Baltimore’s harbor is calm, but resident artist Joan Cox is gathering momentum. Since her last appearance with NOT REAL ART, she’s been named a finalist for the Baker Artist Award, recognized among London’s Top 100 International Artists, and seen her intimate portraits circulate through exhibitions and publications. A past NOT REAL ART grant winner (2022), Joan is known for capturing the “energy field” of love between women. Now, her work takes center stage in NOT REAL ART’s Modern Love exhibition, running online at notrealart.com this spring.

In conversation with host Scott “Sourdough” Power, Joan reflects on the work of recording contemporary queer intimacy. She describes her process, from asking strangers to sit for her, to searching for the subtle charge that passes between couples, all while managing the demands of a full-time career and raising a middle-schooler.

Her canvases are lush and unscripted, dense with narrative detail—bedroom Buddhas, floral wallpaper in the corner of a bar. Beneath the surface, each painting offers an act of correction, adding a page to art history where overlooked couples are seen, valued, and, at last, collected.

Where to Connect & Experience

See Joan Cox’s latest work in Modern Love.

Follow Joan on Instagram for in-progress shots and behind-the-scenes studio news.

Learn more about the NOT REAL ART Grant.

Episode Credits

Host: Scott ‘Sourdough’ Power

Guest: Joan Cox, Baltimore-based painter focused on queer intimacy, identity, and representation; NOT REAL ART grant winner.

Production: Crewest Studio, Los Angeles

Theme Music: Ricky Peugeot & Desi DeLauro of Parlor Social

Subscribe to NOT REAL ART for future episodes, follow us on Instagram, and join the conversation.

The Not Real Art podcast is intended for creative audiences only.

The Not Real Art podcast celebrates creativity and creative culture worldwide.

It contains material that is fresh, fun, and inspiring and is not suitable for boring old art snobs.

Now, let's get started and enjoy the show.

Greetings and salutations, my creative brothers and sisters.

Welcome to Not Real Art, the podcast where we talk to the world's most creative people.

I am your host.

Faithful, trusty, loyal, tireless, relentless host.

Sourdough, coming at you from Crew West Studio in Los Angeles.

How are you people?

Thanks for tuning in.

We so appreciate your loyalty.

We do this for you.

It's all about you, and we so appreciate you being here today.

We have a special show.

We have a special show for a couple of reasons.

She's an incredible painter, incredible human, and we're just so grateful to have her as part of our community, but also have her back on the show to talk about what's going on in her career these days.

So I'm thrilled to have her back on the show.

Another reason she's on the show is because she's going to be an artist that we're featuring in our upcoming first Friday's exhibition online Modern Love, starting May 1, running through July online at notrealart.com Modern Love is an incredible exhibition exploring exactly that.

What, you know, what love looks like today is very different than maybe what love looked like 50 years ago, 100 years ago.

And it's a.

It's an incredibly powerful concept.

And Joan is a perfect artist to have in the show, given her roots in the LGBTQ community and the subjects of her work, which tend to be members of the LGBTQ community.

And so we're thrilled to have Joan back on the show.

We love Joan, we love her work, and we're excited that she's part of this Modern Love exhibition.

First Friday's exhibition that's coming up May 1st, so please be sure to check that [email protected] so, without further ado, let's get into this wonderful conversation I had with the one and only Joan Cox.

Joan Cox, welcome back to Not Real Art.

Thank you.

I can't believe it.

It's like the third time returning champion.

Make me feel famous or something.

Yeah, well, you are famous, and that's part of the reason why we're here, to talk.

I mean, you know, I know that One of the beautiful things about our relationship is that you happen to be one of our alumni, one of our grant recipients from a few years back.

And so we're honored and privileged to have you as part of our little world here in our community.

But it's been a couple of years since I've seen you and chatted with you.

It's so wonderful to see you again.

There's so much ground to cover.

How the heck are you, my friend?

Where in the world are you right now?

I am in Baltimore, Maryland.

I'm sitting looking at the gorgeous harbor and I am fantastic.

Fantastic.

I love it.

I love it.

Why are you fantastic?

Well, because last week, one of the many things that I regularly apply for, I finally got selected for which is the Baltimore Baker Artist Awards.

I'm a finalist and that means a group exhibition and it means a chance to win a ten thousand dollar grant.

Oh, fantastic.

So you're so, you know that you're in the running or you are getting that.

I mean, like what, what's the, you know, what's the process?

So I am in the running.

I'm a finalist.

There are five other artists who are two dimensional who I'm competing with for the top prize of $10,000.

All right, well, I mean, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're lighting candles, we're doing whatever we have to do to, to coax the gods into smiling on you for this.

Yes.

And the anonymous jurors.

Exactly.

That's what it's about.

But besides that, just in the last couple of months, I got second place in an international United Women Art prize, the Visual Art association out of London.

I got named in their top 100 international artists.

And I've been in maybe three different publications and lots of exhibitions.

Yeah, you've been busy.

To say the least.

Been busy.

And making the work.

And making work.

Making work.

Are you, you know, if I remember, memory serves, you were juggling, you know, a couple years back, you were juggling both your art practice as well as a full time career.

Are you still doing that?

I mean, how.

As a, as a graphic designer.

Correct.

And, and correct.

Yeah.

So are we still doing that or are you able to.

Oh, totally.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes.

The world is very expensive these days.

It is.

You got to pay the bills.

Yeah.

Gotta pay the bills.

And I, I guess really my mission is to get my work collected by museums and institutions and not so much sell like, you know, 100 paintings every weekend at some art festival.

Right.

That's not My goal.

You're trying to make history, not necessarily make money.

Yeah, exactly.

It might come with money one day, but it.

Right now I'm making the money to invest in my own art career.

It cost me more than I earned from it.

Yeah.

You know, I had a conversation a while back with an artist, and I don't know if this is fair, but we were just talking about it.

I was like, you know, it sort of feels like there are three reasons why any artist, you know, may want to make art.

And, you know, and they're all legitimate, but they're sort of like, they're all very different.

And you kind of need to understand why you're doing it, why you're making work.

Right.

And one very legitimate reason to make work, of course, is for sheer joy and passion and no other reason.

Just, you know, as a hobby or as a passion project or what have you.

Just for joy.

Right.

Then there's another very legitimate reason to make work, and that is, of course, to try to sell it and make money and pay your bills and have a life.

And then there is the third and perhaps the last, maybe not the only, I don't know, option of making work to make history.

And understanding what lane you're on, understanding what your goals are is really, really important to understand the kind of decisions that you have to make.

Exactly.

Because there's decisions every week.

Like there are opportunities that you should take and some that you should pass.

Right.

Because they take too much time and energy and they take you off the mission.

Yeah.

So if, you know, and you're not trying to do it all or be at all, then you can make those decisions on the spot when the time comes.

Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, making.

To make, you know, making work to make history, you know, it's just going to require different calculus than if you're trying to make money, which, again, totally legitimate, but you're probably going to have to try to make work that sells, not necessarily work that stands the test of time.

Right.

It's the long game.

And it's also understanding what I'm doing in the studio and how it relates to the rest of painting across history.

And it now compares to other contemporary painters.

Yeah, well, that's about.

Part of that is about understanding your voice and finding your voice as an artist.

Right.

And so.

And obviously that's an ongoing thing.

I mean, I sort of was saying the other day, I sort of feel like this idea of being an emerging artist is a bit of a misnomer because, I mean, it feels like you know, because when we talk about emerging artists, I think the implication is that we're talking about young kind of up and coming artists.

And the reality is, any artist that's truly working to evolve and develop, I mean, they're all emerging.

We're all emerging.

Right.

We're emerging from where we were yesterday, and hopefully tomorrow we'll emerge from where we were today.

And, you know, in that journey and finding your voice, because it's going to evolve as you continue to reinvent and rediscover and, you know, so.

So, you know, when do you feel like you found your voice as an artist?

When you started to feel like, oh, I'm starting to find my voice now.

Like, I know what I'm trying to say with my work.

It's really clear for me, it was in graduate school.

Yeah, talk about that.

It was one studio visitor who came in and looked at what I was doing and said, okay, you know, I really like your palette or how you're approaching painting itself, but what are you interested in saying?

And what are you interested in being and doing in your work?

And I grabbed this book of an artist that I saw her work in Berlin, and I started to flip through and go, okay, like, this is my inspiration.

I've always loved painting, but I walked in to this exhibition, and I just love this work.

And they were like, well, pulling it out of me.

What.

What do you like about it?

What specifically?

There's one painting of two women together on a couch, and they were like, well, why don't you just copy that?

You know, like the masters.

I was like, okay, not just physically copy the painting, but reinvent it, put myself in it, put my wife in it, pose ourselves in a similar way, kind of steal the composition.

And then that, as an exercise, was so successful, I realized I just wanted to paint only couples.

You know, women couples.

I repeatedly painted the two of us.

And then I invited others in my community, like, would you pose for me?

Or let me come into your home, take photos of you?

And it's been evolving slowly but steadily and on that same path.

Like, I haven't veered from that path in the past probably 15 years.

And now, like, the success, the acceptances are coming, invitations to exhibitor, because I've honed it and honed it.

How many couples do you think you've painted over the years?

It's not a ton.

Maybe 10.

Yeah, because I do some multiple times.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, in your work, I mean, you do large scale.

It's not.

I mean, you know.

Yeah.

They take a lot of time.

You know, they're big and, you know, you're taking your time and.

Well, that, you know, so of those 10 couples or so, when they've seen the final work, when you're, when you feel like it's time to reveal the piece, you know, if, if what would you say?

Over the years, people have, have said you've captured or you've.

You've revealed about them that maybe they didn't expect or didn't see.

You know, it's the everyday person who might happen to be queer.

Of course, maybe that's not everyday to you or me, you know, to others, but they're not necessarily in the art world.

And so they see themselves represented in art, in, in paint and kind of little bits of their personal life, their ephemera around them, some blanket or a hat they're wearing or some other thing, and they just tune in and go, wow, you've really captured us.

The light within their smile, just kind of the gaze between them or their gaze looking up that hold so much that you can't really describe, and they just are wowed.

And these aren't commissions, These aren't paintings that I'm doing to please making art.

Right.

They are my muses, but they are so prominent and excited to be represented.

Scale.

Well, I mean, as I recall back in the day when you and I were chopping it up, you were telling me, if I remember right, that, you know, you'll.

You'll find.

You'll see couples that speak to you, you know, maybe out in the world, walking around, and you'll approach them and say, hey, can I.

Can I paint you?

Right?

So you're sort of finding your models, so to speak.

Exactly.

So this past year, on my New Year's Eve party, a couple came and I was like, need you two, need you two for paintings.

And I got them in the studio the next day.

Oh, right on.

Yeah.

So that happens.

And then I was at an event last Friday and someone came and really loved my work and said, wait, my daughter's a lesbian and her wife and I think they'd love to pose for you.

And she, like asked them and connected me and we're setting up a schedule now to do it.

What is it about these couples that speak to you?

Can you articulate that?

Do you know what you're looking for?

Is it when you know it, when you see it?

But what is that thing?

What is the it factor for you?

Sometimes the it factor is that one of them is more androgynous.

Or butch is, you know, maybe the old fashioned term so that in paint that person can be identifiable to more people across the spectrum, whether you identify as they, them or trans or butch or you might see yourself in that painting number one.

So I always like maybe one of the figures to be more feminine or at least recognizable as female.

And then the other one, as you're not sure until you get close up, you might see a little bra strap or an earring or, I don't know, something about the nose.

Something that lets you know that they're not a CIS trans.

I mean, assist straight couple.

But then additionally, after painting the immediate people in my circle, I was like, you know what?

I want to bring in somebody of color.

I want to bring somebody of a different ethnicity.

So that's what I'm now looking for a little bit.

Let's mix it up.

I want to represent more of our entire lesbian community.

So when you get them in your studio, what is the process?

So.

So, I mean, are they sitting for you for hours and days on, you know, you know, until you get to the work?

Are you shooting them?

Are you like, you have them come in, you shoot them with your camera and then you're working from photographs.

Like talk a little bit about, you know, that process.

I do work from photographs and I'd rather go where they are, which is in their home or their favorite haunt.

It could be a park, it could be a bar.

And because I want to capture something about their lives, if they come into the studio, it's kind of generic.

And that's not what I'm looking for.

I'm looking for the things that are in their bedroom or their living room or something that's in the background on a shelf.

Or this one couple that I photographed in a restaurant, a restaurant had the most beautiful floral wallpaper.

And the window behind had winter bare trees.

And they were moving to Finland.

And I shot maybe 500 pictures of them that day.

But that particular photo that had that combination, that background and the indoor florals, because I love to paint plants and flowers.

So the fact that they had to emerge from the wall as the wallpaper was really falling, and I don't know, it was a setting that I wouldn't have planned or thought of when I arrived there.

I thought we were going to go in their house and go in their kitchen, like going out.

We're gonna hit the corner bar, our favorite restroom.

Yeah.

So, you know, I guess to the un Uninitiated, someone might look at your work, at least at first.

Blush and, you know, think of it as portraiture, whatever.

But, you know, it's, you know, as somebody who's been aware of your work now for a few years.

And, I mean, on a certain level, for me, it's as if you're painting love.

You're not painting people, you're painting love.

Exactly.

Yes, exactly.

Like, how do you do that?

Because I love paint and I love color, but I also love pretty realistic figures.

I mean, they're not photorealistic, but I'm not changing eyes and noses like Picasso.

You can see the people, but I'm throwing colors in there.

Patterns and lines and things.

But I'm painting that kind of energy that they have between them, that sort of unnamable thing.

So it's not a formula.

You know, I see a lot of people's work that I think is attractive and interesting, and they're able to cure an outbreak.

30 Or 40 a year.

And I look at it and I see illustration more than I see.

Right, right, right, right, right.

Because it's, like, formulaic after a while.

Mine are still not formulaic.

I'm exploring when I'm creating work.

Right.

You know, I take my time.

I take a couple months.

I'm listening to music, I'm layering, I'm sanding it back down.

I'm buying a new tube of paint that might be a new color and figured out where I want to put that.

And then I'm calling them up and going, something in this corner.

Like, what do you have on your dresser right now?

Describe it.

You know, oh, I have a Buddha.

Right.

So it's evaluating the composition, all the things that you can evaluate as a painter.

But I'm also then putting in all of this heart, feeling, sensitivity.

Yeah.

To the work.

So I just wanted to stand on its own as a mini novel.

You know, on the wall.

It's a narrative piece, Right.

Still life.

It's portraiture.

It's landscape all in one package.

Yeah, but the word you use, you use the word energy and.

And.

And.

And that's.

I think that's such a great word, because your work.

And admittedly, I've not been alone in a room with your work.

I mean, I've seen your work primarily online, so shame on me.

But one of these days, I'll get.

To fly out here to the East Coast.

Yeah, but one of these days, I'll get to Baltimore, I promise.

But, you know, but it still dawns on me, as I spent a little bit of time with your work, that it's.

That it exudes an energy field.

And for me, you know, part of that energy field was capturing that kind of love and intimacy, you know, between these human beings.

And it's set, you know, it's set in an environment or, or, you know, what have you that's often, you know, quite beautiful and lush and rich and, and colorful, which I think is probably just symbolic and of, of the love itself.

Right.

It's not really.

It's not about the wallpaper, it's about the love and how that maybe that wallpaper, I don't know, you know, further highlights or illuminates the energy, you know, I don't know.

But yeah, yeah, it's manifesting those little details all around them so that you just get that sense when you look at it.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you work on one more than one work at a time, or is it one at a time?

Sometimes two.

Mostly because the oil paint takes so long to dry.

Yeah.

Right, I'll go over here and start a second one.

But generally it is one that consistently takes my time.

Yeah.

Until it's done.

Have you painted young couples versus older couples?

And what's the difference?

So what's the difference then, like when you're painting or the experience of working with a younger couple versus an older couple?

So last year I collaborated with an artist from the West Coast.

Her name is Lauren and she is a photographer and she's got a project going where she's photographing elder lesbians as a mission to catch their invisible lives.

Yeah.

So she's going up and down the west coast, literally photographing senior women, people who've been together 50 years.

And she reached out to me and said, oh my gosh, I love your work and maybe we could collaborate.

And I thought, how does that work?

I mean, I'm a painter, you're a photographer, we're on different coasts.

I said, send me, you know, your work.

Let me see what, what you have.

And she sent me this body of photographs and immediately one of them just jumped out to be a painting.

It had like patterns and pinks and reds and this couple in their 80s, they're each sitting in a chair and they're reaching across, holding hands.

They're sitting in the Ibiza chair.

In the older couple, I mean, they've got the gaze, right.

They're looking right out at you.

It's a more serene and calm stable feeling of love.

Like you can tell this is a long term love.

This is not the passionate rolling around on the floor like, oh, you've just interrupted in this passionate moment and sort of the way the younger ones and the energy that they.

So I work with her and I did this one large painting and then some of the other photographs, they didn't quite have the material and the things that I need for my oil paints.

So I made them as watercolor types, which are kind of simpler, softer way to present the older couples without painting every single detailed wrinkle.

Yeah, you can tell they're older people.

They become sort of more universal.

Oh, that looks like my two favorite pants.

You know, we're in the closet for 30 years and then I found out, you know, when you walk up on it, or this looks like, you know, these feminist women in history that I've read so much about, they must have looked like that.

So I am trying to capture something that's long term and full of love, but in it different.

I hate to say it, but less passionate.

You know, love changes, morphs over time.

Passion to just steady.

You're my everything.

Yeah.

And.

Yeah, so I recently.

Yeah, no, I mean, it's such a fascinating thing to think about because you're not just talking about, you know, forgive the analogy, but it's.

It's not like you're talking about.

Oh, you know, one couple is like, has the energy of a.

Of a puppy and another couple has the energy of like, you know, that old.

That old dog that, you know, seen it all, done it all, and it's just going to lay there and not be bothered.

But really, what, in this context, you know, kind of what you're getting at is it seems to me that because this is your work is inherently political as well.

Right.

And this idea that, you know, the older couple blazed the trail in so many ways that these young couples, the puppies, can now run along, you know, run along this trail that has been so hard won and hard fought.

And, you know, so because you think about people in love who couldn't.

Couldn't be out and proud for years or decades or whatever, and now, you know, these young.

These young kids can, you know, be out and proud because of that hard work and that dangerous political work that so many before them did.

You know, it's so true.

And I kind of fall in the middle.

I'm in my 50s, and I was in the closet from high school till I graduated from college.

I guess I didn't really have to be in the 80s, but oh, my gosh, it was like Reagan years and AIDS epidemic, my Catholic upbringing.

I just wasn't ready to even face who I was, much less Put a name on it and walk around proudly.

But by the time I did, I was, yeah, crazy proud.

And obviously I've dedicated my career now to be being crazy proud.

But it is an honor to present their stories.

Yeah.

Well, you know, I think you and I, we serve.

Share the.

While back we.

We've sort of bonded over the fact that we're both Gen Xers and, you know, and I think Gen X, you know, you know, like any generation is very sort of idiosyncratic, you know, of the time or what have you.

And, and speaking for myself and I grew up in the Midwest outside Chicago, and I'm remembering, you know, my first one of my dear friends who, you know, came out to me, you know, in my senior year and it was, you know, because when I think about in our class president after high school came out and, you know, and I'm just trying to remember because it's like I would say that at least my group of friends and our class in this very specific time and place of the Midwest in the mid-80s or late 80s, it's like I would have thought of us as being very tolerant people.

Like, we don't care.

But, but.

But it also wasn't blatant, you know, like they.

What nobody was saying, oh, I'm gay or I love, you know, this person or that person, you might have suspected, well, they're feminine or they're butcher, you know, they're kind of mad, you know, the tomboy.

You know, if a girl was, you know, maybe, you know, oh, she's tomboy or whatever.

And then, you know, over time, you know, because of all the incredible hard work done by so many incredible humans laying this groundwork, eventually those people were able to come out and be proud and now are advocates and what have you.

But, but it's just so different now for kids and God bless.

I mean, that's wonderful, you know, but I, I'm just trying to look back and think what it was like for, for me and for us and my friends because of course we want to, you know, we want to give ourselves the benefit of the doubt.

Like, oh, we were, you know, we, we were so tolerant and understanding.

But the reality is people.

People were still closeted in a big way.

You know, really totally closeted.

And I think others were just blind to the differences.

You know, if somebody was on the edges, like you said, you might have said they're a little tomboy or they're a little bit feminine, but you didn't really focus on it.

Which, guess what kept Them in the closet.

Right.

Unless you're opening a door, you might say you're telling or feel like you're telling, like, oh, it's okay.

Whatever they do.

I don't care whatever they do.

But it doesn't open that door for them to actually, like, talk about their feelings and talk about their lives and talk about their experiences and share the things that were completely natural for so called normal, you know, heterosexual people to share on a daily basis.

Yes.

And you start bottling that in and bottling it in, it.

It appears in other ways in your life.

I mean, for years I had to come out every single day, Right.

Literally in an office situation or meeting a new person or a new employee, and they'd be like, oh, well, do you have a boyfriend?

Or where do you live?

Or, you know, like, what do you do on the weekends?

Well, what if you go to drag shows all the time?

Some kind of thing that it's not really, you know, water cooler talk.

Right.

We had to hide all that.

Right.

Unless you're willing.

Unless you're willing.

I'm sorry, Unless you're willing to what?

Divulge everything to every single person.

Right, right, right.

And.

Well, yeah, because it's also like, I mean, as a, you know, straight white male, like, I, I don't feel, I don't divulge.

I mean, I keep everybody on a need to know basis now, you know, it is this, you know, and everybody's different, whatever.

But it's like, doesn't necessarily have to be a political act whether you tell.

Divulge everything or not.

Right.

It's just like, sometimes you're private and sometimes you're more open and it's just like how you're wired or whatever, but.

Right.

But it can come down to things.

Like, my wife and I would go to a restaurant and we get seated every single time by the kitchen door, by the bathroom door.

Oh, wow.

You know why?

Because they see two women together and like, oh, well, you're not on a date or that's not a romantic thing.

Let me, Let me save my two by the front with the view for the, you know, the verminic couple that comes in.

Right.

And it's frustrating as hell.

Yeah, right, right.

When it happens repeatedly.

Yeah.

You know, you really see it where someone like, you probably never thought of that one time.

No, no, no.

And that's.

And that's why, you know, these, these, these moments of communication and storytelling and just inter, you know, talking like, we're talking.

It's so important to shine A light and illuminate.

Because, I mean.

Yeah, I never.

I've never thought of that.

And.

And.

And.

And that's powerful to think that.

Oh, that host or hostess or whatever is gonna, you know, make an assumption of, like, oh, you know, this is, you know, just these two women, and we'll just put them over there because, you know.

Exactly.

Maybe their co workers, family.

Right, right.

This can't be.

This is clearly not a romantic relationship or whatever, because they have the.

You know, they're.

They're.

They're using such conventional paradigms.

But the more minds you change, that everyone should be looked at with open eyes like, we're valid and we are valuable to each other in a way that needs respect.

Even at the grocery store.

Yes.

Because people make assumptions every minute of their lives.

Even in small jobs where they're serving you or some kind of environment.

A co working, where those assumptions, they just start to dig.

Dig and hurt over time.

Yeah.

So the more culture wakes up, okay, I might not know your pronouns.

I might be unsure.

So I'm gonna ask.

Yeah, you know, in the 80s, you would have just said, oh, that was kind of that tomboy friend of so and so.

You would not have said to the tomboy, oh, what are your pronouns?

No, no.

How can I get to know you better?

And how can I support your identity?

But making artwork like this brings it to the forefront, and hopefully this work can hang in prominent places.

All cultures and backgrounds can experience it,.

You know, so I'd like to think again, you know, trying to give myself a benefit of the doubt.

I'd like to think that throughout my life, certainly later in life, if not earlier in life, I just.

I don't think I ever gave a.

What people who.

Who they were, why they were, how they were, what they.

How they identified.

You know, I'd like to think that I've always kind of judged people based on the content of their character, not by who they loved or whatever.

And I'm sure I'm, you know, probably forgetting that era when I was an idiot or whatever and didn't know or whatever.

But.

But it is amazing to me that people seem to care so much about who someone loves or.

Or.

Or what someone calls themselves.

What the.

Why do people give a.

I wish everybody was like you with your attitude, like, why.

Why do people care so much enough that they have to punish us and make rules about what we can and can do?

And can we adopt kids or not?

Can we be married or not?

Can we use this bathroom or not?

Who cares well, you know, and I think of it within the context of my kids.

I mean, you know, I'm in a biracial marriage and family.

You know, my, my kids are adopted, but they're biracial kids.

And I'm trying to raise certainly my son in a world that I didn't experience.

Because, of course, you know, as a straight white male, I didn't have to worry if the cops pulled me over.

I didn't worry at all about getting shot or arrested, you know.

Exactly.

But now you have to open your eyes to the experiences they may have and help them.

And why does anybody care what their skin color is?

Are you kidding me?

You know, just mind boggling?

It is.

But sadly, we're not moving forward in these last five or 10 years.

We're moving backwards.

So things like, you know, art about identity and telling our stories is just as important as ever.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, it is, it is.

Well, that's the other.

I mean, we can get into politics if you want, but I mean, I sort of this idea and I, you know, I could be wrong about this, but I've said it a few times.

I sort of feel like when Obama won, the left sort of said, yep, that's it, we're done.

Like, we won the culture war, you know, first black president, it's all going to get better from here.

And, and they got, and the left got lazy.

You know, we sort of got cocky and got, you know, lazy.

And the, and the right.

Yeah, let's just chew them.

And the right got fake fired up and motivated.

They said, holy, our president's black.

This can never happen again.

And, and, and they started plotting and planning and, you know, here we are, you know, so it's this pendulum backlash that there's nothing stat, nothing to be taken for granted.

Yeah, I can't believe that this is where we are.

And even 10 years ago when I was making these kind of paintings, I thought, what am I even doing?

Who cares?

I mean, yeah, it's nice.

This is my life, but these aren't going to be that important in the long run.

And now with this backlash.

Yeah, they're more important than ever.

And more people who see them who go, oh, my gosh, wow.

I never expected to see myself sort of painted in this way or elevated to this level.

My experience.

Yeah, well, I mean, now I realize that the fact that I'm married to a black woman could come under threat at some point.

Like, it's, like, it's totally conceivable.

It is that the politics could get to such a point that in a.

In a white.

In a white Christian nationalist scenario that.

Yeah.

That you're ostracized or some part of your rights could be taken away.

Yeah.

And, you know, the one thing that I'm sort of kicked myself about, and, you know, maybe.

Maybe it's born of my white privilege, but, you know, I really was wrong, like, horribly wrong in the belief that I just always thought that our country would continue to become more enlightened, more secular, more.

More rational.

And, boy, was I wrong about that.

Right.

I think we all were, all of us on this side.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I don't know, man.

We've got to be vigilant.

We've got to be alert.

Do people talk about your work through a political lens much?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I'm always around the people who are supporting it and pro it.

I've never heard anybody see it and go, ugh, look at that.

That's gross.

Why is anybody painted?

You know, I'm sure somebody somewhere thinks it.

I haven't experienced their response firsthand.

When you talk about your work, do you talk about it through a political lens?

Yes.

And it just in the sense that it's important to be represented, you know, politically, socially, culturally, that we have a voice.

There are not a lot of artists out there giving our voice in this way.

More represented in movies, books, music, things, other art forms.

Photography.

Yes.

Painting, sometimes of gay or queer culture is very like sexual.

The opposite of those things.

I'm trying to be sensitive, gentle, and tell story that anyone can hear, don't have any ears and kind of absorb or reject, but it's going to be absorbed versus the.

Yeah.

Which instantly repels.

Which is good, you know, maybe good reaction, too, when you want people and start a fire.

Well, but, I mean, you're trying to unpack the humanity.

Right?

So I'm trying to bring us together.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I mean, in terms of, like, you know, depicting the energy and the love and the humanity of these couples, you know, you've got to go deep and, you know, it's.

It's, It's.

It's the.

You're so far beyond any common tropes or, Or.

Or easy, you know, easy cliches or metaphors.

Right.

I mean, you're.

You're.

You're really trying to reveal and reveal and the nuances.

You know, 30 years ago, Scott, you and your wife could have been my models.

Because at that time, I was painting interracial straight couples.

Okay.

I was exploring that avenue.

I Was young.

I was right out of college, and I'm a figurative painter.

And I was like, this.

This needs to be talked about.

This needs to be made into beautiful.

But I realized, you know, before long, it wasn't my story to tell on both fronts.

I'm not straight or biracial.

I remember vividly the first interracial couple that I saw.

Vividly.

I remember it.

Do you remember the first gay couple you saw?

Hmm, that's interesting because, you know, men were always a presence.

Gay man heard the word lean or two women, literally.

Until I was in college, I wasn't even sure of that nomenclature.

But I did meet some in person in college.

One of them, she was a deaf sign language, and I was taking sign language, so I was totally inadequate with her.

When I found out she was a lesbian and I met her partner who was deaf, I was like, what?

This is so cool.

Wow.

And I just hung out with them all the time.

Yeah, it was really impactful to meet them up close and then at a distance.

It was like Katie Lang was finally on the COVID of, Right.

Vanity Fair with, shoot, what's her name?

Famous model?

Crawford.

Oh, right.

Sydney Crawford.

Sure.

Yeah, yeah.

Shot by Annie Lee.

I was in the Barnes and Noble, like, holding it in a corner, like, oh, my God, look at this.

So the famous lesbian sworn with a lesbian chic moment in the 90s.

Because Annie's.

Annie's a lesbian, right?

Annie Leibovitz.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

Is she married, do you know?

I do not know.

How long have you been married?

Legally married for 12 years, but together with my partner this coming December, 25 years.

Hey, you and me both.

Channing.

Well, Joe Channing and I celebrated 20 years of marriage last year, but this year, it's official.

We will have been together 27 years.

It's like, you know, to find somebody that puts up with my shit is unbelievable.

I can never let them go.

Because.

Because again, right.

What we realize as we, you know, grow older and certainly and hopefully wiser is that, you know, the.

The.

The hot.

The hot passion and stuff, like, oh, that's great.

And that has its place and whatever, but at the end of the day, like, you're looking for somebody that has got your back when the hits the fan and is going to put up with your, you know, and.

And because, you know, that's rare, you.

Know, to find out shared values and some shared desires in life experiences and things like that.

Mm.

And just Somebody with the character in the stamina, you know, like they're not, you know, like, they don't quit.

They're not going to quit.

You know, they're just, they're too stubborn.

That's, that's, that, that's beautiful.

That's beautiful.

So, all right, so when do you find out about this, this wonderful, exciting grant?

In June.

In June I'll know.

So there's interdisciplinary photography, sculpture 2D.

So essentially they'll pick six winners, $10,000 each, and then the six of us will have an exhibition at the Baltimore Museum of Art.

And one of those, just one, gets an additional $30,000 for a life changing grant.

Awesome, right?

It could be me.

That's incredible.

It could absolutely be.

What is the correct.

I mean, what is that about?

And like, what is the criteria?

Do you know much about the 30K?

Like, that's, it's been around for the prize, has been around for, I don't know, 15 years or more.

It's an anonymous jury.

It's run by the family of the woman who founded this grant, the Baker Artist Award.

I just think they're looking for the best of the best.

It's local, it's regional thing.

Right, right, right.

And helping to change our lives as artists and give us those resources.

Yeah, so I'll know in June.

And at the same time, I just got an application accepted to present my work at an art fair here in June.

It's Baltimore Artscape.

So, you know, I'm hoping it'll all happen, but if it doesn't, it's great to be a finalist.

Well, I mean, look, from what I gather, from what I can tell, the overall trajectory of your career and your pract is up and to the right.

I mean, you know, like, like over, over 30 years, you're like this, you.

Know, it's been a slow and steady climb.

Yeah, but I'm definitely at the top.

I'm in the top, you know, the last mile or whatever, I get to the peak of that flag.

And, well, and, but let's, let's, let's be clear.

I mean, you know, the, the real win here is that you have found your voice.

You know who you are as an artist.

You, you know, you're making the work that you want to make.

I mean, that's the, that's the win.

Everything else is sort of gravy and icing on top of the cake or whatever, you know?

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And now these days, I just want to get in front of the curators who have the Ability to put it into exhibitions so that people can see it.

Right, right.

That's it.

That's it.

Yeah.

No matter how that comes about.

And that's why I entered so many opportunities.

I look at who the curators are and whether or not they're the type of person who might have a relationship with me that's beyond sort of that one call for.

If you could give your younger self some advice, what would it be?

What do you wish you knew then that you know now?

Yes.

I wish I had come out sooner, been okay with myself, and then B.

Painted my own experience sooner rather than looking outwardly.

Right.

Anything physical.

Things, the world, landscapes, portraits, figures.

Relate to me.

Look inward.

I wish I'd looked more inward sooner.

That's a.

That's a powerful.

Like that.

Finding.

Find.

Looking inside to find what you need versus outside on some level.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, I've heard that.

Right.

They say the courage to do it.

Right?

The courage.

Right.

And then it's not as easy as it.

No, no.

Well, because we're all on our own spiritual journeys, right?

Like, you can't.

If you're not ready, you're not ready.

I mean, it's just.

It's.

You have to give yourself grace.

Right?

Like.

Right.

I mean, you know, and that's wonderful advice for the young artists or young listeners out there.

It's like, you know, be patient yourself.

Grace.

But also try to find the courage to take some risks and.

And, you know, go out of your comfort zone and.

And.

And be bold and.

And be true to who you really are because, you know, it's.

The world needs that now more than ever, really.

True truth and authenticity.

Find that community where you can be yourself.

Don't stick around too long in the one that's not supporting you.

Right.

Get rid of the.

Get rid of the.

The.

The mean people.

Like, remember the old bumper sticker, mean people suck?

I remember my daughter.

My daughter, a couple years ago, was going through some, you know, mean girl shit, you know, at school, right?

And, you know, boys or girls are so different, right, because it's like.

And this huge generalization.

People, please, you know, hear me out.

But it's like, you know, the psychological warfare that girls have is just like, next level versus boys who just like go around, around the back, you know, beat the shit out of each other, and then they're like, done.

Then they hug it out and then it's like, you know, but.

But the psychological warfare of.

Of.

Of the girls is just like a whole nother thing.

And, And I remember Talking to my daughter, saying I, I told her I would say, well, you know, when I was growing up, there was a bumper sticker that said mean people suck.

And you have to remember that.

And I went and I found the sticker, like I bought it, I found, and I gave her a bunch of these stickers that said mean people suck.

And I said, put these on your notebooks, put these, you know, in your locker and just remember that it's not you, it's them, you know, and them, basically.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm going through it now with our 12 year old daughter.

Yeah.

How's she doing, by the way?

I had such a.

It was so nice to meet her a couple years ago.

How, how's she doing?

How are things?

She's doing great.

We just moved her to a new school called Arts and Ideas.

It's a Sudbury school, which means there's no instruction.

Kids can do whatever they want to do all day.

Wow.

They can go outside, they can read a book, they can like make costumes, they can play guitar, play video games.

There's no instruction.

It's jazz.

It's total improv.

Yes, it's improv for her life and she's loving every minute of it.

Oh, wow.

It's amazing to think about that, what that kind of freedom does for a kid's spirit, you know, and their intellect.

That's exactly why we moved here like a month ago.

Those mean girls were digging in and the academics were difficult and this opportunity presented itself.

Yeah.

We thought, why not try it?

Well, and by the way, I mean, God, I mean, got, you know, God bless us to be able to have those, those options and those opportunities, you know, and, you know, you're, we're so, you know, your daughter's so lucky, you know, and you're so lucky to be able to, to offer this and do this right.

Because when you and I were coming up, right, we just had to go to the school in our neighborhood, you know, for good, bad and, and worse.

Right.

And.

Right.

Well, mine was the Catholics school, but.

Yeah, but I mean, you talk about.

Conforming like you had to conform, right?

Like my God, in every way.

In every way.

Have you made peace with your Catholicism?

I don't know.

I guess.

I mean, mine wasn't so bad.

I wasn't like, you know, whipped by the teachers, ruler or, or shamed in some ways that other people have experienced.

It was just restrictive.

Yeah.

It just took me a long time to figure out who I was because of it.

Because it put all these walls around me, right Right.

What do you.

Okay, so making peace with your Catholicism is one thing, but, you know, having a spiritual life and a relationship to the universe is a very personal thing.

You know, have you.

Do you think you found peace around that aspect of your.

Of your being?

Yeah, you know, I'm always looking for what's outside of ourselves spiritually.

You know, how can we communicate with those who were here before our ancestors, our angels, whoever they are, our.

Our own higher selves.

I'm always kind of trying to be open to those connections and those guidances, and I put all my faith in those and then in just being a good person and doing the right thing and hoping it comes back to me.

Yeah, for sure.

Well, you know, I mean, honestly, I mean, my view, my experience, most artists that I've known are truth seekers and that.

That, you know.

You know, I don't know that that's.

A good way to put it.

Right.

Truth seekers.

And that plays out in all aspects of life.

And, you know, for myself, you know, it's not about me today, it's about you.

But, but, but having grown up in a.

We weren't Catholic.

We were pretty, you know, kind of fundamentalist Christian.

And I lost my religion a long time ago, but I feel closer to God than ever.

And when I say God, I'm not talking about the Judeo Christian, I'm just talking about the universe.

I mean, like, I have total.

I'm so grateful because I feel like I have more peace than so many of the, you know, Christians that I know, who I grew up with, who I know are wonderful people.

But, you know, because part of what we're looking for is peace, you know, and that's another thing I see in your work.

It's just a peacefulness, a peace, you know.

Do you think that.

Do you think that comes from the fact that.

That the people you're painting art piece or because you're.

You're at peace as an artist?

It's me combination.

Yeah, I think it's me.

I think it's my own, you know, self portrait.

It's my own mission of what I want to paint.

I'm sure I'm choosing some people who have that calmness, you know, and that's why I'm choosing them.

But it's definitely me that I'm putting in there.

So to what extent are these port.

Are your.

Are your work self portraits?

Every one of them?

On some level?

Yeah, I think so.

I actually think most artists, really good artists are painting a self portrait every time, every work, they Make.

Yeah, that's an amazing idea.

I hadn't thought about that.

In terms of your work, that's incredible.

Right?

It makes total sense.

I mean, I get it now, but.

Right, yeah.

I mean, look at, I don't know, Amy Sherrill, another Baltimore artist who just had this groundbreaking exhibition.

I see all of her work as self portraits, too.

I mean, they're portraits of her community, the black community in Baltimore and beyond, but they really all have her in them.

And every really strong artist, when you dissect their work, that's what it comes down to.

Right, right.

So you were back in the studio last night.

You just finished a piece or about to finish a piece.

Where will the piece.

What's next for that piece?

Is it going in a show or is it.

Yes, it's going to Mexico City the minute it's done for a Pride exhibition at a major cultural institution during the FIFA games and the Pride Parade.

Oh, great.

It'll be a big, lively Mexico City, and hopefully lots of visitors will see it in this exhibition.

Love that.

Love that.

Have you shown with this gallery before or with this.

With this curator?

Before, yes.

It's a curator relationship I've been cultivating for two years, and I've shown there with him, like, four times now.

And we meet weekly on an online residency where artists from Mexico and across the US all log in and we share our studio practices and ask for advice and talk about projects.

Oh, that's super.

That's super.

That's great that you're able to.

Yeah, it's really great.

Have that.

Have that kind of thought partnership, if you will.

Right?

Yeah.

Like, one artist is in Belize.

There's two or three in Mexico, and then a couple in the LA area, one in Montana, and meet every week.

Do you find.

Do you guys find that many of you are sort of struggling with similar things and you're able to help each other kind of solve similar challenges, or do you find that.

No, everybody's dealing with very idiosyncratic, very unique kinds of challenges.

Well, the group itself comes together over the queer umbrella, so we all identify as queer artists, but there's sculptor, there's somebody who works in Fiverr.

There's somebody who's an abstract painter, but still somehow in the group, one or more people will have, like, a piece of advice.

Or, oh, I used to use this when I did textiles 10 years ago.

I used to use this one clue product.

And it's like, oh, that's great.

That's a great help.

Or, hey, I've always Been a painter, but on this particular project, I want to do something 3D and then 3D and go.

Oh, about that.

It's just great.

I mean, we're all probably interdisciplinary in some ways.

Yeah.

Would you say.

Would you say you're all kind of established artists, sort of mid career?

Kind of so called mid career?

Definitely a mixture.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nice.

That's great.

That's great.

Well, Joan Cox, you know, you're one of my favorite.

What's that?

I'll give a plug.

It's called the bureau of queer Art and they have publications, magazines, downloadable, and of course, all of their website and social channels.

Very cool.

Very cool.

Well, thank you for that.

We'll be sure to, you know, put that in the.

In the show notes and what have you.

They have a. I'm guessing they have a website and all that good stuff, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Joan Cox, you know, you're one of my favorite people.

I hope.

I hope you know that you are.

And I'm so grateful to have you in our little world and our little community and you are just such a wonderful human and grateful to know you.

Thank you for taking time out of your busy, exciting schedule to come back on the show and, you know, best of luck and lots of love for the future immediate mid and long term.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

You make me feel really special.

I appreciate you.

Thank you.

And not really.

Thank you.

Thank you for that.

Thank you for that.

And please give my regards to your wife and to your daughter who I had the privilege of meeting a couple years ago.

Thank you.

Excellent.

Excellent.

All right, my friend, you have a beautiful day.

You too.

Be well.

Thanks for listening to the not real Art podcast.

Please make sure to like this episode, write a review and share with your friends on social.

Also, remember to subscribe so you get all of our new episodes.

Not rel Art is produced by Crew west studios in Los Angeles.

Our theme music was created by Ricky Peugeot and Desi Delauro from the band parlor social.

Not real Art is created by.

We edit podcasts and hosted by captivate.

Thanks again for listening to not real Art.

We'll be back soon with another inspiring episode celebrating creative culture and the artists who make it.