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Finding Balance and Fulfillment in Your RevOps Career - Danielle Marquis
Episode 45 • 28th August 2024 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
00:00:00 00:47:02

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This week I sit down with seasoned RevOps executive Danielle Marquis to explore the evolving landscape of the discipline and how professionals can find balance and fulfillment in their careers.

Danielle shares insights from her 15 years of experience in the field, discussing how RevOps has changed over time and how the role is increasingly being positioned as a critical function within organizations. We dive into the best practices for structuring RevOps teams, prioritizing work, and aligning internal strategies for maximum impact.

As the conversation unfolds, we also explore some personal aspects of career growth, with Danielle offering candid advice on how to carve out a fulfilling path in RevOps and find your happy place at work.

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About Today's Guest

With 15 years of experience in revenue operations, Danielle Marquis has lead global teams supporting sales, marketing, and customer success functions in achieving their goals and growing the business. Her super power is connecting the dots across various business decisions and technologies to drive and design a more operationalized path to GTM.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniellemarquis/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:06] - Evolution of RevOps in the past 15 years
  • [11:08] - Positioning RevOps internally
  • [16:46] - Team structure
  • [26:16] - Planning and prioritization
  • [30:40] - Finding your happy place at work
  • [39:40] - What’s next in RevOps
  • [43:46] - RevOps vs. GTM Ops

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Transcripts

Justin Norris:

Welcome to RevOps FM everyone.

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We're continuing our series today,

looking at a truly unified RevOps

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teams, teams that support all the GTM

functions of the business from marketing

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to sales to customer success, and the

goal here really is to understand better

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how this unified structure can work.

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The advantages it brings and of

course, any challenges as well.

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And today we're speaking with

Danielle Marquis, who is VP of revenue

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operations at Zappy, where she's been

for nearly five and a half years.

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And Danielle, I was studying your LinkedIn

profile and noticed you've actually

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been in the rev ops world for 15 years

this month, if my math is correct.

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Which is incredible.

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so I'm really interested to dig

into how the RebOp space has

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evolved during that time as well.

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So first off, welcome to the show.

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Thanks for joining me today.

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Danielle Marquis: thanks for having

me, excited to dig in on this.

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Justin Norris: Maybe we can just,

start with that place because, I

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noticed your first role, I think

sales operations analyst:

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now here you are 15 years

later, June of:

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Talk to me about how the RevOps

space such as it is has evolved.

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I don't think that term was even

around in:

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that journey look like for you?

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Danielle Marquis: Definitely not.

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the more networking and events I

go to and folks I meet and talk

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about RevOps, the more I realize

I've had a more unique path.

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Ironically, it's always been in the

sales, marketing, ops space, but a lot of

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folks now in RevOps didn't start there.

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so really I graduated college and

didn't have a job to pay for grad

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school or my apartment in Boston.

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So I got this contractor role.

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It was moving files from one

intranet to their new intranet,

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really sexy, work there, and I

finished that work pretty early.

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So they started having me do,

data loads into Salesforce.

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And so I was still on an hourly

contractor wage at this point.

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And I, probably not a lot of

people tell you they got to

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fell in love with Salesforce.

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We had doing data loads

and data cleansing.

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But for me, I had done an it minor.

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I had started grad classes that were

focusing on process optimization.

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And I started really seeing

all the pieces come together,

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which was fascinating to me.

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I always thought I would

get into actual sales.

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My, PI definitely always was a sales

indicator, but, for me, I always fell in

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love with the backend and how we could

make the workflows, the sales reps were

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doing more and more efficient and really

hit on the goals we were trying to drive.

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some of those first data loads

I was doing was literally, we

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called them blitz Wednesdays.

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And we would load 20 leads

into each sales rep's queue.

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And once they got through those on cold

calling, we'd load more into their queues.

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And I was like, this does not seem

like an efficient nor effective way.

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we're not capturing what's

happening to these leads.

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I'm just, I just keep

dumping more leads in.

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so that's where I really got curious.

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I joined as many networking groups

as I could that were mainly for

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sales management at the time.

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And, around that time, marketing

automation started to come to fruition.

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Not anything like it is today either.

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but you know, the first tools were coming

out and they were taking the concepts of

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a sales CRM and applying it to marketing.

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And then I think it's a really ironic

thing that we've seen in the past,

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probably eight years that come back

to sales as sales engagement tools.

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everything we came out with, with

thought leadership and nurture

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campaigns is all coming back into

workflow management for sales.

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So.

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It's kind of a fun, cool,

interconnected circle.

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but yeah, that's how I got started.

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And then as each of those different

go to market teams started realizing

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the power of having an operational

minded, tech minded, data minded person

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on their team, supporting them to

that, get to those strategic goals.

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and the more you saw those spaces

growing and, I think naturally we

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can talk into like how that fully

came back into the RevOp space.

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but that's how I at least came up here.

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Justin Norris: It's funny.

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I remember vividly in my first

operations job, essentially rebuilding

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a CRM through CSVs and data loads.

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And it was one of the most stressful

things I've ever done, like

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updating thousands and thousands

of activities and reparenting them.

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And so it must be some, kind

of sadistic rite of passage for

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operations people to have to do that.

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Um,

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Danielle Marquis: I'm 15 years in

and I'm a vice president and I have

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the whole department and, uh, My team

will hear me say, don't worry, I'll,

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I'll cleanse that section of data.

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I needed something to do this afternoon

that wasn't like totally mind intensive.

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Justin Norris: just relax, kick back and

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It's good.

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along that journey, do you recall

perhaps at what point this notion

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of like rev ops came about?

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Enter the chat.

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because it's, kind of obviously as in

all things in this space, sort of like

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a rebranding and vendors are using

it, but there is a real thing there.

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I think whether we call it rev ops

or GTM ops, we can talk about that.

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but do you recall when that

sort of bubbled to the surface?

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Danielle Marquis: Yeah, I know for,

at least on my path, I had exposure

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to those other areas of operations

and as I started taking on new, larger

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roles, around the time I started at

Carbonite, which, I think that was like

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2000, maybe 15, around that time, I

came in, they needed a sales ops hire.

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I had been working previously for

Iron Mountain doing just Salesforce.

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Business analysts work.

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So I got exposed to a lot of different

teams and what the needs those teams had.

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And I realized a lot of the outcomes

they were trying to drive could be solved

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with similar workflows or processes I

had been trying to optimize for sales.

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So when I moved over to Carbonite

and I had to stand up a sales ops

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department, had just gone from B to

C to B to B and they were still doing

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a lot of consumer purchase tactics.

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And so I focused on obviously helping

stand up the sales team and what that

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would look like, making sure the CRM was

actually producing value for the company.

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And.

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when I got there, I don't think

anyone had logged into it.

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They just had this

automated lead flow thing.

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And then, their manager would literally

Skype the incoming leads to someone

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else in Skype and have them call.

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And there was no tracking of any of this.

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So I got them to actually use

the CRM, use it for their own

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good, not just more admin work.

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And then I started realizing we

were having really a lot of trouble

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getting the top of funnel in.

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And I was like, what?

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What are we doing on the marketing side?

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And there was really no one

focused on B2B marketing.

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Strategies or techniques.

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They were still blowing a ton of

advertising money on public radio and all

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the things that worked really well to make

them the big company as a consumer brand.

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And so, I learned everything I could

about marketing automation, thought

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leadership, what marketing ops really

looks like and started building that out.

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So that was my first clicking moment.

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Was that carbonite?

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And then I started to see that grow

throughout my networking events, talking

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to other operational professionals who

are having challenges, like I'm doing

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all this cool stuff over on the sales

side, but I don't feel like I have

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the same counterpart on marketing.

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So it's a disconnected, you know,

we're driving a really great lead

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process, but we're not getting the

right volume or the right kind of leads.

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And we don't have any insight into that.

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So, I'd say around 2013, you

started seeing maybe some bubbles.

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I really think Covid probably had the

real tipping point for calling it rev ops,

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getting people really excited about it.

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You saw a bunch of people turn virtually

and having to actually put more content

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out versus having events and having

the same people show up to them.

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and so, I, I still am seeing folks

just rebranding sales ops as a rev ops.

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I think we're gonna start to see that.

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Smooth out a little bit more over the

next couple of years, because the question

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really is, what is the scope of rev ops?

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Where should you play?

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and I think that's what is on our onus

at the company is we're going into to

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help just like you're doing thought

leadership for a prospect or customer.

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We need to drive that thought

leadership and help the rest of the

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company get on board with where we

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could help be the glue for them.

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Justin Norris: So focusing on that point.

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I've noticed, there are some

common paths into this space.

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Some people, in sales ops in

particular come in through finance.

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In your case, it feels more like

through the Salesforce CRM world and

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marketing ops, it's all over the map.

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It's like theater majors

and, English majors like me.

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So we're a weird bunch, but, in your

case, it seems more through the,

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the technical side, how has your

perspective on like what you do.

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And what it's for evolved as your

scope has expanded over the years.

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Danielle Marquis: Yeah, that's a great

question, and super relevant for how

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my role even in my last five and a half

years here at Zappy has evolved, but I

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do take a more technical lens, like my

superpower is connecting the dots between

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journeys, teams, through that intersection

of technology and data insights.

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always been enamored by tech, back

to the AIM days and, all those lovely

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dial ups and burning CDs and everything

I could do to learn about that.

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And I feel like that was my

way of incorporating that into

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the value I bring to a company.

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But it's also really powerful.

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And especially in this RevStack

space, it has exploded.

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Salesforce.

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Really led the charge with all their

partner economy of all these point

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solutions you needed to buy because

Salesforce didn't do it themselves,

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but everyone went to Salesforce.

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And then you see now in the last

three years, and you're only going

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to see it more expand with those

big name companies is the platform.

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I ties Asian.

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I just probably made that word up

and it was very difficult to say.

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So I'm not going to say it again, but,

uh, you know, everyone's moving to figure

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back out the platform because you have,

finance teams cutting down budgets.

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It's all over the place.

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It's a lot easier to sell in a

platform sale than I need five

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tools to do this one process.

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And, it just really, it's been more, the

more data and technology out there, the

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more productivity suck it is for your

operations teams to try to figure out the

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integrations, keep data hygiene across all

those different systems, keep enablement.

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Streamlined across all those different

systems, and that's been a challenge.

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It's happy even, but it's also because

I've taken that technical insight.

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It's helped broaden my horizon of who else

at a company we can help impact change

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with, and impact revenue or cost savings.

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So I've worked our support teams to try

to figure out, they're interacting day to

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day with our go to market frontline teams.

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How are we making sure their interactions

and workflows and technology are up to par

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Justin Norris: And you mentioned

some of the thought leadership and

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evangelizing what you do internally.

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How do you try to position your

team to the rest of the company?

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Danielle Marquis: Yeah, always

the beautiful challenge.

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I think the big topic in RevOps space is

like, how do you get a seat at the table?

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Right.

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I'm not gonna stand here and

say we've nailed it and it's

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a constant growth journey.

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we just had our RevOps

offsite here in Boston.

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So it was an onsite, but, we had a bunch

of people from all over the country

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and London come in and just really talk

about some of that exact challenge.

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And, for us, we have set up special

meetings where it brings all the

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go to market leaders together

to talk about tough topics.

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And we work through solutions

with those go to market leaders.

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So we're helping to make a name

for ourselves that we can guide

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them through problem statements.

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What is the impact of that problem?

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What's the optimal solution

to drive the optimal outcome?

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And just trying to even reframe from,

I'm sure a lot of folks listening might

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have the same challenge where you have CS

leader come up to you with their solution.

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To the problem they

perceive that they have.

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They haven't really identified what

the root cause of the problem is,

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but there's a lot of chatter going

on and it's gotta be a big problem.

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We just, here's how we solve it.

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So our challenge and how we're trying to

get that seat at the table is reframing

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those problem statements with the leaders.

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So, Hey, I hear you.

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I can imagine you're having a

really frustrating time here.

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Let's try to understand why

that's happening before we just

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change an account team structure.

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and sometimes, unfortunately

it's us bringing the.

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not saying I told you so, but

bringing a failed experiment back to

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leadership and saying, Hey, here's how

we were recommending to approach it.

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Had we gone down that route?

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Here's what we could have

done differently or avoided.

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here's how we recommend

to fix the problem.

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So something like

account structure, right?

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a great example of that is, you know, you.

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Might have most of your revenue

coming from your existing customers.

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Most classic SaaS thing.

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It's easy because you know the

people and it's easy to do that job.

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It's harder to go find new people

to make more money and expand

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that share of wallet at a company.

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And so we had that challenge

and it was like, okay, we, are

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really bad at expansion revenue

in these existing customers.

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And we know that's a warmer path than

trying to get a bunch of new logos.

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So we're going to just

create an expansion team.

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And then one of the problems we already

had was how does account management

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and CS work really well together?

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So now you've added a third player into

that account team and within a quarter,

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we were quickly able to see, okay, that

adding another person to an existing

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problem was not the proper solution, but.

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Maybe there was some skillset challenges.

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We need to address that with enablement.

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You know, maybe there was some

prioritization issues with what

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we were giving those teams for

insights or what to focus on.

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We can address those things.

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So, hopefully that answered a little bit,

but those are some ways we're trying to

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build that trust and build that value.

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And build the confidence

in coming and working with

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us versus like,

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I think a lot of teams I've

dealt with that have never worked

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with RevOps, you step in and ask

some discovery questions, right?

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And they're like, Oh God, this

is slowing everything down.

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Avoid Danielle at all costs.

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She's going to slow down any progress.

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And I was like, no, I'm actually

trying to ask some important

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questions so we can move

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Justin Norris: It's, it's a retraining,

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I think, especially if you have leaders

that are more in the like rev ops is here,

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like, you know, generate my report for me

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and, load

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those CSVs.

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And can you get me a coffee while

you're at like, viewing the

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team as a service provider and

changing that dynamic to, want a

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partnership and sort of consultative

collaboration, have you found that

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once you have Broken the ice there

that people are generally receptive, or

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is it a significant change management

cycle that you're going through?

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Danielle Marquis: I would say it has

been a significant change management

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cycle, but we are seeing progress.

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the other thing is the team was

a lot smaller in previous years.

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So when you don't have the bandwidth to

pick up all those challenges, you are

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slowing down progress on some areas.

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so we were able to make more of an

argument to leadership team that we

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needed folks to support some of these

other areas that, the classic thing,

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when you start bringing operations

into a rev ops combined team, we still

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actually have a CS ops person, a sales

ops person, a marketing ops person.

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Um, The idea is that they're non bias.

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They're sitting with us

because they can see all

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sides of what's

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going on with the

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data, the

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insights,

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and the subjective side

of all that, right?

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And they're not necessarily running at

whatever the head of sales wants, the

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head of CS wants, the head of marketing

wants without talking amongst each other.

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And so we have been able to Adjust

the majority of those leaders, but

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then you have a new leader come into

leadership team That's learning the

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company learning your teams learning How

to adjust how they're used to working

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and what made them successful and hired

at this company And you have to kind

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of start from scratch again, right?

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So From our perspective our job's

never done And it's always going to be

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a component of our job description is

ensuring that we are working towards

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being that strategic partner, not a

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customer support.

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I think I joked at a,

the last conference I

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went to that someone asked us

to say what we did without using

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the word sales or marketing.

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And I said, babysat, which sounds a little

rude, but when you look at some of the,

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the things that come into that point, if

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Justin Norris: it's a, it

is a perennial challenge.

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and so you touched on your, team

structure and why don't we go there?

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Maybe you can just outline for us

quickly, like what is the structure today?

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And I'm curious where it evolved from.

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Was there a unification at

some point, like a big change

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Danielle Marquis: the last unification

actually happened this year.

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So five and a half years ago I came in,

it was myself in a Salesforce admin and

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it was kind of figure out what we need

for rev ops before we go give you a

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bunch of hires or buy a bunch of shit.

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And so I appreciate that because the

previous company I'd been at, I came

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in, I had the same directive and

within two months, I I must have shown

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enough value because all of a sudden

they wanted me to hire ten people.

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And I was like, I don't have

enough clarity on what those

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ten roles would do just yet.

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I could tell you two people right

now what we need, but it's probably

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another quarter of doing Discovery and

trying to fix some of the stuff that's

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already there before I could confidently

say what to do with the other eight.

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And it was like, nope, we're hiring them,

you got the roles, if you don't hire

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them, you lose them, and so we hired and

we figured it out, and it Had some chaos.

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But we worked it through.

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And when I came to Zappy, that was

something that I was really excited

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that they maintained the, like, Hey,

get a lay of the land and really be

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the recommender of what we need here.

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So the next hire was an enablement hire,

which actually we took over from sales.

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It was a sales manager that.

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Quite frankly, just loved onboarding

new reps and would rather help

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upscale the reps around him than sell.

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And so that was a, an easy transition.

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And so he ended up heading up our

enablement for the last four years.

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And so from there, we were a

really lean team for my first

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good two and a half years here.

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And around the fall, 2020, I finally got.

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an influx of folks to join.

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So when we were able to get those

roles approved, because we tracked

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all of the incoming requests and

projects and, bandwidth that we needed

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for each of these areas, we decided

to split our rev ops into pillars.

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So with our RevOps team, we have a

performance pillar, which is your

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analysts, they're analyzing everything

around our funnel metrics, sales

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metrics, your CS revenue metrics,

marketing metrics, and then we have our

341

:

systems team, which is focusing on

342

:

the whole, how do we optimize, integrate?

343

:

And, ensure fit for

purpose of our RevStack.

344

:

and then we also have our

enablement team, which is,

345

:

designated around our fails CS space

346

:

Justin Norris: and within those

347

:

pillars,

348

:

are there kind of like a stack bar chart?

349

:

Do you have

350

:

like marketing

351

:

ops, sales ops, CS ops

within them, or are there

352

:

people that

353

:

cover multiple

354

:

scopes?

355

:

Danielle Marquis: Yeah.

356

:

So we have a few folks

that, can do it all.

357

:

So to say, not a lot to be honest.

358

:

And that's actually one of our

topics of our offsite of like, does

359

:

our structure still make sense?

360

:

Are people getting the most out

of the structure, even on our

361

:

team for professional growth?

362

:

Because we do have a dedicated

CS ops director, right?

363

:

And he was sharing that, you know,

I used to do a lot more technology

364

:

focused stuff in my last job.

365

:

And here I'm focusing more on

reporting and analytics and some

366

:

program management for our CS team.

367

:

And he just thinks, like, I don't

have time to do the tech stuff, and

368

:

we have a team that is dedicated

to it, so I don't really need to.

369

:

but he wants to flex those muscles, right?

370

:

So that's the evolution for our own

team we're trying to work in, is how do

371

:

you create more of those cross skillset

sharing and enablement for our own team?

372

:

So that no one feels like they're like,

Zappy is now gonna be atrophieding, right?

373

:

but then I, my marketing ops hire came

from a bit more of a diverse background

374

:

and came in and he really wants to

focus on the marketing side, but then

375

:

eventually get more generalist rev ops.

376

:

I will admit it's been a

challenge to figure out how best.

377

:

To support turning someone that's

been pillar focused or team specific

378

:

focus into a more generalist rev ops,

because their inclination is to first

379

:

think about a sales metric, right?

380

:

Or I need to get this out and

then CS is an afterthought.

381

:

But what I've been trying to add to our

team's dynamic is, Hey, director of sales

382

:

ops, you want to roll out this process.

383

:

Have you connected with our

director of CS Ops to see where

384

:

there's a CS synergy there?

385

:

Or, hey, we want to roll out a CSQL.

386

:

That's only going to be successful if we

also bring along the account management

387

:

team because what actually happened

when we launched it was we launched

388

:

CSQLs To our cs team great idea, right?

389

:

They're talking to these users all

the time they're gonna get more

390

:

of those tidbits that of Sales

triggers than a sales rep might get

391

:

having an actual sales conversation.

392

:

So that was our way of saying.

393

:

Hey A little alley oop for our sales

team because the more they bring in,

394

:

the more revenue CS can burn down.

395

:

And so it's a like nice synergy

there, but then it was like an

396

:

afterthought to tell the AMs about this.

397

:

So they started getting these CSQL alerts.

398

:

They had no idea what to do with them.

399

:

They were close losing them,

400

:

creating their own opportunities.

401

:

it was more chaotic, but

402

:

the idea was correct.

403

:

but we needed to ourselves

have that synergy better.

404

:

And so those are, that's like my favorite

example to use with the team of like, Hey,

405

:

had we worked together to launch this, we

could have seen a lot more value earlier

406

:

Justin Norris: I love that you have

407

:

a performance pillar and you call it that.

408

:

Like people often

409

:

have

410

:

analysts, but I find

411

:

that the way that at least that

412

:

they're positioned And

413

:

talking about

414

:

it.

415

:

It's kind of, you know,

they will run reports.

416

:

They'll provide

417

:

information

418

:

sometimes as requested, sometimes

419

:

proactively, but having the autonomy or

the responsibility to proactively attempt

420

:

to drive performance is not always there.

421

:

It seems more rare.

422

:

Talk about how that works.

423

:

and the sorts of, how they think

about their job relative to

424

:

performance and driving impact.

425

:

Danielle Marquis: We definitely have

an element of the reactive and I

426

:

will say our, sales ops director,

I think they thought at offsite

427

:

was our head of sales golf caddy.

428

:

which actually you could compare the

two cause he should be, supporting

429

:

the strategy to sink a hole in

one, but, uh, anyways, yeah.

430

:

And the performance element of that.

431

:

It's not just building reports and

dashboards and delivering what's asked

432

:

to them, or even saying, Hey, I'm, I

want to get ahead of this metric over

433

:

here, but it's looking at what are our

company strategies, where are our pain

434

:

points, what are we doing really well,

everything that might not even be like,

435

:

okay, here's our marketing funnel.

436

:

But, you know, we're seeing poor

engagement rates on our outbound team.

437

:

an easy thing to do and a bunch of people

have is point at the technology or a point

438

:

at our domain credibility or all these

things that aren't something that's more

439

:

subjective, which is, and that's what our

performance pillar does start to look at.

440

:

Okay.

441

:

What are we looking at for subject lines?

442

:

What titles are you reaching out to?

443

:

So look deeper, not just the numbers

you're looking at, but really what are

444

:

the things that are beyond the numbers?

445

:

and how are those

contributing to the numbers?

446

:

So, okay.

447

:

look at the cohort of titles you're

reaching out to and how frequently

448

:

and if we adjust these titles More

towards our persona over here.

449

:

Are you

450

:

going to see higher engagement rates or

451

:

hey?

452

:

We just implemented six cents in q4 that

has some account scoring we could be

453

:

utilizing to prioritize which contacts

at those accounts you reach out to

454

:

rather than blasting all 50 contacts

455

:

Justin Norris: And to me, that

456

:

example is a good case

457

:

in point of why a

458

:

unified structure can work, or at least

one in which there is a division of labor.

459

:

Because if you are responsible

460

:

for

461

:

systems and bug tickets and, daily

support requests, like that sort

462

:

of stuff is always a problem.

463

:

More of a luxury unless there's like a

really pressing fire and you know Somebody

464

:

is an executive is really making it a

priority But otherwise it tends to get

465

:

pushed to the side and here you have

people that it sounds like have the mind

466

:

share and the time To actually really

focus on that which I think is great

467

:

Danielle Marquis: yeah, time

management, I think, is a challenge

468

:

for any role, to be honest.

469

:

Especially RevOps.

470

:

I like to think of RevOps as, I

always used to train sales reps

471

:

and say, Hey, you're a book of

business, you're a little, you're a

472

:

GM of this portion of Zappy, right?

473

:

You are the CEO or GM of this.

474

:

Like you have control.

475

:

You need to keep your house clean.

476

:

You need to show revenue on this

and just like operating a company.

477

:

But I really truly believe a RevOps

team is many departments at a company.

478

:

We are the marketers.

479

:

We are the BDRs.

480

:

We are the sales reps.

481

:

We are customer success and

training, implementation, we're

482

:

product, we're BI, so time is,

the most precious element for us.

483

:

and that's something that I

think is always a constant

484

:

battle that we're trying to work

485

:

towards.

486

:

I think the biggest thing our

487

:

team has, um, Um, and just like taking

back control of your calendar, some

488

:

are better than others, I actually

kind of suck at it myself, I'll

489

:

time box it and then I'll just take

a call with whoever needs help.

490

:

Justin Norris: So coming to time it

brings us to planning and prioritization

491

:

and when that sort of thing happens

492

:

And you mentioned, you know,

one of the benefits of the

493

:

unified structures that the

494

:

team

495

:

could kind of plan

496

:

together, at least discuss things together

rather than just being solely responsive

497

:

to the head of their functional area.

498

:

How do you approach that process?

499

:

maybe how often, and, finding that

balance between having that centralized

500

:

planning process and then still ensuring

that those functional leaders feel

501

:

heard, feel that their needs are being

taken care of and that sort of thing.

502

:

Danielle Marquis: Yeah.

503

:

So we have members of our team that

actually sit in to the different, uh,

504

:

departmental leadership team meetings,

and then enablement actually joins in and

505

:

does specific rep level trainings as well.

506

:

And, feedback loops.

507

:

and then we also have a biweekly, what we

call the go to market, leadership team.

508

:

Where we do start to say, okay,

here's our go to market roadmap.

509

:

Here are the things we really need

to land in Q1, two, three, four.

510

:

here's where we are around it.

511

:

Here's what departments

really need to own it.

512

:

We live and die by the DRI,

direct responsible individual.

513

:

We really try to ensure there is

a DRI on any initiative that gets

514

:

put on that board with a solid

understanding of what are we trying to.

515

:

Drive is an outcome.

516

:

So if you don't have a desired outcome

or clear aligned problem statement,

517

:

It's likely not getting on to our go to

market roadmap Until you work together

518

:

with who you need to to actually make

it an item And we're constantly having

519

:

those prioritization conversations

Whether or not they're in one of those

520

:

already planned meetings, or if we have

to jump on an ad hoc meeting and be

521

:

like, Hey, there's a fire over here.

522

:

if we need to solve it right now, that

means we're going to drop these other

523

:

things we were working on currently.

524

:

it doesn't mean it's the same as a sales

adage of no, doesn't mean no forever.

525

:

It means no for now.

526

:

so it's working through how to.

527

:

Hey, these things will get done, but

probably a month later than you were

528

:

expecting so that we can solve for this.

529

:

Is this really is big of an issue.

530

:

Here's the data we ever had.

531

:

We try to do as much discovery

and have as much evidence behind

532

:

why something should trump another

533

:

priority.

534

:

we

535

:

also have a leadership team

where if things are really not

536

:

working out here, they

hash it out and then.

537

:

Do a top

538

:

down of, Hey, this is

539

:

where we're going to

540

:

go with this initiative.

541

:

This

542

:

initiative is going to

drop off till next quarter.

543

:

Justin Norris: It's one of the

pushbacks that I typically see against

544

:

unification of operations on LinkedIn

is, the functional leaders feeling

545

:

that their

546

:

ops

547

:

isn't

548

:

responsive to them, and then maybe they

549

:

try to claw it back or, you get to

sort of the ITification if you like.

550

:

have you dealt with that at all?

551

:

Like with leaders feeling that way,

552

:

Danielle Marquis: Oh, for sure.

553

:

especially at Zappy where we didn't have.

554

:

I mean, RevOps was me for a few

years, and then we actually had

555

:

functional operational support.

556

:

And it's interesting, our head

of customer, I joke with him all

557

:

the time about this now, because

now we actually have a dedicated

558

:

CSOps person, he feels a lot.

559

:

But my first three years here,

he was like, damn, I just feel

560

:

like all you do is give your time

to sales and it's just not fair.

561

:

And I don't, what do I

need to do differently?

562

:

And I was like, I think it's more

what I need to do differently.

563

:

I wasn't properly communicating all

the things I was doing for the CS team

564

:

because they weren't super visible.

565

:

So when I got to Zappy, the CS

team were glorified CRM admins.

566

:

So we're consumption based SAS.

567

:

So all the projects that we're running

on our platform, which would be Revrec,

568

:

so CS reps were asked to manually input

those as opportunities in Salesforce.

569

:

So that's a massive time suck.

570

:

So I was spending a ton of time,

more time probably than with sales,

571

:

working with product on how do

we, we have this Cadillac of a CRM

572

:

that integrates across technologies

pretty easily at this point in time.

573

:

Um, And why are we not utilizing

the benefits of those integrations?

574

:

Can we automate some of these tasks?

575

:

They're definitely automatable.

576

:

So it was really, I wasn't making my

roadmap or Where I was spending my time

577

:

visible enough or communicating enough.

578

:

So that's the one piece of advice.

579

:

Like you're think you're

communicating enough.

580

:

You're not.

581

:

Justin Norris: how have you

582

:

found

583

:

it?

584

:

Like you were an IC for a while.

585

:

it sounds like wearing all the

586

:

hats and I, know what that world is

like, and then transitioning from that

587

:

to being executive, having a team.

588

:

It was totally different mindset, totally

different scope of responsibilities.

589

:

Has that been a, like, a

challenging journey at all?

590

:

Or how have you found it?

591

:

Danielle Marquis: It is, I'm

the type of personality where I

592

:

think I'll always be in a size of

company where I get my hands dirty.

593

:

I just, I've done a lot of soul

searching in the last couple years

594

:

and I'm like, I just want to focus

on strategy and delivering on that.

595

:

And at the end of the day, we also

had a riff last year, so I went

596

:

back to being a bit of an icy, just

for bandwidth's sake, if we were

597

:

going to keep up with the, road map.

598

:

I, struggle sometimes to get

my head out of the weeds a

599

:

little bit more than I should.

600

:

Um, actually, I had an executive coach

last year who really helped me try to

601

:

rebrand myself internally because you, I

mean, I have sales reps who think I sit

602

:

on finance team right now because we don't

have a deal desk and when people struggle

603

:

around the structure of their deal or

getting it through the system or whatnot,

604

:

they tag in our team and, and I'm the only

one on our team that knows the intricacies

605

:

of the billing and financial side.

606

:

most of my initiatives are on

the strategy side, but then I can

607

:

dive down and actually solution

build from those initiatives.

608

:

I can QA, I can help guide a solution.

609

:

and I usually get tagged

in when my team gets stuck.

610

:

And I, put that out there

to them all the time.

611

:

I, We have a very open

communication and that's something

612

:

I've always enjoyed with managers I

had and what I always want to be for

613

:

my team is just as hyper transparent

as I can be and I'm available i'm

614

:

available but transparent with that time.

615

:

So if I really can't pick something

up, or I can't be there for them,

616

:

they're aware of it ahead of time.

617

:

or if they're going through something,

they know I'm there to step in.

618

:

Maybe they're hitting a roadblock, I'm

619

:

happy to come be the bad guy for a little

620

:

bit.

621

:

I don't want my team to ever feel

like they're on that pushback

622

:

side of the stick too far.

623

:

they have to push back, because, you know.

624

:

With ops, if we didn't push

back, we'd literally never sleep.

625

:

but yeah, just trying to be the right

amount of coach to that team, the right

626

:

amount of strategic vision for the

high initiatives and the right amount

627

:

of being able to get my hands dirty.

628

:

I don't have a great answer

for how I do it successfully.

629

:

Justin Norris: You

mentioned soul searching.

630

:

It's interesting.

631

:

like

632

:

I entered the professional world.

633

:

It looks like around the

634

:

same,

635

:

year as you.

636

:

So similar kind of length of career.

637

:

And I also have, I've

like thought a lot about,

638

:

over

639

:

time, what makes me happy?

640

:

Like the

641

:

sort of

642

:

work, you know,

643

:

where you, you don't feel like it's work.

644

:

You're just really enthusiastic and

645

:

engaged, the sort of work where

it doesn't feel like that.

646

:

And when you, start out,

647

:

you're like,

648

:

You don't really

649

:

realize that working for a 10, 000 person

company is just a completely different

650

:

thing than working for a, three or 400

person company or a 20 person company.

651

:

And I've kind of seen all those

sizes for people that are listening.

652

:

Maybe just, it could be useful to talk

about like what that soul searching

653

:

process was like, how you sort of

identified your happy place because

654

:

maybe not everyone has fully like

made become self aware, I guess,

655

:

of those things within themselves.

656

:

Danielle Marquis: No, it's a great

question and done a lot of that.

657

:

Like I said, recently, a little bit

more actually helping my little sister.

658

:

she got laid off in November

and had to do the same thing.

659

:

Do I stay in, in this tech space?

660

:

Do I go back to pre med?

661

:

Do I, you know, where do I go?

662

:

And it always comes back to me now.

663

:

in my twenties, I, chased success.

664

:

throughout my twenties and early thirties.

665

:

It was like, how can I continue to.

666

:

Evolve my career, whether that

be pay, title, contributions

667

:

to a company, whatnot.

668

:

my sweet spot is around that, like.

669

:

150 to 400 person company.

670

:

I will say that Iron Mountain

was a little bit of a, I had no

671

:

idea how that thing was set up.

672

:

I don't think they do.

673

:

Um, but, just really thinking

about, it sounds so basic, but

674

:

what gets you up in the morning

it's the people I'm working with.

675

:

How motivated are they?

676

:

Are they as passionate about the

success of the company that I am?

677

:

Because if not, I'm going to burn the

crap out and I'm going to feel more

678

:

negative emotions versus like dopamine

rush around the things I'm contributing.

679

:

Like, and I have gotten to that burnout.

680

:

I will say like Zappi has had

several evolutions in the last

681

:

five and a half years, we are not

the same company that I joined.

682

:

And so with that, inevitably

you're going to have.

683

:

Different people you're working with,

with different motivational drivers

684

:

and really trying to come back to

what motivated me in the first place.

685

:

Culture is huge.

686

:

how people first is a company

and is it just marketing or

687

:

are they actually people first?

688

:

Zappy is people first, probably to our

detriment at some points, because there's

689

:

probably some people we, we should have

parted ways with along the path, uh,

690

:

that were low performers that, we are

people first and we give people the

691

:

benefit of the doubt, work life balance.

692

:

And this could just be me getting older,

but life is way more important than work.

693

:

I mean, money is great and it helps

you afford a life that you want.

694

:

but at the end of the day, if.

695

:

You have to skip two meetings to go see

a recital or you, have a gorgeous day

696

:

and you've been working 60 hour weeks

and you want to go to the beach for the

697

:

afternoon, like log off and go do it

and take care of your mental sanity.

698

:

those are things I know I'm never going to

be chastised or judged at Zappy for doing.

699

:

I mean, if I did all the time,

yeah, I'll be judged for it.

700

:

but you know, it's, it's something

where we're really people

701

:

first and that's important.

702

:

The work I'm doing, I like the

balance of being able to make

703

:

strategic recommendations,

704

:

plan out a roadmap, but also actually

pick up some of those initiatives myself.

705

:

some of the soul searching was like,

okay, if I were just sitting in a C

706

:

level position and not really getting my

hands dirty, will I be satisfied enough?

707

:

And I am,

708

:

no longer a competitive athlete, but

I came up as from age three doing

709

:

gymnastics, competitive athletics.

710

:

Like.

711

:

Whatever I put my all into, I needed

to see a tangible result around.

712

:

And so for me, keeping some of that

hands in the game helps me feel that rush

713

:

Justin Norris: Oh, it is.

714

:

I mean, I think it's super important

715

:

because

716

:

yeah, there's certain things like It's

717

:

fine to want a title.

718

:

It's fine to want higher income.

719

:

but you have to understand what

720

:

actually makes you happy in the job.

721

:

And

722

:

there's one thing that I really

appreciated about being in

723

:

the consulting world was you

kind of got a rotating tour of

724

:

duty through companies of all sizes.

725

:

And sometimes you saw that

726

:

like, Oh, these cool brands, it

727

:

would

728

:

like, look so cool on

a resume to work there.

729

:

And then you see inside.

730

:

How like a 10, 000 person company

731

:

works,

732

:

the chaotic and the pace of change

is so slow and everything's about,

733

:

you know, the meeting for the

meeting, for the meeting to make

734

:

the PowerPoint for the next meeting.

735

:

Like

736

:

I was like, okay, I see that I actually,

for me, and some people thrive at

737

:

navigating in that environment.

738

:

And that's, it's, that's a

skillset that I respect very much.

739

:

But you kind of learn

where your happy place is.

740

:

So

741

:

I think it's cool to like

consciously do that process.

742

:

Because I don't think I did for a

743

:

while.

744

:

Danielle Marquis: Yeah,

and I think it's healthy.

745

:

I did not do it, I burnt out

multiple times in my career of just

746

:

literally burning the midnight oil.

747

:

I would wake up, 5.

748

:

30, work out, get to work, come

home, have dinner, open my laptop,

749

:

turn on the TV, and work until 1am.

750

:

And then I would do it all again.

751

:

I'm not gonna lie, doing that didn't

get me the opportunities I got.

752

:

the opportunities I've achieved in my

career could have happened without working

753

:

80 hour weeks on some of these things,

and setting better boundaries up front.

754

:

That's the other thing I have learned is

755

:

like, be in an environment where

756

:

you can set those boundaries and you can

stick to them and people respect that.

757

:

and that's something where, again,

I didn't really think about culture

758

:

or how those folks around you care

about how you show up or whatnot.

759

:

And like here, I have people I've been

760

:

working with

761

:

for five years that will see me on a call

and I'll get a slack and I'll get a hair.

762

:

Is everything okay?

763

:

they just no, no, like a facial change

or I wasn't talking as much cause

764

:

I don't know how to shut up, you're

really quiet on that call, everything.

765

:

Okay.

766

:

and just like those little things you

wouldn't get yet at a bigger company.

767

:

Not

768

:

necessarily.

769

:

I

770

:

mean,

771

:

Justin Norris: That's really nice.

772

:

Danielle Marquis: work friends, but,

yeah, it's, taking stock and taking

773

:

stock continually, because again,

especially if you're in a faster

774

:

moving company, that company that

You started with is not the company

775

:

you're probably currently at still.

776

:

the hard part

777

:

is

778

:

if all of a sudden You look at

that list of what gets me up and

779

:

doesn't get me up in the morning.

780

:

and what doesn't get me up

781

:

is getting higher, right?

782

:

It's hard to leave that situation, but at

783

:

the end of the day, I'll say it again,

the life side of it, the mental side

784

:

of it is so much more important.

785

:

Justin Norris: You can only drain those

786

:

reserves for so long And then you

know you crash and burn at some

787

:

point We've talked about the last 15

788

:

years of

789

:

RevOps.

790

:

Let's talk

791

:

about

792

:

the next 15 years, or probably

793

:

nobody

794

:

knows

795

:

what's going to happen in the

next 15 years, but even the

796

:

next five years would be

797

:

interesting.

798

:

And I'm curious for your take, and you

can take it in any direction you want,

799

:

whether it's the technology, the role of

RevOps within the company and how it will

800

:

expand or perhaps diminish, what are you

seeing and what are you thinking about to

801

:

prepare yourself for the

next phase of your career?

802

:

Danielle Marquis: from an aspect

of evolving where RevOps sits at a

803

:

company, I truly do believe it will

get more of a seat at the table.

804

:

you see the PE firms really focusing

on how strong your operation teams are.

805

:

they're just as.

806

:

and involved with how your rev ops teams

are set up and what they're doing and

807

:

what they're producing as they are with

what target numbers, your sales and CS

808

:

teams and marketing teams are hitting.

809

:

so I think especially in this kind

of like, I guess mid market ish

810

:

world of a lot of PE firms are buying

up a lot of these, SAS companies.

811

:

You're going to see that push more towards

RevOps getting a larger seat at the table.

812

:

They're even having RevOps advisors

start joining in and, being contributors.

813

:

So, that's something I'm

excited to see because it's been

814

:

missing and it's, been a slog.

815

:

It's been really hard to sit

in front of a, CEO and make a

816

:

business proposition about why.

817

:

they should listen to our

recommendation versus just having

818

:

the head of sales yell louder.

819

:

Right.

820

:

so that's something I'm excited to see.

821

:

I'm not even going to touch the AI

subject because I think everyone's

822

:

still trying to figure that out.

823

:

Like I know that every single

webinar and event is like AI, AI.

824

:

I've been playing around with a lot.

825

:

Everyone's still figuring it out.

826

:

It's TBD.

827

:

I like what Gong's doing with their AI.

828

:

I'll say that.

829

:

I think it's intentional and actually

blending into the already processes you're

830

:

doing around deal reviews or call reviews.

831

:

So I hope to see it more

embedded into what we're

832

:

already focused on a little bit.

833

:

We're introducing new things that,

maybe RevOps wasn't the leader on.

834

:

and we can actually use that to

get more of a seat at the table.

835

:

on a technology standpoint of like how

we're managing, I think you're seeing

836

:

a lot more tech savvy RevOps folks.

837

:

Probably coming in more from the

Salesforce admin into more of a

838

:

generalist RevOp space because they see.

839

:

All of the requests coming in and they

start to learn what a good and bad

840

:

process looks like, and they start

to learn what good or bad metrics

841

:

look like, how to actually analyze

a dashboard, not just create one.

842

:

just naturally, in a seeing, I think

RevOps take on more of that go to

843

:

market stack, and be the voice of,

that technology stack a bit more

844

:

vendor management, all that piece.

845

:

like even at Zappy, we just

kicked off a big tech audit.

846

:

And it's really incredible to see the

different people from the, different

847

:

departments that have been nominated to

join this tech audit and the tech audit

848

:

is, yes, auditing all the tech we have at

the company, but is it fit for purpose?

849

:

Do we have redundancies?

850

:

Do we have the proper, security

reviews on the, cause some things were

851

:

brought in five years ago before we

really had a strong data privacy team.

852

:

Now that team is like probably our most.

853

:

Standard operating procedures have

some really cool stuff and they're

854

:

like super easy to work with,

which I know most people probably

855

:

don't say about their data privacy.

856

:

I love them.

857

:

They're one of my favorite

partners internally.

858

:

but with that, you're starting to see

even like folks on our it team that don't

859

:

know any, the first thing about picking

a technology or, true vendor management,

860

:

they're very tech savvy and they can,

861

:

troubleshoot a bunch of technology

862

:

issues, but actually.

863

:

evaluating what the right tech for your

company at this time in your journey is

864

:

and how you might evolve with it or not.

865

:

and then also the ongoing relationship

and vendor management, how are we

866

:

getting the maximum out of this as

we evolve Are we evolving with them?

867

:

I really have felt like rev ops folks are

so much more ingrained in that these days.

868

:

Cause like that's been

a core piece of our job

869

:

, Justin Norris: I, I,

I, think you're right.

870

:

I'm seeing all those things too.

871

:

I think it's a good time to be in RevOps.

872

:

maybe last thing, just, to weigh

in on this RevOps, GTM ops.

873

:

there's a, a push for another

rebranding going on and I'm

874

:

curious for your, take on that.

875

:

Danielle Marquis: you

know, I had a LinkedIn

876

:

post

877

:

about maybe a year ago, actually.

878

:

It might've been like last April.

879

:

I was trying to get

people agitated by that.

880

:

Like, what do you think about GTM ops and

that being the next evolution of RevOps?

881

:

I'm very bullish that

882

:

that's where it's going to

883

:

rebrand

884

:

next.

885

:

My

886

:

post

887

:

got

888

:

no

889

:

engagement, which means I

just actually need a better

890

:

personal

891

:

Justin Norris: You're so, far

ahead of your time that people

892

:

were just like, I can't

even understand this yet.

893

:

Danielle Marquis: Like, what's GTM?

894

:

but yeah, I do think that would be

895

:

a

896

:

natural, for that.

897

:

Justin Norris: Well, such a

pleasure to speak with you today.

898

:

Thanks for sharing about your journey.

899

:

And yeah, hope we'll stay connected

and touch base again soon.

900

:

Danielle Marquis: Thanks for having me.

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