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Lorne Lanning is an American game designer, director, writer and voice actor. He is also co-founder of Oddworld Inhabitants. He is best known for creating the Oddworld series including Abe's Abe's Exoddus, Munch's Oddysee, Stranger's Wrath and Oddworld: New 'n' Tasty! He is currently working on Oddworld: Soulstorm. In part 2 of our 2 part interview, Lorne discusses further into Kickstarter campaigns and crowdfunding. Visit www.playmakerspodcast.com to get access to the full blog post for this episode and much more!
Welcome to PlayMakers, I'm your host Jordan Blackman,
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:and you're listening to episode 5.
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:So this is part 2 of my interview
with Lorne Lanning, the game industry
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:treasure, the I kind of want to call
him an icon, as he's either an icon or
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:an iconoclastic, I can't really tell.
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:In any case, the great Lorne Lanning,
this is part 2 of my interview with
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:him, and on every interview I go
deep with the game industry leader
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:to bring you information that helps
you stay at the top of your game.
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:You're listening to PlayMakers.
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:Okay.
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:So this is part two of my interview
with Lorne Lanning, creator of Oddworld.
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:And if you didn't hear part one, I
definitely want you to check that out
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:because it's going to give you a lot
more context about Lorne and where
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:he's coming from and what his message
is and what his art is all about.
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:And I think all that stuff is key
to understanding what's coming up in
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:part two, and that is how someone can.
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:get started today and get
funding for their content,
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:for their idea, for their IP.
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:We also have a pretty wide
ranging discussion about the game
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:industry, Nintendo, Apple, Google,
everything that's been happening.
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:And we get the benefit of Lauren's
incredible experience at the cutting
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:edge of the game industry for decades.
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:Something to keep in mind is that we
recorded in:
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:Switch and you'll see as you listen to
the interview why the timing is relevant.
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:We talk about the state of Nintendo
and and obviously that has changed
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:a bit over the past several months.
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:If you want to make your game and
you want to make art and you want to
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:succeed at it, you know, he talked about
in the first part of the interview,
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:he talked about trying to build two
bridges at the same time, a business
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:bridge where he's able to sustain his
business and be successful in that way.
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:And a creative bridge where
he gets to have his message
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:and share it with an audience.
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:And that he was trying to
build both bridges at once.
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:If you want to build both
bridges at once, you cannot miss
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:either part of this interview.
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:Here's part two with Lauren Lanning.
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:I am contacted regularly by aspiring
designers, even proven designers,
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:seasoned designers that want to keep
on getting their ideas that they feel
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:passionate about into the games that
they create, and they're upset that
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:they can't find anyone to support them.
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:And occasionally it does happen.
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:And I'm thinking of the Inuit game.
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:That was released a couple of years ago,
never alone, never alone, that publisher,
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:actually, uh, which is a new model,
basically trying to do the things that
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:we're talking about, like shine light
on the plights of indigenous cultures,
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:shine light on things that wouldn't
normally be, uh, considered, uh, viable,
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:you know, highly marketable game content.
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:It's not like we have an audience
saying, ah, next year, you know,
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:I'm going to spend 50 on the Inuit.
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:And any Inuit game that's made, you
know, but we do know that for racing, for
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:shooting, for puzzles, we know X amount
of dollars is going to be spent next year.
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:So when someone wants to come out of the
box and say, we're making a game about
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:an Inuit life, you know, and try and shed
more life and compassion on the Inuit.
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:Plight, you know, it's not one that
necessarily VCs are gonna step out and go.
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:Oh, yeah We think that's gonna be a huge
money returner But it is their mission
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:and they're trying to do more and more
games like that because they recognize
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:that And these are seasoned guys, you
know, they came out of Activision, etc.
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:But they recognize that at the
publishing level That the world
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:is ripe for this kind of content.
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:Games are perfect for
this kind of content.
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:But just because they can't
compete with a shooter doesn't
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:mean they shouldn't be made.
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:So how does that get figured out?
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:And really, digital distribution
allowed those things to start to happen.
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:That's what I'm really interested
to hear your thoughts on.
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:For those designers, whether they're
They're seasoned or, or relatively fresh
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:who do want to do that, you know, who
don't necessarily have preexisting IP or
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:following for what they've done so far.
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:How do they kind of have their voice
heard or develop their voice, you know,
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:because also if we're not developing
people's voices, you know, it takes
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:time, you know, took them time to figure
out what a director was in film and how
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:to develop direct directorial talent.
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:And it's funny because right in the
beginning we saw pretty massive.
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:Propaganda with film, right?
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:So we, uh, you know,
in different ways, uh.
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:And we had the studio system.
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:Then you got the studio system, you
know, its own, own, uh, agendas.
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:But you know, Hollywood's kind of
fascinating because it's a little
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:bit sensitive subject to talk
about, but let's touch on it, is
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:we were dealing with immigrants.
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:I think we've been doing pretty
good on the sensitive subjects part.
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:Okay.
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:But, uh, you know, the early, I got a
great book on the, on the wall, which
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:is called How the Jews Built Hollywood.
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:By the way, I'm going to put
all the books and artists you've
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:mentioned up on the website.
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:Yeah.
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:I think it's called, uh, How
the Jews Built Hollywood.
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:And it's a fascinating book because you
were dealing with, at the time, really
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:a minority that even though these,
these people were making money and
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:successful in business, uh, they still
couldn't get into, uh, just saying,
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:you know, my wife is Jewish, right?
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:So I'm kind of, I'm not, I'm not
Jewish, but I understand a lot of them.
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:And so they weren't allowed in the country
clubs, they, they were treated like, you
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:know, second class citizens in social
scenes in Los Angeles, stuff like this.
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:And what they started to do was shape
motion pictures, and let's take, like,
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:It's a Wonderful Life as a great example.
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:They started to shape stories
and want more stories that
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:were identifying a country.
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:They'd like to see, so they were kind
of making stories of a higher ideal of
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:people getting along, being more tolerant,
being noble, being honest, you know, these
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:different things in a, in a, in a more
fairness way of how they wanted to be
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:treated and that reflected in the content.
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:They made in green light, you know,
now granted it was all business and
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:everyone's trying to make money.
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:But in the beginning, there's some great
stories about this stuff, you know, Meyer
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:and Goldwyn, what they went through,
what they cared about, what their own
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:personal tragedies and successes were,
and, and the types of stories that they
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:would be more interested in backing.
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:So it's really sort of inspiring
stuff on the early foundational
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:days of building the empire.
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:I think it was called an empire
of their own, sorry, an empire
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:of the title of the book.
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:I don't believe that's
the title of the book.
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:Yes.
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:And, uh, it's kind of fascinating because
again, you're dealing with largely at that
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:time, a discriminated class that found
a vehicle to portray what they wanted to
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:see as a better fairness in the world.
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:And it actually, you know, who's to
say how much impact Hollywood has had
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:on the way we behave as a, as a group.
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:culture today.
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:And it's as fucked up as the
United States is, and it's
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:severely dysfunctional right now.
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:It is still the place where
people flee to, right?
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:Even, you know, it's
kind of like Rome, right?
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:Like if you were on the outskirts
of Rome, you were in real trouble.
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:But if you went into the heart of
it, it was a lot more civilized, you
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:know, like depending on your status.
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:But the United States
is kind of like that.
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:Like I meet Uber drivers from
Afghanistan all the time, from Iraq.
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:Oh yeah.
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:This is still the dream
of the world to come here.
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:Yeah, you know, and so the United
States is like, it's so many things
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:you can't summarize it as any one
thing because it's really, you know,
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:it's a nation built by immigrants.
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:Right.
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:And that hasn't stopped.
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:So my point is an empire of their
own was a great example of how an
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:industry was built by people that
were being discriminated against.
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:And the media that they
generated was not hateful, right?
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:It wasn't like, It, you know, it
wasn't trying to stimulate unrest.
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:It was trying to stimulate a higher
goal, a higher, higher tolerance.
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:Personally, I find that, you know, really
fascinating and as a great example,
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:you know, that with it, when we look
back, a lot of people, particularly
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:old people go, what happened to the
good Hollywood movies, the good, you
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:know, the meat and potatoes movies
that, you know, it's a wonderful
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:life that you watched at Christmas
time and you just loved, you know.
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:But, you know, the bad
ones all get forgotten.
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:So it seems like there were just good
ones, but there are a lot of bad ones.
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:And, and, you know, I don't, I'm not
gonna be able to, uh, name drop this too
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:well, but I think, I feel like there is
still a tradition, especially in TV of
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:kind of getting out different kinds of
people and making people comfortable a
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:little bit ahead of mainstream society.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:The problem with TV.
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:is that TV is dictated by the sponsors.
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:And so, it is driven by advertising.
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:The reason TV is free to the home
is it's driven by advertising sales.
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:And if the advertisers have
any problem with the content
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:you're displaying, you're out.
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:That's it.
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:You're out.
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:So TV is only gonna get so
informative on the news, which
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:is pretty much a joke today.
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:It's absolutely a joke.
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:I stopped watching it 30 years ago
and I got a lot smarter because of it.
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:But I really rejected
newspapers, television news.
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:It's just, you know, it's like when I
learned what was going on, I had no room
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:to hear it, to fill my mind with bullshit.
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:What do you pay attention to?
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:I largely pay attention to whistleblowers,
people being prosecuted by governments,
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:uh, people being represented
by human rights organizations.
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:Whistleblowers are very interesting,
and alternative press, you know.
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:So WikiLeaks?
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:No, I think Wiki is, uh, I
think, Wiki is upholding a lot
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:of the, uh, status quo stuff.
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:I mean, really, if you know what's
going on in this world, I'm not going
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:to say what's going on in this world,
but if you have a better idea and
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:know for a fact what's going on, you
realize WikiLeaks is not, if they, if
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:they claim to be what they really are,
they'd be revealing a lot more stuff.
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:So the best we can do is Hillary sent
some emails that said, uh, so and so
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:running another country is a jerk.
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:I mean, please.
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:Please, it's like, it's like, I
don't believe in the authentic
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:ness of WikiLeaks, personally.
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:Um, because the, the crimes are so much
greater than anything they've touched on.
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:It's just kind of, you
gotta be kidding me.
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:Um, I also, with, uh, Snowden, Why did
he give the information to journalists
190
:to piecemeal to us over time?
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:I don't trust that either.
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:I think Snowden's legitimate, but why
didn't he just open source it all?
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:Why don't you let us go through it?
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:Why don't we let a million
people pick through the results?
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:What happens when we do
that with anything else?
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:When we release a scientific
problem to the, to crowdsourcing,
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:we solve it a lot faster.
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:Any, any algorithm?
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:He took an episodic model
to his, yeah, his league.
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:So anyway, you know, I don't want
to trash these outlets, but quite
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:frankly, I don't believe them as the
holy grails that they're outed to be.
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:However, Snowden revealed, you know,
super important stuff to us and I
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:think, uh, I just don't trust what's
coming out of Wikileaks, I think.
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:You know, there's, I know for a
fact, there's many more dangerous
205
:things that we should be aware of.
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:None of it has graced the pages of
WikiLeaks, so come on, who you kidding?
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:Do you think, this is, this is kind of
going back to some game stuff, but do
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:you think that any talented team could
craft a successful kind of Kickstarter?
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:Do you need at this point celebrity or IP?
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:I think you need visibility.
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:So, I was having a talk.
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:Just recently with someone who's
been very successful multiple
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:times with the Kickstarter stuff.
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:And he said, look, you have well known
designer proven, well known IP, you got
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:the winning chemistry for Kickstarter.
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:Outside of that, you have the most
successful ever on Kickstarter,
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:which is Exploding Kittens.
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:That Alon Lee was not necessarily a
household name for game designers, right?
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:I mean, I was a fan of his.
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:I knew the things he did.
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:I think he's brilliant.
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:But he wasn't necessarily like, Oh,
Elon Lee is doing Kickstarters, not
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:drawing millions of people, right?
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:But the cartoonist that he
had associated with did have
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:a million Facebook followers.
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:So there was a cartoonist who
did the exploding kit and stuff.
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:And because of that, Mixed with
Ilan Lee's brilliant approach to
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:ARG campaigning, Boom, they get
over 10 million on a Kickstarter.
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:So, yeah, so, if you had something like,
I guess we could say that was a celebrity
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:cartoonist, Being used for off case
example, you know, an out of spectrum
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:example, deck playing cards, For, um,
You know, a magic like game, right?
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:Card game.
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:That was way out of the box,
but you had the, the science.
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:So you had a guy who knew how to implement
science possibly better than anyone
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:else in the world, Elon Lee, or Jordan
Weisman would be in the same class, right?
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:They worked together.
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:You, you, I'm sure you know
their history together.
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:And then you had a heavily
followed cartoonist.
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:Who, together, the cartoonist was able to
draw the eyeballs to the campaign, because
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:if you were following him, he was able
to post on his Facebook, Hey, I'm doing
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:this thing, if you want to get involved.
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:And everyone's like, Ah, I
love your shit, you know?
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:That draws it over, and then,
really, how they executed on it,
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:making every tier an unlockable.
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:Like they did a number of things.
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:I talked to Alon after that success
and I asked him like, Hey man,
247
:can you tell me what you did?
248
:You know, and, uh, I did
the same with Chris Roberts.
249
:I did the same with Brian
Fargo and Tim Schafer.
250
:Like, you know, I'm out
there trying to learn, right?
251
:There's a case where I guess you had
a celebrity, it's the most successful
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:Kickstarter of all time, and the celebrity
came not from the area you were trying to
253
:sell, although it would include the art.
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:In the package, uh, and
they raised over 10 million.
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:So the combination of celebrity and
science, I think enabled that to
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:happen, but really because of social
following, not because of pop so
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:much, you know, it wasn't like a Kim
Kardashian celebrity type, right?
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:Which I'm sure if she did a
Kickstarter, you know, it would
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:just be the most enormous ever for
the latest, you know, hair curl, I
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:don't know, whatever it would be.
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:Exploding kittens could
also work, actually.
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:There you go.
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:Hollywood explodes kittens.
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:Yeah.
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:I think it's a really tough sell.
266
:And I think it's gotten harder
because of the failures.
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:And I think the failures can be
attributed to, you had a way.
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:for people to basically
get money on a hope.
269
:I think they were always going
for less money than they needed,
270
:which is a really dangerous thing.
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:You know, like we'd say, well,
you know, if we're gonna make
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:a new game, we need 5 million.
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:Well, who's going to do a
Kickstarter and ask for 5 million?
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:You're not going to get it, but ask for
500, 000 and maybe you'll get 5 million.
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:It's like, it's just crazy.
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:They always say to ask for a really
small amount because people don't want
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:to be part of a Kickstarter that fails.
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:People only want to participate
in Kickstarter once they already
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:see it's going to succeed.
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:So it's a weird effect, right?
281
:You can't, and they're all going,
Oh, I want to back Geist and Uranus.
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:It's like, eh, kinda you do, but
really you need to be led to it.
283
:You know, who are we kidding?
284
:So I think all that's a bit of a Uh,
really tricky navigation for the person
285
:doing the kickstarter, the group doing
the kickstarter, uh, but you have to
286
:have some avenue of support that's
going to bring the eyeballs because it's
287
:certainly not just going to come because
everyone's scouring every kickstarter
288
:that's available and finds yours
interesting, you have to be highlighted,
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:you know this better than anyone with
your experience in free to play games,
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:mobile games, Things like that, right?
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:You gotta be, if you're going to have
an app that's going to go anywhere on
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:an iPhone or Android, you have to be
featured by the Apple store, or you
293
:have to have some enormous outlet of
visibility somewhere else that you're
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:drawing them to the Apple store.
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:But without the acquisition,
without the acquisition.
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:side handled, you're,
you're in deep water.
297
:Exactly.
298
:And you know, and I'm sure you actually
understand that science much better
299
:than I do, because you've had a lot more
experience and successes in those areas,
300
:where basically, you know, you're dealing
with like free product, where you have to
301
:have 100 million people playing so you can
monetize, you know, less than 20 fraction.
302
:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
303
:Which is, you know, a very different
philosophy that we've been, that
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:I've been, uh, uh, executing on.
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:Um, just, you know, I'm still a little
bit stuck in the old world, quite
306
:frankly, in terms of the type of content,
the story games, uh, premium price
307
:product is so different categories.
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:My, my admittance there is that I
don't really, I don't understand
309
:the sciences of free to play as
well as people who executed on them.
310
:You know, one way to think
about it though, is that it
311
:is really the same thing.
312
:Let's say you're marketing a
giant blockbuster film, you
313
:have all that marketing content.
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:That's your free content.
315
:All those trailers that you're showing
people, all those ads, everything you're
316
:doing to motivate people to make that
final move of going to see the movie.
317
:That's the monetization step, but
you've given them all this free
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:content interviews on there on TV
shows, commercials, the billboards,
319
:all that stuff is generating.
320
:It's just a, it's just sort of one
way to kind of conceptualize it.
321
:To that point, let's say when designers
have asked me or small teams that want
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:to, uh, do Kickstarters and they say,
or even get publishing deals, they're
323
:going, well, you know, our game and we
believe in it and it's an idea right now.
324
:We might have a little bit of a prototype,
but, uh, this is how we want to do it.
325
:This is what we want to make happen.
326
:And what I'll say is, well, what.
327
:Is really special about it, right?
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:And so let's say it's animation.
329
:Maybe let's say that's really where
your guy's skill set comes from.
330
:You do something
extraordinary with animation.
331
:And in some degrees I'd put
like Ori in the Blind Forest.
332
:It's like an animation art.
333
:Spectacle of you know it's just a
wonderful really wonderful that's where
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:the strength was and say so if it's
that then where can you make before you
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:start a crowdfunding where can you make
some small small examples little tiny as
336
:possible examples let's think you know
you to like attention span and maybe it's
337
:animation that your excellence is pretty
unique and if we could see it in the
338
:game maybe stimulate people and I think
right away to the first imagery I saw
339
:of a cuphead right I don't know cuphead.
340
:It's the Fleshinger type animation from
like the, you know, early 20th century.
341
:Oh, like Popeye style.
342
:Yeah.
343
:So it's like original Popeye style.
344
:And as soon as you saw it,
you're like, holy shit.
345
:This is like 1920s
animation in a video game.
346
:It perfectly works.
347
:Like, oh my God, they, they could
create a whole genre out of this if
348
:they wanted to run with it and they
should, I don't think it's released yet.
349
:And it's been working on it for a
while, but it's just really cool.
350
:Right?
351
:The second you see that.
352
:You could get animation fans all over
the world interested in your game.
353
:When I first saw the little Flash
version of Limbo, you know, it was
354
:like five years before it came out.
355
:I was waiting.
356
:I was just waiting with my money.
357
:And what's the new one now?
358
:Inside, I think?
359
:Yeah, inside.
360
:Yeah, and people are
just loving it, right?
361
:Voting it, you know, best
game on Xbox, stuff like this.
362
:But the point being is, like,
Let's say that little clip that you
363
:saw of Limbo got you interested.
364
:And if it said, follow us here,
we'll be doing a Kickstarter soon.
365
:We'll tell you when it is, you
know, maybe say, sign me up.
366
:I want to know more about this, right?
367
:There's some no man's sky.
368
:I did the same thing.
369
:No man's sky.
370
:Yeah.
371
:Let's take Cuphead as the example,
because five seconds of footage.
372
:Could tell you the promise of the game
because you get it when you see it, right?
373
:There's something extraordinary and
extraordinarily different, uh, even
374
:though we're familiar with everything
it's doing But we just haven't seen
375
:that combination of it done in the game
before so when we see that that could
376
:have tried Let's say that's a little
clip and you're trying to make cupheads.
377
:Let's use cupheads as the game You
want to make as an example, right?
378
:It hasn't been done yet And you're a
group and what I'm telling them is I
379
:say create your five second You Test
you 15 second test something that shows
380
:you different in your special and then
don't put it on kickstarter go into
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:the animation communities that are
already sharing this stuff go into.
382
:Animator dot com you know the animation
collective go go into these different
383
:places say hey guys we saw this working
on this thing we hope to get this started
384
:as a real project next year please follow
us please like us and if it's cool.
385
:The animators are going to
support you if it's cool.
386
:Right?
387
:If it's subpar, you're not going to
get your friends might support you,
388
:but strangers aren't going to, but
if it's cool and quality, you're
389
:going to start getting some traction.
390
:So somewhere, even if you don't have
celebrity, even if you don't have
391
:brand, you have to find an end point
to get an audience to support you.
392
:And even if you're crowdfunding,
the end point is not going
393
:to be Kickstarter itself.
394
:You've got to get that
started somewhere else.
395
:So let's say it's an animation community.
396
:Let's say you're going to do a game,
but it's all going to be in sand art.
397
:Or finger painting or something, you
know, then, then put it into the hobbyist
398
:community that's into finger pointing,
get thousands of followers to support
399
:it, then do your Kickstarter, you know,
so you have some traction coming in
400
:that's coming from a segment of the
audience, which would be interesting
401
:it that's giving you a support.
402
:You're not just cold stepping
right into it X amount of time till
403
:it's over and hopefully you win.
404
:That's great advice.
405
:Well, I try.
406
:You know, sometimes.
407
:We'll wait for the
Sandark game to come out.
408
:Yeah, the finger painting game.
409
:Which is kind of perfect for, you know,
touchpads when you think about it.
410
:True.
411
:So, a couple quick questions.
412
:You've been super generous
with your time, Lawrence.
413
:So, thank you very much.
414
:My pleasure with the technology
that's coming down and starting
415
:to get mainstream acceptance.
416
:Finally, you know, we're seeing AR
with Pokemon go and even geolocation.
417
:These are, these are things people have
been talking about going mainstream for,
418
:for six years or something like that.
419
:And VR now finally, you know, in the
consumer's hands, what's exciting to you.
420
:What do you think are the changes
coming in the next five to 10 years?
421
:You know, it's all kind of
exciting in different ways, right?
422
:Like, when we really get focused, we
can go, Oh, that's, you know, there's
423
:different slices here that we can get
excited about different components.
424
:So, across the board, you know,
I'm pretty excited about VR.
425
:I'm pretty excited about AR, which
I think is going to be bigger.
426
:But it's going to be harder, a lot
bigger because composite reality is
427
:a million times more valuable than
teleported reality, meaning alternative,
428
:uh, you know what I'm talking about,
like being able to walk and do email
429
:with my cell phone and tweet is a lot
more valuable than having to be at
430
:the desktop, adding value to reality.
431
:It's more valuable than just
some total fantasy reality.
432
:Yes.
433
:And, uh, or one where I have
to be stationary based, which
434
:is basically VR, because VR is
not safe to move around, right?
435
:And it's, it's mostly solitary
for now, whereas AR seems much
436
:easier to kind of make shared.
437
:Right.
438
:Easier to make shared and harder
to deploy and have a basic platform
439
:for, to do, where you could just
walk down the street and see it.
440
:Yeah.
441
:That's the endgame is Minority Report.
442
:You know, you're walking
around, you got contact lenses.
443
:If I want to see where there's
pizzas on sale as I walk down the
444
:street, each one will just beep.
445
:You know, I'll see that pizza place,
but then I'll see it's 3D, computer
446
:graphic, holographic, uh, uh, chubby
Italian guy tossing pizza dough.
447
:Flipping it into outer space and
they're coming back down and landing
448
:on his hands and, and all that is
happening in virtual space, but right
449
:on top of the pizza store, right?
450
:Like, that shit's coming.
451
:Yeah.
452
:Where, just imagine, uh, I put on
my glasses and now I see all the
453
:neon, I take it off and now I don't.
454
:That's what's coming.
455
:I mean, Pokemon Go is pretty close.
456
:You've got the training camps and
now stores are like putting up signs.
457
:To let people know, they give
you a discount if you put a lure.
458
:So if you're willing to like bring Pokemon
to their store, they will give you a deal.
459
:You know, it's amazing how sometimes
Nintendo, right, with all the
460
:wrong decisions they've been
making and wrong customer practices
461
:that they've been employing.
462
:Which is basically self evident in
what's been happening with the brand.
463
:Um, that they can still come up with
something as innovative as Pokemon Go.
464
:But if it were a new thing, I think
it would have fell flat on its face
465
:if it weren't based on the Pokemon.
466
:I mean, and there have been
other pretty similar products.
467
:I think this is actually based
on something called Ingress,
468
:which is like a Google.
469
:Yeah, I'm not sure.
470
:Yeah.
471
:But nobody was using
it, so what's the fun?
472
:Yeah, you know, it's kind of like, uh, I
don't think Henry Ford was the first one
473
:to invent the car, but I think he's the
first one to really make it happen, right?
474
:It's kind of the same thing.
475
:It's like, well, uh, you got
to have a number of components
476
:really working for you to get the
momentum to hit a successful launch.
477
:Nintendo certainly got the muscle.
478
:What they've been demonstrating lately
is they lack the savvy to understand what
479
:they should do to keep the momentum going.
480
:Well, to just keep developers interest
in their platforms, I mean, because
481
:for the most part, developers have
lost interest in their platforms, which
482
:says a lot about where they're headed.
483
:And this isn't on their platform.
484
:Yeah, which is smart, right?
485
:Because it is smart.
486
:So who knows where they're going.
487
:I hope they pull it out.
488
:Uh, having released a product on their
platform recently, I have little hope
489
:that they will pull it out because
it's a philosophical question.
490
:Problem?
491
:I mean, uh, just in, in two seconds.
492
:So, we released a product.
493
:It's an 80, 80 plus Metacritic
for Is this Stranger's Wrap?
494
:No, this is, uh, New and Tasty.
495
:New and Tasty, okay.
496
:So we bring it to Nintendo.
497
:So we bring an 80 plus product that
took us a lot of pain to get onto
498
:their platform, but they won't give
you any real promotions if you weren't
499
:day and date with the other platforms.
500
:So, they don't even understand.
501
:How their wonky ass hardware system
has created almost an impossibility
502
:for anyone to want to invest all the
extra cash to make the title that
503
:they're trying to make run on PS4, Xbox
One, PC be compatible with this thing,
504
:their, their box, which is, which is
just this, like, what are you thinking?
505
:And yet, if you don't do, if you don't
have day and date release, they're not
506
:going to, they're Promote you on their
store, even though there's no products
507
:for their audience So their gamers are
in a total drought of quality content
508
:But Nintendo's marketing practices will
not help you promote better Product
509
:offering to their audience because
of some silly policy, which basically
510
:brings us back to they're making worse
:
511
:I mean, it's like, if you see that,
Okay, so let me just ask this question.
512
:So your customers have
not enough games to play.
513
:Yes or no?
514
:Well, yeah.
515
:Okay.
516
:And so when someone brings games, invests
money to bring games to your platform, are
517
:you gonna let your customers know about
them because they don't have enough games?
518
:Okay.
519
:We're writing you off because you
don't get what is making web 3.
520
:0 work.
521
:Why Sony won this round for having
the insight to understand how to
522
:support self publishing, which I
think was really driven by what the
523
:mobile companies had already done.
524
:Apple starting off with free dev,
you know, basically free APIs, right?
525
:Free dev kits and free apps, free apps.
526
:So you're going to stay in this old
world where you want to set this high
527
:bar that What's happening is, well,
your last two systems, basically, you
528
:don't have third party support for.
529
:Why did that happen?
530
:Now you have people, customers, that
have bought your product, and when
531
:a new game comes out that's actually
good, and people actually took the time
532
:to make it run well on your console,
you're not going to do anything to
533
:promote that product into your audience.
534
:And the answer is,
that's right, we're not.
535
:And you go, okay, now, why should
anyone support your products now?
536
:As developers, and that's
the big lingering question,
537
:and the answer is, no one is.
538
:I have this theory, I don't
really have a name for it, let's
539
:call it the circle of consoles.
540
:And, and the idea is that all the major
platform holders go through a cycle where
541
:they're popular, they're easy to develop
for, so they become popular, then they
542
:have to deal with a glut of content,
so they close down the, um, pipeline.
543
:This is not so much true in the case
of the Apples and the Androids, more,
544
:more of a Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft.
545
:And so they become filled with rules.
546
:One of the other platform holders sees
that gap, the developers are finding
547
:it annoying to work on that platform.
548
:Their next platform is very easy
to work on, and you have a shift.
549
:Which is why, how Microsoft took
it from Sony, Sony took it from
550
:Nintendo, you know, and now Sony
took it back from Microsoft.
551
:Yeah, yeah.
552
:And now we're getting into that zone
where I call it the iron curtains of
553
:gaming, which is you, you basically
owned a territory, which was basically
554
:a format, a device, Xbox 360.
555
:And then you said, you
can't self publish here.
556
:You got to go through our, our big retail
partners, which is basically the big
557
:publishers who Delivering disks, but, uh,
as an indie developer, we're not gonna,
558
:we're not going to let you self publish.
559
:Now, Sony started enabling that
to happen, right, even on the PS3.
560
:Um, and Steam was, was really first,
outside of the mobile companies.
561
:And so what happened, they got beat
up so bad, they had to adapt quick.
562
:This is the way the world is moving this
great book it's called i think it's called
563
:nudge and it's on um it's about silicon
valley business practices in it and
564
:identifies sort of the shift from the old
world which was like microsoft wins the
565
:operating system game you know war and.
566
:Or actually creates it, right?
567
:It creates the operating system
more and, uh, and in such, then
568
:it's about becoming a monopoly
and controlling everything, right?
569
:Which is a large way, the way that, uh,
Nintendo started, but with a more sort
570
:of insular model that didn't allow such
scale, even though they had huge success.
571
:Then the world comes along and
then you start having eBay's open.
572
:And what they're about is they're
about individuals building
573
:business on top of their business.
574
:Right.
575
:So you have now Google ads, eBay stores,
uh, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
576
:Then you have Facebook allowing
companies like Zynga to build their
577
:business on top of their business.
578
:So businesses become platforms for
other businesses, not just businesses
579
:become successful monopolies that
you can try to make deals with.
580
:You know, and it's a whole different way.
581
:So the, so the way is, and this is
where we saw, you know, the term
582
:of APIs really proliferate, right?
583
:This is, uh, it happened more in the
social landscape, you know, the, the, the
584
:social media tools out there were like,
Hey, get our API and write your own shit
585
:into here and see if you can sell it on
our network, you know, eBay being the
586
:perfect example, you could create your
own store, you could sell your own shit.
587
:You could handle it all yourself,
but if it weren't for eBay, you
588
:never would have been able to do it.
589
:And that was a fundamental shift
in terms of empowering people to
590
:build businesses on top of other
businesses versus, uh, an Apple,
591
:let's just take Apple in that example.
592
:So they know we need to
highlight the best product.
593
:Not just our product, we need
to highlight the best products.
594
:So our audience knows how
great a device we have, right?
595
:So then you have your Apple store
highlighting the top rated products.
596
:And our developers know that they can get.
597
:You know, attention, and they can succeed.
598
:That's right.
599
:So, when we build our product for
those devices, we say, which in the
600
:case of us with Stranger's Wrath and
Munch's Odyssey, we say, it's got to
601
:be brought there in an excellent way.
602
:And if it is, we'll get highlighted.
603
:Because if we aren't highlighted,
we're not going to sell anything.
604
:If we do get highlighted,
we have a chance.
605
:But in order to get highlighted,
we need to have high quality.
606
:Well, that didn't matter with Nintendo.
607
:Because they're stuck
in the old world, right?
608
:Right.
609
:Whereas the new world is like,
The customer getting our customers
610
:that bought into our install base
is more important than just trying
611
:to sell them our own software.
612
:So this is what Apple recognized,
Android, eBay, you know, you
613
:go on across the board, right?
614
:What types of Web 3.
615
:0 businesses allowed themselves
to be a platform for other people
616
:to reliably build businesses on?
617
:Now, you can argue, well, you know,
Facebook changed the dial and screwed
618
:Zynga, you know, after they were
mega successful, those things happen.
619
:But, but they, they, I think they,
they, they had to do what they did.
620
:Facebook.
621
:I, I agree.
622
:You know, it became spam heaven, right?
623
:Yeah.
624
:I was deleting friends that were
sending me farm bill invites.
625
:Exactly.
626
:Exactly.
627
:Not blocking the message,
deleting the friend, right?
628
:It was like, what the
fuck is all this noise?
629
:Um, but the point being is
that when we look at the
630
:future, it's really about that.
631
:If you're going to have a platform and
you try to keep it so behind your own
632
:iron curtain, that when even other people
come there trying to make Your customer's
633
:happy, and you don't do anything to
facilitate that ability, your lunch is
634
:going to get eaten by someone else who is.
635
:And so, you know, that's very much, I
think, where Nintendo's left itself today.
636
:And hopefully they pull it out.
637
:I mean, you know, it's a
legacy in gaming, right?
638
:They pulled it out from the
disaster that Atari had created.
639
:And, uh And they pulled
it out from the GameCube.
640
:Disaster.
641
:I mean, I love the GameCube as a player,
but, uh, from a business standpoint,
642
:yeah, so with all this, uh, you know,
time and lessons, I think we see another
643
:familiar pattern emerge, which is
the older they are, the more they get
644
:entrenched in an older legacy with, uh,
you know, with older dysfunctions and
645
:they, and out of momentum and scale and.
646
:You know, solidification of large
organizations, bureaucracies.
647
:They try to keep old business practices
into the future, and that, what do we see?
648
:Someone else eats their lunch.
649
:Remember when Netscape?
650
:Remember when people mentioned Netscape?
651
:You know?
652
:Well, Nintendo really created the
whole I, I believe they, it was
653
:their idea that, you know, the, the
publisher should pay for all the
654
:manufacturing costs to Nintendo.
655
:Had Atari not started?
656
:I'm not sure.
657
:It was before my time.
658
:I'm not sure either.
659
:Yeah.
660
:Remember the seal of approval?
661
:You had to have it, like, officially.
662
:Yeah, yeah, no matter what they had to
manufacture the cartridges, but it was the
663
:same with our Atari, like it wasn't until
PlayStation, I believe, I don't know if
664
:the NES, what was the NEC model that was
out there, NEC, uh, the turbo graphics,
665
:yeah, turbo graphics, I think you even had
to go through them to print your discs,
666
:but it wasn't really, well, in consoles,
you still have to pay a licensing fee,
667
:the licensing fee, your discs, yeah, but
they could have charged licensing fee on
668
:sale instead of a manufacturer, Uh, yeah,
but then they would have carried the risk.
669
:The financial risk for
the manufacturer, right?
670
:Well, you could pay for the manufacturer,
but not pay for the license.
671
:Until it sells.
672
:That would have been nice.
673
:Maybe just, yeah.
674
:That would have been nice.
675
:Yeah, because even I'm thinking
Abe's Odyssey, we're paying, what,
676
:750, 700 ish per licensing fee
to manufacture a 99 cent disc?
677
:Well, yeah.
678
:And so this creates the environment where
everyone is so excited to go digital.
679
:Right?
680
:You know?
681
:Right.
682
:And you get, you know, all the, all
the hassles with, uh, you know, cost
683
:of goods to, to physical retail, right.
684
:And all the limitations, but digital
has been a massive breath of fresh
685
:air in a lot of different ways.
686
:And I think because of it, it's allowed
us to rebuild a business that, that, uh,
687
:like I said, unless I was going to go
out and get financing and really, you
688
:know, prove to investors where I was
going to make them a lot more money,
689
:which would have been my day to day life.
690
:just ensuring that that money came back.
691
:And if that meant turning a story in the
war story instead of a noble story, you
692
:know, that's what I would have had to do.
693
:Instead, we were able to use the
power of the brand to redistribute
694
:content that we own, to build financial
resources, to be able to then go and
695
:start executing on newer content,
getting to where we are now, where we're
696
:really delivering brand new content.
697
:And so as far as that new
content goes, what's next?
698
:Uh, we got.
699
:Soulstorm, it's not a remake, but
it's inspired by Abe's Exoddus.
700
:The short of it is this, is I wanted
to retell that story because basically
701
:time, money, and business shaped it
into something was, was not the original
702
:vision of how Abe's Quintology was
going to unfold, which is why at the
703
:time I had this story about Soulstorm
brew and addictions and this and that.
704
:Basically Abe's Odyssey was
a story about how the free.
705
:The slaves wake up and free themselves
of their oppressors, and Abe's exodus
706
:was really going to be part two of that,
which was, and then the slaves wake up
707
:to the fact that their own habits and
addictions bring their own oppression.
708
:Wow.
709
:And so then they have to free
themselves from themselves.
710
:Story of my life right there.
711
:Oh, I wouldn't know
anything about it, right?
712
:Yeah, yeah, so, you know, having some
experience in these things, but in
713
:reality what happened was Exodus just
wound up being a game we had to get done
714
:in nine months, and, uh, as a result,
scripts due next week, and it's gotta be
715
:executable in nine months, type of thing.
716
:And it wound up being a story.
717
:The team did a great job, so
there's no baggage there, but it
718
:wound up being a story that was
not what I planned on having as
719
:the second piece in the Quintology.
720
:And so it sort of threw my intent
of the big epic story, the five
721
:piece story that I wanted to tell.
722
:And when we made New and Tasty,
uh, we asked the audience, we
723
:said, if we succeed in this, what
else would you want us to do?
724
:To make and they said do the
same thing the exodus I mean
725
:they say yeah new content.
726
:We're like well We can't really
afford new content And then we said
727
:but what would you like to mason?
728
:They said we'll do the same thing to
exodus if you can do a good job with
729
:new and tasty And then we did a good job
with new and tasty And it was successful
730
:and I was like shit kind of promised
them we'd do exodus, but I really want
731
:to change it I really want to change
it back to an original vision of what
732
:that story was supposed to be and then
the gameplay that would Go with it.
733
:So we dove into it thinking we'd
start doing a remake You And then
734
:we got some mechanics working, uh,
that are pretty, pretty wild stuff.
735
:And we went, okay, shit, we just dug
our hole and now we're building a
736
:whole brand new game that's facing
a story about brew and addictions.
737
:Uh, and it will still take place with
some of these facilities and in concept,
738
:Soulstorm Brewery, you know, rupture.
739
:A re imagining.
740
:A re imagining.
741
:So it's a whole different take that is
inspired by that original, uh, You know,
742
:stories, so to speak, but it's getting
back to what the original intent was, so
743
:it's actually part two of the Quintology.
744
:But I want to be careful in
saying that until it's out.
745
:Okay.
746
:Which I just kind of blew,
but really, that's my intent,
747
:is that it really is that.
748
:And, uh, so far so good,
so fingers crossed.
749
:And, and we definitely took on a much
bigger hit on cost and energy and time
750
:to, uh, you know, try and make it happen.
751
:And it's interesting.
752
:This gets back to your original
business stories in the beginning.
753
:So we had to ask yourself, well, what's
the risk and how do we execute and,
754
:and where do we fall out on this?
755
:And we decided that the biggest risk was
not going fresher, cooler, more intense.
756
:That was a bigger risk.
757
:And we're not.
758
:An entity that spreads its bets because
we don't have enough bets to spread.
759
:So we got to make sure
that what we bet on wins.
760
:And so it really has to be high quality.
761
:If you look at the Metacritic
on the Oddworld games, you know,
762
:it's, it's, uh, consistently in the
eighties, but you really, you know
763
:how hard it is to make games, man.
764
:It's really, you really got
to be committed to delivering
765
:as excellent as you can.
766
:with losing all the sleep
that it takes to get there.
767
:So that's what we're working on now.
768
:We really, we really dug in
deeper than we were expecting to.
769
:I think the audience will be really happy.
770
:Our job is a lot harder.
771
:I hope the audience will be happy.
772
:Our job is a lot harder.
773
:The game is going to cost more.
774
:And it's a, it's a big risk,
but we got to make it great.
775
:And that's kind of brings us back to,
if we can make it great, I think we
776
:can, We can count on a two X return
and anything above that would just
777
:be wonderful and keeps us in business
longer and lets us to have more freedoms.
778
:But our ultimate sort of financial
goals on our relatively conservative,
779
:you know, and it's and it's kind of
weird too, because we're building
780
:stuff that, you know, we're shipping
20 pounds product in a market today
781
:where really you should be shipping one.
782
:And fostering one pound of product
into the audience, learning from the
783
:audience, refining on it really the
way free to play does better, right?
784
:You know, you don't build a
triple a 20 pounds product and
785
:then dump it into the audience.
786
:You have something smaller.
787
:You're testing.
788
:You're learning.
789
:You're iterating faster.
790
:And if it hooks, if it catches, then
you're really feeling it and hopefully.
791
:You understood enough of it that
you know where it's going, you
792
:know, so we're still building like
that premium priced indie product.
793
:It comes in the box.
794
:It's not, it's not free to play.
795
:It's not going to have the sales
potential of a hit free to play.
796
:But, you know, it's the safer bet for
us at this time, but it's a lot of
797
:work for for less returns, you know,
when we're honest to ourselves, right?
798
:But you're telling your story,
you're saying what you want to say.
799
:And, um, like we said earlier,
2X is a pretty good X, you know.
800
:2X is not a bad X, you know.
801
:If it was a house, you'd buy
it in a second, you know.
802
:Yeah.
803
:But you really have to
keep that quality bar high.
804
:And I think you gotta
keep some surprises high.
805
:And you gotta make people feel your
love of the building of the product.
806
:Or playing it.
807
:And then at the end of the day, it's
got to be, you know, all the highfalutin
808
:stuff, you know, the, the philosophical
stuff we were talking before that lets
809
:us go home and sleep at night, you
know, whatever it gets us through the
810
:day, all that is really interesting,
uh, until you don't have a good product
811
:that's good entertainment playing game.
812
:Right?
813
:And then all those ideas didn't
mean anything because you have
814
:something that no one wants.
815
:So it's gotta be a good piece of what
it's original intent is, which is
816
:a great game, it's fun to play, and
you can have fun whether you really
817
:digest it at deeper levels or not.
818
:And that's what it's gotta be.
819
:First, and then hopefully it has, you can
embed the layers that you want to make it
820
:deeper so that you have, uh, hopefully,
you know, you're, you're, you're hooking
821
:a fan base, a generation with some more
memorable hooks, and then they hopefully
822
:support you, you know, thereafter.
823
:And that's a lot of the good currency.
824
:The sort of human currency that we're
riding on is a lot of people believe
825
:that, you know, we actually do put
our heart and soul in it, try to do
826
:a good job, try to respect them as
a gamer customer, you know, player.
827
:And so far it's working, you know, I
have no illusions that, you know, I
828
:might go broke on this one, man, you
know, there's never any illusions.
829
:The longer you're in the business, the
more, you know, the upsets can happen.
830
:Well, you never know what's going to
happen, but I think there's no way
831
:somebody could listen to this interview
and not know that you're, you're putting
832
:your heart and your soul into what you do.
833
:Well, I appreciate that.
834
:I appreciate that.
835
:Thanks a lot, Lorne, for coming on
and it's been great talking to you.
836
:It's been very inspiring for
me personally, and I'm sure
837
:for the audience as well.
838
:That was part two of the
interview with Lorne Lanning.
839
:After something like that, there's so
much that goes through my mind, so much
840
:I feel like I could share with you guys.
841
:But let me just close
with this passing thought.
842
:I think that When you think of these
great creatives in the game industry,
843
:you often think that they're just
thinking about the game and just
844
:thinking about the message and just
thinking about graphics, gameplay,
845
:game mechanics, all that sort of stuff.
846
:And of course they are thinking
about that stuff, but you can tell
847
:from the interview with Lauren, you
know, from everything to the art that
848
:inspires him to the message that's in
his game, to his deep understanding
849
:of the platforms and the players.
850
:You kind of got to have
the whole picture, right?
851
:You got to understand the creative
side and you also got to understand
852
:the business side That is a theme
we've already seen in the interviews
853
:and that is certainly a big theme
for this show Sometimes you can
854
:get lost in the business world.
855
:Sometimes you can get lost in the creative
side You got to keep both pieces in mind.
856
:That's what playmakers is all about
and thanks for being part of the
857
:show so far again, all the links to
the People and resources and tools
858
:and movies and all the stuff Lauren
talked about in the interviews is
859
:up on the website playmakerspodcast.
860
:com.
861
:Check it out and I will see
you in the next episode.
862
:Thanks for listening.