Shownotes
A Cry for Help in Veterinary Pathology, Burnout, Economics, Digitization, and AI with Dr. Eric Fish Dr. Eric Fish, DVM, DACVP, joins Dr. Andy Roark to tackle a tough question: Why does being a veterinary clinical pathologist feel darker right now, and what happens if AI turns “nice to have” diagnostics into “don’t need to have”? They unpack burnout and pay compression (including pathologists earning less than new grad GPs), consolidation in the lab market, and how digitization has pushed cytology toward point-of-care and high-volume “turn and burn” workflows with per-case bonuses that can be as low as $8 to $12. Eric explains how consultative lab medicine has shifted toward internists, why cytology’s cost and turnaround time are eroding its value, and what a better future could look like with AI that augments, triages, and keeps a human in the loop. Gang, let’s get into this episode. Keywords: veterinary pathology, clinical pathologist burnout, digital cytology, AI in veterinary medicine. Links: Substack newsletter All Science Great and Small; LinkedIn. Dr. Eric Fish is a veterinary clinical pathologist and laboratory director at a large private referral center, with a career spanning academia, entrepreneurship, and industry. He co-founded Lacuna Diagnostics, the first point-of-care digital cytology company, spent years at IDEXX as a diagnostician and technology scouting manager, and even found time to work occasional relief ER shifts. Eric brings a unique perspective to the conversation around artificial intelligence: he has not only used voice recognition and large language model AI tools in his own practice, but also worked on teams building computer vision applications for medical imaging. He writes about AI and other hot topics in veterinary medicine in his Substack newsletter, All Science Great & Small.
Transcripts
Welcome everybody it to the corner of Shame Veterinary Podcast.
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I am your host, Dr.
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And guys, I got a wild episode today.
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a cry for help.
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From your pathology friends, this is a
really interesting conversation with Dr.
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Eric Fish.
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He's a clinical pathologist.
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He writes a lot about pathology, about
science or medicine and about ai.
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And, he's been dark recently.
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He's been, he's been.
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He's been sharing, some views of the
veterinary pathology profession that
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are, that, dare I say pessimistic.
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It, it's, it looks like a dark
time for our pathology friends.
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And I, I just kept looking at
it and going, is that what it's
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like to be a clinical pathologist
in fact medicine, really?
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it's a fascinating conversation today.
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We talk through like, what
are the economic drivers.
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pathologists and the pathology
work in our profession.
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How is, veterinary pathology changing?
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What are pay structures
for pathologists today?
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And if you're just interested
in understanding how this
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piece of our profession works,
this is fascinating episode.
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It's really interesting.
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And also there's a lot of the
components that Eric talks about.
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That I could kind of extrapolate
into general practice as well.
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Pathology is interesting because
it's sort of similar to radiology
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and that it can be digitized and
has been digitized in a lot of ways.
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And also the experience the pathologists
have and the radiologists have,
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they, they're pretty different.
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And we get into why that is,
is Anyway, guys, this is a
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really interesting episode.
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I have not had a conversation
like this, that I can remember.
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I hope you guys will enjoy it.
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Let's get into it.
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Kelsey Beth Carpenter: This is your show.
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We're glad you're here.
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We want to help you in
your veterinary career.
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Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr.
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Andy Roark.
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
Welcome to the podcast, Dr.
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Eric Fish.
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How are you, my friend?
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Great.
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Thank you.
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I was very excited to be here.
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It's kinda like, when you listen to
the radio and someone says, "Longtime
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listener, first-time caller,"
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
Excellent.
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Well, thanks, thanks a lot
for making time for this.
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For those who don't know you, you
are a veterinary clinical pathologist
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and a laboratory director at a
large private referral center.
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you've done a ton of
things in your career.
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You've been academia,
you've been in industry.
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You have kind of worked all over
as a clinical pathologist, that's
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kind of where you come from.
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you write on Substack, and that's actually
where I became sort of aware of you.
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It's called All Science Great and Small.
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And
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: right.
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
of different things.
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yeah, you write about a lot of different
things, just generally in, in veterinary
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medicine and science in general.
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You write a lot about pathology
and the profession of veterinary
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pathology, and that's kinda what
I wanted to talk about today.
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I know that I'm talking to you, kind
of not as a representative any- of
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any company, anything like that.
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you know, this is, this is just 100%
you and me, just you and me talking.
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So,
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Absolutely.
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: yeah.
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So, l- let's, let's kinda,
let's kinda get into this.
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I wanna sort of give a, a, a
high-level idea of kinda what
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I've found most interesting.
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So you've been writing a lot recently,
and the thing that I've been sort of most
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surprised by, my feeling is that you are
a bit pessimistic about the future of the
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career path of veterinary pathologists.
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And so you, you put a number of
things out about how pathology as
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a, as a vocation i- is changing,
and specifically sort of how it's
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changing with AI and things like that.
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And I gotta tell you, Eric, I was really
blown away as I'm sort of reading through
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your sort of descriptions of, of how
technology is being used and how it is
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changing what has traditionally been
done by pathology and, and pathologists.
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and you kind of paint it, paint it
into sort of a dark picture here.
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Let me, let me hand this over to you.
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Can you talk to me at a high level
about sort of the state of clinical
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pathology as a practitioner?
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Sure, yeah.
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So I think what you're referring
to is a month or two ago I wrote
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something called A Cry for Help, and it
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yes.
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Yeah.
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: public, our, our
specialties journal, Veterinary Clinical
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Pathology, there was a large survey done
of European clinical pathologists, so
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Okay.
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: to the US,
but a lot of themes seem very similar.
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In, in very high levels, there was very
high levels of burnout, dissatisfaction.
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There were a lot of complaints about pay.
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And when you dig it down into the
detail, a lot of clinical pathologists,
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particularly in Europe, but also
frankly in, in North America, they're
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starting to make less than even
new grad general practitioners.
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And, you know, GP's work very hard.
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They generate a lot of revenue,
so that's nothing against them.
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But
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Sure.
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: cost spending
four to six years in advanced training,
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and then you're making less than someone
who got their DVM six months ago.
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So it's kinda crazy.
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And there's a number of reasons for this.
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It's not one.
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It's very multifactorial.
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part of it is clearly a story about
consolidation, particularly in the
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North-- in North America, there's a
handful of big labs that are probably
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eighty-five, ninety percent of the market.
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And then there's a few boutique labs,
a few people work in universities,
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but the, the main point of
action is the private lab sector.
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So anytime there's consolidation,
they have more power to set wages
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and policies, things like that.
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Part of it's definitely
a story about technology.
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Some of that is the transition to
digital, which I was a part of.
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I was involved with some companies
that did digital cytology.
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That has had a lot of positive impacts,
but there have also been some growing
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pains and disruption to the industry.
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So I think that's part of it.
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And AI is starting to creep in.
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I don't think it's at the point yet
where that is the main reason for some of
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Okay.
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: on the horizon.
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And there's d-- there's at least a couple
companies out there that are starting to
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market point-of-care analyzers for dig--
for cytology using AI to interpret them
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really without a person in the loop.
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And those are starting to get traction,
and I think that as that grows and
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they add more capabilities, it is gonna
start to eat into the lab business and
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likewise, the employment of pathologists.
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
Talk to me a little bit about
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how the day-to-day work that you
do as a pathologist has changed.
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And so when did you, when
did you become boarded?
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: did my residency
from twenty thirteen to twenty sixteen,
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so got boarded in twenty sixteen.
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I did stay on and do a PhD, so a
lot of path residencies are, are
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actually combined with graduate
training, particularly PhDs.
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So I finished that in twenty
nineteen, but I got board certified,
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by the ACVP in twenty sixteen.
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Okay.
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But you were actually working
towards being boarded as a
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pathologist in like 2013.
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Just in your career, so you're
th- 13-- over the last 13 years,
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Eric, tell, what has changed for
you in terms of doing this work?
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When you started your training, how
different is it now from the type of work
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that you were either doing or anticipated
doing when you started your training?
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Sure.
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So there's a couple
different dimensions to that.
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You know, starting training in a
university setting, I was at Auburn,
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and I stayed on for faculty there.
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It's a much more diverse role
when you're in a university.
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Part of what you're doing is
reading cytology and hematology
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slides, but you're also teaching.
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You may be doing research.
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You may be consulting with the
technologists who are running the
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chemistry panels, things like that.
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You may be having conversations
with clinicians for consults
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on weird test results.
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Whereas in the labs, your job is pretty
much ninety-seven percent just reading out
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cytology slides, almost like a machine.
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And that was one of the complaints
they called out in that European
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wellness survey, is that they did not
feel like they were utilizing their
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breadth of training and experience.
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So that's partly a sector
thing versus new technology.
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the biggest impact I've seen
really since starting, setting
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aside AI, is the digitization.
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So that has pushed more and more
cytology to the point of care.
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Instead of mailing things into a
big lab network, you may be having
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a scanner in your hospital that
beams it up to a, a contract group
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of pathologists in the cloud.
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And that can allow faster turnaround
times, but one of the things
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is not all the scanners can get
anywhere close to 100X resolution.
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So there are some optical limitations.
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So unlike digitization for radiologists,
where the transition was pretty smooth and
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there weren't really any handicaps from
the technology, in cytology, there are
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some things you just can't see on digital.
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So that has been a little
bit of a rocky transition.
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would say another big change has been,
frankly, the economics and the price.
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We're starting to see, you know, even when
I take my own pets in and they recommend
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cytology, it can be two hundred and fifty,
three hundred dollars to the end client.
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Okay.
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: some of the
things that happen with cytology is it's
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best used as a quick screening tool.
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So is it this or is it that?
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But when it takes seven days, ten
days to get your result back and it
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costs as much or more than a biopsy,
you're really starting to hurt the
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value of that rapid screening test.
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So I think some of the volume issues
and pay issues we're seeing with
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clinical pathology are really due
to those macroeconomic changes.
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So it's like the cost has gone way up,
and has been harder and harder to get
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some of those things in the turnaround
time where they're most useful.
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So I think some people are just
opting out of sending cytology, so
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even before you get to the AI piece.
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
Really?
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Okay.
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So there's, there's a lot of
things here to sort of unpack.
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Sure.
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
Talk to me a little bit more about
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the transition of pathology towards
this focus on cytology slides.
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You know, and so this is kind of something
that, that you wrote a bit about of,
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you know, 97% of the, of the work now
is just looking at cytology slides.
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I still think of, you know, histopath
and s- you know, biopsies and
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things like that, but it, it sounds
like that has sort of changed.
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Talk to me a little bit about that.
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My impression is just s- sort of from,
from reading through some of the patie-
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papers, there's some frustration around
the, the, the idea that basically we
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just, we're the readers of slides now.
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Talk, talk to me, u- unpack that for me.
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149:
Yeah, absolutely.
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in a perfect world, clinical
pathologists are supposed to be
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experts in laboratory medicine.
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So we're supposed to know how each one
of the parameters on a chem panel works,
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when they go wrong, what's causing the
error, talking about interpretation.
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A lot of that has sort of, in
an almost turf war way, been
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absorbed by other specialties.
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So internal medicine is often the go-to,
and many of these lab companies actually
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hire internists to be doing some of the
that I think in a previous era would have
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been handled by clinical pathologists.
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So
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Okay.
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: of some scope
creep and turf creep between those there.
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and yeah, I think that's the major part
for, like, why we're not doing a lot of
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that consultation on the lab diagnostics.
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And that's unfortunate 'cause it's
like a third of the training and
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the content that we go through.
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It's a third of our boards,
and you just never use it again
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once you finish residency for
most people who leave academia.
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
Why is that?
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Like, w- so yeah, why, why, I mean,
if, if, if clinical pathologists are
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trained for it and there's, you know,
there's people around to do the work,
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like why, why has that-- why have they
been kind of moved out of that role?
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Yeah,
I think there's just a perception
236
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that there's not the value add,
which is unfortunate, 'cause I think
237
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there's a huge amount of value add.
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I think clinicians are like, "Well,
I can interpret my own lab work," and
239
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internists are there for the kind of the
higher level consultat- consultations.
240
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And it just-- it's, it's actually
pretty similar to cytology.
241
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A lot of people have the
perception, "Well, I can do
242
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cytology in my clinic for $10.
243
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Why am I mailing it to a lab for this huge
price that the client doesn't wanna pay?"
244
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With histopathology and anatomic
pathologists, no one has a microtome,
245
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no one remembers histology.
246
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It's all kind of a nightmare from vet
school, so you're like, "Of course
247
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you have to send it to a specialist."
248
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The norms and the mores for
radiology have shifted very heavily
249
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towards, "You should probably have
a radiologist sign off on this."
250
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it's obviously not available everywhere,
and sometimes clients don't consent,
251
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but the norm has really shifted there.
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Whereas I think clinical pathologists
are viewed right now as a nice to have,
253
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and I think we're sliding towards maybe
a don't even need to have in the future,
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Wha-
255
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: have
been a must-have in the past.
256
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
why do you think people perceive
257
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radiology so differently?
258
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Like, why isn't it, those are
the same thing of, you know…
259
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it-- in both of these cases, it's kinda
like, well, we've got some information
260
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and I'm making a call based on this.
261
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You know, having someone who can,
who can verify or validate, there,
262
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there seems to be value there.
263
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Like, why, why don't
you perceive the, the…
264
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Why, why does, why is radiology
going in, in a different
265
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direction in people's minds?
266
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Yeah,
I'm not really sure about that.
267
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I think their, their journey from the
traditional dipping films and chemical
268
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vats to digitization has played out a
little differently than pathology for
269
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a variety of granular detailed reasons.
270
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I think part of it is there might be
more of a shorter loop on feedback.
271
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So you take an X-ray of something,
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
273
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149:
surgical or there's nodules, and
274
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pretty soon you're often gonna
275
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
That's right
276
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eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: there's
just-- that, that would be my
277
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guess is that there's not as
much of a tight correlation.
278
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Like, you know, r-radiology
plays really nicely with surgery.
279
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So a lot of those things, you're
gonna go to surgery and you saw
280
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it or you didn't, and then you're
gonna refine your own mental model.
281
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When I saw this in a patient, it was that,
and then it was confirmed when I took it
282
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to surgery or referred it for surgery.
283
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So that would be my guess.
284
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I, I don't know.
285
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I, I do think partly for cost reasons,
a lot of people don't consent to
286
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histopathology, so a lot of times whoever
looked at the cyto is the last word.
287
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And if that was someone who looked
in-house, they think that they were right.
288
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
289
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Yeah.
290
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It's like, let's just call, let's
call it right and no one will
291
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ever come along behind us and, and
correct us, so we're taking the win.
292
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Okay.
293
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when you look into the future,
where do you see this going?
294
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Do you think that there's a possibility
that, you know, like maybe, maybe
295
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shortened turnaround time on pathology
is gonna kind of thrust it back into, i-
296
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into a, a more, you know, favorable light
in terms of, you know, what we, what we,
297
00:13:23,470 --> 00:13:25,470
how we use it in, in cl- in the clinics?
298
00:13:25,770 --> 00:13:29,720
Or do you think that AI is
going to further kind of push,
299
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push pathology down the list?
300
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Well, it, you've, you've kind of, you've--
I've seen you sort of talk both ways.
301
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I mean, I think you clearly really
enjoy being a pathologist, and also
302
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,490
you seem to have some, some concerns.
303
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,390
Where, where do you
really think this goes?
304
00:13:44,030 --> 00:13:44,370
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Yeah.
305
00:13:44,370 --> 00:13:48,690
So I'll, I'll-- a couple years ago, I
did a talk on AI and medical imaging,
306
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and it was focused on pathology, but
also talked a little about radiology.
307
00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:54,480
And I had a slide in there
that said, "I am ambivalent
308
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:55,820
about artificial intelligence."
309
00:13:55,890 --> 00:13:59,340
And I think a lot of people when they hear
the word ambivalent think someone means,
310
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like, disinterested or they don't care,
when really if, if you break it down, ambi
311
00:14:03,810 --> 00:14:05,980
is both and valent is a strong opinion.
312
00:14:05,980 --> 00:14:09,450
So it means you have conflicting
and equally strong opinions.
313
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dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
314
00:14:09,980 --> 00:14:12,730
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: of positive
and negative thoughts about AI.
315
00:14:12,750 --> 00:14:15,410
you know, if you're a fan of "The
X-Files," one of the things Mulder
316
00:14:15,410 --> 00:14:17,020
used to say is, "I want to believe."
317
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:17,490
I wanna
318
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,300
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
I want to believe.
319
00:14:19,450 --> 00:14:20,610
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149:
makes us more efficient,
320
00:14:20,970 --> 00:14:21,280
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
321
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,250
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: patients by
getting better at catching things that
322
00:14:24,250 --> 00:14:25,500
you wouldn't have seen on the X-ray.
323
00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:30,160
It makes us enjoy our jobs more because
it gets rid of some of the scut work,
324
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:34,240
like just kinda doing mindless counting
or mitotic counts, things like that,
325
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,860
and really helps us focus on the thought
work and providing care for patients.
326
00:14:38,123 --> 00:14:42,730
What I am seeing over the last few years
Is not a lot of data to support this.
327
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,470
I'm seeing what little data emerges
that's independent, the performance is
328
00:14:47,470 --> 00:14:49,140
often a little lackluster in my opinion.
329
00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:54,020
And the model we're moving towards is
not augmentation, it's replacement.
330
00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,950
So we're pitching boxes that you
can buy from-- for $5,000, or you
331
00:14:58,950 --> 00:15:00,943
get it into your lab contract.
332
00:15:01,113 --> 00:15:04,603
And for a low consumable cost,
you can get a pathology read.
333
00:15:05,043 --> 00:15:09,423
And that is going to, I think, be very
attractive to a lot of practices in
334
00:15:09,423 --> 00:15:12,503
this environment where a lot of clients
are very concerned about costs, people
335
00:15:12,503 --> 00:15:13,923
are concerned about turnaround time.
336
00:15:13,923 --> 00:15:18,433
So don't think that future is inevitable,
but I'm worried that's the model a lot
337
00:15:18,433 --> 00:15:20,793
of the big stakeholders are looking for.
338
00:15:20,823 --> 00:15:24,473
And, and frankly, it's because
they wanna reduce their own costs.
339
00:15:24,593 --> 00:15:25,123
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
Oh, sure.
340
00:15:25,253 --> 00:15:27,573
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: a pretty big
cost center for a lot of these major labs.
341
00:15:27,573 --> 00:15:31,856
So, you know, you don't wanna infer
negative, motivations on the part of some
342
00:15:31,856 --> 00:15:35,596
of these people, but I, I do worry that a
big part of it is about cost savings more
343
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than medical quality or efficiency per se.
344
00:15:38,516 --> 00:15:38,806
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
345
00:15:39,010 --> 00:15:41,700
there's-- the thing in my mind is, you
know, you're not gonna lose your job to
346
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:45,010
AI, you'll lose your job to someone who's
using AI, and it's like, I imagine…
347
00:15:45,050 --> 00:15:48,700
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: people say that
all the time, and it's just become such a
348
00:15:48,750 --> 00:15:49,060
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
it's so
349
00:15:49,143 --> 00:15:50,123
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149:
kind of annoys me
350
00:15:50,203 --> 00:15:51,083
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
It's-- Oh, it's so-- I think
351
00:15:51,083 --> 00:15:51,943
it's, I think it's super annoying.
352
00:15:51,973 --> 00:15:53,333
It sa- it means nothing.
353
00:15:53,333 --> 00:15:56,263
Like, there's no real wisdom there,
and people say it all the time.
354
00:15:56,613 --> 00:15:58,723
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: and
it's really just kind of a frankly
355
00:15:58,723 --> 00:16:00,891
self-serving kind of, aphorism.
356
00:16:00,891 --> 00:16:04,201
You're like, "Well, Skynet's coming, so
I might as well help it get here faster."
357
00:16:04,241 --> 00:16:04,811
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
Yeah, totally.
358
00:16:05,261 --> 00:16:05,891
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149:
I don't know about
359
00:16:06,221 --> 00:16:06,501
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
360
00:16:06,551 --> 00:16:09,771
Oh, it, it's definitely, it definitely
write, writes off sort of your,
361
00:16:09,771 --> 00:16:11,781
your role in the whole play of like,
362
00:16:11,881 --> 00:16:12,431
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Yeah, you
363
00:16:12,581 --> 00:16:13,101
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
this is…"
364
00:16:13,131 --> 00:16:13,881
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: hands.
365
00:16:14,041 --> 00:16:15,221
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
It, it, it really is.
366
00:16:17,984 --> 00:16:24,285
do you think that, efficiency in
pathology has been increasing?
367
00:16:24,285 --> 00:16:25,925
Do, you know, do you feel like…
368
00:16:26,125 --> 00:16:26,785
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Absolutely.
369
00:16:26,785 --> 00:16:29,485
I mean, if you look at the data,
I-- some of my journey, I've worked
370
00:16:29,485 --> 00:16:33,005
at a couple corporate labs, and the
internal turnaround data, obviously
371
00:16:33,005 --> 00:16:34,725
can't share, but it's quite fast.
372
00:16:34,725 --> 00:16:35,815
It's minutes per slide.
373
00:16:35,815 --> 00:16:39,535
I mean, the idea-- the, the rate
that we train in a residency for
374
00:16:39,535 --> 00:16:42,145
your board exam when the format was a
little different and you had to read
375
00:16:42,145 --> 00:16:45,795
a whole flat of slides was about 12
minutes a case, and you had one slide.
376
00:16:46,065 --> 00:16:46,345
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Okay.
377
00:16:46,545 --> 00:16:47,695
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: a
pretty challenging case, but
378
00:16:47,695 --> 00:16:48,755
you had 12 minutes per slide.
379
00:16:48,755 --> 00:16:50,515
That was kind of the benchmark rate.
380
00:16:50,875 --> 00:16:54,225
It's well below seven to eight
minutes in most of the labs.
381
00:16:54,225 --> 00:16:56,895
And a lot of them are you've got
pathologists reading four or five minutes.
382
00:16:56,895 --> 00:16:58,695
It is lightning fast.
383
00:16:59,405 --> 00:17:02,485
And that's part of the burnout
piece, is people feel like
384
00:17:02,485 --> 00:17:04,055
they're just turning and burning.
385
00:17:04,055 --> 00:17:05,035
They're not putting the thought
386
00:17:05,244 --> 00:17:05,545
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
387
00:17:05,625 --> 00:17:06,744
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: You're
like, "Well, maybe I missed
388
00:17:06,744 --> 00:17:09,265
something on that case, but I do
not have time to call the client.
389
00:17:09,265 --> 00:17:12,125
I don't have time to look something up
and give it a little bit more thought."
390
00:17:12,375 --> 00:17:15,675
and I think for people in a certain
part of the profession, they
391
00:17:15,675 --> 00:17:17,145
may turn towards boutique labs.
392
00:17:17,145 --> 00:17:18,565
You're like, "I wanna work
with a pathologist where I
393
00:17:18,565 --> 00:17:19,805
have a personal relationship."
394
00:17:20,045 --> 00:17:22,565
Maybe the volumes are lower,
the price is higher, but that
395
00:17:22,565 --> 00:17:23,484
doesn't work for everyone.
396
00:17:23,484 --> 00:17:26,515
So most people are kinda pigeonholed
into one of the big labs,
397
00:17:26,755 --> 00:17:27,035
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
398
00:17:27,045 --> 00:17:27,805
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: very high volume
399
00:17:28,214 --> 00:17:30,335
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
Is, is the compensation in those labs,
400
00:17:30,335 --> 00:17:32,625
is it, is it done on a per case basis?
401
00:17:32,625 --> 00:17:33,585
Or, I mean, is there…
402
00:17:33,585 --> 00:17:37,045
I'm just trying to think about kind
of like, in, in my, in my mind, what
403
00:17:37,045 --> 00:17:39,265
you're describing feels a lot like Uber.
404
00:17:39,605 --> 00:17:40,205
It feels
405
00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:40,640
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Yeah.
406
00:17:40,825 --> 00:17:43,235
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
you just, you flip on the meter and
407
00:17:43,235 --> 00:17:46,765
you drive for, you know, as long as
you kinda want, and the number of trips
408
00:17:46,765 --> 00:17:49,345
you make or the number of miles you
drive is kinda what you get paid for,
409
00:17:49,345 --> 00:17:51,115
and you, you flip the meter back off.
410
00:17:51,115 --> 00:17:55,595
Is that kind of where pathology is
going into this kind of Uber-ification
411
00:17:55,595 --> 00:17:57,385
of, of this part of medicine?
412
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,300
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Yeah, so the
old model was most people were on salary,
413
00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:03,980
and you could kind of think of it almost
like as a form of pro sale, where if you
414
00:18:04,085 --> 00:18:04,395
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
415
00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:06,360
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: expected
benchmark, you would often
416
00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:08,070
get a pay-by-case bonus above.
417
00:18:08,430 --> 00:18:09,780
they're, they're pretty modest.
418
00:18:09,830 --> 00:18:12,630
if you had to guess, what
would you say the pay-by-case
419
00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:14,450
bonus is at most of these labs?
420
00:18:14,515 --> 00:18:16,115
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
I, I have, I have no idea.
421
00:18:16,115 --> 00:18:17,185
I'm trying to think, you know?
422
00:18:17,185 --> 00:18:20,675
So he's doing the cytology slides,
it's, you know, $300 to the clients.
423
00:18:20,675 --> 00:18:22,705
I'm like, I don't know, 20 or $30?
424
00:18:22,785 --> 00:18:22,945
Uh.
425
00:18:23,670 --> 00:18:26,580
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: So there's a few
places where you get that, but a lot of
426
00:18:26,580 --> 00:18:29,600
them it's honestly about eight, 10, $12.
427
00:18:29,635 --> 00:18:29,965
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Okay.
428
00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:32,270
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149:
Europe, it's as low as $5 a case.
429
00:18:32,295 --> 00:18:32,685
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Okay.
430
00:18:32,950 --> 00:18:35,390
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: you know, you
can see how people feel pretty squeezed.
431
00:18:35,660 --> 00:18:36,990
the s- the salaries aren't great.
432
00:18:37,020 --> 00:18:38,410
The pay-by-case isn't great.
433
00:18:38,410 --> 00:18:41,500
And so some of the people who do wanna
make a lot of money, and we all have
434
00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:45,900
huge student debt now, they end up just
reading these astronomical case volumes.
435
00:18:46,455 --> 00:18:46,875
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Wow.
436
00:18:47,270 --> 00:18:50,130
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: the number
of slides you're supposed to read for
437
00:18:50,130 --> 00:18:54,810
cytology in human medicine in the US
is legally capped at 100 slides a day.
438
00:18:55,140 --> 00:18:59,600
And I would say people in the big labs are
often reading multiples of that every day.
439
00:18:59,835 --> 00:19:00,195
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Wow.
440
00:19:00,349 --> 00:19:01,639
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149:
it, it's very high volume.
441
00:19:01,639 --> 00:19:04,509
And yeah, the Uberification is
definitely a thing that started to
442
00:19:04,509 --> 00:19:08,249
frankly come with, digital cytology
and more of kind of freelance model.
443
00:19:08,249 --> 00:19:11,589
And, and I own up to, you know,
I started Lacuna Diagnostics, and
444
00:19:11,589 --> 00:19:13,419
we relied a lot on contractors, so
445
00:19:24,112 --> 00:19:37,027
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
446
00:19:37,052 --> 00:19:38,962
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149:
our roads have diverged, even
447
00:19:38,962 --> 00:19:40,172
if the models are similar on
448
00:19:40,327 --> 00:19:40,577
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
449
00:19:40,677 --> 00:19:43,737
If it-- I feel like if you hadn't done
it, someone else would've done it.
450
00:19:43,737 --> 00:19:47,617
Everybody's looking from a, you know,
an entrepreneur standpoint, everybody's
451
00:19:47,617 --> 00:19:52,707
looking at how to, at how to scale,
you know, the program that they do.
452
00:19:52,997 --> 00:19:56,627
Everybody is looking for how to have
this model where you can, you know,
453
00:19:56,627 --> 00:20:00,687
have a flexible workforce that can work
as much as they want, and then you can
454
00:20:00,687 --> 00:20:02,247
keep them as independent contractors.
455
00:20:02,547 --> 00:20:05,827
I don't think that there was
anything shockingly novel.
456
00:20:05,827 --> 00:20:08,417
No offense, but I don't feel like
there's anything shockingly novel about
457
00:20:08,417 --> 00:20:10,037
this that like, you know what I mean?
458
00:20:10,037 --> 00:20:11,337
Other, other people wouldn't
459
00:20:11,562 --> 00:20:13,152
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149:
Technology was the novel piece.
460
00:20:13,152 --> 00:20:16,492
Yeah, the idea-- I mean, like the brick
and mortar era with glass slides, there
461
00:20:16,492 --> 00:20:18,012
were contractors at all the big labs.
462
00:20:18,012 --> 00:20:18,252
So
463
00:20:18,697 --> 00:20:19,247
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
464
00:20:19,302 --> 00:20:19,582
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: with that.
465
00:20:19,582 --> 00:20:22,162
It made it maybe change the
volume and the pace and the
466
00:20:22,162 --> 00:20:23,642
kinetics and some of the policies.
467
00:20:23,642 --> 00:20:27,242
But yeah, and part of this is, you
know, I did-- after vet school,
468
00:20:27,242 --> 00:20:28,562
I did a rotating internship.
469
00:20:28,562 --> 00:20:30,822
I worked ER relief for a number of years.
470
00:20:31,062 --> 00:20:33,822
I saw how impactful it could
be when you couldn't get those
471
00:20:33,822 --> 00:20:35,102
cytology results for a few days.
472
00:20:35,102 --> 00:20:35,292
So
473
00:20:35,407 --> 00:20:35,747
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
474
00:20:35,802 --> 00:20:38,752
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: my driving force
for going towards digital was to really
475
00:20:38,752 --> 00:20:42,732
get those results when they matter in a
matter of hours rather than days or weeks.
476
00:20:42,832 --> 00:20:44,562
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
there's something like if you said, "Oh,
477
00:20:45,002 --> 00:20:49,852
Henry Ford and his assembly line, look
at all the, the pain that he brought."
478
00:20:49,852 --> 00:20:51,272
And you go, "Well, it's a tool."
479
00:20:51,272 --> 00:20:52,612
Like this is a, it's a tool.
480
00:20:52,612 --> 00:20:53,752
It's a way of doing things.
481
00:20:53,752 --> 00:20:55,032
It's wildly efficient.
482
00:20:55,032 --> 00:20:56,562
It, it created a lot of opportunities.
483
00:20:56,932 --> 00:21:01,612
And there are some people who apply
that tool in a, less than ideal
484
00:21:01,612 --> 00:21:04,002
way or there's, you know, there's
definitely people who have worked on
485
00:21:04,002 --> 00:21:07,252
inch- assembly lines and, and been
miserable and had their health and
486
00:21:07,252 --> 00:21:08,862
safety discounted and things like that.
487
00:21:08,862 --> 00:21:10,592
And so to me, it's kind of the same thing.
488
00:21:10,592 --> 00:21:13,422
It, it's, it's there's ways
of doing things and, you know,
489
00:21:13,422 --> 00:21:14,652
how do people apply those?
490
00:21:14,652 --> 00:21:17,862
I, I think the idea, you know, you
look at the radiologists and they're,
491
00:21:17,862 --> 00:21:19,452
they're doing, they're doing quite well.
492
00:21:19,452 --> 00:21:22,999
I, I think that that's an important
point in sort of how much, how much
493
00:21:22,999 --> 00:21:24,289
responsibility you take, how do
494
00:21:24,289 --> 00:21:27,129
you, you know, how do you, how
do you feel about how things sort
495
00:21:27,129 --> 00:21:28,579
of, things sort of shook out,
496
00:21:29,369 --> 00:21:32,819
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: And to extend
that further, we now pine for the
497
00:21:32,819 --> 00:21:36,849
days when everyone worked these good
manufacturing jobs on the factory floor.
498
00:21:36,899 --> 00:21:37,949
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Sure.
499
00:21:38,259 --> 00:21:39,979
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: towards
the knowledge work economy, we have a
500
00:21:39,979 --> 00:21:44,279
different set of problems, but we're
longing for this halcyon era that may
501
00:21:44,529 --> 00:21:47,769
have either never existed or not been
as good as we remember it with the
502
00:21:47,769 --> 00:21:49,749
rose-colored glasses looking backwards.
503
00:21:49,959 --> 00:21:52,929
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
Yeah, I, I, I think I, I may be a, a bit
504
00:21:52,929 --> 00:21:55,149
naive in some ways, but I, I really…
505
00:21:55,399 --> 00:22:01,129
I have this idea that I, I would like
to see, I would like to see industry
506
00:22:01,129 --> 00:22:07,239
in America go towards this, not just
maximizing revenue, but, but having an
507
00:22:07,239 --> 00:22:11,809
optimization of revenue, like purpose,
meaning like the, the good you do
508
00:22:11,809 --> 00:22:14,909
in the world, and then environment,
which is how you treat your people.
509
00:22:15,259 --> 00:22:17,639
And so I just think wouldn't it be
great if you could have a profitable
510
00:22:17,639 --> 00:22:21,189
business that had a purpose and
that you treated your people well?
511
00:22:21,379 --> 00:22:22,609
Like, is that too much to ask?
512
00:22:22,609 --> 00:22:29,419
And again, if, if you measure all of your
success based on your quarterly earnings
513
00:22:29,419 --> 00:22:33,529
and your stock performance, it's, it's,
it, it contradicts exactly what I'm asking
514
00:22:33,529 --> 00:22:37,549
for, but I, I miss, I miss those days
and I, you know, I, I would like to see,
515
00:22:37,829 --> 00:22:40,509
I would like to see more companies kind
of focusing on balancing those things.
516
00:22:41,228 --> 00:22:41,718
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Absolutely.
517
00:22:41,948 --> 00:22:45,778
I, I may also be naive, but I,
I was taught and I still believe
518
00:22:46,108 --> 00:22:47,518
good medicine is good business.
519
00:22:47,518 --> 00:22:52,318
And I think that there should be room
for us to turn a profit with a good
520
00:22:52,418 --> 00:22:54,468
patient-focused, client-focused service.
521
00:22:54,468 --> 00:22:57,418
And I, I do think we've
tilted more towards one side.
522
00:22:57,448 --> 00:23:00,638
but part of why that happened is for
a long time veterinarians weren't
523
00:23:00,638 --> 00:23:01,948
particularly good business people.
524
00:23:02,178 --> 00:23:05,698
We didn't run things well, and it was
rife for having people with MBAs to come
525
00:23:05,698 --> 00:23:07,368
in and tell us how to lose less money.
526
00:23:07,519 --> 00:23:07,779
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
527
00:23:07,959 --> 00:23:12,549
No, I, I, I, I do, I do think
that we have made our bed to some
528
00:23:12,549 --> 00:23:14,029
degree for that, for that reason.
529
00:23:14,029 --> 00:23:17,429
Again, I, I love, I love being
a veterinarian and I love vets.
530
00:23:17,969 --> 00:23:22,890
I, I think our-- we had a pretty strong
anti-business mindset, and I think it
531
00:23:22,890 --> 00:23:27,560
left the door open for, for others to come
in and, and, and grab up opportunities
532
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,290
that we were, that we were leaving,
hoping no one else would pick up.
533
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,090
And so I think that that's, I think that
that's something, that's something I wish
534
00:23:34,090 --> 00:23:37,240
we could go back and change, but I think
it sort of-- it is, it is where it is.
535
00:23:37,540 --> 00:23:42,060
Eric, it's five years in the future,
and the pendulum has swung back the
536
00:23:42,060 --> 00:23:45,840
other way, and pathology is great.
537
00:23:46,327 --> 00:23:47,237
What does that look like?
538
00:23:47,237 --> 00:23:47,897
What has happened?
539
00:23:47,897 --> 00:23:52,247
What, what-- Just leave, leave
me on a happy note of what
540
00:23:52,247 --> 00:23:53,137
happens if this is great?
541
00:23:53,407 --> 00:23:57,327
What happens if this
really goes well from here?
542
00:23:58,182 --> 00:23:58,612
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Sure.
543
00:23:58,662 --> 00:24:00,212
Well, I'll take that into a couple pieces.
544
00:24:00,212 --> 00:24:05,972
So one, on the volume and economic
piece, counter to a lot of my concerns
545
00:24:05,972 --> 00:24:07,962
is something called Jevons paradox,
546
00:24:08,007 --> 00:24:08,197
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Okay.
547
00:24:08,197 --> 00:24:08,337
Okay.
548
00:24:08,352 --> 00:24:10,972
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: an economist
in the industrial era in Britain.
549
00:24:11,302 --> 00:24:14,762
And he noticed that when, James Watt
came out with his more efficient steam
550
00:24:14,762 --> 00:24:18,362
engine, a lot of these things that
were consumed in terms of coal and
551
00:24:18,362 --> 00:24:22,877
everything else from going down because
it was more efficient, they shot way up.
552
00:24:23,187 --> 00:24:27,787
And it's since been applied to mean
any time a resource or technology makes
553
00:24:27,787 --> 00:24:31,827
something cheaper or more efficient, it
tends to increase utilization of that.
554
00:24:32,077 --> 00:24:34,217
So we've seen that even in lab medicine.
555
00:24:34,217 --> 00:24:38,077
So in the old days, people did
a CBC by actually doing all
556
00:24:38,077 --> 00:24:39,787
the different assays by hand.
557
00:24:39,787 --> 00:24:43,287
They would be doing a hemocytometer count,
things that would be unimaginable today.
558
00:24:43,577 --> 00:24:48,177
But you really can't do 40, 50, 60 CBCs
a day even in a small lab doing that.
559
00:24:48,397 --> 00:24:51,517
So as we started to get these high-powered
instruments, both like a little point
560
00:24:51,517 --> 00:24:55,597
of care thing like a Procyte or bigger
systems like a Sysmex analyzer or
561
00:24:55,597 --> 00:24:59,217
an ADVIA hematology analyzer, the
volumes exploded and went way up.
562
00:24:59,217 --> 00:25:02,257
So the business side may
work itself in terms of that.
563
00:25:02,717 --> 00:25:06,027
In terms of how AI is gonna be
applied to our workflows, the
564
00:25:06,027 --> 00:25:09,177
positive version of this is what we're
starting to see in human medicine.
565
00:25:09,497 --> 00:25:12,497
So they have a lot of strict
regulations that we do not at all
566
00:25:12,497 --> 00:25:16,407
have in human medicine, and so they
have to treat AI and other forms
567
00:25:16,407 --> 00:25:17,897
of software as a medical device.
568
00:25:17,977 --> 00:25:20,867
So there's a lot of scrutiny in
there, and as a result, their model
569
00:25:20,867 --> 00:25:24,537
has not been automated diagnosis
straight to the end user clinician.
570
00:25:24,757 --> 00:25:26,487
it is more of an assistive capacity.
571
00:25:26,677 --> 00:25:30,707
So they do things like there are different
softwares that predict a cancer grade.
572
00:25:30,707 --> 00:25:33,577
For prostate cancer, it'll give
you a Gleason score, and it'll
573
00:25:33,577 --> 00:25:36,677
show you its work, and the
pathologist can accept or reject it.
574
00:25:36,907 --> 00:25:40,437
So it makes things a little faster, but
it's also a person's in the loop calling
575
00:25:40,467 --> 00:25:41,797
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
576
00:25:41,807 --> 00:25:43,767
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: had a bunch
of tools like that and it was very
577
00:25:43,767 --> 00:25:45,647
modular, I would actually love that.
578
00:25:45,677 --> 00:25:48,157
That would be great to be able to
be like, "Hey, it caught something
579
00:25:48,157 --> 00:25:51,237
I missed on s- on my fourth case
of the day that was really tricky."
580
00:25:51,827 --> 00:25:55,988
Some places are using it to triage
triage up the harder cases higher in
581
00:25:55,988 --> 00:25:59,328
the queue earlier in the day, so that
by the time you're burned out at 4:00,
582
00:25:59,328 --> 00:26:02,718
5:00, 6:00 at night, you're reading
your lipomas and your dumb stuff.
583
00:26:02,758 --> 00:26:05,478
But the hard, challenging
cases, the suspected cancer
584
00:26:05,478 --> 00:26:06,608
cases come early in the day.
585
00:26:06,638 --> 00:26:07,748
I think that's a great use.
586
00:26:08,205 --> 00:26:11,215
of the uses we're seeing at some of
the companies for radiology are great.
587
00:26:11,215 --> 00:26:15,135
They're applying vertebral heart scores
or their automated measuring of TPLO
588
00:26:15,135 --> 00:26:19,125
things, but they're not saying, "This
dog has a stage two osteosarcoma.
589
00:26:19,125 --> 00:26:20,005
You should euthanize it."
590
00:26:20,005 --> 00:26:24,575
They're very applied tools that are gonna
be saving time but also have the ability
591
00:26:24,835 --> 00:26:28,625
to be changed or accepted or rejected
by the clinician or the radiologist.
592
00:26:28,885 --> 00:26:29,995
So I think those two things.
593
00:26:29,995 --> 00:26:34,665
So economics may sort itself out, and I
think that if we start using this in a
594
00:26:34,665 --> 00:26:38,615
fashion where it's very much augmenting
human intelligence, I think that that
595
00:26:38,615 --> 00:26:41,045
could make our role more interesting.
596
00:26:41,045 --> 00:26:44,599
We could be focusing more on the harder
cases and not as much rote nonsense.
597
00:26:44,599 --> 00:26:48,109
I do worry that the piece in veterinary
medicine is gonna focus very much on the
598
00:26:48,109 --> 00:26:51,849
point of care, so people aren't even going
to be sending those cases to the lab.
599
00:26:51,849 --> 00:26:55,329
That's where the analogy could
break down from previous things.
600
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:57,839
You know, there-- everyone
says this time's different.
601
00:26:57,839 --> 00:26:59,619
Well, this time may be different with AI.
602
00:26:59,669 --> 00:27:01,719
I don't know that it will
be, but I worry it might
603
00:27:01,914 --> 00:27:02,114
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150: Yeah.
604
00:27:02,354 --> 00:27:03,034
Well, Dr.
605
00:27:03,034 --> 00:27:05,594
Eric Fish, thanks so much for being
here and talking through this with me.
606
00:27:05,594 --> 00:27:06,924
Where can people find you online?
607
00:27:07,396 --> 00:27:09,579
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: obviously
on LinkedIn I post things there.
608
00:27:09,579 --> 00:27:12,129
A lot of it is cross-posts for
my newsletter, Science Great
609
00:27:12,129 --> 00:27:13,229
and Small, which you can find.
610
00:27:13,509 --> 00:27:14,609
We've got in the show notes here.
611
00:27:14,609 --> 00:27:17,129
So I, I write a lot about AI,
but that's not the only thing.
612
00:27:17,129 --> 00:27:19,059
I break down a lot of different studies.
613
00:27:19,059 --> 00:27:22,669
I write about some of the big macro
trends in veterinary medicine, for both
614
00:27:22,669 --> 00:27:24,559
the clinical side and the pathology side.
615
00:27:24,559 --> 00:27:26,369
So people enjoy it.
616
00:27:26,505 --> 00:27:26,955
dr--andy-roark-_1_05-05-2026_141150:
Excellent.
617
00:27:27,075 --> 00:27:28,405
Thank you so much for all you do.
618
00:27:28,405 --> 00:27:29,985
Guys, thanks for tuning in, everybody.
619
00:27:29,985 --> 00:27:30,885
Take care of yourselves, gang.
620
00:27:31,076 --> 00:27:31,526
eric_1_05-05-2026_141149: Thanks a lot
621
00:27:31,742 --> 00:27:32,912
Speaker 2: And that's our episode.
622
00:27:32,912 --> 00:27:34,022
Thanks to, Dr.
623
00:27:34,022 --> 00:27:35,042
Eric Fish for being here.
624
00:27:35,042 --> 00:27:36,092
Guys, thanks for tuning in.
625
00:27:36,092 --> 00:27:37,232
I hope this was interesting for you.
626
00:27:37,282 --> 00:27:41,872
as always, if you, if you like the
episode, go ahead and do the things
627
00:27:41,872 --> 00:27:43,462
that people do when they like podcasts.
628
00:27:43,492 --> 00:27:45,542
like share, subscribe.
629
00:27:45,637 --> 00:27:47,017
Send it to a friend.
630
00:27:47,197 --> 00:27:48,337
All of those of Right.
631
00:27:48,367 --> 00:27:49,957
A fan mail to me.
632
00:27:50,042 --> 00:27:52,237
I, I, I would take that, that
would be a, that would be a
633
00:27:52,237 --> 00:27:53,827
thing that I would be okay with.
634
00:27:54,007 --> 00:27:56,557
Anyway, guys, I'm messing around.
635
00:27:56,557 --> 00:27:58,087
Have a wonderful day.
636
00:27:58,117 --> 00:27:59,377
Thanks for tuning in and listening.
637
00:27:59,557 --> 00:28:00,474
I'll talk to you later on.