Have you ever known exactly what you wanted, even if you had no idea how you’d get there?

In this episode, I reconnect with my longtime friend and fellow storyteller, Don Tincher, for a conversation that’s as spontaneous as it is heartfelt. We talk about everything from growing up in Richmond, Indiana, to the power of small steps, mentors who change your life, and why storytelling—especially in sports—is really all about the people.

We dive into Don’s journey, starting with his childhood dream to be a basketball coach and sportswriter, long before he had any plan or roadmap. Together, we discuss the evolution of news, the risks and rewards of technology and AI in storytelling, and what it really means to communicate and connect in today’s world.

Key Takeaways

• You don’t need the whole plan. I learned from Don that following your interest and taking the next small step often gets you farther than waiting for the perfect roadmap.
• Mentors and opportunities matter. A single teacher or chance encounter can open the door to a life you never expected.
• Every story is about people. Whether it’s family history, teamwork in sports, or writing for a newspaper, I keep coming back to this lesson: focus on relationships and human connection.
• Truth and trust still count. In a digital world crowded with misinformation, taking responsibility for accuracy is non-negotiable for me.
• Communication is a skill—and a service. I was reminded how being honest, empathetic, and tuned in to another person’s needs makes all the difference, whether you’re interviewing a coach or supporting a loved one.

What’s a dream you’ve been putting off because you don’t know how to make it happen? This week, let’s commit to taking just one step—reach out to someone in the field, read a book, volunteer, ask a question, or simply spend 30 minutes exploring where your curiosity wants to take you.

I’d love to hear what your next step is! Share your story with me using #EpicLivingPodcast, or email me at [email protected]. For more resources, free guides, or to find out how to work with me one-on-one, visit epiclivingwithjean.com.

Remember: It’s always about the story.

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Have you ever known what you wanted long before you had any idea how you were going to make it happen? Maybe you could picture the life, the work, the place that you wanted to go, and the things that you wanted to create, but the road between where you were and where you wanted to be was completely invisible. I think sometimes we assume that having a dream means having a plan, and it doesn't. A dream tells us where we want to go. The plan often reveals itself one step at a time, one person and one opportunity at a time. My guest today is someone that I have known since high school, and our conversation was completely spur of the moment. I happened to be back in Richmond, Indiana, where I went to junior high and high school, and I invited my friend Don Tincher to sit down and talk with me. Don has spent most of his life around sports as a writer, coach, scout, sports information director, and storyteller. But what struck me during our conversation was how early his dream began.

When Don was about 12 years old, he decided that he wanted to become a basketball coach and a sportswriter. He didn't know how exactly that would happen. He hadn't mapped out a whole career path. He didn't have all the resources, experience, or connections that he would eventually need. He simply knew what interested him, and then he began moving toward it. He became a manager for a sport that he could not play. He learned by watching. He practiced writing stories that no one else would ever read.

He asked questions. He found mentors. He coached, scouted, and wrote whenever the opportunity appeared. And somehow all those individual steps eventually became the life that he had imagined. We actually began today's conversation by talking about genealogy family cemeteries, and the stories of those who came before us. From there, we wandered through basketball, newspapers, the Indy 500, mentorship, technology, artificial intelligence, trust, and communication. But underneath all of it, there were 2 powerful ideas. First, you do not have to know exactly how a dream will happen before you begin pursuing it.

And second, no matter what kind of story you are telling, it is always about the people. So as you listen today, think about your own life. Is there something that you have wanted for years but have not pursued because you cannot yet see the path? Maybe, just maybe, you don't need the whole plan. Maybe you simply need to take that first step. Let's get started.

Good. Before you joined us, we were talking about, um, family research and, you know, family trees and things like that. And Don was going to start talking about how he got into it. So before we start that, go ahead and introduce yourself.

Okay.

And how I, how we know each other.

Hi, I am Don Tincher. I am a 1981 Richmond High School graduate where we both attended, uh, you and I and And Dan. Yeah, Dan and I, interestingly enough, Dan is one of the people that I've known the longest in my life.

Because you guys went to Pleasant View, right?

Yes, we did. But we also— oh, you may not know this then— 3rd grade, I went to Hibbard.

Okay.

And he went to Hibbard.

Yeah. So even before then.

So just— but it was just one year. And then we met again in 7th grade and He couldn't remember my name. He called me Tinker. And there for a while, it was, I was kind of, everybody was calling me because I was new there. I had moved from a different part. I had gone to Westview. So I've totally, you know, with a bunch of different people that I knew, maybe like 2 people in the school when I went there. So nobody really knew my name anyway, but eventually that, that stopped, but it was kind of funny at the time because he, You know, it'd been 4 years since we had seen each other, and you're, you know, what, 12 years old, right? You don't remember all that kind of stuff.

So we would have been 8, I think, maybe 8 or 9 when we met. So you don't remember that kind of stuff, but it was just, it was just humorous. So we've— that's kind of how we know each other, and we've been seeing each other at reunions over the years.

So, so I'm gonna fill in a little bit.

Richmond, Indiana is on the eastern side of Indiana, right on the Ohio border. And I've done a couple podcasts in the back where I mentioned that, but I was not from Richmond, Indiana. I moved here from Texas when I was in 7th grade, and it was total alien to me. So different than what Houston, which was in the middle of the oil boom, coming to this very small manufacturing blue-collar town was a big change for me. But when you mentioned how you and Dan had kind of reconnected, that was, I think, the one thing that was very foreign to me because everyone in Houston was new. I mean, the area we lived in basically didn't exist, you know, 3 years before we moved there. So we had people from all over the world in my own block. The school I went to was brand new.

So it was different for me to see these relationships that had been built Years. I mean, you guys grew up together and we got to high school and everybody was, what junior high did you go from? Because you all had these cliques that it was very hard for someone from the outside to get into, much less even understand. But there is a beauty in the small communities and I love looking back what Richmond, Indiana brought.

Well, And I guess on that note, when I went to high school, I knew a lot of people because I had lived in different— I essentially lived in 3 of our 5 different junior highs areas. So I went to Hibbard. At Westview, I would have fed into Dennis. And then we moved and I ended up going to Pleasantview. So what you were talking about, I actually knew more people when I went to high school than probably most people did. Now, I didn't know all of them very well because it was, you know, for like the kids that I went to Westview with, I hadn't really seen them in 3 years. Kids I went to Hibbard with, other than a couple that had moved to other places where I stayed in touch with them, it had been what, 8 years or whatever before we got to high school. So it was kind of weird in that sense.

And another thing that is weird, and, and I don't know if this is the true reason, but our High school was huge. Yes. By comparison.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. If I remember correctly, and I may be off base, but I think there was over 800 kids in our graduating class. Some.

But I think most of the time in our era, it was somewhere between like 650 and 750. Yeah. 800, maybe. You know, it's hard to tell.

But the interesting thing is most people don't have that. I mean, there's so many people that I meet that went to high school and there was, you know, 40 kids in their senior class or, you know, maybe even 100.

Well, and you think Our school, when we went to it, it was only a 3-year high school.

Yeah. So that's even bigger.

Yeah, because that's even different than it is today.

So you have a bit of a sports background, so we'll get into that in a minute. But I had always heard that part of the reasoning the high school was that big is because they didn't want to break it up because we had a pretty good basketball program and They didn't want to dilute that.

They didn't want to divide the schools in half. I remember people talking about that, but I don't think they did. But we had 5 junior high schools.

Yeah.

So that, you know, when you had 5 junior high schools, each one with a 9th grade, I guess that's a pretty good size.

Yeah. Well, and it would be hard, you know, looking back at how that— it would have been hard to— where are we going to put a second one? I mean, there was really no obvious division line.

You couldn't say, well, let's go Richmond East and Richmond West. It just wasn't going to happen. And in the long run, with the way things are today, with the enrollment declining, it's been a good thing.

Yeah. So what attracted me to you, why I wanted to talk to you, is because you are a storyteller like me. I love a good someday.

I get accused of that frequently.

But let's go back to what we started with. So we were talking about family. Dan and I had a chance to visit some of his family. Dan was born and grew up here in Richmond, so he still has family here. Um, and we were talking about how much, um, that means to us now, you know, as I'm 60, about to have a birthday next week.

Yes.

Um, 60-something. That means a lot more. We— and Dan's aunt who we visited was in her 90s, and, and you don't get a lot of that nowadays. So it was really special. And you mentioned that you had gotten into this family history early. So tell me about that.

Well, it's one of those things that I don't know. I was always fascinated with that kind of stuff because my grandmother, my dad's mom, was a midwife. And so she— I don't know the count on the number of children that, you know, when you're on the side of a mountain in Kentucky, you'd be—

Yeah.

children you can actually bring into the world. But it was one of those things that I was always fascinated with where that came from.

And in those rural areas like that, and we're talking rural Kentucky, I mean, because Dan's family was from there too. The midwife probably was a keeper of records in their area because you didn't necessarily go to the doctor like you do nowadays. Yeah.

If you went to the doctor, you were pretty bad shape.

Yeah.

And so that was, you know, kind of the thing. But it was interesting to me because I can't remember. I know I was in junior high when this happened. I don't exactly remember when, but it was in junior high because I remember talking to them at the kitchen table about it. We kept getting phone calls from a lady that was writing a book about the Tincher family.

Oh, wow.

And all of the lineage and all that kind of stuff. So it, it fascinated me about that. But we never really responded with it, you know, because my dad, you know, who, who was 88, by the way, I just left his place here to come here. You know, it was just one of those things that it was, it was just fascinating as I learned, because I never met my grandfather. My grandfather passed away 6 years before I was born. my dad's school.

Yeah.

So, you know, it just was one of those things that they would always— we'd go down there and we'd talk to different people and that kind of stuff. And there was a family cemetery. So it's like you walk around there and that's kind of where that interest came from. But now I never really pursued a lot of that stuff. I just liked reading about it, just different things. But I really started with it when our son was born, just a little bit before that, you know, because it just kind of meant like, well, you know, I really want to— I want him to know, you know, where he came from. And my wife's family is crazy fascinating as well. There's a whole lot of them around here.

But anyway, her maiden name is Taylor, which, if you look at the list of presidents, there's a Taylor there.

Yeah.

And yes, that is part of her. She is part of that thing, which means then you are eventually going to get into a whole bunch of different people in that sense. That was really fast. Now it's an obsession for me. The last 30-some-odd years has been a obsession with it. I drive around all over the place taking pictures of tombstones and, you know, a lot of those kinds of things. And, and the, the interesting thing about that now is, you know, my, my son, our son, my wife and our son Ryan is an archaeologist.

Oh, wow. Now I wonder where that came from, right?

So yeah. Yeah. So no, no kidding. But anyway, um, we, uh, we went to visit him where he was working over in Ohio and we ended up in a cemetery. taking a picture of baseball, right? Cy Young's grave.

Oh, wow.

So it's like, that was— it's kind of what we do, you know.

Okay. Now, in their defense, I have to say I am a huge cemetery fan too.

Yeah.

And in 2021, I took my road trip, and that was one of the things that was very poignant. When I started, I stumbled upon this cemetery that was on the top of a hill, which I'd never seen anything like this before. And I love just walking through, you know, you learn so much, especially with the older tombstones. There was so much more information on them than you get nowadays.

And if you can read them, it's great.

Yeah. And it's, and, you know, just always makes me wonder about, you know, you see the mother that outlived her children, right? And, you know, sometimes they'll, you know, have some snippet about what they did, you know, especially if they were like a doctor or something. And it was just, it's fascinating.

Yeah. And, and, and of course my, my wife has told me, her name's Becky, by the way. Um, just for the, the listeners, I know. But anyway, uh, she's always told me that the worst gift that she ever purchased for me was a subscription to newspapers.com.

So, so, so do you get all the newspapers there?

Everything that's on there. And, and, and the really the, the, the bad part about it is, is that the Palladium item here in Richmond is on that. So probably 95% of everything I wrote in the newspaper is on there. So if I go back and look at stuff and I don't remember writing that story or what have you kind of thing, it's kind of funny. But that's a great avenue for family research because you can get all kinds of information from, you know, frankly, obituaries and weddings, you know, announcements and that kind of stuff.

And a lot of that stuff is public record too. So even when you're doing searches online, right?

And it's harder to do online. If you do, if it's a newspaper that has that kind of information, which a lot of them do, you know, you can— it's easier to find because you just, you're basically Googling it.

Yeah.

And it's easier to find and you don't have to go ask somebody in some office, hey, can we look at something and triplicate it? Right? Yes. Yeah. You don't have to, you can get around that stuff and it's It's really interesting to look at that stuff. And I've got some pictures of, you know, my grandmother doing different things and stuff like that. It's pretty interesting to look at that stuff. And when you start thinking about all the family stuff, it's really crazy because I've been fortunate that the lady that wrote the— we actually, I have a copy of the book that that lady wrote.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I eventually figured that out. I was like, oh wait, this is the lady that kept calling us. So I have that book. And then there's another book that's in Preble County that I've made copies of, of that. And that's on my mom's side. So it's— I've been able to really put a lot of things together to go back. I think the oldest tombstone generation-wise that I've found is probably 7 generations back.

Wow.

In Preble County.

So now just totally kind of out of the blue because I just am interested. I was really fascinated by family too. My story is a little different because I'm adopted, so I don't really have any real family history. So I'm, you know, kind of interested in where I grew up. But is that still something that's big today with like kids that are growing up? I mean, I don't— I wonder whether there's as much interest in—

In some ways, You know, like, well, like my son's not 100% interested in it right now, but there are things that he's interested in, obviously being in archaeology. There's stuff that he's, you know, you start thinking, oh, he's a lot smarter than I thought he was. Yeah, yeah, we can't say that. But, you know, it's just interesting though, because, and I think eventually he will be interested in that kind of stuff, but I've been able to find you know, way too much. I'm related to a guy that played with the 1927 Yankees with Babe Ruth. His name is Earl Combs. That's— we have that my 5th great-grandfather and his 2nd great-grandfather are the same person.

Wow.

So I've been able to trace that back. And then there's another one that's very interesting. He is the only person ever hung in Breathitt County, Kentucky, which is where Jackson, Kentucky is, which I believe is the next county over from where Dan's family is. And so he was hung by his cousin.

Was it a family dispute? Do we know what happened? Or was he the sheriff?

No, no. Well, the The person that did the hanging was the sheriff.

Okay.

And then the, uh, person that was taken care of was like a distant cousin, but they— he was one of those people that participated in feuds and, and different things. And, and he's— yeah, it's, it's, uh, well, the, the county's known as Bloody Breathitt, so that ought to tell you a little bit about what's going on.

The reason I wonder though is, you know, there's such a trend in society to kind of wipe out history.

Yeah.

Um, which is exactly why I think it's important.

Well, for, for the listeners, look up Bad Tom Smith. That's who you need to look up. Okay. 1895.

Okay.

I've been there. There's a sign along the side of the road where things happened. Yeah.

Yeah.

It was, it's—

So I just, I love the fact that we all have those stories. I mean, most people don't know the stories in their family, but we all have them. They're all there.

Yes.

And I think it is important. I'm always talking about the story. I think it's important to know the story and to tell the story and share the story, good or bad.

Right.

I mean, you can't get away from what happened. And people have to remember that the bad that happened made you, you or your family or your community, whatever. That's how you got where you are. So you can't write it off.

No.

Do you feel that any of this history, any of this study and research that you did helped guide you to, you know, you getting into writing and newspapers and things like that? Was there any tie-in?

Yeah, that's actually more of the reverse, if it makes sense. Yeah, the sports thing and the writing part of things came about because I was terrible. As an athlete, I was, I was also very tiny. So I did, I didn't really grow until I got to high school.

Yeah.

So everybody was bigger than I was, and I really was horrible.

So that was your way to participate?

And, and honestly, what, what happened was, I was, I was always interested in it and so in grade school, but when I went to 7th grade, my guidance counselor was named Ray Davis. And I can't remember how all of this came about other than just my mom talking to him one point in time because she was like involved in the PTA and just different things. And he introduced me to a gentleman named Mike Popresti, who you—

I recognize that name, yes.

Very much aware of. So I was 12 years old, in 7th grade, and he introduced me to Mike. And soon after that, Mike took me to a Northeastern, just up the road here, and a Hagerstown that way, uh, high school boys basketball game. Now, and he showed me what he did. We took—

So Mike was at that point—

Mike was the sports editor at the Palladium.

Okay.

At that, I, I believe he was. I think he was the sports editor, or at least he was a writer there. Yeah, I I honestly don't remember the timeframe of that, whether he became the sports editor or whatever. I'd have to actually look that one up. I don't really remember. But he showed me what he did. And that really kind of made me want to do that kind of stuff because I'd always loved reading the newspapers.

But you didn't really write.

I definitely didn't really write at that point in time. I just kind of I thought about maybe like being a broadcaster or something like that. But then after watching Mike do it, I realized that's going to be my, one of my ways in. I don't know exactly how that's going to happen. But that, you know, when you're 12 years old and you decide that, I kind of decided I wanted to be a basketball coach and a sportswriter. That was what I wanted to do when I was 12 years old.

I love it.

So it's like, to, to look back at that and know that Somehow I managed to do that and still doing that is rather crazy to think about it that way.

So when you talk about at 12 writing and being a sportswriter, I mean, there's a lot that you probably don't really understand at that point in time. So in your mind, what was your— how were you going to get there? What was your, like, you know, your plan, or did you even have one?

All I wanted to know, all I wanted was to just do it. And so there was not much. And so I wanted to get involved in as many sports as possible. So because of my athletic skill, yeah, in quotations, of course, um, I wanted to be involved in sports completely. So I became a, a basketball manager in junior high, but then I also became a a 9th grade football manager when I was in 8th grade.

Yeah.

And then stuck with it in 9th grade. And then in high school, I was a manager for football, basketball, baseball, and track. So I did—

Wow.

I didn't even know about the track. You were—

Yeah, I did, did all of those. I did all of those things because I, I thought, you know, I need to know this stuff.

Yeah.

And be around it and everything. And if I won't— and originally, you know, when I was really younger, I wanted to be, you know, baseball and that kind of stuff. But then, so for some reason, basketball in junior high kind clicked because that was more I was involved with.

Yeah. And well, and you know, you're in Indiana, right? And you know, at that point in time we had a huge basketball program, so I mean, that was the, the default, right?

Yeah. And that was the, the thing was like, okay, well, that's going to be the thing I'm going to coach because that's the easiest thing for me to learn about because it's something that's here.

Yeah.

And I can, I can get involved with it a lot more.

So, so when did you start writing about sports?

Uh, the, the very— well, I wrote term papers about sports in junior high. That was, that was one of the things that I, I did. Um, but like my first actual real honest published story was my junior year of high school when I started working for the Register. Yeah, the high school news, which was our high school newspaper.

Now we had, and I'm sure I have a couple copies somewhere in a box because I went to Test Junior High. So I know we had a, you know, not really a newspaper, but we had something that came out.

Yeah.

But did you do anything before that or was it basically high school?

It was basically high school. Because there wasn't really anything. Pleasant View didn't really have much of that stuff. So I basically, any kind of writing I did was, you know, for class or for term papers or something like that. And Most of that stuff was about sports, ironically. So it was—

Well, that was a lot of our lives back then. Yeah. Um, did you love it when you started? I mean, was it— was— did it click, or did you do it because you wanted to do it?

It just— I, I don't know. It was, it was kind of weird because it just came easy to me for some reason. And I'm not sure, you know, because I ended up going to a couple more games with Mike later on. And then I went home and I practiced on writing the story about that. You know, of course, it never went anywhere.

Yeah.

But, you know, I kind of practiced at that. And it just was something that— it fascinated me, how that worked. And, you know, it just— I just knew, you know, that's where we were headed.

Did he— did Mike help you at all in those early days as far as the writing itself? Or was he more just instrumental in getting you to the Games and seeing what that was about?

Oh, well, Mike, I mean, Mike and I have been friends since then.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, and we frequently talk. In fact, the last time I saw him, we were playing cards with— and I was the youngest one in the room, which was a little crazy. But, you know, a bunch of old dudes playing cards at somebody else's house, you know, all newspaper people.

Yeah.

So it was pretty fun. But, uh, Mike and I, you know, he was always around when we were in high school.

Yeah.

So I would, you know, kind of pick his brain about stuff and talk to him a little bit and, and, and that kind of thing. But the, the interesting part was he, he took me to a Reds game, uh, one time, and, uh, when I was in high school. And so we talked all the way down and all the way back, and I, I talked to him about writing and, and different things and The one thing that I always worried about when I was in high school was deadlines. How do you meet your deadlines? How do you do this? Probably the biggest thing that he told me back then was, well, you write the story before it happens.

Interesting.

Not necessarily in that In detail. But well, not necessarily in that direct quote or whatever. But so like when I was covering a sporting event, I would think about, okay, what happens if this team wins?

Yeah.

What am I— what's, what's the thing that I want to write about? What happens if the other team somehow wins?

Yeah.

What do I want to write about? What questions am I going to have to ask the coach? Well, I'm doing that while I'm driving up to the place. And so when, when it actually happens, I've already thought about it. And it was always interesting to do that. And I got to see that in action several times with Mike. Mike at times would cover the NCAA tournament at Dayton. Okay. And I would go with him occasionally and I'm loser quotes.

Yeah.

What that means is, of course, Mike's sitting there writing during the game. He's writing during the game. And I started— I learned how to do that too, where like if I'm covering a baseball game, typing on my computer or even by hand, I'm writing stuff. I'm writing stuff. And so after the game's over, Mike goes to the press conference where they have the winners.

Yeah.

I go to the losing locker room where the coach is standing out there and talking, and that's all you're going to get from, from that standpoint when you're at the NCAA tournament. That's all you're really going to get. And so I, you know, go back and sit down next to him and feed him the stuff. But he's already written the story.

Yeah.

You know, that's how good he is. Well, he's already written the story with quotes from those people and everything. And I just go in and say, okay, And I would give him 2 quotes from the losing coach and he'd hit send.

Wow.

I find that so amazing because really that mentality is true in anything that you do. But how important it is in writing, especially for sports, because there's a very short amount of time. I mean, a baseball game, maybe a couple hours, but There's a lot that's happening, and to go in there totally blank and have to start from scratch, even especially if you start afterwards, I mean, I think that would be a real struggle. But going in there knowing that there's something that you're trying to get out of it, and that you have to fill in the blanks, and which direction is it going to go, but you've kind of thought it through. I think it's beautiful.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting though that you kind of mentioned something that I, and I didn't really even know that I did this at the time. There was a writer at the Palladium-Item. He was, he had been an intern for a while for us. And then he later became the sports editor. And I went back to work part-time for the Palladium-Item when he was, when he was there. And at one point during a conversation that we had, he told me that I gave him the best advice ever. And I was like, what does that mean? What are you talking about? And he said, well, I came back from a football game one night and it was a blowout.

And I was sitting in front of the computer And he, you know, he was struggling. And apparently, and I, again, I don't really even remember this, but this was what he basically told me. He says, well, you just told me to spit it out.

Yeah.

Just, you know, just get the basics, find the quote from both coaches.

Yeah.

Spit it out. And, and I basically, I said, just spit it out because you're not going to win any awards from a 40-to-nothing football game.

Yeah. Yeah.

You're just not. I mean, just, and just be nice, you know, to the team that's going to cop the zero. And I didn't even remember saying that to him, but it really is something that's like, you have to have some kind of plan when you, you know, either after the game's over, drive back, you're thinking about it, whatever. And, you know, it's just, it's, I don't know. I just, and Honestly, I learned that from Mike. That was the one thing that— and I was even told at one point, and this was on the negative side because I was in a meeting of some stuff, and he says, well, you really aren't Mike Papresti, are you? And I kind of took offense to it because it was like, wait a minute, you know, he thinks I'm copying him, but in a way I am because I'm like his That's who I learned from. How else? I always looked at it like, he's pretty good. If I'm learning half of what he's done, I'm going to be okay.

Now, the one thing, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the one thing that I remember about Mike is that he did an amazing job no matter what he was covering. in my mind, we kind of think specially, like I'm a fashion—

Right.

Right. And I guess sports is kind of its own little genre, but there's so much difference between baseball and football and track.

Yeah.

And was it difficult to really understand and be able to get into all these different— because you also, I remember we've talked, you did Indy 500?

Yes. Yes. And well, when I started, I started covering auto racing at the newspaper in 1997. And I remember Jan Clark, who was, who was my boss and editor at that time. He said, well, you know, they're really hitting us with this auto racing thing. You know, we need somebody that's going to cover this stuff and especially the local stuff because we had You know, Union County Speedway, Mount Lawn in Newcastle, Winchester Speedway, Eldora Speedway. Those, I mean, we had people from Richmond driving at those tracks in like their minors.

My parents were one of them. They loved it.

Yeah. So, I mean, and there was so much interest in it and it was one of those things that was like, well, you know, and I remember Jan asking me, well, what do you know about cars? I said, well, I get in and turn the key and drive. I don't know anything about the car. And he says, well, how do you do it? I said, well, to me, and this is all of these sports, it's about the people. It's not about the sport.

Hmm.

It's really about the people doing the sport. And, and, you know, there are certain sports that I still cover to this day. Sometimes I'm like a little confused about different things, like, okay, what, why do we do this? What is it that, you know, and, and having been a coach, for about a decade from junior high to college level. I understand how stuff works for baseball, for track, for field hockey, those, those kind of things. I just don't always know what the heck some, you know, what's the fundamentals of field hockey. I'll admit I have no idea. But if you talk to someone and they understand that you don't know, they will help you explain it a little bit. And that's kind of the way I approached the auto racing.

I didn't realize that I was that big a race fan until I started covering it, you know, because then I started thinking, you know, I really loved the Indy 500 all growing up. I just never really thought about it. You know, we'd go on vacation. I'd never been there. We'd go on vacation. I'd listen to the race on the radio because you couldn't watch it on TV back then, right?

Back in the days. Yeah, right. Yeah. We couldn't pull it up on our phone.

We're both too old to know that, you know, like, okay, that's how we had to do it, right? It was on radio. But that was one of the things that I told him, and it just seemed like that was a good way to get in. You know, I never really talked about what kind of engine is this? How fast does it go? I mean, does anybody really care? I mean, there are some that do, but those people get it from a different source.

That's not what they're going to.

That's not what they're going to the radio. They want to know how the guy felt when somebody punched him after they wrecked along the wall. That's what they want, you know? And I could do that because that's a people thing, right? And that was kind of my, my approach basically always has been, it's just, it's, it's people doing stuff. And so it doesn't really, doesn't really matter. And, and I remember writing stuff where they, the, the editors at the Palladium Item made us write stories. about other things sometimes. Like there was a special section of businesses at one point in time and I was assigned 2 stories and I'm like, I haven't any idea what I'm gonna do. So my one story was about a person that played the films at movies.

Wow.

So I had to go in and I'm like, I don't know anything really about that. I go watch movies.

Yeah.

But I don't know what you're doing in the big room where you've got things. So I did a story on that. I also did a story about a concert promoter who was using the old Milton School that's now torn down, of course, but he was using that as a concert venue.

Wow. I didn't even know that.

Yeah.

And so I was doing that. I'm like—

Because it's still people's stories.

Yeah. And that's exactly it. That's how you do stuff that you don't necessarily know a lot about in one sense, I guess. It's just, but you meet people and let them do it. That's kind of what's weird about this is you're actually interviewing me. I'm usually the one on the other side, right? And so it's like, it's interesting from that standpoint to be on the other side as well as having been on the side where you are.

So you wrote in high school for The Local. When did you start writing for the— because Palladium Item, for those who don't know, is our Richmond, Indiana regional newspaper. And that was back when that was pretty much all the news. I mean, we didn't have local news and we lived between Indianapolis and Dayton, so any major things were coming from there. So the Palladium-Item was really a pretty big source of information for our area.

Right. Well, I had written for the Ball State Daily News, Very briefly. I didn't do it for a year. Yeah, I didn't write very long because of the way my class structure was and everything, but I covered women's tennis. That was the thing that I covered for a whole year, a whole season for that. That's cool. That was part of a curriculum thing that you—

Did you go to school in some kind of communications?

Yeah, I have journalism education. I made sure from a coaching standpoint I needed a teaching degree.

Yeah.

So I got the teaching degree with journalism, phys ed, and history. So all of those, those things that were, you know, that was kind of where we, where we landed with that. But then I coached for a while right out of school. I, and I wrote my first story in the Palladium-Item in 1990. So it was, it was interesting.

Now, did you work for the Palladium-Item? And coach?

I mean, how did that work? Well, in those days they had what were called stringers.

Yeah.

So you'd be paid by the story.

Yeah.

So I would be— I was coaching and what they would do with me was when I coached in Ohio, so I would cover Indiana sports.

Okay.

So then when I moved on the coaching side, moved to Richmond High School, I covered Ohio sports and then I continued to cover Ohio sports when I quit coaching. And that's what led me into, you know, as a stringer and then becoming full-time at the newspaper and stuff. So it's kind of—

Do you think full-time writing was ever really your goal or was coaching so much a part of it?

It, the coaching part of things, I knew it would be tough because I never played.

Yeah.

You know, but I found ways in. I found I was a recruiter. I was a scout. I would go watch teams play, and then I would show how our team was supposed to play against another team. And so that was kind of my thing. I could— and I could obviously, as we're sitting here talking, I could talk to anybody about anything.

It's funny that you said that. I'm looking at all these little things. Okay, we have, you know, coaching and scouting and recruiting and writing. And the skill set that you need to be strong in all those are so similar. I mean, you need to be very observant and you need to be able to communicate and you need to be able to take what you're seeing and transform it to information to give to somebody else clearly. And it's like they're born to be together.

Yeah.

And that's kind of how that all worked out. And also during that time, I was working at Dick Bongerger's basketball camp and I ended up actually running that. for a few years as a, as his camp manager too for a while. Um, so, and so that's, you know, that was my summer. Yeah, I would substitute teach, coach, and then write all, all through all that stuff. And, you know, it just was one of those things I didn't really know what direction it was all going in.

You were just kind of rolling along.

I was just, I was doing the things I wanted to do, and then, you know, the opportunity came to write at the newspaper and it's like, well, that's where we're going to go. I knew long-term that's probably where I would go.

What do you think now about the way the world is? Newspapers don't have the place that they did. They're still very relevant.

Right.

But do you see a difference in the way news, especially sports, is handled just online compared to newspapers?

It's more It's more immediate now.

Yeah.

And that's very true. And it— and right now my current job is I'm an assistant sports information director at IU East. I was also— I was the Earlham College sports information director for 11 years as well. And so that's basically me covering our own teams and placing all that stuff online. So the stuff basically you see online for the IU East Red Wolves, Red website. Yeah, I write probably not all of it, but I write a lot of it and cover different things.

So it's kind of a different concept because now you have one, let's say one full-time person and a couple stringers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Where when you had a newspaper, you had to have a lot more people.

Yeah.

Just foot traffic because there's a lot more to cover. Right. Yeah.

But yeah, so this is, this, this is, there's a lot of similarities. But then there's a lot of differences as well. Like yesterday we had our media day for men's soccer and women's volleyball. So yeah, I, and I don't have a whole lot to do with that other than just kind of being there, making sure that I have all the rosters straight. There's somebody taking care of all the pictures.

Yeah.

I don't have to worry about that. I'm just going to be able at some point in time, go in, get a folder, take the pictures off and put the pictures on the website. So it's just kind of, you know, do you like different in that way, one over the other?

I mean, is there, 'cause I, I wonder, there's not as much of the same creativity necessarily that there is with that.

Well, yeah, 'cause I, well, I have my own website, so I write my, that some of that stuff goes somewhere else. I guess I get to do other things and I find different things to write about on, on the website and.

So you still feed that beast?

Yeah, that part of things that, yeah. And there are sometimes I get to do that. I've written for the IU East Alumni Magazine to do some of that kind of stuff. So in some ways it's different, in some ways it's— a lot of what I do now from a standpoint of covering our events is more like what we would do with, say, the Area Roundup in the old days. So you would see this Like you'd see the big football game on Friday night and then you'd open up the newspaper and then there would be some other things that are all in the, in the little section at the bottom where all the, all the other, all the scores are. And that's kind of where I'm at now is, but that's kind of what we're doing for IU East in a sense. It's those kind of stories. And they're important because you've got a photo online, you've got all the stats are online, you know, all of that kind of stuff.

We do broadcasting. You know, unfortunately, they let me broadcast on TV a few years ago, a few times.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that.

You know, it's like, whoa, wait, what am I doing here? But, you know, and, you know, so there's, there's some of that kind of stuff. And, you know, it's, it's a lot of fun to do all those things. And it is different. But by the same token, I'm different. I guess, in the sense of, You have to change. Who would have ever thought when we were younger that we, we would be sitting here today doing what we're doing right now?

No, there's, there's—

that's just not something you would ever think about.

You know, I'm the one who still can't believe, you know, the old phone lines— you could pick up a phone and call somebody on the other side of the country. I mean, technology is so out of my realm, and things are happening so fast. And I love that we can learn so much about So much at the moment's notice in the palm of your hand in the middle of the night when you can't sleep. Yeah.

Now, the one thing, the one thing that I do see that I don't like is the stuff that's wrong. Not that I'm perfect and don't make mistakes, but there's stuff like with this AI stuff going on that I see posted on Facebook, especially about baseball, because that's the one that annoys me the most. And you look at stuff and it's like, what are they— are these people even looking at what they're posting? Because it's so blatantly wrong.

And it is so funny you went there because that was really one of the— you know, because when I go into these interviews, I don't like to do a lot of prep work. I don't— I want to see where it goes. But that is— there's 2 things that I wanted to make sure we talk about, and that was one of them because There's a lot of negative things in the world. A lot of stuff goes on. But one of the things that I just see so much passion about is sports.

Right.

And especially when you have the home team sports and the one, you know, and it's whatever your team is. And how so often, especially now within this digital age, it's so easy to put stuff out there that there's not necessarily any fact-checking at all.

Right.

And people can run with things where at least with the newspaper, You kind of had a little—

Well, there was somebody else that could kind of monitor, right? There's somebody else that's looking at it.

Yeah.

And sometimes that stuff doesn't get looked at.

Yeah.

Um, the, and the thing that, the thing that I'm talking about, the mo— the thing that most annoyed me like 2 days ago. Okay. And I don't know whether these names will mean anything to you or whoever's listening or whatnot, but it was a graphic that listed the greatest numbers, uniform numbers of hockey players for the NHL teams.

Okay.

Okay. Okay. So I'm looking at this thing, of course, and it's a really, really, really long story, but I'm a fan of the Edmonton Oilers.

Okay.

And it's not because they won a lot. It's because when I was a really, really young kid, Wayne Gretzky, who is the star of Edmonton, played in Indianapolis. And that's where I got interested. And then I just followed him. Yeah. Okay. But anyway, so—

There were people that got you in.

Yes.

Yes.

So the Edmonton Oilers, his number was 99. And so I'm looking through this thing and I'm going like, number 9, he's not number 9. And then I look at the picture, the picture is a guy named Gordie Howe.

Yeah.

Who played for Detroit wearing number 9. And I'm like, this is labeled the Edmonton Oilers.

Yeah.

Are you not even looking at this? And that's the thing that frustrates me more than anything about what's happened, stuff that's out there right now and in anything, because I don't even know. I don't want to believe— can I believe what's posted after that? A story about something?

No.

And, you know, people just seem to be— I hate to say that people are making it up, but if they're doing something, they're not doing a whole lot of research and they're letting AI do stuff. And, you know, AI in some forms is great.

Yeah.

But would you please check what— if you're being told?

Well, and that's the thing that scares me about— I mean, because, you know, I'm a— I will be honest, I'm a huge fan of AI. But I do, it has its place. And fact-checking, like you, is very, very important to me. And I use AI a lot. In fact, my AI assistant, his name is George. I have, he has a title. Oh, there you go. And George and I quite often argue about things 'cause he, they're not always right.

Right.

And he will, you know, I'll come back and go, that's not right. And he'll say, okay, yeah, you're right. I'm wrong. But you have to care about it. So sometimes I wonder, are these people just so interested in putting stuff out there that they don't really care?

To just get the clicks. And so do they even care or do they even know?

Yeah.

That's the other—

It's like, like you said, chasing, you know, how many followers can I get? How many clicks can I get? So is there a way to repair that? Because, I mean, I see damage being done. And, you know, I'm a— I have— I'm part of a women's networking group. And Sandra Yancy, our CEO, uses the term, she says there's a trust recession. And you think sports is, you know, again, a passion for so many people, that that would be a place that you wouldn't have that problem. But yet they're preying on that.

The interesting thing is that there were comments below all of that stuff. And I'm reading them going like, well, I'm not going to comment on this. But There's like 5 or 6 people here have already complained about it. Yeah, something. And not, not even the thing I was worried about. They were complaining about something else. And then I went back and looked at that and going, well, that's wrong too. You know, it's like, because I didn't really look at it all close after I found—

Yeah, that was just stuck about the whole Wayne Gretzky thing.

Yeah, when I found out about the first mistake that I saw, I was like, well, I don't even— I'm not even going to go anywhere else. If you can't figure out that the best player in Edmonton history is number 99, Wayne Gretzky, And that's AI telling you that, then something's wrong. It's just one of those, one of those things.

Do you think that'll continue to be a problem? I just, I mean, from, you know, you've had your—

I sure hope not, but I can't, I don't know how it's going to stop.

Yeah.

Unless somebody actually stops it. Like you stop it when you see it on what you're doing.

Yeah.

I stop it on my stuff when I see it. There's people have to care about it. Yeah, they have to care about being right. But I don't know if they'll— I don't know how long that'll last.

Well, it's always interesting because you figure the people who are passionate about it, and again, sports is people who are in especially, you know, like, you know, I'm from Texas, it's all about football, right? When I came to Indiana, I had no idea what— I'd never seen a basketball game before in my life, right? Which is okay. But people are— my mom loves the best, so I learned quickly. But people were passionate. I mean, they knew the players, they knew the game. And so you would think that people were passionate about this, that they would care about it. But sometimes I feel like there's third parties out there that all they want to do is stir everybody up. And so we're not necessarily fighting the right people.

Right. Yeah.

But I'm really interested in how that has changed. Since kind of newspapers and magazines aren't as big as they were. And it's interesting to see your perspective.

I think it's changing a lot because more people have access to stuff that they didn't have. I mean, I have a YouTube channel. Why would I have a YouTube channel? You know what I'm saying? I mean, it's like—

Would you have ever thought that was the thing?

Yeah, no, I wouldn't have. I mean, we did some podcasts with YouTube, stuff. But it's just, I don't know, there's stuff that just people have so much access to the internet right now. And a lot of people haven't been, I feel in some ways, trained the same way that you and I were trained on different things as far as, well, what's protocol on how do you write a story? Do you have to talk to anybody else?

Do you have, you know, because I mean, I mean, do you have to say that this is my opinion? I don't necessarily have the numbers to back it up. I mean, right.

Yeah, you, yeah, you have to, like in the newspaper old days, you would, that's on the editorial page. Yeah, you can. And you can understand that that's an editorial. And when I wrote a newspaper column, my name would be at the bottom with the number on it. And you knew that it was a column. So that it could be opinion.

Yeah.

Now, when I'm writing a game story, that's not— the opinions are the people that are talking in the story, the coaches or the players. That's their opinion. I'm just spitting it out because that's what they said.

Yeah.

And that kind of makes it different in that sense. But I think right now, I think TV news has made the lines between what's factual and what's opinion blurred and really blurred in a lot of ways because people will turn on and it doesn't matter what network you're watching, you get opinion because it's entertainment now. It's not necessarily a news story or factual.

That's interesting. Yeah. It's just, and it's funny because I don't, I don't really watch TV. I'll be honest with you. Right. have too many other things that need to get done. I'm a huge movie fan, but I like, you know, I've got my 2 hours and then it's over. But when we were at Dan's aunt's this morning, she had the TV on in the background.

And I had no idea that there were so many daily news, quote, talk shows. I mean, there was like 4 in a row.

Oh, yeah.

And the sound was off, but you can watch, you know, what they're running up there. And I'm like, first of all, you couldn't tell which stories were like entertainment stories and which ones were news.

Right.

And that's something that's kind of new to me. And, yeah, and, you know, maybe I'm naive, but in my mind, the news is fair. What is it, fair and unbiased?

Right.

Or whatever.

Whatever. Yeah.

Is that even still a thing?

I don't know. In some ways, I don't know because I don't know if— I mean, I have taught journalism in— oh, gosh. Well, I had it. I taught a journalism class at Earlham College. an independent study type course for people. So that's been 12 years ago, 13 years ago. And I'm guessing it's changed a lot. I hear people talk about different things and it feels different when somebody's on TV talking about their training as a journalist and whatnot.

Yeah.

It just feels different. And what you— you're— I feel like sometimes they're just advocates for whatever they believe in. Does that make sense?

Yes, that's a really interesting—

And it's like, okay, well then why aren't you telling me something else? Yeah, you know, what's the— you know, because there are some, some things that, you know, people, they don't want people to talk or they don't want to get—

They don't want to hear that other side. Or I don't want to—

and, and as somebody that You know, we— I mentioned that 40 to nothing football game earlier. I'm talking to both coaches if I have to. You know, if it's a— if it's 2 local teams and you have to talk to both of them. Now, if it's a— let's say it's a team from this area and they're playing somebody from Terre Haute.

Yeah.

And the zero is in Terre Haute. I don't need to talk to anybody if the— and it's vice versa. If it's— if it's our zero and Terre Haute's 40, I still don't need to talk to the other coach.

Yeah.

You know, in that, that, in that context. But like, if I'm covering, and I've covered state finals before, if I'm covering the state finals, I'm trying to get perspective from both sides on that, even the winner and the loser. And that, because you've got to do that, they've got to make it fair in, in that sense. And I don't think it's today. Sometimes I get frustrated with that.

Yeah. And I think that Will be interesting to watch because I don't really see— that's why I was interested whether or not you saw an end to it or a solution to it, because I don't— I feel like it's getting worse.

I don't know. Yeah, I don't necessarily see an end to that kind of stuff. And it happens in sports. You know, we just went through the trading deadline for baseball, and there's so much speculation about this and that. And it's like, Who— I get people, and part of it is, is that there's so many people doing it. There's always an opinion about something. And it's, you know, when, when we were growing up, it would be maybe the local radio station, maybe like the Cincinnati Reds radio station.

Yeah.

And then maybe we would get a TV story.

Yeah.

You know, now you can open up your phone and it's like, You have filled with 12, 24-hour channels that all we talk about is, you know, that's what we talk. And so those people have to find something to talk about. And so it's like, you know, they're, they're talking about it. And then it does us good to stir people up because, yes, because that's how you— it's— yeah. So I don't know. I mean, it's, it's kind of what we do. I mean, what we're doing now, you know, like with our podcast that I did with Chris Cornett. A while back.

And it's just, I don't know, it's interesting.

So I'm going to totally go left field here. And this was the other thing that I wanted to get into. And the reason that we started talking, if you remember, I actually went back and looked up the conversation because you were so big in reporting sports and my husband played baseball for the Richmond High School. I had a crush on him back then when he was pitching. I just gotta say, my mom loved baseball too, so we were at all the games.

Okay.

But I find it fascinating because you will pull out articles that you find, and I have practically everything that you wrote too in a book of all his stuff from high school that I dug up. But it's so fascinating watching these group of guys that played together I think, what is it, 45 years, Adam? Or reunion?

It would be 45 years ago. Yeah, it's 45 years ago now.

What a great perspective for you because you were right in the middle of it and these bonds that were built and relationships that were built and you got to watch it and report on it.

Oh yeah.

And then now here we are coming back for the 45th anniversary or reunion, excuse me, high school reunion. What is it like to kind of go back and go, okay, that's who we were, but that's not necessarily who we are. But I mean, that's kind of still—

Well, it's interesting because it is in a lot of ways still who we are.

Yeah.

Because you're teammates for life in that sense. Especially if you do something really big. I mean, we went to the Final Four. And that, that's something that not everybody gets to do.

Yeah.

And so there's a bond there with that. And actually, I don't wear this very often. But I've started wearing it again. It's my Ball State Letterman ring. for basketball. And it's, it's 1985, right? But this past year was the anniversary of the 1986 Ball State basketball, men's basketball team that went to the NCAA tournament.

Yeah.

Well, I knew all those guys.

Yeah.

And so I'm like looking at this going like, man, I want to go see these guys again. You know, I wasn't on the team. You know, was I was I was actually a freshman basketball coach at Muncie North that year.

Yeah.

And, and so I called up to Ball State and, uh, and we had— when IU East had played an exhibition game at Ball State, so I had already met a couple of people. So I called one of the people.

You had some connections. Yeah. Yeah.

So I actually called somebody that I had met that night and that we played there. And I said, hey, I want to go to this game. Is there any way I can? And they're like, Well, yeah, just, you know, so I crashed the party. I went to, I went to dinner with the whole, all the guys. I sat with them at the game. Now they got to go on the floor and I just kind of sat there and took a picture of them sitting on the floor because I didn't belong there.

Right.

I was like, that was their—

Well, I don't even belong there.

But they were all teammates and I was actually still a student at Ball State when I was coaching basketball at Muncie North. So they— I was— I had, you know, I had class with a couple of those guys while I was there still, you know. So it was like— and, and they were all guys that I— there were like 2 guys out of that group that were— that showed up that I knew from that year, but they weren't teammates then because they were just new to, to Ball State at that point in time. So, but everybody else was that, you know, it was like, you know, there were probably I don't know, 10 of us that were there. And actually, the, the guy that was the head coach of Miami who they beat in the tournament now works for Ball State. So I knew him too. And so it was really cool because we— I actually sat next to him during dinner with, with the whole group of us. And it was just, it was good to be there with those guys because I hadn't seen some of them in a long time.

Yeah.

But I had talked to a few of them over the years and different things and different reunions that we had had there. So that, I guess, does that make sense? It's like—

Yes.

We are still who we are, but we're doing a lot of different things. You know, and I think that's what, you know, when we get back together with the group of guys from the '81 baseball team, which I think there's, I want to say 7 or 8 of us. I'd have to go back and look at the exact roster, but that core group of guys, we— well, who did you see today?

We saw Mike and it was funny because—

There you go.

And then Bobby Rich showed up. It was funny because at one point in time where I'm going, Dan, we need to get out of here because I got to get back and get everything set up before Don gets there. And I said, I just want you to know that we're gonna be talking about you guys, you know, just to warn you. But the thing I think is so beautiful, and I have a couple friends from high school that I'm still in contact with, and actually Stacy Baumgartner—

Right, yeah.

Is one of them, and I talked to her this afternoon. You don't see a lot of those connections nowadays. For a world that is so has so much contact and is so connected in general, I don't see a lot of really bonds that have held up through the years. Do you think the sports and the teams and the things like that help create and nurture those bonds as you go?

I think, well, from my personal standpoint, that's a yes. But I think there are so many other things like My son, when he was in elementary school, he was in school plays. And I remember having a talk with him at some point because he played baseball too. And he was kind of struggling with a few things, not in a bad way, but he just didn't kind of—

Trying to make decisions about it. Yeah.

And I said, look, this is the same as your baseball team. Now, it has nothing to do with baseball, but this is a smooth play. That's the same way you need to treat it, the same way you treat your baseball team. Because all of those people are there to do one thing, make this play really good.

Yeah.

And you're in it, and that's the way it is. Now, it's going to end, right? And you'll still be there with people that, and then you know them, But who knows, maybe next year you'll do a play again and some of those same people—

That same team will come together.

And then you'll come back together. It's just like playing baseball. You play baseball during the summer, but you don't play in December.

Yeah.

But those people are still your friends.

Yeah.

And that's kind of how— and he kind of got it then, I guess. I don't know if he was just kind of— he was a very— seemed very shy at that age. So he was kind of not necessarily really ready for that kind of thing. But I think it really helped him in the long run. It was one of those things that And I just remember telling him, hey, this is your team now. This is a school play. It's the same concept. It's not, you know, it's just what it is.

And, you know, someday then it'll be, you know, maybe a class or an office or a—

Exactly.

You know, a business as a whole.

And that's the way— well, yeah, I've worked in, you know, I've worked in factories and stuff like summer jobs, the different things over the years. And those are the things You're trying to do stuff together. Doesn't matter what you are doing, but it's— and it's one of those things that this would be why I would be a big advocate for sports, because sports is the best way to learn that for your life. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

It's like it— you, if you're a team and you're playing baseball, and you're having fun with it and you get along and you learn from that kind of thing, that should translate into the business world. And I think sometimes that doesn't because there are people that are focused on one thing or another and, you know, sometimes it just doesn't work that way. But to me, the most successful businesses are treated that way.

Yeah.

The ones that I've been involved with are treated that way. You're in this together and you have your role and You learn how to be a team and you learn things, if that makes sense.

Well, and, and I think you learn a lot about people's strengths and weaknesses and, and, you know, compassion and for lifting each other up. I think there's so much in sports in theory. I don't necessarily see all of that as much in sports today.

There's, there's still, there's still bad people in sports. It's not like it's— but it— there's things that, you know, you can, you can work through and you just have to be Lucky. And I feel like I've been lucky.

You haven't, you know, and I, I've, it's been fascinating watching everything that you've done. And I, I love how, and I had no idea that it started so young, that you had a vision for what you wanted to do and that you actually found a way to do it.

Yeah.

To do it.

And, and, and even still do it. Yeah. That's what I was gonna say. And, and still do it even as everything has changed.

Yeah.

And then what you've done has changed. What's your favorite sport though, out of what you've done?

Well, I mean, anybody that talks to me for very long, I'm doing something about baseball.

I was gonna say.

That's the— that's— I mean, and it's just, I have— my wife sometimes gets frustrated with me because I have a ton of insignificant knowledge in my head. And I've, I've ruined my child who has the same, same capability of that, that thing in your head where it's like, oh yeah, you talk about something 100 years ago and, and it's like, oh yeah. And, and he and I talk about it and my wife will sometimes—

And you're like, you know, players and stats. And I'm like, you can't remember what I told you to buy at the grocery store, but you can remember who played what game and how much.

Yeah.

Guilty. Uh, I'm very guilty.

But sport, again, like I said, sports is a passion thing. Do you find as much passion in the different kinds of sports? Because you've covered a little bit of everything.

Oh, I mean, as far as like what—

Between baseball and basketball?

Between how I feel about it?

No, what you see about it.

Or about what I see from other people?

What you see from the people.

Oh, yeah. I mean, people are passionate about their sports.

Yeah.

That, you know, if you're, if you're playing it for any length of time, you know, that's, you know, that's a, that's a big thing. And it doesn't, to me, it doesn't matter what sport it is. I understand what they're feeling.

Yeah.

You can understand how they feel. Now, do I understand how they get a golf ball to go off the tee and hit the green? No, mine would be in the trees. Okay, so I don't understand that, but I understand what they're feeling when they do what they want to do on a golf course.

And how they have to work.

And how you've practiced that and how that works. And I understand that. And I've always felt like being able to— and I think in one way, being a coach for so long, I understand what it's like to go up to talk to a coach who's lost a game.

Yeah.

Because I've been there. I've been on the side of, you know, I've been on a, you know, been interviewed by a TV person after we lost a game. You know, I, you understand how that feels. So you have to ask a question that, you know, my favorite question is, well, just give me some thoughts.

I like that.

And because, you know, my first lead-in question would not be, Well, why did you lose? Why did you, why did you call that play when you needed a touchdown? Why did you call that play? That, because that doesn't, that's not productive. All that does is make somebody mad. So, you know, and, and if you say something like, well, just give me some thoughts about, about tonight.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting.

And that's an open-ended question.

Yeah.

They can be mad. They could be happy with how their team played. They could be mad at an official. They could be, you know, and And you just— they just give you what, what they're thinking. And it's, it's an easy— and it's also a good way to get somebody to talk when they don't want to talk.

Yeah.

And I love that because that kind of circles around, goes back to our going into that situation is, you know, kind of thinking through how am I going to write the story?

Right. Yeah.

And, and going in there and knowing, you know, this could conceivably happen. I mean, how many times, you know, Dan watches And WNBA is the big thing now, competitive gameplay. And he'll go in there and he'll go, well, they're supposed to lose or they're supposed to win. I'm like, how do you know that? There's always those freak things that can happen.

Right.

But I can see that walking in there going, okay, what's the expected outcome? What happens? What can I think? How can I approach this? And I love having a line like that ready.

Yeah.

Not something obvious that you can start with to really just open the gate.

Well, and I've been— and probably the best place to learn this kind of stuff is at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Because inevitably, when you're in a press conference with a group of people, bring— they bring in a driver, there's always going to be that one guy that asks the dumbest question in the world. And, and you just sit there and go, okay, this press conference is ruined because you have made this person mad. They're mad enough that they lost.

Or wrecked a car.

Or wrecked a car or whatever. And, but then there's all— and the funny part is, is that, you know, it's coming because you've been in conferences with, with some of these guys over the years and it's like, Okay, what, what's he gonna ask this time that's gonna make him mad? You know, and, and not that that happens all the time, but there's some of those times where it's like, okay, this, this is just— so you've got to be careful sometimes how you ask questions of somebody that has just wrecked their car.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, what do you, you know, you know, what do you do? You know, and that's how you end up with people cussing on a NASCAR race. But on TV that they can't beep out or whatever. But I mean, it's—

Okay, so to wrap this up, for the average ordinary person who watches sports, loves sports, I really tuned into your comment about it being about the people and that these stories are people, always people stories. But what would you tell somebody if they really wanted to learn more about how to communicate about their sports, talk about their sport. They don't necessarily have to be a writer, but I think sharing, especially for your family or your kids or your community, sharing what that is for you. And you talk about now you're at IUE.

Right.

How can people go about learning how to communicate better in general about that?

I guess, well, first of all, be honest.

And notice that, be honest.

And, and understanding. And also, sometimes it's better to not say something than it is to actually say something. Because sometimes if you are thinking about saying something or asking a question of some kind, And you, you're just basically asking the question to get an answer. You just need to find a different way to ask the question. Because to me, asking a question to get an answer that you know what they're going to say is antagonizing that person.

I was just going to say, yeah.

Because it, it just is something. And when you've antagonized somebody, they're not going to answer you. In certain ways. I remember one time I am interviewing— well, it was a high school basketball game and the team that I was covering lost. And I'm waiting with 2, 3 other reporters from the area and we're over in Dayton. And there's people, you know, there's a couple guys, the other guys start asking questions and everything. And I'm just like, oh man, this is just not going well. And I didn't really ask any questions.

And the assistant coach for the team kind of tapped me on the shoulder as we were wrapping up.

Yeah.

And he motioned for me to come see him. So I went to see him. He says, he's going to talk to you in the locker room.

Because you knew—

The coach went in the locker room and he and I talked for a few minutes and I got quotes that those other guys did not get because they were asking the questions that basically made him mad.

Yeah.

You know, and, and, and it was from the perspective of they have been doing that all year.

Yeah.

And I didn't do that, apparently.

Yeah.

You know, I— and, you know, and, you know, it was one of those things that he said, hey, he'll talk to you. Just get those guys out of the way and he'll talk to you. And I ended up, you know, getting quite a few minutes with him and talking to him and everything. And, you know, it just was, it was one of those things that you just have to learn how to do sometimes. I had a high school football coach that hated talking on the field.

Hated it.

Yeah.

And so, but he also took forever in the locker room. And so we had a conversation one time. He says, okay, this is what we'll do. You and I, after the games are over, we'll walk to the locker room together. And you can ask me anything you want as we're walking. And then we'll both be done. And I can go in and be with my team.

Yeah.

And it actually, that was, as strange as that sounds, it actually was really good because he talked to me.

Yeah.

You know, he would talk to me. more than when I was waiting for him sometimes afterwards. So it was like, but that was like, was that was like in our plan?

Yeah.

And, and I guess part of me is what to kind of get back to where I'm gonna maybe answer the question now. Um, it just seems like you have to be aware of the other person when you're asking questions and when you're doing things, and you need to really be aware of I mean, in life in general, of what's going on with other people in that sense. I mean, you don't always know. Sometimes there's stuff that you don't know what's going on.

Yeah.

And it's just something that you have to deal with, I guess, and be sensitive to whether you're just talking with a friend or you're talking as part of your job as a reporter or what have you. But, you know, because I've always been under the impression that if you let start, if you get people to start talking like you've done, they will tell you a lot.

Yeah.

And it just, it works better that way. And so that, yeah.

Well, and I wouldn't even—

I hope that's exactly— I hope that kind of made it.

Well, it's funny because I wasn't exactly sure where I was going, even going with this question, but what I was hoping to get out of it is the base of understanding of communication, because I think that's a lot of what is missing in this world right now. And how do you, you know, it's easy to want to have a conversation about something you're passionate about, about sports, but like we mentioned before, you could take that into any arena. So what kind of things do you need to be aware of when you're communicating with somebody? And I love that you use the example of maybe the best time to talk to them isn't on the field.

Right.

Yeah. Maybe you need to be the one that hangs around after it's all over and he's gotten everything out.

Yeah.

So be aware of what— and that's the same thing with your spouse or with your children or with your boss. It's the same lesson that you need to learn. And then the other thing, don't attack.

Right. Yeah.

Because you're automatically going to put somebody on edge and you're not going to get the best Right. Communication out of them.

And if you're a reporter, there are times when just saying hello to somebody might upset them is an attack because they know what you are asking. And I've been in situations where I've, you know, I've had a couple of different situations over the years where I'm sitting with a high school principal and somebody from our news department had been calling him about doing something. And, and I just kind of flat out looked at him and said, I know this, this involves sports. So do you want me to write this story? Or do you want somebody from our news department to write?

Oh, yeah. Perspective.

And he looked at me and he said, I want you to write the story. Let's talk. Yeah. So there's like, you know, and it's like, Because the news person didn't want to write it. She was going to, but she did not want to. Yeah. And so it was like, okay. And I went up there to the— I went to the school and said, this is, you know, what's going on.

I need to be the one to write this story.

Do you want me to write this or do you want somebody else to write this? You know, because it's, it's not going to be good no matter what happens.

Yeah.

You know, it's just this because of something that happened.

Yeah.

and was going to happen.

And, you know, and then it needed to be said, but who would you rush that?

Who would you respect? Who do you want? Who's— do you want somebody that has no idea about what they're going to do write about it, or would you have somebody that at least knows the people that, yeah, we're dealing with?

Yeah.

And that's kind of, you know, so our life lessons. Yeah.

I, I don't know. I'll sum it up.

The, the thing is, I, I did the story and it worked out, you know. But it was, you know, but it was there, you know. I mean, it was truthful. It's kind of— somebody, somebody's not happy. They're not communicating well.

No, they're not communicating well. I think we need to jump in. Thank you. This was a total spur-of-the-moment thing. I reached out and said, you know, come, come hang out with me for a while, and I'm so glad you did.

Um, I love what you do. I, I love—

and, you know, I've, I've always loved sports, but I've always been on the sidelines, you know, Most of what I did was a long, long time ago. But I just always loved your vision with how you communicated what was going on. And you mentioned fair and balanced. And I think that's what always attracted to me with what you were writing, is it always was about the people.

Yeah.

And I'm just such a huge lover of stories. And sports is your outlet. There's 100 million different ways that you could take this. Oh, yeah. No question. I want everyone to just really think about what's important in their lives, and those are what they need to work on their communication skills to bolster. Because I think until we can sit down and talk to each other as rational human beings that really care for each other, we're never going to make any progress in this world.

Yeah, true.

So thank you.

No problem.

It was wonderful.

Yep. Great to be here.

I love conversations like this because we started with family history, moved through cemeteries and old newspapers, wandered into basketball, auto racing, talked about mentors, careers, technology, AI, and trust. And somehow it all fits together. Underneath almost every story that Don told was a person, a grandmother who served as a midwife, A guidance counselor who made an introduction, a sportswriter who took a 12-year-old boy to a basketball game and allowed him to see what was possible. Coaches, players, writers, readers, family members, people. But there was also something else running through Don's story too, a dream. Long before he knew how he would get there, Don knew that he wanted to become a basketball coach and a sportswriter. And instead of waiting for someone to hand him a complete plan, he kept moving towards the things that interested him. He managed teams.

He practiced writing. He learned from the people who were already doing the work. He took opportunities that may not have looked important at the time. And then one day, those pieces became a life. And that's how dreams often work. We rarely receive an entire map. We might be given an interest, a person, an opportunity, just the next step. And then we have to decide whether we are willing to follow it.

Which brings me to today's epic message. You do not have to know how the dream will happen before you begin moving towards it. We often think that clarity means knowing every step. It doesn't. Sometimes clarity is simply knowing what matters to you, what fascinates you, what kind of work makes you feel alive, what you want to learn, who you want to become. The path may not appear all at once. It may arrive as a teacher who sees something inside of you, a mentor who lets you watch, a small assignment, a volunteer role, a job that seems only loosely connected to the dream. Maybe an opportunity that does not look impressive enough to even matter.

But dreams are often built through these ordinary moments that only become significant when we look backwards. You may not even know how all the pieces will connect. You may not know which door will open next. You may not even recognize that the step that you are taking today. belongs to the dream that you have carried for years. Take it anyway. Follow the curiosity. Learn what you can.

Pay attention to the people that are placed in your path and keep moving in the direction of the life that you want. The dream may show you the destination long before it reveals the route. This week's epic challenge is this: choose one dream that you've been postponing because you don't know how to make it happen. Do not try to build the entire plan. Instead, ask yourself, what is one thing that I could do today to move closer to that dream? Maybe you could talk to someone who's already, already doing that work. You could read a book, take a class, visit a place, practice a skill, volunteer, send an email or make a phone call, or just sit down and spend 30 minutes researching what your first step might be. Then do that one thing. And remember, you don't need the entire map to begin.

You only need enough courage to take that first step. One of the things that I love most about this conversation with Don is that there was not one giant dramatic moment when his life suddenly came together. There were dozens of smaller ones. A childhood interest, a guidance counselor who paid attention, a mentor who took him to a game, a young boy practicing stories that no one else would ever read. Years spent managing teams, coaching, scouting, writing, and learning. Opportunities that probably did not look like destiny when they appeared, and a willingness to keep moving towards something that he cared about Long before he even knew exactly how that would unfold. That is worth remembering. Sometimes we want to wait to pursue the dream until we can explain exactly how it's going to happen.

We want a timeline, resources, contacts, credentials. We want a guarantee. But Don did not have all of that when he decided that he wanted to become a coach and sportswriter. He had an interest. He had a dream, and eventually he found the people who could help him understand that next step. Your dream will not arrive with instructions. It may not. It may begin as nothing more than a curiosity that you cannot shake, an idea that you keep going back to, a place that you want to see, work that you feel drawn towards, or a quiet sense that There is something more that you are supposed to be doing.

Pay attention to it. You do not have to know exactly where that road is going to lead you before you begin walking. As you go, remember what Don understood about every story that he covered. It's always about the people. The people who teach us, the people who encourage us, The people whose stories that we are trusted to tell, the people that we serve with the work that we eventually do. Follow the curiosity, learn from the people in your path, care enough to get their stories right, and keep taking the next step towards the dreams that matter to you. And if you would like help finding what that next step might be, email me at [email protected]. Follow me on my Facebook page and make a post telling me what your next dream looks like, and I'll see you next time.

And remember, it is all about the story.

Thanks for hanging out with me.

If today's episode struck a chord with you and you want to spread the love, please share using the hashtag #EpicLivingPodcast and leave a comment on my Facebook Head over to my website, epiclivingwithjean.com, to learn more about what it means to live epic. And while you're there, download a free guide, 7 Ways to Start Living Epic, and it will help you take your first step. If you wanna learn more about my Dream Manager program or just wanna chat about what epic might look like in your life, reach out to me and let's set up a call. See you next time. I hope you go out and live epic today and every day. And remember, it's all about the story.