Educational Psychology and Disability with Dr Kirstie Rees

Welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast. In this series, we're exploring the different ways that psychologists and therapists can work in independent practice. I've been talking to a lot of authors recently, and it's always a real pleasure to do so because the passion and commitment that it takes to author a book is infectious, so I've been really looking forward to our interview with Dr Kirstie Rees today. Dr Kirstie Rees is a child and educational psychologist, specialised in the areas of disability, neurodiversity and mental health and wellbeing. She is also the author of a new book, The Mental Health and Wellbeing of Children and Young People with Learning Difficulties.

Full show notes and a transcript of this episode are available at The Business of Psychology

Links for Kirstie:

Website: www.kirstiereespsychology.com

LinkedIn: ​​Dr Kirstie Rees

Book: The Mental Health and Wellbeing of Children and Young People with Learning Difficulties: A Guide for Educators - by Dr Kirstie Rees

Rosie on Instagram:

@rosiegilderthorp

@thepregnancypsychologist

The highlights

• Kirstie tells us how she got started in educational psychology 00:51
• We discuss the language used around disability 12:05
• Kirstie talks about her move into independent work 16:13
• Kirstie tells us about what sparked the idea for her book 22:03
• I ask Kirstie about the writing process 26:52
• We discuss going direct to a publisher, rather than using an agent 32:42
• Kirstie gives us her advice for psychologists and therapists wanting to write a book 37:50

Thank you so much for listening to the Business of Psychology podcast. I'd really appreciate it if you could take the time to subscribe, rate and review the show. It helps more mental health professionals just like you to find us, and it also means a lot to me personally when I read the reviews. Thank you in advance and we'll see you next week for another episode of practical strategy and inspiration to move your independent practice forward.

SPEAKERS

Rosie Gilderthorp, Kirstie Rees

Welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast. In this series, we're exploring the different ways that psychologists and therapists can work in independent practice. I've been talking to a lot of authors recently, and it's always a real pleasure to do so because the passion and commitment that it takes to author a book is infectious. So I've been really looking forward to our interview with Dr Kirstie Rees today. Dr Kirstie Rees is a child and educational psychologist, specialised in the areas of disability, neurodiversity and mental health and wellbeing. And she is also the author of a new book, The Mental Health and Wellbeing of Children and Young People with Learning Difficulties. Welcome to the podcast, Kirsty.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

So can you start by just telling us a little bit about how you got started in educational psychology?

Yeah, of course. It was a bit of a rocky road in a way. It was something that I wanted to do from a younger age. So when I left school, I planned to become one, went to study psychology at university. And then in my first year, I think I struggled, I struggled with the bigger lectures, feeling quite anonymous in such a huge course. And also in terms of the stats, I decided this wasn't something that I was able to do and worried a lot. I know, you know, a lot of psychologists feel the same about stats when they first start out, and decided really to, to change paths. So I pursued English and French at that point and became more focused on travelling, then became a teacher to allow me to travel with always, I suppose, the intention in the back of my mind, returning to psychology. When I was travelling, I read a lot of kind of psychology books, it was something I was always interested in. So when I came back to the UK after a couple of years, I did work in a school, worked as a high school teacher, but focused more on the pastoral side, that was the area I was interested in. And then eventually started to retrain, first of all, doing the conversion course in psychology because I didn't have enough psychology in my initial degree. So my, my elder daughter was two at the time when I set off doing the conversion course, and then became an assistant psychologist for a number of years and then eventually into educational psychology. So got there eventually, but I'm really pleased that I took that route because I think going into it older with my own children and having all of that experience and life experience made it much easier and more rewarding when I did finally start to become a real educational psychologist.

Wow, that's so interesting because it was the stats that made me think I couldn't study psychology when I was 18 as well. And I also went back and did a conversion course after a few years and maybe a bit more confident, I suppose. What made the difference for you? What made you feel like, yes, now I can take this on?

I think, I think when you're younger, you know, when you're at school you think you have, you put different subjects into silos and you think I'm good at that and I'm not so good at that, and because maths wasn't something I enjoyed as much as say English or social sciences, I panicked and thought I couldn't do it rather than actually just feeling the fear and getting over that and then when you're older you bring a maturity and you see what the outcome might be. You actually kind of enjoy the process of not being very good at something and working it out. So I started, the stats side of things was always harder for me, but I started to enjoy that and see the value in that and in doing research. So I think it was that maturity and life experience and realising that, you know, yeah, you would actually learn more by going through the process of finding something more difficult.

Now that's so interesting, isn't it? The difference between young people when they're learning and maybe older students. So how did things kind of shape up after you got your qualifications?

Well, when I started out I, I did the conversion course and then, like I said, I had, I had a daughter when I started the conversion course and then was set to, I suppose, trying to get a job as an assistant psychologist and then, and then try and get on the, the course to become an educational psychologist. When my elder daughter was two, I had my son and he had Cerebral Palsy. So that was as a result of a very traumatic birth which meant that he suffered brain injury and was very severely disabled, and I was very ill as a result of the birth, so I suppose life stopped or changed hugely at that period in my life, and for all of us as a family, and that changed everything, I think, in terms of my own understanding, and what it meant to be a mum. So I'd gone from having a little girl who was two to having a little boy as well, who was very, very ill, physically as well, and a lot of time in hospital. And I think, you know, we learned so much from the process that shaped us hugely as a family, and unfortunately, Thomas, our son, didn't live beyond one, but you know, which has had an impact and shaped everything for all of us in our lives and some of that has been very positive, too, in terms of how we've grown as a family. But, at the time, I think I became, I felt very much at a loss in terms of what that meant being a parent. It had already been, as you know, a real steep learning curve becoming a mum to a little girl, you know, a typically developing little girl who was great, and then having a little boy whose needs I felt I wasn't meeting very well a lot of the time, or I didn't, I felt at a loss. I felt I was at the mercy of professionals telling me what I should be doing and how I should be looking after him, how I should be promoting the interaction, how I should be keeping him well, which was really, really disempowering. And I learned a lot about myself in the process, I learned really, you know, how much power I had had without really realising that, you know, as a middle class professional and being flung to the other side of the table and then realising how powerless I felt and actually how de-skilled I felt as a mum and the guilt that came with that. I think, you know, when you become a mum, you acquire a backpack of guilt from day one that nobody tells you about before you become a mum. And this was so much harder. And, and it made me realise, because at the time, you know, when I was training, like I said, at the time I was in the middle of doing the conversion course, but I had been working as a teacher. So at the time I'd been working with disability and with, with children with special needs, but actually to be thrown to the other side and really realise what that feels like and what it feels like when people are talking about your wee boy and your life and, and how judged I felt. I think that kind of changed everything. So that, for five years after that time I did get a job as an assistant psychologist after our son had died, sometime after that. And I did that for five years and had my other daughter, my youngest daughter, and then went to retrain. And for five years I had to stay away from disability because that was very painful and I recognised that I recognised that wasn't beneficial to the people I was supporting. But, after a period of time it became a real passion for me, and a real area of focus, and I think has helped me an awful lot because I think when Thomas was alive, you know, he, he was very young when he died, so we didn't have that time to focus on him and to really get to know him beyond the disability and beyond the illness and beyond all the professionals, and in some way, I feel I've been able to do that through my work.

It's a remarkable journey to have been on and I can't imagine the courage it must have taken to even re-enter a career when I think I understand a little bit, a fraction of the effect it can have on your confidence going through something like that, because of the struggle to find your identity again. And yeah, thank you for sharing with us how you did that and how you managed to reconstruct yourself as a professional, as a mother, and as a family. So, as that interest in helping others with children with disabilities started to spark in you, how did you make steps into shaping your work that way?

Yeah, I think, I mean, you, I think you're absolutely right when you say the word identity, you know, at the time I, I think as a, as a female as well, you know, your identity can be really changed by being a mum anyway. And you're trying to make sense of who you are, particularly on maternity leave, and then going back to work and all of that. So that was far greater, it was trying to work out who I was and where this all fitted in. And going back and gradually beginning to work in that area and to really focus on that area, I think that really helped in terms of working out who I was and I was able to kind of bring together me as a person and as a mum and as a psychologist. And I think, you know, I brought… I've been able to have the understanding and that empathy I would hope. It's not something I do share with parents I'm working with, not at all, and I'm very, very aware that my experience isn't necessarily comparable to anybody else's who has a child of 6, 8, 10 you know, with a range of needs, I wouldn't try and compare that, but I think in terms of understanding, being on the other side of the table, that's really helped. I think what that allowed me to do professionally was to stand back a little bit and view things through a broader lens. So, when I did start to focus on disability and work in the area of the curriculum, initially, my first job in educational psychology, which was on one of the local authorities near Glasgow, disability and what at that time in Scotland, we called severe and profound learning difficulties, I know that's still the title in education in England, my job was to look at the curriculum and our role in the curriculum in trying to mould the curriculum to make it meaningful for children and young people with significant needs. And I think I was aware from my own experiences of how difficult it can be to perceive what progress looks like for a child with significant disabilities, and actually culturally how much we're informed by our kind of varying grade notions of what progress is, so having that linear trajectory in our heads and thinking that one step, you know, will be followed by a next step and working your way up a ladder in terms of next step for a child. So I think working within the curriculum, although the curriculum at that point had been adapted and was more flexible in Scotland, I think it was still, became very apparent to me quite quickly working in that field that there was still an expectation that children should potentially be following certain steps or certainly education staff felt that. So I think I was able to bring my own experience of as a mum of trying to work out what was important for my child and what I should be doing to promote his development. I was able to bring that to the table in my role as an educational psychologist, and it also sparked an interest in, in our cultural understandings of progress and disability and development and the language that's used and being very aware of how the language of disability really informs how we then respond and how that evolves over time and how, and then questioning, well, why does it evolve? And then thinking, well, that says a lot about our understandings or our lack of acceptance of difference that human beings will start to use words that are associated with disability, often with negative connotations over time and then the language changes again. But then eventually it might assume these kind of negative connotations and, you know, says a lot about our cultural and our cultural acceptance of difference. So, so I suppose yeah, my personal experience and then my professional experience allowed me to really contemplate some of that stuff and really make that explicit, I think, in my practice and, and really think about when I was working with families and children and young people, you know, what did progress look like for that child and what was meaningful and relevant for them and not necessarily within the confines of the curriculum or how we could do that within an educational setting.

That sounds like such powerful work, and I think the point about language is one that often gets missed if, if you don't have lived experience of how that language feels on the other side of the table. Yeah, I think there's a lot of very well intentioned professionals out there, you know, in my experience, I've got two children with special educational needs, using my quotation marks, and often a lot of the language that's used, it feels extremely judgmental either of me, of them, like it's, you're making a lot of assumptions about where they're going to go and what they're going to do and things that make me feel very uncomfortable. But I can tell that the professionals aren't intending it in that way. It's, yeah, it's one of those things that as a psychologist, I think it's our job to pick up on, but would be very difficult if you didn't have that lived experience.

Sorry, I was just going to come in there and say I absolutely agree. And I think, you know, over time what I would hope to do is to take time and work out what languages is helpful and beneficial for their child and their family to use, not just assume, and labels are used, in fact, you know, I think what's interesting about the context we're working in and, you know, there's a huge rise in the neurodiversity movement and in the language and using the term neurodivergent when we're talking about young people with, with special needs or what we term in Scotland, additional support needs. But yet on the other hand, on the flip side of that, there seems to be more, more use of more labels than ever before you know, and that can be really overwhelming and confusing, really overwhelming for families. And actually there's not a lot of time spent explaining and talking about, well what is useful and what's helpful and what's empowering for the child or their family. Like you said in a meeting or online in particular I think, which doesn't allow a lot of time for debate and a lot of room for debate and labels can be bandied around all of the time and without really really being able to to talk about what those mean for the people they're been used about, so absolutely I agree with what you said.

So true, and we're in a really interesting place at the moment where the labels have become so prolific and so broad that no one really understands what we mean by them. And it led to, and I was thinking about this when I read your notes before the podcast, my hairdresser said to me the other day, ‘So, is your son, like, the real autism, like I’d know, or is, or is it like he's just a bit shy?’ And I was like, interesting, this is what people are now thinking about this label. And I had no idea how to respond to that, you know, any, any parent who's got similar experiences probably relates to the fact that I literally said nothing. I was like, oh, I don't know. I just had my own processing lag for a while. But yeah, I think that really does show, doesn't it, where we're at with confusing the public with all of these labels. How confusing it must be for the young people themselves.

Absolutely. I think that, you know, there is that real worry that children can feel very easily pathologized or completely disempowered if people are using a lot of labels about them and they've not been party to that or there's not been discussion about that or an understanding about that. It must be really scary for a lot of children and young people. And some of the older young people I work with in mainstream schools, you know, they'll describe that feeling ‘What's wrong with me?’ And there's been, I think, some of that use of labelling has led to real focus on what's wrong with a person, rather than, you know, what's happened to a person, what's going on around the person. And yet, interestingly, the whole neurodiversity movement is really meant to be empowering and include everybody. But yeah, it's led to this scrambling around to use even more labels to try and describe people. So it's, it is a really interesting time, but a really complex time to work in and to live in and particularly for children and young people, I think.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so what was it that encouraged you to start doing some independent work? Because it sounds like you were doing a lot of really powerful stuff.

You know, it's, I mean, I've heard this a lot when listening to your podcast about that conflict between you know, working within a local authority for public sector, that that's the area you went into and we're passionate about and continue to be passionate about. And so there's that huge amount of cognitive dissonance, I think in terms of you know, what, what I, your own principles, how you set out and what you want to do versus the reality. I think during COVID was a difficult time for me, I think the things that I'm talking about in terms of the influence of cultural factors and, and ideas and that has informed how I feel about my work as well, I think grappling sometimes with policy and legislation as an educational psychologist, as any kind of psychologist, I think, was tricky where sometimes I feel there's a real mismatch between, you know, what I want to be doing versus what you have to do in the context you're working in. And for me, you know, being able to, to take the, the passion that I have for working in the area of disability and develop that area, it was something I thought would be more fruitful within an independent sector, within the independent sector and do my own thing alongside the work in the, in the public sector and to allow me maybe some more flexibility and to be creative as well and to do some of the things that I found I wasn't able to develop In the public sector, So it's been, it still is a work in progress in terms of getting that balance right. I think I'm getting there and I want to maintain that balance and I want to keep my foot in the public sector and the local authority and to know what's going on and to keep my skills up in that area whilst developing my skills in this one particular area as well.

So what does the independent side of your work look like at the moment?

Well, it's still, it's still very much a work in progress in terms of trying to get that balance. And I started, I currently do three days within the public sector and then two days independently. And the way it's worked for me like I said, it's been a couple of years worth of trying to work out, and one of my fears, I think, about going independently was the fear of being isolated. I know that I work much better when I'm around other people and when I'm part of a team, so that was something that was, that was a real deterrent as well. But what I have done is, I've got work in other areas, so I still feel that I am part of other teams and other organisations, and that's been important to me so far. So one of the roles I have currently is I work one day a week for a charity, an organisation, Cerebral Palsy Scotland which is a fantastic charity providing psychological consultation to some of the therapists working in the team, the physiotherapist, speech and language and OTs. Also developing, I’m developing a parent's program with them at the moment for parents with children with cerebral palsy. And doing some direct work and a lot of that direct work has been with adults, which has been, although I've worked, obviously, very closely with parents over many years, actually working with, with adult’s support and mental well being has been a really great experience for me, and a learning curve and has allowed me to really develop skills. So that's one day a week. I do some other work for them. I'm working for Dundee University for the educational psychology course there doing a, so I'm called a partner tutor. So I just do work that's needed really. So I'm working, doing some teaching and marking and supervision. And I'm also just starting to work for an organisation, Counselling for Carers, doing some support for parents of children and young people with special needs. So that, that's, that's kind of, I've got some other things going on as well. I've been developing resources, so I'm, I've set up a website, I'm trying to develop some online training, and I've got some online training lined up as well, and I'm hoping to forge links with some independent schools, support children with a range of needs, again, providing training and consultation.

Wow. So there's a lot going on. I think when you value diversity in your work, it's absolutely the right thing to have lots of stuff going on because that's why you did it, right? You wanted that flexibility and you wanted the creativity, but it can get overwhelming. So how have you managed that kind of process setting up and overcoming those challenges?

Well, I think you know, it continues to be, like I said, a work in progress. So I still have to work out the balance because I think one of the challenges is wearing lots of different hats and I love variety and that's something I absolutely love about being a psychologist but it's actually knowing where to to put the boundaries down and make sure that you know, I'm not, that I'm not over committing to anything and that I can give it my all. So in terms of setting up, I have three days and that's something that I suppose I'll continue to look at within the local authority and then working out what's manageable. I think the thing in terms of focusing on setting up resources and online training is going to become more of an area of focus for me going forward, and that's in conjunction with the book really. I think with my book, that has been a long term plan and that fitted in with my plan to go independently because like, you know, this was an area of focus for me and I wanted to ensure that that would complement, very much complement what I'm doing. So the resources and training will all complement the book so that going forward I'll be focusing on that as well and seeing what that means in terms of some of the other work.

Sounds like an excellent business plan. So tell me a little bit more about the book then. So what sparked the idea for it?

The book's been very much a long term plan. It's something that I'd had an idea about, you know, probably about five years ago. In my role as an educational psychologist, one of the things I love doing is creating resources and making those accessible and, you know, to meet the needs of children, young people or adults or whoever that's for. And I think I've kind of, over the years, developed the ability to be able to write very clearly, I think, in terms of reducing things and summarising information, but trying to make that very accessible and clear at the same time. I did a doctorate at Dundee University in 2017, when I did that, and I really enjoyed the process and, and the experience of being able to read, do research but actually spend a lot of time thinking about the reading. And my supervisor there had said to me, have you ever thought about, you know, writing some of what you're talking about in a book? And I think the other thing I wanted to make sure was that this would be a book that not only focused on disability and learning difficulties and learning disabilities, but that was accessible and that was practical. I know from doing training with education staff over many years that, you know, they really value being able to come away with strategies and realistic approaches that they can put in place in a busy classroom or that parents can use in the home setting and, and find quite easy. But those being based on the evidence base and research. So, I wanted to make sure that there was a book focused on the area of disability and learning difficulties, but that was accessible, that you could dip in and out of, that people would find useful, that they could open a chapter, find what they needed, use it, and, and not have to go away and think about it or look other things up. I think the other thing for me is I wanted to reassure people that actually what they're already doing is often very, very good and the importance of promoting a relationship based approach. One of the other things I think that's become very difficult in the current context is that people can quite easily feel de-skilled. So, in one respect as a psychologist, it's great that there’s this understanding of mental health, this increased understanding of mental health and well being. On the flip side of that, I think parents in particular can feel very easily de-skilled if people start talking about mental health and potentially feeling we're not the person or people to do that. And that can be the same for teachers, particularly around about children with learning disabilities. People thinking that I'm not the person for the job, we need somebody else to come in, the psychologist to come in and do it for us, when in fact they might already be the person. Teachers will be the people and parents absolutely will be the people who have the best in depth knowledge of that child and the type of approaches and relationship based approaches that can really help to support their needs. So, so I wanted it ultimately to be about mental health, but to kind of demystify that term, to have some debate around about the language of disability and mental health, but do so in a very kind of accessible way and then provide a lot of strategies and resources and supports that people would find useful in a school setting, but also hopefully in a multi agency context and also for, for parents ultimately as well.

That's so valuable, because I've got a lot of teachers in my life, and something that I will often hear them say is, ‘Well, I don't know anything about mental health’. And you know, how does anyone think they don't know anything about mental health? We all have it. You all know something about it. And often these are very compassionate people who I think, exactly as you said, just feel really de-skilled because of the labels. So yeah, I imagine that this book is going to be very, very well received.

I hope so. Yeah. The first I've, the way I've structured it as well, you know, there's, there's a summary, each chapter, there's a summary at the end that summarises very succinctly. There's the resources at the end of each chapter. There's a case study in each chapter. There's points for reflection. So, you know, it could be used as a training tool as well. But the first three chapters allow some of that debate. So there's a chapter on the language of disability and learning difficulties, there’s information on mental health, and again, a bit of debate about that, as well as thinking about what we mean when we're trying to support children's mental wellbeing. So yeah, so I hope there's a balance. Like I said, the language is very simple and accessible, so I hope that it allows some of the opportunity to really reflect on the language we use and to reflect on what we mean by mental health but to do so in a hopefully a very positive way and to reassure people, like I said, the aim is that it's empowering. That's what I hope.

And what was the process of actually getting it written like for you?

It was, it was quite… in some respects it was, it was really quite enjoyable. So actually writing it, you know, it's, it sounds a bit odd I think sometimes but I quite, sometimes that can be quite cathartic to me just writing because you know some of my colleagues and friends will say like, you know, was that not really stressful doing it? Now, obviously, it took a long time. It was very much a long term aim, so I, I didn't have a huge… I didn't feel there was huge pressure to get it done. Obviously, when I went to the publishers and proposed it and put together a plan, I had in my head that it would take a year, but I'd already been writing bits and it incorporated a lot of resources that I was already using and had developed. You know, I write at different times, it would be early on a Sunday morning before anyone's got up. It'll be late at night. Those, it tends to be early in the morning or late at night. It bizarrely allows me to switch off. Well, not bizarrely, but it just is something that allows me to focus on something else, I can achieve flow sometimes when, when I'm doing it. So the process was quite enjoyable in that sense. Frustrating as well, it's a kind of love hate relationship because I can really get immersed and love it, and then other times find it frustrating and be frustrated at something that sounded okay a couple of days before, you read again and you think, well, you know that's not great. So yeah, it was, it was a process. It was a process of, I think, feeling quite muddled at times, you know, you'll write a chapter and then go back and, but then realising that actually often the most enjoyable part was the editing, the redrafting and the re-editing and, and realising it's absolutely, because obviously this is the first time I'd written a whole book, I'd only ever written papers before, but realising that the editing and the redrafting is such an important part, it can be really enjoyable that part as well, but then, I suppose I stopped beating myself up that I was going back and revising and revising because that was the really important part.

Oh, interesting. So I was going to say, how on earth can editing be enjoyable? My brain, once I've written the first draft, I just lose all interest and I find it really difficult to force myself to go back. But I wonder if you're right, if the little bit of that is because of the inner critic making that really difficult. Whereas maybe if you accepted it's a necessary part of the process, it would become that more enjoyable growth mindset space.

I think I've got a really funny way of going about it because I think I tend to write quite a bit and a lot of it will be gobbledygook at the beginning and then, so if I'm writing one bit I'll go and write quite a lot and then go back and go back and go back and kind of eventually finish that chapter before then moving on, but then I'll go back again to that chapter but I'm aware when I first start writing you know when you read what you've written in your first draft. But getting over that and then realising like I said some of the revision was almost a rewrite of some of the chapters, you know, when you start again and see it from a different perspective. The bit I did find really hard was right at the end doing all the proofreading because I'm hopeless at that and I always just think it says what I think it says rather than noticing the typos. So the kind of tying up the loose ends, that's the bit I'm not so good at or didn't enjoy. And I think probably over time I felt a bit more confident about it. I think at the beginning I felt really unsure of my own voice. I was concerned about how I would sound, about when to use first person, and to really work out how it all fitted together, where, you know, when am I using you and directing and using second person and directing the, the reader and then when am I, I'm going to be confident enough to bring in my own experience and that evolved over time with, with the support of some good mentors, I'd say, you know friends and colleagues, not all psychologists, but I had a kind of close group of about four who I would go to and they were great in terms of reading over, and my husband first and foremost, he did an awful lot of proofreading for me as well and helped hugely. So having those people that you know you can go to and who will be, give you honest feedback and open feedback.

I think that's so important. I mean, did you get any support with stuff like editing and proofreading?

From the publishers, yes. So it's Jessica Kingsley Publishers who've been really supportive from the outset. So when I had the idea, and like I said, that was a long time ago, I'd put together a plan and then I changed the plan a couple of times. So for in terms of a proposal, so I finally sent that over two years ago now to Jessica Kingsley and then they contacted me and I'd written kind of a first chapter at that point. So throughout the process I did have a link and different links and I've learned a lot actually about the publishing process. So when I was writing it you know, I remember sending the first three chapters and just them checking over the style and my writing and all of that, and then they would get back with really good feedback. So I felt really supported by them. And then the book was finished actually nearly a year ago. So realising how long the whole production stage is, I think that's, you know, tomorrow is the actual official publication date and I received an inspection copy a couple of weeks ago, or six copies in the post, so that was really interesting and exciting/nerve wracking seeing it in its final form, final version, but then thinking, oh, you know, what if I find mistakes? Or how am I going to feel about it now, because it's a long time. But obviously there was a, you know, copywriter and proofreader who were all part of the process from the publishers. So I had support with that. So they were noticing the typos that I'd long since not noticed. So that was really supportive and they've been very supportive.

That sounds really helpful. So you went straight to Jessica Kingsley as a publisher, how did you choose them rather than going through an agent or any of that stuff?

Well, I think I'd done a bit of research because like I said, it'd been a bit of a long term aim and the reason I'd chosen them is because I have a lot of books that have been published by Jessica Kingsley Publishers. I'm sure you'll be aware of them. And what I liked about them is they do publish a lot of books in the field of, you know, neurodiversity, mental health, learning disabilities but so many of their books are so practical and accessible. And I know that those are books that we use a lot as educational psychologists, they’re books we share a lot with schools. So I had considered other publishers as well, but I thought, well, you know, if I look at my own bookshelves, these are books I found really useful and practical and like I said I wanted to get that balance between having that debate and reflection but having lots of practical strategies and resources, so I contacted them. So they were the first publishers I contacted, so I had a few in mind, I'd looked through the process for a couple of publishers, because it is a nonfiction book and because it is for particular settings like education, I knew that, you know, I didn't necessarily need an agent, I could go straight with a proposal and a draft chapter and be really clear. I spent a bit of time on my proposal being really clear and specific about what would be in that. So they contacted me really quickly, I think about a week or so later.

That's really interesting. So I know there'll be people listening to this that are thinking about trying to get a book out there and it's quite difficult actually to find any step by step advice, other than you have to get an agent first. And actually lots of people I've spoken to for this podcast and in my coaching practice and in my experience too, we often don't need an agent. And actually things are better received directly to the right publisher. So if you do know that there's a lot of writing being done on similar topics by a certain publisher, it's often quite good to get a proposal into them, I think.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And when I did my research, I found, you know, the publishers, all of the publishers, I think there were three I was going to contact, they all said about sending in a proposal. So, you know, they're all similar in terms of the type of books that they publish and there wasn't necessarily that need for an agent. So that, so I, that was my first step. I thought I'm just going to try directly because it is a nonfiction book with a particular audience, I'm just going to try. And you know, like I said, that was really, that worked so I would recommend other people if it's that's the type of book you want to write there isn't necessarily that need to get an agent. And I know when I've done some reading on the internet as well it has said you don't always need an agent for this type of book.

Absolutely. I just think a lot of people don't realise that. And so it's really helpful. Thank you for sharing that experience. So I guess it's probably a bit of a rollercoaster ride writing a book, I should imagine. What were the most inspiring moments along the way?

I think mentioning to, you know, having those people, those informal mentors, in terms of them bringing their experience and supporting me and reading what I'd written and kind of making me feel that I was doing the right thing. My family are hugely supportive, that's the number one support. So having the support of my husband and my daughters and my parents still, even at my age, you know, they know that this is really important to me. So having that as well. And I think, you know, I'm so inspired by the contents of the book. I really believe in the content of the book in terms of supporting others to, to support children's mental health and wellbeing and for those children with more significant learning disabilities, that's such an important area. So I think there's a real need for it. I think as well as I, as I wrote it, it allowed me to reflect on my own practice, you know, my own work. And to really think about things. It also allowed me to draw upon the work that I'd done for the doctorate in terms of the families I worked with and interviewed then, and to think again about some of their responses and their contribution in terms of their experiences that were really poignant and really helpful. So it allowed me to sit back and reflect and think about the work I've done in the past and mainly the people I've worked with and the children I've worked with. You know, there's a case study in every chapter and I've been really careful to make them an amalgam of different children so that you couldn’t identify any one child or young person from that case study, but it was, it was good to think, to sit and think back about some of the children and young people I'd worked with and to think about them and their personalities and all that they brought and their resilience and tenacity and some of the, their learning along the way and my learning from them. So, that was inspiring as well.

So I guess, because I'm aware I've taken up quite a bit of your time already, but what advice would you give to a psychologist or therapist out there? Maybe they've got a topic that they're passionate about and they would like to write a book, but might be feeling a bit nervous about it?

I think I would make it a long term goal. So not put too much pressure on yourself, realise that even if you are writing it and you know it's going to be published, it's still a real long term goal. So I think give yourself that time and accept and work towards it. So don't be too hard on yourself. I think doing it in short, sharp bursts and not, you know, trying to make it fit into an already busy day, just finding times that you will, you will actually find it enjoyable. And giving up when it isn't so enjoyable. Or if you're having a day when you know, I'm not in, I'm not in the mood to get this done. I would say not being too hard on yourself in terms of the language you're using, I think, think simple. You know, think about simplifying it, thinking about the message that you want to get across. I think, you know, I did English at university and you know, you think, oh, you're not going to be JK Rowling and don't expect that. You don't have to incorporate similes and metaphors, you know, just, just think about actually how will you get your message across. So, don't worry too much and actually being able to simplify it in the edit that will come. So don't worry too much about your, the English that you're using in your initial drafts. I think the other thing is maybe thinking about tenacity, I think just, just that, I think, is more important than anything. You know, this has been a long term goal for me and it's been since probably 2017 that I, I started wanting to write this, but I think if you keep going, I think that's more important. That's probably more important than anything, so don't lose sight of that.

Yeah. And it's so easy to do, isn't it? I mean, the number of projects I've started and then I get halfway through and I'm like, oh, I just don't think, I don't think this is any good at all. And I scrap it, and actually working through that period of doubt always leads to better things.

Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And give you, if, if you're not enjoying it, give yourself some time and then go back to it. Even if that's a month or so, that's fine.

Thank you so much for sharing your story and all your wisdom with us today. It's been really valuable, really interesting. So obviously I'm going to recommend that people check out the book and I'll put the link to that in the show notes because I'm sure that there are a lot of people that it will support their practice, but also that they might have educators in their lives or people who might be home educating who would find this book really useful. So I'll make sure that's there. But where else can people find you if they want to connect with you?

Well, I have my website and that's all been part and parcel of the process to make sure there's a website. And like I said, I'm keen to start adding more resources onto there. So that's just my name kirstiereespsychology.com. And in terms of social media, the biggest platform I'm on is LinkedIn. So I'm on LinkedIn as well. So I'd say those are the two main places to find me and to get in touch.

Fantastic. And all those links will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on Kirsty.

Okay. Thanks Rosie. Thanks for having me.