“The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a podcast produced by Christianity Today and it has gone viral in popularity. What can we, as church planters and pastors, learn from listening to this story of a popular Seattle church exploding in growth, only to have it all fall apart to leave so many devastated? You don’t have to listen to that podcast first, before gleaning some wisdom from this episode of Unfiltered. It’s not uncommon for church planters to wrestle with their influence. Let’s talk about it. 

0:22 Lee introduces the conversation about the podcast The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill that has grown in popularity in the past year.

1:17 Lee says the podcast has been a big conversation topic within the church and would like to process it from a listener’s side.

1:57 Lee asks Danny what stood out to him as he listened to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.

2:15 Danny states that Mark Driscoll, the pastor at the center of the Mars Hill story, was influential from afar in his own life. 

2:36 Danny talks about how his perspective of the story changed from the beginning to the middle. He found the story both disheartening and convicting. 

3:25 Lee asks Danny to unpack that statement.

3:26 Danny explains that it was disheartening to hear what was happening behind the scenes at Mars Hill Church. 

3:56 The convicting part of the story for Danny was seeing some tendencies of pride in himself and other leaders.

4:30 As Danny works with church planters, the very things he’s looking for are what made Mark Driscoll a successful church planter. But those characteristics can also be destructive, when left unchecked.

4:55 Danny asks Lee what he thought of the podcast.

5:09 Lee thinks it’s sobering that there’s always a dark side to church planters’ leadership styles.

5:30 Lee appreciated Christianity Today’s level of in-depth journalism when it came to hearing past employees’ side of the story.

5:54 Lee gives the reminder that as people in authority in church leadership, there’s a responsibility to steward the influence God has given.

6:56 Another reaction Lee had to the podcast were moments when he cringed over some of the behind-the-scenes behavior and wondered how much “dirty laundry” should be aired when taking a deep dive into a church’s story.

7:38 Danny finds it interesting that this podcast struck a chord not only with church leaders, but with church attenders. He has some concerns that people will have a fear of church leadership and will want to get rid of it entirely. 

8:42 Acts 29 is a ministry that is discussed at length in The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. Danny talks about how the ministry has changed since Mark Driscoll left Mars Hill Church and it is not the same ministry it was in years past.

9:29 Danny concludes that after listening to the podcast, he walked away realizing everyone is messed up and it’s only through God that the church continues to grow and thrive.

9:50 For Lee, listening to the podcast brought his understanding of the dangers of celebrity for pastors to another level.

10:50 Lee encourages church planters to think about why they’re doing ministry in the first place. Remembering the importance of helping people follow Jesus can keep pride at bay.

11:17 Danny talks about the role culture and social media has in the fall of celebrity pastors.

12:07 Lee appreciates how the podcast attempted to point out the flaws of some of the wrong things church planters pursue when going into ministry.

13:13 Lee asks Danny what he would say to those who haven’t listened to the podcast.

13:17 Danny encourages Unfiltered listeners to check out The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast. And as they listen, they should ask God to convict them and learn from the mistakes of others.

13:41 Lee thinks a church planter understanding their influence is a journey they always need to wrestle with and think about their intentions.

Lee Stephenson: Hey, everyone, welcome to the Unfiltered podcast. Lee Stephenson here from Orlando. And a church planter in Orlando and vice president of Church Planting for Converge.

Danny Parmelee: I'm Danny Parmelee. And I oversee Church Planting for Converge MidAmerica.

Lee Stephenson: And on today's episode, we're going to have a little bit of conversation about something that's been going on over the last year in our culture. And I would say our subculture. Because I don't know how it's permeated from a grand point. But Danny, there has been a podcast of recent that has gone viral from the standpoint of how it's impacted the local church.

Danny Parmelee: Unfiltered! Unfiltered, right? It's our podcast.

Lee Stephenson: It's our podcast! I wish that was true. But we've got the Christianity Today's podcast on The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. And I'm sure in your world... Because I know in my world, it's been a conversation piece. Almost every time I get together with pastors or other church planters, "Man, did you catch that episode?" Or you know they just want to talk a little bit about it and process it. And so, we thought, hey, why don't we just take some time? And let's process it out loud on our Unfiltered podcast? Because we are unfiltered, right?

Danny Parmelee: Yep, absolutely. And I do think it's important like you and I haven't really discussed what direction or where this is going to go. So, this is as raw as it gets for us to kind of share a few of our thoughts. And hopefully, it will just stimulate some more conversation for guys as they're processing through it themselves.

Lee Stephenson: And the good news for everybody is Danny did listen to all the episodes.

Danny Parmelee: Yes, yes.

Lee Stephenson: And I too. But let me just throw you the first kind of question, Danny. What stood out to you about the podcast? And did your perspective change from the start of the podcast to the point that you get to the end of the podcast?

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, definitely. Definitely a change there. You know, I think background information is that, you know, I would say that Mark Driscoll was influential in my life. In the sense of even just, you know, from a distance and kind of how they were doing things and excited to see how Mars Hill was growing. And I think there was a lot of affinity with, you know, what they were doing philosophy of ministry wise, and what we were doing at Epikos in Milwaukee as well. So, to be honest, I was kind of rooting for him in the beginning. Even knowing that, you know, there was challenges. And I knew that there was mishaps and mistakes that he made. But, you know, I was kind of hearing some of those clips from way back when going, "Yeah, I remember when he said that! That was so awesome!" And then I think, you know, towards the... Not towards the end, by the middle of it, it was like, wow. There was some things that were exposed there that were on a different level to a different degree. That, you know, we saw glimpses of. But didn't know to the depth of some of the stuff that was there. So, for me, that was... I would say this. It was disheartening and convicting at the same time.

Lee Stephenson: Unpack that.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah. Disheartening in man, it's like that sucks that that's the Church. "Big C." That that happened. And I still would say that I think that Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill changed the landscape of evangelicalism. And definitely church planting. And theology. And, you know, there's so many things that the impact was so positive. But then to see what was happening behind the scenes that was so destructive. So that's what was disheartening. The convicting part of it is that a lot of it did focus on the mishaps of you know, or the, the sin of Mark and the pride. And seeing some of those same tendencies in myself and of other leaders. Like how easy it is that when you have some success, or when some good things are happening, that it can get so twisted so quickly. And that you want to do everything you can to hold on to power. So, it helped. It was convicting in that sense. And convicting in the sense that even as I work with other church planters, some of the characteristics that made Mark successful are what I'm looking for in other church planters. And yet, it's the double-edged sword, which those are the things that can create the most amount of impact and the most amount of destruction. So, yeah, how about you? Yeah, give me a little bit of your emotional if you will, as you're listening through it type of thing.

Lee Stephenson: I appreciated it for several reasons. I think similar reasons that you've already pointed out. I think it's sobering from the standpoint it reminds us as leaders that there's always a dark side to our leadership style. And it's important for us to understand that. To be in tune with that. To be repentive of that. Or else this is where we can find ourselves. And I really appreciated the overall journalism and the depth of the journalism that Christianity Today did in exploring the conversations, bringing in past both employees and church members, and allowing them to speak freely. There's no doubt that there is pain. And I think it's important for us to recognize that as pastors whatever position of pastoral ministry you're in, if you're if you're a church planter, or a lead pastor, or a youth pastor, you're put in a position of influence. And we have to learn to steward the influence that God has allowed us to have very, very carefully. Or else we can find ourselves in trouble. And we've got to avoid pride. Leading the way we've got to avoid the narcissistic tendencies that we can find ourselves in. Because if we don't, not only is it longterm, create a damaging effect to our ministry, it damages individuals. And can taint their perspective, not only of the church, but taint their perspective of God. And I think we need to own that. And we need to be careful of that. And so, I appreciated the fact of how they pointed that out. There were moments that honestly, I cringed. Both because I'm like, "Oh, I can't believe that was actually going on behind the scenes." And then also wrestling with is it appropriate for us to air all the dirty laundry out there? So, there was this "both and" tension that I wrestled with. And I'm not gonna bash Christianity Today on that, because I think they honestly, were wrestling with that too. Like, what do we say? What do we not say? What's helpful for the long term, direction trajectory where the church and church planting is going? What isn't helpful? And so, I think they probably wrestled with that as well. Because I felt like throughout the podcast, I sensed some of that wrestle.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah. One of the things that was most interesting for me is how many conversations I had actually with just churched people. So not ministry people. That it actually trickled way down. It wasn't just a bunch of pastors and church planters listening to it, but church people. Now, a little bit of my fear will be that all the sudden, the pendulum swings to the other side. There's so much fear of strong leadership, that, you know, like, let's throw leadership out completely. Like there's no place now for leadership there. Because, of course, people that have been hurt by the church in the past or have been hurt because of, you know, a specific lead pastor. Then also, it's like, "Hey, see!" And, you know, you get that kind of as the poster child and the example. Look what happened at Mars Hill, you know, type of thing that way. But to me, it's, you know, I'm hoping that it will stir healthy conversations. You know, you mentioned, you know, airing the dirty laundry. You know, some closer friends in Acts 29. For them, their perspective was like, "Oh, man, there's so much... Like, why did we have to air all of that and not focus on all the positive that, you know, that came out of it?" Which that I understand. You know, I mean, that would be really hard if it was like, that's your own family. Your own family's like, "Oh, yeah, well, remember, when you were five years old, and you did this? Or remember when you were in middle school, and you did this?" It's like, "Okay, that's in the past. Time to move on. We're a different group. We're a different organization." So, I think for them, it was interesting to hear a lot of their perspective on it. While we're all like, holy cow, that's, you know, that's crazy that that was happening. And maybe there's a little weird sinfulness in us that makes us feel better when we hear the junk that happens behind the successful ministry. Maybe I walked away just saying, we are all so messed up. We're messed up pastors. Messed up churches. Messed up boards. Messed up church members. Like it's a miracle that the church completely survives, you know.

Lee Stephenson: Absolutely. And I mean, I've always had this edge. And this kind of just brought it to another level from the standpoint of the dangers of celebrity pastors.

Danny Parmelee: Oh, yeah. Yep.

Lee Stephenson: I just wrestled from that from a pure theological standpoint. You know, where even Paul talks about that it's in my weakness that he is made strong. And for some reason... This would be a doctoral dissertation. You know, it's like, what has gone on in the church that's created a culture that pastors feel like they have to be a celebrity in order to have a successful ministry? Versus the flip flop of actually going, "You know what, I'm going to push against that. And I'm going to say, man, I'm on the journey. I'm trying to figure this out. And here's the weaknesses I struggle with. But I can tell you Jesus is... He's real. And he's walking me through this now and he'll meet you right where you're at." And I think we've got to come back to that. From a pure pastoral heart of why are we doing ministry in the first place? It's not so that I can buy the newest and latest $2,000 pair of sneakers and wear those on stage. Right? That should not be our goal. Our goal is to help people come to follow Jesus, first of all. And then walk with Jesus long term so that they have great impact in the world.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, and I mean, it's hard because it's part of not even church culture, but it's part of culture now. I mean, even the amount of kids are, what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be an influencer. I want to be on YouTube, Instagram. I want to do that. And so now it's like, oh, well, still want to do that and my area of influence is ministry. And so, I think we're going to see some more of it. We continue to see news of celebrity pastors kind of falling. And maybe it's always been the case. And we just now because of social media and communication, we're seeing it a lot more. But I'd argue that man is just so ingrained with culture. I'm wondering at what point that whole culture crashes. And we do return to more words like, hey, the pastor is a person you go to in need. Not the pastor is the person who has the most Instagram followers.

Lee Stephenson: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that point was kind of being made throughout the podcast. And so, I appreciated their attempt to point out those flaws of sometimes I think we're pursuing the wrong thing when we go into ministry. Or maybe we started with pure intentions and somewhere, we begin to buy into the lie around us thinking that we're more important than we really are. And I think that's the thing we've got to hold on to. And the podcast illustrated this well is that God gives influence, but God can take influence any moment he wants to as well. And not only they'd point that out from a Mark Driscoll standpoint, but I did appreciate the fact of how they brought in other instances from around the world of where pastors got off. And maybe they again, started with pure intentions, but at some point, they began to believe that they're more important than they really are.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, it's good stuff.

Lee Stephenson: Good stuff. And what would you say to those that have not actually listened to the podcast, Danny?

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, I'd say give it a listen. I say give it a listen. It'll just help you. And yeah, as you listen to it ask God to convict you of that. And, you know, and be open and to learn from the mistakes of some other leaders.

Lee Stephenson: And if you disagree with our perspective, feel free to email Danny at "Danny@." I think it's a journey that we've got to wrestle with. And I think it'll be something that we continue to wrestle with. And so, stay focused, those that are listening. And stay pure in your intentions. Praying for all of you. And thanks again for tuning in to the Unfiltered podcast. Until next time, keep it real.