"We're training apprentices the same way we did 30 years ago." 

That stark observation from Trent McCarthy, Director of Clean Economy at Melbourne Polytechnic, captures a fundamental problem in Australian construction. While technology transforms how we build, our training methods remain stuck in the past. We sat down with Trent to understand why the building industry's education system desperately needs an overhaul.

For the building industry to attract and retain the next generation, training must evolve to match how we actually work today. The question isn't whether change is needed, it's whether we'll act quickly enough to remain competitive.

LINKS:

Melbourne Polytechnic:

Connect with us on Instagram:   @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:   www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website:  www.carlandconstructions.com/

So Trent, we actually had a conversation about.

Six weeks ago about where we think the issue is with apprentices and why

the system is potentially failing.

And I think being, I'm not blaming you by the way.

No, no, no, no.

Thank you.

So we three carpenters here now.

Three builders.

So we've gone through the whole apprenticeship system.

Hamish has done here a little bit differently, but uh, what we'd

feel is that systems never changed.

It's never updated.

It's never.

Gotten better and it's never, uh, improved to teach what I think

our kids should be learning prove,

prove us wrong.

Prove us wrong.

Yeah.

Look, the, the good news is, is that there are lots of people in

the system who completely understand the problem and wanna fix it.

Yep.

Um.

What they're grappling with.

And I come from, uh, I'm at Melbourne Polytechnic, so I'm not an, I'm not

a teacher, but I work to support our teachers and also, um, those who

work around the education system to actually make sure that the training

that we are offering is aligned with what both the industry needs

now, but needs into the future.

And also what learners and workers need.

Because the reality is, is that how we build things and what we are building.

Is changing has to change.

And the way that we support people into the industry, a broader range

of people has to shift as well.

So I can tell you that in the policy space at the Victorian and,

and federal governments, there's, it's the hot topic at the moment.

How do we shift the way that we provide skills to people and who

provide, who receives those skills?

To give you an example in, um, uh, and you you'd know this in residential

building and construction as a sector of the broader construction industry.

Um, you've got only about two to 3% of the jobs on, you know, the, the trade

sort of roles, um, are held by women.

Um, about 13, we spoke about this all the time, 13 to 14%.

Yeah.

Um, are women across the entire construction industry, so half

of the workforce is missing?

How do we change that?

Well, we can absolutely change the way that work sites have operate,

but we've been trying to do that.

For decades.

In fact, I spoke to a woman not too long ago who was one of the first women in

construction, um, equity officers in, in, in a trade union in the eighties

who was trying to make a change.

And we are still dealing with the same issues.

Yeah.

So we, we have a lot of people that are missing from the industry.

We also have a lot of people.

Um, who could stay in the industry if we change the way that we do work.

So that's one thing.

Um, but also what we're actually asking people to do.

So not everyone that needs to be involved in the industry needs to

be a fully qualified tradesperson.

They don't all need to be able to do all the things they can

be, do, do parts of those things.

So what we train, how we train and who we train has to shift because we

actually need to build the workforce.

We need a lot more people there.

And that means that we have to ask, ask serious questions about training packages.

You'd know that the whole system is built around training packages

and competency-based education, which means that when someone goes

and does an apprenticeship, they're gonna learn a whole lot of things.

They get out on on the job as part of their apprenticeship, and they

may get to do one of those things.

Then that doesn't support them to actually be an innovative, dynamic

worker in what is a changing industry.

So we actually need to think about changing what we teach.

But also the entry point for some people.

Um, we are here today talking to a lot of prefab, um, folks who are basically

saying, you know, someone can, it's, it's like Ikea for in some of these factory

environments, they're doing assembly.

Um, then they might actually move into a more specialized role where

they need some electrical skills.

Well, that's a licensed trade.

So you do need to go through a process.

. We've got people that actually get turned off by the idea of an

apprenticeship, and so they actually get cut out of the system altogether.

And so those are the things that we've gotta tackle.

So the good news is, is that the policy, people wanna see a change.

I know a lot of employers wanna see a change.

I also hear it a lot from workers and from young people who are desperate to

get into the industry but actually can't contemplate doing an apprenticeship

and then having to do further training.

With specialized skills, they wanna get in there and they want get their hands

dirty or even not get their hands dirty.

Actually, in working sort of more of these, um, prefabricated manufacturing

type environments, which is also part of the shift with the industry as well.

there, there's a couple of things.

There, there, there's, the women in trade thing that I want to, I

do want talk about, which I, I'll write that down and go back to that.

Yeah, go back to in trade thing.

But there's also.

Ai right.

Is, is a massive, massive disruptor in a whole bunch of

different, of our life, right?

And I was having a chat with my mate the other day, and he's in it, and

he said, I've got 40-year-old friends who are wanting to go and learn

how to sw swing a hammer because their jobs are becoming redundant.

So I, I feel that we're gonna get a lot, well, I think.

PE people that you didn't think were kind of, you know, were gonna,

coming into our industry, are probably gonna be coming into our

industry, which seems a good thing.

'cause they're gonna be thinking differently.

, And I'm glad you brought up the gender equality that we've got in trades that I

did a post about two years ago saying that I think there's actually this untapped

resource of, moms returning to work.

Who feel that there's a barrier there because they're like, oh, we'll

trade his work seven or three 30.

Like, why can't we foster an environment where we've, they can

start at nine 30 and finish at two 30.

Absolutely.

And this is, this is the opportunity and where we have to have an honest

discussion about changing what the work is and how it happens.

So as we're starting to see more sustainable, um, methods of, of

constructing parts of, of homes, for instance, we are looking at, at.

Prefabrication and offsite construction is one way to do that.

All of a sudden you move to this concept about family friendly working hours.

Yeah.

I've got, I've got two kids.

I've got a 15-year-old and a 12-year-old.

I could not start a job that starts at 7:00 AM and finishes at three 30

because the reality is, is I have to make sure that my kids get to school.

So we need to rethink what we're doing.

Um, one of the ways that we can see more people, seeing

part-time work and flexible work.

And, um, different working hours across the day and different types of

work is actually moving more of the construction component to offsite.

Yeah.

Using that manufacturing environment.

I can tell you that in, um, say in prefab and offsite construction,

you've got, uh, a women's participation rate of about 30, 35%.

Wow.

Right.

That is radically different to what you see as onsite construction.

You also have people with disability who can actually work in the industry

or who, who can no longer swing a hammer, but can operate a machine or do

quality assurance in those environments.

So I think if we are going to meet the sort of housing targets that state

and federal governments have set, if we're gonna meet our net zero targets,

we actually have to think about.

How we change what the work is, who does it and where it happens.

But the other part that sits alongside that is the skills piece.

The, the person that you mentioned before, we have people that are ready to retrain

and into this industry, but never, but would never go and do an apprenticeship.

So what are the skills that they need?

What, what are the skills they've already got?

Yeah.

And how do we give them credit for that?

Yep.

And what are the skills they need to start working on something to,

to do that thing, that thing.

And, and it might not be, oh, you, you, you, you gotta build a house.

Start from to finish.

It might just be right.

We are just gonna be one part of the component.

You a framer, you're a fix it up and tell which is what you Yeah.

We

had this discussion on a previous podcast and got absolutely tore apart that.

We would even consider people having specific skill sets

and doing specific jobs.

It, it, it seems radical, but if you think about, um, every other industry

that has gone through transformation.

Building and construction has not had its industry 4.0 moment, right?

Yeah.

And so I'm, you know, I'm, I'm speaking as someone who is seeing

the system in its totality.

We will always need people who are, um, highly qualified, highly specialized,

and have the, the right certificates.

But you know what, not all of the work that they need to

oversee needs to be done by them.

Components of that work, they can supervise by people that are in technical.

Even potentially non-certified non-trade roles.

Now, that doesn't take away from the really important role that those

people do, but we actually want them to be working on the important stuff.

We've got another challenge as well though, which is that we've got the

largest transformation of the energy sector happening right now, which

means that electricians are being, um, you know, data centers, data centers.

We're talking about offshore wind, we're talking about onshore wind, we're talking

about big solar, uh, a FIFO workforce.

So people being paid more than what they even are being paid in

the construction industry to come and work on large energy projects.

Now that takes part of the workforce away from, um, the sector

that should be building homes.

The also, the other opportunity that we've gotta think about is,

the fact that the workforce itself is a, is an aging workforce.

So building and construction generally across residential, commercial, um, and,

uh, and civil, um, has an age problem.

And so how do we bring more people in?

How do we bring people in who have skills from other industries and can work

collaboratively in a work site and maybe.

Do, um, that one particular thing really well and working in a, in a different type

of model of building where they actually then pick up other skills on the job.

That's where TAFEs and universities, and also I think also industry

itself needs to think, how do we give people skills when they need them,

rather than loading them up with stuff that they're not going to use.

Yeah.

It's also considering like longevity of career.

'cause obviously a lot of, especially carpenters, you know, they're gonna

get to a certain age, body's fried, you know, so how do we keep them in that job?

For longer 'cause it might not necessarily be passion that's died.

It's.

They just physically can't physically do the job anymore.

And in fact, they might be the perfect people to be supervising a process

and providing the quality assurance, but they don't actually have to do

that piece of work at the moment.

The model of work doesn't support that.

You know, the pathway is you do an apprenticeship in, say, carpentry,

um, you might work for someone else, then you might become the builder

and have your own business, right?

And so that there's a very well articulated pathway.

There's a similar pathway that's emerged with, um, you know,

volume building where we have.

Um, uh, electricians who work for someone else and they're working, they're being

paid by the lineal meter for what they do.

, But then that work dries up and they have to go and work on something else.

we've gotta think about, uh, a different model of work.

We've also gotta think about the training that supports that, but the,

probably the third thing is actually the regulatory environment, which I,

I think we can't avoid here, is that at the moment you've got a set of

restrictions about who can do what.

Those things are hard to change.

But how we do them and when we do them can change.

So at the moment, um, you know, if you think about planning and building, you

can't get, , a building signed off unless you have the inspection happen on site.

Whereas if you are looking at offsite components that are offsite construction,

we can get the building and, and planning surveyors and build and, and

planning consultants to understand different ways of building stuff.

We can have sign off in, in a, say, an offsite construction environment.

And that actually supports greater productivity and more

people to be doing those jobs.

So you go back to policy at the start and you're rewriting policy.

But the issue is when you have policy makers writing policy

about industries they don't know, that's when shit hits a fan.

Like who's consulting on these conversations Like.

Are they the everyday builder?

Like, 'cause I think you've got three people in this room who probably

should be in that conversation.

You've

just signed yourself up from a next workshop, mate, you, you, like,

you're probably not gonna get answers

between the three of us that they're gonna not, they're not gonna want to hear.

But the reality is we're in touch with it.

Oh look, I'm, I mean, I'm happy to sit in anything like, I think if it's, if

it's gonna facilitate a change that's necessary, then you know, happy to.

You know, give, give our time to,

yeah, I mean, to, to prove the point about the fact that the policymakers

are eager to, , open this stuff up.

Um, right now, uh, so Melbourne Polytechnic, we are hosting, , what's

called a skills lab for Residential Building and Construction.

So we've been asked to do something on behalf of all the TAFEs in Victoria

and on behalf of the Victorian Skills Authority, which is to say, , what

are the skills that, uh, the industry needs in order to deliver more

homes in a more sustainable way?

And the, the thing that we've been doing is actually engaging with

builders and architects and designers and consumers and those that pay

for stuff and those that receive it.

Um, so we do actually have fellows just like yourself in, in the discussion

who find, find it frustrating, but also really wanna be part of that discussion.

So you, you've, you've absolutely booked in for the next workshop, but

the, the thing is that is actually the key point is disruption, right?

How do we disrupt a system that is actually, decades

old in its, um, in its model.

That's what we do right now.

We're disrupting the industry with the way we build.

Yeah.

The way we talk about building, the way we employ.

Yeah.

I mean,

you've, you've got a female staff apprentice.

I've got two female apprentices.

you answered a question before I had about like, how do we get returning

mums to work and you, you kind of, I guess, intuitively went to the

factory kind of, um, side of it.

Can you see a world where that can be onsite as well?

I mean, I, I'd be totally open to having someone come and work from

nine 30 to two 30 and I'd almost, something in me just thinks that if

you give someone that opportunity.

They're gonna grab that by the horn and they are gonna

give you the best six hours.

Yeah.

Or five hours that you've ever seen because they've been given

this opportunity like I am.

So believe that we have such, we have this workforce here, this latent workforce.

That no one's given an opportunity to yet.

And there's these barriers probably perceived barriers there that no

one's breaking through at the moment.

And I think it's gonna take potentially people like us to go, well, fuck it.

Yeah, we're able to do nine 30 to two 30.

Why not?

Absolutely.

I think that's, that's where, um, leaders and role models in

industry they have the role to play.

I've been in this space trying to encourage, uh, women and girls into

trades and, and into what, what I describe as higher paying roles, right?

So there is a, there is a natural bias in the education

system that sees a lot of, um.

Girls in schools and then women in, in tertiary and, and trade

education, , directed towards the care industries, right?

So we have a, we have a male dominated, um, set of, you know, heavy industries

and a, um, a female dominated set of, of care industries, um, and education sector.

, The reality is, is that.

It's the work conditions are largely the, the, that which

dictates who gets to participate.

Yeah.

So if you can get through, we have female apprentices in our trade school, but I

can tell you that they are unfortunately still the minority because, , all of the

experiences that they've had up until that point run against them in terms of Yeah.

What they're encouraged towards.

So there's a big piece of work with careers, educators in schools.

It

starts off, starts way back, doesn't it?

It starts in grade.

It starts in grade one, grade two.

but we can, we can circumvent this because when women do enter trade

roles, and particularly in building and construction, they are generally entering

those roles after having overcome a whole lot of barriers in the education system.

So they're starting sometimes three or four years behind a male

counterpart before they're even qualified to do the same thing.

Yeah.

So part of what we need to do is not just have dedicated programs, we've

had those for years, but actually have.

Um, genuine transformation in the working conditions.

What you just described, changing the, the, um, the, the working

hours is, is one part of it?

Absolutely.

But also having, , an understanding about what is it that women do, do

need and don't need in order to be able to participate in that workforce.

And part of that, I'm not the expert in that.

There are two absolutely amazing organizations empowered women in

trades and trades Women in Australia.

In Australia, who are both doing the work on this, have been doing

it for, um, a number of years now.

And they'll tell you that it's, there's not, there's no silver bullet.

Yeah.

There's a mix of things.

Yeah.

But where you see a big shift is where, those who are working, whether

it's on small scale bespoke projects or on, um, volume building, can not

just do something differently once, but absolutely transform their system.

Um, in the grassroots.

, I know a builder up in Seymour who, um, worked out that, you know, the way

he, if he could get female apprentices, um, to stay on board with him, um,

he was actually getting, um, a better productivity rate out of the, of the

work because he was, there was just a set of workplace behaviors that

he was seeing that were different.

Right.

You said it, not me.

but one of the things that he did is that he actually, um.

He put male and female portos on all of his sites, and he just said

this must by basic starting point right now, that's, that's a, that's

a small thing, but there's a lot of other things that his, uh, female

workforce started telling him he should do to actually attract more women.

And he's made that shift in his business.

So it, it is possible, but it's gonna require a mix of things to make it work.

Family friendly hours is one, but I think family friendly

hours is good for everyone.

I was just gonna say, yeah.

I mean, and, and, and I did wanna go on the record of saying.

The nine 30 or two 30 is not just for women, right?

Yeah.

Because we've got men who also want to be part of that sort of

morning and afternoon routine too.

So I guess just family friendly work hours, period.

Absolutely.

So the issue I have is we, at the moment, we need to, we'll just

say we need 1.2 million jobs.

Uh, one point about homes, 1.2

million homes in Australia, um, uh, by 2029.

So yeah, and in Victoria, 800,000.

So an additional 260,000 over the next decade.

So

the thing is that I have, the issue is, is a few things just because you

finish, and we talk about this all the time, just because you're finished

an apprenticeship doesn't mean you're qualified to build those homes.

So I think the statistic of like we needing more people, because you've

made a great example in the past, right?

Is when you have a fourth year apprentice who finishes the apprenticeship,

then starts his own business, grabs a second year from where he is working.

But he's now training that second year is still not knowing much.

And that second year leaves when he's a fourth year and the same cycle

continues and each year they just, the quality gets worse and worse and worse.

And if we continue to have people who are not up to date with the latest

technologies and building better, we're gonna build a lot more shit.

We're gonna build up fast, which means we're gonna have a lot

more shit to fix in the future.

Absolutely.

We look, the houses that we have now, and the houses that we are building now are

the same houses that we're gonna have.

In 2050, when we are supposed to reach Net zero in Australia, right.

Or 2045 in Victoria.

So the things that we are building right now, , obviously should be as close

as possible to a net zero environment.

We're a long way off from that at the moment.

Yeah.

Because there's a set of supply chain issues that we've

got, we've gotta deal with.

But the answers are there.

We have them, we're doing it.

That's the thing.

We've been doing it for six years, six, seven years already.

I mean the, the, the net zero piece is a little bit harder, but, um, I think

from, you know, you can't just build a passive house and say it's a net zero.

No, no, no, no.

But, but, but, but the technology is there.

The technology's there.

The technology is there.

And, you know, and I'll take my hat off to Jeremy Spencer from Positive Footprints,

who's also one of the directors of SBA, the roadmap that he's got on our website.

Is it's spelled out for you to follow

the hard work's been done,

the hard work's been done.

Yep.

Yep.

Just follow step by step.

By step by step.

Yeah.

And, and part of, I think this is what I'm hearing, is that there are

a bunch of people like yourselves in.

I suppose in the system, but trying to disrupt the system, building out that

what that pathway is, that roadmap.

Um, it's the same as the, the work that Prefabs has been doing with their roadmap,

which is getting a lot of traction, I'd say, and getting traction because it, it

speaks to the, the productivity question.

housing construction, productivity has been on the decline.

Has been on the decline pretty much every year for the last few years.

I think it was about a, yeah, five or 6% decline in the last four months.

But we need to build more homes than ever though.

That's right.

Exactly.

So, so the trend is running the wrong way.

And, and so we have a genuine problem and it's not, it's not a simple fix.

Part of the challenge, I think, is when you think about bringing

sustainability into construction, part of the challenge is that people

are still building homes that are not sustainable and still making money.

And as long as that happens, it'll keep happening because, of the

regulatory environment, but also 'cause of the consumer demand.

Yeah.

So we, we have seen the shift though in other jurisdictions where some,

some of those northern European jurisdictions where they've moved, and

I do talk about offsite construction a bit because we've seen the shift

there towards, um, less carbon, um, embodied carbon in their buildings.

But, um, more circularity in the buildings, but also greater.

Women and, um, all abilities, participation, see those things?

Or just diversity?

Just diversity.

Diversity more generally.

Yeah.

but you're also seeing, um, housing productivity.

Um, in Singapore they regulated and required, um, because they have a, a

much smaller construction workforce, they made it mandatory, for a whole

lot of construction activity to have to happen in an offsite manner.

And as a result, they saw a massive shift to both the materials and,

, towards more sustainable methods and also the construction methods

leading to better outcomes overall.

So government has a role to play, but we haven't had , both the pressure

or the appetite to move that way.

Yeah,

it is moving, but as I said, the challenge is an economic problem, which is that

people are still making money doing things the same way and all three levels of

government have a role to play in this.

And we have really good signs, but it's never moving as fast as you want it to.

Right.

And also you've got, politics has never been more divided, which makes it super

challenging as well, I'm assuming.

Yes and no.

I, I'm, I'm, I, I spent 12, uh, sorry, 16 years as a local counselor.

Yeah.

Okay.

In the thick of, um, of, uh, of, of sort of local politics.

And I can tell you that it always feels divided.

Yeah.

Um, it's probably, , to some extent, uh, can feel a little bit alienating

for people, though I think is is part of the challenge sometimes because

the political machinery is big and um, social media is a big part of that too.

Yeah.

But we have a, a weird situation right now where we have a, a government at

the federal level with a big majority.

So we have a level of things can change quickly.

Yeah.

So things can change quickly in that environment.

So I would say that you've got strong signals coming out of both

Canberra and Victoria about, the importance of housing, the importance

of sustainability and uh, and that sort of industrial transformation.

, We don't have the thriving manufacturing industry that,

you know, predates many of us.

In fact, in this room, you know, it's actually, there was a period when there

was a certain percentage of the country who was employed by manufacturing

that halved over about 20 years.

We can bring that back.

Yeah.

So if we think about in injecting more manufacturing, well more manufacturing

methods into construction, we will see more housing productivity.

That still means that we need people doing bespoke projects and I don't

think that's gonna decline at all.

we've got an aging building stock as well, so you are always gonna have, you need

homes that need to be upgraded to current, all have to, you have to upgrade them.

I will give a shout out to, I guess one of the bigger influences in the industry.

And that's Metricon, right?

So Metricon recently approached Sustainable Builders Alliance

and we actually had to sit at the table with, with Metricon, um, and

they're genuinely interested in about how they can go about building

better, more sustainable homes.

Now, is it gonna change overnight?

No.

Is it gonna be slow?

Yes.

But are they actually interested?

Yes.

Which I think is a real positive thing because you get someone like

Metricon, Australia's biggest home builder going, Hey, you know what?

We actually need to build better stuff.

Or I guarantee all the other ones will follow.

They have to, they don't, they've got no choice.

And,

and that's, and look, that's what happens with Marcus, right?

So when, uh, when someone moves in a particular direction, it creates.

Um, sort of horizontal pressure for others to move in that way.

Because they need to either compete to get the consumer interest or, one moves

in a particular way and they can do things more efficiently and more sustainably.

So all of a sudden they have a business advantage.

Part of the thing we need to be able to do, I think in, in residential building

is articulate what is the business advantage in moving this in this way?

Yeah.

If it's just for, um, sustainability purposes.

Some people will move, but they were always gonna move anyway.

Yeah.

so what is the, what is the value in having things that are done more

efficiently and more sustainably?

It means that you're gonna be able to improve your productivity, which

leads to a better financial outcome.

It also leads to, I think, um, a level of not environmental sustainability,

but I think also financial sustainability over the longer term.

Yeah.

If you change your business model to reflect what it needs to be in five to

10 years time and you change it now.

You might bear, the cost of that transformation straight away, but

you're gonna reap the benefit.

Yeah.

Overall.

And that's when you look at, um, who does things and thinks about standardization.

So you look at the automotive industry, um, and I'll use Toyota as an example.

If a Toyota, um, factory in, say in Japan has an earthquake, they can shift the

manufacturing of their product to seven or eight different factories around the world

because they use the same methodology.

We don't think about that when it comes to doing construction.

Right.

So they can literally, the chassis is the same.

It's just the stuff on the outside and sometimes the engine.

We don't think about standardization when we think about components of homes.

There's a word for the Japanese used for that, and I don't know

if anyone, it's called smart.

Yeah, well it's smart building, right?

Smart building.

so what I, what I love about some of the people that I've heard from

today here at uh, at this Archi Build expo is people saying, you know what?

Yeah, everyone's house can look a little bit different, but the same bones can,

can exist and you can have three or four different types of, of, you know, uh,

uh, floor plan, footprint, whatever.

It doesn't have to look like a display home in, you know, in a, in a

greenfield estate, it could look like something really interesting to live in.

Very comfortable.

But we standardize the things that we need to, and we create more efficiency

in how we work together, and that can reduce both build time, but it can

also improve sustainability overall.

Yeah, it can also streamline training 'cause there's.

Less intricate components for everyone to wrap their head around.

Absolutely.

In fact, if you think about it as a new entrant into the system, you might

not need to be a licensed trade person to put together the IKEA version of

a, um, of a, a critical part of a house, because actually it doesn't

require the license trade for that bit.

'cause that was done at the design point and at the sign off.

But who sign?

Yeah.

But who signs it off?

It comes back down again to us.

Well, we, I think that we need more licensed trades across the board.

To hold more people responsible so we can increase quality.

Because if they're being trained, they know their standards.

They know what their, what their legal responsibilities

are, rather than some cowboy.

'cause the reality is at the moment, you can go down to Bunnings by two

nail gardens, go boom, boom, boom.

I'm a carpenter.

Absolutely.

And we don't want that.

That's reality.

You can do it.

The role of, we, we, I can just imagine Matt doing that.

That's, I'm a carpenter.

That's the great thing about radio, isn't it?

Uh, the visuals.

I think we, we absolutely need more licensed trades.

Uh, we need more licensed trades and we may need, uh, more people who

aren't necessarily licensed working to support those other functions

that don't require a licensed trade.

And, and so that's, that's the balancing act here.

It's not about taking away from one workforce into another.

It's actually about even more people.

Construction is currently one of the largest, um, employers in the country.

It should be the largest, right?

It should be the largest because we have the opportunity.

In order to meet those housing targets to actually do things

that are a little bit different.

When you think about the value add that you have from building

efficiently and sustainably, you're also . Minimizing the risk for people to

come, have to come back and fix things.

In 20 years time, I did my own, uh, renovation of my place.

I had a California bungalow.

We, about five years ago, we went all electric.

I had to educate pretty much every trade that came in

about what I was trying to do.

So the plumbers and the electricians, none of them knew how

to install hot water, heat pump.

I, um, I had to explain why I was not, I was getting off gas and now, you know,

five years down the track, there are some businesses that are now pitching.

Exactly the, the, the service that I was providing to the trades.

Yeah.

And they were saying we, we can do the whole thing.

So full

dis, full disclosure, I have a small share in, uh, goodbye gas.

There you go.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

So

the thing is, this is where licensing is so important because you can

hold those people to be accountable, the people who are installing

them accountable to upskill.

'cause at the moment, once you finish your apprenticeship.

And you become like, that's it.

There's no, you don't have to upskill to be, maintain yourself as a carpenter.

No.

You can just be like, that's it.

And I, and I think that's a huge barrier to improving the market.

Do,

do you know what, like what's, what's mildly frustrating about this conversation

is that the answers are there.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Like I feel like, you know, just in this 25, 30 minute discussion,

like we've kind of uncovered that.

the answers to a lot of these problems, but like, it just seems

so hard and slow to actually implement any of these changes.

Who are the barriers?

Who are the barriers?

it's not an economic barrier, but it's a, um, it's an economic environment, which

I mentioned before, which is people will still build houses and, buy houses in

the way that they have because they can.

Right.

That's the first thing.

So until the, until, it's.

more, uh, either affordable or financially attractive to move to a different model.

People, majority of people will still go with what they currently have

available or do things in the same way.

'cause change happens, when you have disruption, um, followed by

a pattern of improved performance.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you need to both disrupt the current system, but you need to do it in such

a way that you can embed the new model

but there's one problem that I also see is that to get into teaching and educating,

you want people like us Absolutely.

Teaching, I'm sorry.

Later on a part of the diploma.

So, and, but, but sorry, go and paying us.

Sorry.

Like paying us good money to come in.

'cause we've got the experience, but the barrier is like the, the

teaching degree and I don't wanna sit there correcting paperwork.

Yeah.

And it might be coming in for a day to talk about like the intricacy

of building a passive house.

Hamish might be able to come and talk about his experience with prefabrication.

Brad can talk about his experience in anything you want to talk about.

Yeah.

Anything.

But the thing is you want these people talking, not someone who now sits, and

no disrespect to anyone who's teaching.

Uh, an apprenticeship.

They've just been stuck teaching the apprenticeship, apprenticeship and don't

have the background knowledge in contracts most up to that regulations or changes.

We need

inspirational teachers.

That's what Yeah.

Yeah.

absolutely not saying that everyone isn't like

I would tell you that I think most teachers would say the same thing Yeah.

Actually that they want I know they do.

Yeah.

They absolutely, they are hungry for.

The industry engagement, they're hungry for people that are, um, on projects,

working on tools or, or planning new projects to come in and work with

them, with their students, , their apprentices and across not just

apprenticeships, but I think across other disciplines that support the industry.

So, you know, I don't, I don't think about, building and construction trades

as defined and separate from, say, manufacturing or business or planning.

'cause I'm seeing those links happening all the time with the

interesting actions happening.

But I'll tell you what.

Um, anyone that is interested in doing something new who's in a current

school, is interested in the people that are doing the new stuff out there.

Mm-hmm.

So how do we keep people interested in.

These trades and pathways we've gotta bring the industry in.

I, I'm a big believer, and I'd say this to all of my TAFE and university colleagues,

um, we need to be opening the doors more and actually making it easier for people

that are actually doing interesting stuff.

To be able to step in.

That doesn't mean you have to be the trade teacher in a tafe, you can be

the guest speaker, , who gets paid to come in and share your knowledge.

Next time we do an open day, we need to then offer a spot to the tafe.

To bring, to bring the students through.

Yeah.

What do you mean is because it, there's, well, you know how we're doing open days.

We have like two or three different things.

We have,

we do opens constantly on projects to bring clients,

architects through Like do, do

one with the tafe?

Yeah, absolutely.

Look, because it, it is how do you adequately expose people from certain

parts of the industry that we need to be trained in building better?

You know, if you do your apprenticeship for a volume.

Framing carpenter.

Yeah.

That's all you're gonna be exposed to, the people in that system might

want to be exposed to something else, but how do they get exposed

without leaving where they are?

Finding a niche job for one of us, three builders or scared they might lose their

job because their boss finding out.

Yeah.

How do you level the playing field for the people that haven't rolled into their

apprenticeship with Matt or Hamish or me?

Yeah, absolutely.

And, and I think that that is a, um, let's call it a flaw in the current

system, which is that, you know, the exposure to different ways of work.

It can often be limited in the way in which the, the delivery

of the, of the trader happens in the apprenticeship environment.

So this is the call out that you're making to rethink what an apprenticeship

is, what it should look like, but also what is the lead and what is the

lead out, and also what other things do we need to be putting in the mix.

So one of the questions we're asking at the moment, it takes between five and

10 years to change a training package.

Right.

It is a, I reckon can change it over in a week.

Yeah.

Well, no, the challenge that you've gotta be, you've gotta

be straight up with it though.

And there are federal bodies, in fact, um, we've had great people from those

bodies here with this, this, uh, last couple of days who are grappling with

this challenge, which is, is that every training package is, um, you know, a thing

that is both partly owned by governments, but it's also owned by, um, unions.

It's also owned by employers.

So there is a tripartite.

Kind of function there where everyone has a stake in what

this thing is and what it does.

And you've gotta navigate the change with everyone.

We talked before, I You start

your own though.

Why can't you go, you know what?

We're gonna create our own and we're gonna have a whole different system.

And if you don't want to like another option, Uberization of training.

Yeah, but that's, that's the reality.

You look, you look at supermarkets, they've been disrupted by Amazon.

You look at the taxi industry, they've been disrupted by Uber and

Diddy and all these other things.

Every industry is currently being disrupted.

Education has stayed exactly the same.

Uh, it, it has and it hasn't.

So, so I think trade education maybe hasn't shifted as much and

I think, but I'll give you a good example of where it has changed.

uh, let's go back 40 years.

You were taught 40, 50 years.

You go back, you were taught how to hammer a nail into a wall, right?

Then you're taught how to use a nail gun.

The, the competency is actually about being able to put a nail into a wall.

The methodology and the technique changes.

Now, you should be taught about how to operate one of those machines

as in addition to using the nail gun and, and using the hammer

you need to operate the machine.

Which you use with your smartphone that can put 28 nails in a wall, um, in,

uh, in, you know, 30 seconds, right?

Um, with a level of accuracy that none of us could, could deliver,

you know, in that timeframe.

I reckon Brad could put,

here's the reality with this though.

Yeah.

Like, manufacturing is not viable in Australia.

We, we, we can't even produce cars.

We spoke about this with someone before.

We, we, China and things, and Vietnam and all these other countries are

so com like price competitive.

We physically aren't gonna be able to keep up.

Well, they're, they're, they're competitive for those, those products.

So we may, so we already see, um, manufactured components being

imported into Australia from, from other jurisdictions where it is

cheaper to do those things, but.

There are is a whole area of, of offsite manufacturing for,

for components of houses.

I mean, look at roof trusses, who actually constructs a

roof truss on site these days?

All of South Australia.

All of Australia.

All of wa.

All of wa.

But

not, not in Victoria, right?

No.

No.

So, so we've seen, we've seen that move to an off offsite construction model.

Um, you know, there are a whole lot of components that

already happen in that way.

We'll see more of these things, and that's where there's a,

there's a, a productivity uplift.

Now that doesn't solve the problem that you're talking about though,

which is that we actually need, uh, we need to rethink who we train

and what we train and how we train.

The TAFE system has a, a big role to play.

I will, I will share one thing with you, which, uh, we've been talking

about here, which is that both the state and federal governments have

committed a combined $50 million.

To set up a, um, a center of excellence in the future of housing construction.

I knew about this before was released.

One of my friends

told me what was they was saying,

and uh, and we are setting this up at Melbourne Polytechnics Heidelberg campus.

So it's a center of excellence in the future of housing construction, but it

has the particular remit of how we work with industry absolutely embedded in

thinking about how we reshape training.

So your question before, why don't we go and do our own thing?

How do we are?

Yeah.

We are doing that, but we're at the start of that journey.

So this discussion is exactly the sort of discussion that we need to be having

with a thousand people across the industry over the next six months, right?

Because they need to understand where things can go, but they also

need to tell us, you know what, you know, what would make a difference

if we could change this thing?

Yeah.

And then that's part of the messaging that that actually government's hungry to hear.

They want to hear.

What are the changes?

I'll give you an example.

In Victoria, I only heard this, um, two days ago by a very large, Australian

developer who does a lot of projects all around the country who said that

Victoria is the one jurisdiction where, um, uh, in terms of modular housing,

for instance, um, you need to be able to demonstrate, um, if you, you're

gonna lease land to someone, then they're gonna put a house on top of it.

That arrangement can only, um, operate if you can demonstrate that you

can remove the house within a day.

It's basically the caravan rule.

Right.

In other states, you don't have to demonstrate that it

can be removed within one day.

So, well that you're saying Victoria's behind times

that, that barrier.

Oh wow.

Surely, surely that barrier though can be like removed overnight.

Well, I'm, I'm now determined to go and get that barrier removed, right.

Because I only learn about it.

Yeah.

But this is, I think where there's nanny State Victoria and I feel like's.

We are the, we're our own worst enemy.

Like we,

but

Go mate.

Just x me,

I don't wanna say, but I'll tell, I'll tell you.

If having sat on the other side of this and having, um, been involved

in government advisory and being involved in local government myself.

Um, you don't know what, you don't dunno, and you dunno that it's a

problem until it becomes a problem.

So we think about how we create, affordable portable

housing, or key worker housing.

I'll give you, this is the best example I can give you.

We have these big projects that are desperate for workers in different

parts of parts of the state, that one of the challenges is, is

actually the available housing.

So when you think about rural, rural and regional communities on

infrastructure projects, but there's nowhere that people can live.

If we could solve that problem by someone, you know, someone being able

to, like a Mod Scap lease land and a mod scape type operator brings in.

You know, 20, um, 20 modular units and can set them up for

the 12 months for the project.

We can solve this planning rule about how you do that.

Then you've got a workforce that can actually be set up there.

And it is, it's not a FIFA workforce.

It's actually a bunch of people that set up and, and support the

project to, they bring a bit of, um, economic activity to the town.

So they, so they, and then you've

got an asset that could move to the next town, but they've gotta

be able to be moved in one day.

Yeah,

so, so, so, you know, I would be saying Mike Scape if you want, if

you wanna sponsor the podcast, like

the, this

is,

yeah.

But, but, but what I'm saying is that, you know, you know, if, if

I'm, um, I'm helping set our, our center, one of the first things I'm

gonna be talking to our local, um, planning friends is what are the 10

things that would make a difference?

So what are the three things that would make a difference to

transform housing productivity?

See, I think I honestly, I've one opinion in a lot of things.

And I think the biggest restriction in the way that we build and the

advancements in building we are, is the planning side of things.

They limit so much heritage and planning are the biggest, uh, delays

in advancement in our industry.

yeah, it's, yeah.

Not solving the TAFE problem, the educate.

We've

covered a lot here.

Yeah.

And knew you were worried about, we'd have 30, 40 minutes.

We're at 40 minutes on the dot.

So let's wrap that up.

Um, I'm, we'd love to keep Thank, thanks for, we'd love to

keep this conversation going.

I'd actually like to have

a proper sit down, sit down with the SBA team too.

I'll introduce you to the COO and we can, you know, see how we can help.

I mean, we'd love to be involved in that facility.

Yeah.

I think it'd be amazing.

Great.

We, we, we are looking at who we need to partner with and talk to, so yeah.

Thank you very much.

Great.

Thanks very much guys.

Awesome.

Cheers.

Appreciate it.