We're pulling this one from the ancient Patreon archives for our main feed listeners. It was such an honor to meet and interview legendary screenwriter Peter Iliff. We spent most of our time talking about how his career which started with him waiting tables until he sold the early draft of Point Break to Ridley Scott. The story is truly incredible, including James Cameron buying the property from Scott and polishing the final version of the script. Iliff would go on to write more fantastic films including Varsity Blues, and Patriot Games. He's also come into his own as a director.

Lastly, if you've ever has aspirations to write a screenplay, this is the podcast for you. Peter goes through what it's like to write in today's Hollywood and provides tips for future screenwriters.

What a great convo!

[00:00:15] Peter Iliff: It's all good, baby. Thanks for inviting me to chit chat about one of my favorite periods of my life, doing Point

[00:00:32] We had a VHS player and he had like recorded VHSs and obviously that wasn't illegal, but I had a tape that had point break RoboCop. And I basically, it was like an action VHS. And every week, even as a young lad, I would just put that in just top to bottom of the RoboCop point break. It was like a weekly regimen for me as a kid.

[00:01:06] Well,

[00:01:28] And so I would [00:01:30] like have to like, you know, go over to Paramount where the film shipping was with all of that's incredible film cans. And, and, uh, while I was on the lot, I would like pass out my early scripts. Yeah. Because not only that, I'd find their copy machines because it used to cost 10 bucks to make a copy at print land and who had that kind of money.

[00:02:10] I was able to write. A couple more scripts. And then I was waiting tables and um, and uh, I got hired. I met a great guy, Rick King, who directed some smaller films, some cool films. Rick's a great dude. We became best friends over some good weed and some tequila. He had this [00:02:30] idea about high school surfers who rob banks.

[00:03:03] Mm-Hmm. So like, this was the man, you know, he'd done legend. The cruise thing with the unicorn, kind of, kind of wonky someone to watch over me was a little, was was cool. Tom Beringer and he was our dude. And, um, a year passed of working with Ridley. And then one day the studio Columbia changed hands and Ridley went off and did a film called Black Rain with, um, a little known actor named Michael [00:03:30] Douglas.

[00:03:55] Which was, it's a great freaking film. Yes. And, uh, [00:04:00] who knows who the girl was going to be? Cause that was kind of the fourth casting element. It's amazing how, because the transition of the studio and really taking a great film, black rain, I mean, I love that film, so I'm kind of glad it happened. Four years passed.

[00:04:43] So, um, give him full credit for a lot of the scenes, like the very original lawnmower scene. So we're going to push Utah's face. And that's all Cameron.

[00:05:00] I was like, I love how that lawnmower, even though it's an old school lawnmower is loud enough to distort the SWAT team's ability to communicate with Utah. He's like, Oh, this damn lawnmower.

[00:05:23] Like, oh, the lawnmower is messing up the ability to talk. So therefore this chaos [00:05:30] ensues and that allows that to happen. Then if you had a director note, ah, well, they make it a silent lawnmower. Well, but then we lost. Nothing else makes sense anymore because, you know, so yeah, I think action is the hardest because if you're vibing a character, once you come up with it, it really flows easily.

[00:05:57] Kyle: that's actually a perfect segue into my first big question. And you and I [00:06:00] talked about this when we first spoke. It's like, it's one thing to watch action and watch point break and, and it's, you're not overwhelmed by the, the perfectly executed skydiving and beach football and surfing, like on the screen.

[00:06:20] Peter Iliff: for it. Well, the key it's always been, and executives will always students actually always, you know, drive this into you if you don't care.

[00:06:50] And I'm going, but this opening 10 minutes is a, is, is an opportunity to express character. I need to mask off. I [00:07:00] need to know who these guys are and I want them to do cool little things. Like when the rifling through your car, he finds a pair of condom, some condoms and goes, Oh, I think I'll keep these for later.

[00:07:38] One scene after another action, action, action. And by that point, it all makes sense. It's flowing. The stakes are high. You really care, you know, like Keanu has this kind of bond with Bodhi and, you know, he can't shoot him. So he's got to shoot the sky. It's all working. So, um, I might [00:08:00] be rambling as I always do, but that's what makes great action and you've got to establish those characters first so you can get it down.

[00:08:23] That

[00:08:45] And, um, So it was really easy for me to kind of like, think of this, like they're from different walks of life, but they've got that thing. And I'm 17 years sober. So I know all about alcoholism, doing drugs and drinking too much. And, uh, [00:09:00] and it's about filling that dopamine, that dopamine hit. And so I think adrenaline junkie is just another form of addiction, you know, and you, if you got this disease, you're going to show it in one way or another.

[00:09:19] Kyle: each other. One of my favorite lines in the movie is, uh, Lori Petty, Tyler Bodie's room and that makeshift party house. You've got the kamikaze look. I've seen it.

[00:09:32] The stuff I was just saying about, you know, addiction, you don't need to get into that. It's kind of there. Um, you know, we are trying to do a, uh, a sequel to the, uh, TV series called Joni Utah, which is his daughter in the present day. And she is definitely fighting, you know, the pain pills from the injuries on the, you know, Olympic skate, you know, snowboarding team, you know, the torqued out knee.

[00:10:17] Point breaks fun. It's just kind of

[00:10:27] Peter Iliff: a safer place. Now that I'm sober, I just want you [00:10:30] to know, what was that? The world is a safer place.

[00:10:38] Peter Iliff: is under control. You're right. I'm married to the same girl, 32 years. And, uh, I'm always forgiven. Congrats, my

[00:10:53] And not only can TV permit that a different style of writing, but you can now pull from that experience for this character. Who's a daughter of [00:11:00] a character that means so much to your career and who you are as a person. I mean, isn't that a lovely,

[00:11:08] So Alcon has the rights. Okay. To the point break franchise. They had a disaster on their hands with their failed remake. Um, and so they're, it's just a little tough, you know, they've got snake bit and we're trying to get Keanu Reeves to EP it. And he's been a little busy making, uh, matrix and John Wick movies.[00:11:30]

[00:11:35] Kyle: that comes out, I'm throwing a huge party.

[00:11:41] Kyle: legit. I know as a fan, knowing he, if he was in the EVP role, I mean, not that I wouldn't, if you're involved, that would be sold anyway, but having him, his name would mean a lot as just a light.

[00:11:56] Kyle: I know everybody he's beloved. So next question. So, you know, [00:12:00] what was interesting? I was studying all the, um, All the special features for our podcast. And it was interesting with Catherine Bigelow, um, because there was two sentiments I got some of the, some of the, um, producers.

[00:12:28] Her feminine approach and appeal is what [00:12:30] added some of the emotional layers. You talked about that emotional payoff. It was Catherine who kind of added some of those layers that made us get attached to, to Tyler, to get attached. I think that's a really

[00:12:43] Um, you know, brought more attention to the relationships, which paid off in the action. And, you know, uh, what a sight, I mean, Catherine's a tall, um, um, great chisel. She was a model in her younger years. So she's a beautiful woman. [00:13:00] And to see her on set, she was always a presence. And, uh, and shrewdly, shrewdly, brilliant, knew what she wanted and would fight for the things she wanted.

[00:13:29] It was [00:13:30] like having Paul McCartney, you know, on set and they literally had to rope off at the Santa Monica pier down here. Um, you know, cause there were literally screaming, you know, scantily clad women, you know, howling for Swayze. And it was funny cause Keanu would be in the parking lot. Having to learn to throw a football because, you know, it's a skill and he never played football and he, you know, he's lived in Wades and, um, I remember he was, um, I guess he was, you know, taking some juice to get his muscle [00:14:00] bulk up and he was breaking out.

[00:14:20] He looks good. We were talking about that. We were like, he had to really transform his disease, which wasn't being done a lot back then. There wasn't the, uh, [00:14:30] crazy transformations like Christian Bale, machinist and all that. It wasn't happening. Yeah,

[00:14:39] What do you think about this, this idea? I'd love to hear because you, you're such a vital part to the, what I would consider to be an evolution in action. Um, we talk all the time about how action, you know, in the Westerns and James Bond was kind of an element of action. It wasn't the centerpiece. We get, you know, some Dirty Harry, I think Dirty Harry and Clint Eastwood move that a little farther.

[00:15:14] Um, but you know, he's more relatable, still pretty good looking and Jack, but relatable, but Keanu. Oh, I know it's so vital, but you know, then we get to you with point break and yes, Keanu is that every man, but then you add this element of extreme action the whole [00:15:30] time. And, and cause we compared this movie to fast and furious, which has been accused of jacking the screenplay and whether that's true or not,

[00:15:42] Apologize and thank me and do the gracious thing. That's amazing.

[00:16:02] Peter Iliff: Well, you know, it, it started to veer away from, you know, the, uh, you know, the Arnold Schwarzenegger and the kind of bad bonds where you'd crack a joke and, and it wasn't reality based, you were kind of defying the laws of physics a lot, you know, it was kind of gags, you know, um, you know, with a, like almost like a punchline, a violent punchline and the stuff here, it was meant to be reality based that it could happen, except it didn't.

[00:16:50] And it's a great idea. I mean, it's a great action idea because it's just got all these nuances like, you know, boaties willing to die. If you don't want to die too, like how [00:17:00] far you want to take this road to glory thing, bro, you better pull it. You know, that's all great. There is no way part of my French that a guy on a second dive can control his pair.

[00:17:34] And then without cutting, literally falls back and rolls out of the plane and the camera comes forward and sees him falling. That's one shot. You really did it. What actor, what actor, even has James Bond even ever done that? No. I mean, Swayze was the man and he, uh, really, you know, I mean, you saw the incredible shape that guy [00:18:00] was, that was, that was really him.

[00:18:18] And they called him buddy and they'd all drink together and they were just, it was so cool. Swayze was just so loved and there was endless stories of what a dude and how he embraced this [00:18:30] and it became like a bro out like, you know, I'm, you know, I'm really going to be in a surfboard and I'm really going to jump out of a plane.

[00:19:02] And a relative of Jim Cameron's hand on the camera broke his back because the power went off and all of a sudden boom and one of Cameron's Brothers or somebody had broke his back. He's handling the camera. So it's

[00:19:30] Peter Iliff: great question because You I mean, to be at the age Keanu is reaching now to do John Wick and Matrix type moves, I mean, I can only imagine you're training four hours a day just to keep your body from, you know, you know, you haven't heard the reports that he, you know, he tore his shoulder or, you know, he seems to have kept his body healthy enough to do this stuff.

[00:19:58] Kyle: And the matrix, he actually, did you know this? He did [00:20:00] actually have two neck infusions though. He came in. That's why they do. That's why he looks skinnier in all the fight scenes because he actually, yeah, he actually did have a neck infusion and he re aggravated it.

[00:20:13] Peter Iliff: crazy.

[00:20:26] It's like, if you guys want to do these stunts, then you got to get here on the [00:20:30] weekends in between filming. So we can do it. Um, so we can practice.

[00:20:45] He's just a crazy man. A lovely man. Sober. No, good. Jesse is a producer on this, uh, Joe and Utah project. And, you know, I'm still surfing looking [00:21:00] great.

[00:21:04] Peter Iliff: I can't give too many more details other than, you know, skip your fingers crossed.

[00:21:14] Peter Iliff: out. And the more that our point break, uh, fandom, you know, would like to see something like this, it really helps. So tweets and, you know, kind of, uh, fans out there, if you want more, we want to give it to you.

[00:21:33] Because of the arc of your career, but why do fans, do you think this movie has so much staying power this many years

[00:22:08] Uh, uh, boys in the hood, which is a seminal film and 101 Dalmatians, like, you know, shit, you know? So it was in fourth place. It, uh, it didn't kick ass domestically, you know, because it was, you know, it just got burned by those bigger films. [00:22:30] And um, and I had done another film like the next year called Patriot games, which got Three stars.

[00:22:59] And [00:23:00] I think it was like a dozen cities. I mean, I don't know if you ever saw the point break live play, but it was great fun. It was, uh, you know, they always do in a bar with people drinking and they had super soakers and blood packs. They had to wear like a little, they'd give you like a 2 rain slicker thing.

[00:23:39] You know, like, you know, New Zealand, I saw this film and the message changed my life. I'm like, are you, is this guy for real? Like, huh? You know, and more would come in and, you know, Oh my goodness. You know, so what a beautiful, humbling thing that you do something and someone loves that much. It inspires them [00:24:00] maybe to get into, uh, sports, surfing, you know, get into a spiritual existence, which can make you a happier, more peaceful soul.

[00:24:10] Kyle: Yeah. Well, Bodhi is, um, we were talking about how important the end was because Bodhi, I think Bodhi had to die that way and Utah had to let him go that way because. Yeah. Really? It's funny as a kid. And I think I told you this when we first talked, it's like films, like Point Break and Robocop as a kid, you watch them for the action.

[00:24:32] Peter Iliff: you know, and we had that first. And it's such a. Pleasure as a writer of something to actually have your end kind of first, because then you can work up to it. How often is writers that we have, we're scrambling to get the pages into directors and actors, and we kind of got to write the end of the fly.

[00:25:13] What was fascinating was, um, because of that idea, you know, there, there originally wasn't, the ending was reshot months later. The original ending was, uh, more of a conversation. You know, hey, you gotta go down, people trust you, and they died. And, you [00:25:30] know, uh, and, um, Swayze basically asked, well, hey, brah, let me, let me go that way, you know?

[00:25:55] Um, Swayze had gone up to do Roland Joffrey's City of Joy [00:26:00] as a doctor, his short hair. And I believe Keanu was doing Bill and Ted's too. And uh, so he had to grow it long. And so it was this great, happy accident that implied the passage of time that Keanu had spent looking for Bodhi. And uh, I love the ending.

[00:26:39] Sorry, but there's that badge. Yeah. And the cool stuff like that, you know, and bullet, the last shot in bullet. It's Steve McQueen movie is on his, the badge is on the rail of his apartment. And it's kind of like questioning the questioning of what, is this right? What I'm doing? I can't do it anymore. I just love those [00:27:00] things.

[00:27:17] Like if you paused it and exported it, it would make an amazing portrait. And the one to me is at the ending when Utah is walking down the beach and his hair is wet. Cause he's got long hair. Now, like you said, that was a huge part of it. He's soaking wet in the rain. He's been a slow [00:27:30] motion. No one, no one rides for freeze playing.

[00:27:37] Peter Iliff: I, I, I, that, that, that rat song, nobody arrives for free. It's still such a cool song. It's like, uh, the guy in Cobra Kai, you know, that he's stuck in the eighties. That's, that's like his favorite song, you know? Oh yeah. And, uh, so I, I, I literally do get chills when I see that it works so well.

[00:27:55] Kyle: I know. And they're so pissed too. Um, so [00:28:00] going off script a little bit, let's talk about just writing in general a little bit. How, how has writing changed? You know, it's crazy that, you know, this was, you know, you were waiting tables and then you're for your, you know, then you're selling a thing to Ridley Scott, you know, what has changed about writing screenplays from then to today?

[00:28:20] Peter Iliff: That's a very interesting question. I, cause I remember, um, well, one is just that for point break, I had to literally go to the UCLA library, to the card [00:28:30] catalog and research bank robberies.

[00:28:51] Normally the studio would send me on these glorious trips. Used to be first class, now it's business class, but it's been a blast. Oh, Amazon [00:29:00] river, Lisbon, Portugal. I'm in now. I got to look at tour, you know, tour videos that some, you know, Yoko is, is produced of him eating a side berries and, and, uh, the Amazon and that cause it was COVID, you know, I just couldn't go.

[00:29:39] I'm getting on my phone. Uh, his, his, his voice memos, like, like instead of typing, I'm just getting, you know, the director's having these kind of random Gatling gun thoughts and he just voicemails them to me. And, um, you know, and it gets a little bit helter skelter cause it's very easy for him just to do this [00:30:00] and he might not have to think about as much, should I actually give the writer this note?

[00:30:31] So to print 120 page script took an hour and you're a friend of you, right? Oh yeah. It's Friday. Yeah. Send those, send the driver, send the messenger, you know, and he comes and he's, he's, he's It's still not, it's still printing. It's like, Hey, you want a beer? You want, you know, these guys? No dude, you need to script it, you got to get back.

[00:30:53] Kyle: Um, just slam it on the table. You know, the pages, it would shake the table. [00:31:00] I

[00:31:13] If I need some smart thing, someone says I can look at a zillion quotes and pick out the one and modify it. There's a lot of cheating that goes on. You don't have to be quite as smart anymore. But the one thing about, in all seriousness, the one thing about screenwriting that has radically changed [00:31:30] is the outline process.

[00:31:53] And it would just be the end now. And it's really important for new writers is we [00:32:00] outline every scene of the movie. And, um, I think that's half the work. And by doing that, you're engaging with your director, your producers studio, and everybody's signing off and everybody's adding input. Then everybody's now got their ego into it and they want to support it.

[00:32:33] You're getting ideas. Now, when you turn it in, people are happy. There's never any more like, what the hell is this? You know, it's, um, so, you know, uh, these, all you guys in the coffee shops, just kind of like spewing out screenplays. I hope you're doing it the right way or you're wasting your time because the hard work is in the skeleton, the outline, and you can make it as long as you want, 10 pages, 40 pages.

[00:33:20] And it's now part of the deal making process treatment that, you know, you know, commence, deliver and commence, deliver first [00:33:30] draft and then deliver rewrite. So there's three step

[00:33:40] But one thing we've uncovered is all the great movies. Like I get made fun of a lot because I actually actively update and keep it a list of top 50 movies in my life, you know, and some, they move around like chess, but so many of them are great because they faced adversity in the early process. Like you said, it's, it's a little easier now because it's harder to write a bad script or write a bad screenplay, [00:34:00] but you think about even point break, right?

[00:34:18] Like so many great movies were great because they didn't have infinite resources, infinite budgets, and they just completely faced adversity. The whole process.

[00:34:36] Because as big as it is in truth, you know, there's a number and um, It's very hard to hit that number. And so uh I mean there's uh, Patriot Games which was in this so called infinite budget era, I didn't even remember what the budget was, but it was a sequel to uh, I'm sorry Patriot Games was a sequel to the Hunt for Red October so it was a big budget thing.

[00:35:15] And so in Patriot games, there's a sequence when Harrison Ford is at the courthouse in the first act and Sean Bean is going to go to prison. Well, guess what? There's a huge action sequence right there where his terrorist cronies, you think they've come to kill Jack Ryan, [00:35:30] but what they do is they kill the judge.

[00:35:56] So, um, and today, [00:36:00] um, you know, it's all these, most, most of these films being independence budgets are. Crazy tight. And so you're finding screenplays are really not, I find this interesting. They'll say on one hand, screenplays are no longer 120 pages, but then how come the bond movie is two hour, 40 minutes.

[00:36:38] Well, a week of shooting, you got to rent the cameras, you got to pay for the cast, you know, so they, you know, we're going, we're only going to give you six weeks. So I want 105 page. I, in fact, I love a 97 page script. Can you do that, Pete? And then here's a problem. If you have, okay, you have an action film.

[00:37:23] You don't see the beginning. You're just kind of like creating pace. By actually not having complete, you know, [00:37:30] you don't see them walk in the door conversation and walk out the door. It's like, they're in the room, you cut on something clever and you're in the room somewhere else. And it's this pacing up by, um, by shooting and writing that way.

[00:38:10] If I wrote that, that's a, that's a one, that was a one minute, walking into a hotel, never happened. That's incredible. So there's a lot of screenwriting to about. You know, writing action on the page that is trying to pace the time it takes. And since I've directed a number of films now, [00:38:30] you start to realize you can't just say she walks into the hotel and you have to kind of like write it so It's taking that page length, that, that actual screen time.

[00:39:01] So, um. A lot of stuff

[00:39:10] Peter Iliff: Joni Utah. But, uh, so what I'm doing now is, um, I've got a new film coming out, uh, this, uh, summer called the enforcer.

[00:39:37] There's no God. Doesn't matter what I do or who I do it to. But what if he finds this girl who needs help? He starts to find some faith that messes them up as a hit man. And now he's got to go up against his own crew. To save the girl and do the right thing. It's a beautiful movie, The Enforcer and Tony Banderas.

[00:40:14] Crash is the deep Pacific and half the movie is the ditching and the surviving. And then it turns into a shark movie and it's great. This would be a big hit deep water. And now, um, I've been doing, um, free [00:40:30] agents with director Dion Taylor, which will be universal and will Packer. And it's about NFL players with a veteran contracts, losing money, their injuries.

[00:41:08] Oh, wow. It's a really great script. We just love it and we're thinking it's going to be Queen Latifah. That's going to shoot in April. And, uh, and TV, you know, I'm working with Chuck Roven at Atlas Entertainment and Amanda Breckenridge, she was the star of a great show, Virgin River. Uh, Netflix. [00:41:30] Yeah. My dear director, uh, Gary fleeter.

[00:41:53] And then, you know, Alexandra and I come on and, and the director and we kind of do it, our spiel with the [00:42:00] c every beat of the season. And uh, you know, so that's how it works these days. You know, you just don't walk into a room. You gotta spend a lot of money on these fancy pitch videos. Yeah. So interesting how everything's changing because of Zoom.

[00:42:26] Peter Iliff: And, uh, they said they were getting out of a release date, uh, still in [00:42:30] post, but they said the summer, the fall, you know, they, they do films like the expendables and a black Hawk down, I mean, sorry, white house, white house down.

[00:42:53] Kyle: Yeah. In between MCU movies. Well, that's amazing. So I do want to finish with this.

[00:43:11] Whoever it is. What is one thing you would say to them right now that would change the course of direction for their career?

[00:43:34] You get that break quite often despite your talent, but for a writer, there's a whole industry of people looking for you. If you're good, you got to be good. You can't be, you can't be just good. You got to be great. If you're great. I mean, every agent, all their assistants are in like groups where they ask, what did you read this week?

[00:44:20] First drafts always suck. It's gotta be a third or fourth draft you finally expose because people won't read it twice. So get in that writing group. [00:44:30] If you, if even if your sister gives you five ideas, And then your brother gives you, and then your, your stupid friend gives you five ideas. And then the milkman gives you, that's 20 ideas.

[00:45:01] Hell yeah. And it's a great lifestyle. I ride my bike 3000. I rode my bike over 3000 miles a year. I ski like a maniac. I'm able to go to the gym, hang out with my kids, my wife, my dogs, and I, and I get to write. It's, I'm a very blessed, I'd say I'm too, I'm too blessed to be stressed.

[00:45:21] This is incredible. What an honor to meet you and hear your stories. Uh, I, when I sent the email to your agent, I was like, there's no way the guy that wrote point breaks is going to talk to us. And then you literally [00:45:30] sent me an email and I was so just ecstatic. So thank you for your time and being so you gave us a whole hour, man.

[00:45:36] Peter Iliff: you. And, uh, I needed, I needed an hour break. Cause it's been a very harrowing rewrite day. I bet man. This actually was vacation for my brain to talk about myself. Well,

[00:45:49] Peter Iliff: you. Thank you. Movie Wars.