In Cosmic Confluence Podcast, hosted by Sana, we step into a tender, often polarized space: healing outside traditional medical modalities—without turning it into “anti-medicine” or wishful thinking. This episode holds nuance, not extremes, as we explore what happens when lived experience doesn’t neatly fit inside protocols.

This conversation is for anyone navigating chronic illness, caregiving stress, or system fatigue—and for those craving a more human definition of care. You’ll hear how small wins build momentum, why reclaiming personal agency matters, and how hope can exist without guaranteeing outcomes.

About the Guest:

Kim McCarthy and Kellie Hazlett are collaborators behind Healing Through the Quantum. Kellie is living with an ALS diagnosis label and shares her lived experience of symptom improvement through integrative, lifestyle-based approaches, alongside ongoing engagement with research and community efforts.

Episode Chapter:

1. 00:05:19 — Setting the tone: healing without rushing to certainty
2. 00:07:14 — No miracle cures: agency, nuance, and responsible hope
3. 00:08:26 — Kellie’s mindset shift: building a team, research, and balance
4. 00:12:05 — The gap in care: what systems miss and why tracking matters
5. 00:16:20 — Multifaceted healing: emotional work, frequency tools, and nervous system care
6. 00:18:48 — “I planned my funeral”: grief, shock, and choosing a new story
7. 00:33:06 — Red flags, discernment, and staying gentle with vulnerability

Key Takeaways:

1. Define “alternative” as expanded care, not rejection of medicine
2. Measure progress in small, real markers (minutes standing, mobility changes)
3. Track what you do (food, movement, practices) to notice patterns over time
4. Reclaim agency: stop outsourcing all power to systems or labels
5. Use discernment: if something doesn’t feel right in your body, pause and reassess
6. Prioritize nervous system gentleness—especially with complex conditions

How to Connect With the Guest:

1. Website: https://thepipelinestrategies.com/
2. Email: jumpinto@thepipelinestrategies.com
3. Social: LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube (Healing Through the Quantum)
4. Patreon

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📌 Disclaimer - This episode is for educational and informational purposes only. The views expressed are the personal opinions of the guest and do not necessarily reflect the views of the host or Healthy Mind By Avik™️. We do not intend to harm, defame, or discredit any person, organization, brand, product, country, or profession mentioned. All third-party media remains the property of their respective owners and is used under fair use for informational purposes. By listening, you acknowledge and accept this disclaimer.

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Sana: Welcome, everyone, to Cosmic Confluence Podcast, a space where we explore the edges of lived experience, Systems.

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Sana: And consciousness without rushing to certainty.

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Sana: I am Sana, your host, and today's conversation, listeners, It…

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Sana: It's in a delicate and often polarized space.

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Sana: Healing outside of traditional medical modalities.

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Sana: Now… Hear me out. Many of us have been taught that Healing is something that… Happens to us.

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Sana: Inside hospitals, clinics, or treatment protocols.

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Sana: And while those systems, they do save lives, and they matter deeply.

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Sana: They don't always hold the full complexity of human experience.

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Sana: Listeners, today we are joined by Kim McCarthy and Kelly Haslett, collaborators behind Healing Through the Quantum, and contributors to multiple podcasts that explore how health.

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Sana: Caregiving, systems, and personal agency intersect.

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Sana: Now, as Ms. Kelly is living with the diagnosis label of ALS, and she's currently in the process of reversing her symptoms through evidence-based

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Sana: Informed, integrative, and lifestyle-based approaches.

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Sana: Without rejecting medical care or offering false certainty.

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Sana: And Kim brings a systems-level lens, asking the questions many people feel, but they aren't encouraged to voice.

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Sana: So this is not a conversation, listeners, about miracle cures or rejecting signs. No, it is not. But.

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Sana: It is a conversation about nuance, about agency, about what happens when lived experience falls through the cracks between systems. So let's begin, and Kim and Kelly, welcome to Cosmic Conference, and I'm really, really honored to have both of you here with us.

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Kellie Hazlet: Thank you for having us. Thank you so much.

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Sana: Of course, of course.

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Sana: And to begin with, I mean, this is the question to both of you. When people hear healing outside traditional modalities, now, you know, this has always been the debate, like, you know.

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Sana: There's an ever-going debate between science and spirituality. Sometimes they collide, sometimes they beautifully blend.

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Sana: But then, most of the time it goes, like, you know, to the extremes. And reactions can range from hope to skepticism to outright dismissal as well.

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Sana: So, how do you define healing outside the traditional medical systems without positioning it as, anti-medicine or magical thinking?

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Kellie Hazlet: Perfect question.

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Sana: Hmm.

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Kellie Hazlet: So, I do… I have a extensive medical background, so I don't discount the medical community whatsoever.

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Kellie Hazlet: However, in this particular journey.

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Sana: Hmm.

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Kellie Hazlet: There just isn't any real support through the medical community, so it's really up to me

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Kellie Hazlet: With my… my healing journey, to… to set the precedence.

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Kellie Hazlet: I've used… if… the biggest, I guess the biggest…

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Kellie Hazlet: What's the word I want to use?

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Kellie Hazlet: is my mindset. Like, knowing that healing is possible.

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Kellie Hazlet: knowing that if I have the right team, the right connections, the right research, all of it, the body wants to be in an optimal, balanced condition. It doesn't want to be in this

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Kellie Hazlet: State of weakness.

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Sana: Hmm.

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Kellie Hazlet: So just knowing that that's possible has been a huge kickback, and a really big jump since I've taken control of my

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Kellie Hazlet: My journey, my healing journey.

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Sana: It does, it does.

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Sana: And, Kim?

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Kellie Hazlet: You know, I think that the traditional,

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Kellie Hazlet: medical community is so highly honed in immediate diagnoses and potential prognoses that, that they just forget, or they're not allowed to look outside of those… those parameters or boundaries. And…

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Kellie Hazlet: you know, having come from a traditional background, and then opening up to holistic healing, that's where I find that if the communication is… is just right.

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Kellie Hazlet: And, both of… the practices, holistic versus, and allopathic, can work together in collaboration.

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Kellie Hazlet: Because the… I feel that the traditional

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Kellie Hazlet: path is looking for short-term solutions, and if it's not short-term, then the long-term, easy answer is hospice.

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Kellie Hazlet: And that's not true.

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Sana: Hmm, okay. Now, I actually got a sense of it, because…

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Sana: What I am, and it's kind of my reflection that

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Sana: Healing isn't being framed as, fixing or curing, like this one-stop solution.

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Sana: in a simplistic sense, but as expanding what care actually includes. And, maybe, I mean, you know, the spaces that medicine doesn't

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Sana: often doesn't have time, structure, or incentives to hold. I mean, you know, there are factors like emotional safety, environmental stress, caregiving load, there's personal agency. And they… all of these, they do matter.

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Sana: But then I believe, you know, there are efforts happening at individual level, But then.

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Sana: at the system… systemic level, I think there's still a long way to go ahead.

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Sana: So, and this is to both of you once again, Kelly and Kim, like, where do you see the biggest gap between what patients need and what traditional systems are realistically able to provide? Is it just that, you know, the traditional system is focusing on a quick fix, a quick cure?

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Kellie Hazlet: Yeah, I would definitely second that. I can tell you I'm volunteering for an organization called Healing ALS, and it's one of the only ones that I have found that actually identify and quantify results. So they did a study in 2024,

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Kellie Hazlet: There were 48… I don't particularly like to call myself a patient.

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Sana: But the outside, allopathic World would call me a patient.

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Kellie Hazlet: That did a year's

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Kellie Hazlet: I will take it like a little, they quantified the registry of the, so me as an individual will put all of my information in what I do monthly.

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Sana: What am I doing?

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Kellie Hazlet: taking, what am I eating, when am I exercising, all of that. And they crunch the data, and out of,

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Kellie Hazlet: the 48 people.

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Kellie Hazlet: 60% stayed the same, and 80% improved. So, as a total, there was only, I think, 20% that actually declined, and it was a very significant, small pointage, where if you look at the trajectory of this particular diagnosis, that is not common.

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Kellie Hazlet: So now we've stepped into doing a 1,000-person study to really try to streamline what are people doing to recover from this illness, to reverse the symptoms.

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Kellie Hazlet: And not have the 2-5 year, terminal.

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Kellie Hazlet: diagnosis. So I think that's such a beautiful support system, acknowledging those of us that are outside the system that, aren't participating in the drug trials.

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Kellie Hazlet: That are doing alternative things to track it and see, really, there's got to be commonalities in what's working, because people are getting better.

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Sana: Hmm, and…

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Kellie Hazlet: there's a… and that's worldwide, that's not just in the U.S.

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Sana: Hmm. That is actually good to know. That is good to know, Kenny. Kim, would you like to jump in?

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Kellie Hazlet: I… well, I… I agree with both of your assessments, yours and Kelly's.

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Kellie Hazlet: The allopathic traditional community they…

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Kellie Hazlet: I'm unsure how to do it, other than with these studies.

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Sana: That are coming out.

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Kellie Hazlet: But to communicate to the larger, community that there are alternatives, and there are options, but also, and this is really important, there's hope.

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Kellie Hazlet: And in… While healing through the quantum, having holistic modalities.

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Kellie Hazlet: You can see more of the hope and the progress than if early in the process you're given a hospice designation, then you feel as though you can't… how can you crawl out of that hole?

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Kellie Hazlet: And you can.

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Kellie Hazlet: That the studies are proving it.

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Sana: Hmm.

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Sana: Yeah.

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Sana: And I also believe that, And, and…

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Sana: This is globally, because, you know, I have had multiple conversations with guests.

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Sana: for whom, the Western… and this is not just that I'm… I'm…

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Sana: differentiating between the effectiveness, or putting a particular modality, or a treatment, or maybe a tool at a higher pedestal. It's just that

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Sana: There are different modalities, and they work differently for everyone. There's not just one

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Sana: singular solution working out for everyone. But then, if I believe that, you know, there is a possibility, and there are researchers, there are studies, there are visible, tangible outputs of holistic

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Sana: Not medicine, but holistic modalities working out for people, including medical care, then there is no harm in considering, instead of just dismissing outrightly.

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Kellie Hazlet: Absolutely. Using it, and I think since neuromuscular disease is using a multifaceted approach.

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Sana: Hmm.

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Kellie Hazlet: Healing, because the body is head to toe, inside and out, and using energy as a very powerful frequency modality.

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Sana: Hmm.

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Kellie Hazlet: That's been probably the biggest key for me improving.

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Kellie Hazlet: Is using and employing frequency treatments.

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Sana: Oh.

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Kellie Hazlet: we've seen a significant jump, that now that I've got this balance and I'm not caught in the system.

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Sana: Huh.

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Kellie Hazlet: chasing… I had a huge epiphany when I was at a clinic. Why am I giving my power away? I have the ability to heal.

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Sana: I don't need…

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Kellie Hazlet: go to a clinic or an outside source, it's me. I need a safe, supportive network to.

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Kellie Hazlet: To help, right? To keep me alive. And I am the one who's making the changes. I'm the one who's really working on the emotional baggage.

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Kellie Hazlet: You don't heal emotionally, and you're not healing inside.

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Kellie Hazlet: I think that the outside just takes a lot longer to get to that point.

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Kellie Hazlet: So recognizing that and putting all those puzzle pieces together, I think, is really a key.

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Kellie Hazlet: That's really important to know, that it is a complicated network.

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Sana: If…

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Kellie Hazlet: If you only isolate symptoms and modalities or opportunities. If you look at the body system and physicality as a whole.

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Kellie Hazlet: And how it integrates with itself.

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Kellie Hazlet: Then you can open up to… to more levels of healing.

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Sana: Hmm.

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Sana: Yeah, I agree, I agree, and I think this is powerful, and then limiting as well, because

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Sana: like, you know, and specifically in terms of language, like, because, Kelly, I mean, you currently carry the diagnosis label of ALS, and then

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Sana: also experiencing changes you describe as symptom reversal. I mean, this is definitely a charged topic, like, both emotionally and scientifically. So I think a diagnosis can become

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Sana: The script people feel trapped inside.

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Kellie Hazlet: Not just medically, but then…

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Sana: Psychologically and socially as well, because somehow it becomes like this label, exactly like, you know, you describe it, Kelly.

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Kellie Hazlet: It's, yeah, it's horrific. I spent probably 9 months planning my funeral, and I'm quite young.

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Sana: Whew.

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Kellie Hazlet: very healthy, extremely active, and then to get this kind of a label, I… yeah, at first I took it as base value, thought, okay, it's my time.

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Kellie Hazlet: make the appropriate transition. Then I woke up and said, you know, I… that's just weird. Why would me…

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Kellie Hazlet: all I did was hit my head on some ice, I didn't, like, you know, I had no medical history or issues prior to that.

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Kellie Hazlet: So, yeah, I just had a… he had a huge hiccup mind shift, and said, nope, this is fixable, it's probably going to take some time.

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Kellie Hazlet: But that's okay. I have the time. Time is on my side.

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Sana: That's a huge mindset shift.

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Sana: It's a huge mindset shift, and it's quite a, I should say…

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Sana: I mean, it's kind of hard to describe, because…

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Sana: Even the strongest people can break down in such difficult moments.

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Sana: How… and this is to both of you, but I would like to begin with Kelly. Kelly, how do you navigate sharing your experience responsibly, you know, without creating false hope, but then also without reinforcing hopelessness?

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Kellie Hazlet: So I don't believe in false hope. I don't even feel that that's, something you can identify, because we, just being human, live in a very hopeful environment. It's choice, right? You make a choice. You want to work through this?

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Kellie Hazlet: symptom by symptom, step by step, or you don't. And it's okay if you don't. It's a very tough existence to live in, this kind of…

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Kellie Hazlet: state. I just call it kind of an altered state of consciousness.

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Sana: Because I…

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Kellie Hazlet: I know the perfection is right there, I'm just trying to bring her in and merge her again.

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Sana: Yeah, yeah.

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Sana: Kim, any… anything that you would like to say?

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Kellie Hazlet: Well, Kelly and I align and resonate in every way, so of course I'm… I agree and resonate with everything she's saying. A big… as she said, a big part of it is not giving your power away.

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Sana: Excellent.

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Kellie Hazlet: So once you reclaim your power, and then…

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Kellie Hazlet: I believe it starts in the head. It starts with your focus, your intention, and where your energy is going, because where you perceive, then that's where you're going to receive.

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Kellie Hazlet: And… when you're in a situation that isn't natural, you know, such as having the label of ALS, then

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Kellie Hazlet: you really gotta get in your mind and say, no, this… I am going to… to come out of this and…

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Kellie Hazlet: the way you judge it is through much smaller levels of success, such as moving a hand, or standing for 10 minutes versus 5 or more. So, you really need to get into the mindset of it.

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Kellie Hazlet: And know where your energy and perception is, so that then you can receive that healing.

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Sana: Hmm. Hmm.

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Kellie Hazlet: Have a good cheerleader.

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Sana: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And one thing that, you know, I really kind of connect with you, Kim on this, that, you know, it doesn't have to be, like, this huge shift.

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Sana: It can be as small as, okay, 5 minutes or 10 minutes of standing, maybe a gentle, a very gradual improvement or gradual change.

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Sana: I mean, that's the.

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Kellie Hazlet: Always noted.

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Sana: Yes, yeah, yeah. And I think that's… that's where many, many listeners feel that, oh my goodness, okay, if you're not… if you're…

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Sana: telling me, or if I see that, okay, medical systems are not helping in this, and maybe holistic, holistically I can… I can seek, solutions, then it has to be very, very visible. No. It will take its own time, but then, yes.

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Sana: It's visible, but then it's gradual. And,

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Sana: Moving on, Kim, I would like to come to you, because your work…

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Sana: It consistently zooms out to systems, like there's healthcare, housing, employment, caregiving structures. From your perspective,

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Sana: how do… how do institutional systems, I mean, unintentionally make healing harder, even when they would be genuinely well-intentioned? I mean, on paper, it all looks like, you know, it's put in the good thought.

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Kellie Hazlet: Right,

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Kellie Hazlet: So, I think that's part of a bigger issue, but I'm only going to mention one variable that comes to mind, but really, they're all interconnected. And that would be, say, at least for us, the American healthcare system with regard to insurance.

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Kellie Hazlet: Insurance allows and approves what they deem to be,

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Kellie Hazlet: appropriate for your healing process. And if they don't feel that, it is part of that process, either you have to go through a long and arduous,

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Kellie Hazlet: appeal process, or accept it and move on. And that's just… that's hard enough when you're in a body that is struggling to get back to, its homeostasis.

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Sana: So when you have the support of.

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Kellie Hazlet: In our situation, having the support of alternative modalities and the science behind why you should have whole body healing, holistically.

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Kellie Hazlet: Then that's where you see the great divide between

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Kellie Hazlet: In this example, insurance, healthcare, and healing.

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Kellie Hazlet: Oftentimes, the traditional insurance pathway for American healthcare is preventive.

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Kellie Hazlet: From healing.

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Sana: Yeah, yeah.

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Sana: I mean, sometimes it really feels like it's… I mean, I… Ridiculous.

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Kellie Hazlet: Right, and that's… so that's where we, Kelly and I are involved with other organizations.

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Sana: Huh.

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Kellie Hazlet: Telling them that there are different ways that you can achieve healing and, different success rates.

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Kellie Hazlet: But you do have to step into the holistic world, outside of the traditional healthcare and insurance.

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Kellie Hazlet: paradigm.

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Sana: Mmm.

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Sana: And, to both of you, Kim and Kerry, do you believe that, especially with respect to insurance, because

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Sana: I think, this is not only for, the US, but… but… in…

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Sana: India as well, I mean, the medical systems, I mean.

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Sana: Insurance is one of the hottest and one of the most challenging

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Sana: Aspect of, the… especially the healthcare system, that, you know, people

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Sana: Intentionally or unintentionally planned or unplanned, they have to deal with it.

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Sana: Do you believe that there is a possibility of change in the way it is perceived?

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Sana: Or it is… or maybe the insurance world would accept this?

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Kellie Hazlet: I mean, that's our hope. That's why we launched this awesome person study, to show, I mean.

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Kellie Hazlet: So, coming from a medical background, ALS is probably one of the worst diagnoses you can receive.

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Kellie Hazlet: I mean, it beats cancer, hands down. And so by flipping the paradigm and letting the medical community and the insurance community know that

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Kellie Hazlet: I mean, in the big picture, it's treatable. All they have to do is remove the terminal and say it's a chronic condition, no different than Parkinson's.

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Kellie Hazlet: Alzheimer's, it all works in the same brain pattern, it just affects different areas. Mine is motor neuron.

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Kellie Hazlet: By doing that and showing that with… through this study at the end of this year, we'll… hopefully we'll have a really large amount of data saying if we streamline holistic integration with medicine, we will push the

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Kellie Hazlet: Will make a big impact on the insurance industry, and the money-making industry, and the medical.

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Kellie Hazlet: That's why we're so, you know, in tune to really staying… staying the… staying the cause, running that ship.

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Kellie Hazlet: Keeping it streamlined.

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Sana: I really appreciate that, Kelly. Kim, anything that you would like to add into it?

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Kellie Hazlet: I… I agree, I concur. Like I said, Kelly and I…

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Kellie Hazlet: We travel the same path, along our belief systems.

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Sana: And…

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Kellie Hazlet: Oh.

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Kellie Hazlet: I think a key part of it is being open. A lot of people, it's cost prohibitive to go outside of the insurance and healthcare.

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Sana: Hmm.

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Kellie Hazlet: And so when it's coming out of pocket, then sometimes that can prevent… oftentimes, that can prevent moving forward in the healing process. But as we get more of this information out there, then it becomes easier to go within and start that process of healing. And getting covered

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Kellie Hazlet: Modalities that are.

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Kellie Hazlet: considered deemed holistic would be.

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Sana: Oh my god.

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Kellie Hazlet: covered.

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Kellie Hazlet: Making it more accessible for patients and clients.

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Sana: I hope so, I hope so, I think that…

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Sana: That has to be a major, major overhaul.

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Sana: And I'm still bullish on that, and of course, I mean, people like you, Kevin Kelly,

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Sana: carrying forward this movement, I hope so, that One day, it…

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Sana: gets considered, and at least, you know, there is the first step taken to be at least considered, because that itself would be a huge, huge change. But… Yeah, it would. Yeah, yeah.

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Sana: And also, before we wrap up, I think this is also very, very

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Sana: crucial question, specifically with respect to non-traditional healing paths, and to both of you, once again, the question. So, one critique of it is that, you know, they rely too heavily

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Sana: Too heavily, either or on anecdotes, or intuition.

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Sana: So, how do you personally discern between what is evidence-informed, what is experiential.

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Sana: And what might simply be visual thinking.

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Kellie Hazlet: I truly trust… and I'll tell you, it's an evolution, because I've been at this 4 years now, 4 years since my head injury.

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Kellie Hazlet: It's intuition.

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Kellie Hazlet: I don't… if my… if I feel inside, this is the right…

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Kellie Hazlet: step for today. I mean, I whittle it down to every hour of the day, then I trust it, and I don't question it. I don't have to prove anything to anybody. And the study that I'm in, I just put everything in there, and that's what I did, and this is what we're gonna do.

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Kellie Hazlet: I think that's huge, and meditation has been…

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Kellie Hazlet: a lifesaver, so I can stay in that space and really get those internal answers.

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Kellie Hazlet: Oh, my.

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Kellie Hazlet: that's, you know, but that's particular to me. I've had a lot of trauma in my life, so I think I've… my body has just learned to trust what's inside.

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Sana: Yeah.

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Sana: And Kim?

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Kellie Hazlet: Yeah, internally, as always, go to your source first, but you also need to get acquainted with your source, and most people…

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Kellie Hazlet: have been conditioned against that, and that's what we're normalizing in our lives and within our community, that you must go inside and

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Kellie Hazlet: what is your journey, and what is your truth? And through that, then that's when you start to get your perception, for then you can receive.

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Kellie Hazlet: You know, whatever the healing, and in what way.

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Kellie Hazlet: So, that's… That's how I move forward.

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Sana: That's actually good and very powerful to know, because

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Sana: here is this refusal to collapse complexity into either trust science only or trust yourself only. But then, once again,

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Sana: like, just out of responsibility. And, you know, Kim and Kelly, there are… and this is across the globe, not just, one specific country, but then sometimes, you know, it's very unfortunate to hear sometimes that

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Sana: People… There are people who can take advantage of others' vulnerability.

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Sana: or, you know, that hopelessness, or this, expectation, okay, I got… I got rejected by the systems, or maybe I decided to get out of the system and look out for alternate options or, holistic modalities.

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Sana: And this is…

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Sana: the best possible solution I can see right now. But then, the intention behind that is completely different.

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Sana: So are there any warning signs or, any, any, you know, quote-unquote red flags that listeners should watch for when exploring integrative or alternative approaches, you know, especially when they are vulnerable?

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Kellie Hazlet: Yeah, I would absolutely, because I have tried a lot of different modalities.

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Sana: Oh, thank goodness.

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Kellie Hazlet: Trusting that just because somebody says it's going to work, or it works for them, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for me.

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Kellie Hazlet: And I've been… Pretty open to a wide gamut of alternative healing.

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Sana: Okay.

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Kellie Hazlet: So I know, you know, if I do something, and I accept something, and try something, and I don't… it doesn't resonate, like, I feel bad, then I stop.

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Kellie Hazlet: So be… give yourself permission to go, it wasn't a mistake, nothing ventured, nothing gained, is my philosophy. But you have to be very soft and ginger when you're dealing with neuromuscular.

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Kellie Hazlet: Because you're very… you're just… you're a fragile.

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Kellie Hazlet: I feel like the nervous system is just in this little fragile box, and tip it the wrong way, and you'll crack it, so you…

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Kellie Hazlet: be very careful. And learning that patience, that's been a huge thing, because I'm, like, AAA personality, four degrees, worked a million jobs, worked, traveled the world, and now I'm, like.

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Kellie Hazlet: Terry?

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Kellie Hazlet: boy, does that force you to stop and re-evaluate existence, and why did I always have to put the go, go, go as a priority rather than the stillness? Because within stillness is healing. I don't have to do anything, and I'm healing.

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Sana: Hmm.

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Kellie Hazlet: I'd learned that. Believe me, it wasn't easy.

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Sana: I understand that, Kelly, I understand.

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Sana: And before we wrap up, Kim, anything that you would like to add on before we conclude?

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Kellie Hazlet: I'm just so grateful for this opportunity to talk about healing through the quantum and holistic modalities, because there… there's… I like to use the word hope. There's always.

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Sana: Always hope.

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Sana: Yeah, fairness, fairness.

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Sana: And, of course, if our listeners, they would like to connect with both of you, Kim and Kelly, maybe they have their own experiences, their thoughts, or they would like to seek help or wisdom from you, how they can connect with you.

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Kellie Hazlet: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that last bit.

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Sana: how they can connect with you, with both of you.

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Kellie Hazlet: Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. It… so our email is jumpinto I-N-T-O The Pipeline Strategies

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Kellie Hazlet: And of course, thepipelineStrategies.com, its website, and our social media on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, is where the podcast, Healing Through the Quantum, is stationed, and then we also have Patreon.

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Sana: Awesome, that's great. And listeners, I'm going to mention all the links in the show notes, so just refer to them, attached, along with this episode. And, I believe it's safe to say here, listeners, that this conversation with Kim and Kelly reminds us

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Sana: That healing isn't a destination, it is a relationship.

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Sana: with our body, With systems that both help and fail us, with hope.

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Sana: as Kim said, that doesn't demand certainty. So thank you, Kim. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you for bringing this up, because, you know, you offered something… something, you know, quieter.

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Sana: like, a permission to ask better questions, to have our agency, to not give power to anyone else, but gain it back to us. So thank you so much to both of you.

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Kellie Hazlet: Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Have a blessed day.

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Sana: Thank you, and thank you to all of our listeners for holding space for complexity. Until next time, this is Cosmic Confluence, and I will catch you in the next episode. Till then, take care.