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How Immigrants Shape NWA: Nathan Bogart Unpacks Myths, Law, and Stories
Episode 338 • 1st December 2025 • I Am Northwest Arkansas® • Randy Wilburn
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About the Show:

"When people get here, as flawed as we are, they can find some degree of stability and hope for their future that they just don’t have at home."

       – Nathan Bogart, Attorney

In this episode of I Am Northwest Arkansas®, host Randy Wilburn sits down with Nathan Bogart, a local immigration attorney at Bogart, Small + Duell. From serving a Mormon mission in Spain to building his own law practice in Northwest Arkansas, Nathan shares the deeply personal stories and challenges faced by immigrants pursuing the American dream.

Discover how immigrant communities shape the culture and growth of our region while navigating a legal system that's often misunderstood. Nathan and Randy discuss asylum, deportation defense, and immigration's local impact on businesses and society—revealing the real struggles behind the headlines. Whether you're curious about the process or want to understand what's at stake for these families, this episode offers timely insight and compassion about immigration law in the Ozarks.

Key Takeaways:

  • Immigration Stories Matter: Every immigrant’s journey is unique. The decisions and outcomes can impact generations.
  • The Reality of Asylum: Contrary to common myths, the process is tough and most applicants do not win, even with strong cases.
  • Northwest Arkansas’s Role: Growing communities like ours depend on immigrant labor for industries like agriculture, construction, and retail.
  • Misconceptions Debunked: There isn’t always a “line” for immigrants to get in. Policies are outdated and pathways can be nearly impossible.
  • Economic Power: Immigrants contribute as workers and customers—and often become entrepreneurs, starting businesses at high rates.
  • Patience and Education: Changing perspectives starts with listening, understanding family immigration stories, and challenging myths with facts. 

All this and more on this episode of the I Am Northwest Arkansas® podcast.

Important Links and Mentions on the Show*

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*Note: some of the resources mentioned may be affiliate links. This means we get paid a commission (at no extra cost to you) if you use that link to make a purchase.

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Mentioned in this episode:

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Looking for your next career move in Northwest Arkansas? Check out ONBoardNWA.com, the hyper-local job board designed to connect job seekers with leading employers in our community. From entry-level positions to executive roles, ONBoardNWA is your one-stop shop for job opportunities right here in NWA. Take the next step in your career and visit ONBoardNWA.com today.

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Looking to discover the best local businesses in Northwest Arkansas? 🌟 From cozy cafes to essential services, FindItNWA.com has got you covered. Connect with your local community with just one click and explore something great. Visit finditnwa.com today! #LocalBusiness #CommunitySupport"

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Transcripts

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It's time for another episode of I Am Northwest

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Arkansas, the podcast covering the intersection of

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business, culture, entrepreneurship, and life in

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general here in the Ozarks. Whether you are considering a

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move to this area or trying to learn more about the place you call

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home, or we've got something special for you. Here's

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our host, Randy Wilber. Hey,

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folks, and welcome to I Am Northwest Arkansas, the podcast that

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explores the intersection of business, culture,

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entrepreneurship, and life right here in the Ozarks. I'm your

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host, Randy Wilburn, and today's conversation couldn't be more

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timely or more important. We're joined by Nathan Bogart, an

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immigration attorney who isn't just practicing law, but he's telling

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the real human stories behind one of the most misunderstood

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parts of American life. Nathan helps us unpack the

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complexities of the immigration system, challenge common myths,

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and understand how immigrants shape and are shaped by the

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Northwest Arkansas community. If you've ever wondered what the process

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really looks like or what's at stake, this is an episode you

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won't want to miss. Nathan, welcome to the I Am Northwest Arkansas

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podcast. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me on,

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Randy. Oh, man, it is my pleasure. This has been a long time

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coming. I will give a shout out. You were actually referred to us

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by a listener of the podcast that said, you need to have

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Nathan Bogart on the podcast and your

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agent, your law firm is right around the corner from my house on the

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east side of Fayetteville, Bogart, small and dual.

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And I said, I know some of your former colleagues

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and Zoe Naylor. And I just said, man, I do need to have you on

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the podcast. So finally, finally we're here and I'm really excited

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to learn more about you. I would love for you just to,

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from an initial perspective, just share a little bit about your

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background and your superhero origin story with our audience.

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Yeah, so I guess just to kind of, you know, as. As far as a

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basic biography, I'm. I'm originally from Mobile, Alabama.

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That's where I was born. And I didn't really live. I haven't lived there in

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a really long time. I lived there through about middle school.

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I moved up to Kansas City where I attended high school and

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graduated from a high school in suburban Kansas

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City. And then I went to Madrid,

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Spain, where I served a Mormon mission. And I

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lived there for a couple years, came back home, married, I

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guess, for lack of a better phrase, my high school sweetheart.

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And we moved a few months later down here in Northwest

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Arkansas. And I went to the University of Arkansas, graduated from there in

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2007, decided to go into law.

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So I attended the University of Arkansas School of Law, where I graduated in

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2010 and started working here locally at

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a firm, Matthews Campbell Rhodes McCurran Thompson, in

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downtown Rogers. After being there for a couple years, we

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moved back up to Kansas City for a couple years, where my wife is from.

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Started my own firm, learned a lot of lessons from having made a lot of

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mistakes, trying to start my own business, and then

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ended up going down to Dallas, where I worked for a Dallas area immigration firm

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for a couple years. And then they moved me back to try and open an

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office for them, and I ended up going back out on my

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own. Yeah, I love that. So you decided to hang your own shingle,

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so that's pretty cool. What drew you into

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immigration law? Right? I mean, there's a lot of different. You could go corporate.

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I mean, just normal business law. I mean, there's, you know, patent

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lawyers. I mean, there's all kinds of law practices. But I'm

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curious to know what really drew you to immigration law and

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how did your practice specifically here in Northwest Arkansas

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develop? A lot of it was just working with immigrant communities. When

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I was living in Spain, we worked a lot with

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immigrant communities in Spain, specifically from Latin

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America, especially Venezuela,

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Colombia, and Ecuador. And so I just kind of got

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to work with people from those places and really fell in love with it.

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And obviously, that wasn't something I could do with

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my entire life. And so I came home and

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because I acquired some Spanish language skills, every job

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I had after that, I was typically having to speak Spanish. I

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continued working with people from Latin America all through

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college and law school. And so by the time I got to

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law school, I knew that this was a realistic possibility for me. And

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something that not only would be interesting and

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something that I could continue doing that I'd already kind of fallen in love

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with, but also something that I could do to support

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my family and. And help out other people at the same time.

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And so that. That's kind of how I got exposed to

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working with immigrants initially. Just kind of fell in love with it and decided to

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find a career where I could continue to do that. Yeah, I

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love that. And, you know, you're not the first person that I've had on that

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that's done a Mormon mission. And. And the impact of their experience

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on that mission has somewhat directed

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a portion of their. The outcome of the things that they do in life, which

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I always find to be interesting and So I had, I had another friend that

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would spend some time in Portugal, and another friend. I mean,

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they've gone all over the world. And it's always interesting, the outcomes of

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those experiences. Yeah, I mean, it's really supposed to be kind of a

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religious experience, but honestly, you know, for me,

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just having a chance at that really

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young age where you're typically a little bit more of a

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selfish individual, thinking of yourself and your future and where

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you want to go, taking a step out of that and going into a place

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where you're not comfortable at all, and maybe you don't even speak the language,

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and you're forced to think about and serve other

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people who may very well be very different from you. It's

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extremely humbling, and it really causes a lot of

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inner reflection, and it just changes

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perspectives. And so, I mean, there's a lot of things that are analogous to it,

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you know, military service, working the Peace Corps, things of that nature.

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But, yeah, you know, for me, it was definitely foundational.

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Yeah. And I would say the maturation process is just kind of like,

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you know, over the top, I would imagine. And, you know, in the period

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of time that you spend on your mission. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it

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definitely is. Just, you're just kind of thrown out in these places.

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You know, I, I, I was in a fairly stable, safe

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place, but there's people who go to, you know, all over Earth.

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Yeah, yeah. Aren't necessarily very safe. So I've been to

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Madrid a number of times, and you got you a pretty

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decent draw there, as far as that's concerned. Madrid is one of

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my favorite European cities. You've described your work as

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being deeply personal. Is there maybe a story that you

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can share? Without names, of course, to protect the innocent. That really

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impacted you and kind of reaffirms why you do the

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work that you do on a regular basis. Yeah, I mean, it's hard

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to think of really one, one story. Right. To be honest with you.

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But, you know, I, I've worked with countless

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individuals. I would say, to keep it general.

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Handling asylum matters specifically are probably the things that

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are most personal to me, and in

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a lot of ways is because we fail a lot. You know, people kind of

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live under this impression that if you show up at the border and you say

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the magic words of I'm afraid to go back to X country, then

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you know, you're going to be allowed in and you're going to be allowed to

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stay in the United States, and that's somehow some type of workaround or gimmick,

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and it's really not that way. The vast majority of people, especially

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who are processing their asylum applications before an immigration court,

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tend to lose their asylum applications even when

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they're represented by an attorney, and unfortunately, even when they

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have a very strong case. And it can be really

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frustrating work. We've won a lot of cases that I

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question why we were even representing the individual. And we've lost a lot of cases

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that I would consider to be some of the strongest cases that I've ever personally

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been involved in. But when you have a

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solid case and you know that that person's

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life is in jeopardy if they were to go back home to

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the country they came from, I feel like that's always extremely

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impactful. It's always a strong reminder as to, you know, why we

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do what we do. You can see that especially as some of these

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individuals. I've been doing this for 15 years, and you see some of these individuals

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come, and now they have families and, you

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know, spouses and children here in the United States. And you can just start to

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kind of see the generational impact that decision to come here

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and that positive result that they got of their case is going

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to have across multiple generations. Yeah. And I think

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sometimes, I think as Americans, we don't really get the privilege

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of seeing all of the behind the scenes that goes into specifically, like,

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asylum and people having to wait at a weigh station, if you

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will, until they can actually come here into the country. And I know we

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had the folks on from Canopy NWA a while back,

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and the stories that they shared about waiting in a

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refugee camp for years before their number came up

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was just simply amazing. It's like, wow, you know, like, I met one

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young lady who had spent the better part of her young life

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in a refugee camp just waiting for the opportunity to come to this United

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States. And so I think it shouldn't be lost on people, the

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sacrifice and the toll that it takes on an

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individual who desires freedom and an experience

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that, honestly, you know, the United States represents for

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a lot of people. And yes, we are a flawed country, just like a lot

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of other countries. But there is a level of hope that people see

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in our country that I don't think we should lose sight of.

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No, not at all. And even as imperfect society

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as we are, you know, we represent a lot of individuals who come from places

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that essentially failed states where they become complete and

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total autocracies, where there aren't really, at the end of the day,

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any basic freedoms. And so, you know, to

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live and to expect people to live in those types of societies and not want

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to leave is probably not a very mature way of looking

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at how the world works. But when people get here, as flawed as we are,

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they can find some degree of stability and some

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degree, like you said, of hope for their future that they just don't have at

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home. Yeah, no, absolutely. And, you know, once you've

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heard one story, you start to hear a lot of them and they all kind

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of mirror each other in terms of experiences. You just hope, I think,

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at the end of the day that the outcome is positive. Right. And I think

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that's. That's the situation that sometimes we're faced with, you know,

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hearing the outcomes that, like you said earlier, sometimes you think

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things that are slam dunks, aren't slam dunks and don't happen the way that you

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would hope that they would. So I'm curious to know, you talked

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a little bit about that. There are a lot of misconceptions people have

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about immigrants and the legal process they face.

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Can you maybe walk us through a baseline understanding

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of immigration, especially as it pertains here to the United States and

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into your practice? Yeah. So, I mean, probably the

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biggest misconception that people have and that I hear a lot when I'm

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watching the news is just this question of why don't people do

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things the right way or why don't people get in line? And the reality

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of the situation is that there isn't a line for people to get into,

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at least not in most cases. So for the vast majority of people who

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want to come to the United States, they have to have either a family member

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or an employer who's willing to sponsor them. And

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even then, the process can be absolutely fraught,

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depending on the identity of the family member, depending on the type of work

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they're wanting to come over and do, it can take years for them

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to even get into the United States. And that's if you're just talking

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about being able to come here permanently. If you're wanting to come here

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temporarily, it can be even worse. There's this whole Alphabet soup

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of visas that you have to kind of narrowly tailor your

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circumstances to fit. And if, if you don't qualify, you're not going to

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be allowed to come in. And so when you look at the United States and

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its massive need to continue to grow

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and for labor, particularly, you

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know, labor in certain sectors, and then you look at the immigrants who are

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willing to come in and do that labor and also

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provide that growth, there's no real way to connect those two

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needs. So if you're living in

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rural Mexico and you can't support your family

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and you don't have any opportunities where you're currently living, but

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there is a great opportunity to make money in the United States and come here

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and work, there's really no way for you to get into the United States

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legally. It just doesn't exist. That pathway is almost completely

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non existent. And likewise, if you're running, you know, a

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construction company or some type of agricultural

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business and you want a worker who's willing to do that work for

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less than maybe your average US Citizen would be willing to do it for,

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or maybe US Citizens aren't willing to do it at all, then

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there's really not a pathway for you to get a foreign worker to come into

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the United States and do that job for you. And so it's created kind of

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this whole, like, black market labor economy that has been existing

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now for decades. And Congress hasn't really been able to get

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together and agree on a way to

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eliminate those barriers. Yeah, I was reading

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somewhere the other day where it says we have it. The biggest

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issue with everything that we're dealing with today, like, I mean, and I'm speaking

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of 2025 and just the state of our affairs as

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it pertains to immigration is that we have been kicking the can

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down the street as it pertains to immigration reform for

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more than 25 years, which spans multiple

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administrations, both Democratic and Republican.

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So, you know, it should be no surprise to us that we're kind of in

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the situation that we're in. And while we may not like

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the results or the efforts that are being taken to try

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to, you know, fix immigration, I don't know that it is being

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fixed right now. I just think that people should be fully aware that

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this is something that we have been punting on for a. Long time,

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even longer than I think a lot of people realize. I mean, if you look

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at the history of the United States, for roughly the first hundred years the country

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existed, we didn't have any immigration laws at all. Right. It

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was literally the Wild West. And so, you know, they

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started trying to pass immigration laws roughly into the 1880s.

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And one of the very first ones was called the Chinese Exclusion Act. It was

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literally, you know, you can't come here if you're Chinese. And that triggered a

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whole wave of laws for several decades that were just based on

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reasons we didn't want people to come here. So we're just creating these classes of

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People who weren't welcome, but it wasn't really creating

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pathways for people to come into the United States. And then after several

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decades of doing that, we finally got around to passing, really, the first

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comprehensive immigration law, the Immigration and Nationality act of

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1952. And we've amended that a few times, but

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we've not really updated it. So we're still working

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under a law that was passed in 1952 that's based

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largely on the creation of barriers to people being able to come into the

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United States. And so the really big problem is that no

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one's ever really looked and asked the question,

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what kind of immigration system would benefit the United States? What kind

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of immigration system would benefit the companies and the families and the

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individuals and communities that depend on immigrants, and what kind of immigration

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system would benefit immigrants? No one's ever asked those questions, not

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once. It's just been, who do we not want here? And then

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we can't really get Congress together, like you said,

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especially not in the last 25 years, to sit down and

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think about a way to resolve the issues that

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we have because of that messed up system that we've been dealing with

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now for, you know, virtually since the 1880s. Yeah,

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no, you're absolutely right. And I mean, I think just for perspective's sake, I

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always tell people that, you know, we need to figure out how we can do

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better at that because we lead. We lead on so many other

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matters. But this is an area that we have have typically struggled

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with. And so, you know, I mean, there's always going to be room for

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improvement and room for growth. And I think this is one of those

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where both sides of the aisle can figure out a way to come

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together and not point fingers, but to come up with

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solutions that not only benefit those that are already within

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the confines of the United States, but those that. That still want to come here.

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Because in spite of everything that's happening, and I know we're putting a certain

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message out right now to the world that, hey, you're not welcome here.

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There are still a lot of people that want to come to the United States.

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And yes, there are. You know, that dream is real.

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And, you know, it says at the foot of the Statue of Liberty,

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give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses. And, you know, we

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experienced that through Ellis island and we've experienced that

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through. What's that? There's a bridge, there's a. The Darien

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Gap there in Venezuela as people try to

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traverse, which is probably land and mountainous. I

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mean, it's almost you know, they defy death to get here

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to the United States. So clearly, clearly, people are trying,

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are still trying to get to the United States and see this as a land

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of opportunity. I guess the real question is how, as

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Americans, do we reconcile that and figure out a way

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to welcome them with open arms, if we can? So I'd love for you,

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Nathan, to maybe walk us through a typical asylum

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or deportation defense case. What the does that look like for you?

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And I'm assuming you're dealing with these all the time right now.

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Yeah. So my main area of focus, our firm

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does all aspects of immigration law. We've also grown over

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the years to include, you know, basic criminal defense practice and

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family law practice and things of that nature. But my role at the firm,

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along with two other attorneys, is we focus only on, you know,

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kind of deportation and immigration litigation issues. And

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so the vast majority of my caseload is

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asylum claims. And sort of how the typical

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process works is, you know, someone's come to the United

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States, most of them have actually appeared at a port of

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entry along the border, and they've told a border patrol

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officer, you know, hey, I can't go back to

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whatever country I'm from. Someone there wants to, you

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know, cause me harm. They want to kill me, they want to persecute me, you

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know, whatever. And so they're placed into what we call removal

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proceedings. And that's just an opportunity for

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them to present an asylum application to the immigration court. And if it's

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denied, then they will be removed or deported from the United States. And if it's

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approved and they get to remain in the United States, eventually become lawful permanent residents,

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or get a green card, and then later on down the road as well, have

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an opportunity for citizenship. So the first thing that is really

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challenging for a lot of immigrants is that the law requires them to

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apply for asylum within one year of arriving in the United States.

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And as simple as that sounds, it's incredibly difficult because

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most people don't get here with the gobs of money

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that. That it requires to find a place to live and

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settle themselves. They don't necessarily have a job lined up already.

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They don't necessarily have the funds to hire an attorney. There's

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governmental issues as well. So ICE might tell them, okay, we're

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going to place you into immigration court, and you're going to have a hearing on

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X day. But then they may never get around to filing the paperwork.

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So the question is, where do they even file their asylum application

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at that point? And so that can take up most of their first year. So

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a lot of people, if I'm lucky, are coming to see me just

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shortly before they hit one year in the United States. But

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unfortunately, a lot of people don't even get around to being able to visit

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with an attorney until a year has passed.

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So if we can even get there, then obviously, the first thing is we fill

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out an application, we file it with the immigration court, and then we

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go through a series of hearings. There's usually at least one,

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sometimes two or three status hearings. We call them master calendar

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hearings. And at those hearings, you're just kind of making sure that the case is

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ready for trial, kind of like you would in any other type of civil or

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criminal litigation. And then you will be

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assigned a trial date, what we call an individual calendar hearing. And you go and

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you present all of your evidence and all of your best arguments. You have your

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witnesses testify. That's usually going to be the applicants themselves.

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But we may also hire expert witnesses from,

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you know, a psychological background who has evaluated our client.

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We may hire academics who are experts on the country of origin.

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You may end up hiring other legal experts. If

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it's a very complicated case, you may even get multiple attorneys involved, and

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you just present the best case you can and hope that you win.

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But the real challenge that a lot of asylum applicants face at the end of

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the day is that the immigration courts are really just executive

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administrative courts. So they're not part of the judicial branch, they're

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part of the executive branch. And immigration judges, as

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we call them, are really just attorneys who were employed by the

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Department of Justice to serve in a. In an adjudicatory

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capacity. So they are

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attorney adjudicators. And so that leads itself

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to the potential for manipulation from higher up

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because they want to keep their jobs. Right. And it also

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leads to questions about, you know, whether the system

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is truly unbiased or not, because the administration

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may have specific interpretations of the law that they want to

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push. And that's regardless of the administration. Democratic, Republican, you

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know, whatever. It just lends itself to political

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tinkering, I guess you could. You could say. And

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so, you know, that's a nice. Way to put it. Yeah, you go through.

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You go through life. And I mean, I have cases now that I would

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have never. That we can win, that I never would have expected

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to win in 2012. In cases in 2012 that

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we would have expected to be a slam dunk, that, you know, there's no chance

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we're going to be successful in that case today. Just because there's also

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kind of an ebb and flow at the executive level as

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to what constitutes an approvable asylum claim or not. The president,

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especially through the Department of Justice, through the Attorney General, has

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extremely wide latitude to interpret

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immigration laws and essentially encourage

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immigration judges to apply that interpretation the way they want them

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to. Would you say that's how it. Recently we were able

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to see a huge number of South Africaners come

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here to the United States. That's one example might maybe of

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that, you know, because, I mean, again, it's like, well, if you say a group

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or a party is being persecuted or whatever, then you make a case that,

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okay, well, we want to alleviate that and give them

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asylum here in our country. Yes, there can definitely be

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some situations like that that arise. And not to

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poo poo too much on the South African experience, the

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Afrikaner experience, either. I've actually been able to represent a few

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Afrikaners over the course of my career, and those have

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always been very difficult but very interesting

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cases that are not always successful by any

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stretch of the imagination. But there are some things happening in

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South Africa that are. Maybe it's not

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necessarily as black and white as we. As we think

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in South Africa. Yeah. But, yes, the administration can certainly

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enter in and. And say, okay, we want to focus on this

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group. Now, you also have situations where there's kind of a,

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like, waves of asylum seekers. So

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there's always some other country in crisis. Right.

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And so over the course of my career, when I first started, a lot

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of people applying for asylum were from what we call Northern Triangle of Central

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America, so El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras. And it's

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not that that has slowed down, but they've largely been replaced later on by

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people from Venezuela and now a lot of people from Nicaragua

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and Afghanistan. And so one of the things

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that's interesting, there is also kind of regardless of the political party in power,

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regardless of the administration in power, as those waves

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grow larger, the pushback from the federal government to limit

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the number of people who are winning asylum cases almost always kicks in

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at some point. And so when you're representing kind of that initial wave of

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asylum seekers from a country, you tend to be much more

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successful when you're representing them because it's new,

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and the courts aren't overwhelmed with the same story every single

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day, every single trial. And then, you know, a new

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group comes in, and they end up kind of taking the spotlight and end up

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having higher approval rates. But the government always, you know, the empire always

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strikes back. Right. So, so you, you always

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get that pushback at some point where the feds figure out, okay, well, we've seen

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enough people, you know, come from this region of the world. Maybe we approach

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these cases in, in a different way. And so, you know, in the

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early 2000s, we're going to win a Nicaraguan asylum claim probably without even

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question. And now in 2025, you're going to have to

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fight. Yeah, it's difficult. What role does northwest

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Arkansas play in the broader immigration landscape from

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your perspective? Well, northwest Arkansas is very typical of any

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fast growing metropolitan area. You're going to see a lot of immigrants come

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here, and you're going to see the area continue

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to diversify. And as it continues to do

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so, it's going to continue to depend on that diversity

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for its growth and continue to depend on immigrant

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labor specifically. And so I think northwest

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Arkansas is very typical in the American immigration experience.

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The south specifically went through a massive growth

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of immigration starting in the 1990s

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and kind of continuing through today. And Arkansas was one of those southern

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states that saw a lot of growth, specifically here in northwest

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Arkansas, but Georgia and the Carolinas saw it, too. Tennessee,

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really all over. Immigrants, like everybody else, are going to be attracted to

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areas that are growing and that have opportunities.

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Because at the end of the day, one of the things I really don't want

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to get lost. I know we're talking a lot about economic impact,

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but immigrants, at the end of the day, just like everybody else, we're

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all just human beings. We have the same wants and needs, the same goals.

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And so they're going to be attracted to the same thing that any other human

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beings are attracted to. And so I'd

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imagine that two people like us who weren't born in northwest Arkansas but

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came here were attracted for some of the very same reasons. A lot of our

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immigrant neighbors were attracted to northwest Arkansas for

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absolutely. A thriving, safe and secure environment where a lot

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of things are happening and new things are being created every day.

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Who wouldn't want to be in a situation like that? Right? I mean, it's.

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It's kind of rhetorical, but it's like, yeah, that's what everybody wants. So

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it really is. At the end of the day, it's absolutely whatever what everybody

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wants. And so you'll probably continue to see growth in the immigrant

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communities here in northwest Arkansas, just like you're going to continue to see growth

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in the overall northwest Arkansas community. Yeah, absolutely. Well,

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you mentioned industry and business, but how do. And this is kind

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of a question for Those that are in the local business community. How do local

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businesses and industries depend on immigrant

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labor, especially here in northwest Arkansas? And of course, I could, you know,

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I could think of a number of different mainline businesses that

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have a large and outsized number of

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immigrant labor. But I mean, just in general, how do

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the local businesses here in northwest Arkansas depend on

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immigrant labor? Well, two primary ways. Right. One is just direct

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labor. So, like you mentioned, a lot of industries in northwest Arkansas, just like they

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do throughout the country, depend heavily on immigrant labor. So you

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have large percentages of laborers in the construction industry, the

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agricultural industries, the retail industries, you know, that depend on

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immigrant labor. So a large number of immigrants work in those industries.

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The other thing obviously, as well is that immigrants are

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customers for a lot of small and large businesses in

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northwest Arkansas. They do have a pretty

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large spending power, and they use that

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just like everyone else does. And so if you want

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to have a serious conversation about removing immigrants from the equation,

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companies are going to be harmed both because they're going to lose

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workers and because they're going to lose customers. And at the end of the day,

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a business really can't run if it doesn't have people running it and if it

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doesn't have people purchasing its product or service. Yeah,

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I mean, I can think of a number of things where I even look around

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in my neighborhood and in certain jobs, not that other people

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don't want these jobs, but I don't see anybody else doing these jobs. Right.

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I mean, roofers, you know, you see a roof, they can tear down

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a roof of a ranch in a day and be done with it. And I

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barely see anyone other than primarily immigrants

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working on. On roof teams and, you know, doing that kind of work.

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And then when you think about the strawberries that you eat or, you

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know, you think about the home health aides that are out there, and not

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that Americans that are already here don't necessarily want those jobs, but

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I don't see anybody running to do the jobs. And that's the

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challenge. So I think sometimes we lose sight

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of all of the benefits that we're experiencing from

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all of this immigrant talent, and I will call it talent that we do

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have in this country that do a lot of things that the average

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American doesn't want to do. And let's just be really clear

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about that. And that that's not the dirty little secret, that's the

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facts. But people don't like to look at those facts and then,

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you know, wonder why certain things go high in price and

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why things become unavailable because we don't have the resources

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or the manpower to take care of those things. And I just think

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we need to. I think it's important for people to really look at

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the whole picture and as they say, count the cost.

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Yeah, absolutely. And I love that. I love that word talent. Right. For a couple

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of reasons. One, you know, a lot of times we like to refer to a

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lot of the industries that immigrants work in as unskilled labor. If

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you've ever done any type of job in

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any of those industries, worked at a restaurant, in a kitchen, in

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construction and agriculture, that is very skilled labor.

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It is not something that is done easily. But also talent, because

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just as any other group, when immigrants move into a metro area like northwest

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Arkansas, they are bringing their talents with them. And we all

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benefit from those talents every single day in

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ways that are obvious, but also probably in ways that are not obvious. I mean,

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immigrants open businesses at a much higher rate

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than native born US Citizens. Right. Regardless

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of ethnicity. That's something that's remained fairly

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consistent. Immigrants are entrepreneurs and

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the economy benefits from that greatly. And so do we every time

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we patronize an immigrant run business.

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I've eaten at more of my fair share of, you know,

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immigrant run restaurants and stores and,

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and I know a lot of other people in northwest Arkansas do as well.

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Yeah, no, absolutely. There's some amazing empanada spots

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here in northwest Arkansas, but I'm not, I can't name one because then I'll get

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in trouble. So there are multiple of them. Just take my word

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for it. So, and that's just one delicacy. I'm being kind of

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funny, but this is a serious question and I hope that people are

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listening when I ask this because I, I really do want you

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to shed some light on this from your perspective. But how do you

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approach educating people who may not have direct experience

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with immigration? Right. I mean, I personally get it, I understand

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it. My wife, her mom came here from Trinidad

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in 68 or 69. She

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became a US citizen in 77. It was one of the proudest moments of

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her life. She got her son because her. My wife's

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oldest brother was actually born in Trinidad, so he became an

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American citizen, but she and her twin sister were both born here

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in the United States, so she is an American citizen. So, you know,

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I have experiences with immigration and I understand

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it, but how do you approach educating people who may not have

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any direct experience with immigration, which I would think is

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honestly a lot of the population in northwest Arkansas

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outside of the people that we're talking about. Yes. I think

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first and foremost, I just try and be patient and I try and meet

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people where they're at. So a good

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way to have a conversation with somebody about immigration in the United States

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is actually to do what you just did, and that's talk to them about their

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own family's immigration stories. Because I think

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even if you don't have much knowledge of the immigration process,

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at some point, most people in the United States either

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came here or were brought here. Right. So they

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probably has some degree of knowledge in their family history as to

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how that happened, or at least some type of misconception that we can start

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a conversation over as to how that happened. Right.

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And then we maybe talk a little bit about the history of it and how

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we got to where we're at today and, you know, why

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things are the way they are today. But really, more than anything, I just try

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and start with being patient. I try not to be judgmental. You know, I understand

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that not everybody's working in this field, and so

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not everyone's going to have a deep understanding of the

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Immigration Nationality Act. And honestly, it's so complicated. Most of us who

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do don't really completely understand it either. It's been

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likened to, you know, immigration attorneys like to say, I'm not sure this is

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really true or not, but they like to say this, the second most complicated federal

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code after the tax code. And I think most of us can agree, if you're

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being compared to the tax code, that's probably not a good thing. As

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far as relatability and understandability,

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it's pretty messed up. So I know they don't have that. And so

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I do try and just kind of slow it down, but I like to walk

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them through the process of how somebody becomes a resident. Kind of like

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we talked about before, you typically had to be petitioned by somebody, what that

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means. And then we kind of move into what some of the needs

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are from US Companies and communities that rely on immigrants and,

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and what pathways might be available to the immigrants they rely

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on. And, and I, I've noticed that most people, when you have that

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conversation with them, I think that they,

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I've seen those light bulb moments where they're like, oh, wait, okay, this really doesn't

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work the way, you know, I thought it did. Or I was told,

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or I was. Told, maybe I need, maybe I need to think about a little

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bit more. But I think as, as an electorate,

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one of the big problems you have is that ultimately, even if

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you can clear up misconceptions on something like immigration that

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might not really be the primary motivating factor for their votes.

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And so if they're voting for other things, that may not

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motivate politicians to fix the immigration

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system. But immigration is one of those things that really touches on everything. I mean,

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it does touch on law enforcement and the economy

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and culture. I mean, it really touches on almost

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everything else that could be a hot. So not only is it this hot button

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issue itself, but it touches on all the other hot button issues. And

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we've seen that especially the last 10 years of our politics.

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Yeah. And you know, I think my challenge too is that a lot of

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times they try to paint a picture of, they

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use statistics to say, oh, well, you know, a lot of people that come here

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are committing crimes and murder and all this other

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stuff. And there may be a very, very small substat of that. I mean,

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but that if you just look at the general population, you're going to run into

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some similar numbers around that. But the reality is, is that

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85, I think, was some number. It was like 85 to 90%

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of all immigrants come here are, come here legitimately

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work, pay their taxes, even when they don't technically

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have to pay their taxes. And you know, and that's the crazy thing. And

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I think that's like a message that a lot of people miss out on. They

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think they're just here on the government's teeth, as they like to

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say, and that they are just sucking up resources.

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And that couldn't be further from the truth. And I think people need to

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recognize that. No. Yeah. I mean, even if someone's not paying their

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income tax, they're very likely paying property taxes, they're very likely

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paying sales tax. Yeah. And all the other forms of taxes that

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we pay, both in the state and federal level, there's no

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doubt that, that immigrants pay their taxes and that they are not

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necessarily taking from society in any way, shape or

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form. And you know, there's statistics everywhere, Right. Everyone loves to throw on

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competing statistics. But again, immigrants tend to commit crimes at a much

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lower rate than native born US Citizens. And I

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don't think anybody at this point is seriously contemplating the deportation of

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US Citizens. Deportation is and of itself a pretty

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extreme measure. Even if, you know, you want to have

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the argument that the punishment, you know, fits the crime. Just because

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most immigrants in the United States who are not here lawfully, first and

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foremost, almost half of them have probably never committed anything that can even be

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described as a crime because

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overstaying your Visa is not criminal, and about half of

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people here are overstays. The remaining half,

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at worst, probably cross the border one time, which could be

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prosecuted as a misdemeanor, but frequently is not.

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And so you're thinking of, you know, removing somebody from their

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family and their community because of a misdemeanor

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when most people born in the United States are probably at most going to pay

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a fine or spend a few days in jail. It's not really

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proportionate, so it is pretty extreme. This is my

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final question for you because you've been so kind with your time, and I know

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you are very busy. What gives you hope

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when the system feels stacked against your clients or the

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outcomes are uncertain? I know that

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there's an ebb and flow and that things are cyclical first and

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foremost. So even if it feels like we're in a period of

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time where it might be more difficult to help our clients navigate

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the system, I know that inevitably in the next four

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years, the next eight years, whatever, you'll probably see

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a change back. Right. We're very much on a pendulum. It swings back and

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forth. That's just kind of this weird nature of American politics and. And

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probably democracy in general. Talk about whiplash. I mean, it's.

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It feels like that pendulum swing a little bit faster these days. Yeah,

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but we've always kind of been on that. That pendulum. The other thing

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is just historical. You

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know, I think kind of like you referenced earlier, the United States is a

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country that does have a lot of problems, and it always has. You

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know, we're. We're very much one of those countries that's not perfect,

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but we have these very high ideals, and we like to

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aspire to those ideals. And despite aspiring to

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them, we don't always meet them, but we aspire to them.

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And I feel like over time, despite the cyclical

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nature, we've generally moved closer to those ideals,

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is my hope. At least then we have reverting back

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to the problems. And so I feel like

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if we can continue that trend, then eventually I think

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most things will get worked out. I think the sad thing, and the thing that

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is really hard is that there's a lot of casualties along the way. There's a

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lot of people who deserve more due process and

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more respect and greater opportunities than they. Than they receive.

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Yeah, no, that's. That is well said. And certainly you

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have a lot of work ahead of you, both you and the rest of

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your team there at your firm. So I wouldn't wish

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you nothing but continued success. If anybody listening to

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this says man, I need to reach out to attorney Bogart, gain

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some insight or understanding or I have a family member that needs help or I

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have a friend that needs help. What's the best way for people to reach out

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and connect with you? They can always call our firm or visit our

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website. Go ahead and give us the number real quick. That's fine. Of course.

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So we're at

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479-957-9819.

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And then our website is defending arkansas.com

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and we're all over social media probably a little too much these

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days, but we're, we're all over for all over social media. There's no such

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thing as being too much on social media. I know,

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I know, I know. I'm being very, I'm being very facetious,

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without a doubt. But it is the nature of the beast. And so you, you

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kind of have to embrace it from time to time. So. But

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no, I, I really appreciate you taking the time to connect with us and

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really looking forward to seeing you guys have continued success

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there at Bogart Small and Dual. And I just,

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I will make sure that everybody gets all your contact information,

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how to connect with you. We'll put all of that in the show notes. We'll

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make sure that everybody gets that and we will share this out in

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many communities that are here in northwest Arkansas that can benefit from

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your service, from your help, and just from the wisdom that you guys have

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as it pertains to immigration law. Sometimes just a well placed phone call

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can do a lot to help somebody. So we really appreciate the

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work that you're doing and keep fighting the good fight. Thank you

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so much. No, thank you. It's been a very enjoyable

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conversation. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely. Well, folks, that's a

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wrap on another episode of I Am Northwest Arkansas,

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albeit a very important one, I might say a huge

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thanks to Nathan Bogart for taking us behind the headlines

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and into the human experiences that define immigration in

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our region. His insights remind us that these

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are not just legal battles. They're deeply personal

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stories of courage, contribution, and community.

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Listen, if today's episode resonated with you, please share

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it with a friend, leave a review and help spread the word.

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And as always, we'll be back next week with another

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new episode, more conversations that spotlight the people

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and stories making a difference right here in the Ozarks.

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I'm Randy Wilburn. We'll see you soon. Peace.

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We hope you enjoyed this episode of I Am Northwest

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Arkansas. Check us out each and every week. Available

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anywhere that great podcasts can be found. For show

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notes or more information on becoming a guest, visit

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imnorthwestarkinsas.com we'll

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see you next week on I Am Northwest

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Arkansas.

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