Drawing on his decades of experience with Fortune 500 companies, Dr. Darryl Stickel, author of "Building Trust," joins today’s Biz Bites for Thought Leaders podcast episode to discuss trust as a leadership superpower. He explains why most leaders overestimate their trustworthiness and reveals the three core pillars that build unbreakable teams.

Listen now and subscribe to "Biz Bites for Thought Leaders" for more essential insights!

***

Connect with Darryl on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/darryl-stickel-phd/ 

Check out their website here: https://imperfectcafe.buzzsprout.com/ 

Check out his book here: https://www.amazon.ca/Building-Trust-Exceptional-Leadership-Uncertain/dp/1637630794/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3FJEDCCA1XDBY&keywords=building+trust&qid=1654460525&sprefix=building+trust%2Caps%2C141&sr=8-1

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#leadership #professionalleaders #expertstrategy #podcastshow #podcasting

Trust is your leadership

superpower.

Dr. Darryl Stickel reveals

the three core pillars that build

unbreakable teams.

Welcome to another powerful episode

of Biz Bites for Thought Leaders.

Today we are diving deep into

the currency that makes or breaks

every business relationship trust.

Joining us is Dr.

Darryl Stickel, who is the founder of

Trust Unlimited, the author of the

groundbreaking book.

Building trust, exceptional

leadership in an uncertain world.

And he's also the host of

the Imperfect Cafe podcast.

He spent decades helping leaders

from Fortune 500 companies right

through to smaller businesses,

build unshakeable trust in the most

hostile business environments.

In the next 50 minutes, you are

going to discover why 95% of leaders

overestimate their trustworthiness,

how vulnerability actually strengthens

your authority, and the three

core pillars that underpin trust in

any relationship.

Plus, we'll explore practical levers

you can pull to close the gap

between how trusted you think you are.

And how trusted you actually are.

This is an amazing episode play.

Please pay special attention to the way

Darrell introduces himself as well.

We'll reveal more as the episode goes on.

A lot of value from this one

for every single person in business.

Well, hello everyone and welcome to

another episode of Biz Bites for

Thought Leaders, and today we are going

to have, I know a very interesting

discussion about trust.

How do we build it?

Where does it come from?

What are the implications of it?

So many things to unpack in

this short word.

That people hear all the time in

business, but what does it really mean?

We have, uh, I would say one

of the foremost experts in the

world on this topic.

Uh, Darryl Stickel joining us.

Darryl, welcome to the program.

Darryl Stickel: Thank you so much

for having me.

It's a pleasure to be with you and

with our listeners.

And, uh, I know you're a

podcaster as well, but I'm gonna get

you to introduce yourself to the

audience so everyone understands a little

bit more about who you are and

what you're about.

Darryl Stickel: Sure.

So I grew up in Northern Canada.

In a small community, and

it was isolated, kind of harsh.

Winters minus 40 was not unusual.

Um, and so people had to rely

on each other.

And so I got a sense that if I

could be helpful, I should, and growing

up there, uh, you developed a strong

sense of community.

When I was 17, I was playing hockey

and I got attacked by a fan with a

club, um, shattered my helmet, knocked

me unconscious.

I apparently stopped breathing three

times on the way to the hospital.

Wow.

And you know, when I was growing up,

I, I had a. Retinal disorder, hereditary

retinal disorder.

I knew I was gonna eventually

lose my sight, that I'd become

legally blind.

My intent had been to think for a

living, and now all of a sudden,

here I am, I can't think I've got

the attention span of a fruit fly.

And so there was this long stretch

of helplessness and hopelessness,

and what it provoked in me was

a really strong sense of empathy.

And it took me a couple of years

to really recover.

But what I did.

Strange things started happening.

So I, I would be sitting on a bus and

a complete stranger would come up and

sit next to me and say, I'm really

having a hard time.

And people would open up

to me quickly.

And I, I wanted to understand why that

was happening and it felt like maybe

I was destined for a life working as a

clinical counselor.

So I started working with street kids

and families in crisis and troubled

teens and working on crisis lines.

To further hone those skills and

gain a better understanding

of what was going on for me.

And I, I came this close to

becoming a clinical psychologist

and I realized that, you know,

it would, it had taken these people

a long time to get where they were.

It was gonna take a long time for

them to find their way out of it,

and then it would drive me crazy.

Um, and so I transitioned.

It ended up in public

administration doing a master's degree

in public admin, working in native

land claims in British Columbia.

And they would ask me these deep

philosophical questions like, what

is self-government?

Or What will the province look like

50 years after claims are settled?

The last question they asked me

was, how do we convince a group

of people we've shafted for over

a hundred years?

They should trust us.

And man, that just seemed like such

a good question.

Hmm.

And it gets to the heart of these

long-term disputes, why they're so

resilient, even when they're not

doing anyone any good anymore.

Um, so I went to Duke and wrote my

doctoral thesis on building

trust in hostile environments.

And I had two incredible academics

on my committee who were both

experts on trust.

And they sat me down after I finished

and they said, you know, when you

first came to us.

We had a conversation

with each other.

We said, it's too big, too

complicated.

He's never gonna solve it.

We'll give him six months and then

he'll come crawling back and that'll

be his thesis.

We'll let him just shave off a little

piece of this.

Anthony Perl: Mm-hmm.

Darryl Stickel: They said six

months in, you're so far beyond us.

We couldn't help anymore.

All we could do is sit and watch.

Said here we're a few years

later, we think you've solved it.

So I left academia, went

into consulting.

I got hired by McKinsey Company,

a big management consulting firm.

Now all of a sudden, I'm getting

a chance to apply these concepts

that I've theorized about and they

recognized, they said, wow, you got

great client hands.

Let's send you to the worst

places possible.

You know, so places where there had been

strikes or hostile takeovers, they

would send me in to work with clients.

And I'm getting a chance to apply

these concepts and having success doing

it, and then I get injured on the way

to a client site.

The car on me rear ends

another vehicle.

I end up with a really bad

concussion again, and I can't

work 80 hours a week anymore.

And so I start my own little company

called Trust Unlimited, and I

start helping people better understand

what trust is, how it works, and

how to build it.

And over the next 20 years, my

learning curve is almost vertical.

As I'm applying these concepts,

formulating better ideas, learning

how to help people understand the

concepts better and how to prob problem

solve with them.

So that's kind of brings us

up to today.

That is quite a journey.

Yeah.

Uh, I love, I I love that.

You know what's fascinating to me as

I was sitting there listening to you and

I, I asked the same question of everyone

coming on the show to introduce

themselves, and we get a variation of

people that give me the 15 second

version to what you did, to the more

elaborate one and the interesting

thing about what you've just.

Given us is a story, a journey,

uh, of your life and where you've

got to, and you can feel already,

and I, I, it's not a matter of,

um, what you feel because there's a

mixture of different things in there.

There's admiration, there's empathy,

there's lots of different things

that are going on.

But immediately with that, what's

interesting to me is, is I feel

like I wanna trust you already.

How much.

Of building trust is emotional.

It's a really big part.

And man, that's good insight because

that was the core of my thesis.

One of the things that really

differentiated most of the 99%

of the trust research treats

people like they're rational actors.

And you've met people

before, right?

Hmm.

We're not always rational and, and

the more emotional we become, the less

rational we are.

And so for me, I, I developed a, a full

fledge model for how the trust decision

works and how we can actually take

practical applied steps to build it.

But in the heart of this whole thing

is our emotional states, whether

we like or dislike somebody else.

'cause if we like people, we have

this positive story about them.

We want to find reasons

to trust them.

We're more likely to trust them,

we're more likely to evaluate

the outcomes we have with them

positively, and that makes us like

them even more.

So.

It creates these virtuous cycles.

Anthony Perl: It's, it's really

fascinating to me that.

The, you know, we, we live in these two

sides of our brain.

In fact, we probably live most of our

time in our, in our very rational

side of the brain.

Mm-hmm.

Yet from a marketing perspective, we

always say that, uh, 90% of decision

making is, uh, is, you know, is the

emotional side and 10% is justifying

the emotion.

So, you know, with that in

mind is that.

The key to the formula for trust

is, is it, is it really building that

emotional connection first before you can

start to rationalize it in some way?

Darryl Stickel: Well, for me it's

about resetting those emotional

states if they're negative, right?

And, and we can start a positive

cycle fairly easily by finding

things that we like about the other

person, having a positive narrative

about them, a positive story.

When it comes to my sons, I have

a relentlessly positive story about

them, which means that new information

that comes to me, I interpret it through

that lens, right?

And so when they were younger and

they were in school and their teachers

would say, yeah, he's misbehaving.

I would start to get curious, what's

provoking that?

You know, because I'm not prepared

to just blame him and say he's

dysfunctional.

I'm more curious about what are

the settings, what are the

triggering events?

What's the environment that

you've created that's bringing

that out in him?

Because I don't see it.

Mm-hmm.

So, but I think for me, we just need to

be aware that these negative emotions,

if they're really strong, are gonna

trump any kind rational approach

that we take to try to build trust

with somebody else.

We need to at least be aware of them and

try to reset those emotional states.

First, if they exist.

It's really intriguing

when you talk about some of these areas,

because we do have a lens that is.

What our life is, right?

The, our experiences and things

that we've been through, right?

It is going to impact our ability

to trust someone we've just met,

for example, right?

Because, um, I'm gonna give

you an example.

Um, I was brought up in a time when

very few people had tattoos, okay?

And so you were brought up with a

lens that if they had tattoos, they

were probably from the wrong side

of the street.

Now fast forward to, uh, Australia.

Now I watch a lot of football.

Um, there's barely a player that doesn't

have tattoos.

The whole, um, you know, it used

to be that you couldn't get a job

if you had them.

You had to cover them up,

um, all those sorts of things.

And that's completely changed.

So it's very interesting how

things change, but it's interesting.

But I was very aware when that transition

started happening in society, that became

more common, became very aware that

I had this lens.

That said, don't trust these people.

It wasn't a rational one.

Right.

Um, you know, it was just brought

up on, you know, people don't have

tattoos and, and therefore if they

do, they must be this kind of person.

And it's interesting how those things

not only, you know, I became

very self-aware of it, but also

how it can change when you are aware

how it can change the way you think

and how indeed.

Those things change.

I mean, I, I suppose one other obvious

example is, you know, it wasn't

that long ago that people would say,

don't trust anything where you have

to buy it online.

Right?

We, you know, don't, don't, don't trust

putting your credit card down online.

Well, now you would argue that

it's probably more trustworthy to do,

do it in some online secure environments

than it might be to do it in person.

So again.

Things change.

So how do you accommodate that

and how important is being self-aware

and, and noticing those changes

that happen?

Wow.

So you're opening up all kinds of

things for me here.

And it, it's gotta be because

you're from down under, because

you're taking me in reverse order.

Through what I normally talk about,

um, context is I hope that's a good

thing.

Make it more fun.

Darryl Stickel: Yeah, absolutely.

So you're talking about context in,

in some respects, which is sort of the

formal and informal rules of the game.

Right.

And context is one of the other pieces

that I added in my doctoral thesis

because I needed a way to explain

why we trust or mistrust some people

without knowing anything about them.

And overwhelmingly the literature

talks about trust from an individual

perspective, but it ignores the

elements of context.

And a lot of times what I would do

is, I would say to people, if you

could be anywhere with anyone doing

anything right now, how many of you

would be sitting here listening

to me speak?

And I, I, I had to stop doing

that 'cause it wasn't good for

my self-esteem.

But, you know, because the question

becomes, well then why are you here?

And they're there because it's their

job or they've got something

else on the go, or they're traveling

somewhere and they're listening

to the podcast

context explains why we go into a

doctor's office and the doctor

says, take off your clothes.

And we do.

Right?

I've tried that.

In other places it doesn't work.

And if we change the context, we

could have the same two people

with the exact same dialogue, but move

them from a doctor's office to a gas

station restroom.

And it goes from credible to creepy

in a heartbeat.

Yep.

Darryl Stickel: Right.

And so what you're referring

to is the fact that perceptions

and values have changed over time.

Norms and expectations have

changed over time.

And you're right, a lot of times

we're not even aware of our own

context until we start to become

thoughtful about it.

And one of the exercises I got a

of senior executives to do was.

I sit down and I want you to think

about how the CEO is constrained and

each of the VPs is gonna write down

how they think.

The CEO is constrained by

the context.

And then I want the CEO to do the

same for the for, for themselves.

And at the end, we started going

through and, and having a

conversation.

What have you written down?

What did, what were the

takeaways for you?

And.

It provoked this really interesting

conversation because they had different

perspectives than the CEO did.

I've done the same thing with a

captain on a naval vessel when I was

doing some training with the military.

You know, we have very different

understanding is how of how each of

us is constrained and making that

surfacing, that making people

more aware of it is a great way

to help reduce uncertainty because.

For me, trust is the willingness to make

yourself vulnerable when you can't

completely predict how someone else

is gonna behave.

And that definition includes elements

of vulnerability and uncertainty.

And so in my model, it's uncertainty

times, vulnerability gives us a level

of perceived risk, and we each

have a threshold of risk that we

can tolerate.

If we go beyond that threshold,

we don't trust.

If we're beneath it, then we do.

So what that means is that if

uncertainty is really high, then

vulnerability has to be low to

still fit beneath that threshold.

And as our relationships

get deeper, the uncertainty goes

down and the range of vulnerability

we can tolerate cts to grow.

And so if we want to build trust,

it's actually fairly simple.

It's where does uncertainty come

from and how do we take steps

to reduce it?

And where does vulnerability come

from and how do we take steps to

help the other person manage it?

And so uncertainty comes from us as

individuals, and it comes from

the context we're embedded in, and

the better able we are to describe

or outline our context, the less

uncertainty there is for somebody else,

the easier it is for them to trust us.

Anthony Perl: Interesting.

I I, so with, with all of that in mind,

and, and, uh, I'm, I'm interested as

to whether the, the introduction

that you gave.

Is part partly because of the

formula that you have in mind,

because you were quite vulnerable

in what you, um, you know, gave

over about, uh, the journey that

you've had in your life Because it

wasn't a, it wasn't a, you didn't

gimme a resume.

Put it that way.

You gave me, you gave me a story

in which you were quite vulnerable

about, you know, having been, um,

you know, on death door at one point.

Um, you know, and, and other things

that have happened to you throughout

your life.

Is that, um, a deliberate strategy

to build trust or is that just something

that's become a reaction that you

know to everything that you've done?

Darryl Stickel: So partly I try

to live the model.

Um, I use it when I raise my sons.

I use it when I teach.

Um, and I, until you just asked me

that question, I hadn't thought about

the reason I tell the story, but part

of, you're right, part of what I do

is I make myself vulnerable and

that initiates a norm of reciprocity

in others.

They feel like if Darryl's willing

to be vulnerable with me, that it's

okay for me to be vulnerable back.

And partly I get a lot of practice.

I'm legally blind and my guide

dog, Drake, and I wander the world

trying to make it a better place.

I need help often.

And I have realized that it doesn't make

me less than that.

That there is the potential for

people to take advantage of me.

Of my vision and the the

challenges I have,

but I've been overwhelmed at how

wonderful people are and how willing

to help they are.

And I've had really positive

experiences with being vulnerable

and it may be part of what makes

people comfortable being vulnerable

back to me.

It is interesting,

isn't it?

Because you are, as you say, you are

being forced to, particularly if you

are, you know, in a, in a situation

outside where you've got your D guide

dog with you, it's very obvious what

your vulnerability is, right?

And wearing that on your sleeve is

a difficult thing, but you don't

have a choice and.

It's interesting though that today

people are generally speaking more

and more guarded, aren't they?

I mean, yeah.

And, and I find this an interesting

dilemma in business and I, I, I remember

back even to the, I think to the

very first episode of this podcast,

uh, for those that wanna go back, we

had a discussion with, um, with

Karen at the time and talking about

this idea that.

Is outdated notion that it used to be

when you rocked up to business that

you had to leave your personal

life outside the door, and that it

was all focused on business until

you walk back in.

Nowadays that attitude seems

to be that you, you know, the

recognition that you carry it with you.

Um, and particularly if people work

from home, but yet the guards

are very much up.

There's, you know, AI I think

is making things more and more.

Um, you know, polished and

putting more and more barriers

up and trying to separate that.

And so that, allowing that

vulnerability, it's becoming

challenging.

It is.

Darryl Stickel: Yeah.

And you're bang on.

So you, your instincts are

so good around this stuff.

Uh, you're doing a magnificent

job, by the way.

Um, thank you.

When I think about, you know, trust

is at some of the lowest levels we've

ever measured.

If we think about it using the model

I described before, our vulnerability

certainly hasn't gone down.

You know, we feel just as vulnerable

as we used to, or maybe a little

more so, but our uncertainty is

bouncing all over the place, right?

We've seen pandemics,

we've seen.

Changes in norms and values.

We see technological changes at an

increasing pace.

We see political instability and

and conflict around the world.

These massive fluctuations and

uncertainty make us incredibly

uncomfortable, and so the ask,

asking you to be just a little

more vulnerable to me by trusting

me is harder than it's ever been.

And this is part of the, you know, I've

started working on a project called

the Aspiring Men's Program because

the statistics for young men right

now are horrific.

They, they make up 80% of the

suicide rate.

Um, they're trending down in terms of,

uh, educational outcomes, mental

health outcomes, addiction.

You know, they're, they're really in a

time of crisis and they are struggling

to be vulnerable in a profound way.

Hmm.

Darryl Stickel: They are the

hardest group to reach because they

don't ask for help and they don't

send signals.

They, they are reluctant to

accept help.

They isolate.

Um, and so you're right, it's becoming

harder and harder for us to be.

Vulnerable with one another because it

feels like we're raw and already

over overexposed.

And it's, you know, we

live in a society where there's an

expectation of performance and,

um, you know, I know it's actually

interesting that around me, uh,

in the last year, um, 2, 3, 4, even.

Um, reasonably close friends that have.

Found themselves, uh, lost

out of work.

Mm-hmm.

That they've lost their, they've lost

their position, and, and mostly

it's been through no fault of their own.

It's a, you know, restructuring

situation, whatever's

happening in, in different businesses

and things.

And I was actually thinking about this

the other day, that that's, that is so

vulnerable to tell people about that

because there's an expectation that

you'll always be employed and you'll

always be aspiring at a high level and

you'll keep going up and up and up.

And that's not always the case.

Right.

And but even that for, I think

particularly for men, is actually

a, it's, it's very, it's it's

very vulnerable because there's

an expectation, particularly

not just around performance,

but around, um.

Financial side of things,

Darryl Stickel: right?

Yeah.

It's, it's a real challenge for men.

And when I was teaching, I

was teaching in Luxembourg and one

of my students, I think he was from

Russia, he was definitely from

Eastern Europe.

He said, any man who makes himself

vulnerable isn't a real man.

And so there's this very strong

mindset around you gotta be perfect.

You can't make mistakes.

And you don't ever admit that

you're struggling or need help.

And I challenged that idea, right?

I said, look, I, I'm teaching here.

I'm making myself vulnerable

all the time.

I'm sharing stories about myself,

imperfections about myself.

Are you suggesting I'm not a real man?

And he kind of went, well.

I said, 'cause we could go outside

and have a f. Fairly serious discussion

about that.

He was like, no, no, no.

I said, okay.

Because I think it's actually a sign of

strength to be able to be vulnerable,

to ask for help.

And you know, I was working with

a group of senior executives and we

were talking about benevolence, which

is one of the levers we can pull, right?

So from the individual

perspective, we've talked about

context, but from the individual

perspective, there's three levers.

I can pull to make you think

I'm trustworthy.

One is benevolence, which is the

belief you have got your best

interest at heart.

Two is integrity.

Do I follow through on my

commitments and do my actions line

up with my values?

And three is ability.

Do I have the confidence to

do what I say I'm gonna do?

And so I'm getting them to tell stories

about times when they've helped

someone when they've been benevolent.

And there's six of them in the room.

And they go around and they tell these

powerful stories and they're all smiling,

and the, the mood is just buzzing, right?

You can just feel the intensity.

And I said, this is fantastic.

Now if, if you could just explain

to me why you're so effing selfish.

And they go, what?

What are you talking about?

I said, even years later,

you describe how powerful a moment

it was for you to help somebody.

To show up when they needed you.

And you feel the positive energy

that in this exact moment,

but you never let anyone have that

experience with you.

You never ask for help.

You never admit you don't know

something.

You never reach out.

Anthony Perl: Interesting.

It, it, it's, it's, it's so,

you know, I can immediately thinking

of many situations where I think

I've seen that.

I think we all can.

Yeah.

Um, and uh, you know, what

fascinates me about vulnerability is

that saying before that the walls are

up so often, and you know, I mentioned to

you before we came on air and those

listening to the program are very

aware that, uh, you know, my primary

business is podcast done for you.

Great.

And so podcasting is very much about, um.

Building trust with your audience and

vulnerability is a key part of that.

And it comes into telling stories

because it's a learning curve.

It's showing that you've learned.

I think it's one of the differences

between a podcast and a webinar.

Webinar is very much a, these

are my learnings.

This is what you've gotta do, um,

come by from me.

Whereas a podcast is.

Get to know me, let me share some

things, let me share some how

I've gone on this journey and these

different things along the way.

And I think that's what makes a truly

great podcast is when that is open

and you hear that all the time.

You know, whether it's a celebrity

based podcast, uh, you know, where

you've got actors telling about

auditions and things that happen early

on in their career, et cetera, uh, to.

A business.

You know, I've, I've a podcast

I've got with a particular client

that I'm thinking of and was talking

about, you know, his early days of

teaching and, and, uh, how things went

wrong, you know, in a particular

episode that he talked about.

And I think that that sort of

vulnerability is rarer than what

you, than what people think

that these, these barriers are up.

And yet we want people to do

business with us.

We want them to trust us.

How do you actually get that message

through that vulnerability

is so important.

Yeah.

And this is

part of the challenge.

I mean, my podcast is called The

Imperfect Cafe.

Um, and it's, it's around leadership.

And I agree with you.

We're trying to build trust with our

audience so that we can engage with them

so that we hopefully have impact.

We have a positive impact

on their lives.

Right.

And.

When I talk to people about pulling

these levers, you know, the,

the ability lever tends to be our

favorite lever.

Mm.

Darryl Stickel: And so we'll

say, I have these much, this much

experience, these credentials, you

know, this position in the world.

But if I really wanted to know what

good look like, I'd actually include you

in the conversation.

Right.

And

yeah,

Darryl Stickel: something I normally

do is, is I'll say, I wanna be the

best guest you've ever had, or one

of the best guests you've ever had.

How do I do that?

And so if I asked you that you'd,

you'd say, well, you'd help my

listeners be better off than they

are today before they've listened

to the podcast.

You'd be.

Engaging and genuine.

And you think about my audience, not

just yourself.

Absolutely.

Right.

And so,

so I'm trying to be the best I can be

for your audience.

And one of the interesting

challenges that you face is

you're helping people with vastly

different audiences.

And so you should, should be having

conversations.

'cause in a perfect world, you and

I would actually talk to some of

your listeners and say, what's

compelling for you?

How do I speak in a way that helps make

your life better, that makes you want

to listen to this podcast that makes

it change your life in a positive way.

It's, and it's really

interesting you say that and you.

May not be able to see what

is behind me.

And there's a sign that says, uh, and

for those that are listening and not

watching as well, it's worthwhile

pointing out.

There's a sign behind me that

says, being the voice of brilliance.

Brilliance is, is something that

I talk very much about in, in podcast

Done for You.

Uh, that that's what we are

seeking to do, is to allow other

people's brilliance to be heard.

It's part of what we're doing on

this program is, is allowing our guest

brilliance to be heard and brilliance

can be mistaken for perfection.

But it's not right.

Brilliance comes from stories and

vulnerability as much as

anything else.

And I think, you know, if I

certainly, you know, in, in ticking

the boxes for what makes a great guest

for this program, there's two probably

critical elements and the one we

most commonly talk about is giving

those little one percenters that will

make a difference to people listening

that can act on things and improve

their life, their business as a

result of, of some ideas that

have come across on the program.

Right, but just giving those ideas

on their own without context and story

is useless because why would you

trust that person?

Why would you believe them?

When you hear the story around it

and you understand the thought and

the processes that have gone into it,

and the insights that have happened

along the way, then the trust

factor increases and the desire.

Therefore to enact on some of

those things and potentially also

then to want to engage directly with

the guest increases.

Darryl Stickel: Yeah,

Anthony Perl: I mean, I, I'm

definitely hoping that, uh, people

are going to, um, you know, tune in

and listen to your podcast as well, and

we'll make sure we include some links

to that in the, uh, in the show notes.

Darryl Stickel: Yeah, that'd

be brilliant.

I mean, part of my mission is to

get the signal through the noise.

Because, 'cause when I talk to real

people and I show them the model,

they go, this just feels obvious.

It feels like common sense.

Like how is, how'd you get a PhD? And

when I talk to trust experts, they go,

nobody else on the planet is talking

about it this way.

This is so practical and applied.

You're talking about, you know,

I have 10 levers in my model.

We all have the ability to

build trust.

Some are just better than others.

You know, those who aren't very

good have a lever that they pull.

Usually it's the ability lever.

Those who are better have multiple

levers, and those who are really good

have multiple levers and they know when

to pull which one.

Right.

So you and I just role modeled the

ability lever.

Hmm.

Right.

Trying to pull that and having a

discussion about what good looks like

for you, what good looks like for your

audience so they can have a conversation.

Because a lot of times leaders,

I'll tell them benevolence,

integrity and ability, and

they'll go, I do those things.

Yep.

And I'll say, says who?

Right?

Because if it's me telling you I've got

your best interest at heart, it doesn't

land nearly as well as you believing it.

Yep.

Darryl Stickel: And for you to

believe it, I have to include you in

the conversation

Anthony Perl: and, and it's so

interesting with all of that because

one of the things that I talk about.

And again, this is not what this

conversation tool will be about

podcasting, but I think it's an

important thing point to make

here is that the best podcasts are

a conversation where the people

that are listening feel like you are

talking to them,

Darryl Stickel: right?

Anthony Perl: And that is

what the key is.

Is that, you know, I, I've

worked in radio for a long time.

I've built large audiences in radio

and the key thing that I learned

very early on in the piece was you

don't think about the thousands

and hundreds of thousands of

people that might be listening.

It just has to be one person that

is sitting there going, they're

talking to me.

And if that's the case, then you

are building, as you said, you're

building trust.

Darryl Stickel: Yeah, and I, I

try to role model the model, so

I try to show benevolence, right?

Like, there's nothing I'm

holding back.

There's no, you know, buy this for

10 easy lessons or here's the secret.

I'm telling you everything that

comes to mind.

When I wrote the book, I wrote it

so that if I go away, what I know

doesn't, and I. I'm trying to help

your audience be better prepared to

have conversations about trust than

they were before they listened.

I find it fascinating

when you read a lot of content that's

posted online, and particularly

now with the advent of ai.

It's tries to talk in some respects,

to an emotion.

You need this very rarely.

Are there stories that are built into

the component and very rarely are

there vulnerable stories that are

built into it.

Darryl Stickel: Right.

And that's where I think

the difference is.

It's fascinating.

Even when you look at some of

the well-known entrepreneurs,

the, the.

You know, the big people over the

years that, uh, and pick any number of

different ones from a, you know, Richard

Branson onwards.

Um, there is a degree of

vulnerability with what they

give over as well.

And I think that we lose that because

everyone's striving for the perfection

and forget that a perfection's

not achievable.

Darryl Stickel: Right.

Anthony Perl: Um, but, but b,

that, um, it's.

It's the journey which entices people

along the way.

That's what's fascinating

about speaking to those people.

Darryl Stickel: Yeah, and every

leader I talked to, I ask them, are you

the same leader now?

You were five years ago?

And they all say, no.

I've learned and grown and developed.

And I'll say, are you gonna be the

same leader five years from now?

No, I, I hope not.

So that means you're gonna let go of

some of the things that got you here,

some of the things you're good at, and

step into the things that would make you

great as you evolve.

And anytime you try something new,

you make mistakes.

And so how do we prepare the people

around us for the fact that we're

gonna stumble?

And I tell 'em they should be thinking

about having a conversation with

those they lead and saying we're all

gonna be learning and adapting and

evolving because the world's moving

too fast for us to stand still.

And on that journey, we're all gonna

make mistakes, including me.

I will stumble and I may fall.

When I do that, my expectation is

that you're gonna be standing beside

me, helping me back up, helping

me learn from that experience.

'cause that's exactly what

I'm gonna be doing for you.

Sure.

Anthony Perl: It's, you know,

that idea is so simple, but yet.

It seems like a, there's a, there are

many brick walls in between it for the

majority of people.

Yeah.

And I imagine that when you've gone

into businesses small to large, that

it's those walls being up, which is

usually the cause of the problem.

Darryl Stickel: Yeah.

It's often the inability to accept

responsibility for, for our

own mistakes.

Um, or to tolerate the mistakes

of others.

Um, I've heard so many senior leaders

say, if I make one mistake, I'm done.

And that can't be true because we all

make mistakes on a regular basis.

Um, and so what I try to convince

leaders to do is to actually talk

about the fact that.

They haven't been perfect the whole

time they've been around, but they've

made mistakes and when they were

in other roles that there was

a learning curve that was involved.

It helps humanize them because if

we wander around with this mindset

that I have to be perfect, it means we

need everyone else to be perfect too.

And that leads to micromanaging

and squelching of innovation

and adaptation.

It means that people become

incredibly cautious.

And one of my favorite papers

is by, uh, one of my advisors, SIM

Kin, and it, the concept is the gains

of small losses.

And in that paper he says that if your

people are pushing to the limit of

their abilities, they should be

making mistakes.

And if they aren't, it's a

sign that they're being cautious,

too conservative.

Anthony Perl: It's there are,

when you, when you talk about

businesses at that level, it's

amazing to me how many times you

have A-A-C-E-O that commissions some

research and when the research comes

back that says.

They might be the problem, how quickly

they quash that and move to other areas

because they can't possibly be the

problem and they're not allowed to be

the problem because they're the CEO or

the business owner.

And it just, that's not what,

it's just not what they're looking

for as the, as the answer, right?

Darryl Stickel: Yeah.

Or resistance to getting that kind

of information in the first place.

Right, because I've been involved in

situations where we've said, well,

we could measure trust levels.

And senior executives are

quick to say, you could do that for

middle management, but not for us.

Um, and this gets us to one

of the challenges that we face.

You know, trust has incredible value.

We've seen that it leads to world

breaking performance leads to incredible

outcomes if it's high enough.

Within teams and organizations,

it leads to higher returns to

shareholders, higher retention rates,

all these things.

Yet it's at some of the lowest levels

we've ever measured.

The biggest gap we tend to find

is between how much CEOs believe

they're trusted senior executives,

and how much they actually are.

And, and so there's this delusion,

you know, 95% of us believe we're

more trustworthy than average, and

that's not just statistically

impossible.

It's problematic.

Yeah.

Because it means that if, if

something came up between you and

I, we would both think be thinking

it's the other person's fault.

Yep.

It means we're not able to resolve

those conversations or, or challenges

that we run into.

And so, you know, I talk to people about

the locus of control challenge, you

know, an internal versus an external

locus of control.

And for your listeners, an

internal looks of control means

you're master of your own destiny.

You make things happen in the

world, you're, you're an actor.

External looks of control means

you're buffeted by the winds of fate.

Things happen to you.

Yep.

And so when I used to teach undergrads,

I'd say to them, you know, I'd explain

that and I'd say, who here has an

internal of control?

And all the hands would go up stirring

site, and I'd say, this is awesome.

This means that if you fail the class

or do poorly, it's not because I didn't

teach it properly.

The test was too hard.

It's all you baby.

And they'd all kind of go, oh,

wait a minute.

I said, that's right.

We tend to have an internal lo

of control and we're successful

and an external locus of control

when we fail.

And my sons were heavily involved

in sports.

They never lost a game where the

ref didn't suck.

And so.

This is one of the challenges

we have with learning, right?

Because what we should be doing is

looking at those situations when

we're successful and saying, what

role did the environment play?

So that I can look for environments

like that in the future to improve

my chances of being successful.

And when we fail, we should be looking

at our own behavior and saying, what

are some of the things I could have

done differently?

How could I learn?

I, it's a fascinating

analogy.

I think for, for what you've just

described is actually sport

and, and football in particular,

and it doesn't matter which kind

of football code you follow, we've

all heard this.

The team has lost, they blame the, you

know, there's a, particularly the

fans, I wouldn't say necessarily

the coaches, but the fans often

blame the referee.

Sometimes the coaches do as well.

Yep.

If this had have been ruled this way,

then we would've won the game and.

You know, but I think actually the

truly great coaches might question

some decisions, but still say that

there's so much that we can take

out of the game.

It wasn't that one, two second moment

where the ref blew the whistle.

That actually changed the fate

of the game because there were, you

know, there were x number of minutes

of, of other times that things happened

that the game could have been won.

Right.

And that's the, that's the

difference isn't it as well in business

It is that you can focus on those

little things, but it is actually

going back to being more vulnerable and

looking at what were the other things

that went wrong.

It wasn't just that moment.

Darryl Stickel: Well, and we

can also see the forwards blame the

defense for not getting the ball

to them or everyone blaming the goalie.

'cause he only stopped 30 of

the 35 shots that came at him.

Um, and we could see that happen within

organizations, right?

Where we blame it on sales or marketing

or operations or distribution.

We create these us and them scenarios

when it should be we, and we should

be creating an environment where

if there are problems we need

to solve them.

Anthony Perl: I think it's.

So important to not only be vulnerable

as we've talked about here, but also

to be willing to give in a way that

makes an impact.

Darryl Stickel: Yeah.

I think that's such an

important thing that often businesses

hold back say, well, we're the leader.

I hate that.

Determined because so many businesses

say that we are the leader.

I don't know how you justify that.

Who's actually given that, uh,

particular honor 'cause I've never

seen it, uh, in a particular space.

Therefore, you must trust us and we will

do stuff for you without actually

giving anything over, right?

Because if you can't be a little bit

impactful with what you deliver, and

you've given plenty of insights today

in this, uh, in this conversation of what

things people can do and the impact that

they can make, then you can't possibly

expect to build.

Trust as well.

And it's one of the things I like doing

and, and I often do this in business,

uh, as well, and we've had a person

behind this on the program in the past.

It's a terrific organization called

B one G one, and it's very easy to

show when you have.

Interactions with people, how you

can make an impact somewhere else

in the world as well as a result

of simply having a conversation.

And, um, you know, I, and, and that's

a positive impact through a charity.

And it can happen from a few cents

to hundreds of dollars, whatever

it, whatever you choose to, to do.

And I think impact for business.

Doesn't have to be necessarily just

about what you do.

'cause that can sometimes be

difficult to pull off, right?

But you can make an impact in some

way, shape, or form to build that

level of trust.

Darryl Stickel: Well, and as a

leader, I tend to think that one

of the strongest levers we can pull

is the benevolence lever, right?

So benevolence integrity and

ability are the three sort of

individual levers, and that's where

most of the trust literature sits.

Um,

a ability is a moving target.

What made a great leader 10 years

ago is probably not the same

thing that makes them great today.

And integrity is getting harder

and harder to maintain because

norms and values are shifting and

the world is moving so fast, it's hard

to make long-term commitments, but

we can always have each other's best

interests at heart.

We can always try to look out

for each other.

And, you know, there's a number of

ways we can do that.

Um, again, I was teaching

in Luxembourg.

I was sitting with a group of students.

I said to them, you know, I said to one

of them, tell me a relationship that

matters to you.

One, that's important.

He said, one girlfriend.

I said, great, and what matters to her?

And he said, her family.

I think her family's the most

important thing.

I said, tonight, you're gonna

go home.

You're gonna have a conversation with

your girlfriend.

You're gonna say in class today,

the professor was asking us about a

relationship that really mattered, and

I thought about you.

That's step one.

You're showing her that you're thinking

about her and that she matters to you.

I said, and then you're gonna say

to her, he asked me what was most

important to you?

And I said, family.

Is that right?

Step two, you're thinking about

what matters to her, but you're

open to her input.

You are open to being wrong if you

didn't get it right.

Said when she says, yes, my family's

really important to me, then you engage

in step three, which is saying, because

your family matters so much to you, I'm

gonna assume that it matters to you

that I get along well with them too.

And so I'm gonna start spending

more time trying to build a stronger

relationship with your family.

I'm gonna have dinners with them.

I'm gonna have conversations

with them.

I'm gonna share more parts of my life

with them because it matters to you.

And that's showing her benevolence and

being transparent about it.

He showed up the next day in class

with a huge grin on his face.

He said, I'm allowed to talk to you

whenever I want.

Um, and it it's about being

transparent when we're trying to

show benevolence to to one another.

And I'd like to give your audience

a brief framework that they can use

to try this out

place.

So.

Say that you were listening to the

Biz Bytes podcast.

'cause that's good for, uh, all of us.

Um, and that you heard somebody

talking about trust and they said

benevolence was really important.

And really, that's just a fancy word.

That means having someone's back or

having their best interest at heart.

And then you're gonna say, I think

I do that, but it doesn't always seem

to land that way.

Have you ever experienced that?

99% of people are gonna say,

oh God, yes.

You're gonna get curious about that.

What did they do?

What did they try?

How did it not work out the way

they intended?

Then you're gonna narrow the funnel

and you're gonna say, have you ever

had a time when somebody really had

your back really looked out for you?

What did they do?

What did it feel like?

And they're gonna get a smile on

their face as they're thinking

about a moment when someone really

looked out for them.

You're priming them for the next stage

of the conversation.

You're getting hints about what

benevolence actually looks like to them.

What, what matters to them.

Then you're gonna narrow the funnel

further and you're gonna say, what is

success for you?

How do I help you get there?

What would it look like if I

had your best interest at heart?

Now you've created an opportunity for

transparency because later on when you

follow up and try to act in their

best interest, you can say to them,

you remember when you told me that

this is what good looked like for you?

What success was for you?

This is me trying to help you get there.

Anthony Perl: I love that.

Thank you so much for that.

And everything else in the discussion,

I feel as though we could talk for

hours and hours and hours on this,

on this topic.

Um, just want to wrap things up with

one final question that I like to ask

all of my guests who come on the program.

What's the aha moment that people

have when they come to work with you

that you wish they were, they knew in

advance they were going to have?

Hmm.

So when, when people hear that we're

gonna do trust training, they often

think about hot calls and blindfolds

and falling off of things.

Um,

trust building is a skill that

we can all get better at and.

I wish I didn't have to take quite

as long explaining that to them, making

it clear to them, because we need to

be more intentional about building

trust now than we've ever had to

be in in the past.

Our relationships tend to be a mile

wide and an inch deep, and we're

losing the ability to build deeper,

more resilient relationships.

So I wish that people could realize

right from the start that this is a skill

that they can invest time and energy and

to get better at.

Anthony Perl: I love that.

And, uh, I will go on the back of that

and say, I think that extends as

well to when people are starting or

building personal relationships

in terms of just interactions on

a, on a direct messaging service,