In this special episode, pianist Mariam Kharatyan and electronic artist Alessandra Bossa discuss their collaboration on the Re-Creation Project, where Armenian folk music meets improvisation and live electronics, in Dolby Atmos. You also get to listen to some beautiful tunes from their upcoming album.

Mariam shares how her classical training initially made her hesitant to improvise on folk melodies, but through research and performance, she found a way to merge tradition with spontaneity. Alessandra explains how she uses live electronics to transform subtle sounds—like breaths and instrument noises—into an "untraceable" sonic landscape that enhances rather than disrupts the music’s essence.

They explore the microtonal nature of Armenian folk music, how language shapes melody, and why cross-disciplinary collaboration is good for creativity. The conversation also touches on their upcoming double album, featuring both acoustic and electronic interpretations of Armenian folk songs, recorded live and mixed in Dolby Atmos for an immersive experience.

The episode ends with reflections on folk music as a mirror of identity, its timeless emotional depth, and how technology helps bring its accumulated wisdom into the future.

(soft music)

- Welcome to the podcast Artificial Art.

My name is Steinar Jeffs.

I'm a musician and a music teacher.

And in this podcast, I'll be interviewing guests

about technology and creativity.

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We have Mariam Karatian,

who is an Armenian Norwegian pianist,

associate professor at the University of Agder

and an internationally recognized performer.

Your work bridges classical traditions,

Armenian folk music and improvisation.

And you hold a PhD in artistic research,

focusing on interpreting the music of Komitas

and Kachaturian through the lens

of Armenian folk traditions.

And we have Alessandra Bossa.

You're an Italian electronic music artist and performer

known for blending live electronics,

voice and improvisation.

And your work explores the boundaries

between tradition, innovation

and creating untraceable transformative soundscapes.

And you've performed at major festivals across Europe

and you're a driving force in projects

that merge classical and electronic sound worlds.

And you've also been on this podcast before.

- Correct, yes.

Pleasure to be here again.

- Yeah, that's great.

And together, you are key collaborators

in the Re-Creation Project,

which is about reinterpreting Armenian folk

and spiritual music through improvisations

and live electronics.

So my first question is,

what inspired the Re-Creation Project

and did you envision integrating Armenian folk music

with improvisation and live electronics

or how did you envision it?

- Perfect, that's all I say.

Okay, first of all,

it was an amazing experience working with Madia

and with this project.

I'm really, really happy, darling, and you know.

- Thank you.

- And I wanna say in the folk music,

in specific in this kind of music,

it's a kind of music that is very well articulated.

So everything is clear.

The melody is clear, the rhythm is clear,

harmony, everything.

And so with the live electronics,

what I was trying to do to take these little parts

that are kind of hidden, the uncertain mystery,

try to build something that it was around the music

because in this project,

the piano and the duk that we will talk about,

of course, Maria will talk about,

they were so solid, you know, how can I say?

So present.

And with the electronics,

I was just trying to create a different environment around

and intertwining these, as I say, hidden elements.

- Yeah, so that's kind of your way into the music,

I guess you could say.

But how did this project start from the beginning?

- Yes, I can start there.

The recreation project,

it is in a way the natural step forward

having departure point from my previous project,

Armenian Fingerprints.

If I may shortly introduce the Komitas Shoror album,

that was part of the Armenian Fingerprints project.

In that album, I was playing Armenian folk music,

in that album, I was playing Armenian folk music,

together with Vigen Balasanyan,

our folk musician playing duduk and belul.

And in that album,

after three or four years of working

on this artistic research project,

I was still not daring to improvise on folk music melodies

because of being academically trained

as a classical concert pianist.

I knew that this was not, it was not finished.

I knew that it's coming more of my explorations

on folk music and finding my way of playing folk music.

And after, so Komitas Shoror album was released in 2019

with the Krapa Music Verlag.

And it was, we played the folk tunes as Komitas

has written it down.

And the, mostly the accompaniment

that it has also written down,

very simple, very transparent.

And there were very few places that I was arranging

on my own and playing on my, on piano on my way.

It's very little improvising, almost no improvisation.

But after several years, I was really,

and I needed this space to explore more

because the written way of the folk music,

it was not enough for me.

So that's how the recreation project was born.

I needed this space.

I needed to create a space where these different traditions,

the classical piano playing,

the folk music in its purest essence,

played on folk instruments, duduk and belul,

and also intertwining the new technologies

and live electronics would meet.

So I was in need to create this crossroads

where we meet different traditions.

And that's how recreation project was born.

And for me, working with Alessandra, it was pure pleasure.

The same about working with Vegan Balasayanian,

which was also many years already,

I have been working with him.

The communication was in a way so natural

that we didn't need to talk very much

about what we're going to do.

We just met, we created that space for playing the music,

the way we feel, the way we interact with each other,

and it was happening.

And every session was different.

So all music was recorded live.

All tracks unedited, mostly complete tracks.

So it was a very exciting experience for me

to work with Alessandra and Vegan

and explore together in folk music.

- Yeah, so you have a background

where you've worked on interpreting Armenian folk music

from before and did some projects and recordings of it.

Then it's kind of through the lens of Komitas.

- Yes, the previous project was,

I was interested to explore

how the folk music impacts my piano playing.

Pedaling, articulation, different nuances of the,

like translating the folk aesthetics, folk peculiarities,

let's say, could be from impulses from folk instruments,

in what way I could transform it

and translate into my piano playing.

And there were many interesting turning points

that I was finding out elements

that the piano is possible to play on piano

in a way that the folk music is getting closer

to the folk aesthetics, folk essence,

especially when playing with folk instruments,

because the presence of the duduk sound or belul sound,

it in a way dictates, it has its own idiom,

it has its own peculiarities and vibrations and microtones.

Everything affects the timing completely different

when playing with duduk or belul.

For instance, the same folk melody

I have played on solo piano version

in arrangement for solo piano with classical singer,

and then it's completely different

when playing with duduk or with belul.

It was very fascinating to discover

in what way it impacts my playing.

The same with Kajet Urian's music.

It was more about improvisational timing,

in what way I could come closer

to playing Kajet Urian's music,

having this improvisational flow

and the essence of improvisational timing

when I play classical written composition

that is written by composer.

But the recreation is more creating our own music,

rooted in folk music,

but we create our version, our understanding,

and also develop into new music.

- It's more than interpreting, it's recreating.

- Yes, it is recreating, rooted in folk,

but present here and now,

and in a way with perspective into future

because we have the technology,

new technology and live electronics,

and it's a lot of elements of past, present,

and future that are intertwined in this project.

- And now I think we should listen to one of these pieces,

and then we can talk a bit about it afterwards.

So we're going to listen to a song called "Oror".

Is that right?

- Yes, "Oror".

- And my Google translation told me

that this means lullaby.

I'm not sure if that's correct.

- Correct.

- Yeah, okay.

So it's a lullaby.

So we'll just listen to it,

and then we'll talk a bit about it.

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So to me, that's some hauntingly beautiful music

right there.

And I kind of,

my first association is basically to the movie "Dune",

which also has a lot of duduk in it.

So it probably has something to do with that.

Have you seen the movie, Mariam?

- No, I haven't seen that.

- Ah, it's the best soundtrack for a movie I've heard

in like 20 years or something.

So you should probably check it out.

- I'll check it out.

- But what kind of characteristics

from Armenian folk music

would you say is present in this piece?

- Yeah.

This is "Oror".

This is,

of course, it's a boat monologue.

The mother is talking to herself

and also dialogue, talking to the child.

And it's a lullaby and it's very gentle.

It's very emotional and very like flowing.

And one of the characteristics that is very peculiar

for Armenian folk music,

it is the improvisational aspect of this melody.

As you noticed, probably the melody, it's dominant

because Armenian folk music

has been for centuries monodic or monophonic.

The polyphony came later, around 19th centuries

and in the work of professional composers

that were composing different large scale pieces

or arrangements for choirs.

But like the peasant folklore, folk music,

it has been mostly monophonic.

And this is perfect example in this lullaby

where the melody, it's flowing.

It is very free in the rhythm,

has a very rich ornamentation.

And when it's played with the duduk,

I think the timbre of duduk,

it's so soothing and so velvety and so beautiful.

It is very much resonating with the essence of this lullaby.

And when it comes to improvisation,

what I do in this context, I listen a lot.

I give a lot of space to the presence of folk instrument

and embracing Alessandra's responses to the melody.

And when I start to improvise, I am feeling both very free,

but also very rooted into the melody itself.

It is very easy to give space

to all the technical possibilities

of having the skills of a classical pianist, right?

Because there are so many things a classical pianist could do,

could add lots of harmonics, passages, different things.

But I think the essence of folk music

and also creating music inspired for folk music

is to understanding the specifics of it

and having this restriction of integrating

the parts of folk music that are essentials,

which is like the monodic aspect of this melody.

It nearly doesn't have harmonies.

It is only this drawn note or a chord.

I take a clean quinta, like a fifth,

as a supporting, like hugging tone.

And then on the second part, it's another,

suddenly it's changing to another tonality,

only these two harmonic tones.

And my improvisations are based on the melodic elements

that contains the song.

And it's like micro development of the elements of the song.

And then it is more organic.

So paradoxically, restriction in improvisation

gives a lot of freedom.

And I'm very interested on that aspect

when working with folk instruments and folk music.

The restriction and also the freedom that it gives

when you are truly rooted on the essence

of the melodic development of the particular song,

which is so rich of information.

It contains so much accumulated information

that it is enough for like,

we could improvise for a very long time,

only on that melody,

because there's so much information

on that one line melody.

- And why do you think that is,

when it comes to this melody,

that it's so good, kinda?

That it contains so much accumulated information,

as you say, that it kinda lasts for,

I don't know how old this tune is,

but it's probably pretty old.

- I think it's around 200 years.

- 200 years, so.

- At least 150 years.

- Yeah, so that's a good job making a melody

that's kind of lasts for 200 years

and that you can just improvise over it,

just considering the melody for six minutes at a time

without any problem.

- Yes, I think it has been first written down

by Komitas in Armenian notation system

and published, I think, end of 1800s, 1895,

if I'm not wrong.

So pretty old.

- Yeah, and that's only the notated version, so.

- Only the notated version,

probably the orally transferred version

existed much earlier.

It is very specific with folk music that,

I mean, it has been mainly oral tradition, right?

Folk music has been from generations to generations

and it accumulates from each person who sung the melody.

It, of course, impacted by that person, it transforms.

And I feel that is very special with folk music

that it has so much accumulated wisdom

from generations to generations.

- That's a great way to put it.

Accumulated wisdom from generation to generation,

I love that.

So how do you prepare for such a improvisation setting

where the melody is that important?

How did you prepare for this session?

- Should I start from the beginning?

- Yeah.

- So it is crucial for me,

the selection of the pieces.

I, both in my previous album and also for this album,

I have spent a long time on selecting the music

and which was both peasant folk songs,

there were lullabies, love songs, pilgrim songs,

also spiritual songs, medieval songs

from 7th, 10th, 12th century.

And then at one point I was thinking to include

more lullabies because there is a whole list

of historical lullabies from Armenia, incredibly beautiful.

It is like another album itself,

I could make only with lullabies.

Same goes about folk love songs, pilgrim songs,

they're like specific genres in folk music.

So, but then I had to be selective.

Unfortunately, I couldn't include so many songs.

So I think my list was first 30, over 30 melodies,

then I narrowed it down to 20

and then I had to narrow down to 10.

And then it goes a lot of research about each song,

finding different versions, existing versions of it,

comparing a lot of research on finding different recordings.

Some of them doesn't have much recordings.

So it's a lot of research beforehand.

And then I start playing.

I start feeling the melodies on piano

and imagining also which song on which instrument.

If we're talking particularly about "Recreation" album,

it was very important to choose the right instruments

for the melodies.

And when it comes to meeting together,

Alessandra, Vigen and me,

unfortunately we had very short time.

We had very few days that we could work together,

but I was amazed how good it went.

It went much better than I planned.

And I planned very detailed,

but it was beyond all my expectations

because the instant communication and understanding

of each other and feeling each other as musicians,

it worked wonderfully.

And all of the sessions,

we would only say, "Yes, this melody, this melody,"

and have the least,

but we wouldn't go into details what we are going to do.

We were more present,

listening the impulses from each other

and really trying to respond

the music, the sound around.

- Yeah, so you didn't make an arrangement.

- No, no.

We, it was, it was music in the moment

because every session was different.

The recording session, of course, we had the same melodies,

but it was developing differently.

And we had two or three takes on each song,

also each different.

- Yeah, which, which...

- It was hard time to choose which take to put

because we didn't cut and edit the tracks.

There are very few cuts, very few, like, yeah.

So it's a complete tracks.

It's a live improvisation, the whole album.

- Did you envision how Alessandra would fit sound-wise?

Into the melodies beforehand?

- It's an interesting question.

When it comes to live electronics,

I had, why I wanted to play folk music with live electronics

because live electronics,

the sound possibilities from live electronics

was something that I couldn't create on piano.

It was in a way feeling of this cosmic open space

in music, like of feeling like you're free floating,

like in the dreams, you have sometimes dreams, right?

You are free falling like in the space, totally free space.

So I felt this live electronic sound surrounds

and embrace the melodies and a kind of opens up

that dimension of mystic aspect of the folk songs

and also this enormous free space around it,

like this cosmic eternal feeling of the song melodies.

- And since the electronic music is kind of

a relatively new thing, I guess you could say that

that adds this generation's wisdom to the melody.

- Yes, I could say that.

I could say that.

- Or future generations to listen to.

- I feel about music, it's like mirror.

It's a mirror who we are and in every way,

if we take like folk music, it is mirror

for the people who created it, right?

So it's this collective image of each nation, right?

Or that time that it was created.

It impacted a lot of different elements on that melody.

You can discover a lot from language of the song,

lyrics, the dialect.

There is so much information in each of those songs.

And in a way, also when we play it now

in this contemporary time, right?

With live electronics, it is the mirror of who we are now,

where we are as a society and as a human beings,

our possibilities or our understanding of music.

So like five years ago, I wouldn't dare to go very far

from classical written versions of the folk songs

because it was so impregnated in my mind

that we should never change the written score.

It comes, it's rooted this mindset in the (speaks in foreign language)

the fidelity to work and as the way

as classical musicians, we are brought up.

But like time changes and the needs as a musician

and the explorative aspect, of course, took place.

And here we are, I feel like I can express myself

how I am now, but it's even more interesting

when I do that with fascinating musicians

and fantastic musicians like Viggen and Alessandra.

And it's like this collective mirror.

This is who we are and this is how we feel this music.

And then we create our version of it.

- Yeah, yeah.

And I wanna say also something that is very important

and is important for me and for Mariam as well,

because we are trying, especially here at university

with the students, with everything, with music in general

to avoid the compartmentalization of, you know,

the different fields, different subjects.

So that's the reason also because constantly

we are in contact with each other and say,

"Okay, maybe we can organize this workshop

"and put together the electronic musicians

"with the classical one, folk music, et cetera."

And also my project, the one that I had, for example,

with the Toru and Ericsson, it is a songwriting,

but with electronics, it's this effort to open up

and to have a dialogue with the different musicians,

different genres, because for me,

the future of music anyway is the hybrid,

is much more electroacoustic,

how we interact with this technology

that is gonna be present for sure.

So that's, I think, is our main idea.

And also together with other teachers

and also what we will do next week together

with the students of Live Electronics,

have this dialogue, constant dialogue.

- I think it's very important,

the cross-disciplinarity in our university.

If you are talking now about students

and the university we work,

it is so beneficial for both classical students

and also electronics students and in general to collaborate

and to go out from that routine they have,

let's say the classical training, which is fantastic,

so much development there, so much to discover.

But I think every time when we're having

these collaborative projects, they discover something new

and I can see from the feedbacks of the students,

they need this cross-disciplinary projects

to expand the horizons,

to discover different things during their studies.

Also after studies, after they graduate,

it is very difficult to be only narrow in one field,

even though that field could be huge

and the possibilities could be huge there.

But I think it's very good skill to cultivate in students

during their studies to learn to collaborate

across disciplines and embrace other disciplines

and have understanding in different forms of music,

not only classical, could be live electronics

and all other genres.

- I totally agree.

Keeping an open mind, stuff like that.

So in the tune we listened to, "Oror",

we also heard Alessandra and your sound.

Could you explain a bit about what you were doing there?

How did you approach the music

and technically as well, what was going on?

- Yeah, okay, what I've done with this material,

this sonic material, it was just to,

first of all, everything was kind of live.

'Cause when we had the recording session,

I was there with the musician

and I was really catch this sound,

put it inside my computer and start to do

the long process of resampling them.

And I, when actually after the recording session,

when I was home, I also add some of my vocals,

but also there, it was never in a studio session mode.

It was much more in live performance mode.

That's okay, now it's recording time.

And I just started to sing and use my tools.

'Cause it's this kind of music,

it was so open and fresh

and I wanna just announce, as I already said.

So different tools, I was using Ableton Live

and my vocals, a sound box.

Yes, and this sound box with the bow that Mariam love.

(laughing)

Yeah, because it's also visually performative.

That is an important part for me.

When people see also the concert and this movement

that I do with the bow, with a metallic piece of something.

And I just emulate the movement of a violin, for example.

'Cause I try to create this different

or this overlapping of perception that it seems a violin,

but actually I'm using the voice

and I'm using this metallic sound.

That's what I try all the time,

to have this sort of ambiguity,

but also to make the sound,

the experience of sound outside the music.

How we experience is really,

how we can make the sound transmodal.

That it seems more, we are not only hearing,

but we are also have this body feeling.

So this kind of, yeah,

approach that I have.

- Yes.

- Earlier you also, I mean,

when you were on the podcast last time,

you were also talking about your sound

as something untraceable.

That's kind of a term you use.

And I guess, or I would assume that that's important

when dealing with this kind of music

where you probably want to kind of pay respect

to the tradition

where the Armenian folk music is coming from,

as well as you want to add something new

and you want to kind of blend it.

At least in my ears,

when I listen to this track and the others,

I think you do a really good job of blending

your sound with the traditional sound.

So it doesn't seem like foreign,

or it's not like you grab this synth pad

and just slap it on top of an existing track.

It seems like it's interwoven.

- Yeah.

- And I guess that probably has something to do

with how you make these sounds,

that you use sampling

and that you actually sample the instruments

that are in use.

- Yeah.

- Does that has anything to do

with making the sound untraceable?

- Yeah, actually,

there is a specific case

with the last song that we have recorded.

Because I remember very precisely,

Vigan, he was approaching to play a long melody

with a duduk.

So he was starting to breathe a lot.

And I would say, "Oh, wow, that's amazing sound."

And just took the sound

and started to,

that it was a little sound

because it was just a breathing frequency, you know?

And I tried to put a lot of gain

and effect and resample it.

And suddenly it was transforming

in totally something else.

It was a really this field

that it was quite a forest sound,

very organic.

And so completely, you know,

the source of the sound,

we just say, "Okay, bye-bye."

- It was breathing.

- Yes, it was breathing.

But at the end,

there was this other element

that integrated very well.

- I think we should listen to that.

- Yes, perfect.

- Can we find it?

- That is the last song,

"Kan tjek rung", "Coal Crane".

And it's the very ending of it.

Then you hear that breathing.

(gentle music)

(coyote howling)

(gentle music)

(coyote howling)

(gentle music)

(coyote howling)

(gentle music)

(coyote howling)

(gentle music)

(coyote howling)

(gentle music)

(coyote howling)

(gentle music)

(coyote howling)

- 'Cause that sounds like running water

or the ocean or something.

I assume that you have a sample of like waves or something.

But that's just-

- It is breathing. - Just breathing.

That's so cool.

- It's very interesting because,

interesting how subtle nuances the live electronics can

gather and translate and transform and share it again.

And I just had this idea that,

I don't know where I have read that

the human eye cannot see all the colors

or we can't enhance everything

like in all shades and everything.

So it's very interesting that the comparison

that you find some nuances, some colors,

that we cannot trace it without special tools.

It's like you dive really deep into nuances

and bring it forward and then it brings new dimension

to the whole act of playing together.

I think that was very, very interesting.

- Cool.

I think we should listen to another tune as well.

And I was thinking we listen to Matniki Matovs Kjer.

- Yes.

- Probably botched that pronunciation.

(laughing)

How do you say it for real?

- Matniki Matovs Kjer.

- Okay.

- Sounds much better.

- Yeah. (laughing)

Agreed.

- The ring misfit my finger.

- Yeah, the ring misfit my finger.

And this is a different woodwind instrument.

Is this the belul?

- This is the belul.

And in this version, we are playing it in duo.

Because our album actually turned to be double album.

I will talk about that in detail.

So we have all of these 10 folk songs and spiritual songs

played in a version with folk instruments and piano

and our trio version,

live electronics, folk instruments and piano.

- Okay, so now we're going to listen to a duo

between you and Viggen.

- Viggen, who plays on belul.

(piano playing)

(piano playing)

(piano playing)

(piano playing)

(piano playing)

(piano playing)

(piano playing)

- So, the belul and the duduk

are instruments that kind of invoke

the Armenian folk sound, I guess you could say.

- Yes.

- What about this instrument evokes kind of

the Armenian spirit, do you think?

- It is very interesting with folk instruments.

I have witnessed a very interesting moment

which was a turning point for me to understand

the essence and some of the specifics

of the folk instruments.

So I've been playing with folk instruments

already several years.

And every time I play with duduk or belul

and it is with Viggen, I've worked mostly,

I am amazed how it impacts my piano playing.

That's one of the aspects because the timing of duduk,

it is on its own, it's unique.

The phrasing, the way it is played.

And belul is completely different.

Belul is open on both sides, it's cylindrical

and it's very difficult to create a sound

on that instrument.

There are actually very few people

who are able to play belul and Viggen is one of them.

One of the best folk musicians in Armenia

who plays over nine folk instruments.

Duduk, belul, zurna, baku, shvi,

in addition to saxophone and clarinet,

among other instruments.

- Why is it so difficult to play belul?

- Because, well, I tried and I couldn't even make a sound

come out from the instrument.

So you need to use the lips in a certain way

that one part of that, it's an open reed, right?

One part of lips close the reed, close that sound hole,

and the other should be open.

And it's extremely difficult to direct the airflow

into the instrument and have the basic sound out of it.

And when it comes to intonating and having the melodies,

playing the instrument, both duduk and belul,

it's a whole story in itself,

because I can quote one of the musicologists,

fantastic musicologist, Aram Kocarian,

who has researched on folk instruments.

And he says that, for instance,

if you give Chinese woodwind instrument to an Armenian

and to a Chinese or a Kurdish player,

they would play that Chinese woodwind instrument

based on their identity and how they feel,

their inner ear, the modes and the motives

that are encoded in their body

and in their subconsciousness.

And that's musical accumulated knowledge

that they have in their subconsciousness.

So this is an interesting thing with folk instruments.

For instance, in duduk, let's say a sound hole, right?

When it is closed, it is producing one tone.

When it's open, it is producing another tone,

which is a whole tone difference.

And there you have the microtones in between,

because if the musician is closing the sound hole

one eighth or one fourth, one third,

then you have all the nuances of the microtones.

And based on the identity of each performer,

the instrument sounds itself.

And what I witnessed in my office, it was fascinating.

Five years ago, Vigen was here in Kristiansand,

and we have done already the album recording,

and he was having a workshop with Albanian student,

clarinet student, who knew how to play duduk.

And they were working together.

It was very spontaneous, very fascinating to witness.

I could not recognize the duduk

when it was played by Albanian musician.

It was beautiful.

It was fantastic.

Both of them play wonderful,

but it was the instrument sounded completely different.

So I believe it's the identity of the performer

that impacts each instrument,

and the way they resonate with music

and how they translate it on the instrument.

And also drawing parallel to that,

when I play, for instance, with balul or duduk,

I subconsciously try to imitate some of the vibrations

and the intonation.

And I found myself,

sometimes I'm using dissonance intervals

during improvisation to imitate the microtones

of the folk instruments.

So it is very interesting how the identity

and the feeling of what music you are playing

impacts the instrument,

regardless what instrument you are playing,

piano or balul or duduk.

So the identity and this musical subconsciousness,

all the information that a musician has in subconsciousness,

it translates during the playing.

- Yeah, so the sound isn't in the instrument itself.

It's come from the performer

in conjunction with the instrument.

- I think, of course,

every instrument has its own specifics.

Duduk has its own scales.

For instance, many songs,

we use the space, the modes,

which is fitting perfectly for duduk.

For some reason, for instance,

Viggen would say,

I would like this tune that we play in A, for instance,

instead of G, for example.

It's because the instrument has its own model system

and things that are working in this or that way better

in specific instrument.

Of course, the instrument dictates own possibilities,

but I think the identity of the performer

has a major role when it comes to the sound,

because the scale itself,

we can find the same scale or modes in different music.

We can find same modal conjunctions

that are in Armenian folk music,

in Greek music, for instance.

But it is the matter of how it is performed,

how it is played, the ornament, the nuances, timbre,

and how it is impacted by the player.

- And I find it really fascinating

to just think about or philosophize over

why or how that particular way of playing has come about.

Like, why do Armenian players

use this kind of orientation,

these kind of microtones that make the sound different

from Turkish music or Arabic music?

And probably they're influenced by each other as well.

It's probably impossible to kind of trace

where it all started, but like, why?

Why did you choose that particular sound in Armenia?

- It is very fascinating field.

It's a huge field, of course.

It's difficult to go into details,

but the obvious thing for me, it is the language,

the Armenian language that is directly impacting

all folk melodies and all the dialects of the language

are also fascinating as well.

How some of the very famous folk tunes

that have been circulated in different regions,

how they are impacted by the local dialect of people

who sang the same melody and how they are transformed

that tune and language and its phonetics

has a crucial impact on how the ornaments, microtones,

phrasing are developed, for instance,

in Armenian folk music.

Even if we look on the melody that we listened,

"Matnik matovas tser", "The ring misfit my finger",

like the accents, the breathing, the phrasing,

they are directly connected to the lyrics,

the Armenian language lyrics that are in Armenian.

And it is interesting also in perspective

that even when those songs are translated

into European notation system,

they don't correlate to the European notation system

and its bar line rules, for instance.

So they are directly correlated to the linguistic flow

and the phonetics and where is, for instance,

the phrase is finished and then breathing

and then a new one.

And that is not necessarily the beginning of the bar

in the European notation system.

Could be in a very uncomfortable places

in a European scores.

- You mentioned earlier something

about Armenian notation system.

- Yes.

- Is that like accommodating to folk music,

the Armenian system?

- Yes.

We have now the folk music available

in European notation system.

We are very lucky because when I bring example on Komitas,

because he was the most known

and he did major work on collecting

and preserving Armenian folk music.

He would travel from village to village

and attend folk gatherings.

He witnessed also the folk music to be born in the moment.

He written down several of folk songs right at the moment

when a group was having fun and composing,

not even, they don't even call it composing.

They were in the moment and creating collectively

dance song.

There is a whole general of the collective dance songs.

So, and he would of course write it

in Armenian notation system.

It has been present many centuries back.

It is called Khazer.

But many centuries back, it got lost the key

of the understanding of Khazer

because it was used by clergy and priests

and it was not widespread among peasants.

But in 19th century, Limonjan, Hambartum Limonjan,

he used some of this nevmatic system of the Khazer

and created a new system of Khazer,

new system of Armenian notation

that would accommodate of easily writing down

the folk melodies and collecting them

and saving them to not get lost.

And that was brilliant idea

because I believe it's very uncomfortable

to write it down folk melodies

on European notation system.

Already Komitas was aware

that the European notation system

doesn't accommodate the needs

and the peculiarities of the folk music.

And he was notating those melodies in Limonjan system,

in Armenian notation system.

- It's probably difficult to explain,

but what are the differences

between European and Armenian notation system?

- It is of course,

you can show the microtones,

you can like mention that this tone is a bit lower,

this is a bit higher.

It's of course a difference between the bar lines

and it's of course monodic

and you can have lots of nuances

that are not so easy to write down

in a European notation system.

- Does it have five note lines?

- No, no, no, no, no, no.

It's like nevmatic system, I can show you.

- Nevmatic system?

- It's like nevms, it's like separate letters.

- Okay.

- I can show you.

- I'll put a link to this in the description as well

if you can send me how it looks.

- For instance, this is one of Komitas

folk songs that he has written down in a Limogian system.

For instance, this in 1913, he has written down this.

So this is letters in Armenian

and this is the nevmatic system.

- Okay.

- He has written it down.

This is quite fascinating.

When I was in conservatory, we have learned this system,

but we don't use it widespread now

because we have the European notation

and it's also easier to do it in a European instrument,

on piano, for instance.

But it was mandatory, we learned this system,

we learned about it.

Yeah.

- I think we should listen to another tune now.

"Keller koler".

- "Keller soler".

- "Soler".

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- So this track has a kind of a different tonality

than the other ones we have listened to this far.

At least in my ears, it sounds more mystical,

more haunting or scary perhaps.

What's this tune about?

- This is a love song.

I have actually the lyrics.

It's a very beautiful one.

- Okay.

- He walked around my love in the sunlight.

He walked around my love.

Habitual to the mounts and single come dear.

You sun ray, you light, come dear.

And then repeats, he walked around my love

and across green fields, across the meadows,

come dear, through orchards in the down, come dear.

Beneath the cool tree in the shadow, come dear.

You have moved all in sweat, come near.

Go and sleep, it is cool.

You have to rest.

Come dear, all in sweat, no strength left, come near.

He walked around my love, dear ray of light.

He walked around my love.

- Okay.

- It's a beautiful love song.

- It's a love song.

- I believe it's a girl singing.

- Okay.

- Yeah.

- It kind of brings into question

how our cultural upbringing has kind of shaped us

into having different emotional connotations

linked to different kinds of tonalities

and different types of music.

So as I was saying, to me, it sounds haunting or mysterious,

but I mean, in Armenian ears,

it might sound entirely different.

How does it sound to you, Mariam?

- Most of these songs I know since I'm born,

they are like stored in my subconsciousness.

I grew up with them.

I heard so many versions of them

and I know the melody by heart,

even if I don't remember all of the lyrics by heart,

but the melody is there.

The intonations, the motifs of the song, it's all there.

And you said it sounds mystical and very different.

And I just forgot to mention what is the main difference

of Armenian folk music.

It's that it has these tetrachords that are conjunct,

not like it doesn't have the octave

and tonality understanding of the European music.

A very simple example,

just to understand the main difference,

is that for instance, C major tonality, right?

C, D, E, F, and then that's the first tetrachord.

And then the second is the G, A, H, C.

So there is this second,

the interval of second in between.

But in Armenian music,

it is the conjunction of the tetrachords,

for instance, C, D, E, F.

Then the F is the beginning of the next tetrachord.

Then it's F, G, A, B, and then the next tetrachord,

B, C, A, sorry, D and E flat.

And among those conjunction of the tetrachords

that create modes,

there is also the many possibilities of augmentation

of the intervals,

both from below and upper

and the complex correlations of the modes.

So that is one of the differences.

For instance, when I opened the score of this song,

it's written B flat and C sharp.

So you don't have that in European tonality system, right?

So it's a different way of understanding

of tonality as such.

- Yeah.

- So it's very different.

So even the brief looking of the scores

that are fully in European notation,

you notice the differences,

both rhythmical, the ornamentations,

especially the signs, like the key signs

that are fundamentally different

than tonality signs in European music.

- And then you have the microtones as well.

- And then you have the microtones of the instrument,

which is so fascinating to experience

because we are so used to hear tuned instruments, right?

Tempered instruments,

but then comes the folk instruments

with the subtle nuances of something

between this quarter microtones

and very enriching melodies.

- How about you, Alessandra, when you hear this tune,

what kind of images comes forth in your mind?

What kind of fantasies do you envision?

- Yeah, that's interesting.

Actually, I was, while Marim was talking,

and I was thinking about Viggen

when he was playing the duduk

and how he was able to go exactly there,

in this, where as a pianist,

we cannot go between the notes.

And so I was, sometimes I had this kind of frustrations,

especially with the piano,

that is a sort of, oh, why I cannot go there

exactly in the middle, you know?

And use that nuances.

But I can say that the way that in this project,

Marim and Viggen were playing together,

it's something that, okay, perfect.

It's so natural, there is no problem.

It's also the way you go around the melody

and use also the timbre of the piano.

It's so, yeah, give me, this is sort of,

it's really peaceful quite of the time.

Yeah, and yeah, so.

- Yeah, when it comes to microtones,

of course it's not possible to recreate that on piano,

but this use of small seconds,

secunda in Italian,

they give this possibility of, in a way,

attempt of imitating a microtone,

because then you take the, for instance, A and B, right?

You play both of the notes

and together with the folk instrument,

when he's in that mode

and you don't know which exact microtone he's using,

that is like a little attempt of tuning into him.

- Yeah, you play both in that case.

- Yeah, you play both.

It's very fascinating because when Gomettas was writing

in one of the folk dances for piano,

he has several versions.

And in one version, he writes D,

in the second version, he writes D sharp,

because he was not sure,

because those melodies he brought down,

those dance melodies he brought down from folk musicians.

And there you are, there are microtones.

He can't find it on piano, but he writes both versions.

And I ended up playing it, both notes,

even though according to the score,

I have to play one of those notes.

I have to decide D or D sharp,

but now I play both of them.

And it's disturbing, of course, for listeners who are not,

or who are familiar to hear it

in a version of clean, tempered version.

But to me, the dissonances are perfect consonances.

I really embrace the dissonances

because I think they enrich the tempered sound of piano

and coming closer to the folk aesthetics.

- Yeah, exactly, yes.

'Cause a folk music has so many nuances.

- Very many nuances.

- In the pitch, in the harmony,

the stuff in the...

So that's always...

- Yeah, there are so many things to discover

and learn from folk musicians,

their musicking, the way they play,

the way they are interacting with music

and interacting with others,

and also the instrument itself,

the sound they create, there's a lot of things.

- I was thinking, for example,

for when I was a classical musician,

a long time ago, I'm very old.

I was actually playing a repertoire

of Alberto Baristoghino Stera,

that is a composer from South America,

and he wrote a lot of contemporary music

that was exactly the folk music from South America.

But the way that you have to play the piano in that case

is absolutely not in a classical way.

You have to use it as drums, as percussions,

and so everything changed.

And also, not only 'cause the dynamics,

but the frequencies, it seems to change

because you're clustered all the time,

and there's a fortissimo that you have to use.

So you really, you have to see the tools,

the instrument, like something else.

That's fascinating to me.

- That's very fascinating.

I experienced a similar thing when playing Kaja Duryan.

He also oftentimes using the piano as a percussive,

and he has also rooted his art in folk music,

all the impulses and inspiration from it.

And the dissonances, it is perfect consonances for him too.

And right in the beginning of the piano concerto,

you land on that dissonance second.

And it's interesting because I found a way

to play it at the same time using thumb on both keys,

which is very uncomfortable,

but after a while, it was so comfortable.

And that dissonance was making so much sense.

And why he wrote it, it's because of folk impulses.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

- And it's inspiring, right?

- It is.

- And what do you think about Armenian folk music?

How or why does it still resonate

when interpreting it in like 2025?

- I hope it resonates good with people.

I hope they will...

I hope our vision of it or the way we feel,

it will resonate to many people.

Hope that.

For me, the folk music, again, it is intertwined with time.

It is timeless.

And in a way, it is eternal in whatever form it comes,

no matter if it's in a song by a singer,

in folk instruments or combination

of classical and folk instruments,

or a new medium such as combination with live electronics.

I think folk music has so much power in it.

And we already see that it has survived

so many centuries.

I am very hopeful that it will survive

many, many centuries ahead.

And I am very curious how I would play

and with other musicians in 10 years.

In what way, after time, I will be shaped as a musician

and in what way I will perceive.

And share it when I play.

That is also interesting to discover.

But I am certain that folk music itself,

regardless who is playing,

it has so much power that it can withstand any time.

- It's so spiritual.

- It's very spiritual.

- And it has such a humanity, you know?

I think that, especially right now,

we need this kind of music that resonates

with other human beings.

The diversity, the folk music,

it's something that is about roots.

- Yes.

- All the different roots that we have.

I think also my roots, the South Italian folk music,

how different it is and how much I need to remember,

oh yes, I come from there.

So it's about my identity, the way I talk with the others.

That I wanna communicate.

- Yes.

For me, it was very important also to discover,

create this room to explore and discover

how our different identities come out, right?

When we play this music.

And it is also very interesting to experience.

When it comes to folk music,

I mean, all of this folk music,

it's about life, the people lived.

It's about lullaby.

It's part of their everyday life.

It's a lot of deep feelings, love and longing,

like Pilgrim songs.

It's longing for homeland, longing for loved ones.

It's like reflecting and mirroring the life, everyday life.

And it's a lot of human emotions present in these songs.

And those things are eternal, regardless of time.

We need them regardless of which century we are.

- And this music you can listen to in your double album.

Do you wanna promote the release of this album?

- Yes.

So we created a double album.

- Now with the fantastic also help of Roald.

- Yes.

- That he did an amazing job,

especially with all the electronics sounds.

Because this album is gonna be also in Ambisonic,

we have to say.

- Yes.

- Dolby Atmos.

- Dolby Atmos.

We embrace the possibilities of Atmos,

the immersive sound and the fantastic opportunities of it.

And for the listeners,

that is also one of the aspects in this,

that it's so interwoven, the past, present and the future,

and all the technology elements that embrace our vision

and can enrich it and open up different dimensions

of folk music, different possibilities,

how it could be played and how it could be captured

in today's technology and how it could be shared

for listeners for the best experience for the listener.

So they become in a way part of it,

because when they listen,

they feel it's all around them in Atmos technology.

And I had the dream team.

So grateful to Alessandra and Wiggen and Roald

for the fantastic work they've done.

And they listened my countless conversations

about trying to share the understanding

of the roots of the music, the meaning of the songs.

I think those conversations made it possible.

Everything went so smooth

because in the music sessions, we didn't need to talk.

Then we were so ready to play

and go directly into the music that speaks for itself.

So I'm very grateful for a fantastic team

and our double album is ready for release

second half of 2025.

Exact date will come a bit later.

So we are looking forward to share it with everyone.

- Stay tuned for that.

And before we sign off,

we're going to listen to the last piece of music.

Maybe you could just pronounce what it's called.

- It's called "Kanjgrunk", cold crane.

It's a pilgrim song.

It's about a person who is away from homeland,

longing for homeland, longing for loved ones.

It's incredibly beautiful melody, beautiful music.

- Thank you so much for coming,

Alessandra Bossa and Mariam Karatian.

- Thank you.

- Thank you so much.

- Thank you.

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