Shownotes
This podcast episode delves into the complexities and nuances of contemporary golf, featuring a candid discussion with the esteemed Gary Van Sickle. We engage in a dialogue that traverses topics ranging from the evolution of golf media to the implications of player injuries, particularly focusing on the challenges faced by renowned golfer Tiger Woods. The conversation further illuminates the changing landscape of golf journalism, highlighting a perceived decline in substantive coverage and a shift towards entertainment-driven narratives. Additionally, we explore the contrasting dynamics within different golf tours, including the PGA Tour and the LPGA, and the implications of evolving media practices on audience engagement. Throughout our discourse, we aim to shed light on the intricate interplay between tradition and innovation within the realm of golf.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Golf World
- sportsillustrated.com
- TGL
- PGA Tour
- LPGA Tour
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcripts
Welcome to Grilling at the Green After Hours.
Speaker A:The conversation that took place after the show ended.
Speaker B:Everybody, welcome to After Hours.
Speaker B:Gary Van Sickle with us today.
Speaker B:Gary is truly.
Speaker A:Well.
Speaker B:I have him on the show three or four times a year because I always enjoy talking to him.
Speaker A:Also, you like having the hour off because I talk so incessantly that you can't get a word in edgewise.
Speaker A:So it's like you can sit back and smoke a cigarette and have a beer.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, the.
Speaker B:The only.
Speaker B:When I.
Speaker B:When I tell my producer that Gary's on the show this week, he's always like, okay, I'm gonna carve out an extra hour to edit the show.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Pretty much, yeah.
Speaker B:Anyway, so I thought we would do something different instead of the, you know.
Speaker A:Makes sense.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:What's your favorite color?
Speaker B:Lifesaver.
Speaker B:So I'm gonna.
Speaker B:I want you to name the first thing that comes to your mind when I give you the name or topic.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:You ready?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Pebble Beach.
Speaker A:Gil Morgan.
Speaker B:You can embellish if you want to.
Speaker A:Well, remember he was going to win the 92 US Open when the course was kind of over the top and he was running away with it.
Speaker A:And I remember I was at Golf World magazine, and my boss, like, after two rounds, he's like, ah, this thing's over.
Speaker A:And I'm just like, gil Morgan's not going to win the US Open.
Speaker A:He was like, what are you talking about?
Speaker A:Well, I was right that time.
Speaker A:But, yeah, Gil Morgan had just played 36 incredible holes, and then reality set in, and it blew like crazy on Sunday.
Speaker A:It was just insane.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Wyndham Clark,.
Speaker A:Unfortunately, we think for him, Oakmont locker kicked it in.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you'd think two US Opens would change that, but for a lot of people, it hasn't.
Speaker B:No, that's true.
Speaker B:Worry.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:It's hard to.
Speaker A:You know.
Speaker A:I don't know what a short answer.
Speaker B:Is, but we got time.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:You know, which way's the wind blowing?
Speaker A:He comes out.
Speaker A:Remember he said live was horrible and it was ruining golf.
Speaker A:And then it's like, no, it's not that bad.
Speaker A:And then he.
Speaker A:He goes whichever way the wind blows.
Speaker A:So he is.
Speaker A:Lee Westwood said, if you listen to Rory, say something, just wait, he'll come back the other way and, you know, give him a year.
Speaker A:He'll come back and say the opposite, which a lot of people do.
Speaker A:He flip.
Speaker A:He flops.
Speaker A:That's what he should have said, but.
Speaker A:Greatest European golfer ever.
Speaker A:How about that?
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:There you go Nelly Corda.
Speaker A:Best looking swing in golf right now.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Any golf.
Speaker A:Men, women, seniors, any golf.
Speaker A:I hope that's not offending Steve Elkington.
Speaker A:He's kind of retired.
Speaker A:But her swing is so good.
Speaker B:Gosh, if I had half of her swing, I would be on cloud nine.
Speaker A:You know, I was supposed to do a story for sportsillustrated.com on the 18 prettiest swings in golf.
Speaker A:And they'd done that story like, five years earlier.
Speaker A:They wanted me to update it.
Speaker A:And I'm looking like, well, you had Mickey Wright, like, number three.
Speaker A:I can't update that.
Speaker A:So I changed it to best, the pretty prettiest, not best, prettiest swings of the 21st century.
Speaker A:And I think I had Nellie Corda, number two or two or three.
Speaker A:She was.
Speaker A:I, I love watching her swing.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:She didn't come up this year, but last year she was up in Portland for the Standard Classic.
Speaker B:And so I went out and followed her and covered her for.
Speaker B:And I don't think she felt good that day.
Speaker B:But, you know, they had just come back from Europe.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they came to Portland, and all the girls were tired.
Speaker B:But even with that tired, I was just, like, in awe of watching her.
Speaker B:The fluidity and the smoothness, and it's just like, wow.
Speaker B:And if you ever get a chance to watch her in real life, go do it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Tiger woods retired.
Speaker A:I'm afraid he's done.
Speaker A:It was good while it lasted.
Speaker A:And, you know, with his back, if he plays, all he's doing is, you know, when Lanny, when he got that first back Fusion, Lanny Watkins, who's had back Fusion, said all that does is shift the pressure up the spine to the next one.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:And you're going to snap that and you're going to work your way up to the spine until you know it's not going to be good.
Speaker A:And he warned about that.
Speaker A:And, yeah, sure enough, Tigers had at least one more Fusion, I'm not sure.
Speaker A:I think he had another dissect discectomy.
Speaker A:So I just hope Tiger does.
Speaker A:Doesn't keep playing and ruin himself so he can't enjoy life at all.
Speaker A:I. I don't say I worry about him, but his back is not good.
Speaker A:And he doesn't have to play golf to entertain us.
Speaker A:I know he wants to be.
Speaker A:He's competitive, he wants to play, but he doesn't owe us anything.
Speaker A:He owes himself to have good health so he can, you know, watch his kid.
Speaker A:See what his kid can do in golf is.
Speaker A:Charlie's pretty good Player do the father.
Speaker B:Son thing every December.
Speaker B:You know, a couple things like that that'll give people their tiger fix.
Speaker B:And I can tell you, you're right.
Speaker B:What Lenny Watkins said, because I've had that done.
Speaker B:And where they fix it feels pretty dang good compared to what it was.
Speaker B:But then it doesn't take too long to the vertebrae right above it.
Speaker B:You start.
Speaker B:It starts grinding on you again.
Speaker A:So I'll tell you, if you've had knees replaced, you got this.
Speaker A:I do have any original parts left.
Speaker B:Very few.
Speaker B:I'm an.
Speaker B:I'm an aftermarket guy, Gary, so.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're.
Speaker A:If.
Speaker A:If only we had bionic body parts, like $6 million, man, you'd be unstoppable.
Speaker B:Oh, I would be it.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker B:Sometimes it plays hell walking through an airport, I can tell you that.
Speaker A:Oh yeah.
Speaker B:Brian Olaf.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:Oh, the.
Speaker A:The new CEO.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Blunt.
Speaker A:I like that about him.
Speaker A:I think he's doing what the investors want him to do, but I don't agree with what he's doing.
Speaker A:But he's answering not to the players, he's answering to the ssg.
Speaker A:The guys who have a couple of billion they're putting in.
Speaker A:So they expect a return on their investment.
Speaker A:It's a.
Speaker A:It's all about roi.
Speaker A:The PGA Tour is the take out the PGA and replace it with roi.
Speaker B:Yeah, you and I talked about that before and as soon as they did that fact, I think you were on right after they announced that.
Speaker B:And we both said these guys are going to want to return.
Speaker B:These guys aren't doing it because they love the tour.
Speaker B:There's a, you know, there's business models and stuff and all kinds of things at the highest level that they're looking at.
Speaker B:And once they agreed to do it, the, the heat was on.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Scott o', Neill, speaking of somebody like that from live.
Speaker A:I don't know anything about him.
Speaker A:I feel sorry for him because he's swimming upstream.
Speaker A:He's trying to stop the.
Speaker A:He's trying to hold back the North Sea with a pitchfork.
Speaker A:I don't think it's going to work.
Speaker B:I like it.
Speaker B:I like it.
Speaker B:We talked about this a little bit in the show, but Phil Mickelson,.
Speaker A:He's a mystery.
Speaker A:I'd like to know what's going on.
Speaker A:Maybe it's not my business, maybe it's not any of our business, but I'm just curious because he was, you know, he was a.
Speaker A:He was.
Speaker A:I mean, if Tiger woods didn't exist, we'd be sitting here talking about Phil Mickelson's.
Speaker A:Maybe, you know, one of the best players in history.
Speaker A:I did a what if story a while back, and Phil very easily could have had 18, 18 major titles.
Speaker A:He had a lot of could have, should have and would us.
Speaker A:And I think.
Speaker A:I think I came up with 15 that he probably should have won or realistically could have won.
Speaker A:And he had some others where he could have, but he would.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He could have had 15 just like Tiger, but he didn't for variety of reasons.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:TGL golf,.
Speaker A:It's been disappointing for me.
Speaker A:I thought they were going to play real golf holes, not video game holes.
Speaker A:And so when.
Speaker A:When they started, I thought they were going to, you know, let's.
Speaker A:I thought they were going to go, like, play Riviera on a simulator screen.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they're playing these holes.
Speaker A:And then the holes got wilder the second season, it might as well be pinball, so.
Speaker A:And also the team name, like live.
Speaker A:The team names don't make sense.
Speaker A:Who's on what team?
Speaker A:Makes no sense.
Speaker A:Again, why wouldn't you have, like, an Australian team, a South African team?
Speaker A:Why is.
Speaker A:Why.
Speaker A:Why do the teams have, like, why does one team.
Speaker A:Boston.
Speaker A:They don't play any games in Boston.
Speaker A:Everything's in South Florida.
Speaker A:So as good as I thought it was going to be, and it's a little hard for me to watch the whole.
Speaker A:I would like to a while.
Speaker B:I would like to.
Speaker B:To go there and see the putting green and see how that undulates and changes and that.
Speaker B:That the technology and just the mechanics of that fascinate me.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker A:The audio in that big place they have, it just sounds, you know, sounds like there's 10 people in a large bus terminal.
Speaker A:It just sounds bad.
Speaker A:It just sounds low rent.
Speaker A:It doesn't sound like 10,000 people cheering.
Speaker A:It's people clapping.
Speaker A:The ceilings high.
Speaker A:And it echoes off.
Speaker A:And you're waiting for the voice to say, next bus to Poughkeepsie now loading at Terminal four.
Speaker A:You know, it.
Speaker A:The atmosphere as a TV viewer is not, to me, is not good.
Speaker B:I've watched it a couple times.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and it was.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker A:I'll.
Speaker B:I'll say it was okay.
Speaker B:You know, when there was nothing else on and I watched, I happened to see it on the channel lineup.
Speaker A:Okay, well, I wonder if that's why they're starting the season in February.
Speaker A:You know, besides the fact they jettisoned two events in Hawaii.
Speaker A:They trying to make TGL into a bigger thing to make money on that.
Speaker A:Because that.
Speaker A:That TGL season that needs to Be done before the tour season starts.
Speaker A:Remember last year, guys would fly in from Torrey Pines or somewhere and get in and they're all disheveled and they're playing on live on Monday night.
Speaker A:It's like.
Speaker A:I think it's.
Speaker A:You know, they're expanding, trying to create a revenue stream through this TV show they've got with this leg.
Speaker B:Okay, last one.
Speaker B:This is going to hit close to home for you golf media.
Speaker A:There is none.
Speaker A:Nobody's left except newbies.
Speaker A:There's all these guys, and I give them credit.
Speaker A:These guys started a podcast or whatever or travel thing, and the next thing you know, they've got, you know, 300,000 listeners and.
Speaker A:And they've.
Speaker A:They've got a following.
Speaker A:I don't think any of them ever been to a tournament.
Speaker A:Yeah, I guess that doesn't matter anymore.
Speaker A:I guess experience and knowledge are less important than entertainment value.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And I'm not saying.
Speaker A:My neighbor who moved to Piners recently, he was always bugging me out.
Speaker A:Do you watch the Bryant Brothers or you watch.
Speaker A:You watch no laying up or this or that?
Speaker A:It's like, no, why would I watch?
Speaker A:Why do I want to watch guys who, you know, these other guys competing on the Internet?
Speaker A:Why would I want to gotch guys who aren't tour quality, but it's entertainment, so it's a different area.
Speaker A:I'm not in the entertainment business.
Speaker A:I'm in the.
Speaker A:I hate to say journalism, but, you know, we report.
Speaker A:You are comment on what's going on.
Speaker A:But even in the.
Speaker A:Even.
Speaker A:Here's my pet peeve, because I. I run the writing contest for the Golf Riders association, and I get judges set up.
Speaker A:I don't judge it.
Speaker A:But my pet peeve is what's changed in writing among the writers who are actually left is it used to be, oh, I've been assigned to.
Speaker A:I'm writing a story about Scotty Scheffler, okay?
Speaker A:Now, when the story comes out, the theme of the story is, hey, here, look at me.
Speaker A:Here I am writing a story about Scottie Scheffler.
Speaker A:It's all like.
Speaker A:So I asked Scotty what he thought.
Speaker A:We walked over to the cart.
Speaker A:I was like, you're the star of the story.
Speaker A:That's not how it works.
Speaker A:You're not the star.
Speaker A:Scotty's the star.
Speaker A:Get out of the way and write the story.
Speaker A:But that's the style now.
Speaker A:Everybody's trying to angle themselves and position themselves for a better gig because the writing thing's done.
Speaker B:He said bitterly, Well, I would agree with you, though.
Speaker B:Because, you know, we're, we're the same era.
Speaker B:And you touched on it right there.
Speaker B:Who's the story about?
Speaker B:Is it about you or is it about Scotty or Nelly or whoever you're writing about, you know, or interviewing?
Speaker B:And the other thing is, this is my personal pet peeve.
Speaker B:And this goes to the point of you, what you said about not having actual hands on experience, not about playing, but about, you know, covering tournaments and different things like that.
Speaker B:It's like, it's the in your face kind of presentation and the attitude like that.
Speaker B:And I know when I went to J school a million years ago,.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker B:Were taught how to ask tough questions, but we were also taught how to get to the point, get to the facts, you know.
Speaker B:And you can say this about anything on the Internet these days, as far as the who, what, where, how.
Speaker B:You know, those basic tenants, a lot of those are gone.
Speaker B:You know, they're not in the story.
Speaker A:So that's kind of, you know, it used to be when we interview, interviewed a player after his round, one of the common things was, you know, hey, can you go over your round?
Speaker A:And the common thing was tell us about the birdies, bogeys and saves.
Speaker A:Okay, so that might be six.
Speaker A:Oh, I hit a seven iron to four feet on one, made the putt.
Speaker A:You know, just run through it real quickly.
Speaker A:We don't ask that anymore.
Speaker A:In fact, most of the time there isn't even a question about his round.
Speaker A:But, you know, I mean, sometimes I'm there.
Speaker A:It's like, I know you made an eagle in 14.
Speaker A:What did you hit?
Speaker A:You know, how did you do it?
Speaker A:Because I can't get that off of the computer anywhere.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I don't know what you hit, what your life.
Speaker A:I mean, but nobody's there writing about the actual golf.
Speaker A:They're writing about some bigger issue or, you know, this is, if you win, you'd be the first player over 50.
Speaker A:I mean, it's.
Speaker A:And what's really sad is it's.
Speaker A:It's very hard to find a story from a LPJ event with many details about what happened or with quotes from the players.
Speaker A:Most of the time it's five paragraphs and it's just numbers, scores.
Speaker A:The Senior Tour, pga, sorry, PGA Tour Championship, they might as well not exist.
Speaker A:Good luck finding a story anywhere except on pgatour.com about what's happening in their tournament, wherever it is.
Speaker A:They have, they have evaporated.
Speaker A:They have no media presence in, you know, online.
Speaker A:You can't find stories about them unless, you know, like they were in Michigan last week.
Speaker A:They the Detroit paper had or covered it, or somebody in one of the papers did.
Speaker A:Other than that, everybody else's story is five paragraphs, just the numbers.
Speaker A:So I miss the days I used to work at Golf World Weekly years ago, and we'd have a big story on it from all the tours with photos, notes and quotes and stuff.
Speaker A:Now none of us know what's going on in any of these tours and we don't know that much what's going on on the PGA Tour either, because so few writers are there reporting on what's happening.
Speaker A:So there's a lot of good stories going unreported, but we don't even know what we're missing.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Gary, thank you, my friend, as always.
Speaker B:It's good to see you.
Speaker B:And like I said, at the top of the show, I always enjoy talking to you.
Speaker B:I really do.
Speaker A:It's not like it's work, Jeff.
Speaker A:It's fun.
Speaker B:It's fun.
Speaker B:That's going to wrap it for after hours for Gary and myself.
Speaker B:We thank you for listening.
Speaker B:We'll be back next week.
Speaker B:I don't know who with at this point, but I will share that next week.
Speaker B:Until then, go out, play some golf.
Speaker B:Have some fun.
Speaker B:Don't forget, you can listen to Gary's podcast, The Golf Show 2.0 with Kathy Bissell.
Speaker B:You can find that on all the platforms.
Speaker B:So until then, we'll see you later.
Speaker B:Take care.
