Unraveling the Enigma of complexity of AI Team & its UX," featuring , Andrew Brough (PUT TITLE) of IOTA. Join us as we delve into the fascinating world of AI, team dynamics, and user experience with Andrew, who is the Founder and Director of Digital Zen.

In this episode, Andrew takes us on a unique journey, unraveling the complex aspects of AI team dynamics and the critical role of user experience. From demystifying the inner workings of AI teams to exploring how they intersect with user-centric design principles, Andrew offers invaluable insights and practical tips. If you're using AI in your Web3 soultion you want to tune in.

Get ready to expand your knowledge and gain inspiration as we demystify the complexity of AI team dynamics and its profound influence on user experience.

Digital Zen - Demystifying the Complexity of AI Team & its UX

Participants:

• Jason Fernandes (Co-founder of AdLunam)

• Andrew Brough (Founder and Director of Digital Zen)

00:22

JP

Welcome to this episode of Diving into Crypto. This is JP from AdLunam Inc. bringing you everything about Web3 on the show. Today we have a guest who's going to walk us through deepness to find the complexity of AI and its UX. Now, I know that sounds like a mouthful, but in the precursor to this episode, we've had a fantastic conversation. And I kid you not, there's so much in store that our speaker will share about his journey. What is this show about? This show is brought to you by AdLunam, the all in one Web3 investment ecosystem empowering early stage startups from tokenomics to community growth. We see funding to IDO launches, to our unique Engage to Earn platform.

01:05

JP

We are transforming the way that investors experience the world of Web3 and the dynamic NFTs all through our monthly programs, which we have, like the podcasts, as well as a Web3 pitch arena where we bring this bridge the gap between innovative startups and venture capital. That being said, ladies and gentlemen, a few announcements before we begin. In case we do get cut off. Come back to AdLunam Inc. And you will have a link that will lead you back into the show, which we will start again during this particular episode. If you have any questions, remember that towards the end of the program, we'll open it up to QnA session with the audience, if we have time. If not, you can always send in the questions that you have, or if something strikes you as interesting, you can leave a comment in the tweet.

01:54

JP

You could even ask that question to the speaker and we'll try to get it answered for you on the show, if not later. Views expressed on this program belong to that of the speaker and is meant for education purposes only, not to be construed as financial advice. Right? So that being said, ladies and gentlemen, it gives me great pleasure to introduce very briefly our guest. I'm going to let him explain his journey, explain what got him here. But he's a visionary user experience specialist, which is something very rare. And we all spend so much time on our devices trying to navigate software, platforms, anything electronic. And here's a gentleman who has a multitude of experience, which he's going to share with us today. He does this with the future of Web3 projects that he's worked very closely with, including a stint with IOTA. And as you know, IOTA has worked with major brands like Jaguar and so on.

02:52

JP

He's been perfecting this craft and has led design innovation for major brands and pioneered products in the frontier tech. But without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, let's put our hands together and welcome to the stage Andrew Brough. Andrew, this floor is yours. Welcome.

03:09

Andrew

JP, Thank you so much. What an awesome intro. Yeah, I think we should just touch upon some really interesting areas today. I mean, a lot of us are coming from the crypto and blockchain aspect and that's where my deep passion lies. I also think that we're seeing a lot of progress, rapid progress with AI. And one of the things that we can also touch upon is how those two are working against and with one another. And I think that's going to be a key area where we move into the future. So I'd love touch upon that about myself. Basically, I've been working as a product solver for about 15 years or so, and that's meant working in agency for some great brands and then worked my way up into more of a leadership and strategy side of things, but always taking that user centered perspective to things.

03:57

Andrew

And I started to see really data heavy ways of designing products, right? And inherently they're not joys to use because they're difficult to navigate. Immediately you're overfaced with stuff. And of course, this is what we saw in the early days of crypto and it's improving quite a lot. But my job really is to come here and try and make sense of these and then translate those wonderful, amazing technologies into something that are more usable and friendly and meaningful for people. And that's my mission, really. So, yes, I've worked with some great brands in the past and now I'm consulting with companies. I've worked with IOTA Foundation. I was with IOTA Foundation for about five years and built up a UX and Product thinking team within the IOTA Foundation. That was a wonderful experience and really a dream opportunity for me to kind of flex my muscles, if you like, and thinking power and start to solve some really big problems.

04:54

Andrew

And I'm still supporting various projects around the IOTA ecosystem. I'm working with various things as well. Alongside that, I'm working with a stealth wallet startup and I'm also working with an identity team. So it's really interesting to work in those different fields. And every day is different, really. So hopefully I can give a few insights into those worlds and we can have some great discussion around the possibilities of the technology, where we think it's going and what we can do with it, and just get everyone excited about where this is going, but also thinking around how we can use this in the right way. Because I think if this is going to be a lasting technology that's meaningful for people, we need to be very cognizant and aware of how we use it for good rather than in negative ways. So, again, we'll dive into that a little bit more.

05:39

Andrew

But that's a brief intro from me. So yeah, hopefully that gives everyone a sense of where I'm coming from.

05:46

JP

Excellent. So Andrew, the question actually, I have known a lot of us begin this journey into a dimension where we are able to find ourselves, find an expression through the work that we do, and find an area of excellence, right? But I'm always curious to find out, and so are our listeners. We're always curious to find out. What was that turning point for you that you decided, hey, web3 is the space to be?

06:12

Andrew

07:05

Andrew

07:56

Andrew

And of course, these teams had molded their ideas a little bit more, and they were projecting them. They built the websites and kind of they had the white papers and they were underway. So that's when I first became aware of crypto and blockchain. Of course, web3 as a whole hadn't developed at that point, and that started to come out a little bit more with the possibilities of ownership over things, whether it be various assets, NFTs and things like that really ethereum started that big ball rolling. And of course, then we started looking at possibilities around what web3 meant and how it could tie into crypto blockchain and this whole ecosystem, it's still relatively new and of course it had a massive hype cycle, but I think all of the things surrounding it's just in its fledgling years as such. So we still got a lot to go and I'm really excited about where that's going to lead us.

08:49

Andrew

So that was really my first initiation into Web3 and crypto, the very early days. And I'm still just as excited. I think despite all of the ups and downs, I still see a huge amount of possibility and loads of things to be solved. And that's why I'm here.

09:07

JP

Indeed. And it is, of course, exciting times ahead. Despite all that's happening, the highs, lows for those of us that have been through this journey for a while now, we begin to understand that just part of what the industry is all about. Right? And it's interesting how this journey weaves its way from one point to another through this. I understand that you've also begun Digital Zen. Right? Tell us a little about Digital Zen. What is its focus, what does it do? A little about what it brings to the Web3 industry.

09:48

Andrew

Yeah, I'd be delighted to. So really, Digital Zen is my consulting arm and that's just a follow on from the work I was doing with the IOTA Foundation. And the purpose is to take this advanced technology to consumers working with teams or working with startups or corporates across the board. I work with all sorts of individuals and larger groups and basically looking at how we can solve problems within their vertical. So that would be their particular industries and picking that apart to understand what is the problem space. So what is there that can be solved and then what is the solution space. And being very collaborative around that, because what tends to happen is I come in with a very technological and user centered perspective and then I work with these domain experts to then collaborate and understanding how we can then mold something together because they won't necessarily have the understanding about the technology or necessarily always the users.

10:47

Andrew

They might understand their customers, but not necessarily how they might interact with their product. So I come in and then bring that domain expertise around the technology and the actual usability and the user. And then what we do is we go through a process of then ideating around these problem and solution spaces and then we quite often then go on and produce a proof of concept to then build out something that demonstrates initial value. So we don't necessarily go all in on producing a huge startup. It's just to test the water and see what's possible. And this could be anywhere from industrial applications in terms of thinking around global trade. It could be something around carbon reporting, it could be identity solutions, it could also be DeFi, it could be wallets. It's anything. And it's a wonderful job to have, because it means that, as I said before, every day is different.

11:43

Andrew

And you get to solve new challenges, but you use the same principles and same processes, and you bring their customer and their users to the center of what you're thinking. And it's not always a perfect place to work in because quite often you want to do things that you can't because the technology won't allow it yet. But every time you're sort of trying to solve those little challenges for that end user and become their advocate and think around how they can make it more delightful and better, because that just gives you better fit, better engagement, and in terms of the product market, fit looking at how this solves real problems that are going to have value. So that's what Digital Zen does. And we did some of that within the IOTA Foundation. The IOTA Foundation is going more into research and protocol development mode now.

12:29

Andrew

So really, it's just sort of taking that skill and then building it out and then offering this to the world. And even looking at how web2 companies can start to look at this technology and bringing them into this so that they can benefit and their customers can be those who don't necessarily want to interact with web3 technology. So it's bridging that divide between Web2, web3, and mainstream adoption.

12:54

JP

Actually, it's interesting that you mentioned that because adoption is really what is one of the core I wouldn't call it a problem. It's more of a challenge, right. The transition from Web2 to Web3, and that becoming a more accepted standard across the planet, the same way that the Internet first made its penetration across the world and It game changed how information and communications, both these sectors were impacted. Now you're in a unique position being working with these teams. So I have a few questions, and the first one I think that comes up is how will it take the mainstream adoption of Web3? How much more education is needed with companies to be able to then drive that down to their communities? Is it going to need maybe a better user experience to make the transition easier? Or is there something that we should be thinking of to bridge that gap?

14:10

Andrew

Yeah, I mean, this is the eternal question that we all face, delivering products in Web3. How do we get more users that weren't necessarily interested in this before? My view is that we kind of have this a little bit back to front and it's easy to say that it's more difficult to solve that. And what I mean by that is that we're asking users who aren't interested to come into Web3 and the technology surrounding Web3 and then elevate themselves to the same place that we are, in our understanding, as quickly as possible. And it works to a certain extent, but it needs someone to have motivation and to be driven to do that. And quite often it's because they see a financial opportunity, or they might be motivated because they see a great cause behind something, or they like the community aspect in terms of DAOs.

14:59

Andrew

And so they'll put the effort in, but it does require effort. And so we're saying basically, come to us. We've got something great here. And actually the way that we get to the next epoch of adoption, the next milestone, is where we start to integrate things that are the great fundamentals of Web3, but into everyone's daily habits. So they don't even realize necessarily that they're using Web3. It's augmented into stuff that they're doing already. And I'll give an example of what I mean by this, right? In terms of the retail space and the way that works with the way that you go out and you interact with brands. There's so much opportunity for brands to leverage assets to then incentivize their customers, and it doesn't necessarily mean launching their own token, which then is out in the market and then creates value. In that sense, it's actually looking at simpler things like stablecoins.

15:56

Andrew

And as regulations are coming in, particularly where I'm based in the UK, we're going to see a lot more interest around this because mainstream users can understand stablecoin value. They can understand a digital version of something else or something that is pegged to something that they understand. So in my case, it's sterling or the pound. And that doesn't require another level of comprehension for them to then interact with these technologies. So what that means is that once you get them into this digital world, which is the stablecoin world, you can do all sorts of really interesting things with that, which then deepens their brand engagement. And so, yes, it's going to require them to have a wallet and it's probably going to be a custodial wallet. So it might be that you don't have sovereignty over that finance entirely, but it does mean that you're able to get the benefits of pooling value, for example, where you can actually act as a community behind a token and pull that value to then get more function out of it, more value out of that.

17:02

Andrew

And that's really exciting. That's where I see things are going to develop really quickly and that's where it's going to start to get over to mainstream. And all of a sudden they're going to get an understanding of the fundamentals of things like DeFi of ownership assets. It's going to get really exciting, it's going to get really noisy, but it's going to get really exciting. So that's an area where I'm very focused on how we can then flip it on its head and take this technology to the mainstream rather than the other way around.

17:33

JP

Well, it's interesting you mentioned that because the more people that you speak to about Web3. And when we share with them the concept of ownership, we share with them literally an alternative financial system. In a sense, one of the things to get them on boarded is the fact that they have to go through setting up a wallet. Right? And I know that it's a question that I've realized that a lot of people have been trying to grapple with. How exactly that's done. Do you see I know I'm being a bit cheeky here, but do you see that user experience becoming easier in any way to facilitate global adoption if for nothing else?

18:16

Andrew

Yeah, I mean, what a great question, because I think this is something that I've mulled over many times trying to come to an internal alignment with this. Because there are ways that you can streamline wallet onboarding and usually they take shortcuts at the expense of security or sovereignty, right? So if you start to integrate single sign on to a wallet experience, you're bringing in elements of centralization, but it speeds up that sign on. If you then start to produce wallets that actually take care of your keys for you, then ultimately you're not having to educate the user around taking care of that ownership and that level of secrecy that's required. And that is the fundamental discussion that needs to take place. What level of compromise are we willing to accept to then onboard people that aren't interested in self-sovereignty of value or information? Will they ever accept that?

19:18

Andrew

And we don't know yet. We can't answer that. But are there benefits to be had? Even if perhaps we do onboard people to a wallet that perhaps does have slightly lower security or perhaps does take care of the keys for these users? Because all of a sudden they have more fluidity with their finance. And as long as you trust that company, then they're still getting most of the benefits. Now, I don't have a strong opinion as to where I feel that should be. I believe in decentralization, but I'm also a pragmatist and I believe that we haven't reached that point and we haven't managed to solve a lot of the problems that come with decentralization. We've kind of smoothed over those rough bits, but we haven't removed all of the bumps. So we're working on it. I'm working on it every day and it is a challenge.

20:07

Andrew

And I haven't gone straight for any shortcuts yet. And I see some teams going for the shortcuts and for most end users they're like, hey, great, this is better than my last previous experience, my last best experience, because I can just use a single sign on, but actually it's not as secure. So who's winning there? Well, the end user is, so you have to be real about that and you have to find ways to kind of tread a middle ground and I think that's still something we need to work out and we're plowing through. So maybe I haven't taken a strong line on that, but I think that there are different ways you can solve it and for different use cases and for different end users. And we'll apply the best approach to kind of get there really, because the goal is essentially to get people into better systems that are fairer systems and that's where we need to get to above all.

20:58

JP

Enough. You're right in so many ways, Andrew, when it comes to this aspect of adoption, the shortcut method is of course something that in some way it also is the basis of a user experience, right? That is, the easier that I can change that behavior, the more adoption or the easier somebody gets on boarded onto whatever it is that I can offer them. And yet at the same time, the long term repercussion of those actions or what could be the potential outcome, vis - a -vis risk, what is sustainable over a long term gets avoided. It is an interesting point, it is an interesting solution to solve. But yeah, maybe a question that we dive into at a different time. So, as you've said, you work with a lot of teams and right now I know that a large segment of the focus for you is with AI and coupling that with UX.

22:02

JP

Tell us a little first about your, I wouldn't say impression, but let me see, I'm grappling to find the word here. Your experience with AI, for example, when did it start? Why does it become an area of interest? And then let's dive a little deeper into what we can draw out of that experience. Because everybody is associating AI today with, for example, ChatGPT, right? I mean, with the exception of developer community that knows what it actually is. But for regular users, that's the association. So the first thing about AI being so fascinating, how does that start? How did that start for you rather?

22:42

Andrew

Right. And again, AI is one of those things that's relatively new. So again it comes along and you're looking at it and assessing it and you're going, okay, it's been talked about in academia for many years and of course it's now come to fruition and reality in terms of what is possible with large language models in terms of ChatGPT and those types of things. So for me the really interesting thing is and my AHA moment was of course, using Chat GPT-3 and then realizing, okay, this is real now, this actually has a lot of value augmenting my daily habits and what I'm doing. Now, the immediate question I had was, whoa, okay, how are we going to realize what is genuine human behavior and what is not? Either through content creation or ideation or this abundance of media that comes out of AI. And this is the fundamental thing that problem solvers and product thinkers like myself are now starting to then take into account and start working with the brilliant minds that have been behind the current crop of AI or those who have spent many years in academia.

24:04

Andrew

25:08

Andrew

So where we are now is that AI then is accelerating that even further. And in terms of what is deepfakes and genuine media and so on, this is the type of content that's going to be easier and easier to create, even by you and I. If we just want to do a meme, or if we actually have a more serious intention that might not be for the benefit of all. And where Blockchain comes in and where we need to solve this is ultimately, how do we then give you and I or regular Joe's or the average user a sense of reality, of what is real, what is truth, and what is not, so that their digital worlds are not distorted. And this is the big thing that we need to solve. This is kind of what WorldCoin is aiming to do. I'm not necessarily a big fan of everything that they've done, but they're trying to solve that problem.

26:02

Andrew

Of course they're tied to Sam Mortman and they're linked together. So he's obviously seeing this problem himself and then trying to provide a solution for it. And this is this idea of proof of humanity. So if you're seeing content or if you're seeing interactions online, you can get a sense of whether that's a real person or a bot, whether that content or the community around that is also real or not. And this proof of humanity, what it needs to really provide is a sense that, okay, I can see someone's got an opinion and that's a real person's opinion. Or I can see that there's some content here that's a real person's content. And this is something we have to work out in order for us in 5, 10 years time to feel stable in our digital worlds. If we don't solve it, then of course it's going to be very difficult for us to feel comfortable with a lot of the things that we're interacting with.

26:59

Andrew

And how do we make that easy? Well, that's where we come in. In terms of the product solutions, in terms of being able to simply provide a verified tick or perhaps start thinking about reputation for media or for companies, not necessarily individuals. That starts to get a bit scary. But where you have to deal with public figures or where you have to deal with those who have a position of responsibility actually then starting to have reputations tied to their actions, which is where you can start to bring in self-sovereign identity. And identity is another big topic and it's going to make lots of our lives very easy. And some people don't necessarily like this digitizing of identity, but what is required is this proof of humanity that effectively comes from this fundamental. So we need to tread this ground and kind of get to a point where everyone's happy with their digital lives and their digital worlds.

27:53

Andrew

Worlds where they're satisfied that the digital identity is actually helping overall. And that's my job, really, to figure that out with some other clever people and other people working in different areas of the space and lots of people are working on it at the moment. But what I would say is having discussions and conversations around identity where it's not necessarily all bad and actually it can provide some sense of humanity behind our interactions and what we're doing online. I think we need to be honest and look at the way that AI is going to rapidly change things for us and then find solutions for that as quickly as possible so that people can feel settled and comfortable with how they're engaging with the internet.

28:37

JP

Well, yeah, Andrew, I think there is something to dive deeper into here. For a lot of us, there's an ease of using tools or online platforms that have an AI system that is built in.

28:52

Andrew

Right?

28:53

JP

So we're talking ChatGPT-4, which had huge popularity, and then sometimes we tend to forget what leads up to these particular points when we're talking about ChatGPT-4, before which you had Sarah, before which you had the Robo dog, in a way, and then, of course, the Matrix. And you want to go far back as the terminator in Skynet. That works fine as well. Right. On a particular level, I think that a lot of us tend to see what is new, forgetting what may be old. But I truly believe that in terms of interacting with AI, it becomes easier in so many ways for adoption, if there is this base utility like you have in ChatGPT-4, for example, I'm not advocating it's just that it's a good example. Right. And then when you talk about identity with the examples that you've given, which can go from small scale to large election influencing.

30:07

JP

False media making power at some point, I'm not even going to say draw the line, because that's a different outlook. But how are we moving as an industry towards finding out those differences? Because you're in a unique position to answer that. Having worked with so many teams that you have, especially where the mix between AI and UX is extremely important. Right. It's at the forefront of what you're seeing. And you've worked with multiple teams here. So where is the industry going with this, in your opinion, in terms of Blockchain and AI?

30:50

Andrew

Well, let me answer that one because I think we're very early days and if you listen to some thought leaders in the space, they're really just figuring this out as well. There are lots of theories about how we can do it, but not many solutions. So we need to keep talking about this and discussing it. We also need to start doing but for those solutions to come about, there are many layers that need to be solved. And so what I think will come first is really the separation and strength of AI and also Web3, but they won't really converge for some time because it needs quite a lot of infrastructure for that to happen. And I think it can happen and it can happen relatively quickly, but we're not there yet. Like, for example, self-sovereign identity and ZK proofs. These types of things are really just very early days and haven't been rolled out in any significant way.

31:44

Andrew

And the question is who's going to roll these out and how are they going to be interoperable and how are they going to work on the Internet and how are they going to be meaningful and usable to people? And it needs to win hearts and minds as well. And I think people have concerns around this in terms of identity and how this is going to be used, rightly or wrongly, but those individuals need to see the value in it. And that value may not come until there's a crisis where people actually start to look up and take notice of the way that things have changed. So there needs to be a bit of a process that happens there. And all that time we're developing the technology and we're looking at how this can be used and of course, there's the social aspect to it that we're looking at.

32:28

Andrew

So I think this just needs to play out. Where can identity come in? Well, this is something that IOTA does quite well. We were doing various things in the past. I'm working with the team at the moment and there's definitely going to be some news on that front in terms of what's happening there, in terms of how we can use SSID and identity as a counterweight to AI. So, in other words, to create this source of truth, well, we need to start onboarding on a mass level that will happen over time. I suspect that it will happen in a commercial sense, but where's the commercial value to providing trust? Well, most commercial decisions are driven in a centralized manner. So again, it doesn't necessarily decentralized identity where it's ownership of we have ownership over identity and our credentials that isn't necessarily on some corporate top agenda.

33:27

Andrew

So it needs to be something that we want as society as well as something that provides value for corporations. And with AI, that's just going to go it's a steam train at the moment. There are lots and lots of different aspects to it, whether it be data models, whether it be integration into our everyday products. I mean, we've probably used it in various things already outside of ChatGPT where it can just augment our daily lives. Right. So if you've used Notion or if you've used documents or WordPress documents, those types of things, quite often we'll get maybe a modern version of clippy popping up but we'll get something where it will suggest things for us and make it easier to then craft our language. These types of things where it's very useful. It's a very different and somewhat innocent side to it where I don't see many issues.

34:23

Andrew

But really this data aspect where the data is then used, I think this is where the truth needs to come in and of course, the identity will tie into that and it will be driven by a need. So how long that will take, I think it will play out over the next five years and then we'll see solid solutions over the preceding years after that.

34:47

JP

It's interesting when you mentioned it in exactly that form and I think that we often forget that AI has a huge significance through its background tech. In many ways it was always spared and now it's sort of decoupled in a way, it really is machine learning. It's that particular aspect that may make it easier for adoption when we talk about machine learning as opposed to an artificial intelligence altogether. Intelligence being almost akin to an artificial consciousness. Right, right. It's interesting what's coming out of this conversation and it makes me want to question a few things more. So one of the thoughts or one of the trains of thought that pop up is in terms of industry innovation, say about five years from now, where do you see AI being more integrated into things that we do? And again, the utility of SSID, but first, just for the mass users out there, AI being integrated into a lot more things that we're using on a day to day basis.

36:11

JP

What do you think?

36:13

Andrew

Well, I think anywhere where we can automate our lives, I think it will become much more integrated. So really, rather than thinking of it as AI, we think about automation. What is there that we can automate that requires less of our thinking and our energy so that we can focus on other things that we want to do. And of course the world is ripe for us to do that. And we've been automating our lives for hundreds, thousands of years, tens of thousands of years even. So it will continue, and it will continue at an even faster pace. And really the possibilities are endless there. I mean, you look around the world at you and you think about the manual processes that you do each day, whether it's a digital world or whatever, and what is there that can be automated and managed for you eventually?

37:00

Andrew

I think that ultimately you will have AI that really grows with you and ultimately understands you, but then again, you then have to have that secured by blockchain. So I think that's quite a significant future for us where let's say, for example, you have almost like an AI from birth, where it's a bit science fiction, but it grows with you and it learns with you. And that's the model that it's trained on and that brings in things where it ultimately understands you completely. But then you have to secure that information and that data somehow, because imagine if that got into the wrong hands and it would be quite disastrous. And the only real thing that can secure that is going to be blockchain and crypto. And that's kind of where I see it getting to eventually. Obviously, people have choice as to whether they want to let that into their lives and to what degree, but it's going to know you inherently, and it will be on a very personal level where it can support you and help you with everything that you do.

38:00

Andrew

Because it knows almost what you're thinking before you do or what your habits are before you do. And I'll leave that up to the very smart academics working in that field. But my job will be to obviously understand how do we interface with this, how do we use it, how is it meaningful and useful for us, where do we put the limits on this in terms of how people would be using it in that sense? So that would be the big thinking behind AI, I would say I don't know how long it would take to play out, but I don't think it's that far away. Again, it's going to accelerate quite rapidly and we're going to see huge changes over the next ten to 20 years for sure. It wouldn't surprise me if it starts coming in the next ten or so years. That's going to require some degree of acceptance, but I think we're coming around to accepting that quite quickly in terms of the products that we use.

38:50

Andrew

Well, I'm seeing lots and lots of software which are starting to integrate.

38:53

JP

It are game changes in so many ways, right? Yeah. Okay, so pivoting a little from this particular part. We spoke about this from an AI point of view, from a UX point of view, a blockchain point of view. I want to come back to the identity part of how this is going to play out. Where do you see the SSID and your digital identity being getting more mass adoption over the next five years?

39:28

Andrew

Yeah, so I think if we look at Web3, then we have to look at elements that require a sense of a user or an individual or humanity behind it. So let's say, for example, governance. Right now, the way that governance works generally at the moment is that it's not necessarily one user, one vote. It just depends on how much value you hold within that network. And so that isn't really I mean, it works in a sense, and I think that's fine for anyone who holds a lot of value, but it doesn't necessarily represent those who hold an actual personal stake in it when it comes to the energy they put into a project. You could be someone that you don't necessarily have a lot of value behind you, but you've helped that project from the ground up. You weren't necessarily one of the founding team, but you've spent your evenings and weekends trying to get that project off the ground and devoting your time to it.

40:28

Andrew

But then when it comes to voting on governance, you don't necessarily have as big a vote as someone who's a whale that's just decided that they like the project or that they see a financial gain in it. Right. So we need to improve that. And I think that's somewhere where identity can definitely come in and help that any areas around governance and voting I think are going to be really important, and that can also be true for real life. Right, so you imagine that in your local area when you go to the ballot box, that actually, again, you'll be secure in how you vote because it will be a digital hash of your identity that is essentially representing that vote. So I think that is going to provide more security. If you go and vote these days in a lot of countries, it's still quite archaic the way that it works.

41:15

Andrew

It's literally a piece of paper that you put in and they count it and you hope that it's not been tampered with in some way. So there's definitely a lot of improvement to be had there, generally. So I think that's where it's going to come into real life. But then again, where we can start to make lives easier with identity, where you can keep your information close to you and you can choose who you give that information out to and then how long you give that information out to and even see where that information is going to so that you have a trace of that. And I think in today's world, a lot of this data just gets completely lost and you don't really know, even if you hand that information over to a centralized entity or a corporation. You could have ticked a box somewhere that accepted their terms and conditions.

42:04

Andrew

That meant that data went off somewhere else and was used in a certain way. You become the product as such, or you might have forgotten to tick a box. And that happens. Well, really, that control needs to improve. That visibility needs to improve. And that's essentially where identity is going to help most people to take control of their digital lives and what they're handing out. And as part of that, the great thing is that then you can start to monetize data for yourself, right? Other people are monetizing your data right now. Well, what if you can then have the choice to then monetize yourself to get value out of that? Okay, I want to participate in this. We're going to offer you certain tokens that have real value, not just kind of thin air tokens. And you choose to do that and that's creating a source of revenue for you that I think is a better way of doing that.

42:53

Andrew

And you can choose to opt out if you don't want to share any data because you feel that's your right and your privacy, you can do that. And that level of control is where we need to get to in a self sovereignty sense. And that's where we're aiming for. What we don't want to aim for is this kind of social credit system, social scoring system, where ultimately you're tracked and everything happens and you're being watched and every interaction so on is being overlooked by a government entity. And then of course, points and reputation are allocated to that. We don't want that and that's something we need to avoid and we need to have our eyes open to. But like I said before, when it comes to controlling your data and being able to decide what happens with that data, that's where we need to work to.

43:43

Andrew

And we can't avoid that forever because that's our digital world that we live in.

43:48

JP

Indeed. And it is something that's happening in its current form, right? So the more educated we get about it, the more we realize that we should be controlling that. And at the same so I guess, Andrew, what do you think about mean? What is it going to take for the regular right to understand that data is something that they should have more control over, that they should be empowered to use as they see fit as opposed to it being utilized by some corporation? That because we forgot to check a box, for example, or uncheck one.

44:32

Andrew

Yeah, totally. And I think it's a huge hurdle. The way that we solve it is by making ways of interacting with our digital world as easy, if not easier, plus also providing the value proposition of better control of your data. So the way that I would see this is, let's say for example, like a single sign on. You've got Google, you've got all sorts of single sign on offerings out there, LinkedIn even do one Twitter. You get the idea where we can actually start to improve that is offering an alternative single sign on where you can go and use your SSID self sovereign identity. And then it's as easy as basically a single sign on. But the added bonus is that you store your credentials, you hold your credentials there, and you can see the benefit but have the ease of use. And then slowly but surely you start to then apply this in other places.

45:29

Andrew

But that ease of use and equaling your best experience, previous best experience out there is really required because I think a lot of people don't have really enough time to just believe in certain aspects of, okay, I want to control my data. They just want to get things done in their day to day lives. So you have to focus on the use of use first of all, and then just provide the value add of, okay, you have more control over your data. You can do these things with your data and even see where your data has gone and have better visibility over that. And now all of a sudden it's like, okay, right, yeah, I can see top down. I shared it with this connection here, and I logged in here and I did this here, and then you have this visible view of what has happened in your digital world, then all of a sudden it starts to make sense.

46:15

Andrew

You don't get any of that right now. So that's the sort of usability we need to be thinking about and delivering.

46:21

JP

Okay, it poses an interesting idea. Not necessarily a solution, but one that comes to mind is tick a box. If you want to utilize your data for X amount for $50, for example, every time that you sign in or you share your data with somebody, you could earn up to $50 on that or 50 pounds on that just by keeping control of your data and then sharing it with a company of your choice. I don't know.

46:52

Andrew

Totally. No, it's a great idea. I mean, I'd say let's talk about building something, but what I would say is it should be an opt in and not an opt out. And I think that it's one of those things that should be a value add. So if you want to just completely retain all privacy and you don't want to see any of this kind of stuff, then it shouldn't be sort of rammed down your throat. If it's something that, you know what, I really value this ability to earn from just simply giving my data away. And this is a great revenue stream for me. You know what, I've got two jobs and I'm working, I don't know, 14 hours a day, and I've got kids to feed, and finding these sort of small revenue streams I think could be really valuable where they're not available right now.

47:41

Andrew

And bringing in more value into people's lives that can actually just take a little bit of the burden off. Like this, I think does provide value if people want to opt into it. And that's something where Web3 I think, has a part to play, where blockchain and crypto and digital assets will come to fruition. And that's where we're heading. And I think that if we craft it in the right way, it can be a really wonderful thing for people, particularly where their value is being reduced in the world through various inflation and other things that are happening to people. I think that we need to provide the counterbalance to that effectively.

48:20

JP

Indeed, you're right. We speak a lot about, of course, being able to empower people. We speak a lot about education, that's the purpose that we do these podcasts is to hopefully educate more people about Web3, what they can do, what it is that they could, what we can imagine as a future, and what that journey can be like while you have an active partner. And this certainly plays an important part where you understand that you can control your information, share it with companies of your choice, share it with Advertisers instead of them having to be having to pay another corporation to get your data. Right? And that is something that happens. That is a way that advertisers would target your information, that corporations target your information and you don't have any say in it, nor do you have anything to gain from it. So why shouldn't you?

49:23

JP

Right?

49:24

Andrew

Exactly.

49:27

JP

Okay, so coming back to the topic of empowering people, the promise of Web3, of course, is to also give power to people. But let's also put a spotlight on some of the other stakeholders here, right, so people who are creators or larger communities, right, to empower them as opposed to centralized entities or centralized platforms. Right. I know that you do some work in this space, but how does your work help empower Web3 communities?

50:06

Andrew

Yeah, I think this is fundamental to what we're doing and why we're here. Right. We're in a community even in this space and I think that demonstrates where things are going, where we have more open platforms and we have more collaboration and we have more ability to connect with one another globally. Imagine 40 years ago we didn't have that. I think that's a wonderful thing because we feel more connected to people across the planet. Right. Very positive. I also think that can translate into productivity. And this is what we're seeing with Web3 where communities essentially get together at the moment. It's discord. It used to be slack and various other things, right. And they start to think around how they can solve things together. Now, the great thing about that is that if you have an idea for a product of some sort, you get immediate traction.

50:50

Andrew

Web2, you have an idea and you squirrel away and it's in stealth and you maybe get some funding and then you release something and no one uses it and you hope that you can get people on board and they stay there. What you're doing with Web3, which is really fantastic around communities and you'll know, through AdLunam, is that you're bringing people in to help to test and validate and discuss the ideas with and that creates better traction, better involvement and better advocacy. It's just better all round and there is a lot of noise and a lot of discussion. But I think if that can then be organized and managed in the right way, it can be governed that you have clear processes for. That's where we're heading to. And I think this rise of community through digital means is just going to get stronger and stronger and that's only happening through Web3.

51:39

Andrew

Now of course there's value often used in that, right? People are incentivized through value, but I don't think it's necessarily always going to be the primary thing where people are just searching for the next, I don't know, pump and dump type thing. And again, this probably harks back to the work that you're doing, that there is value created behind engagement through degrees of loyalty and commitment to something, through being aligned to a vision. And that's one of the great things where people, regardless of whether tokens are going up and down, quite often they stick around because they're aligned to a vision and if that vision is strong enough, people will hopefully stay and help that idea and that project get to where it needs to. And for me, that's really the difference I see in terms of what I do, getting involved in those communities and talking to people and how they're using the products and even bring them on as early testers.

52:32

Andrew

53:01

JP

Yeah, well, so it's interesting that you say that because there is a lot of power in the formation of communities, but at the same time getting these communities together with a unified goal, I'm certain there's been a lot of learning in that. Could you tell us what has been maybe one of your biggest learnings that has come from bringing a community together? I think that would be considering that you've worked with multiple projects, you've worked with multiple communities to get them on boarded. What has been one of the key learnings for you that brings that community together?

53:46

Andrew

Yeah, again, I think it's a vision that everyone has and a desire to reach a point that's either communicated generally or everyone has their own idea of what that vision is. And maybe they go off in different directions because they don't agree, but it's always a vision. And that's the glue, I think, that holds people together generally for a quality community. And a community will keep a project honest, right, because they'll be asking questions and holding a project to account. And I think that's really important. Now, back when everyone was starting to form communities around projects, particularly in Blockchain, it was quite chaotic and there wasn't any organization, there wasn't any real governance. There are a few projects doing governance out there, but it wasn't really inherent in organizing people and kind of around these ideas and these visions. Now we have much better tools and of course we're seeing the benefits of those.

54:42

Andrew

You've got tools where you can actually project manage around communities. And my goal really is to start building up a community around product development over time, where you can actually collaborate and basically build the best agency in the world through people just wanting to devote their time to any project that comes along. And essentially, I think we now have the tools to coordinate that. We now have things like Dwork, we have coordinate and various other things that I may not have mentioned, but lots of different tools out there that can help to incentivize, to project manage various aspects of a project that can then allow for potential bidding on how you would then solve that. So imagine you have a guild or a small team of developers that form in their spare time, out of work, that want to earn some money on the side.

55:35

Andrew

Well, then they can actually say, hey, we can do this part of the project. This is what we'll offer, this is our sort of micro organization and we'll deliver this for you at this certain time that doesn't need anything other than just a software platform and a financial transaction or reward, which can happen through web3. Now imagine if you then scale that to more and more individuals. You get software developers, you get the UX designers, you get the project managers. They're all working together. I believe that is a scalable solution. Now, as long as you manage the politics of that well, and it's a fair system, then I think that can then start to change the game in terms of the way that you develop products globally. And people that are brilliant at what they do can participate in this. They don't have to go all in, they can just offer their time and their capabilities when it suits them.

56:26

Andrew

Right. So this is where I think this is where the product aspect of what I'm doing will play out and where it can provide a lot of value and where it really ties all this together. So this is where DAOs are going, essentially, and what DAOs are providing. But I think there's a lot more room to build on that and I see a lot of evolution in that area as well. So I'm really excited about that.

56:47

JP

Thank you for sharing that, Andrew, because when it comes to communities, that is of course one of the key challenges that most Web3 projects or basically any project faces, any company faces, just being able to keep a group engaged. But this aspect of having the micro communities that are more active, also delivering more value, is something that we should all take away from, is that you focus on those that are able to deliver something and not so much only putting this in the worst possible way, but there's a bit of a truth to it. Focus on those that are actually giving you value less, on the spectators who are there for just wondering what's happening. So, yeah, an engaged community, it trumps a large one of spectators any given Sunday. So, Andrew, we have come to the end of the show. I know that there are tons of questions that have come in from the audience.

57:57

JP

Most of them have written in. What I'm going to do is I'm going to pick just one at the moment before. And there's comments as well that say, that fine, you've addressed a lot of their answers and the areas of concern about AI, so that's extremely positive. But if I'm going to just pick one that's come in, what is the mechanism? This is from Robin Kitts and the person asks, what is the mechanism to helping upcoming Web3 space projects to gain ground faster? Is it mentorship and coaching that helps fast track that process? I'll repeat that it's a mechanism that's helping upcoming projects in the Web3 space to gain ground faster. Is it mentorship and coaching?

58:50

Andrew

Yeah, it's a good question. Thanks, Robin. And yeah, let's go for it. Let's do this one. So I see it as collaboration. I see this as, again, individuals that can form an organization to then offer their skills and connect. Right? So there's a divide at the moment that I see between working professionals that can offer these skills and then getting involved and connecting with teams that need this help and then offering this service in a way that can. Be really good value. That can be high quality information that can coach, mentor or whatever it might be, but then perhaps manage to find a way to take a part of that success of that team through incentivization. And you can do token agreements, you can do these kind of things, but to find an easy way to manage that where this might play out really well and everyone.

59:45

Andrew

Benefits or you know what, it might not amount to anything, but just connect those dots and make it easier because there's a wealth of capability and talent out there that at the weekends could spend a couple of hours just connecting with people that need it. Like, for example, you might have a developer team that has limited project management or UX skills, but could be incredible builders. But they're just wondering, well, we can't afford to pay a UX or we can't afford to pay a project manager, and we can't get a lawyer to do a saft or a token agreement to basically then lock in value for something we may or may not launch. But if you can, then make it relatively easy for those professionals to offer a bit of their time to come in to coach, to help and support, to provide that link and then make it easy to tie in.

Andrew

Agreements which are relatively binding, but at the same time, they're not going to persecute or take someone to court if it doesn't play out well. I think that's the ground we need to find a way to create an area for everyone to come together. And for me, it needs to be serious enough to offer real value to people that need this help, but it needs to be flexible enough to know that life isn't perfect and all these projects don't necessarily come to fruition. And if we can solve that, then I think that will be the mechanism that will really project us forward. I do believe it will happen, whether it be a DAO, whether it be a platform, whether it be something else, but someone to connect these individuals and make it worth everyone's time.

JP

Indeed. Okay. So, Robin, I hope that answers your question. It has for me. Thank you for sharing that. Andrew, my last question to you, one that we ask all our guests is you've shared with us so much in terms of your journey into web3, the projects that you've worked on, the orientation that you have when it comes to UX. We've covered a wide arc of what blockchain will bring to the table. Empowering communities, empowering people with their own identities and what they can do with that. And the knowledge is great. And thank you for sharing those gems. We also want to know the code behind the person. Right. So my question to you, Andrew, is what is your personal philosophy and what is it that keeps you going every day?

Andrew

Okay, great question. So I think you probably got a sense I think it's really sort of delivering this technology into the hands of people that can benefit and creating more connections rather than more diversion. Right. And this is where I think I believe that this will take us. And that's why I'm investing my time in It. Building bridges in terms of products that provide those connections and can help that process. And ultimately, I think, seeing fairer value distribution in the world through technologies bitcoin or through earning value, through attention, or spending your time doing something whereby you don't have to do it right, you could just ignore it. But if you do it, then brands have to give a share of the value that they're creating in your engagement. And I think that's where this can play out in a positive way. And so what gets me up in the morning is being part of that movement that we're in right now, to get to that point where ultimately we go, hey, we live a chaotic, busy life.

Andrew

But you know what? I like the way this works. And the reason why I like this is because someone's thought about it and it's been meaningful to kind of deepen their digital world. That's where I want to get to and making decisions around that every day. I'm just one person, right? There are thousands and thousands of people making important decisions every day. But for me, making decisions where I actually think, is this going to be a better outcome as a result? And that is what drives me to get involved in these things. And not every day is so wonderful as that. Sometimes you have very challenging days, sometimes you have more boring days. But ultimately, that's the thing that makes me want to devote my time and my working career towards Web3 and AI and these other wonderful technologies.

JP

Thank you, Andrew. It's true, many drops make an ocean. And hats off to you on this journey of changing the world one brand at a time. Yeah, I believe that's where you're going with that. Once again, hats off to you. Ladies and gentlemen, we've reached the end of our show. We've had a fantastic conversation with Andrew Brough. He's shared with us. He has driven a lot of strategies, a lot of ways that we can empower ourselves. So, once again, thank you so much, Andrew, for being on the show today.

Andrew

Thank you, JP, really enjoyed it. Thanks to everyone who's been here. Feel free to connect with me on Twitter or X, LinkedIn, and you can also find my website at digitalzen.com. Thank you, everyone.

JP

All right, ladies and gentlemen, once again, thank you for tuning into the show. We'll be back next week with the same time and the same place with a guest sharing their wonderful journeys into the Web3 space. Remember, once again, on Tuesdays, we have our show, The Future of NFTs, which focuses, of course, on NFT technologies, hosted by our co-founder, Nadja Bester. Once again, ladies and gentlemen, have a good one. Cheers.