Charlie Cotherman, the pastor of Oil City Vineyard Church, joins Dan Hummel for an overview of non-traditional religious educational institutions.

Learn about Charlie Cotherman & Oil City Vineyard Church

Read Charlie's Book: To Think Christianly: A History of L'Abri, Regent College, and the Christian Study Center Movement

With Faith in Mind is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin and hosted by Director of University Engagement Dan Hummel and Executive Director John Terrill. Jesse Koopman is the Executive Producer. Upper House is an initiative of the Stephen & Laurel Brown Foundation.

Please reach out to us with comments or questions at podcast@slbrownfoundation.org. We'd love to hear from you.

00;00;07;24 - 00;00;09;25

Hello and welcome to With Faith in Mind.

00;00;09;25 - 00;00;11;17

I'm Dan Hummel, today's host

00;00;11;17 - 00;00;14;26

and I'm also the director of university

engagement at Upper House.

00;00;15;16 - 00;00;19;17

Today we're exploring the recent past and

near future of late Christian education.

00;00;20;03 - 00;00;24;11

Those educational settings outside,

but often adjacent to the institutional

00;00;24;11 - 00;00;27;26

structures of colleges and universities

and churches and seminaries.

00;00;28;18 - 00;00;31;22

Part of our series on Christian Education

at the Crossroads.

00;00;32;09 - 00;00;34;00

And in this episode, we welcome Dr.

00;00;34;00 - 00;00;35;25

Charlie Cotherman to the show.

00;00;35;25 - 00;00;36;19

Hi, Charlie.

00;00;36;19 - 00;00;39;08

Hey, it's

good to be with you. Glad to be here.

00;00;39;08 - 00;00;39;22

Excellent.

00;00;39;22 - 00;00;41;21

I'm really excited to talk to you.

00;00;41;21 - 00;00;44;29

I want to introduce you quickly

before we jump into the conversation.

00;00;46;02 - 00;00;49;15

Charlie is probably first

and foremost the pastor

00;00;49;15 - 00;00;53;06

at Oil City Vineyard,

a church in Oil City, Pennsylvania.

00;00;53;25 - 00;00;54;26

He got his Ph.D.

00;00;54;26 - 00;00;57;17

from the University of Virginia

in religious studies,

00;00;57;17 - 00;01;00;29

and he's the author of Two

Think Christian Lee A History of Liberty

00;01;00;29 - 00;01;04;27

Region College and the Christian Studies

Center Movement, a book of particular

00;01;04;27 - 00;01;07;27

interest to us here at Upper House

since we're a Christian Studies Center.

00;01;08;16 - 00;01;11;19

And Charlie is also the program director

at the Project

00;01;11;19 - 00;01;15;11

on Rural Ministry,

which is at Grove City College.

00;01;16;14 - 00;01;17;08

Charlie, there's one

00;01;17;08 - 00;01;20;08

other thing

I wanted to mention with your biography

00;01;20;08 - 00;01;23;22

that came out in looking up

your Pastor page

00;01;24;05 - 00;01;27;13

at Oil City Vineyard, and it says that

at some point in your life

00;01;27;14 - 00;01;30;25

you had a horribly failed run

at being a punk rock star.

00;01;31;15 - 00;01;34;07

And as someone who's a fan of punk rock,

I want to know

00;01;34;07 - 00;01;35;16

is there a short version of that story

00;01;35;16 - 00;01;37;24

or is that a very long

and complicated story?

00;01;37;24 - 00;01;40;00

No, we tried real hard. We had a band.

00;01;40;00 - 00;01;41;03

We tried real hard. Right.

00;01;41;03 - 00;01;43;21

And and eventually we realized that

00;01;43;21 - 00;01;45;16

well, especially when our lead singer

found a girlfriend

00;01;45;16 - 00;01;48;21

and decided he was done, that it was just

time to do something else.

00;01;49;18 - 00;01;52;16

Well, if I can ask what years was like?

00;01;52;16 - 00;01;54;11

What year? Eight?

00;01;54;11 - 00;01;55;10

I was probably okay.

00;01;55;10 - 00;01;58;10

I'd say to tell people

I had a quarter life crisis when I was 25.

00;01;58;16 - 00;02;01;14

And, you know,

so hopefully I won't have a midlife one.

00;02;02;13 - 00;02;03;00

That's right.

00;02;03;00 - 00;02;03;17

Okay.

00;02;03;17 - 00;02;05;27

Well, thinking

I mean, I'm a I'm a connoisseur, I guess.

00;02;05;27 - 00;02;08;24

00;02;08;24 - 00;02;12;19

So it was that was the high point of

it was sort of a golden age

00;02;12;19 - 00;02;14;01

of a certain type of punk rock, at least.

00;02;14;01 - 00;02;18;27

So I think a lot of us of that age

probably I guess you're a little older,

00;02;18;27 - 00;02;23;02

but it was definitely the water,

sort of the the fall out. Boy.

00;02;23;03 - 00;02;25;12

Yeah,

that pop punk band is pop punk stuff.

00;02;25;12 - 00;02;25;21

Yeah. Yeah.

00;02;25;21 - 00;02;28;21

We did some Fall Boy

covers. Yeah, for sure.

00;02;28;21 - 00;02;29;29

That's right. All right.

00;02;29;29 - 00;02;30;11

Awesome.

00;02;30;11 - 00;02;33;25

Well, hopefully,

I don't think that'll come up again

00;02;33;25 - 00;02;36;25

in our conversation,

but good to know anyway.

00;02;37;18 - 00;02;40;08

Okay, so, Charlie, I'm.

00;02;40;08 - 00;02;41;22

We've.

00;02;41;22 - 00;02;43;12

We've known each other here

for a couple of years.

00;02;43;12 - 00;02;46;09

A few years ago, we were able to write

at the beginning of COVID.

00;02;46;09 - 00;02;49;23

Actually, I'm able to talk about your book

00;02;50;24 - 00;02;53;25

to think Christian Lee here at Upper House

00;02;53;25 - 00;02;57;15

and then also with a broader

study center audience.

00;02;57;15 - 00;03;01;19

And so I just grew to appreciate

your perspective on the history

00;03;02;00 - 00;03;04;21

of the sort of institutions

00;03;04;21 - 00;03;08;09

that sit next to universities but aren't

usually affiliated with them, though.

00;03;08;09 - 00;03;12;11

Are there a few that become affiliated

and are really striving

00;03;12;11 - 00;03;18;21

to offer educational life of the mind type

opportunities for students while

00;03;18;21 - 00;03;22;17

also supporting those students in the work

they're doing at these universities?

00;03;22;17 - 00;03;25;17

And so as we're thinking

about Christian education

00;03;25;19 - 00;03;28;19

in this series, we're trying to think

very broadly and trying to make sure

00;03;28;28 - 00;03;33;02

we don't just go into the usual patterns

of thinking of sort of institutions

00;03;33;02 - 00;03;36;18

like colleges and seminaries,

but also all of the types

00;03;36;18 - 00;03;40;15

of other types of institutions

that also offer Christian education.

00;03;40;18 - 00;03;41;18

Mm hmm.

00;03;41;18 - 00;03;42;26

So that will be where we go.

00;03;42;26 - 00;03;46;05

I did want to start with a slightly

more personal question, asking

00;03;46;05 - 00;03;50;03

where your passions came from

for studying what you studied,

00;03;51;13 - 00;03;53;29

sort of

this history of the study center movement.

00;03;53;29 - 00;03;57;11

And then also you have a strong passion

for rural ministry.

00;03;57;11 - 00;03;58;04

And those might

00;03;58;04 - 00;04;02;11

look at it sort of different sectors

that don't overlap a lot on paper.

00;04;02;11 - 00;04;03;17

But I wonder if you could just

00;04;03;17 - 00;04;06;25

weave us a story

for how those things connect to you.

00;04;07;09 - 00;04;11;04

Yeah, you know, I,

I think it's a lot of personal history.

00;04;11;04 - 00;04;14;07

I am a person who believes that, like,

you know,

00;04;14;28 - 00;04;16;03

the sovereignty of God

00;04;16;03 - 00;04;18;27

works its way out in our lives

in all kinds of different ways.

00;04;18;27 - 00;04;20;15

And so

00;04;20;15 - 00;04;25;01

I like to to take into account

just the kind of places he puts us.

00;04;25;01 - 00;04;27;09

So I happen to have been born and lived

00;04;27;09 - 00;04;29;08

most of my life

in rural western Pennsylvania.

00;04;29;08 - 00;04;32;08

And I, I think maybe God had a reason

for putting me here.

00;04;32;08 - 00;04;33;07

And I'm trying to

00;04;33;07 - 00;04;36;18

be faithful in this place and

to this group of people that I call my,

00;04;37;04 - 00;04;37;29

you know, my own.

00;04;37;29 - 00;04;40;27

That's mine

from childhood, you know, I inherited

00;04;41;29 - 00;04;45;01

and then the study of evangelicalism

and the study center movement,

00;04;45;02 - 00;04;48;14

it really was kind of a multistep thing,

but it was still out of that personal

00;04;48;14 - 00;04;50;16

kind of I was in seminary.

00;04;50;16 - 00;04;52;17

I was thinking about going into a Ph.D.

00;04;52;17 - 00;04;56;11

program and I was working with

my advisor was Scott Sundquist,

00;04;56;11 - 00;04;58;05

and we were kind of talking

about evangelicalism.

00;04;58;05 - 00;05;00;17

And I realized

00;05;00;17 - 00;05;03;21

that I spoke the language

of evangelicalism as an insider.

00;05;03;28 - 00;05;05;29

Like this was like

I grew up listening to Dobson.

00;05;05;29 - 00;05;09;05

And so I started studying evangelicalism,

but I also kind of had

00;05;09;05 - 00;05;12;05

this persistent kind of

00;05;13;02 - 00;05;14;22

story in my life where

00;05;14;22 - 00;05;17;29

most of the evangelicalism

I knew was pretty anti-intellectual.

00;05;18;05 - 00;05;21;15

And so I was always interested

00;05;21;15 - 00;05;24;15

in evangelicals

who were really trying to think well.

00;05;24;19 - 00;05;27;11

And so kind of through a series of twists

and turns,

00;05;27;11 - 00;05;30;24

you know, I ran into Francis Schafer,

and I was interested in his later life,

00;05;30;24 - 00;05;33;14

which was kind of political,

but also his early career

00;05;33;14 - 00;05;37;06

and really the whole of his career,

which he did care about these questions.

00;05;37;20 - 00;05;39;22

And then I happened to be

at the University of Virginia.

00;05;39;22 - 00;05;41;11

You can't avoid the study center there.

00;05;41;11 - 00;05;43;04

And so I was like, this is so fascinating.

00;05;43;04 - 00;05;45;18

Look at all

these evangelicals trying to think, well.

00;05;46;29 - 00;05;48;07

And so as I dug into that, I

00;05;48;07 - 00;05;51;09

realized this other history I'm studying

and this history comes together.

00;05;51;09 - 00;05;54;16

So it was kind of a perfect fit

to just jump right in.

00;05;55;12 - 00;05;56;07

That's fascinating.

00;05;56;07 - 00;05;59;08

Well, I think those things will come

through as we talk about

00;06;00;08 - 00;06;01;08

particularly the history here.

00;06;01;08 - 00;06;05;04

So I want to jump to the history

and I'm thinking of our listeners

00;06;05;04 - 00;06;08;04

and trying to give a slightly

broader weave.

00;06;08;11 - 00;06;10;01

We actually talked to Doug Strong.

00;06;10;01 - 00;06;11;10

He's going to be on

00;06;11;10 - 00;06;15;09

another one of the episodes, and he's

a historian of the Sunday school movement

00;06;15;09 - 00;06;16;12

that goes all the way back

00;06;16;12 - 00;06;20;06

to the 19th century

and even before he reads it in there.

00;06;20;06 - 00;06;23;19

So we're going to have a slightly shorter

timeline here to talk about.

00;06;23;19 - 00;06;27;25

But thinking about the last you know,

we talk about the postwar period,

00;06;27;25 - 00;06;29;26

the period after World War Two, Right.

00;06;29;26 - 00;06;32;05

The last 70 or so years.

00;06;32;05 - 00;06;35;14

You know, one of the things that struck

me as I was thinking about

00;06;36;16 - 00;06;39;10

the study center movement is

that a lot of it and you talk about this

00;06;39;10 - 00;06;42;26

in your book, a lot of it

does trace back to that postwar period.

00;06;42;26 - 00;06;45;26

00;06;45;28 - 00;06;50;20

If we could go back to that period

in our minds here,

00;06;51;02 - 00;06;55;18

what would Christian education

look like at that point?

00;06;55;18 - 00;06;59;14

And what I'm trying to get a sense of is

what were the conditions

00;06;59;22 - 00;07;04;22

for which a lot of these new types

of experimental institutions

00;07;04;22 - 00;07;07;24

like study centers emerged out of

what was the sort of context

00;07;07;24 - 00;07;10;03

and what was the need

that they were rising to meet?

00;07;10;03 - 00;07;13;09

Yeah, it's a great question because

obviously nothing happens in a vacuum.

00;07;13;09 - 00;07;17;08

And so when you think about that postwar

period in Christian education,

00;07;17;08 - 00;07;21;09

you have to almost like have as a context

the kind of fundamentalist

00;07;21;09 - 00;07;24;28

modernist controversy that happened before

and this kind of sense of,

00;07;25;15 - 00;07;29;08

you know, circling the wagons,

creating our own institutions,

00;07;29;08 - 00;07;31;11

the fundamentalists

creating their own institutions.

00;07;31;11 - 00;07;35;28

Bible study, I mean, Bible institute

movement just growing by leaps and bounds.

00;07;35;28 - 00;07;39;26

You know, in the thirties,

the Bible Institute movement grew

00;07;39;29 - 00;07;43;26

so much as the Christian undergrad

colleges.

00;07;44;11 - 00;07;49;17

Places like even Grove City just had such

increased enrollment during those years.

00;07;50;06 - 00;07;53;27

So there is this push for Bible institutes

and even Christian

00;07;53;27 - 00;07;57;09

liberal arts schools heading into

then obviously the GI Bill and stuff.

00;07;57;09 - 00;08;00;11

Every higher ed institution

in the United States is gaining

00;08;00;11 - 00;08;03;22

students and Christian universities

and colleges are there too.

00;08;04;19 - 00;08;08;13

So you have this liberal arts

kind of college thing happening

00;08;08;13 - 00;08;11;13

that's being buoyed up by the GI Bill

and all that.

00;08;11;25 - 00;08;15;03

But as far as theological education goes,

00;08;16;04 - 00;08;17;12

you know, there's a

00;08;17;12 - 00;08;21;21

there's a group of neo evangelicals

led by people like Harold Washington,

00;08;22;07 - 00;08;25;24

and they start trying

to kind of regain this.

00;08;25;24 - 00;08;30;26

What they sense is this lost status

in society, this lost cultural voice.

00;08;30;26 - 00;08;34;06

And so, you know,

00;08;34;06 - 00;08;37;00

but then shortly thereafter

you have fuller in 47.

00;08;37;00 - 00;08;39;17

So you have this kind of like,

00;08;39;17 - 00;08;42;17

you know, professional clergy training

00;08;43;02 - 00;08;45;23

that they're trying to be like,

00;08;45;23 - 00;08;49;11

you know, model themselves after Princeton

to be an evangelical, Princeton, so on.

00;08;49;13 - 00;08;52;21

For clergy,

you have this kind of renewed push,

00;08;53;04 - 00;08;55;27

you know, and then you start

thinking about Trinity coming along

00;08;55;27 - 00;08;59;05

and Gordon Cornwell in the late

sixties, you know, so there's a push for,

00;08;59;24 - 00;09;04;14

you know, evangelical clerical training

that's that's top notch.

00;09;05;08 - 00;09;07;19

But but the laity,

00;09;07;19 - 00;09;10;16

there's not a lot for them

until some of these movements come along.

00;09;11;26 - 00;09;12;14

That's interesting.

00;09;12;14 - 00;09;15;19

So you're narrating sort of the

the way that

00;09;16;08 - 00;09;18;23

if we go back

to the fundamentalist movement,

00;09;18;23 - 00;09;21;17

a lot of Christians

who were more conservative theologically

00;09;21;17 - 00;09;26;04

sort of pull out of their denominations

and pull out of the seminaries

00;09;26;04 - 00;09;28;25

and the missions agencies

that had been a part of

00;09;28;25 - 00;09;32;25

and they build their own institutions

that and I think this is where

00;09;32;25 - 00;09;34;14

that your comment about

00;09;34;14 - 00;09;37;00

some of the organizations you grew up in

were anti-intellectual.

00;09;37;00 - 00;09;40;04

That was part of that pulling out

was actually pulling out

00;09;40;04 - 00;09;43;13

of the intellectual conversations

that were happening in those spaces.

00;09;43;23 - 00;09;48;10

And so by the time we get to the fifties,

there's a new set of institutions.

00;09;48;10 - 00;09;53;03

You mentioned sort of Fuller Seminary

and then later some other ones come along

00;09;54;06 - 00;09;56;20

that basically are in some ways

00;09;56;20 - 00;09;59;24

starting over

or trying to think about how this new

00;10;01;06 - 00;10;04;06

institutional context

where they're not connected to these older

00;10;04;19 - 00;10;06;21

seminaries and colleges,

00;10;06;21 - 00;10;09;21

how do they reconnect

with some of those bigger conversations,

00;10;09;27 - 00;10;13;14

those bigger

intellectual concerns, questions

00;10;13;14 - 00;10;18;10

in theology, in biblical studies,

but also in in other sectors.

00;10;18;14 - 00;10;19;20

Does that sound about right?

00;10;19;20 - 00;10;22;20

Yeah,

And I think the big distinction, too, is,

00;10;22;23 - 00;10;25;04

you know, if you think about places

like Moody Bible Institute,

00;10;25;04 - 00;10;28;04

like their goal was the evangelization

of the world, right?

00;10;28;04 - 00;10;31;04

So they're trying to train evangelists.

00;10;31;14 - 00;10;34;06

They're not thinking about top tier

academics.

00;10;34;06 - 00;10;37;01

Now, when talking gay and fuller.

00;10;37;01 - 00;10;40;02

And then eventually Billy

Graham got involved in Fuller Seminary.

00;10;40;02 - 00;10;42;04

I mean, I think it's pretty clear

at the beginning he's

00;10;42;04 - 00;10;46;04

trying to create, like the Caltech of the

theological education world,

00;10;46;17 - 00;10;48;21

you know,

So now they're setting their sights on

00;10;48;21 - 00;10;51;28

something different where they're saying,

we want to think really, really well

00;10;52;16 - 00;10;53;20

and be people of faith.

00;10;54;23 - 00;10;55;08

That's right.

00;10;55;08 - 00;10;57;04

Yeah. That that's very interesting.

00;10;57;04 - 00;10;59;06

So so we have that happening.

00;10;59;06 - 00;11;02;16

And those Christian colleges,

many laypeople are going into those.

00;11;04;16 - 00;11;06;22

I think of you know,

you have your classic ones, too,

00;11;06;22 - 00;11;09;22

like Wheaton College

is growing at this time as well.

00;11;10;15 - 00;11;13;06

You start talking in your research

00;11;13;06 - 00;11;16;17

about these two particular strands

that are really important.

00;11;17;00 - 00;11;20;14

One of them is L'Abri

and the other one is Region College.

00;11;20;14 - 00;11;22;27

So let's start with L’Abri

and you mentioned Francis Schaeffer.

00;11;22;27 - 00;11;28;00

He's this important sort of intellectual

00;11;28;00 - 00;11;29;26

But give us a sense of of ,

00;11;29;26 - 00;11;32;11

which is totally different

than a Christian college, by the way.

00;11;32;11 - 00;11;34;17

But give us a sense

of what was going on there.

00;11;34;17 - 00;11;39;03

What was Liberace's sort of origin story

and what what what was it trying to do?

00;11;39;16 - 00;11;43;09

Yeah, so Francis and is Schaefer

and it's hard to think of them apart

00;11;43;09 - 00;11;46;15

from each other because they really both

formed libraries so much.

00;11;47;27 - 00;11;48;23

Francis

00;11;48;23 - 00;11;52;02

Schaefer was a pastor first and foremost

and really always was a pastor.

00;11;52;02 - 00;11;55;04

He was never an actual academic

in any sense,

00;11;55;28 - 00;12;00;21

but they were really,

really thoughtful, really capable.

00;12;00;21 - 00;12;03;05

And so they have a lot of success

in America.

00;12;03;05 - 00;12;06;04

And the pastor, they go bigger, bigger

churches, bigger, bigger cities,

00;12;06;04 - 00;12;09;17

and eventually they become known as

these people that work well with children.

00;12;09;17 - 00;12;12;19

So actually their denomination

00;12;12;19 - 00;12;15;18

in the postwar

Europe, to go and work with children.

00;12;15;24 - 00;12;18;24

And while they're over there, he meets

00;12;19;07 - 00;12;22;14

people like the art historian Hans

Macker and and,

00;12;22;14 - 00;12;26;09

you know,

he starts in Europe does for Schaefer.

00;12;26;09 - 00;12;28;25

It transforms him into this like person.

00;12;28;25 - 00;12;32;02

He's always had liked art, but in Europe,

he can go to all the museums.

00;12;32;02 - 00;12;34;20

And so he starts thinking,

Well, Europe's ahead

00;12;34;20 - 00;12;36;19

when it comes to existentialism

and stuff like that.

00;12;36;19 - 00;12;40;16

So he's in all these conversations

and and he really finds a home there

00;12;40;16 - 00;12;42;23

after he kind of goes

through his own crisis of faith.

00;12;42;23 - 00;12;44;18

And then he comes out on the other side.

00;12;44;18 - 00;12;49;04

And what they decide together

is that they need to just make their house

00;12;50;06 - 00;12;51;12

basically their mission field.

00;12;51;12 - 00;12;54;13

And they're sending agency

doesn't like it.

00;12;54;13 - 00;12;55;19

They actually cut off funds.

00;12;55;19 - 00;13;00;06

missionaries with just a prayer list

00;13;00;28 - 00;13;04;20

for support,

they start library, which means a shelter.

00;13;05;09 - 00;13;08;17

And they decide they designed as a place

where anyone can come

00;13;08;17 - 00;13;10;09

with their questions for coffee

and a meal.

00;13;10;09 - 00;13;11;12

And that's what it really is.

00;13;11;12 - 00;13;14;03

For decades.

00;13;14;03 - 00;13;17;02

And that's so that should sound

really familiar to someone like me

00;13;17;02 - 00;13;18;19

who's running a study center now.

00;13;18;19 - 00;13;21;21

It's a right open space

where people have coffee. They

00;13;22;24 - 00;13;25;12

they do

bring their intellectual questions,

00;13;25;12 - 00;13;28;12

but they also just bring sort of life

questions into the space.

00;13;28;22 - 00;13;32;27

What's it like to be a 20 year old in,

you know, and dealing with those issues?

00;13;32;27 - 00;13;37;05

So obvious connection to

of course, there's a lot of twists

00;13;37;05 - 00;13;38;26

and turns of the story,

but obvious inspiration

00;13;38;26 - 00;13;42;16

for the study centers

which emerge much later.

00;13;42;16 - 00;13;43;02

Right.

00;13;43;02 - 00;13;46;20

And many people, many of the people in the

study center movement find their way

00;13;46;20 - 00;13;50;21

to Switzerland, to Waymo, Switzerland

and to library at some point.

00;13;50;21 - 00;13;54;10

So there is this kind of like net worth

growing through,

00;13;54;10 - 00;13;57;10

especially the late sixties

and early seventies.

00;13;57;12 - 00;13;57;29

Yeah, that's right.

00;13;57;29 - 00;14;00;15

And I actually think

of a couple of people on our staff

00;14;00;15 - 00;14;04;09

who either went to library,

the original one or libraries

00;14;04;09 - 00;14;07;17

now has, you know, camps

all over the world and has gone there.

00;14;07;26 - 00;14;12;12

Can you talk just briefly about

I think of someone on our staff, Cam

00;14;12;12 - 00;14;16;05

Anderson, who's our associate director,

who cites L’Abri or Seitz, Schaefer

00;14;16;15 - 00;14;20;18

and as a major inspiration

for why he became an artist.

00;14;21;01 - 00;14;23;16

00;14;23;16 - 00;14;27;18

Can you just talk briefly

about Schaefer's vision for how

00;14;28;25 - 00;14;31;19

things that

maybe that anti-intellectual tradition

00;14;31;19 - 00;14;35;21

in evangelicalism pushed away

things like art

00;14;35;21 - 00;14;40;17

and sort of literature and history

and how Schaefer saw those things

00;14;41;06 - 00;14;44;08

connecting with the Bible

and with Christian faith.

00;14;44;25 - 00;14;45;07

Yeah.

00;14;45;07 - 00;14;49;19

So I can't think about this without

thinking of Abraham Kuyper, though.

00;14;49;19 - 00;14;53;21

Schaefer wasn't, you know,

a huge type parent, but in a sense,

00;14;54;02 - 00;14;57;08

I mean, that sense that it's all Jesus is,

right?

00;14;57;18 - 00;14;58;24

Schaefer modeled that,

00;14;58;24 - 00;15;02;22

and he he was able to communicate

that all of life matters to God.

00;15;03;11 - 00;15;06;06

And if you talk to people

and you listen to their stories

00;15;06;06 - 00;15;08;09

and you read what they wrote

from that period,

00;15;08;09 - 00;15;11;07

that was one of the main things

they got from Woodbury.

00;15;11;07 - 00;15;13;22

They, they, they sense love.

00;15;13;22 - 00;15;17;07

They sensed answers to prayer,

and they sense that all of life mattered,

00;15;17;22 - 00;15;20;22

including your mind, including culture,

including art.

00;15;20;25 - 00;15;25;20

And Schaefer was really was

one of the first prominent evangelicals,

00;15;26;06 - 00;15;28;29

even you might say

prominent fundamentalists

00;15;28;29 - 00;15;32;14

to to say art matters

enough to talk about it.

00;15;32;18 - 00;15;34;15

We're not just talking about evangelism.

00;15;34;15 - 00;15;35;25

We're not just going to be content

with our,

00;15;35;25 - 00;15;38;10

you know, same picture

everyone has in their Church of Jesus that

00;15;38;10 - 00;15;42;09

looks like a Swedish model or something

like, we're going to dig into art.

00;15;42;17 - 00;15;45;14

We're going to actually ask hard questions

00;15;45;14 - 00;15;48;21

and look at art

and appreciate that God uses it.

00;15;50;09 - 00;15;51;04

And that was true for all.

00;15;51;04 - 00;15;51;18

That's great.

00;15;51;18 - 00;15;55;07

So whether you were, you know,

wanted to be a pastor or an academic or,

00;15;55;19 - 00;15;58;19

you know, a writer or an artist, Schaefer

00;15;59;03 - 00;16;02;05

really believed that it all mattered.

00;16;02;20 - 00;16;03;01

Right.

00;16;03;01 - 00;16;06;01

And there's a whole generation of

of those what this the professions

00;16;06;01 - 00;16;09;13

you just listed of Christians

who would point to Schaefer

00;16;09;13 - 00;16;13;05

as a major inspiration

for them to go into those fields.

00;16;14;01 - 00;16;14;08

Okay.

00;16;14;08 - 00;16;17;09

So that's one really interesting

development

00;16;17;09 - 00;16;20;10

in the postwar period

is this L’Abri House model.

00;16;20;10 - 00;16;23;17

And you can see how the study centers

today are a version of that, though

00;16;24;23 - 00;16;27;23

there's not a direct line, but

there's definitely an indirect line there.

00;16;27;23 - 00;16;28;19

Actually, there is a direct line.

00;16;28;19 - 00;16;31;17

You mentioned that a lot of the study

center leaders

00;16;31;17 - 00;16;34;17

found their calling through places

like .

00;16;35;01 - 00;16;39;01

There's another strand you look at

and it's just as interesting,

00;16;39;01 - 00;16;43;26

I think, which is Region College,

a college that is still very active

00;16;44;22 - 00;16;46;26

and vibrant in Vancouver.

00;16;46;26 - 00;16;50;20

Tell us about the founding of that and

what the vision was behind region College.

00;16;51;01 - 00;16;56;00

Yeah, so Region

starts with the vision of a Plymouth

00;16;56;00 - 00;16;59;25

Brethren shoe merchant named Marshall

Marshall Shepherd in Vancouver

00;17;00;09 - 00;17;05;07

and and a brother

and community in Vancouver that was open.

00;17;05;07 - 00;17;06;18

They were the open brothers.

00;17;06;18 - 00;17;08;14

And so they were willing

to work with others

00;17;08;14 - 00;17;11;22

because some Plymouth brethren

are very much sectarian.

00;17;12;04 - 00;17;14;29

But in Vancouver,

this community was pretty affluent.

00;17;14;29 - 00;17;17;07

They were also they they were thoughtful.

00;17;17;07 - 00;17;19;05

They were open to working with others.

00;17;19;05 - 00;17;21;09

And so as they started talking,

they started to realize

00;17;21;09 - 00;17;24;25

that their children

were part of this post-World War two

00;17;25;17 - 00;17;28;11

were experiencing this growth

in education, and they were going

00;17;28;11 - 00;17;31;11

to probably want pastors

who were also educated.

00;17;31;14 - 00;17;32;09

The only problem

00;17;32;09 - 00;17;35;20

was that Plymouth brethren didn't ordain

actual professional clergy,

00;17;36;04 - 00;17;40;08

so they had to figure out how to help

their clergy get more education

00;17;40;15 - 00;17;43;24

while still emphasizing lay clergy.

00;17;44;06 - 00;17;48;09

And so what came out of that was this

vision for Regent College, which, though

00;17;48;09 - 00;17;52;20

it had from the beginning conversations

about professional clergy tracks.

00;17;52;20 - 00;17;57;20

Really the main stream of conversation

was sort of lay theological education.

00;17;57;20 - 00;18;00;22

A graduate lay theological education

00;18;00;25 - 00;18;03;05

that could come in a one year

diploma for people

00;18;03;05 - 00;18;06;24

that were going into the workforce

and just had a year kind of gap year.

00;18;07;07 - 00;18;11;13

Or it could come in a three year degree

that many would compare to professional

00;18;12;05 - 00;18;15;05

bachelor divinity, which is what

it was back then, or Master Divinity.

00;18;15;14 - 00;18;17;28

But it was for laypeople.

00;18;17;28 - 00;18;19;03

Mm hmm.

00;18;19;03 - 00;18;21;10

And it's it's interesting.

00;18;21;10 - 00;18;24;05

We actually have a pastor at my church

who went to Regent.

00;18;24;05 - 00;18;25;24

So it's interesting how they've expanded.

00;18;25;24 - 00;18;30;15

And many clergy are also,

you know, region graduates as well.

00;18;30;22 - 00;18;33;22

But that that core vision

as that interesting vision, it's one that

00;18;33;25 - 00;18;37;26

the lay vision is what inspires us here

at Upper House two, which is that

00;18;38;07 - 00;18;41;07

theological education

isn't just for clergy.

00;18;41;18 - 00;18;42;08

Mm hmm.

00;18;42;08 - 00;18;46;15

It can actually be very useful

for people who are engineers or

00;18;46;15 - 00;18;51;02

or lawyers or business like business

owners or anything like that.

00;18;52;11 - 00;18;55;11

One one thing that you highlight in

00;18;55;13 - 00;18;58;13

both of these stories, LaBrie

and Region College,

00;18;58;18 - 00;19;04;13

is how there was a little more space

for women to obtain theological education.

00;19;04;13 - 00;19;08;11

Can you just talk a little about

about that and why that was the case?

00;19;08;19 - 00;19;12;24

Yeah, I think that's

one of the really cool parts of this story

00;19;13;28 - 00;19;19;00

is how, you know, because Schaefer,

for the entirety of his life,

00;19;19;00 - 00;19;22;00

didn't believe in ordaining women,

but he would teach

00;19;22;22 - 00;19;24;26

a whole generation of young women

00;19;24;26 - 00;19;27;26

theology at liberty.

00;19;27;29 - 00;19;30;23

And what happened is because they weren't

00;19;30;23 - 00;19;34;04

ordaining and training ordained clergy,

00;19;35;03 - 00;19;39;02

if it was lay education,

it was open to anyone.

00;19;39;12 - 00;19;43;00

And so male or female,

you had an equal chance

00;19;43;14 - 00;19;45;14

at either of these institutions to learn.

00;19;45;14 - 00;19;50;21

And I think that was a beautiful thing

at that time, because within North

00;19;50;21 - 00;19;55;00

American evangelicalism at that time,

it was not easy to be a woman in seminary.

00;19;55;00 - 00;19;57;11

It was extremely difficult.

00;19;57;11 - 00;20;00;03

You would get called

into the dean's office because of,

00;20;00;03 - 00;20;03;20

you know, your outfit wasn't appropriate

according to their policy.

00;20;03;27 - 00;20;07;06

You know, it was just extremely difficult

to even get in.

00;20;07;06 - 00;20;09;25

You weren't allowed to take preaching

classes here.

00;20;09;25 - 00;20;10;13

It didn't matter.

00;20;10;13 - 00;20;13;05

You were just a learner

along with everyone else.

00;20;13;05 - 00;20;14;18

But you were learning

from some of the best.

00;20;16;19 - 00;20;18;07

Yeah, very interesting.

00;20;18;07 - 00;20;22;10

So we have an openness

and I would say the other

00;20;22;21 - 00;20;26;23

I don't want to diminish how this create

a huge opportunity

00;20;26;23 - 00;20;30;26

for women to learn theology,

but I think just returning to that idea

00;20;30;26 - 00;20;34;06

that theology wasn't just for the clergy,

it wasn't just for the people

00;20;34;06 - 00;20;38;07

who were going to maybe explicitly

use it in their line of work.

00;20;40;15 - 00;20;43;12

It was for the rest of us as well.

00;20;43;12 - 00;20;47;11

And I just want to reiterate

for the readers how interesting it is.

00;20;47;11 - 00;20;49;05

And this is

maybe the historian nerd coming out,

00;20;49;05 - 00;20;52;24

but how interesting it is that

this comes out of this Plymouth brethren,

00;20;52;24 - 00;20;56;09

which is a very small, obscure

00;20;56;09 - 00;21;01;17

to most of us, sect of Protestantism,

that for a variety of reasons,

00;21;01;17 - 00;21;04;20

one of their views is they you just don't

believe in professional clergy.

00;21;05;11 - 00;21;07;00

And so it made no sense

for a seminary, right?

00;21;07;00 - 00;21;09;28

Because that's the

for the professional clergy.

00;21;09;28 - 00;21;13;24

And and of course, most people who go to

Regent are not Plymouth brethren,

00;21;13;27 - 00;21;18;18

nor would they really be sympathetic

to a lot of Plymouth brethren theology.

00;21;18;27 - 00;21;22;28

But it's from that sort of, what would you

call it, an egalitarian, though?

00;21;22;28 - 00;21;24;23

That's the word I'd usually use

with the Plymouth Brethren.

00;21;24;23 - 00;21;27;22

But this egalitarian view of

who should be able to run a church

00;21;27;22 - 00;21;29;08

or who should

be able to teach in a church,

00;21;30;07 - 00;21;31;05

I also think

00;21;31;05 - 00;21;34;05

and try this might be in your book too,

that a lot of the

00;21;34;19 - 00;21;38;05

original vision in Plymouth

Brethren were led by vocational pastors,

00;21;38;05 - 00;21;40;09

so it was people who weren't

professional clergy

00;21;40;09 - 00;21;43;11

in the sense that they got their money

just from a church.

00;21;43;11 - 00;21;49;07

They were a clerk, and then they were also

a pastor on the side.

00;21;49;07 - 00;21;50;20

And so it also didn't make sense to have

00;21;50;20 - 00;21;53;20

this big professional degree

when most of their,

00;21;53;21 - 00;21;57;24

you know, days were spent doing something

else, doing some other profession.

00;21;58;22 - 00;21;59;01

Okay.

00;21;59;01 - 00;22;02;17

So hopefully listeners can see

as we're sort of weaving our way

00;22;02;17 - 00;22;06;20

through some of these innovations

through the postwar period,

00;22;07;05 - 00;22;11;24

how different institutions

are popping up to meet different needs

00;22;11;24 - 00;22;15;20

and to offer different visions

of what it could mean to be educated

00;22;15;28 - 00;22;18;28

as a Christian,

to have a lively life of the mind.

00;22;19;21 - 00;22;23;10

There's so many more examples,

Charlie, in your book,

00;22;23;19 - 00;22;26;19

but I want to just give room here.

00;22;26;24 - 00;22;31;00

Are there any sort of models

or forms of education that sort of come

00;22;31;00 - 00;22;31;28

to front of the mind

00;22;31;28 - 00;22;35;28

of this period beyond the L’Abri model,

the sort of house model and the region

00;22;35;28 - 00;22;36;29

college model?

00;22;36;29 - 00;22;37;05

You know

00;22;37;05 - 00;22;41;05

what else is going on in the seventies

eighties nineties that is is of interest.

00;22;41;14 - 00;22;44;21

Yeah,

well there's a lot of experimentation

00;22;45;00 - 00;22;48;17

right so the free university model

that's not a not

00;22;48;17 - 00;22;50;03

something

that Christians have a corner on.

00;22;50;03 - 00;22;54;06

But you know in San Francisco Bay Area

Berkeley,

00;22;54;17 - 00;22;58;09

you know there's a group of Christians

that are right there at the high watermark

00;22;58;09 - 00;22;59;10

of the counterculture,

00;22;59;10 - 00;23;00;04

and they start thinking

00;23;00;04 - 00;23;03;04

about free university in Berkeley

and they call it the Crucible, you

00;23;03;04 - 00;23;04;14

know, and out of that comes,

00;23;06;05 - 00;23;07;09

you know, a study center that

00;23;07;09 - 00;23;10;24

becomes a group that basically tries

to become like region educate

00;23;11;16 - 00;23;14;20

new college Berkeley,

educate laypeople with graduate degrees.

00;23;14;24 - 00;23;16;12

But it starts as this free university.

00;23;16;12 - 00;23;20;22

You know, the other innovative thing

and it happens at region but it's not

00;23;20;22 - 00;23;23;22

part of the story we've talked about

is when they start this summer school.

00;23;25;01 - 00;23;28;00

And so they actually launch Regent

with a summer school,

00;23;28;00 - 00;23;31;13

a six week summer school,

divided into three week sections.

00;23;31;28 - 00;23;35;07

And they do that two summers

before they launch their fall term in 70.

00;23;37;04 - 00;23;41;00

This summer school is really innovative

because it can

00;23;41;00 - 00;23;44;18

in your summer school, you can bring

John Stott, you can bring S.F.

00;23;44;18 - 00;23;44;28

Bruce.

00;23;44;28 - 00;23;48;17

They don't have to say, I'll live

in Vancouver and be on your staff, but

00;23;48;17 - 00;23;53;09

they can come and interact with whoever

can get there for a pretty low price.

00;23;54;00 - 00;23;56;11

And so a whole generation of L.A.

00;23;56;11 - 00;23;59;11

evangelicals are learning

from the cream of the crop.

00;23;59;24 - 00;24;02;21

And I think that does something to,

00;24;02;21 - 00;24;05;21

you know, even the evangelical landscape

in North America.

00;24;05;21 - 00;24;07;25

So the fact they had summer schools

and this gets picked up

00;24;07;25 - 00;24;09;26

by a number of other places,

the summer school model.

00;24;09;26 - 00;24;15;04

But but region because Houston, James

Houston, the first principal, had such

00;24;16;11 - 00;24;18;15

a deep appreciation for models.

00;24;18;15 - 00;24;19;23

He had the experience in Oxford.

00;24;19;23 - 00;24;22;23

He pulls this over from Oxford, England.

00;24;23;02 - 00;24;25;22

They they've kind of pioneered this.

00;24;25;22 - 00;24;30;21

And I think of just some of the ways

that that what the region is doing there

00;24;30;21 - 00;24;34;11

with the Summer Institute just has echoes

of things that were way older than that.

00;24;34;11 - 00;24;37;11

I think of like the Chautauqua circuit

00;24;37;20 - 00;24;40;17

and the way that, you know,

major names would come through

00;24;40;17 - 00;24;42;15

and everyone would get to learn

from these names.

00;24;42;15 - 00;24;43;18

And the draw.

00;24;43;18 - 00;24;46;18

This is obviously before any type of

00;24;47;12 - 00;24;50;09

video,

the online video or anything like that.

00;24;50;09 - 00;24;54;07

So the draw of being able to see

this person in person to learn from them

00;24;54;07 - 00;24;58;26

in the flesh is so high,

so and Vancouver is a pretty nice place.

00;24;58;27 - 00;25;01;08

If I remember in the in the summer,

you know, early summer.

00;25;01;08 - 00;25;06;09

So that's a great,

great place to, to, to study for a while.

00;25;06;24 - 00;25;09;11

And one thing okay

if I could add one quick thing.

00;25;09;11 - 00;25;10;16

Yeah. Yeah.

00;25;10;16 - 00;25;12;00

And along those lines is,

00;25;12;00 - 00;25;15;00

you know, just the beauty of Vancouver,

the beauty of the Swiss Alps.

00;25;15;09 - 00;25;18;19

I mean,

this was such a holistic experience.

00;25;18;19 - 00;25;22;04

It was the kind of experience

that that you never forgot and that,

00;25;22;16 - 00;25;24;05

you know, weeks

that might change your life

00;25;24;05 - 00;25;27;05

because you're at one of the most

beautiful places you've ever been.

00;25;27;05 - 00;25;32;04

You're being challenged to think broadly

about how Christianity can impact

00;25;32;04 - 00;25;33;10

every aspect of your life.

00;25;33;10 - 00;25;37;02

You're with some of the most

talented teachers the evangelical world

00;25;37;02 - 00;25;38;06

has to offer.

00;25;38;06 - 00;25;41;26

I mean, and then you're getting even

the meals are instructional.

00;25;41;26 - 00;25;44;29

You know, when either Schaefer presents

a multi-course meal

00;25;44;29 - 00;25;48;02

and the napkins are folded just right

and she has lists about how to butter

00;25;48;02 - 00;25;53;10

the bread to the very edge, I mean,

prepared, like it's all instructional.

00;25;53;10 - 00;25;56;27

It's all saying that life matters

embodied life,

00;25;56;27 - 00;25;59;16

which I think is a huge point

to make about this.

00;25;59;16 - 00;26;02;24

It's not just heads and brains on sticks,

00;26;02;24 - 00;26;05;24

but this is for all of you

that these people are.

00;26;06;00 - 00;26;07;26

Hmm, that's great. That's great. And that

00;26;09;01 - 00;26;09;22

that's one of

00;26;09;22 - 00;26;15;08

the arguments we make here at Upper House

for being a physical space where people

00;26;15;26 - 00;26;19;17

we're not just sort of distributing

videos or podcasts,

00;26;19;25 - 00;26;23;07

but we're actually a space

where people can come in and experience

00;26;23;07 - 00;26;26;12

hospitality, get to actually know

other people in the flesh.

00;26;26;12 - 00;26;28;16

And there is definitely

00;26;28;16 - 00;26;31;16

much more that happens

than just brain activity at that point.

00;26;31;16 - 00;26;34;16

It's a full body,

full spiritual experience.

00;26;35;06 - 00;26;37;23

Okay, So if listeners,

if they've been listening closely,

00;26;37;23 - 00;26;41;28

they might have detected

that there is some theological similarity

00;26;41;28 - 00;26;45;13

to some of these efforts.

00;26;45;13 - 00;26;48;15

So you you mentioned Charlie Piper, who's

00;26;48;15 - 00;26;51;25

this important figure in the Calvinist

sort of reform tradition.

00;26;52;05 - 00;26;54;22

That's where Schaefer came from as well.

00;26;54;22 - 00;27;00;04

I just wanted to give you space to talk

about the broader theological underpinning

00;27;00;15 - 00;27;05;14

that's underlying a lot of this desire

for Christian education.

00;27;05;14 - 00;27;09;29

And my my suspicion is it's

that there's a sort of reformed background

00;27;09;29 - 00;27;10;18

to a lot of it.

00;27;10;18 - 00;27;12;09

But if you could just talk a bit about

00;27;12;09 - 00;27;15;01

where the where people

are coming from theologically.

00;27;15;01 - 00;27;16;11

Yeah, yeah.

00;27;16;11 - 00;27;20;24

There's there is a reformed background,

but it's broadly reformed, you know, So

00;27;21;09 - 00;27;26;09

I mean, yeah, there's a Dutch reformed

like Kuyper, you know, Rock macher.

00;27;26;09 - 00;27;26;15

Yeah.

00;27;26;15 - 00;27;29;23

There's a Dutch reformed thread

that's coming through this and,

00;27;29;23 - 00;27;33;07

and this is a stream

that really does have an appreciation for,

00;27;33;16 - 00;27;35;22

you know, the gospel impacting of life,

00;27;35;22 - 00;27;38;06

an appreciation

for like a pluralistic society

00;27;38;06 - 00;27;40;06

where everything can compete

equally, you know, and

00;27;41;13 - 00;27;43;11

which they

would say would be good for everybody.

00;27;43;11 - 00;27;45;22

Christianity included in Christians

on the free

00;27;45;22 - 00;27;48;22

marketplace would probably do pretty well

because their beliefs are true.

00;27;49;19 - 00;27;52;19

But then, you know, there's

also this kind of broadly reformed,

00;27;53;00 - 00;27;55;22

like even Luther, you know,

the sense of table talk, you know,

00;27;55;22 - 00;27;58;02

and that shows up at the Ligonier

Valley Study Center.

00;27;58;02 - 00;28;00;28

They call their first publication

Table talk.

00;28;00;28 - 00;28;05;22

And and there's a sense in which

Luther took the scripture to the masses

00;28;05;22 - 00;28;07;05

in the vernacular and

00;28;07;05 - 00;28;10;02

and thought, you know,

that women should learn at the table, too.

00;28;10;02 - 00;28;13;09

And and

and so there is this just broadly reformed

00;28;14;07 - 00;28;16;06

part of that's

an appreciation for scripture.

00;28;16;06 - 00;28;19;06

Most of these places value scripture

very highly.

00;28;20;19 - 00;28;24;06

You know,

so there's a broadly reformed element

00;28;24;06 - 00;28;27;11

to it, though I wouldn't want to call it

strictly Calvinist.

00;28;27;11 - 00;28;29;03

I mean, you have Plymouth brethren, right?

00;28;29;03 - 00;28;32;03

But they have they're working with

Anglicans and Presbyterians, you know.

00;28;32;17 - 00;28;32;25

Right.

00;28;32;25 - 00;28;36;11

There is an interdenominational part

of that as well.

00;28;36;29 - 00;28;40;05

If we could just we're going to move soon

to the to the present moment.

00;28;40;05 - 00;28;43;24

But Charlie is someone who spent

a lot of time thinking about all these

00;28;43;24 - 00;28;45;04

different manifestations

00;28;46;02 - 00;28;47;14

over the postwar period.

00;28;47;14 - 00;28;51;26

And, you know, many of them are still in

existence or in are doing quite well.

00;28;52;06 - 00;28;55;05

But if you were to just sort of grade it,

00;28;55;05 - 00;28;59;01

what would be some of the biggest

strengths of these types of efforts?

00;28;59;01 - 00;29;02;03

And we're going to bound them together

in sort of the study center type

00;29;03;14 - 00;29;04;22

model.

00;29;04;22 - 00;29;08;20

What are some of the biggest strengths

of that of this movement, this effort?

00;29;08;26 - 00;29;11;29

And then what are a few of the weaknesses

or the challenges that

00;29;13;07 - 00;29;16;02

these types of efforts

at Christian Education face?

00;29;16;02 - 00;29;20;02

Yeah, well,

the strengths we've named some of them.

00;29;20;02 - 00;29;24;11

I mean, just the way in which people

from all walks of life

00;29;26;05 - 00;29;28;12

could take some time to think

00;29;28;12 - 00;29;31;19

Christian about their vocation

and their profession.

00;29;32;02 - 00;29;35;12

I mean, I think that was a strength,

that it wasn't just for clergy

00;29;35;12 - 00;29;36;29

asking the same kind of questions,

00;29;36;29 - 00;29;39;08

but as for people

asking a whole range of questions.

00;29;39;08 - 00;29;42;27

They may not even believe in the Lord yet,

you know, So that was especially L'Abri.

00;29;42;27 - 00;29;45;11

I mean, there were all kinds of people

that did not believe

00;29;45;11 - 00;29;47;14

God even existed there, you know?

00;29;48;18 - 00;29;51;18

So that

was a strength, I think a strength was

00;29;51;22 - 00;29;54;27

how quick on their feet so many of these

places were because they were small

00;29;54;27 - 00;29;58;19

and they weren't huge institutions,

you know, with, you know, pensions to pay.

00;29;58;19 - 00;30;03;05

I think being able to be quick on

your feet was was a strength

00;30;03;05 - 00;30;07;02

be, you know, needing to be ecumenical

to some degree.

00;30;07;02 - 00;30;09;07

You know,

00;30;09;07 - 00;30;12;19

this sense of Lewis's mere

Christianity was something that,

00;30;12;20 - 00;30;15;14

you know, maybe not as much at liberty,

but definitely at Regent

00;30;15;14 - 00;30;18;14

and some of these other places

was was at the forefront.

00;30;18;17 - 00;30;21;11

So there were a lot of strengths

just around accessibility.

00;30;21;11 - 00;30;24;11

And I think some of those strengths

actually become

00;30;24;11 - 00;30;27;29

or or become maybe not

they don't become weaknesses,

00;30;27;29 - 00;30;32;12

but they end up kind of decreasing in

how much of a strength

00;30;32;12 - 00;30;36;09

they actually are as the years

go on as things change.

00;30;36;09 - 00;30;38;14

So now when I think about

00;30;40;13 - 00;30;43;13

when I think about accessibility,

00;30;43;13 - 00;30;46;20

a lot of these study centers

don't seem super accessible anymore

00;30;46;21 - 00;30;50;06

to like the average American Christian

00;30;50;19 - 00;30;53;24

unless you have time and money

to spend time somewhere.

00;30;54;07 - 00;30;58;17

You know, it's hard to get there unless

you get into a fairly elite university.

00;30;58;17 - 00;31;01;09

You know,

it's hard to get to a study center.

00;31;01;09 - 00;31;02;27

They're not everywhere.

00;31;02;27 - 00;31;07;04

So I think as accessible

as they initially were,

00;31;07;05 - 00;31;10;21

they're actually not very accessible

to a wide range of people anymore.

00;31;11;06 - 00;31;14;22

And that's that's something that does

concern me and we can get into that later.

00;31;14;22 - 00;31;17;22

But it's something I think about.

00;31;18;17 - 00;31;20;04

I think another weakness

00;31;20;04 - 00;31;24;00

is, you know, these strengths

and weaknesses are so interconnected.

00;31;24;00 - 00;31;27;17

So the strength is they can move quickly,

they're independent, they can they

00;31;27;23 - 00;31;28;18

they're quick on their feet.

00;31;28;18 - 00;31;29;09

But the weakness

00;31;29;09 - 00;31;32;15

is that sometimes personalities

just drive the whole thing, you know?

00;31;32;15 - 00;31;36;07

And if the personality goes off the rails,

the whole thing goes off the rails

00;31;36;07 - 00;31;39;12

or the personality passes away, like,

00;31;40;04 - 00;31;42;26

is there someone to pick up the reins,

you know?

00;31;42;26 - 00;31;45;29

And that was region

strength is they had an amazing team.

00;31;46;13 - 00;31;49;13

Houston gets a lot of credit

and he deserves a lot of credit.

00;31;49;27 - 00;31;54;17

He was the charismatic leader,

but Regent did so

00;31;54;17 - 00;31;58;12

well because they had an amazing,

amazing and big team.

00;31;58;29 - 00;31;59;04

Yeah.

00;32;00;05 - 00;32;01;02

Yeah.

00;32;01;02 - 00;32;07;01

I love thinking about those challenges

as sort of different variations

00;32;07;01 - 00;32;11;09

on the strengths, and I think we can move

toward particularly that accessibility.

00;32;11;09 - 00;32;16;10

Question When I heard you say

that I was thinking about the,

00;32;17;24 - 00;32;22;09

well, exactly what you said, the way that

we there's about 30 study centers now.

00;32;22;09 - 00;32;24;16

We're just going to talk about study

centers.

00;32;24;16 - 00;32;29;04

The 35 most of them are obviously on

college campuses.

00;32;29;04 - 00;32;30;12

That's sort of the model is you

00;32;30;12 - 00;32;32;13

you plant yourself

next to a college campus

00;32;32;13 - 00;32;36;00

and you serve the students and the faculty

at that university or college.

00;32;36;27 - 00;32;40;17

But many study centers and I'd say upper

house is in the mix

00;32;40;17 - 00;32;44;06

there at the University of Wisconsin,

want to be near elite

00;32;45;09 - 00;32;48;28

universities, universities

that have rankings and resources

00;32;48;28 - 00;32;53;10

and some of the best faculty,

some of the brightest students. And

00;32;54;10 - 00;32;56;19

and of course, that's a very small segment

00;32;56;19 - 00;32;59;27

of American society

that ever goes through those things.

00;33;00;25 - 00;33;04;05

Can you just talk about Well,

I want to hear

00;33;04;12 - 00;33;05;09

if you have any more thoughts

00;33;05;09 - 00;33;08;13

on that sort of development

in the study center movement.

00;33;08;13 - 00;33;11;13

I know there's other models for that.

00;33;11;13 - 00;33;14;24

I think of InterVarsity Christian

Fellowship, which is really emphasize

00;33;14;24 - 00;33;17;23

trying to create chapters

at Christian community colleges.

00;33;18;00 - 00;33;19;20

That's some of their new efforts,

00;33;19;20 - 00;33;22;20

which are obviously

a different group of students.

00;33;22;21 - 00;33;26;28

But also as someone who works

in the rural setting.

00;33;27;02 - 00;33;30;02

For a lot of your work,

00;33;30;20 - 00;33;31;11

I guess, how do you

00;33;31;11 - 00;33;35;25

how do you see that

development of a lot of the effort

00;33;35;25 - 00;33;39;21

for Christian education

being focused on elite university

00;33;40;27 - 00;33;42;20

students and faculty?

00;33;42;20 - 00;33;46;05

Yeah, well, I see a couple of

different ways on the one level.

00;33;46;15 - 00;33;48;21

On one hand, I think it's excellent.

00;33;48;21 - 00;33;53;03

I mean, it makes a lot of sense

and I think it's should be happening,

00;33;53;18 - 00;33;56;18

you know, because these are places

that are shaping our culture.

00;33;56;21 - 00;33;59;21

These are places where there are funds

00;33;59;22 - 00;34;03;12

usually available to do this kind of work

because it does take money.

00;34;04;27 - 00;34;08;01

There's alumni

pools that care about thinking well.

00;34;08;01 - 00;34;10;17

So it does make sense

I don't hold anything against it.

00;34;10;17 - 00;34;11;19

In fact,

00;34;11;19 - 00;34;14;21

you know,

if there's 30 more elite universities,

00;34;14;21 - 00;34;16;17

they should all have a study center,

in my opinion.

00;34;16;17 - 00;34;19;17

You know, Now, I will also say

00;34;20;12 - 00;34;24;08

I think the consortium and the movement

00;34;24;08 - 00;34;27;15

and those who are willing to invest in it

00;34;27;15 - 00;34;31;22

should think carefully

about trying to broaden their efforts.

00;34;32;08 - 00;34;35;08

The smaller schools, you know,

00;34;37;04 - 00;34;39;06

because

00;34;39;06 - 00;34;42;15

there is a there is a divide

00;34;43;05 - 00;34;46;16

in kind of historically orthodox

Christianity in the United States

00;34;46;16 - 00;34;52;02

between kind of those

who who living in urban and suburban

00;34;52;02 - 00;34;56;19

centers, near great institutions, with

great communities of thoughtful leaders

00;34;57;02 - 00;35;00;20

and those who live in most of the rest

of the country, where you just don't

00;35;00;20 - 00;35;04;16

always have even you don't even know

that's out there, you know.

00;35;04;16 - 00;35;08;00

And so my heart is for the smaller places

00;35;08;19 - 00;35;11;14

to actually to see more of these pop up.

00;35;11;14 - 00;35;13;25

And the thing about it

is, and I tell people this about church

00;35;13;25 - 00;35;17;01

planting, too, is

you could probably develop four

00;35;17;01 - 00;35;21;00

or five study centers at smaller colleges

for the cost of one, you know, at a

00;35;21;02 - 00;35;24;13

at a major institution, you know,

because just the cost of living

00;35;24;13 - 00;35;26;07

and everything is so much lower.

00;35;26;07 - 00;35;30;04

So I think there's a lot of need,

but I think there's a lot of potential

00;35;30;20 - 00;35;31;19

in smaller places.

00;35;32;23 - 00;35;33;10

Have you given

00;35;33;10 - 00;35;37;01

thought to what were they

and maybe these exist might be ignorant.

00;35;37;04 - 00;35;40;04

What would a study center

that's at a more rural,

00;35;40;04 - 00;35;43;01

you know, in a more rural community,

maybe that's not even the right model.

00;35;43;01 - 00;35;44;02

Maybe we can think about that.

00;35;44;02 - 00;35;46;02

What's the right way to think about it?

00;35;46;02 - 00;35;48;20

But what would be

the defining marks of that?

00;35;48;20 - 00;35;53;03

Like how how would you best serve

a rural community and how would that look

00;35;53;03 - 00;35;57;03

differently than serving

a, you know, a dense university community?

00;35;57;03 - 00;35;58;03

Yeah.

00;35;58;03 - 00;36;01;05

I think a lot of it would be scale.

00;36;01;28 - 00;36;03;16

You know,

it just wouldn't have to be as big.

00;36;03;16 - 00;36;05;13

But I mean,

I think it'd have the same kind of things.

00;36;05;13 - 00;36;08;16

Kitchen, library,

you know, places for studying,

00;36;11;04 - 00;36;14;08

read books on offer courses,

maybe not as many, but a couple

00;36;14;08 - 00;36;17;28

of courses semester on offer to think

well about something.

00;36;18;06 - 00;36;20;14

So a lot of it's actually pretty similar.

00;36;20;14 - 00;36;24;06

You you would find some faculty

who are well trained who are Christian and

00;36;24;06 - 00;36;25;03

who would want to help,

00;36;27;05 - 00;36;29;19

you know,

instead of having a 17,000 person

00;36;29;19 - 00;36;33;12

university or a 40,000 person university

00;36;33;12 - 00;36;37;04

But still a lot of people in a part

of rural, you know, wherever you're at,

00;36;37;19 - 00;36;41;11

you know,

so I think and then some of these colleges

00;36;41;11 - 00;36;44;09

are actually close enough where

you might be able to have some overlap.

00;36;44;09 - 00;36;47;28

You know, you might be able to be

in one building, rented space for two days

00;36;47;28 - 00;36;50;01

and then another one at the other place

for two days.

00;36;50;01 - 00;36;53;01

You know,

you could think creatively about it,

00;36;53;01 - 00;36;56;01

I think along the lines of how

you might think about church planting.

00;36;57;19 - 00;36;59;14

So I think I think it could be done.

00;36;59;14 - 00;37;02;16

I mean, it does take

00;37;02;23 - 00;37;04;27

a blend of skills, right?

00;37;04;27 - 00;37;07;27

You need to be able to have people

leading these who can think well

00;37;08;02 - 00;37;11;11

and have credentials of some kind, though

maybe they don't need terminal grace

00;37;11;17 - 00;37;16;05

to the same extent, but they need to be

be the right kind of thoughtful people.

00;37;16;05 - 00;37;16;22

But at the same time,

00;37;16;22 - 00;37;20;19

they need to have their ear to the ground

and be aware of the context, you know?

00;37;20;22 - 00;37;24;26

Yeah, there's going to be ways

and tones of conversation

00;37;24;26 - 00;37;27;26

that might be different

in different communities.

00;37;28;00 - 00;37;28;25

Right? Right.

00;37;28;25 - 00;37;29;17

Yeah, different.

00;37;29;17 - 00;37;32;17

Different interest

bubbling up from the community itself.

00;37;32;24 - 00;37;35;14

I do want to just as I was thinking,

as you were talking,

00;37;35;14 - 00;37;38;00

there are study centers

that are at much smaller colleges.

00;37;38;00 - 00;37;39;09

I think of the C.S.

00;37;39;09 - 00;37;41;27

Lewis Center

that's in Northfield, Massachusetts,

00;37;42;28 - 00;37;45;23

which is a very historic site for that's

where Dwight

00;37;45;23 - 00;37;50;08

Moody has a lot of his revival

ministry headquartered.

00;37;50;08 - 00;37;51;27

But it's a pretty small town now.

00;37;51;27 - 00;37;56;10

And I don't exactly

I don't recall the university

00;37;56;10 - 00;37;58;09

or college

they serve, but it's a small one

00;37;58;09 - 00;38;00;17

because it's small town,

but there are a few of those.

00;38;00;17 - 00;38;03;05

But I think the

the ones that certainly gather

00;38;03;05 - 00;38;06;12

the most resources are places

like University of Minnesota,

00;38;06;12 - 00;38;09;12

University of North Carolina,

University of Wisconsin.

00;38;10;05 - 00;38;13;05

These are these bigger schools.

00;38;13;26 - 00;38;14;07

Okay.

00;38;14;07 - 00;38;18;23

I want to ask a different sort

of a question that's slightly different.

00;38;18;23 - 00;38;21;23

But as someone who is a pastor, Charlie,

I wondered

00;38;22;07 - 00;38;24;20

if you had some thoughts on this,

which was

00;38;24;20 - 00;38;27;20

what is the proper role

00;38;27;22 - 00;38;31;27

of Christian education for the church

and for these other ministries?

00;38;31;27 - 00;38;35;22

And I wonder I've wondered this in in

just my own setting,

00;38;36;06 - 00;38;36;29

not even thinking

00;38;36;29 - 00;38;40;27

about working at Upper House,

but interest in my own church, wondering,

00;38;40;27 - 00;38;43;03

you know, sort of

what should I be looking to

00;38;43;03 - 00;38;46;00

from the church

in terms of intellectual formation,

00;38;47;19 - 00;38;50;19

exposure

to sort of ideas that are challenging

00;38;50;19 - 00;38;53;26

to the faith

or sort of sophisticated theology

00;38;54;25 - 00;38;57;11

that I can use to bolster my faith

00;38;57;11 - 00;38;59;28

versus going to,

00;38;59;28 - 00;39;02;26

you know, a college or a seminary

or even going to a study center

00;39;02;26 - 00;39;05;24

or a campus ministry or something else.

00;39;05;24 - 00;39;07;15

As a pastor, how do you think about that?

00;39;07;15 - 00;39;10;11

How do you think about sort of

what's in your what do you want to shape

00;39;10;11 - 00;39;13;29

and what do you want to sort of outsource

to other ministries to shape?

00;39;13;29 - 00;39;15;14

Right.

00;39;15;14 - 00;39;17;04

Yeah,

And it depends where you're at, right.

00;39;17;04 - 00;39;21;21

Because the reality is, as a pastor

where I am, I can't outsource much at all.

00;39;22;05 - 00;39;25;18

If I outsource

it is to the radio or to cable television.

00;39;26;00 - 00;39;26;10

Right.

00;39;26;10 - 00;39;29;16

So so for me, there has to be a way

00;39;30;21 - 00;39;34;01

when I think about it, I have to think,

what do I really want to convey?

00;39;34;01 - 00;39;37;01

And that has to be a part of what

our church does.

00;39;37;01 - 00;39;40;02

So, you know, just for me,

it often comes down to just like

00;39;41;12 - 00;39;43;20

theologically robust,

00;39;43;20 - 00;39;47;05

thoughtful teaching,

you know, from the pulpit primarily,

00;39;47;26 - 00;39;50;25

or of course, here

and there, you know, on a topic.

00;39;51;13 - 00;39;54;11

But I do think, you know,

if you have the luxury

00;39;54;11 - 00;39;57;11

of having options available,

which is a great thing to have,

00;39;58;05 - 00;40;01;04

it's probably more of a question

and the thing

00;40;01;04 - 00;40;04;04

as I was thinking about this even ahead

of our conversation, I was thinking

00;40;04;24 - 00;40;07;21

what what I really think needs to happen.

00;40;07;21 - 00;40;09;16

And this is happening to some degree,

though

00;40;09;16 - 00;40;13;12

I think there's always room for

more is a real partnership

00;40;13;12 - 00;40;17;13

between local churches and institutions

like study centers,

00;40;17;13 - 00;40;21;05

you know, or seminaries

or whatever you have in your vicinity.

00;40;21;05 - 00;40;24;21

Like that

geographic proximity does matter.

00;40;25;01 - 00;40;30;02

So a sense of partnership

for the good of the gospel in the kingdom

00;40;30;19 - 00;40;33;21

and a sense that we don't have to do

all the same things we can like

00;40;33;22 - 00;40;34;20

share the load.

00;40;34;20 - 00;40;36;03

I think that is a really good

00;40;36;03 - 00;40;39;12

like if there's a sense of partnership

and teamwork because honestly,

00;40;40;10 - 00;40;44;18

like some of the really thoughtful

intellectual conversations,

00;40;44;26 - 00;40;47;05

you really may not want to have

those at the church

00;40;47;05 - 00;40;50;07

because some of the people, half

the people may not be ready for it

00;40;50;20 - 00;40;54;22

because we're hoping our churches

are actually quite diverse on every level,

00;40;55;08 - 00;41;01;02

you know, And so the church on some level

has to be about the main and the plain,

00;41;02;07 - 00;41;05;07

the just the gospel, the sacraments,

00;41;05;08 - 00;41;08;08

the fellowship of believers,

00;41;08;10 - 00;41;08;20

you know?

00;41;08;20 - 00;41;10;01

And so some of this is actually is

00;41;10;01 - 00;41;13;01

better suited for a study center

or something like that.

00;41;13;02 - 00;41;16;13

But if there's a partnership that can be

that can be really beautiful.

00;41;17;23 - 00;41;17;28

Yeah.

00;41;17;28 - 00;41;21;25

And I think of someone that we work

with here pretty regularly.

00;41;22;00 - 00;41;22;21

His name's Christopher

00;41;22;21 - 00;41;25;21

James Dean at the University of Dubuque

Theological Seminary.

00;41;25;23 - 00;41;26;23

But he often

00;41;26;23 - 00;41;29;24

he does a lot of work in Madison,

and he talks about sort of ecosystems

00;41;29;24 - 00;41;34;09

as the way to think about sort of church

or ecclesial eagle ecosystems.

00;41;35;11 - 00;41;40;02

Most institutions, whether they're

churches or study centers are often

00;41;40;02 - 00;41;43;25

just thinking about their own work

and and how we can do our work better.

00;41;44;25 - 00;41;47;13

But we all exist in these ecosystems

where if we think

00;41;47;13 - 00;41;50;13

in those terms, we can make partnerships

and have a bigger vision

00;41;50;27 - 00;41;54;05

than just our

our individual institutions can offer.

00;41;54;20 - 00;41;55;16

Yeah, yeah.

00;41;55;16 - 00;41;59;08

In my notes I had prepared,

I had this line

00;41;59;08 - 00;42;02;21

monocultures and ecosystems

written down ahead of our conversation,

00;42;02;21 - 00;42;06;10

because I do think like

that is an important thing to think about.

00;42;06;15 - 00;42;09;09

Not exactly on those lines, but

but I think it is.

00;42;09;09 - 00;42;11;01

That idea makes a ton of sense. But,

00;42;12;06 - 00;42;14;18

you know, this sense of like

00;42;14;18 - 00;42;17;20

we if we only do one thing sometimes.

00;42;18;18 - 00;42;21;27

So I'm thinking about like the way

we try to communicate.

00;42;22;14 - 00;42;26;19

So, for instance,

you know, video, video teaching, right?

00;42;26;19 - 00;42;30;09

Like Ligonier Valley Study Center,

like they went from an ecosystem

00;42;31;21 - 00;42;37;06

that took in their context, took in a lot

of kind of holistic sense of their place

00;42;37;06 - 00;42;42;02

and was connected to other ministries

by virtue of necessity to a monoculture.

00;42;42;02 - 00;42;43;24

And then that was that was also negative.

00;42;43;24 - 00;42;46;24

So it can't be just like we do arts

and we're fine.

00;42;46;29 - 00;42;50;20

It has to be this integrated

ecosystem idea.

00;42;50;20 - 00;42;51;23

Yeah. Yeah.

00;42;51;23 - 00;42;54;10

And that it's interesting

to think about that geographically too,

00;42;54;10 - 00;42;56;17

because I think I mean, we're doing this

on a podcast right,

00;42;56;17 - 00;43;00;03

so it's sort of it's one version of that

where we're going to beam this out

00;43;00;03 - 00;43;04;29

and anyone from anywhere can take it

and we hope more and more people do it.

00;43;05;10 - 00;43;08;09

But there is something lot and we talk

about this with with other stuff we do.

00;43;08;09 - 00;43;12;16

There's something lost when you remove

the embodied context of upper house.

00;43;13;01 - 00;43;16;14

And that isn't to say that

that what we're doing isn't worthwhile,

00;43;16;14 - 00;43;17;26

but it is to say that it's a it's

00;43;17;26 - 00;43;22;03

a different type

than when we actually host groups here

00;43;22;04 - 00;43;26;13

or when we have an event where we have

people from the community coming in and,

00;43;27;20 - 00;43;28;11

you know,

00;43;28;11 - 00;43;29;11

for a variety of reasons,

00;43;29;11 - 00;43;32;12

including the ease of the Internet

and mass media and stuff,

00;43;32;13 - 00;43;35;29

the things that can scale well tend to be

the things that you mentioned,

00;43;36;12 - 00;43;40;16

you know, cable news

and on, you know, Internet holding.

00;43;40;16 - 00;43;41;27

And those are

the things that are accessible

00;43;41;27 - 00;43;44;21

to everyone, everywhere, all the time.

00;43;44;21 - 00;43;45;25

But there are those monocultures

00;43;45;25 - 00;43;49;17

right there, the things that sort of offer

the same message to everyone.

00;43;49;17 - 00;43;52;25

And it's usually the, you know, the

harshest message or the clearest message.

00;43;53;29 - 00;43;57;20

And I guess that's a question

that's just coming to mind right now.

00;43;58;01 - 00;43;59;27

Charlie, as you've

00;43;59;27 - 00;44;02;21

been pastoring for a few years now,

00;44;02;21 - 00;44;05;21

how much of your Christian education

work is

00;44;06;16 - 00;44;09;16

sort of trying to build up

00;44;10;14 - 00;44;11;13

theological

00;44;11;13 - 00;44;15;02

or other knowledge in your in the people,

either

00;44;15;02 - 00;44;18;04

your students or parishioners

and congregants?

00;44;19;02 - 00;44;22;21

And how much of it is is fighting

against these other information

00;44;23;28 - 00;44;26;00

sources that are

00;44;26;00 - 00;44;30;02

not that not that before cable news people

weren't getting formed by other things.

00;44;30;02 - 00;44;34;06

But I think a lot of people think

it's intensified in recent years.

00;44;34;06 - 00;44;37;09

But is that something you think

about sort of how much of are you trying

00;44;37;09 - 00;44;41;18

to undo things versus trying to build

build from a solid foundation?

00;44;42;02 - 00;44;46;01

Yeah, I mean, and information is something

I think about a lot.

00;44;46;01 - 00;44;50;13

And the formation information, as you guys

know, happens to us all the time,

00;44;50;13 - 00;44;52;24

whether we want it to or not.

We're always being formed.

00;44;52;24 - 00;44;57;18

And, and so I think about it a lot

and sometimes it is a catch 22.

00;44;57;18 - 00;45;00;11

I don't love that

our church uses social media,

00;45;00;11 - 00;45;03;07

but it seems like

we have to use social media.

00;45;03;07 - 00;45;06;07

But I wonder what

that's forming in our people, right?

00;45;06;20 - 00;45;10;09

So there are these kind of like,

I don't know the best way forward on this,

00;45;11;09 - 00;45;15;11

but I

do try as much as I possibly can to it

00;45;15;17 - 00;45;20;00

to just lean into the fact

that when we gather it is formative time

00;45;20;00 - 00;45;23;14

when we walk to the front

every week and receive the Lord's Supper

00;45;23;25 - 00;45;24;27

that is formation,

00;45;24;27 - 00;45;28;21

You know, when we worship, when we pray,

when we hear instruction from the Bible.

00;45;28;21 - 00;45;32;14

So formations at the front of my mind,

because I know

00;45;32;14 - 00;45;36;16

folks are being formed 24 seven

basically when they're not at church.

00;45;37;10 - 00;45;39;01

Yeah, that's right.

00;45;39;01 - 00;45;43;22

Our my pastor talks about

and he would probably qualify this

00;45;44;14 - 00;45;47;18

even even as I'm saying it

but that he, you know, has

00;45;48;05 - 00;45;51;06

he has us for,

you know, 90 minutes a week or something.

00;45;51;06 - 00;45;54;14

And then all these other media have us

for however many hours

00;45;55;03 - 00;45;55;29

they have us for a week.

00;45;55;29 - 00;45;59;12

And so particularly this is one example

00;46;00;02 - 00;46;03;27

he would have is, you know,

the Bible talks a lot about justice.

00;46;04;15 - 00;46;07;02

And and so you can speak,

00;46;07;02 - 00;46;10;17

you can say justice from the pulpit

or you can be teaching it in the class.

00;46;11;06 - 00;46;14;06

And people are going to read

into that word a lot of different things

00;46;14;06 - 00;46;17;06

based on whatever news they consume

and whatever they're reading.

00;46;17;17 - 00;46;20;10

And they're going to they're going

to assume you're talking about that

00;46;21;14 - 00;46;22;27

when you're saying justice.

00;46;22;27 - 00;46;25;05

And you might even

just be trying to be biblical about it.

00;46;25;05 - 00;46;28;11

You might be framing it

entirely in the biblical context.

00;46;28;11 - 00;46;31;21

So I think of those really tough issues

that particularly pastors have,

00;46;31;21 - 00;46;36;15

but anyone teaching in any setting

would have with a lot of these

00;46;36;20 - 00;46;39;28

these terms that are in our culture

and also derived from the Bible.

00;46;40;14 - 00;46;42;22

Wow, it's crazy out there.

00;46;42;22 - 00;46;44;27

Yeah, it's crazy out there. Yeah.

00;46;44;27 - 00;46;45;05

Okay.

00;46;45;05 - 00;46;48;09

I want to just wrap up

with a couple questions.

00;46;48;09 - 00;46;53;00

One of them is to just get your take

as someone who is in a more rural setting.

00;46;53;00 - 00;46;56;25

And so you're you're dealing with people

00;46;56;25 - 00;46;59;27

day to day

who are obviously in that setting as well.

00;47;00;10 - 00;47;02;28

And there's some perennial sort

of Christian education topics.

00;47;02;28 - 00;47;06;13

I just want to get your take on

what they're like from your

00;47;07;03 - 00;47;10;23

and I don't want to like exoticized

your your location versus mine,

00;47;10;23 - 00;47;12;19

but it's just

I don't live in a rural setting.

00;47;12;19 - 00;47;15;29

So when I think about the first

one is going to be faith and work

00;47;15;29 - 00;47;18;02

when I think about faith and work,

I think of it

00;47;18;02 - 00;47;21;05

so intensely in this university context

that I live in, right.

00;47;21;05 - 00;47;22;16

And the and particularly a student

00;47;22;16 - 00;47;25;28

oriented faith and work conversation

where we're trying to prepare students

00;47;26;12 - 00;47;29;26

to enter into careers,

usually ones that require college degrees,

00;47;30;10 - 00;47;36;07

that we want them to be thinking

about how their commitments to Christ

00;47;36;07 - 00;47;40;29

and and their grounding in the Bible

will shape them in those in those context,

00;47;41;06 - 00;47;44;00

I want to recognize that

that's not the context of faith and work

00;47;44;00 - 00;47;46;23

that everywhere is.

And probably is in in your setting.

00;47;46;23 - 00;47;49;14

So when you think about faith

and work in your context,

00;47;49;14 - 00;47;52;22

what are you thinking about and what are

you trying to get across to the people?

00;47;53;02 - 00;47;53;16

Yeah,

00;47;55;24 - 00;47;58;13

I mean, it is some

00;47;58;13 - 00;48;00;10

it's partially by nature of my background.

00;48;00;10 - 00;48;03;21

I mean, it is partially

some of the same things on, on one level.

00;48;03;21 - 00;48;06;24

I mean and we do have we have

we have teachers, we have architects,

00;48;07;12 - 00;48;10;09

we have you know,

we have some of the same engineers.

00;48;10;09 - 00;48;11;19

We have these kind of people

in our church.

00;48;11;19 - 00;48;15;07

But at the same time,

our community also has a lot of blue

00;48;15;07 - 00;48;18;21

collar service work, you know,

just like probably every community does.

00;48;18;21 - 00;48;20;13

They just might not be in a certain

church.

00;48;20;13 - 00;48;21;28

Right.

00;48;21;28 - 00;48;27;06

But so when I think about faith and work,

I do I try to help people think.

00;48;27;06 - 00;48;30;19

I mean, I'm pretty inspired by Shafer's

holistic take on it, too.

00;48;30;19 - 00;48;33;13

So I think I try to get people

to think about that.

00;48;33;13 - 00;48;35;01

There's no sacred secular divide

00;48;35;01 - 00;48;39;05

but that all of life counts

and all of our jobs count.

00;48;39;05 - 00;48;44;07

And we're not just, you know, whittling

away our time for no reason but like this,

00;48;44;07 - 00;48;47;14

a chance to worship the Lord and actually

invest in the kingdom, you know, So

00;48;47;27 - 00;48;51;08

so that doesn't it doesn't matter

what kind of job you have for that.

00;48;52;10 - 00;48;52;18

But the

00;48;52;18 - 00;48;55;22

reality is, and I'm

I'm thinking back to a Christian today.

00;48;55;25 - 00;48;57;17

I think it was a cover story.

It might have been more

00;48;57;17 - 00;49;00;06

than five years ago

now called God of the Second Shift.

00;49;00;06 - 00;49;03;27

They had this story on

kind of like the way in which most faith

00;49;03;27 - 00;49;07;16

and work conversations

assume a white collar listener.

00;49;08;06 - 00;49;11;22

And I do think that is a problem.

00;49;11;22 - 00;49;14;25

And and there are lots of people

that just even simply

00;49;14;25 - 00;49;19;01

getting to church on a regular basis

because of their shift work is hard,

00;49;19;11 - 00;49;22;18

let alone coming to like a four week

class on faith and work, you know.

00;49;22;18 - 00;49;25;18

So what does it look like to actually

00;49;27;02 - 00;49;28;26

help these folks think about it?

00;49;28;26 - 00;49;31;13

It looks like something different, right?

00;49;31;13 - 00;49;35;05

And innovative, which I'm still thinking

about what that looks like here.

00;49;35;27 - 00;49;39;24

And it also sometimes just looks like

validating that that work matters

00;49;40;00 - 00;49;42;15

because you don't read about it

in most of the books.

00;49;42;15 - 00;49;42;24

You know,

00;49;42;24 - 00;49;44;27

coming out from IVP

or something on vocation

00;49;44;27 - 00;49;48;01

like these jobs don't show up the same

unless it's like you might be a farmer,

00;49;48;01 - 00;49;51;22

but you're raising like grass fed beef

and you having this like restaurant

00;49;51;22 - 00;49;52;17

local connection.

00;49;52;17 - 00;49;54;25

But you're not just like a dairy farmer

00;49;54;25 - 00;49;57;02

and you're using hormones

sometimes because you have to.

00;49;57;02 - 00;49;59;05

And in rural western pay,

you know what I mean?

00;49;59;05 - 00;50;00;18

It's a different conversation.

00;50;01;25 - 00;50;03;00

Very interesting.

00;50;03;00 - 00;50;07;26

The other one I want to ask you about sort

of another perennial issue in Christian

00;50;07;26 - 00;50;13;18

education is just the sort of apologetics

or knowledge type of education.

00;50;13;18 - 00;50;17;23

So that's often a, you know, way

that Christian education is delivered

00;50;17;23 - 00;50;20;25

is there's certain defenses of the faith

or there's certain,

00;50;21;08 - 00;50;25;03

you know, issues

that are very hot in the culture.

00;50;25;15 - 00;50;30;20

That and again, I'm assuming

this is why I want to ask you about it.

00;50;30;25 - 00;50;32;20

I always come at it

from a university context.

00;50;32;20 - 00;50;35;12

So there are these issues that students

are learning in the classroom.

00;50;35;12 - 00;50;35;24

Yeah.

00;50;35;24 - 00;50;37;06

And you're wanting to make sure

that they have

00;50;37;06 - 00;50;39;03

a sort of Christian perspective on that.

00;50;39;03 - 00;50;43;12

Or how do you think about those types

of apologetics

00;50;43;12 - 00;50;46;12

or or ideas oriented education

00;50;47;08 - 00;50;49;27

for a non university context?

00;50;51;07 - 00;50;51;28

Well, I

00;50;51;28 - 00;50;55;21

don't think a lot about apologetics,

and I think it's fine.

00;50;55;22 - 00;50;57;09

The nature of the way there's

00;50;57;09 - 00;51;01;08

been maybe a subtle shift from apologetics

being at the front.

00;51;01;17 - 00;51;03;27

You know, more front of of thinking.

00;51;03;27 - 00;51;06;02

And I think I've inherited that

a little bit.

00;51;06;02 - 00;51;09;01

But at the same time,

I do think a lot about,

00;51;10;06 - 00;51;12;27

again, formation and art of formation

00;51;12;27 - 00;51;15;08

is being able to think

well about your time, right.

00;51;15;08 - 00;51;17;29

And the problems of your moment.

00;51;17;29 - 00;51;23;11

And the thing is because everyone in big

or small places has phones and has access

00;51;23;11 - 00;51;26;20

to the same idea as though they might have

trickled through like mass media.

00;51;28;01 - 00;51;29;27

Many of the same ideas,

00;51;29;27 - 00;51;33;11

though maybe a little less

distilled, are out there in our churches.

00;51;33;20 - 00;51;33;29

Right.

00;51;33;29 - 00;51;37;11

And so it does actually matter

00;51;37;11 - 00;51;40;24

that pastors are equipped and willing

00;51;41;11 - 00;51;46;02

to tackle some of the ideas

that are out there because everyone

00;51;47;00 - 00;51;50;00

with the way tech is anymore,

everyone is encountering them.

00;51;50;11 - 00;51;53;05

And trickling down

to every sphere of life.

00;51;53;05 - 00;51;56;28

So so that does matter

and that's why it does matter.

00;51;57;10 - 00;52;00;04

I mean, I think the calling

00;52;00;04 - 00;52;03;27

of teachers and pastors in large

and small places

00;52;03;27 - 00;52;07;21

is just so important right now

because there are so many ideas

00;52;07;21 - 00;52;10;04

vying for our

attention and for our hearts.

00;52;12;10 - 00;52;12;20

Okay.

00;52;12;20 - 00;52;14;23

So that takes us to the last question

here.

00;52;14;23 - 00;52;18;14

And that's I just wanted

an open ended question of if you could

00;52;18;27 - 00;52;21;25

sort of dictate where Christian education,

00;52;21;25 - 00;52;24;25

broadly construed

00;52;24;28 - 00;52;28;24

moves in the near future, in the next

5 to 10 years, what are the

00;52;29;09 - 00;52;32;08

the two or three things you'd really want

to make sure are emphasized

00;52;32;08 - 00;52;35;08

or are are top of the mind

00;52;35;12 - 00;52;39;00

for the people that pastors, teachers,

professors,

00;52;39;09 - 00;52;42;09

those types?

00;52;42;25 - 00;52;44;23

Yeah,

00;52;44;23 - 00;52;47;23

I think the first thing I would say,

00;52;48;23 - 00;52;51;23

you know as I worked on my book,

00;52;52;00 - 00;52;54;05

I kind of came into contact

for the first time

00;52;54;05 - 00;52;57;15

with the work of Joshua Little

and this idea of a technological society

00;52;57;15 - 00;53;00;16

and technique,

and it's captured my mind since then.

00;53;00;16 - 00;53;03;01

And then Al Noble's recent

book, You're Not Your Own,

00;53;04;05 - 00;53;07;05

you know, really kind of riffs on that

and does a great job.

00;53;07;13 - 00;53;10;08

And so I, I am pretty convinced

00;53;10;08 - 00;53;14;07

that we need to guard against efficiency

00;53;14;08 - 00;53;19;24

being like the number one motivator

for everything, including education.

00;53;20;09 - 00;53;24;17

And we need to intentionally because

it will not happen unless for intentional

00;53;26;09 - 00;53;30;09

push into more

and more human forms of education,

00;53;30;09 - 00;53;33;18

the more it takes account of all parts

00;53;33;18 - 00;53;37;17

of our humanity, the better, and the more

it meets us in a relational space.

00;53;37;18 - 00;53;39;01

That's one of the things,

as I was looking over

00;53;39;01 - 00;53;42;05

some of the region chapter and stuff in

preparation for the day, I was just struck

00;53;42;05 - 00;53;45;18

once again

by Houston's emphasis on relationship.

00;53;45;18 - 00;53;48;09

And it was like through 40

or 50 years of his career.

00;53;48;09 - 00;53;50;25

I mean, it's just amazing

00;53;50;25 - 00;53;53;05

even when he would get pushback

for being too relational,

00;53;53;05 - 00;53;56;26

not enough time in the administration,

like the he knew this was so important

00;53;58;17 - 00;53;59;09

and so I think

00;53;59;09 - 00;54;02;25

education that has to be relational

has to be a life, one life.

00;54;03;08 - 00;54;05;11

I mean, there's

a time and place for podcast.

00;54;05;11 - 00;54;09;20

There's a time and place for

for instruction from a great teacher.

00;54;09;20 - 00;54;14;00

But our tendency to

just want the celebrity to give us a nice,

00;54;14;20 - 00;54;18;06

you know, edited

talk is dangerous to our souls.

00;54;18;06 - 00;54;22;07

And because there's something lost,

I mean, when you're thinking about La Brea

00;54;22;07 - 00;54;25;15

and you're thinking about like you worked

for hours together, you know,

00;54;25;16 - 00;54;28;16

in the garden,

you learn something at that time,

00;54;28;17 - 00;54;30;28

and then you went in with dirty hands

and learned theology.

00;54;30;28 - 00;54;32;05

There's something good about that.

00;54;32;05 - 00;54;33;27

And then you eat a meal together.

00;54;33;27 - 00;54;36;17

So it's going to look different

in all kinds of place,

00;54;36;17 - 00;54;37;17

but it has to be contextual.

00;54;37;17 - 00;54;40;17

It has to relational

has to be for this place in this moment,

00;54;40;17 - 00;54;43;17

for these people that God loves uniquely,

you know.

00;54;43;23 - 00;54;44;10

So that's

00;54;44;10 - 00;54;47;10

that's probably like my biggest thing,

and that's going to look like all kinds

00;54;47;10 - 00;54;48;04

of different things.

00;54;50;09 - 00;54;53;09

And then part of that second part of that

00;54;53;19 - 00;54;57;15

is that it cares about people

in a lot of different places,

00;54;58;03 - 00;55;01;21

you know, And it's not just for the folks

who are going to be

00;55;01;21 - 00;55;03;17

at the frontline for everything,

00;55;03;17 - 00;55;07;24

you know, the best educated, the people

with the best connections, but that that

00;55;07;24 - 00;55;12;13

it tries as best they can, the movement

in general, the studies, their movement.

00;55;12;13 - 00;55;17;26

But just like thoughtful

Christians try to make room at the table

00;55;18;16 - 00;55;21;13

for people of different racial

backgrounds, different socioeconomic

00;55;21;13 - 00;55;25;14

backgrounds, geographic backgrounds,

because it really does matter.

00;55;25;14 - 00;55;29;02

I mean, what does it look like for

like the consortium to catch a vision, say

00;55;29;11 - 00;55;32;21

we're going to intentionally

look at some underserved places

00;55;33;06 - 00;55;35;01

and harness our resources to that?

00;55;35;01 - 00;55;37;07

I think that kind of stuff

that sounds human to me.

00;55;37;07 - 00;55;39;23

That sounds very kingdom to me.

00;55;39;23 - 00;55;40;23

Agreed. Agreed.

00;55;40;23 - 00;55;45;18

That sounds like a vision of the kingdom

from Revelation seven, nine

00;55;45;18 - 00;55;50;00

or many other places in the New Testament

of a very diverse,

00;55;50;07 - 00;55;53;19

multicultural, multi

socioeconomic class in the kingdom.

00;55;53;19 - 00;55;55;19

So, Tali, thanks for your time.

00;55;55;19 - 00;55;58;24

Thanks for the work you've done

and your ministry going forward

00;55;58;24 - 00;56;01;08

is a pleasure talking to you. Yeah, it's

great to be here.

00;56;01;08 - 00;56;02;08

Good luck to all you guys.

00;56;02;08 - 00;56;04;09

God bless

and all you do and appreciate Upper House.

00;56;06;03 - 00;56;07;17

Thanks for joining us.

00;56;07;17 - 00;56;10;12

If you've enjoyed today's podcast,

be sure to subscribe

00;56;10;12 - 00;56;13;12

and give us a rating

on your favorite podcast app.

00;56;13;14 - 00;56;16;06

Also, be sure to check out

our upcoming events on Upper House

00;56;16;06 - 00;56;19;06

org and our other podcast UpWords,

00;56;19;07 - 00;56;22;15

where we dig deeper into the topics

our in-house guests are passionate about.

00;56;23;10 - 00;56;26;10

With Faith in Mind is supported

by the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation

00;56;26;23 - 00;56;30;24

is produced at Upper House in Madison,

Wisconsin, hosted by Dan Hummel

00;56;30;24 - 00;56;34;24

and John Terrell, Our executive producer

and editor is Jesse Koopman.

00;56;35;15 - 00;56;39;19

Please follow us on social media

with the handle at Upper House UW.