A movie podcast walks into town... The Western may be the most flexible and dynamic film genre. It's survived over a century while experiencing new forms and shapes, all built on its undeniably effective tested-by-time formula. Not only is Tombstone one of the most beloved versions of that formula but it is also considered the best Western of all time by a large contingency of six-shooter-loving move-goers. And then you have Wyatt Earp...a film that, on paper, had all the makings of a masterpiece. Suffering the critical success of Tombstone, which was released just months pryer, the film was slammed by critics and flopped financially. That being said, it seemed fitting to seize the opportunity to compare two films that tell the same exact story from different perspectives. Get your mustaches on and draw...it's Movie Wars.

TOMBSTONE

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MOVIE INFO

Wyatt Earp (Kurt Russell) and his brothers, Morgan (Bill Paxton) and Virgil (Sam Elliott), have left their gunslinger ways behind them to settle down and start a business in the town of Tombstone, Ariz. While they aren't looking to find trouble, trouble soon finds them when they become targets of the ruthless Cowboy gang. Now, together with Wyatt's best friend, Doc Holliday (Val Kilmer), the brothers pick up their guns once more to restore order to a lawless land.

Rating: R

• Genre: Western, Action
• Original Language: English
• Director: 

George P. Cosmatos

Producer: 

Sean Daniel

, 

James Jacks

, 

• Bob Misiorowski

Writer: 

• Kevin Jarre

• Release Date (Theaters): Dec 25, 1993  Wide
• Release Date (Streaming): Jul 1, 2014
• Box Office (Gross USA): $55.9M
• Runtime: 2h 7m

WYATT EARP

The epic biography of western lawman Wyatt Earp, who at an early age, is taught that nothing matters more than family and the law. He becomes a respected sheriff in Dodge City and Tombstone. Joined by his brothers and Doc Holliday, Earp wages war on the dreaded Clanton and McLaury gangs.

Rating: PG-13

• Genre: Biography
• Original Language: English
• Director: 

Lawrence Kasdan

Producer: 

Jim Wilson

, 

Kevin Costner

, 

• Lawrence Kasdan

• Release Date (Theaters): Jun 24, 1994  Wide
• Release Date (Streaming): Jan 1, 2008
• Box Office (Gross USA): $24.6M
• Runtime: 3h 11m
• Distributor: Warner Bros. Pictures
• Production Co: Warner Bros., Tig Productions

Thank you Rotten Tomatoes!

[00:00:00] Movie Wars Episode 0046 Tombstone vs. Wyatt Ain't nothing okay about this corral, let me tell you what Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to episode 0046 of the Movie Wars Podcast We're back! We are back! Skin that smoke wagon and see what happens, this is Kyle 46? We've done 46 of these? 46! I'm your Huckleberry, and I'm Drew.

[00:00:57] It really is so pertinent that we're doing this [00:01:00] pair of Westerns. We just did Lethal Weapon 2 vs. Bad Boys, and we kind of went on about just how prolific and long lasting the buddy cop genre is. I feel like it's funny we're doing Westerns, because Westerns are like the most pliable, flexible. genre of film ever.

[00:01:28] And I actually, you know what's funny? funny is I give a lot of credit to Red Dead Redemption 2. I, I grew up hating westerns. Going back to my grandparents, my racist grandpa liked westerns so I f**ing hated them. And you know, I actually still think that over time he probably became racist after he kept choking down my grandmother's dry cookies.

[00:02:02] Yeah, I know it's not a movie. That's what i'm saying though, man The time I saw red dead redemption in theaters opened my mind to watching western Okay, because the game you've played it. I know it's not your style, but you've played it's incredible Um, it's just an incredible story and it kind of got me it opened me up to that genre And then I finally watched the dollar series Clint Eastwood.

[00:02:34] We don't necessarily know a lot about them, but there are superheroes that are super bound by rustic reality. And I love that about it. Cause like when you're watching tombs, no wider and doc holiday, they do feel like superheroes, just like realistic down to earth superheroes. But the way that they glorify the protagonist and these really incredulous villains and Westerns, it's just such a classic formula that never gets old.

[00:03:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, but with the buddy cop duos. But yes, you're right. I did just describe every good movie. It's like, if it's got a good plot and good acting, good direction. Holy s**t, this is weird. This is a good movie. Good actors? Might be pretty good. Budget? It's got a Budget, a director, what, they got a f**ing director on this movie!

[00:03:43] You're so right, and it's interesting, one does it better than the other, right? I mean, you don't get all the history just for the listeners. Now, I read, did a lot of reading. I read some Tombstone and some Wyatt Earp biographies to prep for this because there's so much. Fact and fiction. I wanted to, didn't get to.

[00:04:13] So say you've never read anything about Wyatt Earp. You watch Tombstone and the way they perform it and wrote that and play it, you get that, those two have this kind of bromance, this really tight relationship. You don't necessarily. On the other hand, Wyatt Earp, they try to give you more background. I bought it a lot, a lot less.

[00:04:42] And they choose, they had different, made different choices as to when to drop you into the story, but it ended up being from the middle, at least the middle to the end was the same. Yeah, they drop you in in a different place and it's really interesting and really the, the defining factor is that one really tried harder to be factual, but that in that situation they ended up, [00:05:00] it almost like they were reading the facts off of a cue card and Tombstone is very fiction, but you buy into it so hard because it's almost romantic.

[00:05:25] Tombstone kept it about the ensemble and ended up being a much, much greater movie, even though on paper, Wyatt Earp should have been right there, you know, with it, if not better. I personally know probably a dozen people who count Tombstone as their favorite film of all time. Oh, it's, yeah. Yeah, it's.

[00:05:59] I mean, it's, [00:06:00] there are funny. Quotes there are powerful quotes. I mean it really offers all of it and every character is quotable The quotes are coming from every bill paxton's bringing in elliot elliott's bringing him in kurt russell even billy bob dobrocious Yeah, they're just yeah, even the villains michael bean, you know longer longer It's so great.

[00:06:36] There is a new one in town and it is called f**ing Wyatt Earp. Um, and that big, that cast was huge. So big it hurt. Really impressive. When I just, as the credits were rolling at the beginning, during that long, completely unnecessary foray into the cornfield, while Wyatt was a b a child, who cares. But I was, they were list the only interesting part about that is they were listing the cast, and I was like, wait, her?

[00:07:15] I mean, fricking Bill Pullman. I mean, everybody from the 90s was in that movie. Yeah. It just reminds you that you can have a cast or you can't. It all comes down to directing actors. And that's why people like Scorsese and Coppola, they continually do great work. And I read this about both of them. It's like, these movies wouldn't be great if it wasn't for them, because they know how to actually, not just direct a film, but direct actors.

[00:07:56] And you'll, you'll both I do believe [00:08:00] it was Wyatt Earp. And that one came out first? Nope. Other way around. Sorry. Wyatt Earp came out six months after Tombstone. And this is, you'll love this point. In the 90s, there was this period, and you'll probably both remember this, where there were these twosies, where movies would be about the same thing.

[00:08:28] back on the zeitgeist, just the general awareness of people about that subject matter. And if they loved the first film, there's a good chance that they're kind of like invested in that concept or that subject matter on some level. And they're maybe going to go spend money and go see your other film.

[00:08:56] Okay. Oh. Yeah, Westerns are back. Okay, we got to make our Western really [00:09:00] unfortunate. You got to wonder and you kind of mentioned this because Phil was on a flight. You flew to LA, watched Tombstone. Great flight. You flew back to Nashville, watched Wyatt Earp. Horrible flight back. That was, it was the, the craziness behind that was, yeah, I, I watched Tombstone on my flight out to Los Angeles, which flying from Nashville to L.

[00:09:39] And it was just because that movie just dragged three hours and 10 minutes of Kevin Costner using the same. Good. to a piece of dialogue when his brother gets shot as he would taking a f**ing s**t. Yeah, man, I, you know, hate to like, go down the critic path, like, for real, and I know we talk s**t about films and, you know, actors and actresses on this and, you know, and then we, you know, dance around with the whole we're not critics, we're fans thing, [00:10:00] but it's really, really hard to talk about this matchup and not talk about what A bizarre and pretty undebatably inferior film, Wyatt Earp is.

[00:10:23] I mean, just like, well, that's true. He just wrote them. Yeah, he wrote Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Bodyguard, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, Force Awakens, and Solo. He wrote all of those. Oh my gosh. So he's a great director. Great screenwriter. Great screenwriter. He directed, though. He does have other, so he directed Dreamcatcher, the Stephen King adaptation, which I thought was mediocre, but better than this.

[00:10:57] I read books, and I always try to watch the special features. None [00:11:00] of these movies had a commentary available. Really? Yeah. Not even Tombstone? Not even Tombstone. I think they are repackaging one for 4K. Dude, I'll stand in line for that 4K Tombstone. Like you said, I'm looking for a movie to kick off my list to put Tombstone on there.

[00:11:35] Yeah, it was more Our Boy Cosmatos. Right. Again, got ghost directed. Yeah. Again, just like Cobra. Okay. So, okay, so still right . So it's that just like Cobra. I was gonna say, 'cause Kurt Russell waited until George p Osmos died to, to basically tell the world that he was writing everything. Like he would hand him a shot list every day and say, this is what we're getting.

[00:12:19] So he left. Michael Bean then wanted to leave, um, because of that. And so, but he ended up staying, but he got pissed. I don't know if he got pissed, but he refuted. He said, Kurt Russell did not direct Tombstone. So he actually refuted it, which is weird. Like, you know, you don't hear a lot about Michael Bean wars, you know, Michael Beans being dramatic again.

[00:12:50] And I think it's something to do with kind of the family aspect, the brotherhood, you know, that it meant a lot to kind of our family growing up. And so I already, I always knew that I liked that [00:13:00] movie. And so revisiting it for this, I was blown away. Like I could not be more, I probably enjoyed it more now, like just being a grown man and kind of like tapping into kind of, I don't know, I don't want to say their life experiences, but being a provider and someone that's like taking care of a family and you know, that has a wife and brother, whatever.

[00:13:38] Oh, yeah. Curly Bill, dude. Oh, I just loved to hate that guy. And Val Kilmer, that, that performance is one of my favorite characters of all time. Like he just absolutely. Wyatt Earp I watched for the first time for this podcast, and I, I mean, I had modest expectations. I obviously had seen the Rotten Tomatoes numbers, and I had heard some people talk about it.

[00:14:16] I found myself like really hoping the movie would be over. And that's another thing, like Tombstone, the pacing was just like popping. I mean, maybe you could, you can make a case that like the theater scene could have been cut down a little bit. And there was some minutes that they could have trimmed off, but it was pretty tight.

[00:14:44] It could have been a mini series. I put that in my notes. Yeah, I'm sorry. No, that's great. It just seemed like it was Two, they were trying to accomplish way, way, way, way too much. I love the creative choice that tombstone made to just drop us in the action, baby. Like just right there in the gunfight. Like, whoa, we're here, we're in it.

[00:15:15] I had pretty high expectations going into that film, because like I said before, I could pro I have like at least a dozen people I know that count Tombstone as their favorite film of all time. Some people, it's like a, a lifestyle thing. They derive so much meaning from this movie. And so I went in kind of expecting it to be great, and it was.

[00:15:46] The pacing was great. The acting was really fun to me It's a perfect example of like you don't need to be historically dead on with everything to pay proper respects to a really [00:16:00] interesting life story, and I think that Tombstone is one of the best examples of being respectful to somebody's life story who was an important figure in American history without like boring everybody with the details and on, on, on the flip side, Wyatt Earp, I think there was probably a lot of good intention there, like you don't make a three hour and 10 minute western epic with the budget they probably did that on and with the cast that they had in that and with the shots that they got and everything unless you're trying to like give even more respect to somebody's life story.

[00:16:44] Wow. The people that were carrying his casket were, like, emotionally destroyed because this man was the foundation for their art or whatever. Fascinating. Yeah, I didn't know that. He consulted, and when they first started making westerns in the nineteen Like a mythic legend of, uh, western lore. In the [00:17:00] early 1900s, he started consulting on films.

[00:17:26] That was well said. They were trying to do, like Drew said, they'd have been better off turning it into like a three movie trilogy or a mini series, which that was a big thing in the 90s too. They had mini series on like PBS and stuff. Those were a thing. That movie was just a swing and a miss. But it's still important to cover because it's rare that you find two films released at the same time that cover the exact same story.

[00:18:04] Cause I'd already watched tombstone. I was like, Oh, I know what's going to happen here. And it does. And it's like the same. So it was interesting to see those same historical points, uh, shown from two different perspectives. I'd say that's really the positive from wider. This is another perspective, maybe.

[00:18:30] You've, it's been glorified a bit in your memory, you know. Yes, but we kept this because, like, what Phil exact, said exactly. These movies came out at the same time, about the same exact story, different perspectives, but the same story. Both. Casts, whatever you want to say about Kazdin and Cosmatos both have their own Cosmatos was also accused of being a ghost director on Cobra because in Stallone, Stallone did openly admit to directing that, not him.

[00:19:12] My grandpa, who I do not like, loved westerns, so I didn't watch them for a long time. I played Red Dead Redemption too. Kind of opened my mind and then I was like, you know what, I'm in a CI went through a Clint Eastwood thing, kinda like you went through your Al Pacino thing, where you watched everything he did.

[00:19:40] I, I like, you know me, you've known me since 2006. I like the same stuff that I liked when I was young, and if I like new stuff, it's old stuff that I'm just undiscovering now. Like a couple years ago, I love the Rolling Stones, you know, been around since the 60s, but they're new to me. I love them now.

[00:20:41] And you literally, there's no, there's no way to like, there's no blood evidence of anything. It's like. It's like, I didn't kill him, Jimmy saw it. Jimmy, is that true? Yeah. All right. You're innocent. Yeah, exactly. I felt that was actually a really comical part of both of those films. It's like the trials were like straw man bulls**t.

[00:21:14] Like, um, the Clanton family, one of the interesting things I read about the Clantons is like when all, a lot of these criminals ended up in tombstone because they were, because Texas was becoming more progressive and Texas was starting to deal with less. Uh, criminality, and they were starting to formalize the law.

[00:21:51] They were embracing European fashion, and they wanted laws. But they were also didn't have a lot of infrastructure. The Clantons literally went to [00:22:00] Arizona, squatted on land, stole, they, they, they think stole. They had 700 heads of cattle. And a lot of people thought that, they're like, oh, this is great, they're bringing beef.

[00:22:22] People would change their name. There was literally no record. Yeah. Anything. Yeah. So I don't want to ramble on much longer, but just to kind of paint the picture of the region and I don't know what this has to do with my impressions, but anyway, it's more just kind of, you know, waxing about the point that, you know, and we've talked a little bit about this when we cover Braveheart, but to make a great story and to tell a great story, I'd almost rather you fudge some things.

[00:23:01] Yeah, totally. Let's keep it fun and tight and make some things up along the way. The biggest point I have besides the big dumb cast on Wyatt Earp is that they, they, the big dumb, I love saying that. That's like a thing now. That's like my thing. That's my biggest pet peeve. Like, when they, when you have like Heat, when you watch Heat, you're like, Incredible.

[00:23:28] None of them were in the same movie. What I'll, what I'll close with on my impressions is W Earp tried to be more factual. They did fudge some things and they, they chose interesting areas. But by all, in all, with all the, with the biographies that I read and the books that I read, they were more closely aligned, like not fully, but pretty aligned on a lot of facts.

[00:24:01] Six. Six months. Little bit early in the movie. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Seven years later, six months later, 17 years. It's like, what? Yeah. Why is a life story? Yeah. They didn't spend enough time on, on anything to make it interesting. And the time that they did spend on things, they didn't make it interesting. Yeah. You know, like they just.

[00:24:35] But I just didn't buy the transformation from Wyatt Earp who was in love and infatuated with a girl that died of typhoid fever. He was so monotone the whole time. He was the same guy. And it doesn't make any sense. I mean, you look at Costner coming off a field of dreams and dances with wolves, right? I mean, this is a guy that's kind of like on the apex of his career.

[00:25:11] Oh, just more attractive. Well, not only that the girl, okay, this was, I was texting you guys this and I couldn't remember. f**ing name. Josephine from Tombstone was insufferable. Like that was my really only my main gripe with that movie was that girl. She felt like she was like a nineties mom that they just like wholesale transplanted.

[00:25:45] I thought she was the first character, outside of Dennis Quaid's character, that brought any energy, and any kind of like, finally, I was like, actually paying attention and leaning forward when she was talking, because like, wow, she's, she's actually good, and brought, like, she was kind of in her own movie, she was doing her own [00:26:00] thing, and nobody was matching her level, but I thought she was great.

[00:26:15] Interesting. We've got a category for that. Save your juice. I enjoyed his performance. It was good. I mean, I don't have any quips with it. The only quip I have with it is that he was, he looked odd in it because he was doing so well and everyone else was s**tting so bad that he looked strange. He was, yeah, he was so good.

[00:26:46] Man, it feels good to say that again. It's been a while, huh? This is really great. So we talked about Val Kilmer. He's kind of known as, not, not full on Method. He's not Daniel Day Lewis. It's Marlon Brando level of method, but he's, you know, he's got some method to him. Um, he asked that his deathbed be filled with [00:27:00] ice so that he would shake in his deathbed.

[00:27:17] Texted you this as like a, like, you're not going to believe who was going to be cast as Doc Holliday. Originally, Willem Dafoe was supposed to take that. No way. That You texted me that? I must've missed that. Well, I texted you, I was like, you're not gonna believe, and you never responded, so I didn't do the reveal.

[00:27:45] Yeah. That's, that's a dick move. Especially for your best friend. I'm a terrible Willem Dafriend. Yeah. Oh my god, that's Defer to defriend. Um, but yeah, and the reason he didn't take it because he actually, there was a [00:28:00] little bit of a stain on him after he did The Last Temptation of Christ with Martin Scorsese.

[00:28:18] Last Temptation of Christ. I hear that. Sometimes you gotta let some time pass. Wyatt Earp actually, uh, so he died in 1929, uh, as we mentioned, but in 1915, he had become a consultant on Westerns, so they started to use him. So he came on set, talked about his life, and talked, and so he, in a way, not only did his life shape the, what Westerns would look like by his stories, but he actually was on set teaching actors and things like that, so that's really cool, full circle.

[00:28:55] Like, Wyatt was there, but that was actively Virgil taking the lead and doing that. But in neither of [00:29:00] these movies was he, was Virgil a predominant guy. It's all about Wyatt. But, dude, Virgil and Morgan were both just as legendary in real life. Yeah. Um, so really interesting he came full circle. Um, I love this.

[00:29:24] They just said, we're not gonna tell you what to do. Here's the idea. You just go do it. I don't know about you guys, but given that fact, he crushed that. He is such a dick. Oh yeah, he was He changes his tune real fast though. And equally as good performing his tail being between his legs. Like, I bought that, that full circle, like, when he tells him he's Wyatt Earp, he's like, yeah, right, and the moment he realizes outside the saloon that he is, in fact, Wyatt Earp, he looks like his stomach had been ripped out of his body.

[00:30:02] We have a category for this later. This may be dumb to say, but you, I did ask myself, are those mustaches real? In Tombstone, those Mustaches are in fact real. I was wondering that too. They look real. They look good. And that was at the behest. Uh, Cosmatos demanded that. That's great. If he did actually direct the movie and not Kurt Russell, he did demand that they grow their own mustaches and they look fantastic if I don't mind, if you don't mind me saying so.

[00:30:37] You should have kept them, like, handlebars, like, straight up. Why didn't you do it? Probably because your wife would have hated it. Like, you would have, she would have hated a stache. Well, then I would have to shave the stache, and then I'd have no facial hair. Yeah, and I can't grow facial hair. This is, I literally haven't shaved in, I don't know, two weeks.

[00:31:11] He was the ghost director on that. And if you remember our Cobra episode where we went against raw deal, uh, when Stallone would randomly not be directing, which was rare cause models would come on and bully people and scream at people because he felt like, intimidated that he wasn't actually directing the movie.

[00:31:39] I hope I'm saying that correctly. It's J A R R E. Is it Jarre or Jarre? No idea. We'll just say Jarre, because we're in Tombstone and we're influenced by Europe. He likes jars. Hey! Jarhead Marine Corps Bean came out and said he didn't direct it, and that's because he was friends with Jar and he, he accused, uh, Russell of lying about that, so.

[00:32:16] For those scenes peacemaker. Imagine if he just dropped it for peacekeeper, which was it? Yeah. I don't know. You would know more than me, but there was a lot. There's a lot written. Well, he had his, it was like a custom handgun that he had. Mm-Hmm. . That was a revolver. Yeah. It said peacekeeper or peacemaker or something on the side.

[00:32:42] I love it that we have, you said we 46 episodes, we're now getting into like. themes that we see little trends. You remember our Crimson Tide versus the hunt for red October episode, Gene Hackman, again, 10 minutes of screen time, third billing for his 10 minutes in wider third billing. He was on the poster.

[00:33:15] Oh no, that was the firm. This is the third time we've covered Gene Hackman. It was the firm where he was mad that Tom Cruise got top bill because Tom Cruise was still coming up. And so there was this whole big thing about him not having his name on the poster. Hmm. So this is a recurring thing with Hackman.

[00:33:46] It's hard to say. Tuberculosis or not to tuberculosis, that is the question. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I was gonna say Dennis Quaid looked really skinny in that movie. I didn't. He honestly didn't look like himself. I wasn't in my mind that that was Dennis Quaid. It took me a minute. I went into cold, I didn't look at who [00:34:00] played who and I had been watching Dennis Quaid in the movie thinking, when is Dennis Quaid going to be in the movie?

[00:34:22] I'm getting tombstoned tonight! I tell you what. Why not? Why not? Why not? Get out there! We're gonna go to the tombstone! We're gonna be influenced by Europe, but we're gonna have weak infrastructure, we're gonna allow the cowboy gang to come in via Mexico and the judicious oversight of the state of Texas and they're gonna flood our state and they're gonna, they're gonna do stuff to our people man!

[00:35:00] Phil. Oh, this isn't even close. I would say in Wyatt Earp, Kevin Costner was at the pinnacle of his acting prowess. He was just out there Costner ing his best. He was composed. He was boring as f**. No one wanted to watch that s**t. No, I'm just kidding. Dude, the, uh, Kurt Russell and, uh, Val Kilmer. It's a landslide in that situation, like even though there, I don't know what it was about the Dennis Quaid performance of Doc Holliday that I thought was Val Kilmer's performance was super over the top.

[00:35:44] The Tombstone crew was a lot better than the Wyatt Earp crew, and it wasn't even close. Like, Kevin Costner's performance, like we've talked about a million times, to me, it felt like he rolled out of bed, they slapped a cowboy hat on him, and stuck cue cards in front of him, and he's hungover the whole time.

[00:36:17] That depiction of Doc Holliday is absolutely legendary. I mean he was just this like, gentry, southern, slow talking, I mean he was juggling a lot from being this like, rugged cowboy to being this guy from Georgia but with a little class But also being like classless, but also like having tuberculosis and dealing with all the sweat and having to, he just was able to manage a lot and, and just deliver absolutely legendary lines perfectly.

[00:37:01] I thought he did a great job. Uh, Kevin Costner, I'm confounded. At, at what happened there? I just Because you're a Costner fan, I love Kevin Costner. I mean, currently I love Costner in Yellowstone, but going back to field of Dreams and dances with Wolves and Robin Hood, and I mean, in the nineties, he was fantastic.

[00:37:32] I mean, everybody gets a mulligan here and there. Sure. The thing that I was trying to compare it to was Thinking about his performance in Field of Dreams, which is one of my favorite films and probably my favorite Costner film. And honestly, Kevin Costner's personality and portrayal of the guy in Field of Dreams wasn't all that different from Wyatt Earp.

[00:38:01] Often times portray some version of themselves. Kevin Costner just didn't work for that role. Like, he shouldn't have been Wyatt Earp. It didn't work. What's crazy, I guess the counterpoint to that is, and I know it's been 30 years and he's evolved, but his character on Yellowstone would have been perfect in this movie.

[00:38:36] Yeah. And Costner in all of his movies has usually been pretty laid back. And that, and that works if you want that. But for Wyatt Earp, there was, should have been more gusto, you know. Um, but that's, I completely forgot that he's in Tombstone, or sorry, Yellowstone, f**ing stone movies, man. , other stone tombstone, Yellowstone stone, field of stones, blue stone, field of stones, rolling stones, f**ing field of these f**ing things.

[00:39:21] In fact, I would say it's one of the best roles I've seen Qua in, unfortunately, for him. And I actually feel this way about the score too. Even though the score was repetitive, I thought the score was actually really good. It's just too bad that the score would always build up and reveal. Reveal something very mediocre.

[00:39:48] I don't necessarily blame him for, for what Wyatt Earp is. Costner is a guy who definitely has a thing. I've never seen him really transform a character in any movies I've watched him in. He kind of, in, he [00:40:00] takes on roles typically where he's very much the same at the beginning as he is the end. But that being said, in later years, like you said, he has shown range, not just Yellowstone.

[00:40:26] Now that was later in his career, but he has shown the ability to, to have some dynamics to his acting, but everything he did, I mean, don't you guys think from the jump from when he burns the cabin down and becomes a hobo on purpose and goes through this process that transforms into this hardened lawman, that something would change, like, but nothing he does.

[00:41:05] Interesting. And the reason he remained untouched was because of his relationship with Wyatt Earp. The real Doc Holliday was, he was, the reason he was no longer a practicing dentist, not only was he a horrible gambler, but he was a drunk. And he was a drunk dentist, and he was performing dental work drunk.

[00:41:55] He's like you're gonna just Kurt Russell, best performance I've [00:42:00] ever seen from him, and I love him. Absolute landslide, maybe a competition if Kevin Costner helped Dennis Quaid out, but this is Tombstone. All the way. All day and all the way. And I've got supporting cast, I know that by Supporting cast for Tombstone.

[00:42:33] I mean, between these two movies, if you just got the, the library on, of all of the actors in these two movies, you'd have a fair amount of movies to watch for the rest of your life. Cover about 50 percent of the Screen Actors Guild that day. Yeah. Wyatt Earp, Gene Hackman, David Andrews. Linden Ashby, Jeff Fahy, Joanna Going, Mark Harmon, Michael Madsen, Catherine O'Hara, who was unfortunately not dealing with Kevin McAllister, but Kevin Costner.

[00:43:16] Yeah. Even in the old westerns, like going back to the Dollar's Trilogy, like, even supporting cast and the villains, like, they It was often overdone, but they stake their claim. It's, they're minimalist movies. You know, there's not a ton of dialogue, they're snappy, it's kind of jovial, but it's very serious, some of the older westerns, but they're memorable, like, you just can't help but remember the villain from A Fistful of Dollars.

[00:43:53] Oh, yeah. She's hilarious in that, like, it's also a little unfair, even though we do You have a good supporting cast in Wyatt Earp, Tombstone. If you're [00:44:00] gonna put Sam Elliott, Bill Paxton, and Michael Biehn in there, that's pretty heavy lopsided. Especially on this podcast where we love Michael Biehn and Bill Paxton.

[00:44:22] Yeah, why did he kind of disappear? I mean, name another Michael Biehn movie, other than the three that we just listened. That's a good point, he's great. He's fantastic. I know! What happened? He was the lead in the biggest sci fi movie in the frickin early 90s? Well, two of them, Aliens and Terminator.

[00:44:51] All right, Lunger. You know, he's dark. He's very dark. He's mysterious. He's got this kind of brooding. Yeah, it was kind of weird to see him as a villain, like a [00:45:00] bad guy. Seems like he's kind of usually someone you pull for, if not the hero, at least kind of the anti hero type. So yeah, this is Easy Tombstone.

[00:45:27] I think his role as the villain just was so phenomenal when he's just sitting there like he's so cold hearted. He's like jovial about evil, but it's like funny. Like when you're watching it, like you hate him and you like despise who he is, but also you got a smirk on your face because he's so freaky entertaining.

[00:45:59] And [00:46:00] didn't he look perfectly like a western villain? Like his face, everything about him looked quintessential to that role. He was phenomenal. Yeah, Wyatt Earp, I mean, and then I guess conversely, Wyatt Earp was supposed to be about Kevin Costner, uh, and his character, and not only did he not deliver, the cast also didn't deliver because it wasn't supposed to be about them.

[00:46:36] Like he had a lot of different names, he lived in a lot of different places. They haven't really nailed down a pertinent mythology about Curly Bill because he had a lot of identities. He lived in Mexico after he got ousted of Texas. He was, but what they did with him in Tombstone was perfect. And he was, we can't remember who played him in Wyatt Earp.

[00:47:12] He could have tipped the scales for that movie on his own from the sheer fact that very little was done with the most plentiful supporting cast resources ever in Wyatt Earp. And so therefore I go Tombstone. I love Elliott. He was, he had to have been born a 55 year old cowboy. I know he, yeah, he just looks wasn't he?

[00:47:44] But Sam Elliott just felt extremely authentic to that time period in that whole situation. Yeah. And he was in, uh, I'm just now getting in the Yellowstone, Drew's recommendation. He was in one of the side movies, right? 1923. 1425. 1780. Didn't he [00:48:00] play Nero? No, he played, he was in 1883. Okay. Low key, uh, Sam Elliott recommendation, non Western, thank you for smoking with Aaron Eckert and Katie Holmes.

[00:48:24] Mustache, but it's shaved in the middle. Yeah, it's the, it's the opposite of a Hitler mustache. It's shaved in the middle, and you got two wings above the, uh, crevices of your lip. What is that called? I don't know. But yeah, it's, it's, yeah. These gets got the little, the side part there and the middle's clean.

[00:48:50] Yeah, what the f**? I mean, dude, Kurt Russell alone wins Tombstone with his, like, glorious face piece there that he had growing from his own [00:49:00] body that they styled to perfection. And it's real. That was an epic ass mustache. Look at that thing. That is unbelievable. Like, are you kidding me? Not even close. I was just about to say.

[00:49:25] It truly is. Truly. And also low key, like to your point, uh, Sam Elliott, I think he didn't just grow it for this movie. He's just been growing that for his whole life. Like that's just his look. He is the man of the stash. It works for that man. There's something about the vibe of the wardrobe on these gentlemen in Tombstone that is just a little different than Wyatt Earp.

[00:49:59] Mm-Hmm. . [00:50:00] Well, this is one area where they really leaned into and, and it's partially true. I couldn't read anything that said that the Earp brothers embraced that fashion. But in the movie Tombstone, they actually, during this time, because they were trying to be. more progressive compared to the rest of the outlaw country at the time, post civil war.

[00:50:38] I go tombstone too, and, and I hate to to to say it this way, but I actually think they did a really good job with the STS and the wardrobe and, and I think they look more prolific in tombstone, but I also think it's because the lips that are under those are delivering great dialogue in lines, whereas the lips underneath the mustaches and wired herp are dead on arrival.

[00:51:18] I'm just staring at that stash like, boy, that stash is dishing it out right now, baby. It's just, they become characters of themselves. It's also interesting now that just listening to you talk sparked this thought because of the hats and the stashes. There's not a lot left to look at other than the eyes, and they picked two guys, Kilmer and Russell, that just have absolutely extraordinary eyes.

[00:51:58] He gets that little beady eyed [00:52:00] squint, but his eyes are a little glazed over, and they're just like little black slits. Mm hmm. And he just actually looks like he's gonna freaking go off the handle. That's transformation. That's character transformation. That is showing us the change from point A to point B in a character.

[00:52:31] I didn't, I didn't pick landslide getting what it deserves a beat down. He say, why it God, why? Mushroom stamp on his fricking inferior. Not much of a gunfight. We got here. Yeah, no, it's more of a cockfight. Tombstone is taking wider. Yep. But maybe this flex category will help. You know, flex categories can demolish the card.

[00:53:06] Hoboery. Hoboery. Homelessness. He went to the haberdashery I love that you worked hobo Why I understand it would be if my wife died. I would be I had the same thought I'm, like so you're gonna burn your house down not even sell it become a hobo and start sleeping and you're like a well to do Man in the society like you're in like and you're just gonna start sleeping in people's barns It felt like a cheap way to communicate that he was depressed So biggest flex him burning down his own cabin when his wife died and purposely becoming a hobo or mr Fabian played by Billy Zane delivering Henry V speech while getting shot at on stage with a statue and doing it with a straight face.

[00:54:07] I was like, that dude is a f**ing badass. He just won that whole room with that move. Yes. He like went out there. He knew what he was going to be facing because like the guy right before him went out there and got shot at and he ran off the stage and was like, Oh my God, they're shooting at us. Billy Zane walks out there having just seen this happen, takes a shot, and just keeps going.

[00:54:43] And that's really what it's about. And he did that, and he became a celebrity in that town. So it was kind of a cool, sideways case study on, like, how How some random dude that just got off a wagon becomes a celebrity in Tombstone. And it was because of that decision to, you know, the show must go on. And f**ing badass.

[00:55:18] He made a makeshift Molotov cocktail. There's gotta be easier, less dramatic ways to start a fire than like, making a Molotov cocktail and throwing it through your front window. Yeah. At that point too, what's funny is, we hadn't been far enough in the movie yet to know how bad it was gonna get. Like, I still had a little hope.

[00:55:51] Because his first wife died, and then he has a second wife, and then he has an affair on his second wife. It's like, how long is this movie that you can be in love with three [00:56:00] different women? All these men in the books I read. That's a big flex. Oh, yeah. All these men had, uh, had lots of sex with three women in one film.

[00:56:21] I couldn't help but laugh because I was thinking, well, what if I got fired and I burned the building down or what if my wife left me and I burned her car down? Like, I'm just like, where where else? And I had a thought when that happened. If that was because of the perception around how contagious that disease was.

[00:56:59] Yeah, [00:57:00] I think they hadn't admitted bleach yet Yeah, I think they perceived was it typhoid fever as like it was in the wood in the house So the house, like imagine that s**t. You're somebody in your house gets sick and dies. And you're like, no, I got to burn my whole f**ing house. We would have burned every house that I know.

[00:57:33] As I was watching that film, I. felt like the director expected you to have a vested interest in the story of Wyatt Earp and have some background knowledge yourself going into that because they just glazed over everything like they moved at light speed through that entire story and didn't spend enough time on anything to give enough context to make it interesting like when the Curly Bill scenes are happening I didn't even realize who that was until he was out in the middle of the street shooting and only because I'd seen Tombstone, not because like they made it [00:58:00] clear as to who that guy was or what his f**ing deal was or what he was on about.

[00:58:16] That seems extreme, but like that was a big plot point that they just that they just f**ing flew past. And then my first thought was, why wouldn't he just sell it if he doesn't want to live there anymore or whatever. But I guess it was the wild west. They didn't have like real estate agents and appraisers and like, they weren't like making sure the house was Hey Jim, Betty died of typhoid fever.

[00:58:51] And that's what that movie expected from the audience. It expected you to know more than anyone watching a movie like that would ever know. So wider. I've got one. Yeah, we [00:59:00] got it. And the, uh, you know, flex. Most categories are good at leveling the playing field. I pull them in sometimes when I need to do, you know, do some damage here.

[00:59:22] Best depiction of tuberculosis. It's a very interesting category because Val Kilmer and Dennis Quaid both played their tuberculosis off. Very differently for both having the same disease. One was like, green, and shaking and sweating all the time. The other was very emphatic, smoking, running around, and he would occasionally cough really hard.

[01:00:06] Like when five seconds earlier he'd been fine. So that was like a little intense for me. So I'll give this to Wyatt Earp just because I did like a lot of the more of the subtlety in some of the Doc Holliday stuff. stuff that they had going in that film, including the tuberculosis thing. Like, obviously, that was a big deal.

[01:00:35] And still wear a coat in the Arizona desert when hunting Johnny Ringo down, wearing his pea coat with his sweaty tuberculosis sweat. Mm hmm. I don't know what tuberculosis does, so I assume that this is just a really vicious disease. It makes you a great sharpshooter. Everybody was, like, calling him names the whole time.

[01:01:10] So, apparently, people infected with tuberculosis don't have symptoms. When symptoms do occur, they usually include Glut cough, uh, weight loss, night sweats and a fever. Nothing about turning green and shooting people nothing. Okay. Drawing your weapons Very well. Apparently Johnny ring. Apparently one of those things today that you just take an antibiotic for are nearly good to get side effects of tuberculosis medication.

[01:01:43] That was real, by the way. Big Nose Nancy was, that was her name. Was it Nancy? That was her real name. Big Nose I don't think it was Nancy or something else. Whatever it was, Big Nose, like, she was totally fine with that name. Dude, yeah, I know. Everyone else calls me that. She thought it was a term of endearment.

[01:02:11] Something big like, uh. Ain't you a tall? Drew the Giant, and you show up and it's like you're 5'7 Aren't you a tall drink of water? Yeah. Drew the Giant. God, what would my name be? I don't know. I'd be crazy something. Crazy, crazy stuff. It's Confrontational Kyle. Confrontational Kyle. I also Curly Bill. That's the weirdest name.

[01:02:48] Like, didn't they say in one scene in Tombstone he'd been awake for 36 hours? Yeah, and the doctor was like, you gotta stop drinking and And I am under the belief, I, I do think he's one of the most underrated [01:03:00] actors of our time. Because I do think he ended up doing a lot of, like, B movies, cause he, you know, was hard to work with.

[01:03:21] Besides when he's shooting people, he's not physically active. Well, we tried. We tried, Wyatt Earp, but, uh, not even tuberculosis could save you now.

[01:03:52] I know, we can change it, but I, this, in any other type of matchup like this, this would be a great category. If we had two, if we [01:04:00] had two jokers, for example, we would be like Jack Nicholson versus Heath Ledger, this would be a great question. We have to make a case for the one we don't believe in. That's how we're going to do this.

[01:04:27] They weren't going to go see a three hour, ten minute movie with Kevin Costner or after the thrill, the absolute thrill ride that Tombstone was. I'm not going to make a case for Koster, but I think you could make the argument that he had less to work with in terms of the script. Less direction.

[01:05:01] Project yeah, what it felt like which is weird because I know that probably isn't the case But that was definitely what was coming across screen I just wonder if these executives that are sitting in the boardrooms like screening these movies is like did they like see this and like Yeah, yeah, I'm feeling this.

[01:05:33] Maybe they thought they were playing to their audience and the existence of tombstone didn't bother them because they were like, ah, tombstone's just wild. And now we're going to do this straight and down the middle. And it just didn't like, that's a really good point. And, and that made me have the thought, Why it felt like it came out earlier?

[01:06:02] Yeah, and they came out six months apart and Kazan I'm sitting here just looking at Kazan. I'm like just i'm like staring at his picture like tell me something How how did every right every Kazan listen and like you said directing and writing are two different things but to Be the writer of these films, of The Force Awakens, of Return of the Jedi, Empire Strikes Back, of Indiana Jones, uh, which Indiana Jones?

[01:06:41] That's such a good point. You're really good at being a beta, try being an alpha. Yeah, it's like, not the same, you know. And this conversation is all the mental math we're trying to do to figure out why this category goes to Tombstone. Let's justify the existence of this bad move. Let's bring in Nick Saban.

[01:07:13] It is, I'm true. Six to one. . It's six to one. And, uh, I enjoyed, uh, unsheathing our six shooters together here in the room, . And, uh, I do, I do this, we did what now? . We, we, we skinned our smoke wagons. Yeah, we did. Which by the way, that was a saying I had to research because it sounded sexual that they called the that gun the cult that you Researched they referred to it as a smoke wagon.

[01:08:01] See ya.