In this episode of What the Health, we explore the realities and opportunities of late-life career transitions. John speaks with Caroline Ceniza-Levine, founder of Dream Career Club, who shares expert insights on how mature adults can successfully navigate career changes. They discuss the emotional, financial, and practical considerations involved and the unique challenges and benefits of making such a transition. Caroline highlights the importance of proper planning, determination, and staying resourceful. Tune in to learn how to approach a career shift later in life and make it a fulfilling journey.

00:00 Introduction: Embracing Change in Life

01:07 The Challenges and Rewards of Late-Life Career Changes

01:29 Expert Insights: Navigating Career Transitions

02:13 Interview with Caroline Ceniza-Levine: Trends in Late Career Transitions

10:55 Emotional and Practical Aspects of Career Changes

13:30 Success Stories and Strategies for Career Transitions

22:24 Advice for Mature Workers: Starting Your Career Change

30:58 Conclusion: Making a Successful Career Transition

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Mature adults are often at the forefront of career changes as they look for a different pathway that reflects a long held desire or the call to accomplish something more meaningful in life. It is often a noble and extremely personal journey. A late life career changeover can also be challenging, and it may not be for everyone.

Career changes at any time, but especially later in life, require emotional stamina, resources, time, and a thoughtful examination of where someone wants to go and how they're going to get there. But there can be enormous rewards for the bold and the determined. Our upcoming guest is an expert on helping people navigate these life changes, and she's ready to lay out what's needed to make this type of shift.

Keep listening.

Okay, we are once again at the best part of our podcast is when we get to talk to an expert someone with tons of insights, someone who's going to help you lead a better and healthier life on a whole bunch of different fronts. And today we're talking about career transition and particularly late life career transition.

And this may be geared to some of our more mature audience members, but we're delighted to have Caroline Ceniza-Levine, founder of Dream Career Club. Caroline, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:12] John Salak: Thank you. I know you work with a lot of different people on career guidance but you also spend a lot of your efforts on late career transition, but we also wanna know from your perspective, are there more Americans making late career transitions?

Maybe if that's during their normal working career or even after what we might assume is retirement age.

Certainly right now there's inflation and I definitely saw this after the pandemic that a lot of people had just an inflection point where they really looked at what they had been doing and saying, is this all there is?

I definitely saw that pick up a lot in the last few years. So I think it's a combination of different things that are pointing people to making career shifts, at all stages of life, including later stage.

[00:03:29] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: a combination, yeah. People will define it differently. I ask that question around, for many people it's around the meaning of what they're doing, the legacy that they're leaving, and this comes up mainly with later stage where they've been in a career could be two, three decades. And maybe they enjoyed it while they were there, but again, as they're looking back and saying, okay, did I accomplish everything that I wanna accomplish? What is the message that I'm sending to my kids, to my grandkids? And that's where that kind of introspective, is this all there is?

And some people are driven by, have I made the money that I wanna make? Again, with inflation, with all the volatility. Sometimes it's looking at their bank account and saying, is this all there is? Based on how expensive things are. But for the most part, when people get to that third decade and especially if they've had some career milestones along the way and maybe have enjoyed their career, but they still are saying, okay, should I be doing something more, something different, something maybe that I had set aside earlier that I wanna pick up.

[00:04:51] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: The population that I tend to work with are knowledge workers. These are mostly white collar jobs. They are desk jobs, whether in office or working from home. They're based on a specific expertise or a skill. These folks tend to be intellectually curious and ambitious for long stretches.

And so retirement is less about, I'm putting in my four decades and at the age of 60, 65, 70, some magical age, I'm going to hang up my shingle. For the most part, the client base that I tend to work with, they are looking at specific. Goals that they have, whether it's financial goals or knowledge goals or professional goals or personal goals.

And so it's more geared around where they are in life as opposed to an age range.

[00:05:57] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: There's a lot that's been written about staving off dementia by maintaining your relationships, by maintaining your work purpose, by maintaining meaning in your life, however you define it. And so I know that's on the minds of the folks that tend to come into things like career coaching or executive coaching, because again, they're ambitious.

They work hard, they want to maximize both their professional life and then just their health and wellness. And so career is a big part of that. Staying active, staying vital, mentally and emotionally.

Are there any demographics that tend to lean this way? Women versus men? Ethnic background, anything like that? And it's just a curiosity.

Again, more around the professional milestones, things like going after the C-suite or maybe starting a business for the first time or maybe turning a personal hobby into something more. So I tend to see people all across the board, really pursuing those types of goals.

[00:07:56] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: I've definitely seen both. And I think as people live longer and are looking at multiple decades they don't need to stay in the same company, certainly not even in the same role. So they might be accounting and then move into marketing not even in the same industry. So they might have come from finance.

But now they're in phishing and other hospitality or whatever it is. They might have been in a big company. They're looking at small companies or starting their own company. And so I, I do see it across the board. I do see people who say, okay, I've built up a body of knowledge. I have a track record.

And the focus on the career transition is more about lifestyle. So it's more about how do I take the stuff that I know and maybe work part-time, maybe do some consulting so I can pick my own projects. And so it's a less about changing industry or role in that case. But then I do have some people who are like, look, I've been an accountant my whole life.

I worked with a lawyer recently who composed music. And wanted to do more of that. So he didn't walk away from his practice, but it was more around how can I start building this in and doing some more. He released an album and so, it really became something viable for him, later stage. .

Are you getting people who have lost their jobs in their fifties and saying, okay, yeah, I can stay in marketing, but I have to transition out. Is that a significant part of your business?

So I do have people who come and they are either have already lost their job, so they are using severance or whatever it is, or they have outplacement or they feel like they're at a particular risk. I am working with someone who is sponsored by the company where he's at, and for whatever reason, the Green Card application was denied or sent back, for some updates.

Meanwhile, the company's not doing well. This process takes a really long time, and so. Here's someone who's looking at all their options. Looking at, of course, staying and seeing that application through, but then also really thinking about, okay, if I have to make a move right now, what is that going to look like?

So sometimes it is driven more by economics or by the job market or just, some of the practical considerations.

[00:11:03] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: The job searches is anxiety inducing. I'm not going to sugarcoat it because you are setting yourself up for lots of rejection. At the end of the day, you get one job, maybe you get several offers, but many people it's one offer, one job, and to get there, it's. Rounds and rounds of interviews.

It's lots of applications. It's lots of networking meetings, and some of those meetings are born out of outreach that. Never gets responded to or, sometimes you send out applications, you never hear back from them. So it's just a lot of rejection, even for ultimately successful candidates.

And when you're making a career change. When we talk about the finance person going into the bait and tackle shop or, whatever it is, there's just this uncertainty around like, I have to meet a whole new set of people. I have a track record that doesn't matter anymore. I'm starting at the beginning.

So then there's all of these other things that come into play when you're making a big change. So yeah, it can be ap, it can be emotional, and also could be exciting. But you know, I don't sugarcoat it.

[00:12:18] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: For what I do, mainly as people come to me directly, I used to do outplacement with companies where companies would send me people that they had just laid off. And so I do have some experience comparing those two populations. Obviously when people are kind of pushed into the job search that they didn't plan, the negative emotions run high, there's a lot of fear.

They might not have been prepared, their severance might not be enough, and they might not have as big an emergency fund as. They would like, if they are later in their career, they might have been counting on, maybe a few more years of retirement contributions or whatever it is, or vesting for a pension that's no longer there.

So emotions run really high for individuals who come to me directly. There's a reason. Typically there's a spark. Sometimes it's arguably a negative inflection point. Like, let's say when the pandemic hit, people were really starting to think, oh my goodness, I know people who got sick or whatever it is.

And so it, it prompts them to make a big shift. But even then, they're in the driver's seat. They know that they're in the driver's seat, that they have choices about what's next. So it's a very different feeling. Yeah,

[00:13:54] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: Yeah. I mean, look, jobs are all, it's called work for a reason, so it's not all roses and unicorns. What I've seen a lot is that yes, there is a lot of personal satisfaction and a lot of fulfillment. Oftentimes I've seen, especially with kind of the more extreme career changes where people. Tend to integrate things that they've done in the past.

I had a finance person who had spent 20 plus years in finance and ended up transitioning into K through 12 education, and she went from an operations role in finance. To a development and community outreach role. So very, very different both from an industry perspective and a role perspective. And she spent several years in her new role, in her new industry.

Really liked a lot of it, but frankly missed a lot of the financial, and so she ended up transitioning back into banking. But in a relationship manager role for the public sector clients of this bank. And so you can see it was actually a perfect peanut butter cup of what she had done before and what she transitioned to.

And that's what I see a lot, that people figure out, oh, I didn't hate everything about what I did before. So that marketing person probably doing more analytical marketing because there was stuff about the numbers that they liked.

[00:15:35] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: yeah. I would say that the biggest thing that successful career changers have in common is that they feel. Empowered to make this change. They feel like, okay, I might not have the network, but I'm gonna meet these people and I might not know everything about all these companies, but I'm curious enough and I'm self-starting enough to figure it out.

There's a growth mindset. There's a self-starting aspect to them. There's a resourcefulness and they're willing to. Figure it out. They hit a brick wall and they'll dig under it, go around it, climb over it, whatever. I see some people get some of the way there. They're super excited about making a change.

Maybe they start getting their resume together. They start talking to some people, they start making applications, but then they hit some roadblocks and then they say, well, this, maybe this isn't for me. So they lose that momentum and the people who can stick it out are, again, they're resourceful, they're self-starting, they're.

Some spark about them that keeps them going and.

[00:16:54] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: I will say that with employers and I came to career coaching because I was a long time recruiter, so I have hired thousands of people over my almost 30 years in recruiting.

I've been on the other side of the desk, and what I will say about employers is that their questions and their hesitation about career changers is not without merit, their concerns that the person is.

Not really committed, 'cause they have this track record and something else and that they might just leave. That the person is trying to learn on their time and their dime so that they don't really know what they're getting into. And when it comes to someone who's later stage in their career, 'cause they have a longer track record, more time doing something else and having done other things and being perhaps more senior and more expensive.

Companies will say, gosh, do I wanna take a flyer on this person? And I think those are legitimate hesitations. And so someone who is older, who is thinking about making a career change, listen back to this podcast and then make a checklist of all of those hesitations that I just said, and think about how you're going to respond to that.

Make sure that you're not coming in and expecting to be a vp. When you don't have that experience where you are, make sure that you're not looking to exactly, meet your previous salary, especially if your salary was based on, being very senior where you are. Make sure that you're not expecting employers to guess what your skills, translate, you know how they translate when you're the one who's supposed to that argument, really building that bridge.

[00:18:43] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: It's interesting. I do have some situations where they'll come back from an interview or for a networking meeting and they'll say, I really don't think that person. Got me or liked me and they jump into the age thing and they'll say they're junior. And so they, I don't know, maybe they felt threatened by me or maybe it's a generational thing or I don't know.

And I really try to get, whether it's an individual client or I'll just. Say this in general on the podcast to say, really step back from making assumptions that it is, in this case an age difference. Or it could be, like an industry difference or a gender difference or like we just don't know.

It's one networking meeting, it's one interview. I will say that obviously as a late stage job seeker or career changer that you have to know how to interview with people. At all stages of their career, you are gonna be meeting people who are junior to you. If you're in your fifties, sixties, seventies, you're gonna meet people who are in their twenties or thirties or forties and they're going to have a say in, whether or not you move forward.

And so you need to figure out how to make sure you come across as inviting and engaging and respectful honestly, to people who are, might not be at your level. Or, have the experience that you have.

[00:20:15] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: Yeah, so the ones that are successful, so the example that I gave about the finance ops person who went into education, development, community outreach, the organization where she ended up working with really saw her background as an asset. Because they were looking to put more metrics and more numbers behind, some of their strategic plans.

And so she actually took her outsider status because when she got into the final rounds, she knew she was up against a lot of people who had years in education, years in K through 12, et cetera. And so she really sold them on her outsider perspective on being able to bring. Best practices from very different firms, and because she understood that what they were trying to do was install these new metrics, she was able to draw a direct parallel between what she had been doing to what they were trying to do.

So if you really understand what the employers looking for, you can make that same case. Employers are interested in your experience. So they're interested in your expertise, especially where it translates. Another person who is very successful in making a career change. Again in, in their fifties after decades in a completely different area.

Also operations been this time in pharmaceutical and then moved into business development. They were interested in his experience working with complex hierarchies, really understanding just giant firms and how to cut through the red tape, so to speak. Because in his role, which would be calling on clients and really trying to figure out who are the decision makers here, it made sense that someone who had grown up in that environment would have that background.

And so it wasn't a liability, it was actually an asset. And there can be so many examples. Of that.

Right now, how do I start? I want to make a career change. What are my first steps? Obviously I call you, but how do I go about that and do these things?

So that would be an example of taking on an enormous amount of debt. And obviously they need to go back to school because you need the medical degree. That is, you can't, it wasn't like he was doing TikTok, influencing, a. Medical advice there really wanted to be a doctor, and so depending on what you're trying to do, because you have a shorter runway to make that money back, I do check, what their financial situation is, what their goals are to see, if we're talking about something that is, is very much like that med school example, but for most people it's not, you don't have to go back to school necessarily. You don't need to have a certification or spend an inordinate amount of money. Usually it is totally fine. So. Barring that, really what I like to start with is what is it that you wanna be doing?

Finding that pull factor, that thing that is going to make them feel empowered and self-starting and resourceful when things get tough. Because if you're excited enough about it, you will actually do it. And then I would say, the rest of it is then the well then how do you get that? So what does the marketing look like in terms of resume, LinkedIn how you talk about yourself, what does your networking look like?

Who should you be talking to? You have an extensive network because you're later in your career, but they tend to be people who either worked similar roles that you did or maybe in the same industry. And so it's like, how about everybody else? And who do you wanna be meeting? And then it might be a while since you've interviewed.

And so there's, interview preparation and technique. And so then there's all that, job search logistics.

[00:24:42] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: Yeah, it depends on where they are. So for people who don't have a very clear target, or maybe they think they have a clear target, but I can sense from, again, all that time as a recruiter, it's like, it's not specific enough, or let's really hone in on, you can't just say financial services.

I mean, there's a whole world, every talking insurance and accounting and banking. It's commercial banking, retail banking, investment banking. So you know, really trying to get that specificity around. Industry role, geography, where do you wanna be or what areas do you wanna focus on? And then but for people who already know that and where they have a very clear sense of what they wanna do, yeah.

Then it's positioning, it's that interview prep and technique. It's networking strategy, it's all the stuff around the how. So it really depends on where people are. And that's the way it should be. I mean, that's what happens with career planning is that there's so many. Aspects to it, but it really depends on where you are in your career and what you're trying to do. And then you know what needs to happen in between.

I.

[00:25:54] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: Yes, and there are career coaches who specialize in different things. There are people who only will work on things like resume and LinkedIn. There are people who only work on, let's say, interview prep. There are some who will only work with people like actually not on job search issues, but on job advancement issues.

So you really wanna talk to people that you're considering and find out where they specialize, who they tend to work with. They might work with public sector versus private sector or nonprofits or early stage versus late stage.

[00:26:33] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: So I would say the biggest mistake is not getting started at all is assuming that it's too late. And you'd be surprised, sometimes I talk to people and they just talk themselves out of it, even as we're just brainstorming, just talking about what might be possible. And you can already see the self-censorship, right?

So they don't even allow themselves to dream enough to find. That thing that's going to be interesting to them. So I would say that is the biggest mistake is to just assume that it is not possible. I think from a practical perspective, let's say that you've got big dreams and you're willing to jump in.

I would say the second most common thing is that you give up too easily that you hit a roadblock. And rather than just saying, okay, I've hit a roadblock. But I'm gonna figure out how to get around that. Then you say, oh, this is not for, this must not be for me. This must be a sign from the universe or from the job market that this is not for me.

[00:27:37] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: So I've made a lot of career changes in my own life and I myself am in my fifties. I've changed industries, I've changed roles. I've also been a recruiter, like I said earlier, and what I tell people is that my recruiter self would never hire my career change self, meaning that by the time you get to an employer, counterintuitively, you can't really seem like a career changer.

They obviously saw your resume. They can see that you never worked in education if you're a finance person or music if you're a lawyer, but they can't feel that way. So the focus actually isn't on career change or career transition. It's actually career arrival. You are there, you're ready. You have such and such skills, and such background, and you're ready to make this contribution, and it's to turn all the focus.

When you're making that move into, I've already moved, and I think people forget that. So they refer to themselves as newbies or transitioners or they talk about the journey. And of course, if you're getting your teeth done or you're. Going into surgery, you don't wanna hear that your surgeon is just trying stuff out, right?

Like you want them to know that they've arrived. And so for prospective employers, they wanna feel that way too.

[00:29:08] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: Yeah. Like that journey and that constant like, oh, I'm just getting into this. Or I think people get excited about talking about that inflection point and how it changed their lives, but that's actually kind of scary from a job search standpoint because it just emphasizes, it's like, oh, you're new and we

don't wanna feel that way as employers.

[00:29:38] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: transition?

I have. And when I need to make a pivot I'll, make a pivot, because I've done it before and I can do it again and everyone can do it again.

[00:29:51] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: Well, I say they don't call them blind spots for nothing, so I myself get a coach. Les Brown said, it is hard to see the picture when you're inside the frame.

That's true for all of us. That's why coaches have coaches too.

[00:30:22] Caroline Ceniza-Levine: Great. Thanks for having me on the show.

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Well, everyone realizes changes are coming, some of our own, making others thrust upon us. This is particularly true when it comes to jobs, thankfully. Tackling a job or a career shift, even a late life shift is doable. But preparation, planning, realism, determination, and resources are required to make it happen.

So is sound advice and the ability to reposition yourself for a new industry and environment that might be nothing like anything previously experienced. Ultimately, you need to stay focused and determined to succeed, but do not talk yourself out of trying. Well, that's it for this episode of What the Health.

We'd Like to thank Caroline Za Levine for laying out the challenges and opportunities of career changes, especially later life career changes. If you'd like to learn more about her work and approach, we'd recommend visiting Caroline's website at. Dream Career Club. Just type in those words on your browser and the site will appear.

Finally. Thanks again for listening and we hope you'll join us again soon on what the Health.