How can we encourage more people to get involved in activism?

Jaiden Corfield is an activist turned social entrepreneur with over a decade of experience in the social impact sector ranging from building radical schools that nurture learning to pioneering bold and disruptive funds that re-invent philanthropy. Jaiden has worked alongside some of the world’s largest organisations and institutions to create and sustain positive change across education, philanthropy and policy. 

Ben Hurst (he/him) is an activist, educator, host, presenter, podcaster, model, public speaker and the Head of Facilitation and Training at Beyond Equality (formerly The Good Lad Initiative). He is the co-host of TED x London’s Climate Curious podcast and has an inspiring TEDx Talk on rethinking masculinities called ‘Boys won’t be boys. Boys will be what we teach them to be’. He’s featured in Stylist magazine, Postscript, Positive News and many more.

Imposter syndrome in climate activism is so real and in the second episode of season 3, Confessions of a Climate Activist, Clover sits down with Jaiden Corfield and Ben Hurst to explore what it’s like to feel like an outsider, and addresses the causes behind imposter syndrome in the activist space, from economic privilege and classism, to gender equality and racial justice. Wait til the end to hear a juicy climate confession from both Jaiden and Ben.

“When I feel imposter syndrome kicking in, I'm like ok, this is a sign I need to be in the room.” - Jaiden Corfield

“What prevented me from engaging earlier in climate? I think first of all, I'm black.” - Ben Hurst

Follow Jaiden:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/Jaiden_Corfield

Follow Ben:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/therealbenhurst/

Website: https://www.acalltomen.org/about/trainers/ben-hurst/

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Clover Hogan:

Hi my name’s Clover and you’re listening to the Force of Nature podcast. This season, we’re diving into “*Confessions of a Climate Activist*”.

What comes to mind when you picture an activist? Is it a person glued to the road? Someone with a reusable coffee cup? Maybe, a teenager holding a microphone?

Whatever it is, I want you to let it go — because I’m about to invite you behind the scenes. You’re going to hear from activists on the stuff that *doesn’t* get talked about. Burnout; getting cancelled; the ethical compromises of making money; imposter syndrome, and even what it’s like to alienate friends and family.

See this as your how-to guide when understanding and navigating the nuances of activism and barriers to action in the climate space. Over the season, we hope to find some answers: namely, what activism can look like when it's more open, honest and human. Make sure to stick around to the end of each episode when our guests spill their climate confessions.

After all, we don't need a hundred perfect activists - but millions of imperfect ones.

Clover Hogan:

Last week on Confessions of an Activist, we spoke with Tori Tsui about what it means to be a ‘bad’ activist… we also touched on this false idea that activism can only look one way. That you must tick certain boxes to be an activist.

Now, I’m a 24-year-old white woman. I’m able-bodied. I have a job that pays my bills. I’ve faced little discrimination in my life. And within activism, I don’t have to look far to see myself represented. Indeed, I often *only* see people like me represented.

Which leaves me to question: who’s not in the room? Why aren’t they there? And what’s activism like for young people who don’t benefit from the many privileges and opportunities I’ve been afforded?

Today we’re diving into what it’s like for young people who have felt like outsiders within activist movements. We invited our Force of Nature community to share; let’s hear what they have to say…

Community member 1:

My imposter syndrome stems from something that I like to call the Greta complex, which is essentially where I don't feel like I need to be in the climate movement because there are already so many incredible activists who speak so eloquently about the change that we need, and I couldn't see myself in that space. But it took me ages to realise that I don't need to be the next Greta and I don't need to be speaking with world leaders to truly make a difference and catalyse the change that we need to see.

Community member 2:

My name's Aquayemi-Claude and I have imposter syndrome. In my five plus years of being an activist, especially because of the presses that are being put on us in regards to silencing our right to protest and our freedom of speech.

Community member 3:

I constantly feel like an imposter because it's always scary because you keep thinking, am I saying the wrong things? Is it enough? Like, why am I speaking? Why do people put me on the spot when there are other people who are actual experts? I come from a certain background where it's not like I'm directly impacted by the climate crisis or the injustice. So often it makes me feel like I even have the right to speak.

Community member 4:

Hi, my name is Madeline. I've actually been struggling a lot with imposter syndrome lately, to the point that even yesterday I spoke with my therapist about it, because I've co-founded a non-for-profit organization. Recently, I've been going to all these big events for the whole bunch of potential investors, and all of them were older men who were of a particular background, and I found it quite intimidating to talk to them. And I kept getting turned down over and over again. I eventually at the end of that event found myself just feeling like, what am I doing? I'm clearly not cut out to be among this group because I stood out in a lot of ways and I felt like I just didn't belong.

Clover Hogan:

It’s interesting to hear this theme of ‘imposter syndrome’ surface time and time again.

We asked our community if they’d ever felt excluded or unwelcome in certain ‘activist’ spaces, and 71% of them said they had. They mentioned feeling excluded within campaigning groups, on youth boards, and among peers. Some put this down to judgement from others, for not buying the most sustainable products — others mentioned not having the necessary expertise, or feeling confident communicating. A few people mentioned being excluded for the way they look or speak.

Today I’m keen to dive into this further, from activists who understand what it’s like to be on the outside looking in. I’ve invited two friends to join us today: the first is Jaiden Corfield. I’ll let him introduce himself.

Jaiden Corfield:

I'm Jaiden. I am a campaigner activist turned trying to do social entrepreneurship.

Clover Hogan:

I love it. I love it. I like the trying. I feel like you can officially wear the badge of like being a social entrepreneur. I don't think. You have to do anything more to earn it. I'd love to hear more about your kind of personal story, Jaiden, because today we're going to be talking about imposter syndrome within activism. We're going to be talking about some of the pressures to be the perfect activist, which is, of course, the theme for this season. But before all of that, I really want to hear, you know, what were the steps that kind of led you to doing the work that you do today?

Jaiden Corfield:

I grew up on a council estate in Salford, raised by a single mother, a very powerful single mother, and learnt very quickly that like growing up on my council estate it kind of felt like we were just pushed there and the rest of the world ignored us like all the youth provisions were closed down anything that we ever felt like got a sense of fun from felt like it was closed and we were just there to know that like the council estate is all we'd ever become or aspire to become. And so like I used to get really, really frustrated by that. And when I was 11 years old, there was an assembly in my school came in and a youth worker said to us, does anyone get angry about being from Salford? Or does anyone get angry about how the media portray people from Salford? And my hand went straight up and we got into a conversation in the assembly about just being really annoyed about how people who aren't from Salford perceive Salford. And actually we have like a really loving and great community who will always help each other out. And the Salford in my mind is like, if I don't have sugar for my tea, I'm going to knock on my neighbour's door and ask them for sugar. And they'll give it to me, no questions. Like everyone's door is always open. But the Salford in the media's mind is guns, gangs and violence. And it was completely different. And so we got invited onto this two week summer school. And I mainly went for the free food and the place to hang around with my friends for two weeks in the summer. But... We got there and they told us all about activism and leadership. And we spent two weeks doing that and two weeks quickly turned into six years of campaigning and activism, trying to campaign around education, trying to campaign around more young people from areas like mine being seen in positions of power and positions of influence, campaigning for policies from the North being made by people from the North. And then my educational journey was quite turbulent in and of itself. I didn't really start school until year seven. So navigating, like going into school and everyone else felt like they understood like the orders of school, what happened in school. And I didn't really. And so trying to navigate that in year seven as well. And then went to college and went to Oxford and then dropped out of Oxford after realizing that like it wasn't for me and like fighting imposter syndrome and just. feeling like I didn't belong there. And that then played into the next stages of my activism, which was like, in the spaces I don't belong, are the spaces I need to get into, and trying to empower more young people to do that, but also empowering organizations and doing the work with organizations and the systems to try and do it. And then my activism changed into education, and how can we make more young people feel like education and learn in a spaces where they can fit in for the rest of their lives? And then there's not like one box and one approach to education that people have to fit into or one path that they should follow. And so it turned really very much into like education campaigning. And that's been my life for the past few years. And just trying to make organizations realize that young people should be like around their decision-making tables, should be creating the change, should be leading the change as well.

Clover Hogan:

I'd love to hear within the context of kind of like the activist spaces, which you've since found yourself in. Do you often see people like you with your kind of lived experience and history? Do you see other young people with that lived experience reflected in these spaces? Or do you often feel like a bit of an outsider within them?

Jaiden Corfield:

I think it depends the spaces that I put my, or the spaces that I go into. Like imposter syndrome often means I go into the spaces where I know that I'm gonna see people like me. Crap, like it keeps me out of the spaces where I know I'm not gonna see people like me, or it did for a very long time. And so like, I definitely, as like a young person, I mean, starting campaigning and activism at 11, I've definitely done like a decade of just going into rooms where it never felt like I should have been there when no one looked like me or sounded like me, was as young as me, was from, like for a very long time, there was no one from the North in these rooms, or there was no one from like working class backgrounds in these rooms. And for me, like feeling like you're the only young person. or the only working class young person, the only Northern working class young person in a room full of people who are making the decisions can often feel like I'm not supposed to be here. People from the North or young working class people from the North aren't supposed to make the decisions or have a position in these rooms. I try and see imposter syndrome rather than being as like an enemy, more as a friend in a way, I made this weird connection to like imposter syndrome being kind of like a personal assistant, like it's gonna tell me the rooms I need to get into. Because when I feel like imposter syndrome like kicking in, I'm like, okay, this is a sign that I need to be in this room, that I need to like do some shaping of what this room looks like.

Clover Hogan:

I'd love to hear, you kind of alluded to this, but like within activist groups and, you know, maybe within like climate spaces as well, do you feel like often welcome within those kinds of environments? And do you feel like your voice has been heard among peers, like among the young people who... on paper should get it and should understand why your voice is needed?

Jaiden Corfield:

It's a really good question. It's so nuanced because the rooms are so different. I think, yeah, I definitely, sometimes I feel like my voice is listened to, especially if you're genuinely just coming together to create the difference and make the change. And I think when we look at the climate, for example, There's so much intersectionality involved in it that we need all of those voices in the room. We need all of those experiences. And I think in those moments when there's a room that genuinely gets that and that genuinely understands like the power of moving forwards together, then imposter syndrome isn't there. Right. But sometimes as a young person navigating my way into activism in certain spaces, education, the climate, all of these spaces. I definitely felt like as a young person, a working class young person, those weren't the spaces for me. Like those weren't spaces where I belonged, they didn't reflect people like me. And I think like that, when I was starting out and getting into those spaces, that was definitely like my own problem. Like I'd internalized imposter syndrome so much that every time I went into a room, rather than thinking about the reasons that I was there. I'd look around and I'd scan and I'd say, no one in this room looks like me. No one in this room sounds like me, has my accent, anything like that. And so first, as soon as I'd step in the room, I'd do this weird thing of like internalizing all the reasons why I shouldn't be in that room, rather than just like aligning with the mission. And I think it was actually like a huge problem for me because now when I step into rooms, I don't connect with imposter syndrome as much because I feel like genuinely we are realizing the need to bring. loads of different voices and experiences into rooms. And it's a weird one because I definitely feel my imposter syndrome feels worse when I feel like it's imposter syndrome amongst peers. That really takes me back because I'm like, why do I feel imposter syndrome amongst my peers? And so yeah, in those moments, I guess it gets kind of scary.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah, I feel like that kind of competition stems from a few places. Like for one, the actual scarcity of resources when you're working in the nonprofit space. It often feels like everyone's scrambling for the same resources and funding and opportunity. Then there's also this element of, particularly for young people showing up in these spaces, when you do represent a group of people, the community, a lived experience, there's a lot of responsibility and pressure that comes from... being that voice, like you're the voice of youth or you're the voice of like working class communities or you're the voice of like racial justice and climate. I'd love to hear from your point, like from your perspective, have you often felt that pressure to be that conduit and to represent like an entire group of people?

Jaiden Corfield:

Yeah and it's like it's the um it's actually like one of the biggest sources of my imposter syndrome. Or like the biggest sources of like just my fear around activism. One of the biggest reasons why I'm like an imperfect activist is because of like this fear around like representing people. And I think sometimes people try and tell you to like switch representing from reflecting. And I find it just like, yeah it sounds better, it sounds better but it doesn't change like internally that pressure that you feel to represent or reflect whole communities of people. Especially I think at the moment where I am in my in my current activism, I think when you're a young person now who can often get invited into the room and you like often get asked to go to meetings or get asked to go to conferences or get asked to go to go into rooms that need then all that pressure to then reflect and represent more people because you then that like the pressure grows. And it's weird because the pressure would be worse at the start because you think you'd get used to it. But the more you progress within your activism, the pressure actually grows because people then see you as being that person that represents or reflects those communities. So rather than when I was 11 years old walking into a room as Jayden and telling my story and being like, this is who I am, this is why I want change, I now feel a massive pressure to walk into a room and being like, this is who my community is, this is who they are, and this is why we want change. And like the reframing of it whilst doing it for my community and for like, um, like with my community rather than for is a lot harder. I think also, um, just the pressure that comes with it is a lot harder too. And to try and, to try and like sit with being no longer like the Jaiden who, um, was doing activism for his story in the community that he knew. And to try and become the Jaiden who is invited into rooms. to represent communities is so harder because I feel like less able to get it wrong as well. Yeah. And the thing with that is like, we have to get it wrong and we have to allow each other to get it wrong. And I think sometimes when you're representing or reflecting communities, you don't allow yourself to get it wrong because it's not you.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah, that's so interesting. And I think particularly what you're kind of speaking to around starting to show up in different. places and maybe not having your feet as much on the ground. I've definitely reflected on that within myself. The more stages you show up on, the more privileged spaces you show up in, you're like, but yeah, suddenly you're like, oh, I'm in these air conditioned rooms with people in suits and a lot of the young people I'm quite speaking on behalf of are never going to have access to these spaces. I know for me running Force of Nature, more and more of my work. then becomes focused on fundraising or being that public speaker, whatever, and I'm not necessarily doing that grassroots work that I'm talking about, working directly with young people running programs, etc. It's like, how do you evolve your work and your theory of change, how you create change for the community you do represent, while then not also overstepping and maybe, to your point, losing touch with how a community of people wants to be spoken on behalf of. We did this piece of research recently, particularly talking to young people from underserved communities in the UK. So young people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, young people from global majority groups, from socially excluded groups. And the key theme that kept coming up as a barrier to access was like perceived lack of qualifications, perceived lack of expertise. So young people saying like, well, I don't have the answers, like I don't have the qualifications, I don't have the degree, whatever. What might your kind of invitation be to any young person who is questioning like their right to show up into a space or questioning, you know, their voice on an issue they care about?

Jaiden Corfield:

And it's a really good question. And it's so hard, I think, because exactly like you were saying a second ago, like, there have been so many in 10 years of acting, there's been so many opportunities that have allowed me to get to this moment to get to this point where like, I can. go into rooms and I can talk and I can be really confident.

And I sometimes feel slightly removed from the amount of opportunities and the amount of work that has gone into, like from other people, from mentors, from youth organizations, from different projects in the same way that force of nature are doing that for other young people. I had those projects and those opportunities, but so many of them. that allowed me to then stand on a stage and feel really confident in someone to say, how do you do this? And so when I'm asked for like, what advice do you give to young people who are navigating that thing around like, feeling like what they have to offer might not be enough, I think my first thing is like, A, absolutely is. And I think before you check all the reasons why you shouldn't be in the room, or why you shouldn't be in that job, or why you shouldn't be doing this thing, check all the reasons why you should. And I think that really helps. And I often say this when talking about imposter syndrome, if you walk into a room and the first thing you do is look around and see why you shouldn't be there, then immediately after that, look at why you should be there to disrupt, to challenge, to rewrite what that room looks like. And I think the same thing relates to, you know, when I do this thing now where I'll apply for jobs, even if they advertise a degree. And sometimes I don't even want the job, right? I just want to, I just want to get to a point where I can, in that interview or in that stage, say you didn't need a degree for this job. Right. Because I don't have a degree. And I think it's that piece around like, realizing that it's the systems and the institutions and the organizations that need to change. Right? Not you as a young person. It's not you that needs to change to fit into those organisations. It's the organisations and the institutions that need to change.

So when a job comes up and it doesn't need a degree, but they're asking for a degree, you can apply and say, hey, you didn't need a degree for this role. When you walk into a room and there's imposter syndrome kicking in and you check all the reasons why you shouldn't be there. you then check all the reasons why you should be there and you use that as like your permission to disrupt, to challenge the rooms, to tell them why the rooms need to be different and why more people need inviting in. And so I think it's like just really bigging yourself up in certain moments and connecting with all the reasons why you should be in that space.

Clover Hogan:

Oh, I feel inspired just listening to you. No, but it's so true and I think I love what you said about connecting. some of those fears that young people have to the kind of like systems and structures that reinforce those ways of thinking and that kind of like self perception. You know, if you even look at like the job space, as you said, the bar for like qualifications is like perpetually getting higher. You don't just need a degree, you need a master's like, you know, and you apply to an entry level job and you're turned away because they say, well, actually you need, you know, three years of experience. It's like, okay, cool. If I can't get experience here, where do I get experience then? the number of young people who were just in this hamster wheel of unpaid internships, because again, society tells us that actually your time and your contribution is not valuable if you're a young person without quote unquote experience. But this is also why I think the climate crisis and all of the related interconnected problems... is a leveler in a way because we recognise that we're not going to solve this problem with like the same types of thinking, the same people who created it. And so we need that disruptive energy. And that is what young people naturally have in spades, like that tendency to really question the systems we've inherited and ask that question of like, what if we did do things differently?

Clover Hogan:

Now I'm conscious of time, I would love to ask you one final question, Jaden. We have asked everyone coming on the show in the interest of normalizing imperfect activism to share a quote-unquote climate confession. So something that makes them a little hypocritical or a little inconsistent. My most recent climate confession, I have so many, my most recent one is that I am addicted to this like lychee fizzy tea that I buy at my local corner shop. and it's very much disposable plastic. It's wrapped in a soft plastic that cannot be recycled, but I'm so addicted to this drink that it's like when I'm having a low day, that's what I go for. Same for bubble tea, it's throwaway plastic, but that is my guilty pleasure, especially at the moment. I'm feeling like fizzy tea is the only thing keeping me going. How about you? Do you have a climate confession you wanna share?

Jaiden Corfield:

There's so many climate confessions. I think my big one at the minute is like, I promised myself that I would like find better ways to travel and get about and I'm just not doing it. Right. And I think like that's my it's a one where that really gets to me where I'm like, I could have done that journey so much better. I could have used the train and I could have holidayed in the UK like that kind of thing. And I think that's my thing that I keep like trying to check myself on because I make promises to myself. You're going to holiday in the UK. You're not going to do that. Yeah. and I'll go and do it. I'm definitely guilty of that one as well. I feel like my bar just keeps shifting where I'm like only work trips and I'm like, oh, but I really wanna go to this place on holiday. It's a tough one, it's a tough one.

Clover Hogan:

Oh, well thank you so much, Jaiden. It is always such a pleasure to chat to you. I could honestly talk to you for hours, but there's so much gold just in what you shared now. So thank you so much.

Clover Hogan:

It was really interesting to hear Jaiden speak to the pressures that come from feeling like you’re representing an entire community.

Now, we touched on economic privilege - and classism, within activism. But there’s another dimension here. It’s not just that climate spaces are overwhelmingly middle class - but they’re also very white. To understand this better, I reached out to my friend Ben Hurst. Ben has been engaged in activism for a long time: especially on gender equality and racial justice. But he’s also been vocal about not getting involved in climate until pretty recently. I wanted to understand what the barriers were for him, so I invited Ben to have a chat. Here he is.

Clover Hogan:

Before we dive in, would you mind introducing yourself, your name and in a snapshot what you do and then we'll get into the juicy stuff.

Ben Hurst:

Okay, cool. My name is Ben Hurst. What do I do? A bunch of different stuff. I guess my main job at the moment is that I'm the head of facilitation at organization called Beyond Equality that does stuff around gender equality with men and boys in schools, in universities, in corporate spaces. So... kind of creating spaces to reimagine or rethink what masculinity is for people. And then I do a bunch of hosting, do some podcasting with TEDx London. So with TEDx London, we do the Climate Curious podcast of which I am a co-host with my wonderful co-host, Maryam Pasha. And we've been doing that for about four, I think four seasons, four and a half seasons. I don't know, we've been doing it for a long time. And I... I'm definitely not a climate expert, but I've learned a lot through that podcast, which has been a cool experience. And then outside of that, I do other random bits and pieces. I just do stuff that's fun. Like as long as something feels like it's going to be fun, then you'll find me there. It's chill. It's a chilled out vibe.

Clover Hogan:

That's a good compass. As you know, I always seek you out whenever we're both at the same like climate events. I'm like, where's Ben?

Ben Hurst:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's chat shit about people. No, we don't do that. We don't do that.

Clover Hogan:

We would never.

Ben Hurst:

But we do have a good chin way.

Clover Hogan:

It's true. It's true. And I'm really curious, what first brought you into the world of climate?

Ben Hurst:

Maryam.

Clover Hogan:

What first?

Ben Hurst:

Yeah, it is Maryam. So what first brought me into the world of climate? I think I was in experiencing a global pandemic with everybody else at the same time. So I was just gone into this mode where I was, I'd been furloughed. So I was giving myself the freedom to live my best 14 year old life. Do you know what I mean? And I bought bean bags and TVs and Nintendo Switch. And I was playing Zelda and living the dream. And I got a call, like a random call from Maryam one day. And she was like, oh, do you want to do a podcast? I was like, I'd love to do a podcast. She was like, it's about climate. And I literally, no exaggeration knew. I'm sure if you've listened to the podcast, you will know that I knew and probably still know very little about the climate crisis. So I said no, cause I was like, Maryam, this is not something I'm interested in or know about. And she was like, no, that's the point. The point is that you will be the person who asks the questions that everybody wants to ask, but feels too scared to ask, which I'm really good at doing. And so... That was like the inception for me. And that would have been what? Three, three years ago now, I think. Yeah. During, during the first lockdown. Um, and so yeah, from there, just having a bunch of different conversations with loads of people who I later discovered were climate experts like yourself. I didn't even know climate experts existed. Do you know what I mean? I was just like people just chilling, watching clouds and stuff, but yeah, it was, it was a cool experience. It has been a really cool experience. Um. And I feel like I've learned a lot, none of which I can recall, so please don't ask me to. Please don't ask you to do that.

But I feel like I've learned a lot.

Clover Hogan:

And what do you feel might have prevented you from engaging even earlier in climate more specifically?

Ben Hurst:

What prevented me from engaging? I think first of all, I'm black. So which is like a contentious answer, but I do think... There's a thing in psychotherapy called the highest context marker, which is like the lens of struggle that people see the world through. And for me, that thing has always been race. And so race has always been the biggest issue for me. Do you know what I mean? Even until I started doing the work that I do around masculinities and gender equality, I didn't really understand that was a massive thing that really impacted people. For me, the thing was racism and if we could solve that, we would have solved all the problems in the world. And so I think you just find yourself busy thinking about other things, do you know what I mean? There are other things that feel more urgent or more pressing. you're worried about your day-to-day experiences, how you're treated when you're walking down the street, how you're treated by institutions, all of those kinds of ideas. And I think that, I guess one of the functions of maybe media, I don't know what it is specifically, but it feels like there's this kind of machine that operates that silos all of these struggles off because it benefits, like not having people unified in tackling issues benefits the structures. And so I never saw any of the links between the issues that I considered to be my issues and other people's issues, which are also my issues is what I've discovered. But yeah, I think I just never really saw it as something that was like pressing or urgent for me. Feels pretty inaccessible. I think from the outside looking in the whole, not even the climate movement, but just the whole of climate science and everything that's going on seems very complicated. It feels like it's like a very academic subject that's designed for only the people who understand it to understand it. So I didn't see loads of like entry ways. And that kind of fitted me and my vibe and the way I like to approach things in the world. Yeah, I mean, I think the lens of kind of racial justice and like how that has been really separated out from and kind of ignored by the sustainability and climate movement is a really important conversation to have. I mean, coming from the outside and starting to talk to people about climate and starting to engage like in a more hands-on way, like what were some of your early kind of perceptions of the people working in these spaces and maybe, yeah, the ways in which they present. People are much more chill than you think they are. I think for me, one of my big perceptions or one of the big shifts in my perception was that people really don't wanna be miserable. I mean, I think particularly for people who work in these fields, it feels like people are quite desperate for like good news, that they want to have something to believe in. They want to know that the problem can be solved or the issues can be fixed. And so they're much more happy to talk. I think people are much more happy to answer questions if people are brave enough to ask them. And I imagine that's one of the big barriers for people. There's like this coded language that people use that is spoken in a way that assumes everybody knows what they're talking about. And even on the podcast, we find it like guests will come on and just start talking. And then I'm like, what does that mean? What's that? What is cop? For me, that was a big one. Like people, I'm sure we did like a whole season and a half of people just talking about cop before I even knew what cop was. But like all of those kinds of ways of speaking, people are quite happy to break them down, which is not what I expected. And I think I didn't realize there were so many young people. I think that's been one of the big revelations for me is that there are, is it, I was gonna say young leaders, but I don't know if everybody's a leader and I don't know if everybody necessarily has to be a leader, but I think there's massive communities of younger people who like find these conversations really important, really urgent, are really passionate. I was absolutely shocked. by the amount of people that I was meeting and having pretty intense conversations with in loads of cases about things that have massively impacted their lives in really negative ways who have this passion and fire to challenge status quo, to challenge structures, institutions. people.

Clover Hogan:

But you said something that I have like not been able to dislodge from my brain. I've got the Ben virus. No, but it was just it was really impactful.

We were at the Natural History Museum and one of my colleagues, Sacha, was chatting to you about like climate and justice and storytelling. And she asked you, you know, what was, you know, one of your biggest barriers to engaging and you said David Attenborough. And it was just such a powerful…

Ben Hurst:

I love Dave, man. Uncle Dave, what a guy.

Clover Hogan:

But it was just such a powerful reframe because I think we're constantly like pointing toward and heralding these individuals with this kind of like legacy and who are very like emblematic of what sustainability has meant and that definition I would say is like pretty problematic now. without actually acknowledging the ways in which those very kind of people we've hero worshipped have actually prevented more people from engaging because they don't see themselves reflected.

Ben Hurst:

Yeah. I mean, shout out to Dave because he's done a, he’s a national treasure.

Clover Hogan:

He's an avid listener of the podcast, Ben. So very professional.

Ben Hurst:

Oh my God. We'll link up. We'll do a coffee. But I think he's done a great job of doing his job. And also he's done some really Like he's done his job in some ways that are like quite fucked up ways of doing it. And like for me, one of those big things is like the erasure of people from the narrative about the impact of climate on the planet. Because one of the big things I've learned over the course of having these conversations, like that animals are going to survive. I mean, like I'm sure there are species of animals that are going to go extinct, but like the planet is going to wipe us out. It's not a joke. It's like fighting a virus and we are the virus and we will be gone and the elephants will be walking around enjoying living their best lives, flourishing. Do you know what I mean? Like all of the giraffes are going to be there. They're going to be grazing on the Sahara. I don't know what they do, but they're going to be living and it's going to be us. And I think, yeah, that whole narrative, like the production of those... programs and films is so good, it's so engaging. I feel like I learned so much, but I don't learn anything about me. I don't learn anything about like why I should care. I'm just like, wow, animals are so amazing. They're so resilient rather than like, oh, we're fucking the planet up and we need to save it. So yeah, I think a big barrier has been, again, that PR campaign kind of skews the messaging slightly.

Clover Hogan:

As you've learned more and more about the climate crisis, as you've gotten more embedded and met all of these interesting people doing things, how have you reflected on what your own like personal role is in solving the problem and in addressing the solutions?

Ben Hurst:

How have I reflected on what my own personal role is? I think that I have, I guess I found my space or what I deem to be my space at the moment. in quite an organic way because of podcasting being the vehicle that we've taken to get to this point. And I feel like for me, I have found so much value in the learning that I've experienced. And just being in a room with someone doesn't really matter who the person is. and being able to ask questions and get honest answers. And sometimes those answers are like really good answers. Sometimes they're really not good answers. Sometimes it's what you wanna hear, sometimes it's not. But being able to have, like I'm a person who learns through conversation. I've never been like an academic. I've never been like a big reader of books or a big watcher of documentaries really, like sometimes, but I don't retain information that way. And so... I think for me figuring out that is how I learn, I then figure, well, other people must, there must be some people who learn that way, who also find this as inaccessible as I find it. So creating spaces where you can have those conversations, I think for me is like where I feel I fit in. I think, yeah, a big thing for me has been that often we value... the knowledge and understanding rather than valuing the process of getting there. And for me, that process, facilitating that process for people to get there has become really, really important.

Clover Hogan:

No, I think it's so refreshing. And I remember like when we first met and I was really taken aback, but just like positively surprised by your willingness to ask questions. Because I feel like particularly working in this space, you do just grow really dependent on this kind of jargon. And it sometimes divorces you from the meaning of what you're saying, or you can just get so used to repeating the same things. It's almost like you're reading a script and you don't actually take a pause to examine what you're saying. And I think any person I've spoken to who works in climate from the smartest climate scientists, young activists, every single one has said, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know.

Ben Hurst:

You don't know anything at all.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah. And particularly when it is so far ranging, like there's no world in which you're going to understand the minutiae of like the science and also the cultural implications and also understand the lived experience of every person. Like it's ridiculous, but I think we try and kind of shield ourselves almost and pretend that we do know and we've often lost that ability to ask those questions. But I'm really keen to come back to this point briefly about you kind of finding your own role and being willing to question. I think there's so many young people who are kind of like on the periphery of climate and want to engage but maybe don't see their ideas reflected or question, you know, their perspectives or whether they have the expertise or, you know, feel a little bit of imposter syndrome. So I'd love to hear what your advice might be to a young person who... kind of wants to get engaged, wants to get involved, but doesn't necessarily know where to start.

Ben Hurst:

To a young person that wants to get involved, wants to get engaged, doesn't know where to start, I would say start a podcast… no I’m joking. You don't have to start a podcast. It's not necessarily good advice.

Clover Hogan:

Follow in my exact footsteps.

Ben Hurst:

Yeah, yeah. Do what I have done. No, I think, do you know what I have learned and realized is that the movement is large and the movement is vast. And I think if you can find one place where you can like plug in and that might be like an event you go to or it might be a protest that like no one you know is going to and you haven't been invited to but you just think looks interesting or looks cool or they're protesting about something you care about what i would say is like the hardest thing is getting over the fear of like not being part of it and if you can do that you will instantly be accepted, you'll be welcomed, you'll be like people, people are so happy when you turn up to places. That's one big thing that I've realized is people really like new people. And and so I'd say just go man just go to something plug in somewhere, go and have a conversation and also be like pretty fluid with it because sometimes you go places and it's not the place for you. Sometimes you go places and they're not your people, they don't care about the same things that you care about. It's not the right vibe for you. You don't have to stay, you're not beholden to anywhere. But keep trying like little things because you never know. It's like you were doing the climate cafe at the, which museum was it?

Clover Hogan:

It was the natural history museum.

Ben Hurst:

Ah, recall, sick recall. So the Climate Cafe at the Natural History Museum is a really interesting example of a place that you could see advertised and you could just go to on a random by yourself, not knowing anybody. Just sit down, listen to some speakers, ask some questions, have a conversation with another person who seems to be there by yourself, and you might find a friend for life. You might find... some answers to some questions that you're asking, you might find a way that you can start to help or something you can start to do, you find solutions. But I think that the worst thing you can do is nothing, right? So if you're on the periphery and it's something you care about, especially if it's a conversation you think is not being had, you can also ask people why they're not having that conversation and people will either come up with some bullshit answer about. why what you care about is not that important, or they'll tell the truth and just say they haven't thought about it before. And then you have a way and a space to like start having some conversations that you haven't had. But I think, yeah, take a little bit of a risk and turn up somewhere that you wouldn't normally turn up to. I don't wanna put all the responsibility on people and say, find ways to share it. But I do think if you just go to somewhere, try and find a place where something's already happening. you might be pleasantly surprised by what you experience when you're there.

Clover Hogan:

I love that. I think that is such good advice and it's such a good antidote to feeling really alone and feeling like eco anxiety, climate anxiety. I remember the first time I experienced those feelings like The hottest part was this feeling of alienation. Like, am I the only one who's experiencing this? Who's going through it? Which is like, obviously very narcissistic. I think it's like.

Ben Hurst:

You're like, just me.

Clover Hogan:

I am the main character. No, but I feel like particularly in like a culture that. is constantly kind of like numbing you to the issues, pretending everything's fine. That's like trying to convince you there is an emergency. Like it's very easy to almost like gaslight yourself and be like, yeah, like I'm overreacting, whatever, I'm too sensitive. But I think it's so powerful coming together with other people. because chances are you might not find those people within your immediate community, or I know I didn't find them in my family. And so seeking out other groups of people who cared about the same thing was just a really powerful light under my fire. But one final question, and this question is taken directly from the Climate Curious podcast. I called up Maryam and I was like, hey, do you mind if I steal your bit because it's really good? But we've been inviting... people, um, guests and also people just like submitting voice memos and videos to share their climate confessions. In the interest. I know. And I feel so sorry for you because like I'm struggling and I've like only had to come up with like 10 confessions and you've been doing this for like four seasons.

Ben Hurst:

It’s unbearable. It's so bad. It's so bad.

Clover Hogan:

It's like, it actually becomes like pretty like self-flagellating, you know, it's like masochistic.

Ben Hurst:

Yeah. It's like, Oh yes, it's a strange dynamic, but let's go for it. I'm sure I could come up with another one. It's soul destroying.

Clover Hogan:

You can recycle, you can recycle. Like for maybe one of the earlier seasons. Okay.

Ben Hurst:

Oh man.

Clover Hogan:

So I'm gonna share a climate confession. This is like a bit of a cop-out climate confession, but it is something that I legitimately feel a little guilty about. Because I'm like the token climate person in like a lot of my friend group and like, you know, in my family and everything. Like their way of engaging with the issue is just like sending me all of the stuff. So they send me like the climate films and documentaries and articles. Like, I swear to God, I haven't read or listened to something climate related. In like, in years. Like I haven't read the IPCC reports. I've retweeted them, but I'm just like, I'm full up. I know what I need to know to do the things that I need to do. but I do feel a little guilty sometimes because I'm like, oh my God, so interesting. And I have like not even opened the link. So yeah.

Ben Hurst:

You're like, wow, thank you so much for sending it. But I don't know if you feel this. I feel like you get to a point where you like start displacing rage. Like if you know all of the things you need to know, it's like with song lyrics, like I can only remember a certain amount of song lyrics. And then if I learn a new one, I've got to forget an old one.

Clover Hogan:

It's true. It’s true.

Ben Hurst:

Yeah, I don't know. It feels risky to me. Don't consume new stuff, kids. That's the right. That's how you build a clan of readers. That's how we solve the problem. Do not take on new information. Oh, this is rough. That was a good one. I mean, that is mine as well. I definitely do not. Apart from stuff that Josie, our producer, sends me, I do read that stuff. That's well curated. Yeah, because she knows what the things are that will get me. She knows where there's anything that's got something about Kanye in it. I'm going to be like, nah. I need to know what's going on here. This is very important popcorn should use. But I would say my climate confession at the moment, I mean, I feel like they're on a carousel and like every time I get better at one, I get worse at another one. So the one that I'm dealing with at the moment is probably food waste actually. That's a good one. I don't know, maybe it's like an aspiration thing, but we buy so many vegetables that we just never use and we don't compost anything like that. So we just like literally buy this shit and then leave it in the fridge for two weeks and then throw it away. And I'm starting to question whether we even have the intention of using it. But yeah, we've got to get better at like not wasting food or finding ways to like. turn that food waste into something good. But I hate fruit flies, I hate. I know, it's gonna get bad in the summer. It's gonna get real bad. It's disgusting, it is unbearable. But maybe we'll start a heap somewhere in the garden or something. We'll figure it out, that's gonna be my, for next season, that's gonna be one of the things I suggest is like, how do you deal with your food waste? That will be a good one.

Clover Hogan:

Oh, amazing, that was so good, Ben, thank you.

Ben Hurst:

You're so welcome.

Clover Hogan:

I loved this point from Ben on why jargon and complicated science are not only a barrier to entry, but also erase so many people from the narrative.

I also really resonated with Ben’s advice to take risks and show up in new environments, because you may be surprised by what you find. This echoed what Jaiden said about reframing his mindset around imposter syndrome: from seeing it as a bad thing, to realising it can actually be a motivator… spurring him to push his way into rooms that *need* a greater diversity of voices.

Ultimately, the responsibility of making climate spaces more inclusive *shouldn’t* sit with the people who have been excluded. People in the room, with privilege, and influence, need to ask who’s not there, then make sure they’re at the table. Yet Jaiden and Ben are both testament to stepping outside of their comfort zones, and standing tall in these spaces. In doing so, they’ve inspired so many others to follow in their footsteps.

In this season, we’ve heard from three activists — two of whom consider themselves *youth* activists. But what exactly does it mean to be a ‘youth activist’? And why does the career of a youth activist have such a short expiration date?

To help me answer these questions, I’ll be speaking to Ziad Ahmed and Severn Cullis-Suzuki: and we’ll be hearing from our Force of Nature community once more.

In the meantime, if you enjoyed today’s episode and are thirsty for more Force of Nature content, check out the fourth episode of Season 2: where we explore the climate crisis through the lens of racial justice. When you’ve listened, drop us a comment and let us know what you think.

Clover Hogan:

How did today's episode make you feel? Let us know by heading over to Force of Nature's instagram, @forceofnature.xyz, and dropping us a comment.

If you’re between the ages of 16 and 35, you can join Force of Nature’s growing online community and access our free programmes and trainings, which help you develop the skills to take action. You can also find resources on our website.

If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast... well, you know what to do.

This show was brought to you by Force of Nature and OneFinePlay. From OneFinePlay, Kasra Firouzyar is the editor and producer. Connor Foley is the producer and researcher. From Force of Nature, I’m your host, Clover Hogan, and this season would not be possible without Meg Stillwell and Isabel Flynn.