Richard Bowman tells the story of seeds salvaged from great uncle Eric's potting shed. The shed, perched on the Yorkshire moors had been untouched for 20 years when Richard was given the task of clearing it out.

These seeds, stored in Oxo tins and match boxes, sparking memories of a bygone era, lead to a conversation with the Seed Detective, Adam Alexander, who discusses their potential for germination despite their advanced age.

Richard's passion for gardening, is deep rooted and these seeds with their potential to put the colour back into the black and white photos of uncle Eric's garden are more precious than any everyday object. But the seeds have been 'asleep' for so many years, can he get them to grow? If Richard can get them to germinate - they will emerge into a very different climate.

Adam, the Seed Detective, talks about why we should all save seeds and shares his knowledge about storing and growing seeds and the need to store them in cool , dry, dark conditions.

Have great uncle Eric's seeds survived in the potting shed?

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Our Plant Stories is presented and produced by Sally Flatman

The music is Fade to Black by Howard Levy

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Welcome to our plant stories. Come April, our thoughts turn to sowing seeds. My Instagram feed seems to be full of people posting pictures of seed trays and emerging seedlings.

Richard Bowman, who works as a professional gardener, is no different. But his seed story perhaps is. At the center of this story is great Uncle Eric's potting shed. So perhaps we should start with that.

I hail from North Yorkshire, Ryedale area, which is where Uncle Eric's farm and potting shed was as well, on top of the moors. It was a, it was a beautiful, a beautiful plot of land really.

I can remember looking out of the potting shed and thinking, yeah, I can see why you placed your, your potting shed here because it just, it looked out onto the lovely heather moorland.

Is it still there?

Sadly it's not. I mean when I was in there I probably shouldn't have been in there because it was, it was quite a rickety.

If you can picture one of these old school potting sheds, you know, with a corrugated iron roof and lovely, lovely sash windows. It was, it was like that but it had a slight lean to it. With probably a heavy gust of wind it would have gone.

So where does gardening fit in your life, in your childhood? Is it something you've always done? Is it something your family did?

It's certainly something I've always done and it's one of those really cheesy things to say I was born with a trowel in my hand.

I have very, very early memories and pre memories really of Grandad pushing me down to the veg bed in his allotment, in his wheelbarrow and just watching him and I've got him to thank for passing on that passion for plants at such a young age. And I feel so lucky to be able to say that, that I've enjoyed plants my whole life.

I love gardening even in the midst of winter when it's pouring down. But there's just something about getting your hands in the soil and just, just dealing with the plants. It's just, it's perfect.

So yeah, gardened all my life.

So in front of us we've got a little collection of things. We've got an Oxo cube tin, we've got some quite old looking matchboxes and some other..that tiny lamp washer set, the complete set of washers for tiny lamp or radiator. I feel a bit like I'm back in my dad's garage to be really honest with you. I would find all of these things. Tell me what we're looking at.

Well, literally it is a time capsule. A few years ago, my great auntie passed away and it was somehow left to me to clear out my great uncle's potting shed, who I'd never met.

And this potting shed had been locked up for 20 plus years. So it was as he left it. Most of it, as you can probably imagine, was well rotted and eaten by the old woodworm.

But there was a tin, an old deeds chest on the shelf and there was obviously something about this tin that I thought, I really need to keep hold of this because most of, most of what was in there sadly went on the bonfire.

But this tin had something about it and it wasn't until a couple of years ago when I really took an interest, shall we say, in family history and I started researching about what they did and what the family did.

And he was, during the war, he was in charge of the Timber Corps, the Lumberjills, the Women's Land army and all his friends went off to war and he was left, he was left behind doing his job and what we've got in front of us here is sort of remnants of that time really. They're old, as you say, they're old matchboxes and Oxo tins and envelopes from various agricultural works that are jam packed full of seeds, which personally I think are far more precious than anything that was in the house that the everyday person would think are precious, because I think this really has potential to give us a snapshot into previously black and white pictures because we can see what sort of flowers and plants he was growing way back in the day.

How old are they, do you think?

Well, he's passed away well over 20, 30 years ago.

And the state of the tins and the rest of the contents, it was all from the war, so I can only imagine that they date way back to the Second World War. And how have they been stored in the potting shed? I took them out of his potting shed and the chest went into my potting shed.

So the atmosphere hasn't changed in, in where they've been living. If anyone's listening to this and works in a museum, you're probably cringing because they're in a mouse infested potting shed.

But yeah, he kept them in there. So that's where I, that's where I've kept them.

What do you think the chances are as a horticulturist yourself?

As a horticulturist myself, I think you can't really go wrong with the sweet pea seeds. They will, well, I'm saying they'll almost definitely give us a show. But you can never, you can never tell with seeds.

They don't look too bad as far as seeds go. And the hollyhock seeds as well, they're quite, they're quite a robust seed really. So the proof will be in the pudding.

What do you know about him from kind of family. You said you didn't meet him, but what do you know about him at all? From family memory?

Yeah, I never, I didn't meet him and before this interview I actually asked mum what was he like and she said, well, all I can remember of him is he had a lovely round face and he had lovely round glasses. Just a really nice old man from what I've heard.

I love the fact that there are these seeds stored in tins. So my dad was a pipe smoker, so there were lots of St.Bruno rough cut tins in the garage, undisturbed for decades basically that are full of bits and pieces, you know, little things that he just thought might come in useful someday. But I love the way that these seeds are in little matchboxes. I mean they're not, they're not named, there's no date.

He must have just known what they were.

He obviously did, which is a tricky part because, well, someone with, with seedy knowledge will know what they are straight away. But I think that's also going to be part of the joy of trying to grow them to see what they turn out to be like.

I seem to remember somewhere as well, you talked about the fact that he kept the notes of his friends and colleagues who had died during the war.

Yeah.

The other thing that was included in this chest was, it was in a tobacco tin with his war medals and also newspaper obituaries of colleagues and his friends that lived in the local area that went to war but sadly never returned.

And they were all horticulturists, they were all foresters, they were all gardeners at local estates and he'd kept all these little pieces of newspaper in his shed, in his man cave. Obviously never forgotten. And he stored his war medal in there. Gran said she didn't even know that he had this medal.

So he obviously felt that he needed to keep them, needed to keep them near him. I suppose.

So we can follow your progress this year as you start to sow these and see what happens.

Absolutely.

You'll keep us in touch?

Yes, yes.

What are you most excited about? To see.

I think certainly the sweet peas, because my great granddad, he was a champion sweet pea grower. So what I'm hoping is these perhaps are maybe some of his because he developed some strains back in, back in the day. So you never know.

These might be some long lost sweet peas that might have originated with him. But equally, I'm excited about all of them, really, to see what happens.

And even if I just get a little green shoot out of one of them, that's, that's just, that's bringing something to life that he, he saved. And at least I gave it a try. And they're not on the bonfire, which is where everything else was, was heading.

I thought that Richard might enjoy a conversation with Adam Alexander, author of a book called the Seed Detective, with a new book just out called the Accidental Seed Heroes. I'll be chatting to him about this in a forthcoming offshoot.

Adam has also gardened since childhood, and as you will hear, this is a man who collects and stores a lot of seeds.

Well, Richard, first of all, I wish you the best of luck. Unless you try, you won't know. Many seeds will last for a very, very long time with a reasonable amount of neglect. And we can see that in nature.

So, for example, I've had a forest near me that was felled and it had been planted about 50 years ago. And when it was felled, what came up? Vast amounts of wildflowers. And those have clearly been lying dormant in the soil for a very, very long time.

But big seeds like fava beans, beans will survive for years and years and years.

Although there are three key rules that I employ to extend the life of a seed, and that is you keep them dry, you keep them cool, and you keep them in the dark. And if you're able to do that, then actually you can have a packet of seeds that's 10 years old and you will get pretty good germination.

There are exceptions. Parsnips, carrots tend not to live quite so long, but tomatoes, all of those will survive a long time. So what are the seeds that you found?

Well, that is music to my ears because all these seeds have been kept in my great uncle's potting shed in little matchboxes and Oxo tins that have been perfectly dry. And I can quite confidently say that it's been perfectly cold in there.

Being in Yorkshire, you probably won't find a colder place than an old man's potting shed. As far as I have been able to find out. I've got some hollyhock seeds, I've got some sweet pea seeds, I have seeds that are either squash or pumpkin.

And this morning, rather hurriedly, I was doing a little bit of research on these little seeds.

I don't know whether you'd be able to see those, and I think I've identified them as being giant Himalayan lilies, which I'm not entirely sure how or why it would have these growing on the moors, but I could be completely wrong. There could be something completely different, but they're the closest I've been able to find on good old Google. As to what those seeds are, you might be able to identify further!

I have no idea. I mean, if you think it's a lily, it could well be that he's just saved lily seeds.

Because it's got a sort of membrane around it. Yeah. But the only way you're going to find out is to sow them.

I think that, interestingly enough, your hollyhocks may well be viable, because hollyhocks can stay in the ground for a long time. The thing that seeds hate is big variations in temperature.

So that's why the very worst thing you can do is keep a seed in a greenhouse, in a tin, that is guaranteed to ensure seed death in short order.

The other problem is, and you'll only know this when you do a test, is although they're dry, it's the amount of moisture in the atmosphere that determines how dry a seed is. So Yorkshire, I love Yorkshire, but it's wet and so you have higher humidity.

And those seeds, even if they're in a tin, or worse still, in a matchbox, the amount of moisture that they retain will vary according to the nascent humidity in which they're trying to survive. And that is almost certainly varying a lot, depending on whether it's a hot, dry summer or a cold, wet winter.

So that's why the rule I apply is keeping a uniform temperature and keeping things in an airtight container, because you need to exclude the atmosphere as much as possible. The dark is perfect, that sounds like you've hit it on the head.

I love the thought that your great grandfather also grew and showed sweet peas. So I have a vision that possibly he had shared some with Eric, that might be possible?

Yeah, well, I think so. There's an Oxo tin full of sweet pea seeds here. And I. Yeah, I would like to, I'd like to think that these were from my great granddad's sweet pea seed, although he was notorious for not giving any of his seeds away because he used to show them at shows and things, so he didn't want any competition.

Well, he sounds like a man after my own heart is all I can say.

Although I would never compete, because the idea that somebody could create a more perfect vegetable or flower than me, I couldn't live with the humiliation.

Well, he was obviously a very confident old Yorkshireman.

Do you know, I think the sweetpea again, I think the sweetpeas may...

It depends whether they are a cultivar that was bred for showing or whether they are what I would call a local variety that had not been deliberately bred, you know, by a seed company. It could well be that your distant ancestors were buying seeds from seed companies that were breeding sweet peas especially for showing.

But you will only know that when you grow them and can then identify them.

Right. Proof will be in the pudding.

If one of those does start to germinate, I think I'd be quite terrified, because it's great that it's germinated, but that's not the whole story, is it? You've now got to actually grow this seed. It's. We'll be watching progress, definitely.

Nurture it.

Yeah, nurture it, yeah.

I mean, the other thing is, you know, I chit a lot of seeds, particularly old seeds, too, because I like to know how viable they are, and viability does drop off over the years. So, you know, there is a horrible truth that none of them will germinate, but there is a chance that some of them will.

And the thing then is it's very easy with big seeds like peas, because you wait for them to germinate and then when the root, the emerging root is maybe a centimeter or so long, you then want to plant them individually into modules.

Adam, where do you keep your own seeds? And how many have you got? How many seed packets of seeds, boxes of seeds have you actually got?

Well, I keep all my seeds in two fridges in the garage, and the fridge is, to me, ideal because they're kept at 5 degrees centigrade, which is what most living collections, which is what mine is, are sort of kept at. And they are all either in envelopes, in tupperware boxes, all 536 varieties that I have in my collection or they're in jam jars or, you know, little Kilner jars, all sorts of different sized jars. And I have two larder fridges that I put them in, keep them in.

And I also, just to be on the safe side, because even a fridge, if you don't have a dehumidifier, there is a lot of moisture in a fridge from the air and the evaporation in the cooling process. So I tend to keep a nice big bag of silica gel in the fridge, which from time to time I take out, put in the oven to dry out and then put back in.

But I don't really need to do that if all my seeds are in airtight containers.

Adam, how did you come to be a seed detective?

Back in the late 80s, I was producing TV programs and was in Donetsk in the Ukraine, and there I had to feed a vegetarian director.

And the only place you could find decent vegetables were in the market, which is where I came across this incredible pepper, which had been grown in an old lady's garden, a babushka's garden. And it was a complete, you know, amazing moment for me because this pepper is completely delicious.

I brought seeds back, thinking, I wonder if I can grow them. And I can, and I did, and I've been growing them ever since.

And the really exciting thing about when you grow and save seeds, which is what I've now been doing, I know, for 35 years, is that these seeds become ever more resilient and adapted to growing locally. And this is why Richard's story is really interesting, because if you are able to get your seeds to germinate, they've been asleep for 30 years.

And in that 30 years, the climate has changed. The garden that your great uncle was growing in is not the same garden that you're growing in today.

And so it'd be really interesting to see how those old seeds are able to, to flourish and whether by continuing to save them, actually, over the generations, you're a young man, you'll be able to do this for years and years and years. How you then you build resilience and adaptiveness into the, your local varieties. And that's what I've been doing with loads of things. So that Donetsk pepper, I can grow it outside.

I've been selecting over many, many generations for earliness. So it's the first to flower, it's the first to set fruit, and it continues to crop late into the autumn.

So it's become very well adapted to growing in my corner of southeast Wales, along with lots of other varieties that I grow, and I think that's the single most useful thing that we can be doing as seed savers, is to build resilience into the local varieties. So long as they taste good, deliciousness is number one. It doesn't matter how fabulous it looks, if it don't taste good, you ain't going to eat it.

Absolutely not.

I wonder if anyone listening to this episode is thinking, I have some seeds. Maybe a little old, advanced in age, perhaps a gift from someone special. Could I grow them?

In which case, as always, here is the how to grow part of this podcast.

So you should do a germination test. And to do that, I would take, you know, a small plastic container.

I'll then put a layer of about three or four levels of kitchen towel in the bottom of the container, get it thoroughly soaked with water, and then I would. Depending on how many seeds you've got and because you don't know how old they are, I would, if you've got plenty, I would put at a minimum of 10 and ideally 20 seeds onto that damp kitchen towel, put the whole thing in a polythene bag and seal it so it's nice and moist, and put them somewhere warm, like the kitchen windowsill, your warmest room, and watch them.

And I think because they're very old, they will take a long time to germinate. You need to be patient. I mean, it could take several weeks even.

Although I would imagine the hollyhocks, if they're viable, might germinate quite quickly because of day length and, you know, ambient temperature. So they've had a long, long time of living in the dark and imagining they're underground with nothing to grow up into. But they are old.

If they're 30 or 40 years old, that is difficult, I would say, but I would be thrilled if you were to get even one seed to germinate, because then the trick is to grow it on to see if you can identify exactly what it is and then to save seeds from those. Because what you're then doing is conserving, you know, it'll be an old variety. It may be something that we already know what it is. It could be something that he had saved himself over many, many years. So it's become effectively a locally adapted variety.

And the next thing you have to do is give them names.

Does that inspire you, Richard?

It certainly does. And I think the pressure is now on to do a few experiments of these seeds, and fingers crossed, we get some sprouting.

I am sure that Richard will keep us posted. I can only imagine his excitement if even just one of those seeds shows signs of life.

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