This episode explores the very real risks and important safety concerns when working with sedative herbs. It is part of a series about herbal support for sleep and insomnia.

Links & resources from this episode

• Herbalism, PTSD & Traumatic Stress Course – https://solidarityapothecary.org/herbalismandptsdcourse/ (closing soon)
• Episode 129 Sedative Nervines: Herbs for Sleep, Nightmares and Night Wakings - https://solidarityapothecary.org/the-frontline-herbalism-podcast/129-sedative-nervines-herbs-for-sleep-nightmares-and-night-wakings/

Find them all at solidarityapothecary.org/podcast/

Support the show

Music from Sole & DJ Pain – Battle of Humans | Plant illustrations by @amani_writes | In solidarity, please subscribe, rate & review this podcast wherever you listen.

Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast with your host Nicole Rose from the

Solidarity Apothecary.

This is your place for all things plants and

liberation.

Let's get started.

Hello. Welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast.

How are you doing?

I'm good.

In the last few days now of promoting the

Herbalism PTSD and Tronic stress course,

it's been a lot of work.

It's always a lot of work.

But it is worth it when I just get these really lovely emails from people being like,

oh my God, this is amazing.

I'm sorry if you've joined and you haven't been able to access the private podcast feed.

I done it on my side uploading all the things and I'm now just trying to like import the

emails of all the people on the course.

It's just not working and I keep trying to figure it out and I'm not one of those people

that reach out to support very much.

Like I will read those how to guides very

thoroughly on the Captivate website.

But whenever I message them saying like, hey,

I can't work this out or it's telling me to contact support,

they don't.

It feels like they just don't get back to me

till like the night time.

I'm like, dude, I only have a few hours to work in the morning.

So anyway, I'm really sorry if you joined the course and you're waiting for that private

podcast feed.

It was a labour of love sorting all the audios out, recording the bits that didn't have

audios, recording the introduction, getting them all in order, doing the show notes like

it is all there ready and waiting for people.

I just need to import this list of emails.

So it's very frustrating.

It might be because there's too many.

There's like over two and a half thousand

learners.

Can you believe it?

******* hell.

I had like, I have a dashboard that kind of

like tracks the like the learndash analytics.

So I can see like how many people have completed the course, stuff like this, but

like it kind of gets lost like how many people have actually joined.

And I'm very aware that lots of people sign up and then I never return to it.

But I do think compared to like the other online courses and like the sort of rates

online, I think the kind of numbers of people that actually work through it is like really,

really high, which really means a lot to me and I think it just gives a nice like **** you

middle finger to people that are like,

don't give stuff for free.

Because people won't value it.

And it's like, okay, your classism is showing.

I mean, I do understand that.

And don't get me wrong, I've had lots of,

like, challenges with like, sliding scales and all sorts of **** in the past with different,

you know,

things I've done, like my workers co op, when we used to teach courses stuff.

But yeah, I think overall it's just like people are interested in trauma and the

nervous system and how the.

Do we navigate this world and how can plant medicines support us and what role do they

play? What role do they play?

And, you know,

how do we have more of a limit.

I can't speak today, more of a liberating view of trauma that isn't just kind of highly

individualised and, you know, this person is mad or whatever, but is like, you know,

looking at the conditions of the world that we're living in.

So ran over.

The private podcast will be here soon.

And yeah, I'm super grateful for everyone

that's joined.

If you're able to, like, do a cheeky share on

the old Instagram or something, I'd appreciate it so much.

Or just forward one of the newsletters to people that you would recommend the course to,

like that sort of stuff.

Like, you cannot underestimate how helpful it

is.

So, yeah,

okay, so I'm gonna continue on with the sleep theme and today I'm going to be talking about

sedative herbs and I've got another episode all about sort of hypnotic and sedative herbs,

which I will.

I keep saying I'll put it in the show notes.

Do I put it?

I don't think I do.

I'm sorry.

One day I won't be working at the speed of light.

It's just this, like, ridiculous childcare situation of, like,

I don't want to, like, have.

I want to have as many hours as I can with my

small child.

So, like, I just.

I'm trying to squeeze everything in too fast and I should just surrender the fact that I

need to let some stuff go or support less clients or not do the free clinic or like all

of these different options.

But I don't want to do that either.

So I'm just trying to do both, which is probably silly, but.

Right, sorry, I've obviously had too much coffee this morning.

Okay,

sedative nervines, let's ******* get stuck in.

Okay, sorry, this is just like a second mini introduction bit, but I went on a few rants in

this episode and I just wanted to give like a Solid content warning that I do end up kind of

referencing like,

like sexual assault and rape and trauma while under like anaesthesia.

And I also talk about active addiction and alcohol,

car accidents.

Hell, it was a big episode.

But yeah, I just want to kind of give that

content warning before I start talking about the sexual assault stuff.

I do like say that I'm about to talk about it, so you can kind of pause that and skip ahead.

I know I haven't put the like, specific time that you can skip into, but yeah, I kind of,

you know,

for a good chunk of the rest of that episode, I will talk about more like trauma things.

So yeah, I just wanted to, to share that.

Okay, thanks so much for listening.

All right, so like I mentioned, I've already got an episode exploring sedative nervines

where I talk kind of more specifically about the herbs.

And I will definitely be giving like frequent examples to the herbs in this episode.

But the kind of focus of this episode is more around like safety and the things that really,

really need to be thinking about.

So just to start, like sedative herbs can be wonderful medicines, like life changing

medicines.

Like I've tried and worked with most of these

plants.

Well, all of these plants in different

contexts and they're just super wonderful.

Like, I'm so grateful we have this plant medicine that's accessible to us,

but just because, you know, it's the adult age old thing.

Sorry, I get my metaphors jumbled up.

Anyone that knows me personally will enjoy

this part of my.

Happens frequently.

But yeah, so basically natural doesn't mean harmless.

Right? Like, and I think when we're working with.

I hate the word strong because it's so ******* subjective, but when we're working with herbs

that have like more kind of potential, higher consequences, then we need to really be

thinking about safety very kind of seriously.

And like tactically does that make sense? So I don't want to like generate fear around

herbs.

Like, I want people to experiment with plants

and to not feel frightened of them.

Really important.

But it is just good to kind of, yeah, cover

our bases of like important kind of safety factors that are most especially important

with these like stronger sedative herbs.

And again, just to like preface this, like,

risk is kind of complicated and does depend on the specific plan, but also like the dose,

how it's prepared,

the person,

like how a herb interacts with them specifically.

And I'll be giving some examples of this and also just someone's personal context.

Like are they pregnant? Are they on medication?

Like all of these Things.

So it's not like this herb is dangerous.

It's like actually this herb carries more risk

in this context or isn't safe in this context.

Or you need to think about this.

Like I said, herbalism is very complicated, which is why my herbalism, PTSD and traumatic

stress course is really helpful because it kind of lays out these different nuances and

these kind of safety considerations for 32 different plants.

And that's like a very good grounding for someone that is kind of new to this.

And it's a lot of information to kind of get your head around.

Okay, so I'm just going to explore some of the factors that can kind of influence like the

risk profile of a sedative herb.

And by sedative herbs.

The herbs I'm going to be kind of mentioning or talking about are herbs like hops, for

example, and wild lettuce,

passionflower flower, valerian skullcap,

California poppy,

like cramp bark is kind of an anti spasmodic but can be used as a sedative.

And also herbs like mugwort that are like traditionally used with around like dreamwork

and stuff.

So I'm going to be kind of like dancing between different examples of these plants.

But I'm very aware that that's like the kind of narrow materia medica that I work with in

terms of my bioregion and herbs that I can access more easily.

So you might have other sedative herbs depending where you're listening.

Right.

Okay. So one of the herbal safety things that comes up in herbal safety classes and things

is this thing of a kind of additive effect.

So it's like someone might be taking a

medication that has a certain effect, like lowering blood pressure, for example.

And then if you give them a herb that also can potentially lower blood pressure,

it's like an additive effect.

Right.

It's like two of the same effects.

And don't get me wrong, herbs are amazing and kind of mystical and magical and that they can

often go both ways with different actions and all this sort of stuff.

But we do need to be thinking what like sedation is this person already like

encountering in their kind of lifestyle or their like the prescription medications, for

example, or non prescribed medications, drugs, things like that that someone is taking.

So I think like one of the most common things is alcohol.

So alcohol is obviously, you know, depending on what you're drinking, like it can be very

stimulating and can definitely affect sleep in lots of ways.

But there's also lots of forms of alcohol that are like very sedative.

Right. Like I haven't drunk since like 2017 and I'm sure if I did, I'd be so tired because

of two years of sleep deprivation, looking after an infant that it would probably just

knock me out and I'd be pretty boring in that party.

But if someone is like regularly drinking alcohol, especially if they're in active

addiction,

I wouldn't want to be giving them sedative herbs that had like a strong relaxant effect

on the central nervous system because it is just double and double.

Does that make sense?

If you can trust that that person has a kind of non addictive relationship or non

dependency relationship where yeah, they might drink over the odd night, but actually when

they're not drinking and they're struggling to sleep, they will just kind of sensibly take a

recommended amount of a herb,

you know, tincture or something to support their sleep.

That's like very different to someone in active addiction who is just not able to kind

of like have that like measured like limitation of what they're taking.

So yeah, that's like a whole other ball game in terms of,

yeah, alcoholism and active addiction and herbal medicine.

And I'd love to interview some guests around that.

I think it's quite close to home for me at the moment because of my ex relapsing after like

five years and that just being very kind of devastating in all directions.

Thankfully he's doing really well and he's literally just left rehab and moved into a dry

house, which is awesome.

And I'm stoked for him.

And he's able to see me and our son like a few times a week now, which is wonderful.

So, you know, I don't wanna be a Debbie Downer about this stuff, but it' just something to

consider.

Okay. So yeah, alcohol.

The other thing that I would be particularly

worried about is if someone is already being prescribed sedatives.

And many people that are having problems with sleep will go to the doctor, understandably.

And then the doctor will prescribe sleeping tablets without addressing any of the other

factors that I've been talking about in this series, you know, like digestion and

inflammation and hormonal changes and nervous system activation.

Like that stuff is just not coming into a ten minute doctor appointment.

Right.

So someone might already be taking sedatives

and they might be taking them like particularly with the goal of sleeping, but

they might also be taking them for like other reasons, like to prevent psychosis, for

example,

or they might be taking like antihistamines that help with like migraine prevention.

And it might Be that they don't perceive their medication as a sedative.

But hopefully with your sort of herbal knowledge and stuff, you'll be aware that this

medication is having a sedating effect and therefore kind of like,

yeah, adding in a sedative herb is like not a good idea.

I think there is like nuance to this and it comes down to again, the person,

you're sort of trusting them, that they're kind of sensible and measured with stuff.

But like, some people will take,

excuse me, an antihistamine and it just won't knock them out.

Like if I have anti histamine, I'll barely be able to wake up.

But yeah, for other people, they don't have that quite strong effects.

So they might be able to then take some sort of like hypnotic sedative herb in moderation

and that not be harmful as a combination.

But yeah, I'm.

I'm concerned basically about sedating antihistamines also.

A lot of the sort of sedative nervines are often contraindicated with like various

different antidepressants.

And I think sometimes like that that reaction

is kind of like known like I feel like most herbal education around herbs like hops,

people will be like, avoid with depressants with antidepressants because of this,

like, you know, sedating property and you know.

But like the thing with sedative herbs is like most of them have either like a strong effect

on the central nervous system or they're like doing something around neurotransmitters like

GABA or serotonin.

And that's where they're sort of risk profile comes in with a lot of the more like

psychoactive medications.

So yeah, I'm just kind of a little bit.

I'm very cautious as a herbalist.

But yeah.

So like any other sort of sedating

medications,

you know, we're thinking about like, especially like,

you know, serious things like benzodiazepines, for example, or opioids.

You know, like if someone is either, you know, like using opiates and stuff, that's like one

thing.

And like I said, like the active addiction

stuff's like a challenge.

But also if someone is just on like buckloads of pain medication and again, that pain

medication,

like tramadol or whatever, like it might not be touching the sides for them.

It might not be actually helping them sleep.

But again, it's like what's ******* preventing them from sleeping.

And maybe it's the pain.

So therefore, like herbal pain support could

be really powerful.

Or all these like Things like addressing

inflammation and stuff like is going to be really, really important.

So again, let's like never forget that we have to be looking at why a pattern is happening

and what other drivers that we can address.

But yeah, like if someone was on like a lot of heavy, heavy meds, like I would, yeah I would

just be nervous of using too much sedation or even any sedation depending on the context.

And you know, everyone is specific.

Okay. You'll see this in herbal books of like, don't drive or operate machinery.

But like this is really ******* serious.

Like in terms of,

you know, like if someone has too much of a sedative herb,

they might literally crash their ******* car and kill someone.

Like that is a risk.

Like we have to be thinking about that as a

herbalist and I hate to say it but like even like bashing a little cup of tincture, like

that might be enough alcohol to tip someone over the edge if they haven't had had alcohol

in years,

for example.

Or they're like very sensitive

constitutionally.

Like I wouldn't feel safe taking loads of

tincture and driving.

Like, I just wouldn't.

Like, I don't, you know, obviously don't drink and drive but I'm, I'm very sensitive about

this because my mum was like hit in a hit and run and my dad also got hit by a driver.

So yeah, like it's just like a,

it's a real thing.

So yeah, think about timing and it's not just

about when someone is taking a herb and then like are they taking it just before bed?

But like how long is their sleep? Like are they sleeping 12 hours and maybe it's

hopefully out of their system? Or are they waking up at like 4 in the morning

and like getting the tube to work or whatever.

I mean not that the tube's a problem but like, you know, are they driving to work for

example? So everyone has like a different kind of

clearance time with any pharmaceutical med or any herb.

Like we all have different bodies, different metabolism of how long that herb and that

herbal action is going to be kind of impacting us.

So yeah, we need to kind of be thinking about that.

So yeah, like the driving, the heavy machinery.

I never thought I'd be interested in heavy machinery.

But having a toddler, like I know all of them now.

I know like all of the ******* construction vehicles because my son just shouts them out

whenever we drive past them.

So yeah, don't ******* operate that excavator with a lot of sedative herbs in you.

Okay? There's also other risks and like things like

falls for example.

So if you've ever done like elder care or had to look after an elderly relative like I've

done this with like near enough all of my grandparents.

Like I lived with my stepdad's mum who had dementia for like five years and helped care

for her.

I helped drive back and forth to my grandparents house like and supported my nan

and my granddad with like all of their sort of transitions and different things.

And like full risks are like so ******* serious.

So like if they were struggling with sleep I would be very, very, very nervous of giving

them some sort of strong herb because I'd be really frightened of them falling over in the

night for example.

And also like a lot of people especially in these kind of long Covid times have a lot of

kind of like balance issues and like POTS type symptoms where they are a little bit prone to

falls and feeling dizz.

Yeah like, and that stuff's quite serious.

Like my best friend Jilly who died in 20,

God, 2015. Now that was a long time.

Like the kind of predecessor to her dying is she,

she had really bad.

Well she died of pneumonia but she'd had like

heart surgery and stuff and she'd been in hospital and you know, she was kind of like,

I don't want to say on her way out but she was in that kind of like, like end days of like.

Yeah, system shut down I guess.

And you know, side note, that is why I'm

really passionate about this stuff because I've just seen too many brave, amazing,

incredible people throw themselves into struggles for liberation and take zero care of

themselves.

And it just destroys me internally.

Okay.

So yeah, one of the things that was like a predecessor to her death was she was on like a

kind of cocktail of different medications and the combination of one of them like triggered

a blackout basically and triggered her to fall backwards and she broke her pelvis and then

got pneumonia.

And there's like lots of fascinating research around this correlation between people

breaking pelvises and then developing infections.

And there's lots of like mechanisms around like the immune system and white blood cell

counts, stuff like this, which is really interesting.

But this is what I'm saying is like a simple fall could like trigger quite a like serious

cascade for someone like if they were like elderly and vulnerable or physically

vulnerable or you know, just like I see loads of people now in my clinic who've had one

injury like throwing themselves off that handle wheels of a bike and that's caused like

like serious alignment Problems and then they're in pain for like years and years.

So it's like,

yeah, basically we don't want to be having a strong herb that can knock you out to the

point that you're gonna fall over.

Do you know what I mean?

Especially if someone is experiencing like a lot of night wakings with a lot of movement.

I would be, yeah, I'd be really cautious.

Okay. And then,

yeah, the other layer is kind of like pregnancy and breastfeeding, so.

Or chest feeding.

So these are obviously like two different

scenarios.

But you know, with any pregnant person we need

to think about like risks to the infant.

Right.

Like, it's like herbal safety 101 and also obviously risk to the pregnant person.

And the.

Yeah, the sedative herbs profiled in the PTC course, like in the safety section, I will

like include their noted risks, if that makes sense.

Sleep is often something that goes a bit AWOL with pregnancy.

I find on my experiences, like, it tends to go in the other direction of just really tired

and wanting to sleep a lot.

God, I missed the days where I could sleep like 10 hours straight, like, no problem.

Oh, anyway, that's, you know, I probably could still sleep that long, but I just have a two

year old, like, waking me up.

But yeah, like, I have one example of taking more sedative plants.

Like obviously like breast and chest feeding is like complicated in terms of like what's

going through to the infant through breast milk.

And that's like, you know, quite a kind of like,

I don't want to say under researched area, but it's like a mixed area.

You know, like after I gave birth, I had a kind of like nursing tea which actually had

quite a lot of like mild sedatives, like more relaxant nerve irons like chamomile and

lavender that, you know, can easily like knock a baby out.

Do you know what I mean? Like,

we say sedative herbs, but like, for some people,

chamomile is like enough of a sedative.

Like they couldn't take chamomile in the

daytime because it would get them to sleep.

Do you know what I mean?

Or lavender would make them like sleepy enough.

Like,

whereas that's quite different to like a hypnotic nervine, like wild lettuce or

something.

But yeah, I can't remember what was going on with my sleep, but I think,

I don't know, there was just like some patch where I just sort of struggled and I think I

just like found some skull cap glycerite somewhere.

Like I can't remember.

And I was having a bad night and I literally took, like, literally a sip of it to try and

get back to sleep.

And then when Lee was still breastfeeding,

then, but when he wanted a feed, like, I remember,

like, barely being able to keep my eyes open.

Like, literally I couldn't keep my head up.

Like, that's how much skullcap knocks me out.

But, like,

yeah, like, it was really hard to, like, actually safely breastfeeding him.

And it really gave me a fright.

And I thought, you know, these warnings they

put on monographs and stuff, like, they're true around breastfeeding.

Like, like,

and I think the challenge with breastfeeding is, like, you're so nervous, exhausted because

you're waking up every few hours.

Like, especially in those, like, first few

months where they're so tiny and they just want all the booby.

So, like, things that will knock you out.

Like, they're just.

There's kind of a no go.

Like, you need to be alert.

And I think a lot of the kind of, like, newborn neurological changes in the parents,

like, play a role.

Right? Like your hearing changes and like, you know,

like, my ex could just easily sleep through, not hear our child wake up.

But I would, like, always hear him.

I mean, he was nearly always, like, sleeping

nearer on my body, so of course I could hear him more.

But anyway, I won't go on about this too much, but I just want to basically say, like,

it is a really necessary consideration if someone is breastfeeding or chest feeding to,

like, think about a. Is this herb safe for that infant to be consuming somehow?

But also just, like, how much is this gonna knock out the parent?

Likewise with children, right.

They've got.

They're not just like, small adults.

Like, they've got very different physiology in

terms of, like, heart rate and, like, metabolism and like, all the different things.

So we need to be, yeah, just, like, sensitive to the fact that it's not appropriate to give

them, like, sedative herbs.

Like, I'll very occasionally give Lee a tiny,

like, couple of mil of like, chamomile glycerite, like, if he's teething really badly

or just like, struggling to settle.

And that's nearly always because he's teething.

But I would, like, never give him, like, a stronger herb.

Like, it just wouldn't be necessary or sort of safe on his nervous system, in my opinion.

Okay.

So,

yeah, the other sort of safety stuff I wanted to talk about is obviously, like, I've talked

about the risk of combining with, like, sedative Medications,

but just kind of like, we need to be thinking about all medications.

So in the herbal safety lesson of the PTSD course, I do,

you know, go through the things we need to consider are around all sorts of meds, like,

is this herb going to be speeding up how fast we metabolise that drug in the body, and

therefore our body's going to be kind of without that action,

if that makes sense.

So that's what makes it high risk.

Like things like St. John's Wort.

Or is this herb gonna slow down? I mean, yeah.

Is this, like.

Yeah. Is this herb going to, like, slow down digestion, which might affect absorption?

Like, all of these things? Like, I talk about this in the PTSD course,

but,

yeah, it's not just,

like.

It's not just sedating medications.

It's like, all medications that we need to

screen when we're working with a sedative herb.

Okay. And then dose really, really matters.

And I shared, like, an Instagram post in real

last night where I was talking about valerian.

And valerian is this amazing herb that has, like, paradoxical action, like, paradoxical

effects on different people.

And I think it's like a fantastic, like,

teaching hub in terms of,

like, emphasising, like, how different everyone is.

Like, I think when you first get into herbalism, you, like, read these her books and

it's like, oh, this herb's good for this, and blah, blah, blah.

And it just seems so, like, simple of like, oh, chamomile is, like, good for this, blah,

blah.

And then you start working with people and

it's like,

man, this is complicated.

And everyone is so different, especially when

you bring in all the neurodivergent stuff.

But, like, like, yeah, like, dose.

Really? Oh, yeah, sorry.

So I was talking about valerian.

So,

like, there is research that, like, in too much of a high dose,

it can trigger being,

like,

very kind of, like, excitatory for people.

And, like, this was measurements of.

Of the gaba, like, neurotransmitter,

but at a lower dose, it was, like, more sedating.

So it's like, people think if I just keep taking more or a higher dose, that will knock

me out.

And actually it can be having, like, the

opposite effect.

So it's like, always starting small and slow, like, and just building up someone's own

personal tolerance.

Like, some people literally, sedative herbs,

like, won't touch the sides for them.

And they know that about their bodies and

other people.

Yeah, they think that a herb won't help,

but then they take, like, less of it.

Like, 10 drops of passion flower tincture and they'll be ******* out, you know what I mean?

Or a little, like half a cup of skullcap tea will do the job.

Whereas,

you know, 10, 20 mil of skullcap tincture and they're not, you know, I mean, me, that would

knock me out, but for someone else it just ******* wouldn't.

So, yeah, we're all very, very different.

Behind my valerian post, I was talking about prison and how,

like, you'd get these, like, rounds in the evening.

It was meant to be like the nighttime round, but it was like six o' clock or.

And people would get like, knock.

Like people knock on the hatch and then they'd

give people meds and there was always like a prison officer, like a screw and like a nurse.

And often people would be getting meds that are prescribed for them, but sometimes people

would be like, pressing their buzzer, asking for the nurse.

And at that point, I don't know if it's the same these days, but you could, you could get

given these kind of mild,

like, calm sleeping tablets, like, as a kind of PRN of, like.

Oh, you know, they don't need the doctor to, like, write it off, if that makes sense.

You can just be given these if you're struggling, struggling to sleep, which, you

know, it's hard for people to sleep in prison.

And they'd always do a round with these calms and, you know, you can hear every noise in

that place at night time.

So you'd hear people be given these sleeping meds and like, just like clockwork, like, a

bunch of them would just settle down and they were already kind of knocked out with these

meds.

Like, not proper knocked out, but just kind of, you know, like, gently,

like, they would help with sleep, basically.

And I described in the post, like, there would always be like, a werewolf.

So there'd always be like a couple of people or one person that would have these calms arms

and that'll be it.

They're like bouncing off the walls, they're shouting, they're banging, they're buzzing the

buzzer for people.

And, like,

I would.

That would, you know, do my head in.

And then it wasn't until I was like, you know, studying herbalism in much more depth that I

realised, like, it's the valerian.

Like, it's the valerian in those comms tablets that is triggering agitation in some people.

I mean, there's all sorts of, like,

you know, mental health stuff and distress in prison.

Like, it might just not be the tablets, but,

yeah, I Think valerian could be like a sneaky culprit.

And what I love about valerian is that like, everyone is a little bit different.

So I find it did help me get to sleep,

but my sort of nightmares were like, so horrific and like hyper vivid.

And maybe they wouldn't be now that I've like recovered a lot.

And, you know, I've been out of prison for years now, so maybe if I took valerian, it

wouldn't be so bad.

But I think those experiences like, freaked me out for a long time.

Whereas other people, they take valerian and like, yeah, they feel calmer, they feel good,

they feel relieved, they can sleep.

It helps, you know, like, especially with

Ukraine herbal solidarity, like we distributed thousands of valerian tinctures and people

just had that relationship with valerian where it settled their nerves,

it helped calm them down.

So yeah, like, it's a wonderful ******* plant.

But yeah, for some people it can just excite them and even make them just like agitated and

aggressive.

So this is what I mean by paradoxical relation

of paradoxical effects is each herb will affect people differently.

And it does herbalist head in because we're taught this equals that and it's just not

true.

Like, it's just not true in real life.

So I like to support people one to one with an approach that like, like we're experimenting a

little bit in the sense of like,

I can give one blend to someone that is incredibly soothing to their nervous system

and,

you know, relieve anxiety, prevent panic attacks.

And for someone else, it will just make them want to sleep all day and make them feel

depressed because they're so tired because it's too sedating.

So everyone is different.

Okay, so the other safety thing I wanted to talk about is like combining sedative herbs.

So I think when people buy like herbal sleeping tablet type, like, you know,

a sleepy tea blend or a sleepy formula, like sometimes I won't say if they're lucky, but

like, sometimes that mix will work for them.

You know, like these sleepy teas that you can

buy that often have like valerian and lavender and a bit of chamomile.

Like that might really work for someone and that's awesome if it does, like, keep going.

But like I said, for someone else, there might be something in there that's like stimulating

them.

So with sedatives especially, like, I like to

work with them one herb at a time.

So it will be a case of like, okay, let's try working with Skullcap because it's got these

amazing like nerve tonic properties.

Like, in addition to its kind of hypnotic

nature.

And if that's not like, really helping shift someone's sleep pattern, you know, with all

the other things I've talked about in the previous episodes, like nutrition,

inflammation, blah, blah, blah,

like, if that's not working, I might then try, like, passion flower, like, as a glycerite or

a tincture or something, if alcohol's safe for that person.

So it's like,

you know, and maybe if that's not working, we might try.

Try wild lettuce.

And, you know, like I said, it's a bit

experimental, but around sleep and sedation, because these herbs are so potentially strong,

I think trying them one by one is really important because we can a clock which ones

might not be effective,

and we can also kind of like, like, yeah, gauge like a dosage strategy.

Whereas if you kind of just like whack a sleep tonic at someone with like, six different

herbs in if that's not effective for them, like, you're just guessing then of which.

Which herb in that mix could be having the opposite effect that we want.

So.

And you know, because these herbs have, like, strong actions on the body around the nervous

system,

like,

I just think you can risk, like, too much of a good thing in terms of too much sedation or

kind of like contradictory actions like neurotransmitters and stuff.

So I don't know, maybe I'm too cautious, but I just like to work with my sedatives, like,

separately, unless someone has a really strong relationship with that plant and can really

differentiate actions.

But, like, the more variables we get in the kind of, like,

more at risk we are of.

I don't want to say things going wrong, but the more at risk we are of, like, then being

unable to untangle what's causing what, does that make sense?

Like, where the risks are high in terms of sedation.

All right.

And then the other thing I wanted to talk

about with sedation is less, like, physiological and more kind of like trauma

awareness.

So I have shared this on, like, several podcasts before, and I talk about it in the

PTSD course as well.

But, like,

sedation is often, like, a very triggering feeling for people and, yeah, I guess content

warning.

I'm gonna speak about, like, medical trauma

and sexual assault here.

So if you need to, like, sc.

Skip ahead, then, yeah, you can do that now.

So. Right. So there's.

There's a few different layers to this.

So one is just, like, basic lack of familiarity with a rest and digest

parasympathetic state.

So for the Folks who are just like gnarly childhood, loads of chronic stress, **** all

time to feel safe,

supported, relaxed.

Just like their absolute familiarity in their

body and in their life is like fight or flight, right?

And we just continuously kind of like attract and swim in situations that just are ongoingly

stressful.

And it's kind of like water off a duck's back because it's just beautifully familiar for the

nervous system, you know, so.

Which is a tragedy, right, because that shouldn't be the baseline.

But often when someone has that background, and I'm saying that from personal experience

because that like sympathetic parasympathetic rest and digest time is unfamiliar.

We need to sort of like titrate towards that so it can't be a case of like, you are full

speed ahead, head triggered all the time.

And then you take these strong sedatives and

you just feel peaceful and at ease, like, because often that state just feels more

terrifying because a people that are like super fight or flighty often need like a kind

of strong locus of control.

And when they feel sedated, they will like not feel in control, which can feel terrifying.

So there's that aspect,

but there is obviously this like,

sorry, I'm bouncing around.

But basically if someone's kind of like tempo

is that rest or digest state is wildly unfamiliar, then let's like ease in, right?

Let's go in with the lemon balm and the chamomile and kind of try and just like gently

reduce that activation 5, 10% so that there's like a new baseline.

And then when they feel ready, we can have more like, like sleepy hypnotic type herbs.

Because, yeah, just kind of like going full guns with a strong tea might be too much for

them.

I do know that people reach for sedative

things for this desired effect, but for me, I find that people reach for sedatives not as a

like,

oh, I want to access parasympathetic and let my food digest.

It's more like I want to ******* block out all of my feelings by getting like paralytic drunk

or taking ******* smack or do you know what I mean?

Like, it's more of a like hardcore do not want to feel.

It's definitely not like I want to feel calm and rested.

Does that make sense?

Okay, so there's that element of that sedation feeling just way too strong and unfamiliar for

lots of people.

And then there's the other reality that like many, many people have experienced trauma in a

sedated,

like, altered state of conscious.

Altered state of consciousness.

If that makes sense.

So.

Oh, grim. Content warning.

But I was,

yeah, sexually assaulted.

I find it hard to say the rape word, even though it was rape.

But basically I was, like, extremely off my head on drugs and alcohol and was telling this

person to stop, and they didn't, and that kept going.

And it's, like, a large reason why I don't drink or go to festivals and stuff, because

that stuff's just, like, really triggering for me.

But, like,

when people have experienced,

like, traumatic violations to their body, like, in that,

like, state of sedation, like, they've been drugged or they were, like, extremely drunk,

like,

that's just.

Yeah. Then having, like, a strong herb that,

like, mimics that feeling of, like, I am out of control of my body and I cannot get out of

this situation.

Like, I can't physically push this person off because I'm just, like, ******* knocked out.

And often people go through these experiences, like, without knowing that they've gone

through them.

Does that make sense?

So, like, oh, my God. This harrowing, like, stuff that's come out of France, like, I'm

sorry, I. I can't remember their specific names, but, like, the guy who would, like,

basically drug his wife and then get men from the village to have sex with her and film it,

and she had no idea about it for,

like, decades.

And then when he died.

Died.

Is he dead?

I'm not sorry.

I'm being really inaccurate.

But she looked.

She found these videos basically in photographs and stuff.

And then, you know, it's been this, like, huge court case and stuff.

And it's, like,

horrific, but it's like,

not everyone is aware of what's happening to them in different states.

So I do think, like, just like, how a plant can bring back a beautiful memory, you know,

like, oh, this smell of lavender reminds me of my grandma's sheets.

Or, like, whatever.

Like, I do think a herb that has a particular action, like, especially strong action on the

central nervous system, could,

you know,

without a doubt trigger a memory of being sedated and therefore out of control.

And it's not just, like, sexual trauma or date rape or all of this ****, but also, like,

something that's happened, like when someone's in surgery or under anaesthetic, and maybe

that surgery has gone wrong and you don't even know about it until afterwards.

Right.

Or you don't consciously remember it, but

maybe the body remembers that feeling of being sedated and kind of losing control.

Or, you know, maybe you've been in a car accident and you've been knocked out, like,

all of these things are like different drivers of why a herbal effect might be affecting us

in different ways.

Like more than we realise.

So, like, I have like a section on my intake

form where people are very welcome to share,

you know,

nervous system stuff, trauma stuff, whatever.

Like they're like experiences of emotional

distress recently or whatever.

But like, I will, you know, it's like a whole

skill doing that consultation without,

excuse me, trying to open certain boxes that are like unnecessary to open.

Do you know what I mean? Like in a kind of herbal consultation, maybe

if someone was like in therapy or whatever and were like intentionally wanting to go there.

But clients obviously do also kind of volunteer information if they feel like it's

important or they just, just, you know,

are a human being that wants to be seen here, recognised, validated,

you know, held like by a practitioner who's supporting them.

So people will, you know, tell you about this sort of stuff that is,

they've gone through.

So, you know, sometimes that kind of glimpse

into history might make me think, right, okay, this isn't, this isn't a safe like, hub for

them.

Do you know what I mean?

So,

yeah, sorry, I know that was really horrible.

And I'm gonna put a content warning in the

show notes because that was like quite graphic.

But I guess,

yeah, I just want to say, like, herbal medicine isn't a game.

Like, it's,

you know, it's not like,

just take this herb and because it's a herb, it's natural and it won't harm you.

Like, there's so many potential consequences to plants and you know, connect that in with

like trauma and nervous system stuff and yeah, it can feel very overwhelming.

I don't want to like frighten people because like I said, like, all our are,

all our herbs are different, all our bodies are different.

You know, like,

I have.

I'm going to do an episode about nightmares

but like,

you know, someone might take a sedative herb and fall into a deep sleep and maybe they

haven't been accessing that deeper quality of sleep that they need, but it might actually

give the body that opportunity to start processing traumatic memories, in which case

they might wake up feeling more kind of triggered.

Like, and I think, you know, there's a whole ball game around psychoactive properties and

trauma healing.

And like,

again, this is why I get frustrated.

Ah. With herbalists that just blanket give out

herbs.

Like for example, like Mugwort.

I've shared about Mugwort on Instagram and like, many people have commented the same.

But like, for me,

you know, I'M bouncing out prison, like reading these books,

like, about herbalism and stuff.

And very like generic kind of like, take this

hub for this kind of book.

And like,

you know, mugwort is held up as this, like, beautiful, like, dreaming herb and oh, you

know, like witches did all this stuff and da da da, da da.

And it's like I take mugwar and I'm having like some of like the worst nightmares and

flashbacks of my existence.

Absolutely terrified.

Like, no herbal practitioner or support person

there to help me process this level of, like, flooding of trauma.

And I know some people that are a bit macho will just be like, well, that's the herb, like

helping you heal, blah, blah, blah.

But it's like,

Jesus Christ, give a girl some warning.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I think that's why,

yeah, we need to think about,

like, the effects of these plants on people with like, potentially more of a trauma

history.

And I hate to say it, but I think a lot of

herbalists from more like middle class backgrounds, I know that's like, definitely

not the context of plant medicines globally, but, like, especially in the uk.

A lot of herbal practitioners that I've met will admit that that's their, you know, their

kind of background.

They might not have been through like, levels

of trauma that someone who's experienced, like state violence or who's been in active

addiction or grown up with childhood trauma and been in and out of care.

Like, they might not have seen the things that other people have seen.

And therefore for them, like, they can, you know,

take some mugwort and have a, like, you know,

interesting dream about a deer and a fox.

Do you know what I mean?

But for other people, it's like,

if you've seen like the violence like, of this world, like, okay, I know there's like a

context there, but like, say, just like the harrowing stuff I saw in prison in terms of

people being like, attacked and all the sexual violence and all this and the self harm, the

suicides,

like all of these things that have triggered, like, very intense, like, intrusive thoughts

and nightmares for a really long time, which I'm relieved to be free from,

like these beautiful psychoactive herbs that are ******* amazing and have so much potential

to bring us healing and integration.

Like, they can literally trigger PTSD episodes

in people.

So we do need some ******* caution around this

stuff.

And I'm sorry to get on my high horse course, but.

Yeah, sorry, not sorry.

Herbs are powerful.

That's why we work with them.

So let's just know the nuances and the safety

concerns before just like blase dispensing them around.

Woo. Okay, mic drop.

Okay, I'm not gonna drop my mic, but yeah,

okay, I'm gonna stop talking now.

I feel like that was, that was a lot of stuff

there.

Oh, I hope I haven't triggered the into everyone.

I'm really sorry.

I will.

I do you know what? I'm gonna go back and re record the

introduction to just flag some of the stuff I talk about.

But yeah, thank you for listening.

If you're like, I want to practice herbalism

differently and I want to like know my before I'm taking herbs and I'm giving herbs to

people, especially people in your communities that have gone through a lot of traumatic it.

Please join the Herbalism, PTSD and traumatic stress course.

Like, it is the course that I wanted as a baby herbalist of like,

you know, like, I've just learned the hard way with lots of these herbs of like, has this

herb, like worsened ptsd? Has it worsened nightmares?

Has it helped with this?

Like,

you know, like, I don't want people to get texts from their friends being like, I took

skullcap and it was horrendous for me.

Like, I want us to kind of prevent harm while

also always being aware that herbs are pretty unpredictable and everyone is different,

different person to person.

But yeah, if you care about like practising safely while still working with these amazing

herbs and understanding what they can offer and what the risks are,

then like, yeah, please join the Herbalism, PTSD and traumatic stress course.

Don't wait till next year.

Like, it is available now very soon.

It's this private podcast feed so you can just, you know, listen to it over the winter,

next spring, be like all in it.

But yeah, like, I just think, like, it is an

amazing resource for anyone interested, interested in herbalism for themselves who are

practising herbalism in their communities, practising clinically.

Like, I do think you will find a lot of value there.

So like I said, no one turned away for lack of funds.

You can whack in a small donation.

You can pay the full whack if you like.

Thank you very much.

But yeah, you can just join whatever is kind of accessible for you.

And yeah, please, please don't hesitate if you're interested.

Okay. Thanks so much for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.

You can find the transcript, the links, all the resources from the

[email protected] podcast.