perfectly right.

105

: 00:05:49

Yeah.

106

: 00:05:50

That they don't need any help.

107

: 00:05:52

And half an hour later, I got a call

from Latinos in Spokane, um, that

108

: 00:05:57

with translation, um, issues, it was

probably better for us to partner up with

109

: 00:06:02

Cesar and just that it would be a lot.

110

: 00:06:06

Amy became the partner, the legal

guardian of the other gentleman

111

: 00:06:10

because he needed more support.

112

: 00:06:11

Luke: Amy,

113

: 00:06:12

Ben: uh, a Amy, I don't know Amy's last

name, but she's the case manager at

114

: 00:06:16

Latinos in Spokane and is, she takes a lot

of the, uh, young people that she meets

115

: 00:06:21

there and they become her family member.

116

: 00:06:23

She sent me pictures last night of.

117

: 00:06:25

All these young people that come and

volunteer at Latinos in Spokane, um, they

118

: 00:06:31

all come to her house for their birthdays

and her birthday, and their family has

119

: 00:06:36

taken 'em in and she considers them

all one part of just this huge family.

120

: 00:06:40

And it's just, it's, it's, it, what's

going on there is absolutely amazing.

121

: 00:06:45

But then they partner us with

Cesar and we got to start going

122

: 00:06:49

out and having breakfast with him.

123

: 00:06:51

We'd talk cars, we'd talk work.

124

: 00:06:55

We were talking about him opening a

business and how much he wanted to

125

: 00:06:58

serve Venezuelan food and he couldn't

wait to get a better job, um, than at

126

: 00:07:05

Walmart because he felt that the um.

127

: 00:07:08

The working conditions

weren't really up to par.

128

: 00:07:11

Yeah.

129

: 00:07:11

And he wanted to work somewhere

better, that had employers that really

130

: 00:07:15

cared about them as individuals,

um, how they needed a new car.

131

: 00:07:19

He came out to the parking lot and

looked at my car last night on the phone.

132

: 00:07:23

I actually told him that when he

gets out, he gets to drive my car.

133

: 00:07:27

And uh, that was the first time

he laughed the whole conversation.

134

: 00:07:30

He was just gawing and it was just great.

135

: 00:07:32

But, uh, I don't know.

136

: 00:07:35

You just think of somebody that's

curly haired, smiling, just talking

137

: 00:07:41

a mile a minute, and if you can't

translate, so in my case, I don't know

138

: 00:07:45

Spanish, but you're just instantly

attracted to them and want to care

139

: 00:07:49

for them and do everything possible.

140

: 00:07:52

So

141

: 00:07:53

Luke: Was Ann able to keep

up with the translation?

142

: 00:07:54

No,

143

: 00:07:55

Ben: she, she understands

Spanish, um, but her Spanish

144

: 00:07:58

isn't good enough to translate.

145

: 00:08:00

Oh, okay.

146

: 00:08:00

Um, and I think it, that's

why it's a profession.

147

: 00:08:02

Yeah.

148

: 00:08:02

Yeah.

149

: 00:08:02

Uh, it takes somebody with some,

a real skillset to be able to.

150

: 00:08:06

Go back and forth with

somebody and translate it for

151

: 00:08:08

somebody else at the same time.

152

: 00:08:10

I, I think I missed that part of my brain.

153

: 00:08:13

It's just not there.

154

: 00:08:14

Luke: so they, when they entered, um,

from Mexico into America, they went

155

: 00:08:17

to Miami first for a period time.

156

: 00:08:19

Yeah.

157

: 00:08:19

Like how long have they been in

the country when you meet them?

158

: 00:08:22

A couple weeks

159

: 00:08:23

Ben: ago, the, that's

been lost in translation.

160

: 00:08:25

Um, they got to Spokane in September.

161

: 00:08:27

they met Shelly o Quinn in

September, and Amy and Jennifer at

162

: 00:08:32

Latinos in Spokane in September.

163

: 00:08:34

And so they went there for services.

164

: 00:08:36

So this is the type of guy, they're, they

go into Latinos in Spokane because they

165

: 00:08:40

want to connect with the Latino community

and see what services are available

166

: 00:08:44

and get help with their asylum claim.

167

: 00:08:47

But what they did instead

was started volunteering.

168

: 00:08:50

Wow.

169

: 00:08:51

So they started coming in on their

off time and they worked night shifts.

170

: 00:08:55

And so during the day, I.

171

: 00:08:56

They would go into Latinos in Spokane

and volunteer and on weekends go to

172

: 00:09:01

the Medo that Latinos in Spokane puts

on and volunteer their time there.

173

: 00:09:06

So yeah, the Medo.

174

: 00:09:08

Yeah.

175

: 00:09:08

And instead of just coming to a

place for services, they end up

176

: 00:09:13

being volunteers and then befriending

everybody there and becoming part of a

177

: 00:09:18

larger family and a larger community.

178

: 00:09:20

And you know, I think they're, I was on

a call yesterday about them and uh, one

179

: 00:09:25

of the things about a strong asylum case

is it's really important to have letters

180

: 00:09:29

of support from people that knew them.

181

: 00:09:31

And so we were going over who

they would know, and it came out

182

: 00:09:35

that they're involved in three

different faith-based communities.

183

: 00:09:38

And so, oh wow.

184

: 00:09:39

We're talking to the pastors and,

and people that go to those churches.

185

: 00:09:43

But you know, they're not just vol.

186

: 00:09:44

They're not just working and

going home, they're volunteering

187

: 00:09:47

in the community involved in, uh,

they're a variety of churches.

188

: 00:09:52

Involved in Feast World Kitchen.

189

: 00:09:54

I know that's how Shelly o Quinn met them

was from at a Feast World Kitchen event.

190

: 00:09:57

Oh, wow.

191

: 00:09:58

so they're all over the place.

192

: 00:09:59

And now I'm getting messages from

people all over the community that,

193

: 00:10:03

oh my God, that's Cesar and Josar.

194

: 00:10:05

We know them, we met them.

195

: 00:10:07

What wonderful young men.

196

: 00:10:09

And nobody's there, there's nobody in

Spokane that has met them, that isn't

197

: 00:10:14

just absolutely in love with them.

198

: 00:10:16

Luke: Well, we should say that like your

ability to come to America shouldn't

199

: 00:10:20

be, you know, um, based on your

perfection as a human being and your No.

200

: 00:10:25

Now you want to volunteer, but like

these sounds like they came to America.

201

: 00:10:28

The Right, you know, the, the legal like

following all the legal rules and they've

202

: 00:10:34

in pretty short time become important

parts of the communities they've found

203

: 00:10:39

Ben: here.

204

: 00:10:39

Yeah.

205

: 00:10:40

I just think it's a good,

it's representative of how

206

: 00:10:42

absurd the policies are.

207

: 00:10:44

I guess to me they're are really good

example of what we want as a neighbor.

208

: 00:10:48

I have.

209

: 00:10:49

A lot of neighbors and a lot of people

I've met that, uh, I don't really

210

: 00:10:55

consider the best community members.

211

: 00:10:57

Yeah.

212

: 00:10:57

And these are the people

we want in the community.

213

: 00:11:00

And I, I, I, we can, these are like,

this problem is based on their detention.

214

: 00:11:08

The fact that the humanitarian

parole that they came in got canceled

215

: 00:11:13

via executive order by Trump.

216

: 00:11:15

Luke: That happened right at

the beginning of June, right?

217

: 00:11:17

Ben: Yeah.

218

: 00:11:17

Right at the beginning of June, he

canceled the humanitarian parole.

219

: 00:11:21

So those are like Trump policies

that are causing this problem.

220

: 00:11:25

But people are people and people

are not necessarily political.

221

: 00:11:33

And the fact that a republican

county commissioner, former county

222

: 00:11:36

commissioner, Shelley o Quinn, who got

talked about from running for Congress.

223

: 00:11:40

You know, as little as a year ago before

Baumgartner became our congressman.

224

: 00:11:44

Yeah.

225

: 00:11:44

A lot of the talk in the community

with the, she would be the strongest

226

: 00:11:47

person to run for, uh, Congress from

the fifth Congressional District.

227

: 00:11:51

The fact that she, her words to me

on the first conversation on Thursday

228

: 00:11:57

morning when we figured out this mutual

connection and what was going on, and

229

: 00:12:01

she was back in Minnesota for work was

230

: 00:12:04

Luke: Oh, wow.

231

: 00:12:04

So on thir you didn't

know that, that Shelly and

232

: 00:12:06

Ben: I, I had no idea.

233

: 00:12:07

Oh, wow.

234

: 00:12:07

I just knew they were really good

friends with this family of two twin

235

: 00:12:10

sisters, and their kids were the similar

age of Josar and Cesar, and they'd

236

: 00:12:17

been taken in as, as family members.

237

: 00:12:19

I didn't know the names until

Thursday that it was Shelly O'Quinn.

238

: 00:12:22

Yeah.

239

: 00:12:22

But I think that's what, to me is so

indicative of how wrong this is, is that

240

: 00:12:29

you have Democrats and Republicans alike.

241

: 00:12:33

That, and Shelly's first words to

me though were, I would've been

242

: 00:12:37

there with you being arrested and I.

243

: 00:12:39

Can tell you that.

244

: 00:12:40

And she's a protective mom

of these two and loves them.

245

: 00:12:46

And they go to her lake, they go

to her lake place on the weekends.

246

: 00:12:49

Wow.

247

: 00:12:50

Luke: Um, Pascal's telling me we're

peaking a little bit, so, okay.

248

: 00:12:55

I'm getting excited.

249

: 00:12:56

I know.

250

: 00:12:56

Yeah.

251

: 00:12:57

This is the, uh, the Ben Stucker.

252

: 00:12:59

At least I'm not

253

: 00:12:59

Ben: crying.

254

: 00:13:00

Luke: Did you?

255

: 00:13:01

Not yet.

256

: 00:13:01

Anyways.

257

: 00:13:02

Did you, did you and Shelly's,

uh, terms as electeds overlap?

258

: 00:13:07

Oh, yes.

259

: 00:13:07

Did you guys have a cordial relationship?

260

: 00:13:09

No, that's what I remembered.

261

: 00:13:12

Yeah.

262

: 00:13:12

Ben: It was contentious at times.

263

: 00:13:14

Yeah.

264

: 00:13:14

Especially around like the Spokane

Tribes casino project and Oh, right.

265

: 00:13:18

We had some very serious words back then.

266

: 00:13:21

Yeah.

267

: 00:13:22

I did have coffee with her about

housing maybe six months ago, but it

268

: 00:13:25

wasn't like a warm and fuzzy coffee.

269

: 00:13:28

Yeah.

270

: 00:13:28

And then yesterday we're sitting

at 8:00 AM having coffee, talking

271

: 00:13:32

about how we're gonna get the

boys back and, you know, she's, I.

272

: 00:13:37

I cooked a VA of, uh,

Sunday Gravy on Sunday.

273

: 00:13:40

Mm.

274

: 00:13:40

And, uh, I made sure and took

Jennifer Mesa Latinos in Spokane,

275

: 00:13:44

a big pile of my spaghetti sauce.

276

: 00:13:47

But I also brought, uh, Shelly some, uh,

because Shelly's gonna be in my life.

277

: 00:13:52

Uh, she's gonna be in my life forever.

278

: 00:13:54

Um, she's, uh, I think surprising

each other is what humanity is about,

279

: 00:14:03

and it's overcoming any different

obstacles, uh, to care for each other.

280

: 00:14:08

And that's what we gotta keep remembering

is these are all human beings.

281

: 00:14:11

And, uh, you're right though.

282

: 00:14:14

It's not, you don't have to be a

perfect example of a human being.

283

: 00:14:16

We want everybody in our country

because diversity is our strength.

284

: 00:14:20

Um, but I just can't, these,

these boys are so amazing.

285

: 00:14:25

And then to think that.

286

: 00:14:27

There were 500,000 Venezuelans that came

in under the humanitarian parole program.

287

: 00:14:32

These are just two of those 500,000.

288

: 00:14:35

And I'm, you know, Trump wants to

end the humanitarian parole program.

289

: 00:14:39

All right.

290

: 00:14:40

That's his prerogative.

291

: 00:14:41

I'm totally, totally understand that.

292

: 00:14:43

But then to go retro and kick

those people out that did it

293

: 00:14:47

the right way is, is cruel.

294

: 00:14:50

They're, you know, they're not,

they're going to Home Depots and

295

: 00:14:54

why are they going to Home Depots?

296

: 00:14:55

Because those people are working.

297

: 00:14:56

Yeah.

298

: 00:14:57

We, we keep talking about, we have this

narrative in our community that immigrants

299

: 00:15:01

are just mooching off the system and

they're on Medicaid, and there's fraud

300

: 00:15:06

in our government because we're just

giving people all these free things.

301

: 00:15:09

But then where are they going to find the

people to deport is places of work because

302

: 00:15:17

they're working, they're hardworking.

303

: 00:15:19

Um, and we can't, you

can't have it both ways.

304

: 00:15:21

Either they're hard workers and

they're here and you're just

305

: 00:15:24

mad because you're a racist.

306

: 00:15:25

Or, uh, you're wrong.

307

: 00:15:29

And those people should stay.

308

: 00:15:30

Like you can't, I don't know.

309

: 00:15:32

You can't, you can't claim both

sides at once in this, this issue.

310

: 00:15:36

And it's really, but I think, and

I'll shut up and let you ask another

311

: 00:15:40

question in just a second, but I

think keeping this human is what was

312

: 00:15:45

to me so impactful is because we need

to, I guess when you're there, like,

313

: 00:15:51

did I go protest ice two weeks ago?

314

: 00:15:54

No.

315

: 00:15:54

But I was trying to take care of

people, but I didn't go protest ice.

316

: 00:15:58

But when it was two people I knew, I was

like, oh my God, I will do absolutely

317

: 00:16:02

anything to stop them from being deported.

318

: 00:16:05

And I guess we need to each take a

look at ourselves and say, what are

319

: 00:16:08

we willing to do for those people?

320

: 00:16:10

Because a lot of 'em don't have, uh,

in some ways says that we may make no

321

: 00:16:17

difference at all and they're gonna get

deported in two weeks and that that's

322

: 00:16:20

a very high likelihood, but maybe.

323

: 00:16:23

The pressure we put on changes the

policy, or maybe we save one at a time.

324

: 00:16:29

Yeah.

325

: 00:16:30

Luke: Um, it kind of reminds me a

little bit of the, a conversation

326

: 00:16:34

I actually had with Justice for

All at the end of last year.

327

: 00:16:38

I think they'd had a pretty tough year

with various things and they're, you

328

: 00:16:44

know, relatively far left activist.

329

: 00:16:47

And, um, and the, the time right

before this time, sort of around the

330

: 00:16:54

holidays that I saw them, they, and

this was maybe four or five months

331

: 00:16:57

prior, didn't seem like they were doing

super well, you know, emotionally.

332

: 00:17:01

Um, and then when I saw them right

after the election, despite obviously,

333

: 00:17:07

you know, a a, a left wing protest,

a person isn't gonna be super stoked

334

: 00:17:11

about Trump and most of the stuff that

happened in that election, but they

335

: 00:17:14

were, they had the slightness about

them, and I was like, what's, you know.

336

: 00:17:19

What's going on?

337

: 00:17:19

Like, you seem like you're

in a really good place.

338

: 00:17:22

And they said, I've started

organizing my neighborhood.

339

: 00:17:26

I, I decided, and this, I'm gonna

bring this back to what you just said.

340

: 00:17:30

I, I, in so many different aspects of

my life, I've seen people who can like

341

: 00:17:35

hate or be scared of an abstraction,

like migrant or, you know, whatever.

342

: 00:17:41

And then love individual people.

343

: 00:17:44

And that usually comes because I come

from a pretty conservative family

344

: 00:17:46

that comes from like, you know, the

church I grew up in saying that, you

345

: 00:17:51

know, gay people are going to hell.

346

: 00:17:53

But then when my parents met individual

gay, like we have, you know, gay friends

347

: 00:17:58

and gay family and, um, it really strikes

me that, and then, so what Justice was

348

: 00:18:03

doing was sort of the opposite of that.

349

: 00:18:05

He was like, I am, or they were like,

I'm walking around to the, my neighbors

350

: 00:18:10

with drum signs in their yards and

just saying, Hey, do you need help?

351

: 00:18:13

Like, these tend to be older

folks and I'm just trying to like.

352

: 00:18:17

And not with any ulterior motive

of like making them want vote for,

353

: 00:18:21

you know, a Democrat or somebody

else, but with the idea of just

354

: 00:18:25

being like, I'm here if you need me.

355

: 00:18:26

Right.

356

: 00:18:27

Yeah.

357

: 00:18:27

And it feels like, and that's a little

bit what you're doing with Shelly now,

358

: 00:18:29

but like, 'cause if we've missed and

we've lost a lot of that in, in the

359

: 00:18:34

Hyperpolarization and the, the social

media and the 24 hour news cycle.

360

: 00:18:37

Ben: Yeah.

361

: 00:18:38

I think we've lost a lot of

empathy for each other and others.

362

: 00:18:41

And I don't know what that quote

is from Hannah or Rent, but I think

363

: 00:18:45

it's, the loss of empathy is a

sign of a fall of a civilization.

364

: 00:18:49

Wow.

365

: 00:18:50

Or something similar to that.

366

: 00:18:51

And I think we, like, if we're

gonna get back to being a strong

367

: 00:18:56

community in a strong country, we're

gonna have to get back to empathy.

368

: 00:19:00

And I think that starts

one person at a time.

369

: 00:19:03

Luke: Well, I, I mean, I had another

conversation with a friend of mine

370

: 00:19:05

who's a, the intergenerational

pastor at First Presbyterian, which.

371

: 00:19:09

I think Jos War and Cesar both went

to the Barton School to learn English.

372

: 00:19:14

Yeah.

373

: 00:19:14

Like one of the first English as a

second language programs in Spokane.

374

: 00:19:18

It was based out of, um, first pre,

but this friend of mine was talking

375

: 00:19:22

about how their church is trying to

sort of be both open and affirming

376

: 00:19:27

while also leaving space for people

who aren't comfortable with that.

377

: 00:19:31

you know, the older congregants and

what my friend was saying, and this is

378

: 00:19:35

gonna be in a subsequent episode of this

podcast, but like, this whole thing was

379

: 00:19:40

like talking and obviously it's like when,

when one side is like, I want to feel

380

: 00:19:46

free to express, you know, to be who I am.

381

: 00:19:48

And the other side's like

what you are as a human.

382

: 00:19:50

Like that's, there's no, there's

no arguing across that gap.

383

: 00:19:55

No.

384

: 00:19:56

And it's really, really hard for the

person who's being dehumanized in that.

385

: 00:20:00

Um, and the conversation he said he's been

having with some of the younger people

386

: 00:20:04

in the church is just around like, well.

387

: 00:20:07

You know, we obviously

want people to feel safe.

388

: 00:20:08

We don't want people throwing

around slurs, but also if we kick

389

: 00:20:12

this person out of our community,

where are they gonna end up?

390

: 00:20:16

Like, they're gonna end up keyboard

warriors, they're gonna find mm-hmm.

391

: 00:20:20

They're gonna find a like-minded

community that's gonna, you know, maybe

392

: 00:20:23

drag them even further into the abyss.

393

: 00:20:25

And so like, that really feels, it's

not something I intended to talk about

394

: 00:20:30

today, but the way you said, the way

you were talking about, you know, you

395

: 00:20:34

and the two dudes, and then you and

Shelly, it really kind of centered that

396

: 00:20:39

for me, just like the, the need to like,

without excusing the things, the beliefs

397

: 00:20:46

that each each of us have that are like

the other person might find abhorrent.

398

: 00:20:50

Like still seeing the

humanity through that.

399

: 00:20:52

Yeah.

400

: 00:20:52

Feels like a really important

thing to do right now.

401

: 00:20:55

Yeah.

402

: 00:20:56

Ben: I, yeah, I can't,

I couldn't agree more.

403

: 00:20:58

Um, the polarization I guess, that

I've seen over my lifetime is.

404

: 00:21:04

Outrageous in the Yeah.

405

: 00:21:06

Wanting to, if they, if people have an

opinion on one issue that you disagree

406

: 00:21:12

with, then you're outside and, yeah.

407

: 00:21:15

Shoved outside is pretty harsh to me.

408

: 00:21:18

Like Yeah.

409

: 00:21:19

I, I, and I don't think it

does any of us any good.

410

: 00:21:22

Right.

411

: 00:21:23

Um, I think we need to get back to

just really loving on each other.

412

: 00:21:29

Yeah.

413

: 00:21:29

I, it's really like I, the last week I've

become so angered at, uh, politics and

414

: 00:21:39

angered at politicians and for somebody

that spent eight years, literally eight

415

: 00:21:44

full-time years working on, from the

inside of a system, because I felt

416

: 00:21:49

that was the best way to change it.

417

: 00:21:51

Yeah.

418

: 00:21:51

I'm really pretty sour right

now on politics in general

419

: 00:21:54

and politicians in particular.

420

: 00:21:57

And, um.

421

: 00:22:00

Really just about, I wanna, um, love on

as many people as possible and I just

422

: 00:22:06

get really emotional, like the support

that I've gotten over the last week.

423

: 00:22:09

Yeah.

424

: 00:22:09

And the support that Josar

and Cesar have gotten.

425

: 00:22:14

Um, and LA you know, last night

talking to Cesar, he wouldn't stop

426

: 00:22:18

saying how appreciative he was of

everybody in Spokane and Anne and

427

: 00:22:23

I and Amy, and Shelly and Jennifer.

428

: 00:22:27

And they were, you know, they were

locked up there on the second floor

429

: 00:22:30

of the ice detention facility and

the ICE agents kept telling 'em they

430

: 00:22:35

were kept in very inhumane conditions

and they were shackled, um, wow.

431

: 00:22:42

With chains on their feet and

chains on their arms, all chained

432

: 00:22:46

together around their waist.

433

: 00:22:48

Um, and they're also

in a cage, I would say.

434

: 00:22:50

Yeah.

435

: 00:22:50

And being told that the only reason

they're being treated so poorly is because

436

: 00:22:55

we are outside supporting them and Wow.

437

: 00:23:00

least they had a good excuse that day

to treat people like, uh, in inhumane.

438

: 00:23:04

Yeah.

439

: 00:23:05

Um, but he couldn't stop saying how

much he, I guess it's the, the one story

440

: 00:23:11

that still, if I can just keep going.

441

: 00:23:13

Is that all right?

442

: 00:23:14

Yeah.

443

: 00:23:14

So Cesar and Josar are in the Tacoma

Detention Center, and you know, the

444

: 00:23:20

beds in detention centers are awful.

445

: 00:23:22

The food is awful.

446

: 00:23:23

They're in a room by

themselves for 23 hours a day.

447

: 00:23:27

When they get out, they go to a separate

room and that room has a grate on the

448

: 00:23:30

ceiling, but you still can't see the sky.

449

: 00:23:33

You just get a little tiny bit of

air that you're trying to breathe.

450

: 00:23:36

Um, and for six hours, I experienced the

same thing in the Spokane County Jail,

451

: 00:23:42

which was dirty, gross, disgusting.

452

: 00:23:44

Not only for the people staying there

for, but for working conditions for

453

: 00:23:48

everybody that works in that jail.

454

: 00:23:50

We need to all be coming to a better

compromise as a community where we

455

: 00:23:54

don't expect somebody to go to the

Spokane County Jail and think that

456

: 00:23:57

after spending 30 to 60 days there,

they're gonna come out better.

457

: 00:24:01

'cause that's, uh, absolutely false.

458

: 00:24:04

I was ready to lose my

mind after six hours.

459

: 00:24:07

Yeah.

460

: 00:24:07

Um, but while they're in there in these

really inhumane conditions, to go back

461

: 00:24:12

to my point is, is that in the last

few days, so since they got there on

462

: 00:24:18

Thursday, there's two stories already

of them having met other detainees.

463

: 00:24:25

That one, uh, had no phone numbers.

464

: 00:24:28

When he got in, they, they took his phone.

465

: 00:24:31

Oh.

466

: 00:24:31

So he didn't have his phone and

didn't have any numbers memorized,

467

: 00:24:34

so could not get ahold of his family.

468

: 00:24:36

Wow.

469

: 00:24:36

And had been in there for months.

470

: 00:24:38

So they went, took it upon themselves

to get his name and information, and

471

: 00:24:42

immediately the first person they talked

to, they passed along that information.

472

: 00:24:47

Who then Latinos in Spokane got.

473

: 00:24:49

That detainee in touch with his family.

474

: 00:24:51

And then two days later, another

gentleman, his lawyer had abruptly

475

: 00:24:56

quit and fired the gentleman and

the lawyer had all the numbers and

476

: 00:24:59

was the connection to the family.

477

: 00:25:01

And so they've now connected

and they connected them through

478

: 00:25:05

Latinos in Spokane to their family.

479

: 00:25:07

So there's two people in

there already that had, had no

480

: 00:25:10

contact with their families.

481

: 00:25:12

Um, one of 'em for a month since

their lawyer fired 'em, and the

482

: 00:25:16

other since they'd been in there.

483

: 00:25:18

And they're still in there

trying to help other people.

484

: 00:25:21

Like, and like, to me that's like

a Cesar and Josar have it awful.

485

: 00:25:28

This is horrible.

486

: 00:25:29

They're really good people,

but there's so many more.

487

: 00:25:32

And what are we doing about it

and what can we do about it?

488

: 00:25:35

Like what are we doing about it right now?

489

: 00:25:37

And with people, because you know

what they did after our protest on

490

: 00:25:42

Wednesday, they suspended the in person.

491

: 00:25:44

Uh.

492

: 00:25:44

Because Josar and Cesar showed

up at ICE for a routine check.

493

: 00:25:48

Right.

494

: 00:25:49

And so they followed all the

rules yet again, but at that

495

: 00:25:52

routine check was earlier taken.

496

: 00:25:54

So after our protest, uh, they suspended

all the in-person checks at ice, um, up

497

: 00:26:00

until they're gonna restart on Thursday.

498

: 00:26:02

Oh, wow.

499

: 00:26:03

So to me, that worked.

500

: 00:26:04

We stopped 'em from taking

a week's worth of people.

501

: 00:26:06

Right.

502

: 00:26:06

Like, if nothing, we stopped the

machine for a bit because I feel

503

: 00:26:10

like it's a machine and you gotta

put, like, you think of a bicycle and

504

: 00:26:14

you stick those stick in the spoke.

505

: 00:26:16

Right?

506

: 00:26:17

We gotta stick sticks in the spoke of the

machine because there's no other option.

507

: 00:26:21

Right now Congress isn't doing anything.

508

: 00:26:23

The courts are moving way too slow.

509

: 00:26:25

The Supreme Court is just a disaster.

510

: 00:26:29

Um, so we, we, it's up to us to

stick the spokes in the machine.

511

: 00:26:33

And so what else are we doing

and how else are we helping?

512

: 00:26:36

Because even if Josar and Cesar

get released next week and we have

513

: 00:26:39

a big party that they're home.

514

: 00:26:42

Yeah.

515

: 00:26:42

There are still people

being taken every day.

516

: 00:26:44

And we watched that that afternoon.

517

: 00:26:46

Luke: I know you had like a

small amount of time with him.

518

: 00:26:48

Uh, did he have a sense of how many

people are in are in Tacoma right now?

519

: 00:26:52

None.

520

: 00:26:53

Yeah.

521

: 00:26:53

No.

522

: 00:26:53

They're keep him so isolated.

523

: 00:26:55

Yeah.

524

: 00:26:55

So

525

: 00:26:55

Ben: isolated.

526

: 00:26:55

Like see, he from his cell,

he can see Josar, but has

527

: 00:27:00

not been able to talk to him.

528

: 00:27:01

Luke: And is he alone in his cell?

529

: 00:27:02

Yes.

530

: 00:27:03

Ben: He, other is my understanding

in the translation I heard yesterday

531

: 00:27:06

was that he's alone in his cell.

532

: 00:27:07

Luke: I wanna get to the protest in a

second, but I did like you, when you

533

: 00:27:11

and I were chatting, um, yesterday and

you said, and I, I literally wrote it

534

: 00:27:16

down because the, you used like two

explanation points in a text and I don't

535

: 00:27:21

think I've ever seen you use mm-hmm.

536

: 00:27:22

Explanation, but like I get to speak

to, you said, you know, Cesar, I get

537

: 00:27:27

to speak to Cesar tonight at eight

30, like two exclamation points.

538

: 00:27:32

Um, then you and I connected

right afterwards and you

539

: 00:27:36

seemed like pretty depressed.

540

: 00:27:38

And so were those like mixed emotions?

541

: 00:27:41

Or were you excited to talk?

542

: 00:27:43

And then you heard how he was

feeling and it broke your heart.

543

: 00:27:45

You made it sound like, you know, clearly

he's like trying to help people in there.

544

: 00:27:49

But yeah, you, it sounded like you were,

the way you characterized it to me last

545

: 00:27:53

time was that you were, it felt like

you were talking to a different person.

546

: 00:27:55

Like he'd been broken a little bit.

547

: 00:27:57

Ben: Yeah.

548

: 00:27:57

He didn't sound like the a hundred

percent didn't sound like the same person.

549

: 00:28:00

I know.

550

: 00:28:01

And I, I've never talked to him,

I've never been with him where

551

: 00:28:06

he is not smiling as he went

in to get taken away by ice.

552

: 00:28:09

And they, you know, I asked to go

with him because I had my legal

553

: 00:28:12

guardianship paper and I tried to

walk back and they were like, Nope.

554

: 00:28:15

And I was like, never.

555

: 00:28:16

I'm keep on walking.

556

: 00:28:17

Right.

557

: 00:28:17

I kept trying to follow him and

they, you know, physically stopped

558

: 00:28:20

me from going back with him.

559

: 00:28:22

And, uh, he was still smiling,

even though he was worried.

560

: 00:28:27

He was at that point still smiling

and, but on the phone you could

561

: 00:28:34

hear the sadness in his voice.

562

: 00:28:36

Um, I don't know.

563

: 00:28:38

It's, uh.

564

: 00:28:41

They're designed to break you and you want

to keep everybody's spirits up when you're

565

: 00:28:47

talking to 'em, but you can't also help

be, um, totally heartbroken and emotional

566

: 00:28:53

and not want to just bust out crying.

567

: 00:28:55

I called my brother after I got off the

phone and he had some really good news

568

: 00:29:01

about his son, uh, who's transitioning

in Clara, and she wore a dress in public

569

: 00:29:09

for the first time, which was huge.

570

: 00:29:11

And all I could do was cry.

571

: 00:29:15

I don't, the emotional rollercoaster of

the last week for me has been, you feel

572

: 00:29:21

an outpouring of love from the community

and support and my friends that showed up

573

: 00:29:26

that don't show up at things like that,

but they were there to, they knew that

574

: 00:29:30

we cared about Cesar and Josar, so they

were there, there were people that care

575

: 00:29:34

about, what's amazing is these people

got arrested for people they don't know.

576

: 00:29:38

I don't know what I would've

done if I didn't know them.

577

: 00:29:42

I, I don't know.

578

: 00:29:42

I've been so frustrated

the last six months.

579

: 00:29:44

So, and it's, what are you gonna do?

580

: 00:29:45

What are you gonna do?

581

: 00:29:47

Yeah.

582

: 00:29:47

How are we gonna make a difference?

583

: 00:29:48

Because to me, going and standing in

a park doesn't really seem to make a

584

: 00:29:51

difference because nobody really cares

if 5 million people go stand in parks.

585

: 00:29:55

Yeah.

586

: 00:29:55

Like, but there's this

rollercoaster of feeling good.

587

: 00:29:59

And then there's, uh, calls with lawyers

where it's, um, super discouraging

588

: 00:30:05

because they're on, uh, expedited,

uh, removal, removal process.

589

: 00:30:11

And I don't know how to stop that.

590

: 00:30:12

And then I'm talking to Marcus Elli

about the young man that was, uh,

591

: 00:30:17

also, uh, one of the parents on

the soccer team that this happened.

592

: 00:30:22

Uh, I think it was in February.

593

: 00:30:23

And he got picked up.

594

: 00:30:25

Right.

595

: 00:30:25

And Marcus has been doing

everything in his power and then

596

: 00:30:29

put me in touch with a few people.

597

: 00:30:30

And you know, the friend of his in Seattle

that I talked to yesterday that Marcus

598

: 00:30:35

had put me in touch with was like, have

you done this and have you done this?

599

: 00:30:38

Yeah, we're doing that, we're

doing that, we're doing that.

600

: 00:30:40

And they're like, I don't

know what else there is.

601

: 00:30:42

And then you're talking to the lawyer

and they're like, yeah, they're

602

: 00:30:44

on an expedited deportation plan.

603

: 00:30:47

So you have this thing like, if I

finally put my body on the line,

604

: 00:30:51

we're gonna put a stop to this.

605

: 00:30:52

Right?

606

: 00:30:53

You have some like, I'm gonna save at

least two people and that's all I can do.

607

: 00:30:57

And it's probably, it's

probably not going to work.

608

: 00:31:01

And they're probably gonna be deported.

609

: 00:31:02

And no matter how hard we keep

working, it's, and so what are

610

: 00:31:07

we doing to stop the machine?

611

: 00:31:08

Yeah.

612

: 00:31:09

Is is my, in my mind, I'm just

constantly, that's all I can think about.

613

: 00:31:13

I don't give a about politics.

614

: 00:31:14

I don't care about what politician

you're not supposed to critique.

615

: 00:31:19

I don't care about, um.

616

: 00:31:22

What your idea of justice is.

617

: 00:31:24

All I know is what's right and wrong,

and right now things are wrong.

618

: 00:31:30

Luke: You obviously couldn't have done

what you know the stopped them for as

619

: 00:31:36

long as you did without other people.

620

: 00:31:39

I think we saw your, my colleague,

Aaron Sellers, and I saw your posts a

621

: 00:31:43

few minutes after you made it around

one and you were calling people to

622

: 00:31:47

come down around two, so like an hour.

623

: 00:31:49

This was not a planned protest.

624

: 00:31:51

This was No, this was

625

: 00:31:52

Ben: a hundred percent spontaneous.

626

: 00:31:53

Luke: And, and in response to, like,

you were down there with Cesar and

627

: 00:31:57

they separated you and then, then did

they say that he was being detained?

628

: 00:32:02

Oh yeah.

629

: 00:32:02

They came out, they came back

out and they said, well, we

630

: 00:32:04

Ben: gave him like this huge packet of

information that has all their legal

631

: 00:32:09

documents that I have with me, and

I carry 'em around everywhere I go.

632

: 00:32:13

Yeah.

633

: 00:32:13

And they came out seven minutes later.

634

: 00:32:17

They didn't even look at 'em.

635

: 00:32:18

They just said, we're detaining them.

636

: 00:32:19

And we're like, okay.

637

: 00:32:21

What do you mean you're detaining them?

638

: 00:32:22

Well, we're, um, gonna take 'em to Tacoma

and they're gonna have a hearing in

639

: 00:32:27

Tacoma either tonight or tomorrow morning.

640

: 00:32:29

And we're like, what

do you mean a hearing?

641

: 00:32:32

Here's here's their hearing dates

for their asylum in October.

642

: 00:32:36

Yeah, yeah.

643

: 00:32:36

And it's, it's well in the future.

644

: 00:32:38

And yeah, they're on humanitarian

parole and they're like, no,

645

: 00:32:41

we're taking 'em to Tacoma.

646

: 00:32:43

And we're like, okay, so

can we go see them in there?

647

: 00:32:45

No, you can't.

648

: 00:32:46

Okay.

649

: 00:32:47

Can we give him a hug?

650

: 00:32:48

Goodbye.

651

: 00:32:49

No, you can't.

652

: 00:32:50

Um, and then, so I asked the

gentleman, why are you detaining him?

653

: 00:32:55

And he is like, I don't know.

654

: 00:32:56

Then why are you doing it?

655

: 00:32:57

And his answer was, we're just doing

what we're told because it's our job.

656

: 00:33:04

Which is, that's the defense

they used at the Nuremberg trials

657

: 00:33:08

was, I'm just doing my job.

658

: 00:33:10

Yeah.

659

: 00:33:10

And it was, that was their

defense of, you have a choice.

660

: 00:33:16

We can all work for ice.

661

: 00:33:19

Or you can quit your job

because it's immoral.

662

: 00:33:22

Right.

663

: 00:33:22

It's the same thing when you're

out there blasting protestors

664

: 00:33:25

that are standing there trying to

protect their fellow human beings.

665

: 00:33:29

You have a choice.

666

: 00:33:30

Yeah.

667

: 00:33:30

It's like you have a choice

to send in the police or not.

668

: 00:33:32

It's a yes or no.

669

: 00:33:33

Right.

670

: 00:33:34

And you're making that choice, not us.

671

: 00:33:36

Yeah.

672

: 00:33:37

And all of it, people are making

bad choices and immoral choices that

673

: 00:33:43

a history is not gonna be kind on.

674

: 00:33:45

Yeah.

675

: 00:33:47

so go back to the spontaneous protest.

676

: 00:33:48

Well, and

677

: 00:33:49

Luke: you, you were, you said, I said

we're going to s is gonna come down.

678

: 00:33:55

And I think you said something to the

effect, you know, hope people show up.

679

: 00:33:59

And it didn't, it wasn't like the huge,

you know, showing that those early

680

: 00:34:06

protests after the murder of George

Floyd in: 2020

681

: 00:34:10

Almost felt a little

better organized like that.

682

: 00:34:12

All these various groups had been

working together for five years

683

: 00:34:15

and, and it, and it slowly grew.

684

: 00:34:17

But to start with, it looked like

it was, I saw Jack Archer, I saw

685

: 00:34:21

Liz Moore from PJ ls, Jack Archer

from Scar and, and other things.

686

: 00:34:26

Uh, obviously Latinas in

Spokane was down there.

687

: 00:34:28

Jennifer Mesa was down there.

688

: 00:34:30

Like who, what did you

hear from that core group?

689

: 00:34:34

Or did you hear, did you hear that

people were coming or did No, I had

690

: 00:34:36

Ben: no idea.

691

: 00:34:37

And then I was so thankful because like

Liz Moore and Jack Archer have been

692

: 00:34:44

trained in, uh, protesting crowd control.

693

: 00:34:49

What does non-violence mean?

694

: 00:34:51

Like, I've read my share of

Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.

695

: 00:34:54

But like, I don't think I touched the

mic, the bullhorn, but one time, yeah,

696

: 00:35:00

over that seven hours because, um.

697

: 00:35:03

Some people that knew what they were

doing were there and it, I was so

698

: 00:35:08

grateful that they were there and that

they were, um, continually every 15

699

: 00:35:12

minutes talking about nonviolence, um,

talking about you being disciplined

700

: 00:35:18

and everybody was listening to them.

701

: 00:35:20

Um, and I was in awe that they were there.

702

: 00:35:24

Like I thought it'd be

a dozen of my friends.

703

: 00:35:27

Yeah.

704

: 00:35:27

And me, and they'd wait us out.

705

: 00:35:31

Yeah.

706

: 00:35:31

Or I'd wait them out.

707

: 00:35:33

Right.

708

: 00:35:33

Yeah.

709

: 00:35:33

Like, release my friends.

710

: 00:35:35

Yeah.

711

: 00:35:36

But I didn't think you'd have people

that knew what they were doing.

712

: 00:35:39

Yeah.

713

: 00:35:39

Um, show up.

714

: 00:35:40

So that was amazing.

715

: 00:35:41

And then people were bringing

pizzas, sandwiches, how, I don't

716

: 00:35:46

know how many pallets of water

got brought down for everybody.

717

: 00:35:50

I did a Facebook post, and then

I think Anne texted a couple of

718

: 00:35:53

our friend groups and that was it.

719

: 00:35:55

Wow.

720

: 00:35:56

And then it just took off, which I'm,

and I gotta say, having the media there

721

: 00:36:01

is absolutely, like, integral to, um,

any mass movement working, because if it

722

: 00:36:08

happens, that all could have happened.

723

: 00:36:11

But if none of it would've been

covered, nobody would've known

724

: 00:36:14

about it and it would've died,

uh, down within, uh, 10 minutes.

725

: 00:36:19

yeah.

726

: 00:36:19

So there were a ton of amazing people.

727

: 00:36:22

Um, it was spontaneous though.

728

: 00:36:26

Yeah.

729

: 00:36:27

Which I think is part of

why it was successful.

730

: 00:36:30

'cause if we all just go to

a park on Saturday and you

731

: 00:36:32

know about it for a month.

732

: 00:36:34

Right.

733

: 00:36:34

So there is a reason to do spontaneous

actions and part of that is, is

734

: 00:36:38

nobody knows what the, the power

that you're challenging doesn't

735

: 00:36:42

have time to prepare for it.

736

: 00:36:44

They don't know that it's coming

and it's then it's human based too.

737

: 00:36:49

And it's not up planned

action on Saturday.

738

: 00:36:52

This is happening.

739

: 00:36:53

It's a.

740

: 00:36:54

They took my friends,

we're gonna stop 'em.

741

: 00:36:56

Yeah.

742

: 00:36:56

And that is, to me, so much more

powerful than any planned uh, action.

743

: 00:37:02

Unless you keep it human and focused on

real things that are happening right then.

744

: 00:37:08

'cause it's really abstract.

745

: 00:37:09

Yeah.

746

: 00:37:09

If you're just talking about ice.

747

: 00:37:11

Yeah.

748

: 00:37:11

But if you're talking about Cesar and

Josar people, everybody knows and loves

749

: 00:37:16

you have and that is representative

of these bigger policies that we've

750

: 00:37:22

all gotta be concerned about, it's,

751

: 00:37:25

Luke: well, it's, I mean it's back to

the humanizing what we talk, it's like

752

: 00:37:28

the abstraction of like this policy

position that the Trump administration

753

: 00:37:32

has taken toward immigrants and

retroactively or, you know, post hoc

754

: 00:37:37

undoing things and sending people

who are here legally out country.

755

: 00:37:41

That's all, you know.

756

: 00:37:43

We can understand why that's

bad in theory, but Yeah.

757

: 00:37:46

When you put a face to

758

: 00:37:47

Ben: face to it, you know them.

759

: 00:37:49

Right.

760

: 00:37:50

Or if somebody, you know, knows 'em, the

degrees of separation is only one, then

761

: 00:37:54

yeah, I'm gonna go do something about it.

762

: 00:37:57

Luke: So when did you get picked up?

763

: 00:37:59

When did you get actually arrested?

764

: 00:38:00

Ben: I think it was seven 30.

765

: 00:38:01

Okay.

766

: 00:38:02

Um,

767

: 00:38:04

Luke: yeah, I think it, I saw that you

got, you actually got booked into the jail

768

: 00:38:07

around eight 10 or something like that.

769

: 00:38:08

Yeah.

770

: 00:38:08

So,

771

: 00:38:09

Ben: and I'd say that makes sense because

they hot boxed us for about 40 minutes in

772

: 00:38:12

Luke: the car.

773

: 00:38:13

In like a, in

774

: 00:38:13

Ben: a, yeah.

775

: 00:38:14

They parked the van in the, um, entryway

and then they turn it off and leave.

776

: 00:38:19

And we were in a closed van with

zero ventilation, um, in a room

777

: 00:38:24

that had zero ventilation that

was like 90 degrees outside.

778

: 00:38:28

And I think it, it was worse in the van

for that 40 minutes than the sauna I

779

: 00:38:36

was in at my friend's house a week ago.

780

: 00:38:39

Like, and I don't know how hot

saunas get, but you sweat a lot.

781

: 00:38:42

Yeah.

782

: 00:38:42

So we were all, there were six of

us in that side and then there were

783

: 00:38:47

two, I think on the other side.

784

: 00:38:49

And, uh, it was the worst thing.

785

: 00:38:52

And like out of the six of us, justice was

in our van and he'd been the only one of

786

: 00:38:57

six that had ever been arrested before.

787

: 00:38:59

Right.

788

: 00:39:00

And then Naida from the, the chair of

the Spokane down Democrats was in there.

789

: 00:39:05

And when the young woman beside me

started having a panic attack, literally

790

: 00:39:08

breathing, panic attack, had to go

to the bathroom, was overheated.

791

: 00:39:13

She's having a panic attack.

792

: 00:39:14

So, you know, we had group led

breathing exercises to, because

793

: 00:39:19

you're just dripping sweat.

794

: 00:39:21

And then I had, uh, the poor young woman

next to me had to use me as a wipe.

795

: 00:39:25

And then the woman on this side

of me had to use me as a wipe.

796

: 00:39:28

And I'm sweating.

797

: 00:39:30

So later at 2:00 AM when I'm getting my

clothes back and putting my clothes on.

798

: 00:39:34

'cause I did get an orange jumpsuit,

which I don't have a picture of me in

799

: 00:39:38

the orange jumpsuit, but I want one.

800

: 00:39:40

Um, but as I'm putting my

clothes on, I could, I drained.

801

: 00:39:45

You'd ring it out.

802

: 00:39:46

I rang my clothes out.

803

: 00:39:47

They were so sweaty from the hot

boxing, but so they hot boxed

804

: 00:39:52

us and that was the, to me, that

was just unnecessary and awful.

805

: 00:39:56

And I think it's probably designed to

pacify you before you go in for booking.

806

: 00:40:00

Wow.

807

: 00:40:01

Um, but when I was booking, I had

conversations with every employee

808

: 00:40:06

in that jail, and I'm figuring

out, I'm figuring out my thoughts

809

: 00:40:10

on the jail, but I know for a fact

that Did you talk to Ru about this?

810

: 00:40:13

Every part of that jail is old,

dirty, gross, disgusting, and

811

: 00:40:19

nobody should go to work there.

812

: 00:40:21

Yeah.

813

: 00:40:21

And it's inhumane working conditions.

814

: 00:40:24

And then when you get up to the

rooms, and I don't know, maybe they

815

: 00:40:27

were always clean and they just put

us in bad rooms, but I had eggshells

816

: 00:40:32

all over the floor and garbage all

over the floor and used toothbrushes

817

: 00:40:37

in our sink and used toothpaste

in our sink and bugs on the wall.

818

: 00:40:44

Um, and just dirt everywhere.

819

: 00:40:46

It was, it was disgusting.

820

: 00:40:50

And we better figure out as a community

what we're gonna do with our jail, because

821

: 00:40:54

right now nobody should be working or

being detained in the Spokane County Jail.

822

: 00:41:02

Awful.

823

: 00:41:02

Luke: Well, in any given day, there's

like seven to 800 people in that

824

: 00:41:05

Ben: jail.

825

: 00:41:06

Yeah.

826

: 00:41:06

And though that's, that's seven to 800

people in our community in the jail

827

: 00:41:10

that are being treated inanely and the

hundreds that work there every day.

828

: 00:41:15

And so we need to figure it out.

829

: 00:41:16

And I don't know how that works

because you've got a group of people

830

: 00:41:20

that are never gonna vote to increase

taxes over here on the right.

831

: 00:41:24

You've got the middle that wants a

compromise or wants a better justice

832

: 00:41:27

system, but would probably vote for it if

we came up with a better justice system

833

: 00:41:32

instead of just punishment base jail.

834

: 00:41:34

Yeah.

835

: 00:41:34

And then over here you've got

a group that's probably never

836

: 00:41:36

gonna vote for a jail at all.

837

: 00:41:38

Right, and I see all their points of view

because right now I'm paying taxes and

838

: 00:41:42

my taxes are going towards this jail.

839

: 00:41:44

That super inhumane, super inhumane.

840

: 00:41:47

But somehow they gotta figure out that

middle, where there's a better justice

841

: 00:41:51

system that everybody can get around

that's more based around smart justice,

842

: 00:41:55

but comes with a new detention center.

843

: 00:41:58

Because as long as we're putting

people in that detention center,

844

: 00:42:00

we are creating recidivism.

845

: 00:42:02

The, the structure itself and

the inhumane of it is creating

846

: 00:42:07

a problem in our justice system.

847

: 00:42:09

Luke: You know, when the, the last,

the failed jail thing happened?

848

: 00:42:12

What was that, two years ago?

849

: 00:42:13

Yeah.

850

: 00:42:13

Whatever the, the thing that was

maddening to me about that was, and

851

: 00:42:19

I know it was, it was put out by

the county, which, you know, it's a

852

: 00:42:23

conservative county commission that was,

was that before or was that right at the

853

: 00:42:27

beginning of the five commissioners era?

854

: 00:42:30

Ben: I don't remember

855

: 00:42:31

Luke: either way.

856

: 00:42:31

It's a majority of.

857

: 00:42:33

Like they, they were using data

that said we needed a jail that

858

: 00:42:36

could house 1500 or 2000 people.

859

: 00:42:40

And, uh, and um, like what ha when, when

they let half of the jail population

860

: 00:42:49

out, um, during COVID crime didn't go up.

861

: 00:42:52

And I know the dynamics of COVID

were strange, but the lockdowns only,

862

: 00:42:56

or, you know, the, the sheltering in

place only lasted like a month or so.

863

: 00:43:00

Right.

864

: 00:43:01

And those, and then it took two or

three years for the, the population

865

: 00:43:06

to get back up to kind of what

it historically been before.

866

: 00:43:08

And crime rates did not go up.

867

: 00:43:10

No.

868

: 00:43:10

We're tracking that

pretty closely, so, no.

869

: 00:43:12

Ben: So we need to be able to

think about what is criminal

870

: 00:43:15

justice and what is punishment.

871

: 00:43:17

Luke: Yeah.

872

: 00:43:18

Um, so did you get to chat either in the

van ride over or, or subsequently with

873

: 00:43:24

Justice and like how, what was their

frame of mind like and did they know?

874

: 00:43:28

At the time that they, like

everybody else was getting a

875

: 00:43:31

misdemeanor failure to disperse and

they were getting a, a seven count

876

: 00:43:34

Ben: felony.

877

: 00:43:35

No, no.

878

: 00:43:35

I don't think justice knew

what was coming at all.

879

: 00:43:38

Yeah.

880

: 00:43:38

Um, no, they didn't mention that at all.

881

: 00:43:42

Um, there's this psychological thing

that happens and I, I did talk to

882

: 00:43:47

a therapist about it the other day.

883

: 00:43:49

Yeah.

884

: 00:43:50

Um, yesterday, in fact, because there,

I know there are people that were there.

885

: 00:43:56

I know there's therapists that are

actually working to, uh, provide

886

: 00:44:00

free services to people that were

there that are experiencing PTSD.

887

: 00:44:04

Right.

888

: 00:44:05

Um, and I'm trying to get

that list so I can share it.

889

: 00:44:08

Um, so that, 'cause I got a

pretty wide reach right now.

890

: 00:44:11

Yeah.

891

: 00:44:11

Um, but I also had this, and I,

I don't know how to describe it.

892

: 00:44:16

and I saw somebody writing

about it online, and so I,

893

: 00:44:19

There's a point, I think, and I don't

know in what this takes place,

894

: 00:44:24

but when I got arrested and short, like

shortly before I got arrested, 15 minutes,

895

: 00:44:32

I went into this place of, um, complete

peace in my head and I knew what was

896

: 00:44:39

gonna happen and I was okay with it.

897

: 00:44:42

Yeah.

898

: 00:44:42

And I was actually joyful about it.

899

: 00:44:44

Mm-hmm.

900

: 00:44:45

And I don't know what that is, if

it's when you're, um, doing something

901

: 00:44:51

that you know is the right thing to

do and you're just at peace with it.

902

: 00:44:55

Yeah.

903

: 00:44:55

Or what, but when I got arrested, I,

I was stopping myself from smiling.

904

: 00:45:03

Um, and I was stopping myself

from smiling because I thought

905

: 00:45:07

that would look like a real boob.

906

: 00:45:09

Like my lawyer said, if you

get arrested, you're a boob.

907

: 00:45:12

Um, but I thought it'd look

really like a boob if I, uh,

908

: 00:45:16

was smiling as I got arrested.

909

: 00:45:17

But I was completely at peace with it.

910

: 00:45:19

And then I was reading, uh, somebody

that was down there, uh, his blog

911

: 00:45:22

yesterday and they're a therapist that

was writing the blog and they were

912

: 00:45:27

like, they described it as a moment

of zen during the confrontation.

913

: 00:45:31

Like they just, like, you go

outside yourself and you're just

914

: 00:45:33

like totally at peace with it.

915

: 00:45:35

Mm-hmm.

916

: 00:45:35

So like the um, ride over with six of

us was a bit of comradery, I gotta say.

917

: 00:45:41

Like, 'cause you've all just

gone through something that

918

: 00:45:44

may be considered traumatic.

919

: 00:45:46

Like, I thought it'd be a lot

more traumatic getting arrested.

920

: 00:45:48

But me, I'm, I'm not

like a fighting arrest.

921

: 00:45:51

I'm like, I knew a couple of the

cops that were arresting me and

922

: 00:45:54

was talk, I was talking to him

about, uh, the chief and yeah.

923

: 00:45:58

You know, I'm just an idiot.

924

: 00:45:59

How's it going with the new

chief as I'm getting arrested?

925

: 00:46:02

Yeah, right.

926

: 00:46:03

Um, but I was totally at peace

with it, and I think justice was

927

: 00:46:08

at peace with what was happening.

928

: 00:46:10

And you could sense that.

929

: 00:46:11

I think everybody in our van was at peace

with what was happening because my God,

930

: 00:46:16

you're just trying to protect people

that are being wrongfully detained.

931

: 00:46:18

I don't know what else to do.

932

: 00:46:20

Yeah.

933

: 00:46:20

Like I feel like if you're in a

situation where you feel like you

934

: 00:46:23

don't have a choice and you just gotta

act, you feel different about things.

935

: 00:46:28

Yeah.

936

: 00:46:28

I don't know.

937

: 00:46:29

I, I don't know if that makes

any sense what I'm saying.

938

: 00:46:31

No, there's does, there's like some moment

of in that came across me that I don't

939

: 00:46:34

think I've ever felt my entire life.

940

: 00:46:36

Yeah.

941

: 00:46:36

And then you feel like

almost guilt about that.

942

: 00:46:38

Like, why would I feel good

about getting arrested?

943

: 00:46:41

Luke: Well maybe it's 'cause you knew

you're, you were probably gonna be one

944

: 00:46:44

of the ones that had the misdemeanor

and not the seven count felonies.

945

: 00:46:48

Like, oh, I

946

: 00:46:49

Ben: don't know.

947

: 00:46:49

The rumors are flying that there's

gonna be a federal grand jury.

948

: 00:46:52

Luke: So on that topic, I know you

handed your phone off to your wife.

949

: 00:46:56

Yeah.

950

: 00:46:57

You said they kept Justice's

phone and, and there are just

951

: 00:47:00

rumors flying that they've been

handed over to the FBI or Oh yeah.

952

: 00:47:05

I've involved

953

: 00:47:05

Ben: two people specifically messaged me.

954

: 00:47:08

Mothers that their, uh, one was their son

got arrested with their phone and another

955

: 00:47:13

was her daughter had been arrested.

956

: 00:47:15

And they told 'em when they called

to get their phones back the next

957

: 00:47:18

day, um, they were given an agent

at the FBI's name and number.

958

: 00:47:22

Oh, wow.

959

: 00:47:23

So FBI has the phones.

960

: 00:47:24

Okay, we'll follow up.

961

: 00:47:25

And so nobody about

962

: 00:47:25

Luke: that.

963

: 00:47:26

That's a, that's a story we

wanna track down is like, what,

964

: 00:47:28

FBI doesn't have the phones

965

: 00:47:29

Ben: unless they're breaking into 'em

and trying to file some federal charges.

966

: 00:47:32

Well, and

967

: 00:47:33

Luke: we saw some stuff online where

people were saying like, there's a random,

968

: 00:47:36

you know, a, a Windows computer in Tacoma

or something that's, um, that's like

969

: 00:47:43

trying to log in and I've, I don't know, a

Windows computer, so it can't be me trying

970

: 00:47:47

to log into my Gmail account or whatever.

971

: 00:47:49

So it really, and again, like this is

all like, just the, the threads of what

972

: 00:47:54

might make a story outta that, but it

really does seem like they're trying

973

: 00:47:58

to, they're trying to find if this is a

network or, or they're trying to like.

974

: 00:48:03

Draw connections between

people is what it sounds like.

975

: 00:48:05

Oh yeah.

976

: 00:48:05

It was a

977

: 00:48:05

Ben: huge conspiracy.

978

: 00:48:06

Me posting a post on Facebook.

979

: 00:48:08

Yeah.

980

: 00:48:08

Whatever.

981

: 00:48:09

What a bunch of weirdos,

but like seriously.

982

: 00:48:12

Yeah.

983

: 00:48:13

Come on.

984

: 00:48:14

Did you think I knew that my

friends would get detained and I,

985

: 00:48:18

we sat the night before 45 of us.

986

: 00:48:20

What a bunch of Yeah.

987

: 00:48:22

Like just, they're so desperate to,

you know, you saw the post about

988

: 00:48:28

how like, I'm sexually abusing those

young men and that's why they got,

989

: 00:48:32

they turned themselves into ice.

990

: 00:48:34

Yeah.

991

: 00:48:35

That was wild.

992

: 00:48:36

And like, and then they're like, why does

a 21-year-old young man need a guardian?

993

: 00:48:40

Well, of course been sexually abusing him.

994

: 00:48:43

Yeah.

995

: 00:48:43

Like they're so desperate to like,

come up with some other reason other

996

: 00:48:48

than, man, they took my friends.

997

: 00:48:52

Yeah.

998

: 00:48:52

Like, that's as simple.

999

: 00:48:53

It's as simple as it gets.

: 1000

00:48:55,634 --> 00:48:59,654

Either I go home or I try to

stop 'em from taking my friends.

: 1001

00:48:59,654 --> 00:49:02,204

It's a, I don't know what

other option we have because.

: 1002

00:49:02,534 --> 00:49:04,094

The legal system isn't working.

: 1003

00:49:04,424 --> 00:49:06,044

Uh, they came here legally.

: 1004

00:49:06,344 --> 00:49:09,134

They went to a check-in

and they kidnapped him.

: 1005

00:49:09,464 --> 00:49:11,744

So what else do you have

other than to stop 'em?

: 1006

00:49:11,954 --> 00:49:13,454

It's not some nefarious plot.

: 1007

00:49:13,724 --> 00:49:15,284

There's nobody paying people.

: 1008

00:49:15,764 --> 00:49:19,994

I like got a call from a friend works

at Gonzaga and she said she was with

: 1009

00:49:19,994 --> 00:49:22,934

some pretty moderate folks the other

day and they were like, well, yeah, Ben

: 1010

00:49:22,934 --> 00:49:24,884

Stucker got paid to do that whole thing.

: 1011

00:49:25,424 --> 00:49:26,444

Holy crap.

: 1012

00:49:27,074 --> 00:49:27,614

Oh wow.

: 1013

00:49:27,614 --> 00:49:29,264

Like that's absurd.

: 1014

00:49:29,534 --> 00:49:36,104

That is ab That is, that is absolutely

absurd that somebody figured out

: 1015

00:49:36,104 --> 00:49:39,824

that my friends were gonna get taken

that day and paid me to act out.

: 1016

00:49:40,064 --> 00:49:40,424

Yeah.

: 1017

00:49:41,424 --> 00:49:44,274

Can't we just accept that we

should care for each other?

: 1018

00:49:44,574 --> 00:49:44,874

Yeah.

: 1019

00:49:44,874 --> 00:49:48,264

And that should be the driving

force of everything is caring

: 1020

00:49:48,534 --> 00:49:50,124

for our fellow human beings.

: 1021

00:49:50,124 --> 00:49:50,298

I

: 1022

00:49:50,304 --> 00:49:50,604

Luke: don't know.

: 1023

00:49:51,384 --> 00:49:56,124

I do think it, it seems like the, as

far as I can tell from social media

: 1024

00:49:56,124 --> 00:49:59,544

and not just the circles that I run

in, but it really does seem like.

: 1025

00:50:00,024 --> 00:50:00,894

This is on Reddit.

: 1026

00:50:00,894 --> 00:50:02,184

It's kind of all over.

: 1027

00:50:02,184 --> 00:50:07,734

It's like the comments on the, like,

I mean, I feel like I have to read

: 1028

00:50:07,734 --> 00:50:11,394

the comments of nude stories because

it's kind of my job, but like I don't,

: 1029

00:50:11,664 --> 00:50:12,834

I don't recommend other people do.

: 1030

00:50:12,834 --> 00:50:18,064

It's like even in the worst corners

of the most toxic corners of the

: 1031

00:50:18,064 --> 00:50:22,444

local internet, it feels like at

least a plurality of people thought

: 1032

00:50:22,444 --> 00:50:23,734

that this was the right move.

: 1033

00:50:24,064 --> 00:50:27,653

And, um, in a lot of places, I think

it was the overwhelming immaturity.

: 1034

00:50:27,934 --> 00:50:31,384

So I wanted, maybe we could finish up

with, um, talking about solidarity.

: 1035

00:50:31,384 --> 00:50:34,054

So you're the, you're the executive

director of a Spokane low income

: 1036

00:50:34,054 --> 00:50:35,764

housing consortium right Now.

: 1037

00:50:35,764 --> 00:50:39,124

You obviously have a, a life in

politics before that, but like low

: 1038

00:50:39,124 --> 00:50:43,894

income, one of the things that's

really struck me is how much solidarity

: 1039

00:50:43,894 --> 00:50:46,384

there was three days later at Pride.

: 1040

00:50:46,774 --> 00:50:52,504

With where like, I don't know, 10 years

ago, I don't think that like pride

: 1041

00:50:52,564 --> 00:50:58,084

and like, and immigration would've

been as tightly joined as they were.

: 1042

00:50:58,444 --> 00:51:01,144

They had a little bit of, they had a

Stonewall rally for the first year.

: 1043

00:51:01,144 --> 00:51:06,064

This year you told me that you, you're

board of people who care about low income,

: 1044

00:51:06,094 --> 00:51:08,284

you know, housing for low income folks.

: 1045

00:51:08,734 --> 00:51:11,164

You let them know that this was gonna

happen and you were probably gonna

: 1046

00:51:11,164 --> 00:51:12,664

get arrested and you were supported.

: 1047

00:51:12,664 --> 00:51:17,644

It feels like, in a way that was just

kind of beginning to come into being, or

: 1048

00:51:17,644 --> 00:51:22,264

people were sort of testing the waters of

that level of like, just whatever your,

: 1049

00:51:22,294 --> 00:51:27,634

your main issue is that you're advocating

on coming together to support immigrants

: 1050

00:51:27,634 --> 00:51:32,044

and hoping that then the folks who care

about immigration are gonna support like

: 1051

00:51:32,044 --> 00:51:33,544

a low income housing fight or something.

: 1052

00:51:33,784 --> 00:51:35,584

It feels like that's really it.

: 1053

00:51:35,584 --> 00:51:38,224

It just felt overwhelmingly

like there was so much more.

: 1054

00:51:39,184 --> 00:51:43,594

Or at least the, the solidarity that I, I

feel like I start, we were starting to see

: 1055

00:51:43,594 --> 00:51:46,864

in: 2020

: 1056

00:51:47,494 --> 00:51:48,874

Yeah, a hundred percent.

: 1057

00:51:48,874 --> 00:51:49,124

And I'd

: 1058

00:51:49,144 --> 00:51:52,684

Ben: say, uh, so while I was there

protesting, and it was about four

: 1059

00:51:52,684 --> 00:51:58,504

o'clock, and I talked to my board chair

who's the, um, CEO of Habitat humanity.

: 1060

00:51:58,509 --> 00:52:02,434

And I apologized for what was happening

and I wasn't working that afternoon.

: 1061

00:52:03,064 --> 00:52:06,934

And that there's a great potential that

the mayor at that point was talking

: 1062

00:52:06,934 --> 00:52:08,614

about sending the police and Yeah.

: 1063

00:52:08,824 --> 00:52:11,974

And, uh, I apologized to her

and she said, absolutely.

: 1064

00:52:11,974 --> 00:52:12,364

Not.

: 1065

00:52:12,844 --> 00:52:16,864

You don't apologize at all because

everybody deserves an affordable house

: 1066

00:52:16,864 --> 00:52:18,634

in Spokane, and that includes everybody.

: 1067

00:52:18,634 --> 00:52:21,244

And that's what you're out there

trying to do is keep our boys home.

: 1068

00:52:21,994 --> 00:52:25,354

Um, solidarity is where it's at.

: 1069

00:52:25,564 --> 00:52:27,424

That's how we show our common humanity.

: 1070

00:52:27,424 --> 00:52:27,484

Yeah.

: 1071

00:52:28,144 --> 00:52:33,664

Um, and that's how we, if you're, I don't

care what you're working in, if you're

: 1072

00:52:33,664 --> 00:52:38,254

working in banking, you want clients,

you want good clients that are working.

: 1073

00:52:38,569 --> 00:52:40,849

So we care for the immigrant population.

: 1074

00:52:40,939 --> 00:52:43,039

You want good employees, you're

gonna make sure you care for the

: 1075

00:52:43,039 --> 00:52:48,649

LGBT community because it's, they're

outstanding members of our community.

: 1076

00:52:48,649 --> 00:52:50,929

Like we gotta show solidarity.

: 1077

00:52:50,929 --> 00:52:55,319

And it was, it's absolutely amazing

when you think about like and

: 1078

00:52:55,409 --> 00:52:57,509

advocacy organization for housing.

: 1079

00:52:58,139 --> 00:53:02,339

I'm spending my time as well protecting

other members of our community.

: 1080

00:53:02,339 --> 00:53:03,749

And that's exactly how it has to be.

: 1081

00:53:03,749 --> 00:53:10,199

Because when Jennifer and Amy and Ann

and I sat outside because Amy and Ann

: 1082

00:53:10,199 --> 00:53:13,199

and I were in the waiting room, and

then we called Jennifer was the first

: 1083

00:53:13,199 --> 00:53:16,889

call we made, and Jennifer looked at me

and she said, this can't come from me.

: 1084

00:53:17,459 --> 00:53:20,519

It can't come from the

immigrant community anymore.

: 1085

00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:20,609

Yeah.

: 1086

00:53:20,609 --> 00:53:23,339

It needs to be, it needs

to be white people.

: 1087

00:53:23,729 --> 00:53:23,999

Yeah.

: 1088

00:53:24,999 --> 00:53:28,224

And that's, it needs to be

each of us protecting each of

: 1089

00:53:28,224 --> 00:53:30,054

us and using our privilege.

: 1090

00:53:30,924 --> 00:53:33,324

If I have a following and.

: 1091

00:53:33,774 --> 00:53:38,424

I have a, a, a wife that can not

get arrested and I can get arrested

: 1092

00:53:38,424 --> 00:53:42,534

though, and she can take care of the

dog, then I need to get arrested.

: 1093

00:53:42,534 --> 00:53:45,744

That's what we, each need to do is

take care of each other and show that

: 1094

00:53:45,744 --> 00:53:52,884

solidarity and be willing to use our

privilege because we, we, I have a very,

: 1095

00:53:52,884 --> 00:53:57,144

very comfortable life and if I can use

that to protect others, then I have to.

: 1096

00:53:57,444 --> 00:53:57,504

Yeah.

: 1097

00:53:57,564 --> 00:53:59,664

And at this point, what are we gonna do?

: 1098

00:54:00,204 --> 00:54:03,534

We, we're in a really bad

situation as a country.

: 1099

00:54:03,714 --> 00:54:03,834

Yeah.

: 1100

00:54:04,014 --> 00:54:05,694

A really horrible situation.

: 1101

00:54:05,694 --> 00:54:07,254

That's heartbreaking for so many.

: 1102

00:54:07,794 --> 00:54:10,554

We need to show solidarity with

each other and put our lives

: 1103

00:54:10,554 --> 00:54:11,574

on the line for each other.

: 1104

00:54:11,754 --> 00:54:11,904

Yeah.

: 1105

00:54:12,114 --> 00:54:12,894

It's all we can do.

: 1106

00:54:13,074 --> 00:54:13,824

It's all we have.

: 1107

00:54:14,694 --> 00:54:15,047

So where

: 1108

00:54:15,054 --> 00:54:18,234

Luke: did, just to end, um, I mean

I guess that was, I like asking

: 1109

00:54:18,234 --> 00:54:19,344

where people get their hope.

: 1110

00:54:19,344 --> 00:54:21,594

I'm, I guessing that that's

kind of where you get your hope.

: 1111

00:54:21,594 --> 00:54:25,014

Is the solidarity you found in,

in the line, or where, where are

: 1112

00:54:25,014 --> 00:54:26,064

you finding your hope right now?

: 1113

00:54:26,904 --> 00:54:32,124

Ben: I just, my friends showing up,

people showing up the other day that.

: 1114

00:54:32,484 --> 00:54:36,084

Had no relationship with the boys,

willing to, you know, when you're

: 1115

00:54:36,084 --> 00:54:39,894

sharing a, um, Martin was my cellmate.

: 1116

00:54:40,614 --> 00:54:40,674

Mm.

: 1117

00:54:40,854 --> 00:54:46,764

Um, I just like saying that my

cellmate, um, Martin was my cellmate.

: 1118

00:54:46,764 --> 00:54:47,994

Martin is 19.

: 1119

00:54:48,359 --> 00:54:48,579

Wow.

: 1120

00:54:48,584 --> 00:54:48,954

Wow.

: 1121

00:54:49,134 --> 00:54:53,454

Martin has other legal problems that this

could really negatively affect his life.

: 1122

00:54:54,654 --> 00:54:57,024

And yesterday I finally found him.

: 1123

00:54:57,624 --> 00:55:02,394

He found me and messaged me and then I

messaged him back and it's his birthday.

: 1124

00:55:02,394 --> 00:55:04,404

And, uh, his birthday was Friday.

: 1125

00:55:05,034 --> 00:55:10,944

Um, when he turned 19, the kid's 18 years

old, going to jail for other people.

: 1126

00:55:11,544 --> 00:55:14,904

And I asked him how he was doing and

he said, just bring those boys back.

: 1127

00:55:15,324 --> 00:55:15,564

Hmm.

: 1128

00:55:15,594 --> 00:55:19,104

He doesn't know those boys,

but he cares about those boys.

: 1129

00:55:19,104 --> 00:55:21,954

And that's what we all gotta keep hope

on, is we each care for each other

: 1130

00:55:21,954 --> 00:55:23,394

and we keep fighting for each other.

: 1131

00:55:23,904 --> 00:55:24,027

'cause

: 1132

00:55:24,054 --> 00:55:25,014

Luke: it's all we got left.

: 1133

00:55:25,704 --> 00:55:28,944

And it's like the, the transitive

property, it's like if.

: 1134

00:55:29,544 --> 00:55:33,264

I care about Ben, and Ben cares about

these boys, I'm gonna show up for Ben

: 1135

00:55:33,264 --> 00:55:35,544

and the boys, or, you know, whatever.

: 1136

00:55:35,634 --> 00:55:36,174

Um,

: 1137

00:55:36,684 --> 00:55:37,974

Ben: or if I ever get taken.

: 1138

00:55:38,694 --> 00:55:40,854

Well, yeah, I, I hope people show

up for me that don't know me.

: 1139

00:55:41,094 --> 00:55:41,304

Yeah.

: 1140

00:55:41,574 --> 00:55:47,874

And we, and kinda just stick

the, stick the stick in the

: 1141

00:55:47,874 --> 00:55:49,794

spoke and destroy the machine.

: 1142

00:55:50,154 --> 00:55:51,174

So is that It's a bad machine.

: 1143

00:55:51,174 --> 00:55:51,774

It's broken.

: 1144

00:55:52,284 --> 00:55:58,644

We've transferred $79 trillion worth of

wealth to the top 10% of our country.

: 1145

00:55:58,644 --> 00:55:59,964

Over the last 40 years.

: 1146

00:56:00,324 --> 00:56:04,374

$79 trillion of wealth has gone

from the lower class and the

: 1147

00:56:04,374 --> 00:56:06,534

middle class to the upper class.

: 1148

00:56:06,774 --> 00:56:10,494

We have destroyed our country

with money and politics.

: 1149

00:56:10,734 --> 00:56:14,904

We have destroyed our country

with tax cuts to the rich in

: 1150

00:56:14,904 --> 00:56:16,674

an unfair, unequal system.

: 1151

00:56:16,674 --> 00:56:21,204

And you saw it in Washington State where

the Democrats control the, the governor's

: 1152

00:56:21,204 --> 00:56:23,304

office, the Senate, and the House.

: 1153

00:56:23,814 --> 00:56:26,304

And certain Senate members and

house members came up with a

: 1154

00:56:26,304 --> 00:56:29,904

progressive tax measure because

Washington State is the second

: 1155

00:56:31,164 --> 00:56:33,774

worst, most aggressive tax structure.

: 1156

00:56:33,774 --> 00:56:33,834

Yeah.

: 1157

00:56:33,834 --> 00:56:34,434

49th.

: 1158

00:56:34,824 --> 00:56:37,044

If you're progressive, you'd be first.

: 1159

00:56:37,314 --> 00:56:41,994

Washington is 49th in the country

in horrible tax systems that tax

: 1160

00:56:42,024 --> 00:56:43,944

the poor more than the wealthy.

: 1161

00:56:44,184 --> 00:56:45,864

They put forward proposals.

: 1162

00:56:46,524 --> 00:56:50,784

And my understanding from everybody I've

talked to in that legislature that works

: 1163

00:56:50,784 --> 00:56:54,864

over there in a variety of manners is,

is the billionaires in Washington state

: 1164

00:56:55,344 --> 00:56:59,304

have an avenue to our governor's office

and to the heads of our political parties

: 1165

00:56:59,544 --> 00:57:01,734

and put a quash to 'em and went like this.

: 1166

00:57:01,824 --> 00:57:01,974

Yeah.

: 1167

00:57:02,094 --> 00:57:05,901

And that's absolutely So if the

Democrats can't get it done, then

: 1168

00:57:05,901 --> 00:57:07,281

get rid of the Democrats too.

: 1169

00:57:07,806 --> 00:57:09,306

Politics does not matter.

: 1170

00:57:09,516 --> 00:57:14,046

It's, it's no longer a matter of

what's the least worst alternative

: 1171

00:57:14,196 --> 00:57:16,679

we need to fix this because it

ends up, it's not just Trump.

: 1172

00:57:16,979 --> 00:57:20,879

We can get rid of Trump, but if

we're transferring $79 trillion worth

: 1173

00:57:20,879 --> 00:57:26,969

of wealth to the top 10%, that's,

that's a permanent mis structure that

: 1174

00:57:26,969 --> 00:57:29,009

has to be radically restructured.

: 1175

00:57:29,309 --> 00:57:32,039

And the only way that we're gonna

do that is radically restructure our

: 1176

00:57:32,039 --> 00:57:35,159

political system and our political

parties and throw them all out.

: 1177

00:57:36,134 --> 00:57:38,954

Luke: I mean, I, I just posted about

this article I read in the Atlantic

: 1178

00:57:38,954 --> 00:57:40,994

that baby boomers are struggling.

: 1179

00:57:40,994 --> 00:57:42,194

Like we knew Gen X was struggling.

: 1180

00:57:42,194 --> 00:57:45,254

We knew millennials and and

Zoomers are struggling financially.

: 1181

00:57:45,284 --> 00:57:48,884

There's like this Atlantic article

that just dropped yesterday that, so

: 1182

00:57:48,884 --> 00:57:53,534

this, this whole PO post-war, you know,

abundance that we created after World

: 1183

00:57:53,534 --> 00:57:58,514

War II and took our, and, you know, our

military industrial, you know, a, a big

: 1184

00:57:58,514 --> 00:58:02,324

chunk of the war production and turned

it to, you know, building the suburbs

: 1185

00:58:02,324 --> 00:58:06,524

and building the freeways that didn't

even last two full generations, right?

: 1186

00:58:06,524 --> 00:58:10,274

So now we have the fir the children

of the people that built that

: 1187

00:58:10,274 --> 00:58:13,934

system are struggling to survive as

they reach retirement and beyond.

: 1188

00:58:14,594 --> 00:58:20,414

Um, and, and then to your point

about the Democrats, like this is all

: 1189

00:58:20,414 --> 00:58:24,734

national stuff, but it really felt

like echoed in what we were hearing

: 1190

00:58:24,734 --> 00:58:27,974

from people who were fighting for

those more progressive measures.

: 1191

00:58:28,394 --> 00:58:30,464

Um, at the state legislature this year.

: 1192

00:58:30,464 --> 00:58:31,094

Was that like.

: 1193

00:58:32,144 --> 00:58:35,984

The, the poll that just came out that

like trumps at like a 38% approval

: 1194

00:58:35,984 --> 00:58:40,184

rating and the, and the congressional

Republicans are at a 31% approval

: 1195

00:58:40,184 --> 00:58:41,294

rating, which would be great.

: 1196

00:58:41,294 --> 00:58:43,828

Except the demo Democrats are,

Democrats are at like 25 or something.

: 1197

00:59:07,572 --> 00:59:07,632

Yeah.

: 1198

00:59:07,962 --> 00:59:14,892

So it's like everybody hates everything

that's going on in our country and it

: 1199

00:59:14,892 --> 00:59:17,682

feels like, so I guess then, you know,

we've already gone to hope, there's

: 1200

00:59:17,682 --> 00:59:20,232

no alternative and we're follow,

we're sliding back into despair.

: 1201

00:59:20,472 --> 00:59:25,902

So like it really does you think that

like going forward and, and for this

: 1202

00:59:25,902 --> 00:59:29,922

summer and in Spokane really it's just

throwing, putting something in the

: 1203

00:59:29,922 --> 00:59:31,527

spokes is like really all we can do burn.

: 1204

00:59:31,543 --> 00:59:32,353

Ben: Burn it down Luke.

: 1205

00:59:32,713 --> 00:59:33,853

Yeah, burn it all down.

: 1206

00:59:34,573 --> 00:59:34,723

Alright.

: 1207

00:59:34,783 --> 00:59:36,193

I've been totally radicalized.

: 1208

00:59:36,583 --> 00:59:38,053

I'm totally radicalized.

: 1209

00:59:38,773 --> 00:59:41,773

I've always been a very

progressive person, but I'm

: 1210

00:59:41,773 --> 00:59:43,093

finished playing by their rules.

: 1211

00:59:43,273 --> 00:59:43,693

It's done.

: 1212

00:59:44,383 --> 00:59:46,873

Luke: Well Ben Stucker, thanks

for, thanks for taking the time in.

: 1213

00:59:46,873 --> 00:59:47,473

I really appreciate it.

: 1214

00:59:48,163 --> 00:59:48,643

Ben: Thanks Luke.

: 1215

00:59:48,853 --> 00:59:50,017

Appreciate all arranged us.

Share Episode

Shownotes

Transcripts

Follow

Links

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube