In this episode of The Last 10%, host Dallas Burnett sits down with Curtis Bateman, Franklin Covey's Senior Vice President of International, to discuss transformational leadership and change management. Curtis, an expert with over 25 years in the training industry, shares his journey from his early career to his pivotal role at Franklin Covey. They delve into insights from Curtis's books 'Change: How to Turn Uncertainty into Opportunity' and 'Who Rocked the Boat,' exploring the critical role of people in successful change initiatives. Curtis highlights the importance of engaging employees, storytelling, and the four zones of change—Status Quo, Disruption, Adoption, and Innovation. Additionally, they touch upon personal mission refinement, resilience, and the rejuvenating power of hobbies such as playing the cello. Tune in for valuable advice on navigating change, leading with empathy, and fostering a culture of innovation.

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Hey everybody.

We're talking to Curtis Bateman today.

What an amazing guy.

He has over 25 years in the training industry as Franklin Covey, senior

vice president of international.

He's an internationally recognized presenter, content developer, change

consultant, business leader, and coach.

Curtis has authored insightful books, including.

Change how to turn uncertainty into opportunity and who rocked the boat.

You don't want to miss this incredible conversation.

Welcome to the last 10 percent your host, Dallas Burnett into incredible

conversations that will inspire you to finish well finish strong.

Listen, as guests share their journeys and valuable advice on living in the last 10%.

If you are a leader, a coach, a business owner, or someone looking to

level up, you are in the right place.

Remember, you can give 90 percent effort and make it a long way, but it's

finding out how to unlock the last 10%.

makes all the difference in your life, your relationships, and your work.

Now here's Dallas.

Welcome.

Welcome.

Welcome.

I am Dallas Burnett sitting in my 1905 Koch Brothers Barber chair in

Thrive Studios, but more importantly, today, we have a fantastic guest.

He is a dynamic leader, a consultant, and he's really known for his

ability to take challenges and turn them into opportunities.

He's here to share his wisdom with us today.

Welcome to the show, Curtis.

Dallas.

Thanks.

It's great to be here.

Absolutely, man.

Absolutely . This has been a conversation I've been looking forward to for

a long time, because I am a huge fan of Franklin Covey and all the

work and the content you put out.

And we were talking before the show.

And one of my stories is, coming out of school,

I just thought I was like, I don't like reading.

I don't want to absorb any more information.

What I found out after reading was seven habits of highly effective people.

I found out actually I was a reader and I love this stuff.

And it was, Stephen Covey that really helped shape me early

in my leadership perspective.

And, man, so to be able to be talking with you today is fantastic.

tell, the listeners a little bit about your story and how you got connected

to

Franklin Covey and what you're doing now?

Oh, wow.

it it

came out.

I was a youngster.

Hadn't even made it into the workforce yet.

And I have the original copy on the shelf there.

It's got yellow highlights notes all over it.

same thing.

I'm What is this stuff?

but it took me a while to actually make it to Franklin Covey.

I've only been with the company for 10 years.

I got to spend some time in technology and then in the learning and development space

doing change and had my own business.

And I was just super fortunate that there was a moment in time where

Franklin Covey and my business intersected and they brought us in

house and it's been fabulous ever since.

That's amazing.

So you guys actually intersected in, and, we're able to work together

in, a very professional way.

and so you came on board when they, did they find you or did you find them and

just have those conversations earlier?

How did that.

we knew for years, our goal was to build a business that Franklin

Covey would want to acquire.

We knew a Franklin Covey, we had connections and there, there just came

this moment in time where we just popped open the conversation and it started

and they were ready and we were ready and it was, we were super excited to

, Dallas Burnett: that is incredible insight just, you know, that you built

a company that they would want to look at, well done on that, especially

to see it pan out and play out.

So that's really good stuff.

So tell us

a little bit about what you're doing now at Franklin Cove.

Cause you've had a, you've had an amazing career even after you were acquired.

Now you're in Franklin Cove.

We tell us a little bit about what you're doing.

Yeah.

When we

joined Franklin Covey, my hope was we would.

We would get right into the content and what ended up happening was

the company looked at my work experience, running my own business.

I'd lived in Europe before and they said, we have a need right now.

We want you to move to the UK and start running our operations there.

So it actually took a little bit of a detour away from the content.

And we went to Europe for a number of years and started running the UK and

Ireland operation that expanded to add Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and then

recently France, all part of a direct office there that's grown and is thriving.

And so as that leadership journey has.

Taken off and expanded then in the middle of all that they said, Hey, let's go

back and work on the change content.

I said, what am I free time?

What are you thinking here?

That's awesome.

That's so cool.

That's a great story.

I'm so happy to hear things are going so well and your markets in Europe

are expanding everything like that.

And obviously with everything we're going on.

That's everything That's going on right now, whether it's, political

in global scene and all the wars and crisis or AI and technology

and just unbelievable change.

So that's another reason I was so excited to have this conversation today.

We've had guests on in the past six months that talked a lot about

technology and AI and the changes that we're going to see coming down with.

That and robotics.

And then, we, obviously everybody's tuned in to what's going on

globally and politically.

So I love to have you on to, to have some time today to speak about change and how

do we process all this stuff as leaders.

Coaches, business owners.

How do we, is there some tools that we can put in our tool

belt to help us manage change?

So let's jump into your, book a little bit.

Cause I'd love to start unpacking, some of that.

Tell us a little bit about the premise of your book and maybe what inspired

you at the time to, to write it.

Yeah.

So early, earlier in my career, when I had my own business, I had the

chance to work with Spencer Johnson, the guy that wrote who moved my

cheese, which is a book on change.

And I spent

10 years working very intimately with him.

And it was such a great tutoring experience.

So we can come back to that.

But what happened in answer to your question is there was a moment in time

where we realized that book was targeted at helping individuals at the moment

they realize they're stuck with the

Hmm.

Hmm.

Organizations and leaders were approaching us and

saying, we need a lot more than that.

We need to understand what's going on.

We need to understand how to lead our people.

We need our people to have tools and skills.

And in all of that, there was this common thread emerging for us.

And the thread was people.

So many change management systems focus on process or workflow or

the system or the technology.

that's always been so fascinating to me because our biggest cost and our largest

asset in an organization is our people.

And we parachute in a process to tell them what to do.

And I'm thinking, wait a minute.

Let's unleash potential.

And so our focus was.

Let's figure out how to create a change methodology that gives people

the driver seat and unleashes them to make their best contribution rather

than have it all happen to them.

And so that was our starting premise and around which we then started

to build this change methodology that we talk about in the book.

Wow.

I'll you hit on so many things there.

I love your framing of people being our biggest cost and biggest opportunity

and Organizations and yet just pushing everybody in the process really it's

almost it's taking an aspirin for a heart attack It's not really solving

the underlying issue because would change is all this stuff under the

surface the other thing is I love how you're setting people up to unleash, you

said, unleash their best contribution.

And I think that's a fantastic way of describing that.

And so tell us a little bit about the book and about, how you would

advise leaders as they approach some of these changes, whether that's

external or internal in terms of the organization, how you would advise

them on what changes and then how to manage through that uncertainty.

Thank you.

Wow, that's a big question.

let's get into it.

So the book is structured, With the first chapter being an illustrated parable,

I thought I can't work with Spencer Johnson, the king of parables for 10

years and not get a story into this.

Exactly.

So we put in a story and funny enough, we loved it so much that we.

We pulled that out and made it its own book, which is the Who Rocked

the Boat that you referenced.

And that's just, that's a storybook illustrated parable to give everybody

a really approachable way to start thinking about the change and the

predictable pattern of change.

So that's good for everybody, individuals, leaders, kids, you name it.

It's a great resource to get people into this mindset of What's going

on when we experience change.

And then from there, we spend a couple of chapters thinking about what's the mindset

going on between individuals and leaders.

And we move into this predictable pattern called the change model, and we explore

each of the stages in the change model.

There's four zones and we explore the zone of status quo, the zone

of disruption, the zone of adoption and the zone of innovation.

And we talk about what's happening in this zone.

What are people thinking?

What are they feeling?

What are they doing?

And if I'm a leader, What can I be doing to help people make

progress in that specific zone?

One of the things that happens with change is people feel like

it's being imposed on them, right?

People aren't watching, but I'm using my hands to push, right?

They feel like it's being forced on them and human nature says, if you're

pushing on me, I'm pushing back.

exactly.

And so what we want to do is start to shift that mindset

that says, instead of just putting up a wall and resistance, how do

we start to reframe that and say, What are the choices I have here?

What can I do?

And if I take those steps, then what can that help activate and how can that

move me through the change process?

It's a really interesting journey and it's really fun to watch people start

to discover what choices they have.

In the journey because they so often start with the paradigm of,

I don't have any choices here.

This is just happening.

Yes that's fascinating.

That's a really interesting way to look at approaching change.

I've actually never heard anybody describe it quite like that, and it's interesting

that you start with what choice.

Can I make, because what you're essentially doing is allowing the

team members that are experiencing the change to feel like they still

haven't lost their autonomy, like they still have the autonomy to move.

And, whether that is, it is, moving out or moving, into the change or

whatever, but they, it's their choice.

And so I think that gives them.

I think that gives you a greater chance, which obviously I'm sure you talk about

a lot about in the book, gives you a greater chance of engaging with them and

bringing them in, because they have, they feel like they have that autonomy still.

That's right.

And maybe it's small decisions to start with.

Maybe it is the decision you referenced.

We talked about that in the parable.

Some people get excited and race ahead.

Something new.

Others.

Others say, Wow, I've seen this movie before.

I'm just gonna sit and watch.

I'll bet it goes away after

a while

and some are really actively campaigning against it.

And others are saying this changes for me.

but in all of that, we help them identify what are the choices you can make.

And as they realized, little choices can lead to bigger choices.

Just what you said starts to happen.

Engagement goes up.

Alignment with the change increases accountability to the outcomes changes.

It's this really virtuous cycle as we age and work with the hearts and minds of the

people rather than try and do it to them.

I think that's such A unique approach.

And I love how you frame that up and I love how you broke it in the four

zones, because I think that each one of those zones are probably going to

have their own challenges and their own opportunities as you move through them.

And the choices that people have as you move through them will morph and

change as you go through it as well.

I think it's a really great approach and I love how you are.

Hearts in mind first, and then the process follows because it's if you

start there, then you can move a lot.

It's just like adding oil to an engine.

It just, everything moves a lot more, with less friction,

Has that been your experience?

do you have an example?

you've worked with a lot of companies.

have you seen this play out?

give us an example of.

maybe something you've seen, you don't have to obviously use the real names,

but, give us an example of something you've experienced along those lines.

Yeah.

Let me give you some macro level analysis and then we can move into some specifics.

So you talk about the oil in the engine and Engine without oil has a

tremendous amount of friction in it.

And if you look at people's lived experience with change, the data

says IBM and Harvard, 75 percent of change initiatives fail to

reach their intended outcome.

My data says that we've captured over the years, 88 percent of people

believe the change will lead to something worse for themselves.

Oh, wow.

72

percent believe that it will lead to something worse for the organization.

So this historical approach of we'll give you process and we'll

tell you to work harder is a high friction approach to change.

And it causes things to overheat.

And there's, that's where you get the IBM and the Harvard data that

says, wow, this is a train wreck.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so instead of starting with process, when you

start with people and say, we've hired smart, capable, well skilled

people that understand our business.

If we can engage them, they're going to figure out the process.

They're going to figure out the

workflow.

Let's not try and tell them that.

Let's try and figure out how to get them to want to be part of this.

And the minute you do that, trust goes up.

When trust goes up, cost goes down and speed goes up, right?

Another Franklin Covey area of thought.

But how amazing is that?

When the cost will go down and the speed will go up.

That's exactly what we're looking for We're looking to put oil into the engine

decrease friction and then make it happen.

So have we seen that with organizations?

Absolutely.

One time I had a company call me it was a medical company hospital and they said

man We've been working on this change with these nurses for 18 months and it's

not working So for 18 months, they'd been just pounding this drum of new process,

new workflow, work harder, do what we say.

And the minute you start to spin that around and say, let's engage your

people and what's their voice and what insights and why isn't it working?

There's never a silver bullet with change.

But my point of view is what if the next change is 20 percent

better or 40 percent better?

valuable is that to a

leader?

because humans are humans, right?

There's always going to be some amount of challenge, but,

and and that's where we see it start to turn is where we back up now, that's not

to say process Dallas isn't important.

You got to have it right.

You got to know what you're doing,

100%.

but you gotta get your people, their hearts and minds engaged.

And when you do that, it makes all the difference.

it reminds me, I was in an organization, and it was

a technical service organization.

They were having some issues with safety.

And, there was a big push to have people climbing these ladders

and entering these spaces that were not safe, in a safe manner.

But these are 25 year old guys that are like, it's easier for me to do it this

way and not use proper ladder safety and other things we can do because

it takes too long or, fill in the blank with all the things that I had

tried for a long time and not gotten.

Really adoption on that.

And so one of the coolest things I've witnessed was we said, this is the

initiative, but here's what we want to do when I have a competition and we want you

to bring your best ideas on how we can.

Let's just assume that they're not going to do that.

How do we use this less?

How can we do it less?

How can we use ladders less?

How can we, and just be as you can be as creative as you want.

There's no budget.

You just, you whatever you want and brought it and showed at this leadership

summit, all these different ideas.

And it was.

Incredible.

Number one, the ideas that they brought, and this is without initiatives from the

organization, the company didn't say, this is what we're going to do, it said, you

tell us just like what you were saying with the hospital, you tell us what needs

to be done to get this result because this result, we agree to all of us is better.

And the ideas were so profound that not only did they.

Increased safety dramatically, but the people that were a part of the

ideas saw their ideas adopted actually changed the way that they were climbing

ladders in addition to the ideas they had to get the final results.

And so what ended up happening was safety skyrocketed.

And at the same time.

Productivity went up 30 percent because of the innovations that came out.

And these are guys on the, just, these are technicians that's going out in the

field and they lowered the productivity of the increased productivity.

So it's exactly what you said.

The cost dramatically decreased.

And the speed dramatically went up.

And, so I saw that firsthand.

That's a great example.

Very

and what's fun about this

is it really makes it clear that frontline workers have great contribution to make

what hubris to think that a leader has the answers to something three or four layers

removed from them in the organization.

We worked with a company that makes potato chips.

And they had a process where there was this wire that sliced

the chips and when the wire would break it would shut down the line.

This was years ago.

And two frontline employees, when we started to activate some of this change

mindset, came up with a pulley system that just slowly moved the wire through.

And so they could go.

A full shift without the wire breaking.

Whereas historically they had the wire break pretty consistently and it

would lose productivity, but when you activate the people closest to the work,

you get all this amazing innovation.

Yes.

I love that.

I think that's fantastic.

And I think that's great.

in terms of the book, what area do you see in your four zones

that you talk about in your book?

What, which one of those zones do you feel like it's hardest for leaders to.

Engage or get right.

The most, is there one area that stands out that's for challenges for leaders?

Which one would that be in your opinion?

that's a tricky question to answer.

So let me frame it this way.

The middle two zones.

Organizations are forced to deal with because they just happen.

You announce a change, there's disruption and you're trying to figure

out how to implement the change.

So those happen.

The outer two zones are where leaders can get reckless and

not spend any time on them.

So the zone of status quo, most people think, wow, we have

made it through that change.

It's time to catch our breath.

And that's known where if leaders will engage their people in thinking what could

be next, what training, what development, what skill building could we be doing?

But that's tough to do because people are thinking, ah, man, I sure want a break

from that last big change initiative.

Yeah.

and the other zone at the other end, right?

The other bookend zone is the zone of innovation.

A lot of times what happens is organizations will start to get

through a change and they'll start to feel like, Oh, we've got this.

And they plant the flag of victory.

it falls far short of what they could accomplish because they've

unleashed all this creativity.

And instead of coming back to pursue it and say, what else could that lead to?

What else have we learned?

What else have we heard from those impacted by the change

that could make it even better?

Instead of exploring that.

They plant the flag of victory and they really essentially get back to a level of

outcome that matches where they started.

So they've paid this price for change,

but they haven't harvest the full potential of the change.

So it's opportunity that's lost.

the bookend zones are where I would say leaders organically

naturally don't pay attention.

Yeah.

they have an opportunity to drop the ball in those two zones.

because they have the, they have to do maybe some things that either are

counterintuitive or that they just are.

There's some inertia, that, or overconfidence.

There's just a lot of things that can get in the way on those two zones.

I like that.

I like that.

and I do think that when you come through a change initiative, it is

natural to say, okay, let's take a breath and let's just maintain.

And it's like the, what is it?

Lou Holtz is you're either growing or you're dying, So let's, let's keep going.

So I think that's really good.

That's why we say in the fourth

zone,

One of the, one of the skills we encourage leaders to do is to figure

out how to celebrate the wins and the successes because celebration

is also a way to rejuvenate and recharge versus taking a break.

Yes.

I love that.

That's, this is a great routine.

That's a great routine.

If you can incorporate that and it reminds you of why you did what you did.

So it's taking a second, look back and then, that's really

good and recover a little bit.

I do like that.

Let's talk about celebration a little bit as it relates to recovery, because we,

had, Talked a little bit before the show and one of the seven habits, actually, I

think this last one is sharpen the saw.

And I think that what you're talking about when you get to that fourth stone, when

you said celebrate, It part of that is a bit of recovery, you know what I mean?

Even if it's holistically how do leaders in your opinion?

ensure because we've had guests and we've talked some on burnout and different

things like that And so how do leaders how have you seen leaders sharpen the saw?

And while they're striving to, move through these

organizational change, initiatives.

Yeah, that's a good question.

And so important, right?

We live in a world where.

People are talking about balance and people are talking about burnout.

Even going through change, right?

Some people talk about resilience is the answer for change, but resilience,

the research shows is like a muscle.

It fatigues,

right?

So relying on resilience as your go to leadership approach for change is

not a very good approach because the, everybody fatigues with resilience.

So first of all, you need to set up the change, right?

As a leader, you want to engage in storytelling that says, let me

tell you why we are where we are.

And what is all of the input that tells me we need to make a change

so that you're sharing a reason and a purpose for making a change.

And then your storytelling describes a new and future state where

that change makes things better.

And it makes it better, not because the journey from where you are to where you

want to be is easy, but it tells you that we have a vision of where we want

to go so that we're willing to work through the challenges of the change.

So one of the essentials here is to have a compelling vision so that people, their

hearts and their minds are engaged by it.

And when you start to falter, you reconnect with that

vision and the storytelling.

And that helps people find the energy and the resolve and the

connection to why we're doing it.

Then as you get to the fourth zone, You're actually instead of the leaders

being the storytellers, you're asking your people to be the storytellers.

Tell us about our successes.

Tell us about where we had a failure or a setback and how we overcame it.

Tell us about an unexpected victory.

That wasn't even in our thinking when we started and you're unleashing them as

storytellers and storytelling motivates.

It inspires, it captures hearts and minds.

And again, we're human.

So that's not to say this is a fatigueless idea, but it's saying this

is how you help people stay connected and find the wherewithal to keep

going on these change initiatives.

I think that is a great point.

And I think to your point, it is, the story is energized in a way

that is so relatable, and it's so moving and it taps into that emotion.

I went and toured, years ago, an Amazon distribution facility.

And when I walked in, there's this little short.

lady that comes up and she's got her hard hat on and her safety vest.

And she's just come off the floor.

She's working.

And they said, Hey, we've got these visitors.

We don't have our normal tour guide available to take these people around.

This was not a facility that got tours a lot.

I don't think it was just like, Hey, we showed up, we had a

connection and got in to see it.

And so she said, I'll take you around.

Come on.

And so she gives us the tour.

So we go up on this and it's, the way they do it is, Really different

than anything I've ever seen.

It looks like little ants everywhere and they, stuff things.

And it's just not, to me, it looked completely chaotic,

but Amazon has it down.

she goes in and she starts telling a story and this is just a,

this is not the plant manager.

This is not the vice president.

this is five or six layers down into this organization.

And.

I just know this because you go into companies all the time and they

have vision statements on the wall, mission statements on the wall,

values on the wall, and you look around, everybody looks miserable.

And you're like, what in the world?

this young lady, she takes us up on the mezzanine.

We can see the whole place.

This is 19 football fields under his massive facility.

And she says, let me tell you a story about this place.

She said one time there was a kid that was, dying of cancer.

And the only thing the child had asked for Christmas was.

A purple ukulele and that, and that's it.

And so this was December.

Now, this was a few years ago when there was the massive ice storm

that came across the Northeast and just shut everything down.

So a day before Christmas, the transport and everything that was coming out of

the Northeast got shut down and they had to call, they emailed the person

said your delivery has been delayed.

the mother is in the hospital with the child gets the email, very frantic.

Was like calls amazon.

Is there anything you can do?

My child is here at this hospital they're, you know taking chemo and

the only thing they're going to be here over christmas The only thing

they've asked for is a purple ukulele.

Well Service organization the service person says hey, let me

get online and check this out So they go and look in their system.

They said There's one purple ukulele left in our that we can get to you by

the time and it just happens to be At that distribution center that we were

at which was in the town next door to where that child was in the hospital

And so they called the plant manager the only night of the year that the plant

is shut down Is like Christmas Eve.

So Christmas Eve, Christmas day.

So they call the plant manager.

He goes out with his vice president by themselves and this massive foot thing,

and goes and searches through these boxes for hours on Christmas morning, finds the

purple ukulele and hand delivers it to the hospital, to the child in the hospital.

Now, this lady is sharing this like she delivered.

That purple ukulele.

And we're all standing there and it's loud and things moving and you

could have heard a pin drop if it wasn't like we were zoned into her

conversation and it didn't matter what was on the walls of that organization.

It didn't matter because you knew exactly what they stood for

exactly why they did what they did.

and you felt the energy coming from her.

And it was simply because she shared a story.

And I just thought, man, that's when you said that about the storytelling

and pushing it down and getting your people, if you're a leader, not just

you telling the story, but taking that next step to push it down here,

how powerful it is to drive change.

change and action and movement and motivation.

Yeah, and that starts to address that 88 percent

of people think the change will lead to something worse, right?

You start to craft a different narrative in the organization and

people think the last change we did this and it was remarkable.

happens is over time you start to move from change awareness.

To change skill, to change competency into organizational change competency.

and the way you do that is you embed this storytelling, these

success stories, or even these struggle stories into the culture.

And that's why this is a people business because those stories,

they live on in folklore.

That's right.

Oh yes, absolutely.

Absolutely.

that story is the purple ukulele is not going away for a long time.

That's amazing.

Yeah, it's amazing.

And I think too, to your point, when you embed something like

that idea of, and I've never.

I've never really thought about like this, but when you just described

change management in, in embedding the change management attitude, not

that you have a plan for change, but that you have changed the belief

of the people in the organization about how they approach change.

I think I'd love to hear your opinion, but I think that is a

legit competitive advantage in the

marketplace.

I just think that's.

A

without doubt that becomes an organization's ability to

be nimble, to shift, to adjust, because your people are going to respond.

You turn it over to them and How quickly the changes can happen and how

effectively and the creativity it can unleash versus a top down approach.

We come in and say, all right, here's the checklist.

We're doing this and people like, okay, here we go again.

yeah, and the thing about the execution level of that

is just going to be worlds apart.

And yeah, so let me ask you this, because this is really important.

So as you look at change.

And the way that leaders and team members view uncertainty, what advice

would you give to a leader who's approaching a change initiative and

has a team that, and we've talked a little bit about in storytelling and

you want them to tell stories, but if they're approaching a team that.

Is really pushing back against the change.

Is there one thing that you would say and give advice to a leader of

either an organization or a team that they should really be mindful of when

they approach change with a team?

Maybe this got history.

That's not good.

how would you advise that leader?

So where we are in the change process matters.

So let me plant a stake and say, this is in the zone of disruption right

after a change has been announced.

Just people have context around where I'm answering this question.

First of all, there's an important point to realize.

The minute a change is announced.

It's also a change for the leader, the leaders hearing about it and thinking,

okay, I have to lead this change.

And this change is also impacting me.

So the leader has to realize I'm standing in two different roles right now.

One is as an individual, this change means something to me.

And as a leader, the organization needs me to take my team through it.

And a lot of times those two roles get muddled and they make it

hard for a leader to bring their best self to the leader piece.

Because they're worried about the individual piece.

So as a leader, it's important to not dismiss either one of those,

but to recognize you need to just have those two stand side by side

rather than be all muddled together.

That's an important thing.

So let's just put our hat on as the leader saying, okay, I'm leading my team.

The last couple of changes haven't gone and I know I'm going to get some pushback.

That's a pretty common scenario.

yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

if the senior leadership has done a really nice

job positioning it, I would call the positioning a case for change the story.

What's changing?

Why is it changing?

Where are we going?

And what are we asking the organization to move from?

I would engage my team and say, let's read the organization's case for change,

and let's talk through what our team's version of that case for change might be.

if we were to do our part in this change, what would that look

like and create our own story?

And what are we asking our team to move from and to?

Now, none of that's made the history go away.

But rather than tell them what to do, I'm inviting them to help craft the narrative.

What are we going to do as a team?

Yes.

inevitably,

there, there are moments where that leader is going to be asked questions about the

change and they'll say, I don't know.

And I think this is, if I had to narrow it down to one thing to

answer your question, this is it.

Leaders often don't want to talk about the change because they don't

want to get asked the questions they don't know the answers to.

yes,

And my point of view is,

get over that.

You don't need to have all the answers.

If you have all the answers, that's weird.

You don't need a team.

Yeah.

so

my point is go with a little bit of vulnerability and say,

listen, I've thought about this.

There are five questions you're going to ask.

I don't know the answers to.

Let me just tell you what they are.

I'm just going to own that, but we're going to figure it out, right?

Rather than hide from it, confront it.

And one of the tools we use as we list all of these things that could

happen with the change and need to happen, we say, Let's sort them.

Let's sort them into hurdles.

Those are things this team has the ability to leap over.

Let's sort them into quicksand.

We are going to get stuck and we're going to need some resource, but

let's figure out which ones those are.

And then what are the brick walls?

No matter what we do, we're just going to smash our face on the wall.

And as a leader, It's my job to go take those and figure out where to get

the help to deal with the brick walls What's curious is as you go through

that sorting it's usually a large percentage that are in the hurdles Okay,

we can deal with 60 of these great.

Let's go get busy on those and we've You know, better because we're doing

something we're contributing, and then we figure out the quicksand.

All right, which other teams do we need to reach out to?

Okay, you got that.

You've got that.

And then as a leader, I have this very finite list of clear the path.

Go get help.

Go get resource.

but that process I've described to engage them in their own story of the change.

What's our part of it?

What are we moving from and to own what you don't know?

And don't worry about that.

So let's go sort what we can work on.

I think that's so true.

And I was reading a study not too long ago, and it said that leaders that.

Are not perfect and don't present as perfect, which is very intuitive.

I think this makes sense, but it's saying how much more trust that they

build and how much more likable they are, even if they say all the right

things and do all the right things, people still don't trust them until

because they're too perfect, And, and so it, but that's really hard because as

a leader, you do feel a pressure to be like you said, I need to have the answer.

They're asking me these questions.

I should be the one and depending on your personality type, it may be

more or less, but, At the end of the day, I think your advice is spot on.

I love the hurdles, quicksand and brick wall analogies.

I think that is spot on.

we did a show recently where I was talking about when we, give your team the gift

of planning, that for Christmas, if you want, if you're a leader, you Give them

the gift of planning because that's clarity for them, but it's not planning

an outcome because we so often will want to say we want to hit this target.

We want to have this revenue.

We want to have these sales numbers.

We'll have this.

That's great.

I'm not saying don't set goals and have expectations, but the planning is.

In the response.

And what you described is let's look at all the things that stand in,

in, in between what the expectation is, the goal, the KPI, the OKR,

everything That's standing between, and then let's plan our response.

Let's look, some things are going to be hurdles when we can jump over them.

And let's talk about that.

And that is a real gift because sometimes depending on.

The experience level of your team members or their skill level.

They may not see it as a hurdle and may see it as a brick wall, but

by going through that opportunity and planning their response in

these different scenarios, you're just making them more fluid.

you're, they're able to move without thinking.

And, which is a good thing.

And, whether it's golf, tennis or work.

mean,

think how special those team meetings are where.

You're coaching them.

You're helping them see differently.

You're giving them permission to take ownership and you're also

giving them permission to identify which ones we need help on.

That's so engaging, right?

Rather than just go get it done.

Yeah.

so much.

Yeah.

No, I think that's fantastic.

I want to get into something a little bit more fun because I

see in the background over your right shoulder there's a

musical instrument, the cello.

Are you a celloist?

I am.

let me start.

Give a different answer.

I played the cello for years and then I stopped when I went to university.

I played for 15 years.

Oh, wow.

and a couple of years ago, I

thought, this is ridiculous.

That is such a fun thing.

So I pulled it out, sent it into a repairman.

They completely took it apart, rebuilt it, made sure it was in good health.

And then I started relearning and spending time every.

every week playing.

You mentioned Habit 7 earlier, Sharpen the Soft.

For me, I'm in front of a computer screen, or traveling, or teaching,

and this is just me time.

Just time to go do something creative, and it's been great to reconnect

and to spend time playing the cello.

Yeah, I love it.

So awesome.

My daughters play the fiddle.

And and so I actually, funny enough, I did not take for 15

years, but I took cello lessons back when, when I was a kid as well.

And honestly, given all the different instruments, I tell

you, the cello is awesome.

Is on point.

I love it.

so nice.

So nice.

And I relate to you as well.

I play guitar a lot as well.

And, it is some great block it out.

Just close, you don't have to think about anything.

You just put it all down and just disappear for an hour.

It's totally rejuvenating, right?

Energy,

enthusiasm.

It's just, it's so good.

So habit seven, sharpen the saw.

sharpen the saw and tune the strings.

Let's go, we got to do it.

So that's great.

I'm so glad you reconnected to that.

That's really great.

And, so it also, I think you're very mission minded.

It comes through in the fact that you started your company early on and you

said, Hey, we're going to design this company to partner with Franklin cubby.

and.

You did it.

And so I think that's a really great thing for leaders as we are approaching

the, the beginning of the 2025, what is something that you would encourage leaders

on how they may could develop a similar habit or maybe what's worked with you

in refining your personal mission?

Ooh, I love the last little phrase.

They're refining your personal mission.

So when I read seven habits 100 years ago, I started drafting a personal mission

and it has matured as I have matured.

and giving yourself permission to allow your current experience to refine that.

So I revisit my mission really thoroughly once a year and say, what would I adjust?

And then in the pursuit of that mission, The one piece of advice I

would have for people, with New Year's, we always get this enthusiasm and

then that tends to diminish as reality

life.

happens.

Yeah.

myself permission for it not to be a straight line and to

accept this zigzag, I've had professional experiences where in the heat of

the moment, I thought, What is this?

And in hindsight, I've looked back on it and drawn upon it for

success in a future opportunity.

so don't always just judge something that doesn't go to plan as, Oh man, I'm just,

what can you learn from it and how can it contribute to something in the future

that maybe you would never have been ready for if you hadn't had that experience.

And for me, That's what my course has felt like.

but always inside these broader parameters of, who I want to be as a person, the

kind of contributor I want to be at work, the kind of dad I want to be.

I've never let it get outside those bounds, but I've given it permission

to wander and learn from it rather than to feel like, Oh, that didn't work.

I failed.

What did I learn and how did it help me become better at what I'm doing next?

I love it.

you either win or learn, there, there's no loss.

And so I think that's a great perspective.

And I do think that you, that's a principled approach to living.

and I think that's a very, it's an approach that allows for flexibility,

like you said, within, inside these, principles, but, Hey, look, like we said

earlier, we can't control all outcomes.

And so to narrow in on something and say, I'm not successful unless this

exact thing, it's just tough, but you would lose out on a lot of experience

that you, that's made you who you are.

So I think that's great advice.

I do the idea of refining the personal mission.

I have the same experience do I think, and it's probably somewhere after

reading the seven habits, I would say, I've had it for a long time.

but definitely have a mission statement that has.

That has evolved, over the course of different experiences and

things, but it's still very true to, what we're running after.

And I think that's really cool, man.

This has been such a great conversation.

The couple things that we go, but when we close out a session,

I, I, like to ask two things.

Number one, where can people find out more information about you?

And your book, if they want to read more about it.

And, and then the second question is who would you like

to see or hear on the last 10%?

And I liked your answer in the show notes.

There's a, I can't wait for that.

So yeah, those are the two questions.

Yeah.

Thank

you.

So I'm with Franklin Covey.

So if you go to franklincovey.

com and you go into our speaker section, you'll find me there with bio

information about the change content.

That's a really easy way to find us.

I'm also on LinkedIn.

I continue to write.

And, share, experiences there that continue to extend

what I'm doing on change.

So that's linkedin.

com forward slash Curtis Bateman.

And I'd love to have people connect there and follow me as I continue to

post and share more and more information.

Of course, the books, they're on Amazon and all your other favorite retailers.

you can go look for change, how to turn uncertainty into opportunity

and who rocked the boat, the parable.

So if you're looking for a picture book at work, that's the one who rocked the boat.

Okay.

Okay.

we will put all those links in to the show notes.

So if you're driving right now, don't worry.

We will have Curtis all his contact information, Franklin Covey, LinkedIn, and

Amazon for his books in the show notes.

You can check that out after the show, after you finish listening to the show.

Now, Curtis, the question I have for you is who would you

like to hear on the last 10%?

So I'm, for those listening, I'm reading this book

called never split the difference.

It's been out for a while, but man, it's amazing.

I would love for Chris Voss to come on and talk to you.

He is, wow.

It's just so inspiring.

it's changing so much about how I even think about some of my work.

I love it.

Oh, that book is definitely probably for me top five.

in business books that I've read.

if, seven habits is in there, then that one is as well, because

I agree with you, Chris Voss and the never split the different.

I can't tell you how many times I recommend that book to people just

to read it and experience like.

It's just, there's so many principles in there that you read and you're

like, this cannot be, this is how do how do you want me to do that?

How do you get, you can't even, I can't even tell it like how

many times I have a conversation.

I'm like, does this even work?

And then you do it.

And you're like, Oh my gosh, this is real.

This is unbelievable.

it's simple yet counterintuitive.

And it's just amazing.

Yeah, he's great.

I would love to have Chris Voss on the show.

I'll have to, I'll have to see if we can reach out to him.

I, I've never reached out to Chris Voss, before to be on the show,

but he would be, man, that would make for a heck of an episode.

And if I do, I'll let you know.

So

You do

that.

Curtis, thank you so much for being on the show today.

This has been just a most amazing conversation.

I know our listeners have just been soaking it up.

You have dropped some.

Large, a large, valuable chunk of wisdom on them today.

And I just appreciate your time.