On this episode of The Fifth Hammer Growth Podcast, join hosts Spencer Matthews, Dave Huffman, and Ryan Riley as they delve into the fascinating story of Pythagoras and the Fifth Hammer. It all started when Ryan discovered a postcard inside a book left on his desk by Spencer, bookmarked to this captivating tale. The tale spoke of Pythagoras, a renowned Greek mathematician, believed that by understanding harmonics, he could unravel the mysteries of the universe. One day, he heard a harmonious tone when five blacksmiths struck their hammers simultaneously, and it was the elusive sound he had been searching for.

But the story doesn't end there. Ryan, Spencer, and Dave share their personal experiences and how they applied the concept of the Fifth Hammer to their careers. Ryan reminisces about their time at Microbe Formulas, where they embraced the concept of minimally viable frameworks and learned the value of imperfection in business.

They also discuss the relevance of the Fifth Hammer thinking in various professional situations. Whether you feel misunderstood at work, are struggling to grow your business, or are experiencing rapid, uncontrollable expansion, this episode offers valuable insights. They emphasize the importance of seeking help and continuous personal and professional development.

Ryan, Spencer and Dave also promise to share frameworks, stories, experiences, and tools to help listeners level up in their lives and businesses. They believe that embracing the concept of the Fifth Hammer can lead to amazing results and staying ahead in today's competitive landscape. Join them as they explore the significance of the Fifth Hammer and how it can shape your identity, leadership, and way of life.

Ryan Riley:

So a couple of years ago, we were working Microbe Formulas. I was CEO, Spencer was chief of staff, Dave was VP of marketing, and I came into my office and there was a book. Do you remember what book that was?

Spencer Matthews:

It was a book by Seth Godin called What To Do When It's Your Turn and It's Always Your Turn.

Ryan Riley:

Yeah, and it's cool because it's kind of a compilation of short stories. There was a postcard inside the book and I opened it up. It was bookmarked to a story of Pythagoras and the Fifth Hammer and on the back of that postcard you wrote, "You are the Fifth Hammer."

So that's kind of where all of this has come from and from that day on, this concept of fifth hammer has been really a big part of kind of who we are and what we strive to be.

The story goes that most of you know Pythagoras from his... He was a Greek mathematician, the Pythagorean theorem and theory and formulas and things that he'd done are used even today so he had a huge impact in the world of math.

But at one point, he felt that he could solve the mysteries of the universe by understanding harmonics. For a long time, that was his goal and a lot of what we know today from harmonics and how music interplays together comes from the research and the work that he did.

Well, the legend goes that he was walking down the road, he was trying to clear his head. He was walking down the road and he passed a smithy and there were five blacksmiths that were working with their hammers. Every once in a while, all five of these hammers would strike at the same time and it would create this incredible tone. In his mind, it was the tone that he was looking for and so he-

Spencer Matthews:

Harmony.

Ryan Riley:

Yeah, it was that harmony, the tone. So he ran in there, and if you could just figure this dude in a robe running into a blacksmith shop, these guys were probably barrel-chested, no-shirt like-

Spencer Matthews:

Robe blows open.

Ryan Riley:

Yeah, you know what I mean? He walks in there and he takes all their hammers from them. He takes these hammers back to his shop, and they started studying these hammers.

The interesting thing about it, and I don't know quite the sequences exactly, but there were four hammers that were in ratio mathematically correct and these four hammers were like, for example, if you know anything about music or chords, it's like, I think hammer one and four were like a natural fifth, three and four, or one and three, three and four, they all kind of combined into what we know as harmonics in today's music and they were a natural fifth, the fourth, and they all kind of worked through there.

But the one hammer, the fifth hammer didn't match the ratios. It didn't match the-

Spencer Matthews:

Measurements and the mold and there was a pattern.

Ryan Riley:

Yeah, and, in fact, it was so out of whack that he discarded it.

It was interesting because as they started to work with these four hammers, they couldn't make the same tone. It wasn't the same sound that he was looking for until they brought that fifth hammer back in. Even though it didn't match the ratios and mathematically it was incorrect, it wasn't until they brought that fifth hammer back in that it actually created the tone and the sound that they liked and that they were looking for.

We think it's interesting because in business we have standard operating procedures. We have things that are just, this is how things are done-

Spencer Matthews:

Systems and processes.

Ryan Riley:

... there's systems and processes and for anybody that knows me, I'm not a systems and processes kind of guy. I'm a shoot from the hip passionate-type leader. I think the cool thing is, is when you left that book on my desk and you called out the fact that you are the fifth hammer, and it really helped us grow that company to 50 million in annual revenue in just a little over four years, and then have the type of exit that we had.

So the cool thing about this whole concept of the fifth hammer, it's finding harmony in imperfection, but it also highlights the four hammers that were the structure, that were the standard operating procedures, that were the processes and procedures that companies need. But yet still having a little bit of that fifth hammer in there to mix things up, to challenge the status quo, to constantly think about pushing yourself forward-

Spencer Matthews:

To get momentum.

Ryan Riley:

... to drive momentum and to drive growth.

Spencer Matthews:

Yeah. I think there's so much about this story that epitomizes who we are, how we lead, how we live. I think part of that is Ryan identified as the fifth hammer and I don't at all. I identify as the other four. I like the organization, I like the structure. I like all of that compartmentalized, boxed-up perfect world.

But I see value and I didn't always. I was very much like Pythagoras and his understudies. I didn't always see value in the fifth.

Dave Huffman:

I'm in the space between four and five because I spent a lot of my life and my career creating plans and strategies and everything had to be perfect, had to have the perfect plan. And then I can't remember exactly what it was, but I learned this concept of minimally viable frameworks, mostly from the software world and I just fell in love with the idea that things don't have to be perfect to move forward.

Then when I looked back at sort of early in my career and applying that concept to when I was playing music, dude, we were terrible musicians, but we built an audience because we just got started. We honed in on what we were good at and we amplified that.

But when I read that story, I sort of identified with that. The reason why I talk so much about the harmony in imperfection, because I really believe in embracing imperfection, especially in business. You know, a lot of times we run into bottlenecks because we try to get things to be so perfect. How many times have you been in a meeting and people are just beating the concept to death with questions and, really, we could have already had the answer if we just took a couple steps forward and tried a version of it? There's always, always a minimally viable version of something that you can try to see if it's a valid concept.

The other thing I want to say is I've wrestled with this a lot over the last year as a marketer. Microbe Formulas had product market fit like nothing I'd ever experienced and what that led to was a wave of growth that sometimes felt like we were farting our way to 50 million. As I've been on direct-to-consumer Twitter, I see people they poo-poo that. They think if you worked for a brand that had great product market fit, you're not a good marketer because it was easy.

I can kind of agree with that, but at the same time, I freaking dare you to try and ride that wave if you don't know how. Because if you don't embrace fifth hammer thinking you're going to cause bottlenecks, it's going to slow down, you're going to fall off the wave and we had-

Spencer Matthews:

Fall over, yeah.

Dave Huffman:

... some tactics and a strategic framework that allowed us to ride that wave.

Spencer Matthews:

Well, I think the last segment here, we talked about what fifth hammer is, why we're doing this, but let's talk about who it's for.

Ryan Riley:

I think that to answer that, I'll just talk a little bit about me getting involved with Microbe Formulas and it started with my two business partners. One of them lived in my neighborhood, was a good friend. I went over to his house because he just moved in and I was like, "Hey, how can I serve you?" And long story short, he looks at me and he's like, "I need a CEO."

I think the key to that is that he was willing to accept the fact that he needed help. I think in every business that I've ever seen, there comes this point where you've taken it as far as you can take it, and you need help. Now, whether that help comes in the form of this podcast or comes in the form of hiring new people or bringing on new investors or what, there comes a point in your life where you get to a situation and in order for you to take the next step up, or you either need a little bit of a push, or you need a little bit of help, or you need new ideas, or new concepts or what, that will make you a better person, a better individual to the world, a better leader, a better employee, just better.

So for me, this is about helping that person that is trying to find that next level in their life. It's the ability to grow both personally and in your business, and the people that are looking for that next level, the people that are trying to figure out how do we turn the corner, there are some amazing stories that we're going to talk about and share, and some amazing experiences and frameworks that we put in place that allowed us to not only just ride the wave, but to stay ahead of it and to drive that thing to an amazing, amazing experience.

Dave Huffman:

But I would also say if you think it's growing like a weed and you can't control it, this is definitely for you as well. I mean, we're not surfers. Only one of us is a skateboarder. I've got terrible balance, but I can ride a growth wave, I think.

Spencer Matthews:

Absolutely. So yeah, yeah.

I think just to add to that and wrap it up, I mean, if you have any interest in personal development, leadership development, continuous improvement, whether that's personally, professionally, in business, in marketing as a leader of any capacity, leading your own growth journey, leading in the home, leading within your company, leading without authority as someone that wants to make change, but may not have the title or the position, the concepts, the frameworks, the stories, the experiences, the tools and tips that we'll be sharing over these next episodes, you'll find a lot of value from.

Dave Huffman:

And if that's too broad for you, if you are seeking a nine-figure valuation, this podcast for you.